Women Pastors

the place to ask general questions not prophecy related

Women Pastors

Postby Savedbygraceonly on Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:11 pm

Hello and God bless everybody.

I would just like to ask opinions on the subject of women ministers.

Since I have re-dedicated myself back to God in January I was praying often for the Lord to lead me to a church, well in my town a good Spirit filled, all the word believing church is now a rarity I had found, so anyway
a church not far from me which HAD been a baptist church had been renovated and become a mixed church of Anglican ( church of England) and Baptist, which I have never heard of before

Anyway my son goes to it, in to the weekly youth group and he was encouraging me to go to that one, so after weeks of prayer I decided to go and ( now I will come to the moral of this message) I have found that the person with the authority in the Church is an ordained woman.

So my question is

what do you think of this and what would you do in my position
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I believe that we should stick to scripture ALL the time and the best we can do , we may fail in some areas but I believe that this area can be obeyed...do you agree?

Don`t get me wrong this lady minister is a lovely person and a sister in the Lord who say`s she is Baptized in the Holy Spirit and speaks in tongues (which I have seen no evidence of this yet) or I have not seen any evidence of this at all in this Church.

You see when I gave my life to Christ I was born again into a Pentecostal Church and we all know that Pentecostal`s believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts.

Well anyway I would be very grateful for some feedback on this subject and I apologize if there is already a link on this subject but I cannot find it.

Thank you and I also apologize if I may seem judgemental on this question, it is not my aim, I only want to do the word of the Lord to my best ability, it is a hard enough question to ask anyway!

:answerthequestion:

God bless you.
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Do not love the world or the things in the world.
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Postby Be still on Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:26 pm

Here's something to get you started ... http://www.gotquestions.org/women-pastors.html
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Postby tsth on Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:27 pm

I tend to agree with what is taught in the Scrptures in regard to a woman being in authority over a man, with regard to leadership position in the church.........it is NOT to be practiced in the church.

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Postby Nocturne on Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:01 pm

I believe that women have an incredibly important role.

However, i don't think that is a teaching or authority role in the church.

Can women do many things better than men? Of course they can.

I don't think it's as much a matter of 'can they' as it is a matter of 'should they'.

Stick to what the bible says, and throw out all that 'it was the culture at the time of writing' garbage out the window.

The same reasoning is made to excuse almost every type of sin 'it was their culture at the time.

/vomit


Feminism is rooted in Satanism. Stay away from it.

Feminism is an attempt to change God's plan, and what God has ordered. Although feminism may not be directly related to women pastors, I don't think it's a far leap.
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Postby Blessings2U on Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:03 pm

my mother in law is a pastor for the church of the brethren. her daughter and their family go to a baptist church, as does our family. the baptist stick to scripture on this...no women pastors. they can lead choir, bible studies and stuff. but they are not to be in authority over men. we just agree to disagree on this subject with my mother in law. we just don't discuss it. she does alot for the church and if it wasn't for her, there would probably be no church in their little town. i have ALOT of respect for her...we just don't discuss that topic of religion.

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Hey

Postby njfishwatchTurkey&Isr on Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:09 pm

savedbygraceonly,

welcome to the board!

My advice would be to study Scripture in regards to "pastor" and see what you come up with. Is today's position of pastor even Scriptural?
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Postby mommyjen on Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:49 pm

savedbygraceonly,

welcome to the board!

My advice would be to study Scripture in regards to "pastor" and see what you come up with. Is today's position of pastor even Scriptural?


ditto! I was going to post that earlier- teehee!
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Postby David L on Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:34 pm

This subject is one I have battled with myself. The church I attend has a male pastor who is head over the church but his wife is a pastor as well and exercises authority over men as the 'associate pastor.'

Although I do not agree with the position taken at my church with regards to women being raised up to be pastor's, I gave my life to the Lord there; and I believe I am called to serve there.

The best advice I can give is that I have come to peace with myself by 'submitting one to another' as a christian to another christian rather than a man servant to a woman pastor and God has blessed me.
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Postby Savedbygraceonly on Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:43 am

Thank you everybody so far for these opinions :itsgood:

It seems like from what I can understand women do take roles in a church, but not the HEAD/LEAD role.It seems that the ultimate head of a church should be male as in the divine order of things...i.e

Adam created first.etc.

As far as studying scripture to see if Pastor is scriptural, well the bible say`s in Ephesians 4:11,12.

