Christ's Return

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Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:25 pm

This board has just about every viewpoint on the return of Jesus. Pretrib believes that Jesus will come for his Church prior to the tribulation. Posttrib believes that he will come for his Church after the tribulation. Pre wrath believes that he will come for his church before the bowl & trumpet judgements. Some see the "great U-turn". Some only see one return. Some see two returns (one of which he does not "touchdown" on the earth).

Is there a way that we can courteously share and discuss what we envision and why we believe it without trying to destroy each others viewpoint? Lets just look at our understanding OF Jesus return(s) and NOT the timing of it or them.

As I read the word, it seems to me that there is a great argument that Jesus will return for his church, a time that is separate and distinctly different from the time that he returns in "power and great glory" to the earth. I would offer the following scripture as a starting point for discussion.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


I would point to the last verse which clearly states that Jesus shall return in the same manner that the disciples saw him go. When he left them, several things can be noted.

1. He left by Himself.
2. In the presence of believers only,
3. Into the clouds
4. Into heaven.

What are your thoughts? :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby shorttribber on Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:27 pm

Hi Ready,
The kind of physical coming of Christ I believe and think scripture supports is just One return to earth.

When we look at the words "in like manner", I do not think we can also conclude that He comes completely alone...by Himself...because He left alone...because of the words, "in like manner".




my two cents
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:38 pm

shorttribber wrote:Hi Ready,
The kind of physical coming of Christ I believe and think scripture supports is just One return to earth.

When we look at the words "in like manner", I do not think we can also conclude that He comes completely alone...by Himself...because He left alone...because of the words, "in like manner".


So if I understand you correctly, your position would be that as long as Jesus comes back in the air (regardless of other circumstances) it would be enough to qualify as "in like manner"?
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby shorttribber on Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:00 pm

Ready1 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Hi Ready,
The kind of physical coming of Christ I believe and think scripture supports is just One return to earth.

When we look at the words "in like manner", I do not think we can also conclude that He comes completely alone...by Himself...because He left alone...because of the words, "in like manner".


So if I understand you correctly, your position would be that as long as Jesus comes back in the air (regardless of other circumstances) it would be enough to qualify as "in like manner"?


I think of it as a statement meant to convey the idea and certainty that Christ will Physically return from heaven in the Literal Clouds. The key part of it is the Physical Literal Return of Christ Himself....as opposed to some OTHER manifestation of a So Called Christ ON THE EARTH that would CALL himself Christ CURRENTLY or in the Future.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby mark s on Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:21 pm

Interesting OP. I think it's just like Jesus' statement about, as it were in the days of Noah. People often add or take away to fit to their various eschatologies.

Depending on how they think things will be, they interpret these passages to fit.

I like your approach, to simply catalog the statements:

1. He left by Himself.
2. In the presence of believers only,
3. Into the clouds
4. Into heaven.


I'd add . . .

He physically went into heaven, He will physically return from there.
His departure was witnessed by men and angels, His return will be the same.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:08 am

mark s wrote:I'd add . . .

He physically went into heaven, He will physically return from there.
His departure was witnessed by men and angels, His return will be the same.


I like your observations. If we add them to the list, it looks something like this.
1. He left by Himself.
2. In the presence of believers only,
3. Into the clouds
4. He physically went Into heaven.
5. He will physically return from heaven.
6. His departure was witnessed by men and angels (I would probably add "believers")
7. His return will be witnessed by men and angels.


The following passage has more observations for us regarding the time when the Lord returns for believers.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Here's a start...

1. The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout
2. Then there will be a voice of the archangel.
3. Then there will be a trump of God
4. Those who have died will come with Jesus.
5. And their resurrected bodies will come out of the graves.
6. They will precede those who are still alive.
7. Then the living will be caught up with them to the clouds.
8. All together will meet the Lord in the air.
9. We will all be with the Lord Jesus forever.
10 In this passage there is no mention of anyone other than believers.
11 We are to receive comfort from these facts.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:05 pm

Hello

I think the question that we should be more concerned with is when do we need to begin to believe through faith that Jesus is Lord over all? Jesus' second coming is a fact that is to happen. What is not a fact is our belief through faith in Him as we are so fickle in our understanding.

People argue that the second coming could happen at any time, but when it comes it will be with measurable and great fanfare that we can observe and understand that the promised second coming of Christ has occurred..

