Another question re: Catholics & Salvation

[Abiding in His Word]

I hope I've put this question in the right forum......<br>
<br>
I've been thinking lately a lot about various scriptures that made me wonder about Catholics and their salvation. I know we put a lot of info in the Apostacy Forum about their false beliefs; i.e. Mary, sacraments, the Eucharist, etc. But if you take these verses at face value, wouldn't they insure the salvation of Catholics regardless of the other false teachings? Just trying to figure it out.<br>
<br>
<br>
Luk 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, <br>
Luk 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting. <br>
<br>
Might this be true of nuns and priests?<br>
<br>
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? <br>
Act 16:31 And they said, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
Most every Catholic does believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, right?<br>
<br>
<br>
Rom 10:9 That if thou <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
Catholics definitely believe that Jesus died and was resurrected. They even set aside a special day to celebrate the Ascension of Jesus.<br>
<br>
Any thoughts? <br>
<br>
BTW, no need to post lots of the false beliefs, most have already been posted many times and most of us are fully aware of them. I'd just like to focus on the possibility of their salvation apart from those false teachings .....please......and thank you......<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :scared --><img src=http://fool.exler.ru/sm/str.gif ALT=":scared"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p><!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>The LORD is near the brokenhearted; He saves those crushed in spirit.<br>
Psalm 34:18</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--></p><i></i>

[panda]

I feel that the people who truly believe in Jesus, and feel in their heart that they are doing His will, then it would seem that that would be enough for them to be saved, however I also feel strongly that if only Catholic people would take the time to actually READ their bibles..or a non-catholic bible rather, that they would see how false the Catholic religion is, and come out of her. <p></p><i></i>

[Be still]

I've been thinking about this topic lately myself. When I was Catholic, I was saved, in a couch potato like way. No passion about God but I did believe. After leaving the Catholic Church and joining a "real" church that studies THE BIBLE, I'm on fire! I can feel the Holy Spirit in me, guiding me. Can't say I felt that while Catholic. I would describe it more like a conscience. I think you get out of your faith what you put into it. The Priests, Brothers, Nuns, Sisters are a hinderance. They block the way to the real truth, at least they did for me. I was in a Catholic Church last week and after having been removed from it for so long I couldn't believe the things I was seeing and hearing. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :scared --><img src=http://fool.exler.ru/sm/str.gif ALT=":scared"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> I felt sad for them. <!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :verysad --><img src=http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sad/sad0122.gif ALT=":verysad"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <p>Karen<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:maroon;">"Be still, and know that I am God! I am exalted among the nations, I am exalted in the earth." Psalm 46:10</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=bestill@herbsdiscussionboard>Be still</A>  <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y106/bestill/newestsheep.gif" BORDER=0> at: 9/18/05 1:53 pm<br></i>

[Tspark]

I've been reading about the reformation lately, really good series, and I'm amazed at the way things were back then<br>
<br>
Those held in bondage by the church...I feel pity for people....to never know that you can go to God yourself to receive repentance.... never know that there is no one between you and Jesus....not a priest, not a pope/vicar...<br>
<br>
It is a hard thing to think of which....so many could be led in this error, for so long without the Holy Spirit takng action..<br>
<br>
but just as staggering is the thought of so many pagans being blinded by the god of this world.<br>
<br>
in james it is written:<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:blue;">Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--><br>
<br>
Is it possible to believe and be Lost? And what if someone preaches a different Jesus and we believe in a Different Jesus.<br>
<br>
A Jesus that requires you to go to a church...and confess your sins to a man, to grant you a penance to do, who will talk to Jesus for you for repentance and to receive a remission of sins....<br>
<br>
Of course there is this other Jesus, one that was preached by Paul and the other Apostles, who did all this for us..<br>
who we can approach ourselves and have a personal relationship with..... who reigns supremely over his kingdom...which is currently in the hearts of his people, not needing a 'Vicar' on earth to let us know his will.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:blue;">Mat 24:5 <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>For many shall come in my name</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <br>
<br>
could be seen as "I am <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>the vicar of</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> CHRIST.."<br>
<br>
<br>
just some thoughts...I pray for all.<br>
<br>
In Christ<br>
Tom <p>I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness....</p><i></i>

