Daniel 9:24-27

[Jay Ross]

Hello

perhaps we should only consider that Christ fulfilled the following portions of Daniel 9:24-27.

Daniel 9:24b and Daniel 9:26b being the only parts that can be said to required action by Christ.

Christ did not cause Daniels people to repent of their iniquities within the allotted 490 year time period. Verse 24a
Christ did not build or rebuild the temple and Jerusalem. Verse 25
Christ did not destroy Jerusalem, the temple or make the area around Jerusalem desolate until the end of the war in heaven.
Christ did not enter into a solemn covenant with many for seven years, or broke the solemn covenant. Verse 27

If this is the case then we cannot say that Christ fulfilled all of Daniel 9:24-27.

Shalom

[Exit40]

I have repeatedly requested clarification on this point, since it is one that Mr. Baldy and others of you use frequently, but I have never had explained.

It is my position that if you cannot back up your statement with scripture, you probably ought to quit using it as an argument.

Hi Ready1. There are many Scriptures in the New Testament that will answer your question. Some have already been posted here....

Heb 10:5-10 ¶ Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.

Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law),

then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

What do you think this means ?

God Bless You

David

[Ready1]

Hi Ready1. There are many Scriptures in the New Testament that will answer your question. Some have already been posted here....

Hi Exit40 I would like to reiterate what I originally said.

I would like for someone to share what they mean by this statement on a point-by-point basis.

What you have done is put a scripture forward without tying it to anything else and saying that it answers my question. It does not answer my question. What you need to know is that I am very, very dense and I do not see a correlation between this scripture and the one in Dan 9. So if you believe that there is a correlation, please explain how, either on a single-point basis or a point-by-point basis. That is what I need to be able to understand your position.

Heb 10:5 Therefore when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but You have prepared a body for Me.
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then I said, Lo, I come (in the volume of the Book it is written of Me) to do Your will, O God."
Heb 10:8 Above, when He said, "Sacrifice and offering, and burnt offerings and offering for sin You did not desire, neither did You have pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the Law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "Lo, I come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first so that He may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By this will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

What do you think this means ?

I know that this will be unsatisfactory, but I have always thought it meant exactly what it says. Do I believe that Jesus lived a sinless life? Yes. Do I believe that Jesus was once offered for the sin of the world? Yes. Do I believe that that includes me? Yes. Do I believe that the requirements of the Law ceased when Jesus fulfilled them. Yes. Do I believe that Jesus satisfied the requirements of God the Father as a substitute for my sin? Yes. Do I believe that Jesus came to the earth to do God's will? Yes. Do I believe that we are made holy by believing in the offering of Jesus one time forever? Yes. Do I believe that Jesus came to fulfill the Law and by fulfilling it usher in the age of grace and mercy? Yes. Do I believe that a man could be made holy by attempting to live the requirements of the Law? No. Do I believe that God desired burnt offerings and sacrifices? No. Do I believe that any man who does not accept Jesus Christ as his savior will be judged by the law? Yes.

What else? So, how do you tie this to Dan 9. It must be pretty straightforward to you since you used this passage first as a proof text.

[Exit40]

Heb 10:5 Therefore when He comes into the world, He says, "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but You have prepared a body for Me.
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then I said, Lo, I come (in the volume of the Book it is written of Me) to do Your will, O God."
Heb 10:8 Above, when He said, "Sacrifice and offering, and burnt offerings and offering for sin You did not desire, neither did You have pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the Law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "Lo, I come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first so that He may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By this will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

What else? So, how do you tie this to Dan 9. It must be pretty straightforward to you since you used this passage first as a proof text.

Excellent response Ready1. However, I do not believe you are dense. At least no denser than I. It may seem I am working backwards here, but what I believe this means as relating to Daniel 9, is Christ is the ONE who causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease...

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,...

By doing this, as you have agreed He did...

Heb 10:9 then He said, "Lo, I come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first so that He may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By this will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

Can you see the possibility of this ? This is essential to answering your request of point by point with Scripture Daniel 9:24.