11. And he gave some to be apostles, some prophets,some evangelists, and some PASTORS and teachers,
12. for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

So Yes, Pastors are for today or we may as well take all the other ministries away as well and Christ himself instituted these ministries it say`s.

As far as women go then in being in authority, I am leaning towards what Blessings2U say`s, if they can take this stand then maybe I should as well.

So thank you all anyway and may God greatly bless you all for your help.
1 John 2:15

Do not love the world or the things in the world.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:27 pm

You have to really want to understand the correct meaning of 1 Tim. 2 to wade through this, but I trust those who are still open to learning will be blessed and set free by it.

Literal Renderings of Texts of Contention-- 1 Tim. 2.8-15

"I wish then men to pray in all places, lifting up holy hands without anger and argument, and likewise women in tasteful dress with modesty and sobriety adorning themselves not with plaited hair with gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but what is fitting for women professing to worship God with good works. A woman should learn in quietness in all submission, but to teach I am not permitting women nor to domineer over men, but rather to be in quietness. For Adam was formed first, only then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman being truly deceived fell into transgression. But she may be saved through (the) Childbearing, if they remain in faith and love and holiness with sobriety/modesty."

Few texts have been more bitterly debated in the recent Christian culture wars over the roles of women in the church than 1 Tim. 2.8-15. This being the case I think all would agree that a less interpretitive and more literal rendering might help settle some questions at least. Of course in the translation of any much debated text very careful attention must be paid to the immediate literary context. Nowhere is that more obviously the case with these verses, which some have even called a text of terror.

What I would stress at the outset is that Paul is correcting problems in worship--- correcting both men and women as is perfectly clear from vs. 8 where he tells the men to not dispute or get angry but rather to start praying. He then corrects women in several particulars. I would stress then that the correction of an abuse of a privilege is not the same as the ruling out of a proper use of a privilege, in this case the privilege of speaking in worship or even teaching. Paul is not laying down first principles here, he is correcting an existing problem, and presumably wherever and whenever he found a similar problem he would do so again, whoever it might involve.

Three things are key here: 1) the verb 'authentein' in vs. 12 occurs only once in the NT-- just here. The verb is a strong one, and in my commentary which comes out in the fall I give instances of where it can be used to mean 'to domineer' 'to usurp authority over', but it also has the sense of 'to exercise authority over' as well. What determines the translation is of course the context--- is the context one where a problematic use of power or authority is at issue? If the answer is yes, then the translation is normally 'to usurp authority over' or 'to domineer'. It refers to an illegitimate use of power or authority. The importance of this fact is clear. Paul is not talking about occasions or instances where it is perfectly proper for women to teach or exercise authority over men, something he will mention elsewhere, for example in Rom. 16.

The issue here in Ephesus is that there are some women who are seeking to teach or take authority over men, without first being quiet and learning about their faith. This is inappropriate of course. 2) nothing is said here about women being subordinate to men. What vs. 11 speaks about is learning quietly and so being in submission to the teaching and what is being required of the listener. One can say much the same about 1 Cor. 14.33b-36. Nothing is said there about women submitting to men.

Scholars have often pondered what in the world Paul is referring to in 1 Cor. 14.34 when he says women are to be silent as even the Law says'. Where exactly does the OT law say that? The answer is nowhere. But what is said in various places is that everyone in worship should be silent in the presence of those who are speaking the Word of God, which is clearly the context in this Corinthians passage--- "let all mortal flesh keep silence. The Lord is in his holy temple and will speak". This is actually a sort of exhortation that was common in all kinds of ancient worship, including the pagan worship many Corinthians had been previously part of. For example, the priest would cry out 'silence' (tacit) as the sacrifice was about to be offered and the blood would be poured out and prayers would go up.

