The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

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The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby Douggg on Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:00 pm

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Israel, the nation you see right now reformed on May 14, 1948, is not going to become Christians until she is in the time of Jacob's troubles. That the pain. But pain normally precludes child birth, not after. That alludes to the fact that Jesus was born to Israel - but she rejected him back then. The pain that Israel is going to suffer is during the forthcoming great tribulation - that's when she will embrace Jesus as her Lord, King, and Savior. To become Children of God.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Who hath heard such a thing? That's giving birth to the child, but having the pains afterward. And a nation born in a day? Born at once?

Isaiah 66:7-8 is telling when Zion will become children of God, Christians - it will be to the nation born in one day. That's Israel reborn as a nation in one day, May 14, 1948. "Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?" That's the parable of the fig tree. Israel is the fig tree, came forth in one day.

A fig tree is a plant coming forth from the earth. Who had ever heard of the earth bringing forth a tree in one day? It is something unheard of, unless one considers that the parable of the fig tree with the fig tree being Israel. Which the nation of Israel was born at once in one day - May 14, 1948.


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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:52 pm

Hey Doug I sent you a PM regarding this topic

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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby Douggg on Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:49 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Hey Doug I sent you a PM regarding this topic

RT


I PM'd you back.. :mrgreen:
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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:53 pm

Doug, just a little different view- while Israel declared independence in 1948, the country was not really born in a day as Isa 66 describes. Israel declared independence in 1 day but it took years to regather people to the land and rebuild cities, etc, Israel was not birthed in 1 day or brought forth in a moment as Isa 66 describes. The US declared independence in 1 day but the nation was not birthed in a day. Considering the logistics of gathering and building how is it possible for any nation be born in a day or be brought forth in a moment?

The context of Isa 66 appears to be consistent with armageddon- 'for with fire and with his sword the Lord will execute judgement upon all men...I..am about to come and gather all nations...', and the millenium. The birth of Israel in a moment is associated with the time of aramgeddon when Jesus returns.

Jer 30-31 describes the time of Jacob's trouble associated with birthpangs aand appears also to be more consistent with the time of Jesus' return and the millenium- 'In that day...I will break the yolks off their necks.... they will serve the Lord their God and David their king...', David being a reference to Jesus, the King and ruler of Israel.

In Matt 24 Jesus describes events prior to the AOD as being the beginning of birthpangs. It would then follow that the birthpangs result in the birthing of something after the AOD. From Isa 66 and Jer 30 it would appear that the 'birthing' that occurs after the AOD is the birthing of Israel at the time of armageddon when Jesus returns.

And it is at the time of Jesus' return that the impossible occurs, a nation is born in a day and brought forth in a moment. It is at the time of Jesus' return at armageddon the Israel looks upon the 'One who was pierced' and mourns, and a spirit of grace is poured out on the entire nation of Israel, the nation receives Christ and is 'born again' in 1 day, an entire nation is rebirthed in Christ in a moment.

The birth of a nation in a moment in the context of armageddon as described in Isa 66 is most consistent with Israel being 'born again' in Christ at His return. The 'birthpangs' described by Jesus in Matt 24 the result in the birth at armageddon would then most likely be the events that drive Israel to return to the Lord.
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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:12 pm

Doug, i would have a little different view on the identity of the Fig Tree in scripture. According to Isa 5 Israel is the vineyard-'The vineyard of the Lord Almighty is the house of Israel...' Isa 1 describes something else as being in the vineyard- 'The daughter of Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard....like a city under seige..'

The city that is in the vineyard is Jerusalem, and there are passages that suggest that it is Jerusalem that is the fig tree. In Mark 11, while on his way to Jerusalem, Jesus cursed a fig tree because it had no fruit. Later on the way out of Jerusalem the disciples pointed out that the fig tree had withered and Jesus began a discussion about faith in God. Jesus may have been linking Jerusalem to the fig tree as they did not have faith and would reject Him and be cursed.

Also in Luke 13 Jesus discussed the need for those in Jerusalem to repent and gave the parable of a man who had a fig tree in his vineyard which did not produce fruit. The man that owned the fig tree told another man caring for the fig tree that it had not produced fruit for 3 years and should be cut down. The man caring for the fig tree asked to give the tree 1 more year to produce fruit.

The owner of the fig tree would appear to be the Father, the one who took care of the fig tree would appear to be Jesus. The 3 years would appear consistent with the time of Jesus' ministry, with the 4th year being the last 1/2 before the crucifixion. The fig tree would then be Jerusalem, who needed to repent and produce fruit.