Heb 10:17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Daniel 9:24 ....and to make an end of sins, ....

As I see it.

God Bless You

David

[Ready1]

Excellent response Ready1. However, I do not believe you are dense. At least no denser than I. It may seem I am working backwards here, but what I believe this means as relating to Daniel 9, is Christ is the ONE who causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease...



Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,...  



By doing this, as you have agreed He did... 

No, Exit40, I am not going to allow you to put words in my mouth. First of all, I do not believe that the “he” of Dan 9:27 is Jesus. It is your job to convince me, using your scriptures, that there is incontrovertible proof that “he” refers to Jesus.

I have told you what I believe that Heb 10:5-10 means. But I do not see the correlation between this chapter and Dan 9 that you obviously do. I told you this upfront.

Furthermore I will also tell you upfront that I do not believe that Jesus has “caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease” like you do. That, according to my viewpoint, is the job of the “prince that shall come.” Again, I spent quite a bit of time explaining why I believe that it is grammatically correct to believe this. No one has attempted to prove my grammar lesson false. As a preTrib believer, I do believe that when Jesus comes back to the earth with his Bride, that he will cause each of the six items of Dan 9:24 to be fulfilled but NO, I do not believe that he has done so already, and I do not believe that it is His job to “cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” So connect the dots. I cannot.

Heb 10:9 then He said, "Lo, I come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first so that He may establish the second.

Heb 10:10 By this will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

What I have agreed to is that Jesus came to do the will of the Father. Furthermore, I will agree that in so doing, he has replaced the Law with something far better; something vastly superior. What is this superior thing by which he replaced the Law? He replaced the Law by standing in its place. No longer does man have to live by “the deeds of the Law” for his righteousness. Man, who is too imperfect to have to live by the deeds of the Law, now has a substitute who has supplied his righteousness in their place. Furthermore, we can be made holy (sanctified) by trusting in the blood of Jesus who offered himself for the sins of all mankind, one time forever.

THAT’S BIG BUSINESS. But it stands on its own and does not, to my understanding, have any reference point back to Dan 9. In answer to the next statement, I can see exactly what I outlined above.

Can you see the possibility of this ? This is essential to answering your request of point by point with Scripture Daniel 9:24.



Heb 10:17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.

Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.



Daniel 9:24 ....and to make an end of sins, ....



As I see it.

I will share my view of the Kingdom, the coming 1000 year reign of Jesus on the earth.

I have no doubt that Jesus, when he comes again, will completely “make an end of sins.” Not just sins but all of Dan 9:24 which states: to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. What I mean when I say that, is that every survivor of the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials, as well as all who survive the sheep/goat judgement by Jesus prior to the entry into the Kingdom will have a new heart, and a new desire. Men who enter the kingdom will not have to deal with the sin problem that has plagued men from the time of Adam. That is why God brings this to pass at this point: so that the circumstances regarding entry into the kingdom are perfect and man will have no excuse for failure. I do not see very many people entering into the Kingdom.

Each time that God has dealt differently with man, he raised up a new standard and by the time that the period was over, man had failed miserably. It happened before the Law at the flood. I happened at the time of the Law. It started off by all the people saying “All these things, we will do.” It ended by crucifying the God of Heaven. How about the day of grace? It started off by “the Lord added to the Church daily such as should be saved”. How will it end? With humanity allied with Satan and at war with God. How about the Kingdom? It will start off without sin and with a perfect World governed by a perfect king, King Jesus. Then what happens? Babies are born who still have a heart problem (edited to add: and yet, because Satan is bound for the entire time of the Kingdom's 1000 years, will not be tempted externally like all the rest of humanity, but when Satan is loosed, many will go with Satan) and by the time that the Kingdom age is over men will be allied with Satan again and at war with God again. (With no war and plentiful food for 1000 years, I see a massive population upon the earth by the end of the Kingdom (30 Billion?)