In short, 1 Tim. 2 is talking about silence and submission in the presence of authoritative teaching and teachers. One can understand why high status Gentile women in Ephesus might think they could immediately teach in their new chosen religion:

1) women were frequently priestesses and prophetesses in the religion they had come from;

2) if one already had an education, including some education in public speaking (rhetoric) one assumed that one was equipped to go ahead and speak or even teach, especially teach those less literate and of lesser social status. Notice that Paul has restricted what these women are to wear in worship. Clearly enough, he is correcting high status women who actually had fine clothes and jewels to wear, and could come to worship with high coiffed hair. It is these sorts of women he has in mind in 1 Tim. 2;

3) the verb here is 'I am not (now) permitting'. As Philip Payne has shown, there is not a single instance of the use of this verb in Greek literature where this form means " I am permanently banning women from teaching etc.' This is a verb which implies a ban for a specific period of time until the problem is remedied or the proper conditions are met for women having learned enough to be able to teach. Paul could have said "I will never permit women to teach..." but he did not, and for a good reason. He is correcting a problem;

4) the use of the example from Genesis presupposes that Timothy knows his Bible. In particular he knows the following--- that in the original creation story, only Adam is alive when the instruction is given not to eat of the tree. Early Jewish teachers then assumed that this meant Adam had taught Eve about the ban, but clearly enough he had not instructed her well enough, since she goes on to say to the snake that they were not even to touch the fruit. It is interesting that the verb deceived here is used elsewhere in Paul to once again refer to this story (see 2 Cor. 11.3). What does 'deceived' mean here? It is not a comment about the woman's nature or naivete, but rather about her lack of adequate teaching. A person not properly instructed is much more easily deceived. Such was the case with Eve, and so, Paul implies in 1 Tim. 2 such is the case with these high status women who are new converts, but who think they can immediately instruct others including men;

5) the verb 'saved' in vs. 15 probably should not be rendered 'kept safe' as Paul uses another Greek term for that elsewhere. 'Sodso' is the normal term for 'saved' in a spiritual sense So then is Paul now an advocate of 'justification by grace through baby making' for women? Certainly not. One has to pay careful attention to my next point.

6) The phrase in question says 'the childbearing' referring to a particular one, and there is the odd toggling in the Greek between the singular childbearing and the 'they' who are saved through this. Last I checked multiple women cannot give birth to a single child. This means Paul is referring to a particular childbearing-- namely the birth of Jesus through Mary. Mary is seen as Eve in reverse. Just as Eve disobeyed and the fall ensued, Mary consented to God's plan and salvation came through her into our world. The curse on us all, including the curse on women was reversed in Mary. I would add that we must remember that the original curse involved these words--- 'your desire will be for your husband and he will Lord it over you'. To love and to cherish has been twisted into to desire and to dominate. In other words, both lust and the domineering of men over women are a result of the fall, which Jesus, coming through Mary came to reverse!

You will notice that all of this interpretation comes after the fact. You might never deduce some of this simply from reading the mere words in the passage above. Unless the text is studied in its historical literary, rhetorical, religious etc. contexts we are bound to distort its meaning and misuse it. A text without a context is just a pretext for whatever you want it to mean.

The only proper hedge against misuse of such controversial texts like this is careful detailed study of the text in its immediate context, in the context of the Pastorals (noting for example how elsewhere in these documents Paul talks about older women who are mature Christians doing some teaching), in the context of Paul's letters in general, and in the context of Ephesus and the social world to which these words were written.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:34 pm

The Problem Passage

Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression (1 Tim. 2:11-14).

Surely Paul knew of Miriam, Deborah, Huldah and Anna, four prophetesses who spoke on God’s behalf to men and women, effectively teaching them God’s will. Surely he knew that Deborah, a judge over Israel, exercised some degree of authority over men and women.

Surely he knew that God had poured out His Spirit on the day of Pentecost, partially fulfilling Joel’s prophecy of the last days when God would pour out his Spirit on all flesh so that sons and daughters would prophesy the word of God.

Surely he knew that Jesus commissioned some women to take a message from Him to His male apostles.

Surely he knew of his own words of approval, written to the Corinthian church, regarding women praying and prophesying during church gatherings.

Surely he remembered that he had told the Corinthians that any one of them might receive a teaching to share with the body from the Holy Spirit (see 1 Cor. 14:26).
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Postby Savedbygraceonly on Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:00 pm

Thank you and I will have to study this.

:humm:
1 John 2:15

Do not love the world or the things in the world.
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Postby ozell on Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:26 pm

hi Savedbygraceonly,

I would like to add that upon reading the bible you will not come across one female Priest of God. You will find female false Priest like the notorious Jezebel.

You will find female prophets of God in scripture.

There is a difference between a prophet and a Priest.

just for the record I agree will the previous posters. Female priest teach the bible more accurate than men. I have also observed that women that have there head covered have a better understanding in the word of God than men or women who have there head uncovered.


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