Israel is the vineyard, Jerusalem is the fig tree in the vineyard, the fig tree is part of Israel but it is not the nation of Israel. In Matt 24 the reference to the fig tree in bloom may be a reference to Jerusalem, which began to bloom in 1967.
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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:40 am

1whowaits wrote:<snip>

The owner of the fig tree would appear to be the Father, the one who took care of the fig tree would appear to be Jesus. The 3 years would appear consistent with the time of Jesus' ministry, with the 4th year being the last 1/2 before the crucifixion. The fig tree would then be Jerusalem, who needed to repent and produce fruit.

Israel is the vineyard, Jerusalem is the fig tree in the vineyard, the fig tree is part of Israel but it is not the nation of Israel. In Matt 24 the reference to the fig tree in bloom may be a reference to Jerusalem, which began to bloom in 1967.


May I be so bold as to suggest that Jesus suggest in the parable that the tree be left for three ages after which time, if it is baring no fruit, that then it be cut down and burned. From the time of Jesus till the Fig Tree must bear fruit is three ages/seasons with the Millennium Age being the Summer Season in which one would expect to see some fruit on the Fig Tree.

It is just a thought.

Shalom

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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:34 am

The fig tree is not a reference to Israel's political rebirth, if it is a reference to Israel it all or Jerusalem for that matter, it is a reference to it's spiritual rebirth. However the parable of the fig tree, merely points out that the signs that precede Christ's return will be like the signs of a spring fig tree which when they appear let us know that summer is near. When you see the signs of spring you know the harvest is near, when you see the signs pointed out in Matthew, then you know that the Lord's return is near. The point of the parable being- be ready.

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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:42 pm

Jay, not sure what you mean, which ages are you referring to?

RT, i think there might be a bit more to the fig tree reference in Matt 24. From the previous passages it appears that Jesus was looking for fruit from the fig tree which would be repentance and faith. Matt 24 refers to the leaves coming forth from the fig tree showing summer is near, which would be the time before fruit appears, before repentance and faith. The spiritual rebirth of Israel occurs at armageddon, so the fig tree of Matt 24 would likely be a reference to Jerusalem/Israel prior to armageddon, otherwise fruit would be present.

The fig tree of Matt 24 could just be an example of signs coming to fruition, but then Jesus says this generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled. It appears that He is connecting 'this generation' to the fig tree, which would suggest that there is more than one meaning to the fig tree. If Jesus were using the fig tree only as an example of multiple signs coming together they why refer to the end and immediately to 'this generation' unless there is an additional meaning?
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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:59 pm

When I recounted the Parable of the barren fig tree in my previous post I did not read the text before I posted. Perhaps I should have, so to establish the context of what i had written. To clarify the context that i was thinking of I will quote it below: -

Luke 13:1-9: - There were some present at that very time who told him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered thus? I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Silo'am fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

And he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. And he said to the vinedresser, 'Lo, these three years/ages {étee} I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down; why should it use up the ground?' And he answered him, 'Let it alone, sir, this year {étos} also, till I dig about it and put on manure. And if it bears fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'"


Shalom

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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:45 pm

Jay, from the context of the passage for the need of repentance in Jerusalem, it appears more likely that the passage refers to the years of Jesus' ministry vs looking for repentance in Jerusalem for 3 ages (Jerusalem hadn't been around for 3 ages).
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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:18 pm

1whowaits wrote:Jay, not sure what you mean, which ages are you referring to?

RT, i think there might be a bit more to the fig tree reference in Matt 24. From the previous passages it appears that Jesus was looking for fruit from the fig tree which would be repentance and faith. Matt 24 refers to the leaves coming forth from the fig tree showing summer is near, which would be the time before fruit appears, before repentance and faith. The spiritual rebirth of Israel occurs at armageddon, so the fig tree of Matt 24 would likely be a reference to Jerusalem/Israel prior to armageddon, otherwise fruit would be present.

The fig tree of Matt 24 could just be an example of signs coming to fruition, but then Jesus says this generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled. It appears that He is connecting 'this generation' to the fig tree, which would suggest that there is more than one meaning to the fig tree. If Jesus were using the fig tree only as an example of multiple signs coming together they why refer to the end and immediately to 'this generation' unless there is an additional meaning?


Perhaps, but again Jesus curses the fig tree because it has failed to bring forth fruit. As you say repentance and faith, that is not political rebirth but rather indicates a spiritual rebirth. Which as you say happens just prior to armageddon.