What is God showing man? God is showing man the same thing that he has always showed him, that under every circumstance, under every condition, with every opportunity, mankind has a heart problem that must be dealt with and Jesus is the only answer for that condition.

I'll let you chew on that.

[shorttribber]

Then Christ will not make an End OF Sin inside the 70 weeks Ready, according to your post above. There will still be sin later, near the end of an eathly 1000 years.

[Ready1]

At that time there will be an end to sin and it will be accomplished within the 70 weeks. But you are correct in that as long as Satan is allowed to tempt man, mankind will fall prey to Satan.

[shorttribber]

At that time there will be an end to sin and it will be accomplished within the 70 weeks. But you are correct in that as long as Satan is allowed to tempt man, mankind will fall prey to Satan.

By "fall prey to Satan", you mean sin, right? Then there would still be sin After the 70 weeks.

[Ready1]

When Satan is released from the pit for "a little season" the temptation of all those who have not faced temptation during the 1000 years will occur. Will Satan be successful and will men sin. Yes. They will once more rise up in rebellion against God.

But that should be no surprise since unregenerate man has always rebelled against God. In spite of the fact that they have been in the presence of the perfect Son of God. (e.g. Judas)

Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 
Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 
 
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 
Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 

[shorttribber]

When Satan is released from the pit for "a little season" the temptation of all those who have not faced temptation during the 1000 years will occur. Will Satan be successful and will men sin. Yes. They will once more rise up in rebellion against God.

But that should be no surprise since unregenerate man has always rebelled against God. In spite of the fact that they have been in the presence of the perfect Son of God. (e.g. Judas)

Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 
Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 
 
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 
Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 
Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 

I never said I would be surprised. I just said there would still be sin. So, the "actual END OF Sin " itself, is not the intended meaning in 9:24......is it.

I DO KNOW the Intended meaning though.


It has Everything to do with one word, "MAKE".

[Exit40]

No, Exit40, I am not going to allow you to put words in my mouth. First of all, I do not believe that the “he” of Dan 9:27 is Jesus. It is your job to convince me, using your scriptures, that there is incontrovertible proof that “he” refers to Jesus.

I have told you what I believe that Heb 10:5-10 means. But I do not see the correlation between this chapter and Dan 9 that you obviously do. I told you this upfront....

I'll let you chew on that.

Thanks for the narrative Ready1, I think I already understand your beliefs. And I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to connect the dots for you, as I have done for myself. If you can't, or don't see it, it's no reflection on anything. Not much more to say then, I certainly don't want to cause anger for you.

God Bless You Brother

David

[Ready1]

[keithareilly]

Thank you, keithareilly, you have coherently and capably outlined your thought process. While we are not in agreement, I can understand your methodology and processes.

For myself, one of the things which you did not mention that I must look at in a passage as defined as Dan 9, is a starting point. Without a starting point, which everything builds upon, we cannot have a correct ending point. But that is a whole different discussion.

Thank you for sharing your processes and for taking the time to write it up.

May the Lord be with you.

Hi Ready1,

This statement about the starting point has been slowly percolating and has only recently come forth as to what is wrong with the statement.

Why does a person, who does not believe the seventy sevens years are consecutive, need a starting point? Only if the years are consecutive does a starting point contribute to identifying the ending point. If the years are not consecutive, then a starting point does not contribute to determining the ending point.

On the other hand, if the years are consecutive, pick a point on the timeline and track back to the starting point. Be aware that dates and time then are not the same as dates and times now. Years were not 356 days. Time frames started when kings took power hence we are in the Year of our Lord 2020. Consequently, years BC have been calculated by other people and may or may not be correct. It is a big mess. Good Luck with it.

Keith

[Mr Baldy]

Why does a person, who does not believe the seventy sevens years are consecutive, need a starting point? Only if the years are consecutive does a starting point contribute to identifying the ending point. If the years are not consecutive, then a starting point does not contribute to determining the ending point.