However, the cutting short of our lives irrespective of our faith and beliefs creeps up on us unannounced and unexpectedly as the breath of life is removed from us and we have no more time to make up our mind concerning our belief through faith in Him and His purposes for Mankind.

If we have belief and faith in Him, then when He will come is of no concern for us. What is of concern is that we wear our faith and belief in Him as a cloak over us such that when others look at us they see the desirable difference in us and see the reason for that difference in us.

The question that we should be asking ourselves is have I embraced the Son of Man, who is the Son of God such that He lives within me always. The rest will take care of itself as we allow Christ to continually draw us to Himself and to God.

Shalom
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:21 pm

Jay Ross wrote:If we have belief and faith in Him, then when He will come is of no concern for us. What is of concern is that we wear our faith and belief in Him as a cloak over us such that when others look at us they see the desirable difference in us and see the reason for that difference in us.

The question that we should be asking ourselves is have I embraced the Son of Man, who is the Son of God such that He lives within me always. The rest will take care of itself as we allow Christ to continually draw us to Himself and to God.


Hi Jay,

I don't think anyone would disagree with your statement, and I think that everyone on this board would definitely agree that each of us will stand before the Lord, and it is imperative that we believe and trust in Jesus. Otherwise we have no hope.

On the other hand, it is interesting to examine each of the scriptures which speak of his return for what they actually say rather than for what we think they say. Join us in the discussion. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby shorttribber on Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:33 am

One thing to consider also if a person is to think of "in like manner". He left from the Earth/Terrafirma.
When He returns, it will be to the "Terrafirma"....not a return only in the clouds, to return once more to heaven, and then return once again to the terrafirma.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:21 am

Ready1 wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:If we have belief and faith in Him, then when He will come is of no concern for us. What is of concern is that we wear our faith and belief in Him as a cloak over us such that when others look at us they see the desirable difference in us and see the reason for that difference in us.

The question that we should be asking ourselves is have I embraced the Son of Man, who is the Son of God such that He lives within me always. The rest will take care of itself as we allow Christ to continually draw us to Himself and to God.


Hi Jay,

I don't think anyone would disagree with your statement, and I think that everyone on this board would definitely agree that each of us will stand before the Lord, and it is imperative that we believe and trust in Jesus. Otherwise we have no hope.

On the other hand, it is interesting to examine each of the scriptures which speak of his return for what they actually say rather than for what we think they say. Join us in the discussion. :grin:


I would love to but my understanding does not usually fit the acceptable traditional understanding.

We are told that Christ as a king will be seen from Jerusalem in our near future judging the nations which will have been trampling the Sanctuary of God according to prophecy for 2,300 years, i.e. that is solar years. We are also told that the Israelites will be given His terms of peace to comply with. In complying with these terms of peace all of Israel, as Paul suggests, will be saved after the completion in time of the Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God.

We are also told that Christ after that time will be a Priest of God in heaven for around 1,000 years with the Saints who have lost their heads because of their faith in Christ. This suggests that the near visitation will be a fleeting visit to the face of the earth.

There are also various documentation of personal testimonies of people having encounters with Christ in dreams and visions. These dreams and visions tend to be very fleeting in nature/characteristics.

We are also told that in the distant future, after the passing of 1,000 years into the Millennium Age that Christ will descend from Heaven to capture the Beast and the Little Horn, i.e. the false prophet, and then despatch them both into the Lake of Fire towards the very end of the Millennium Age.

Christ alsotold us in the Parable of the 10 Virgins that He will be fleetingly visiting the banqueting Hall to claim His Bride and shutting the door after Him. My understanding is that this is a near future event.

If I think of any others, I will post those as I remember them.

Shalom
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby mark s on Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:31 am

shorttribber wrote:One thing to consider also if a person is to think of "in like manner". He left from the Earth/Terrafirma.
When He returns, it will be to the "Terrafirma"....not a return only in the clouds, to return once more to heaven, and then return once again to the terrafirma.


Agreed. Of course, before that, the rapture!

:grin: :grin: :grin:

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:42 pm

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:One thing to consider also if a person is to think of "in like manner". He left from the Earth/Terrafirma.
When He returns, it will be to the "Terrafirma"....not a return only in the clouds, to return once more to heaven, and then return once again to the terrafirma.


Agreed. Of course, before that, the rapture!

:grin: :grin: :grin:

Much love!
Mark



Hum, how much time before that? Is it seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, decades, ages, etc. before that? Or does the Rapture happen in conjunction with, or at the same time as Christ is seen coming in the same way that he Left the Disciples? :mrgreen:
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby mark s on Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:49 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Hum, how much time before that? Is it seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, decades, ages, etc. before that?