However there is something interesting to know about fig trees. They have two seasons, The first ripe figs appear in late spring/ early summer, and are harvested around June, these figs are produced on the previous year’s growth and are not as sweet or as numerous as the fruit that is produced in the second crop in late summer on the new growth which are harvested in late summer beginning around August and lasting into the fall until October. Unlike other fruit figs do not ripen after picking so must be allowed to fully ripen on the tree. Their fruit is easily damaged and must be carefully picked to avoid bruising. I would suggest that the first harvest may represent the 144,000, and in fact Jesus calls them "firstfruits". While the second harvest might represent the rest of Israel.

Anyway, there are different meanings for the word "generation" clearly Jesus was not saying that His audience at that time was that generation. So it would have to mean something else, either a future group of people alive at the time when these events happen or a specific group of people having the same genealogy or heritage (Jews) or it can also refer to an age. I have no idea which is correct, perhaps they all are, if I had to guess I would say it is probably referring to the Jewish race, that will not pass away. Note He says heaven and earth will pass away but His word will not. It is the Jews that will be the primary occupants of Millennial Jerusalem, where they will live as mortals until the heavens and earth pass away. Then those Jews will be assimilated into New Jerusalem as immortals.

Jeremiah 31:31-36
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The Lord of hosts is His name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the Lord,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”


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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:39 pm

RT, my point was that if the fig tree referred to the spiritual rebirth of Israel only, there there should be fruit on the tree representing repentance, and yet no fruit is described. Without the fruit the tree would then represent a physical rebirth, and again Jesus states that only the leaves have come forth, He does not describe the fruit, which we know will come when He returns at armageddon.

Also in the passages described Jesus does not explain the meaning of the parable of the man caring for the fig tree for 4 years, He just prefaces the parable with a statement about repentance to those in Jerusalem. Usually Jesus explains what He means by the parable, at least to the disciples, but this one He chooses to leave obscure, why would that be?

Also after cursing the fig tree on the way to Jerusalem, on His way back from Jerusalem, the disciples point out the withered fig tree to Jesus who does not explain why He cursed the tree, only that faith is needed. why no explanation?

And in Matt 24 Jesus mentions the fig tree along with the statement about a generation not passing but does not state exactly what He was referring to.

This would suggest that there is supposed to be some mystery regarding the fig tree, a mystery that apparently we are supposed to consider and figure out.

If the fig tree is indeed Jerusalem, and a generation is a known period of time, we should then have a time by which the fig tree should bring forth fruit.
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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:14 am

1whowaits wrote:Jay, from the context of the passage for the need of repentance in Jerusalem, it appears more likely that the passage refers to the years of Jesus' ministry vs looking for repentance in Jerusalem for 3 ages (Jerusalem hadn't been around for 3 ages).


1whowaits,

You have made a statement that the parable I quoted above could not be referring to a period of three ages. However, may I point out that we are nearing the point in the life of Jerusalem from when King David captured the city early in his reign and then set about beginning to gather the means for the building of the Temple before he died and which his son Solomon finished and dedicated in the 22nd year of his reign that is approaching that three age period.

With regards to your comments that the word "generation' could be a misleading translation both in the OT and the NT, I agree with your comment. The word used in the original language which has been translated into English as "generation" may be better understood if it had been translated as "age." Genesis 15:16 is one good example which points to the 1948 return of some of Abraham's descendants to the land. The question that has to be solved though is just how long a "generation”/age is within mans' timeframe of reference. It is my view that within God's timeframe of reference, that it has the duration of a "day" but that this within man's timeframe of reference is a "little while" longer than the 1,000 years that Satan occupies the bottomless pit during the Millennium Age.

This is just one of the reasons that Ussher's Chronology of the Old Testament is flawed because he based his premise that a "day of the Lord" was precisely 1,000 years and ignored the "little while" tacked on in the Book of Revelation. Ussher also got a number of other "Biblical facts" wrong in his Chronology. Sadly many others have based their "miss understanding" of God's Chronology of his timeframe for the redemption of mankind on Ussher's flawed Chronology and as such have established their stray houses on a sandy foundation.

As such the reference to the word “generation” in Matthew 24 provides the wrong conclusion as to when the Millennium Age begins and all of Israel is redeemed. As such, we are look for the occurrence of this event to happen too soon and that perhaps it is still around another 30 or so years into our future. Perhaps the parable of the Fig Tree in Matthew 24 does provide us with a valuable clue as to when we can expect the redemption of Israel to occur. But then do we have that understanding.