[Ready1]

Hi Ready1,

This statement about the starting point has been slowly percolating and has only recently come forth as to what is wrong with the statement.

Why does a person, who does not believe the seventy sevens years are consecutive, need a starting point? Only if the years are consecutive does a starting point contribute to identifying the ending point. If the years are not consecutive, then a starting point does not contribute to determining the ending point.

On the other hand, if the years are consecutive, pick a point on the timeline and track back to the starting point. Be aware that dates and time then are not the same as dates and times now. Years were not 356 days. Time frames started when kings took power hence we are in the Year of our Lord 2020. Consequently, years BC have been calculated by other people and may or may not be correct. It is a big mess. Good Luck with it.

Keith

Hi Keith,

When you say that I do not believe that the seventy sevens are consecutive, please recognize that I do believe that Gabriel is talking to Daniel about God’s dealing with the children of Israel. As such, I believe that Gabriel’s message to Daniel is that the first sixty-nine weeks will be completed consecutively.

I further believe that there were those in Israel at the time of Jesus birth who were looking for a Messiah, because they recognized that, while they were uncertain of the exact time frame, they knew that the time was close for the presentation of the Messiah as alluded to by Daniel. I would further submit that God had revealed this truth to them and because he had, they were faithful in looking for his presentation. I would site Luke 2:25-38 as proof of this.

Luk 2:25  Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
Luk 2:26  And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27  And he came in the Spirit into the temple, and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the Law,
Luk 2:28  he took him up in his arms and blessed God and said,
Luk 2:29  "Lord, now you are letting your servant depart in peace, according to your word;
Luk 2:30  for my eyes have seen your salvation
Luk 2:31  that you have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
Luk 2:32  a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and for glory to your people Israel."
Luk 2:33  And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him.
Luk 2:34  And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is opposed
Luk 2:35  (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), so that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed."
Luk 2:36  And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from when she was a virgin,
Luk 2:37  and then as a widow until she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.
Luk 2:38  And coming up at that very hour she began to give thanks to God and to speak of him to all who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem.

God’s statement to Daniel, through Gabriel, is important and should in retrospect be verifiable. So while I have not done the calendar work myself, I do believe that the information is available and correct. I have no idea how you look at things so (since we do not hotlink on this site) here is an interesting website that may or may not interest you. (neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/what-is-the-correct-calculation-of-daniels-69-weeks/)

I will quote the conclusion of this site.

In conclusion, the correct start date is 1 Nisan 444 B.C. and the end date of the prophecy is 6 Nisan A.D. 33, which occurred before Christ’s death on 14 Nisan 33 A.D.

Why is it important to have a starting point? It is important because without a starting point, there is no way to verify the truth of the prophetic utterances of Gabriel. Was what he said true? Of course! It was delivered to Daniel through Gabriel from God Himself. Therefore it ought to be possible to establish the time of the prophecy. This site works through several problems of timing and seems to be credible.

If the conclusion above is correct, then it is a verifiable truth that the Messiah was cut off after the close of the 69th week. The issue of whether the 70th week follows the 69th week consecutively is a separate issue.

[keithareilly]

Ah,

I did not realize you thought of the first 69 weeks as consecutive.

Very enlightening. And I will check out the web site too.

Thanks.

[Ready1]

Ah,

I did not realize you thought of the first 69 weeks as consecutive.

Very enlightening. And I will check out the web site too.

Thanks.

I think that virtually every proponent of a preTrib rapture would believe that the first 69 weeks are consecutive. You don't have to take my word for it; you can ask here at fulfilledProphecy to ascertain this. PreTrib simply sees that God's program for Israel is interrupted by his program for the Church; but that God will again work with the nation of Israel for a period of seven years to accomplish His will.