[DE438]

Revelation 14:9,10 give warning Not to worship the beast or its Image. The Beast (Rev. 13:1) is Catholic Christianity under Papacy. Its Image is the Church of England and its cohorts.<br>
<br>
Revelation 18:4 - Calls all of the Lord's people to come out of her, Babylon, meaning Confusion. Babylon is Christendom. Why do you need an organized religion? You don't! Judgment is between you and Jesus, the org. won't be around when you need it. Being in the org. is a strike against you.<br>
<br>
Salvation is free. Jesus made it so by paying the ransom price for Adam. There are two resurrections. <br>
Acts 24:15b- "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just (saints) and unjust (sinners).<br>
<br>
John 5:25-29<br>
29: "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection by judgments."<br>
The sinners will be revived here on earth and will be tested and judged by their works then as to their worthiness of eternal life. The earth abideth forever. (Ecclesiastes 1:4)<br>
This means that the Catholics will have salvation, either as saints or as sinners. But getting out of organized religion is the proper thing to do. Get out now!<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[holmesr]

<!--EZCODE ITALIC START--><em>Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. <br>
<br>
could be seen as "I am the vicar of CHRIST.."</em><!--EZCODE ITALIC END--><br>
<br>
No it cant...<br>
<br>
I don't agree. Jesus isn’t saying that someone will say that he is the vicar (Christ’s representation here on earth) But rather the Christ himself. No Pope has nor ever (at least I dont think so) will. <br>
I just looked up both terms in a dictionary of official catholic theology. Their view of the messiah is the same as ours. For the Pope (Vicar) to claim himself messiah he would be considered heretical by their own doctrine. Even according to them they are mutually exclusive. <br>
The term vicar was introduced much later into catholic theology. Christ is speaking of those who will say "I am the Messiah, I am the Christ." There have been plenty of those and there will be more, I’m sure. Cults abound, more and more as time goes on. Again Jesus is referring to those who claim the title of messiah.<br>
<br>
I am not a Catholic nor am I saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t have major problems. I’m just trying to keep us from stretching Jesus' words by making them apply to more than they do.<br>
<br>
Blessings,<br>
RH <br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[midway]