Shalom

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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:42 am

Hi 1whowaits,

I would agree that there will be a political rebirth of Israel and Jerusalem along side the spiritual rebirth. I do not believe it is the political rebirth that resulted from WW2 though. But Israel and in particular Jerusalem, will be the political theocratic center of the earth during the Millennial reign. I personally believe that Israel will again be scattered during the tribulation, when those in Judea flee at the AOD and also according to Zechariah 14:2 half of the city will go into exile.

That the fig tree has not born figs yet doesn't mean it won't, it only means that the time for it to bear fruit is near at hand. That's why we are told to be ready, because when these things BEGIN to happen (Luke's version) we know the return of the Lord is coming soon. That is the fig tree beginning to send forth its leaves in spring, it is likened to seeing the signs begin to take place. This generation- those alive who see these events take place will not pass away until the events are completed. They will live to see the fig tree bear fruit. ( I tend to believe they will be its fruit)They will live to see Christ's return and Israel's spiritual and political restoration. These can only be those Jews who will be rescued from Mystery Babylon, and those who flee Judea at the AOD, because we know that the unfaithful will be cut off, we also know they will be "protected" in the wilderness (Rev 12) but others who will refuse to take the mark will die as martyrs, so they can't be that generation who will not pass away.

Ask yourself and seek the scriptures to see who it is that remains on earth to inhabit Jerusalem during the millennial reign and you will know who that generation is. Who among the "fig tree" will live to see the Lord's return? Because the scripture says:

Luke 21:32
32 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.

Matthew 24:34
34 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


ALL THESE THINGS- would include the return of the Lord and therefore "this generation" will be alive to witness it.

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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:51 pm

RT

You have quoted two passages which talks about "this generation" but if the "fallible" English translation is wrong because the Greek text also has the expressed understanding of the Gospel writers based on their miss understanding of what has been translated as "generation" in the OT, then we are looking at these two verses wrongly.

If the Parable of the Fig tree in both Luke 21 and Matthew 24 is a sign for when the "Millennium"/last Age is to begin, then if we substitute the word "age" for "generation" into both of these verses, then they both read this way: -

“Truly I say to you, this "{last} age" will not pass away until all things take place.


If you read what is to take place in the verses before this verse in both passages, then the wars and rumours of wars, and the killing of the saints etc. can describe what will take place at the end of the Millennium Age during the period of the "little while" when the AOD will enter Jerusalem to claim his "kingdom" and crown as ruler of the earth. Satan's judgement, and dispatching into the Lake of Fire, heralds the beginning of the end of the Millennium Age. Then the Son of Man will come to Judge the peoples of the earth. Now the Lamb has been sacrificed for the Sins of the world and a "goat" must be found so that all of the "sins" of the people can be placed on the "goat" before it is sent out into the "wilderness."

The wilderness in this case will be the Lake of Fire.

Then the earth and all the people that remain will have received their redemption.

Shalom

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Re: The parable of the fig tree = Isaiah 66:7-8

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:33 pm

RT, i would agree that the fig tree would appear to be those Jews who are present when Jesus returns and who accept Christ are are 'born again'. They are the 1/3 faithful remnant that survives until the Lord's return, and according to Zech 12 and 14 Jesus comes to rescue these Jews and they are in Jerusalem.

So the fig tree would be those Jews in Jerusalem, the 1/3 faithful remnant who come to faith in Christ, who are reborn when Jesus comes to rescue them in Jerusalem. The fig tree would refer to Jerusalem, those who survive and accept Christ are in Jerusalem, when the fig tree is referred to Jerusalem is in view rather than the nation of Israel.

Jesus refers to 'all these things' which would include all He had previously described including the beginning of birthpangs. As the 'birth' is the rebirth of the faithful remnant in Jerusalem, the 'birthpangs' would appear to be those events which drive the faithful remnant in Jerusalem to accept Jesus and be 'reborn'.

The birthpangs can then fall outside of the time of the 70th week, nation rising against nation does not necessarily refer to the 70th week but could occur prior to that period. If those in Jerusalem are the ones who are 'birthed', then a birthpang could refer to the taking of Jerusalem in 1967, at a time when nations rose against Israel.

My point being that a generation could refer to the time period, and also the Jews that eventually accept Christ at armageddon, that begins at the time Jerusalem is reformed until the time Jesus returns at armageddon. which would suggest that we coexist with that generation.

The popular view is that the fig tree refers to Israel and the generation that began in 1948, while it may instead be that the fig tree refers to Jerusalem, and those within it, which reformed in 1967. This could then give a later approximate time period within which Jesus would return, which could explain why there is some mystery as to the identity of the fig tree.
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