I am intrigued at how many times that Jesus was asked whether he was come to either 1) be a king or 2) to restore the kingdom to Israel. When He comes the second time, that will be accomplished because that will be His mission; but not the first time. Here are some examples:

1. Mar_11:10  Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

2. Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 

3. Luk_19:11  And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

4. Luk 24:21  But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. 

5. Joh 6:15  When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. 

6. Act 1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 

[Mark F]

The Bible only has one decree to rebuild the city and the wall, the other, previous decrees in Ez 1, 6, 7, and 8 by Cyrus and Darious and one from Artaxerxes were concerning the Temple. In Neh 2 the correct decree was given by Artaxerxes Longimonus it begins the first 69 weeks and concludes when Jesus presented Himself as Messiah/King at His triumphal entry, it is 173,880 days based on a 360 day calendar with proper adjustments for leap year and error corrections made by the Romans I believe. Quite remarkable and very interesting study I might add.

I will check out that site as well.

[Ready1]

The Bible only has one decree to rebuild the city and the wall, the other, previous decrees in Ez 1, 6, 7, and 8 by Cyrus and Darious and one from Artaxerxes were concerning the Temple. In Neh 2 the correct decree was given by Artaxerxes Longimonus it begins the first 69 weeks and concludes when Jesus presented Himself as Messiah/King at His triumphal entry, it is 173,880 days based on a 360 day calendar with proper adjustments for leap year and error corrections made by the Romans I believe. Quite remarkable and very interesting study I might add.

I will check out that site as well.

I agree. (I'd be glad for your opinion on the website.)

[keithareilly]

Interesting perspective that people believe the church is an interruption of God's Jewish agenda.

I don't see that at all. I see the Jewish history and future as a representative of a larger picture.

Their slavery to Egypt is a worldly representation of slavery to sin.
Being set free from enslavement to Egypt is the worldly representation of being set free from enslavement to sin.
Inheriting the promised land is a worldly representation of inheriting the Kingdom of God.
The diaspora is a worldly representation of the spreading of Gospel across the world.
Their regathering to the promised land is a worldly representation of a regathering to the Kingdom of Heaven.
(Fewer Jews throughout the world, means fewer Christians throughout the world).

When their eyes are no longer blinded, Christians and Jews will understand we are united, as one and same olive tree, kingdom.

Keith

[shorttribber]

Interesting perspective that people believe the church is an interruption of God's Jewish agenda.

I don't see that at all. I see the Jewish history and future as a representative of a larger picture.

Their slavery to Egypt is a worldly representation of slavery to sin.
Being set free from enslavement to Egypt is the worldly representation of being set free from enslavement to sin.
Inheriting the promised land is a worldly representation of inheriting the Kingdom of God.
The diaspora is a worldly representation of the spreading of Gospel across the world.
Their regathering to the promised land is a worldly representation of a regathering to the Kingdom of Heaven.
(Fewer Jews throughout the world, means fewer Christians throughout the world).

When their eyes are no longer blinded, Christians and Jews will understand we are united, as one and same olive tree, kingdom.

Keith

True

[Mark F]

Interesting perspective that people believe the church is an interruption of God's Jewish agenda.

I don't see that at all. I see the Jewish history and future as a representative of a larger picture.

Their slavery to Egypt is a worldly representation of slavery to sin.
Being set free from enslavement to Egypt is the worldly representation of being set free from enslavement to sin.
Inheriting the promised land is a worldly representation of inheriting the Kingdom of God.
The diaspora is a worldly representation of the spreading of Gospel across the world.
Their regathering to the promised land is a worldly representation of a regathering to the Kingdom of Heaven.
(Fewer Jews throughout the world, means fewer Christians throughout the world).

When their eyes are no longer blinded, Christians and Jews will understand we are united, as one and same olive tree, kingdom.

Keith

I disagree with much of this, it sounds dangerously close to replacement theology to me, like "Their diaspora is an example of the spreading of the gospel" Back that up with Scripture please.

Rom_11:1  "I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!...."

Joh 10:16  "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." Who would these "other sheep" be?

Paul even clearly states in Eph 5 that the Church is a mystery, that seems like a straight forward declaration to me.