I think if you are going to blanket descriptions and say that only people who believe thus and so are saved, then you must also apply this to Protestant theology. If we point out all the problems with the Catholic church, lets take a moment and scour the depths of Protestantism. Forget the speck in their eye; lets get the plank out of our own first.<br>
<br>
The Word clearly states that those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. If you believe in your heart that Jesus was who He said He was He will save you. Period.<br>
<br>
I'm going to take a moment and address some of the stuff people have said.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I also feel strongly that if only Catholic people would take the time to actually READ their bibles..or a non-catholic bible rather, that they would see how false the Catholic religion is, and come out of her.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
The only difference between "their bible" and a "non-catholic bible" is the Apocrypha. Much to popular belief this isn't some heretical collection of writings. Much of it comes from the Intertestament Period. The only reason Martin Luther didn't have it included in the canon was for a simple reason: Jesus nor Paul seem to quote from it or allude to it. Does this make it heretical? NO! Jesus didn't quote from any of the books we read today but we still recommend them to our friends. There is actually a trend inside the Catholic church that encourages its adherents to read the Bible for themselves.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I've been thinking about this topic lately myself. When I was Catholic, I was saved, in a couch potato like way. No passion about God but I did believe. After leaving the Catholic Church and joining a "real" church that studies THE BIBLE, I'm on fire! I can feel the Holy Spirit in me, guiding me. Can't say I felt that while Catholic.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
I think there are thousands of Protestants who feel this same way about their current situation in their Protestant church.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Is it possible to believe and be Lost? And what if someone preaches a different Jesus and we believe in a Different Jesus.<br>
<br>
A Jesus that requires you to go to a church...and confess your sins to a man, to grant you a penance to do, who will talk to Jesus for you for repentance and to receive a remission of sins....<br>
<br>
Of course there is this other Jesus, one that was preached by Paul and the other Apostles, who did all this for us..<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
Catholic theology concerning the nature of Christ is the same as Protestant theology. Most of this theology was developed by St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. Their Jesus does not require them to do all of this stuff. Catholics choose too because they believe that it enables them to receive a greater amount of grace. Augustinian theology acknowledges different levels of sin. When one acknowledges original sin and different levels of sin (see all the concept of pergatory) there then needs to be a way to escape different levels of sin.<br>
<br>
Again since many Catholics are reading their Bibles you will find quite a few who don't think confession (penance) is necessary. I know several myself who are "Catholic" but they do not subscribe to many aspects of Augustinian/Aquinian theology.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>could be seen as "I am the vicar of CHRIST.."<br>
<br>
No it cant...<br>
<br>
I am not a Catholic nor am I saying that the Catholic Church doesn’t have major problems. I’m just trying to keep us from stretching Jesus' words by making them apply to more than they do.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
I agree. Again, if we are going to acknowledge the problems of the Catholic church lets not forget our own Protestant side as well. I agree we shouldn't "change the words" of the Bible to make it support our own opinion.<br>
<br>
Why don't we focus on loving people instead of withholding God's love until they agree with us? Instead of subdividing and labeling people as false and true how about we love people where they are at and help them to draw closer to God? <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=midway@herbsdiscussionboard>midway</A> at: 12/13/05 8:25 am<br></i>

[Abiding in His Word]

Lots of good thoughts here, but I'm still trying to get an answer to my original question. <br>
<br>
1)<br>
<br>
Luk 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,<br>
Luk 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Might this be true of nuns and priests?</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
2)<br>
<br>
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?<br>
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Most every Catholic does believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, right?</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
3)<br>
<br>
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Catholics definitely believe that Jesus died and was resurrected. They even set aside a special day to celebrate the Ascension of Jesus.</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
If Catholics meet these three criteria stated in the scripture, could they be saved? I realize that only Jesus knows the heart and this is a generalization of all Catholics, but it seems to me that many do meet the "requirements" for being saved. I also know that they have many distracting traditions that they adhere to. But once again, it seems to be based on the above scripture, they would be saved.<br>
<br>
Can anyone dispute the above 3 scriptures and the applied reasoning? <p>This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles. Psalm 34:6 </p><i></i>

[midway]

1) that passage is more about reassuring those who leave their family for the sake of Christ. You could make the argument it is for nuns and priests, but I think it would apply more for those who go to spread the Kingdom.<br>
<br>
2) Yes. Catholics believe on/in the Lord Jesus. There are some few cases where people worship Mary and give her too much attention. Again, I think this is not as widespread as many people would like you to think.<br>
<br>
3) I agree. I have done the same reasoning.<br>
<br>
I would say "yes, Catholics are saved." Jesus is the Truth. If you affirm the Truth then you are saved. They affirm the Truth as it is found in scripture. They do, as you point out, have some traditions that we think of as distracting, but they, none the less, still believe in Jesus as the Christ.<br>
<br>
I agree with your reasoning about 2 and 3. My only problem would lie in the interpretation of 1, as it does appear to be Jesus promising that those who leave wife, home, brothers, etc. for the work of the Kingdom will not fail to receive an award.<br>
<br>
I would like to applaud you for thinking through this on your own. Many people only believe what they are told to on this matter. Keep pursuing the truth and may our Lord bless your efforts at drawing ever closer to Him! <p></p><i></i>