Yes!

:grin:

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:17 pm

Jay Ross wrote:I would love to but my understanding does not usually fit the acceptable traditional understanding.

We are told that Christ as a king will be seen from Jerusalem in our near future judging the nations which will have been trampling the Sanctuary of God according to prophecy for 2,300 years, i.e. that is solar years. We are also told that the Israelites will be given His terms of peace to comply with. In complying with these terms of peace all of Israel, as Paul suggests, will be saved after the completion in time of the Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God.

We are also told that Christ after that time will be a Priest of God in heaven for around 1,000 years with the Saints who have lost their heads because of their faith in Christ. This suggests that the near visitation will be a fleeting visit to the face of the earth.

There are also various documentation of personal testimonies of people having encounters with Christ in dreams and visions. These dreams and visions tend to be very fleeting in nature/characteristics.

We are also told that in the distant future, after the passing of 1,000 years into the Millennium Age that Christ will descend from Heaven to capture the Beast and the Little Horn, i.e. the false prophet, and then despatch them both into the Lake of Fire towards the very end of the Millennium Age.

Christ alsotold us in the Parable of the 10 Virgins that He will be fleetingly visiting the banqueting Hall to claim His Bride and shutting the door after Him. My understanding is that this is a near future event.

If I think of any others, I will post those as I remember them.

Shalom


Hi Jay,

I have to do some mental gymnastics to get a handle on your viewpoint, but continue to throw it out there. To me it feels like your timeframes are somewhat random, but I'm certain that they make sense to you.

Jay Ross wrote:Hum, how much time before that? Is it seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, decades, ages, etc. before that? Or does the Rapture happen in conjunction with, or at the same time as Christ is seen coming in the same way that he Left the Disciples? :mrgreen:


Hopefully there is enough information in scripture to answer your second question,
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:21 pm

Any comments on the passage from 1Thessalonians 4? Or are there different conclusions from what I have thrown out?
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby shorttribber on Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:08 pm

mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:One thing to consider also if a person is to think of "in like manner". He left from the Earth/Terrafirma.
When He returns, it will be to the "Terrafirma"....not a return only in the clouds, to return once more to heaven, and then return once again to the terrafirma.


Agreed. Of course, before that, the rapture!

:grin: :grin: :grin:

Much love!
Mark


I may not be making my point very well though mark. My point is that I expect only One Return.....From Heaven...pausing briefly in the clouds to gather the saints ....then continuing His glorious return to the Terrafirma.

We may follow Him shortly after He touches the earth (while He alone touches the Mt. of Olives).

That is what I think could occur.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:25 pm

Ready1 wrote: Any comments on the passage from 1Thessalonians 4? Or are there different conclusions from what I have thrown out?


Hi Ready1,

I would like to make a comment in regards to 1 Thessalonians 4 - however, let me first say that everything you posted is "spot on." I really don't want to get into a Rapture debate - as for me there is no longer any debating. I feel that Scripture points out very clear evidence that here is absolutely no Pre-Tribulation Rapture, as so many have been bamboozled and/or erroneously taught to believe in.

So the questions become - based on the verses of Scripture that you have mentioned; is "WHY"; "Where"; "What" & "How"?

1) Why do the Dead in Christ "come with Him" - as their bodies are resurrected from their graves?
2) Where are the Dead coming with Him to (location)?
3) Why are the Dead in Christ resurrected first?
4) Why are Believers both Dead & Alive meeting Him in the Air - what's the purpose?
5) Is there One General Resurrection - as those who are wicked are not mentioned in this passage of Scripture?
6) What is the purpose of Paul mentioning those who are "In Christ" only?
7) Why does Paul not specifically mention "where" we are going - only that we will be with Him Forever?
8) How does the Day of the Lord fit into this meeting in the Air?
9) Martha mentions the resurrection of believers on the "LAST DAY" - is this the "LAST DAY"?
10) How does this same "LAST DAY" equate to unbelievers?

You see, 1 Thessalonians 4 should not be limited to "believers" only.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby mark s on Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:53 am

shorttribber wrote:. My point is that I expect only One Return.....From Heaven...pausing briefly in the clouds to gather the saints ....then continuing His glorious return to the Terrafirma.


Hi ST,

I realize that. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said anything.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby shorttribber on Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:46 pm

Rev 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The above text must also be in view when we consider the "Manner" of Christ's return.