[keithareilly]

Interesting perspective that people believe the church is an interruption of God's Jewish agenda.

I don't see that at all. I see the Jewish history and future as a representative of a larger picture.

Their slavery to Egypt is a worldly representation of slavery to sin.
Being set free from enslavement to Egypt is the worldly representation of being set free from enslavement to sin.
Inheriting the promised land is a worldly representation of inheriting the Kingdom of God.
The diaspora is a worldly representation of the spreading of Gospel across the world.
Their regathering to the promised land is a worldly representation of a regathering to the Kingdom of Heaven.
(Fewer Jews throughout the world, means fewer Christians throughout the world).

When their eyes are no longer blinded, Christians and Jews will understand we are united, as one and same olive tree, kingdom.

Keith

I disagree with much of this, it sounds dangerously close to replacement theology to me, like "Their diaspora is an example of the spreading of the gospel" Back that up with Scripture please.

Rom_11:1  "I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!...."

Joh 10:16  "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." Who would these "other sheep" be?

Paul even clearly states in Eph 5 that the Church is a mystery, that seems like a straight forward declaration to me.

Replacement Theology...

Romans 11:17-24
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[b] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

[Ready1]

Rom 11:11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
Rom 11:12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
Rom 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
Rom 11:14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Romans 11:17-24

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

The Jewish branches were removed due to sin and rejection and Gentiles now have the opportunity to share in Jesus, the nourishing root of the olive tree.

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

Don’t see yourself better than the original branches. We are not the root and Jesus said “I am the vine, ye are the branches.”

19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

We have a problem with pride and may tend to think this is about us.

20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

The reason that we have an opportunity is because of their sin of unbelief. Faith in Jesus, though, is where our opportunity is grounded.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

If we do not remain in the power of faith, God can do to us what he did to them

22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Pay attention to God’s requirement and view his kindness and his justice. Take heed.

23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

This is not final and when their hearts are changed, God will reestablish Jews into the vine again.

24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

We who were grafted into the cultivated olive received blessing, and when the natural branches are regrafted back into their natural position they to shall be blessed and it is God who will perform it.


But please include the rest of the passage which tells the rest of the story:

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

I want you to be aware of this and how long this is to be. The hearts of the Jews have been partly hardened until the full salvation of the Gentiles has been accomplished.

Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

After the salvation of the Gentiles has occurred, then Jesus will come from Zion and he will expel ungodliness from Israel.

Rom 11:27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Then Jesus makes a covenant with Israel when he takes away all their sins. I would suggest that Daniel 9:24 fits right here:

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness,

Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

Currently, with regard to the Gospel of salvation, Jewish folks are enemies because of their hard hearts. But because God has established them through “election” they are loved because of their forefathers.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

God’s promises to OT Israel are unconditional and immutable

Rom 11:30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,

At one time, we were in the same position that they are now, and would be still except for the mercy of God and the waywardness of the Jewish nation.

Rom 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

Because they have been rebellious, we have received mercy and because of that, they will be shown the same mercy in the future.

Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Everyone has the same heart; all are disobedient, and yet God has mercy and compassion upon all of us by faith.


This passage has nothing to do with "Replacement Theology" where the Church takes over the position of Israel, and to imply that it does says that we do not understand what it is saying. This passage deals with the setting aside of the Jewish nation because of rebellion and unbelief for a time (the fullness of the Gentiles, when Gentiles have the opportunity for a relationship with the Lord) and then the glorious restoration of the Jewish nation and the blessing on the whole earth that will follow.

[keithareilly]

Hi Ready1,

I have no problem with your view here.
It is another person who perceives a replacement theology.
As originally posted, same olive tree; not a new one.

[Mark F]

Ready1's response fits perfectly. Keith, your response gave me the impression that you believed Israel was only to give us spiritual examples. if not, my apologies.

[keithareilly]

HI Mark,

No problem.

My original post about "a larger picture", is more "fractal" like imagery.

Have a blessed week brother.

Keith