[Tspark]

sorry all, like i said previously I've been reading a lot about the Reformation...and it may not be the Roman Catholic Church of today....but it was of the time, Sin was Sin Back then...and if you didn't confess it to a priest it was unrepented sin....if you didn't receive last rites...the gaping maws of hell was before you...unless someone could pay for you to get out.<br>
<br>
And if Jesus' Sacrifice didn't cleanse all your sins... then your following a differt Jesus plain and simple. <br>
<br>
if you feel you have to confess anything to a priest to obtain a clensing from it then your following a differt Jesus plain and simple. <br>
<br>
If you think that you can obtain an indulgence from a man to do a sin, then you are following a man that follows a different Jesus, hence you are following a different Jesus.<br>
<br>
If this man that you follow says he has the power to usher people from purgatory to heaven then you are following a man that follows a different Jesus, hence you are following a different Jesus.<br>
<br>
<br>
Now when it comes to Protestant churches...if we were to start rebuking and reproving all the errors in the churches we would have many more pages of problems than we have for the Catholics(Assuming we could get past their issue of following a different Jesus) because there are many splits and fractures in the Body.<br>
<br>
In Christ<br>
Tom <p>I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness....</p><i></i>

[Abiding in His Word]

<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Tspark</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>And if Jesus' Sacrifice didn't cleanse all your sins... then your following a differt Jesus plain and simple.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
Same Jesus, just a different path to Him. Not the correct path, granted, but the one they have been taught. Catholics do believe that Jesus died for all their sins.<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>if you feel you have to confess anything to a priest to obtain a clensing from it then your following a differt Jesus plain and simple.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
<br>
Again, same Jesus. I believe Jesus died for and cleansed me of sin, but I still confess sins when I commit them don't you? I know they are under the blood, but I still feel repentent for the wrong I do. The only difference is they have been taught to confess to a mediator. Not the right mediator, granted, but a penitent heart and attitude nevertheless.<br>
<br>
I guess my point is, I see the errors they have been taught - in fact I've experienced them firsthand. But rather than the critical attitude I normally hear (not from you personally necessarily), I feel extremely burdened for them to know the freedom from those bondages that comes with the truth of the Bible rather than those they have been taught.<br>
<br>
So bottom line is, the criticism has produced nothing but arguments and antagonism as I see it. But if they could hear the joy and peace and see the fruit of the spirit that other former catholics have found, it may very well produce the desired result of a searching heart.<br>
<br>
When I was a catholic, no one criticized my beliefs or practices. They just let me see that they had something I didn't - and I wanted it. And I searched for it. And I found it! Praise the Lord!<!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p>This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles. Psalm 34:6 </p><i></i>

[Tspark]

Abiding in His Word:<br>
<br>
Yes you are correct in that we do confess our sins to Jesus; a lot of times on daily basis.<br>
<br>
I guess I too hate how they(the Catholic's) have been taught<br>
<br>
Here is a question I would pose, though...who then is responsible for Salvation, is it the Priest,The pope, the Deacon, The Pastor.... No, it is a personal issue between us and Jesus..<br>
<br>
<!--EZCODE FONT START--><span style="color:blue;">Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>work out your own salvation with fear and trembling</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->.</span><!--EZCODE FONT END--> <br>
<br>
Just being taught that way...is one thing, continuing to live in error is another...<br>
<br>
If you follow someone to the exclusion of the truth the error lies in you.<br>
This is a Truth about one of their beliefs: That they can confess to the Priest and Gain Absolution of the Sin(s).<br>
<br>
Which Jesus has ever said that this is right? None correct? But Pope's through the Generations has decreed that he is the voice of God on earth so if he would lead us into error,ie. reverencing of the saints(ie worship)...also the holy mother...the question arises <br>
<br>
which Jesus Tells us to do this...hmmm....I guess <br>
<br>
The Same Jesus that put the Pope in Charge...Right?<br>
The Same Jesus that allows the Pope to Grant indulgences....<br>
The Same Jesus that Grants the Pope the power to "snatch" souls out of Purgatory/Hell....<br>
<br>
All The Powers listed above and more not listed, are said by Pope and various saints to have been Granted By Jesus...Again, Which Jesus? Where is it written? They are not granted by the Jesus Whom the apostle's preached.<br>
<br>
Hence It is a different Jesus, Just enough alike...but yet different, they use the Scripture to show it is the same Jesus...yet some how when you add on all the other stuff, not written in the scripture...It paints a different picture..<br>
<br>
If I'm Catholic..do I follow the Pope as the Vicar of Christ...the answer would be YES. So I want to worship the Jesus that the Pope follows/worships...<br>
<br>
<br>
In Christ<br>
Tom<br>
<p>I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness....</p><i></i>

[Abiding in His Word]

<!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>Tspark</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
Yep! Everything you state is correct - (here's the big BUT)<br>
it's the <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>reason</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> for those beliefs that causes my confusion about them. You see, (and I say this with no malice intended), they are the victims in a sense of indoctrination. Like a cult. I hope you know that I'm speaking in generalities here so we can agree that <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>not all</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--> applies here.<br>
<br>
Picture this scenario that existed for me as well as other catholics as I grew up - maybe different to some extent today.<br>
<br>
From infancy on the teaching begins. Then comes 8-12 yrs. of catholic education. This education includes prohibits even visiting non-catholic churches and non-catholic marriages. There's a very real isolation from those who might share the truth with them. The word "Bible" was never spoken of let alone studied or read. Nuns and Priests are constant conveyors of "truth" handed down from the Pope. The fear of eternal damnation always looms as the consequence of missing mass, eating meat on Friday, taking the Lord's name in vain, marrying outside the faith, or getting divorced. Then there many times is physical abuse, humiliation, and threats.<br>
<br>
This type of indoctrination requires de-programming! And not short-term de-programming. This is very similar, if not exactly, like a cult. <br>
<br>
They are bound to come up swinging when confronted with the truth (as we know it.) Especially if confronted in the from of an attack. This will only serve to create a defensive posture - not an open spirit or willingness to toss aside years of indoctrination easily.<br>
<br>
My question, then, is - is there a better way to reach them than to criticize and create long lists of errors that they have been indoctrinated with? <br>
<br>
1Pe 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>yet with gentleness and reverence; </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
Col 4:6 Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, <!--EZCODE BOLD START--><strong>so that you will know how you should respond to each person. </strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END--><br>
<br>
I do realize that each may have a responsibility to search out the truth for themselves, but I'm hoping that some on this board will try to understand how difficult it is to reach catholics and perhaps to approach the outreach differently.<br>
<br>
And I'm thinking outloud.....thanks for joining me and sharing your thoughts. Much appreciated!<!--EZCODE HR START--><hr /><!--EZCODE HR END--> <p>This poor man cried, and the LORD heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles. Psalm 34:6 </p><i></i>

[midway]

praise the Lord for good open minded conversation on this subject.. breath of fresh air.. <p></p><i></i>

[Tspark]

Abiding in His Word;<br>
<br>
Hey, I understand the situation you are talking about....Our outreach isn't that much different...I have a few friends that are Pagan....wiccan, witchcraft...fertility... etc... and their belief structure...has a trinity and runs a lot parallels with us...and in their mind it is close enough not matter to them.<br>
<br>
I know it is fruitless to actually attack their beliefs, they go on the defensive, mine is a really hard outreach....they don't hold to bible as religious authority...most of the time i only get to be an example, and when in a group they often make fun Christians....but every so often i get to tell why I am happy and they are not.<br>
<br>
Yet it often more is me praying that God's Will be done. Prayers for him to intercede and lift the veil that the god of this world is using to blind them...<br>
<br>
I have to go now, I post more later.<br>
<br>
In Christ<br>
Tom <p>I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness....</p><i></i>