My quote below is in agreement I think with the idea of the Saints Following After Christ as he proceeds to the earth.

shorttribber wrote:I may not be making my point very well though mark. My point is that I expect only One Return.....From Heaven...pausing briefly in the clouds to gather the saints ....then continuing His glorious return to the Terrafirma.We may follow Him shortly after He touches the earth (while He alone touches the Mt. of Olives).That is what I think could occur.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby mark s on Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:52 pm

Got it, thank you! I'm trying to avoid the rapture timing issue, I think that had been requested.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:33 pm

Hello

Continuing n ST’s comments on Revelation 19 I would like to add the following comments: -

Putting Revelation 19 into context, it is my understanding that the chapter can be divided into two halves, with the first 10 verses associated with the beginning of the Millennium Age up and until the first 1000 years have passed while the second half is to do with the battles at the end of the age during the little while period, after Satan and the beasts and the scorpions are released, after the 1,000 years of the Bottomless Pit being locked, when the bottomless pit is opened.

During the battles at the end of the Age, the beast and the false prophet is captured by Christ and dispatched into the lake of fire.

After that God sends fire down out of heaven and devoured the armies surrounding Jerusalem and Satan is then dispatched into the lake of fire joining the beast and the false prophet.

This confirms the Daniel verse where it says: -

Daniel 11:44-45: - 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.


Daniel 12:1 also suggests that Michael, i.e. ?? Jesus/Christ, will, at this time, stand up to protect the Saints and deliver every one who is found written in the Book.

Revelation 19 is a chapter written around Christ and what he will be doing during the last age, whereas chapter 20 is written predominately around the activities of Satan followed by the final judgement.

It is after God has dealt with Satan, that Jesus will then descend from heaven to the earth with all the hosts of heaven to begin the final judgement.

It is at this time that the saints who are still alive will rise up into the air to meet Christ as He is descending. This is the "rapture" so many look forward to. But most of the people who rise up to meet Christ in the air at this time will be saints resurrected up out of their graves, this is the second resurrection of those who have died for Christ.

Shalom
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:41 pm

Without attempting to answer the who, what, when, where, why questions regarding 1 Thess 4, can we all agree that each of these points are related to Jesus return to the earth (one time: post trib/pre wrath or one and a half times: pre trib)
1. He left by Himself.
2. In the presence of believers only,
3. Into the clouds
4. He physically went Into heaven.
5. He will physically return from heaven.
6. His departure was witnessed by men and angels (I would probably add "believers")
7. His return will be witnessed by men and angels.

1. The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout
2. Then there will be a voice of the archangel.
3. Then there will be a trump of God
4. Those who have died will come with Jesus.
5. And their resurrected bodies will come out of the graves.
6. They will precede those who are still alive.
7. Then the living will be caught up with them to the clouds.
8. All together will meet the Lord in the air.
9. We will all be with the Lord Jesus forever.
10 In this passage there is no mention of anyone other than believers.
11 We are to receive comfort from these facts.


If we can agree with that, then let's bring on the next scripture.

I would suggest a couple of sections of 1 Cor 15.


1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Does this passage further our understanding of Jesus return at all?
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:20 pm

Several things to note from this passage.

1. There is a scriptural order by which things proceed.
2. Jesus was resurrected first, then the believing dead will be resurrected when he returns.
3. When the dead are resurrected at Jesus return they will not be the same as they have been.
4. Not everyone dies but all believers are changed.
4. The change occurs instantly. (The twinkling of an eye)
5. This happens when the last trumpet sounds.
6. Bodies of those who have perished or died will come to life.
7. Formerly dead and currently living will immediately have bodies which will live forever.
8. Glory will result from such a miracle.
9. This only applies to those who are "in Christ".
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:15 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:1) Why do the Dead in Christ "come with Him" - as their bodies are resurrected from their graves?


Just curious Mr. B in light of your question how you view death? Jesus told the thief on the "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." And yet his body was killed. Do you see body, soul, and spirit? Is the body separated from the soul and spirit at physical death?

I would see this as a clear indication of the bodies of the dead being reunited with their soul/spirits which have been with the Lord.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:18 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:]2) Where are the Dead coming with Him to (location)?


Once again, I would see the soul/spirits of the dead coming with Jesus to be reunited with their newly resurrected, immortal bodies.

What do the rest of you see?
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:26 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:4) Why are Believers both Dead & Alive meeting Him in the Air - what's the purpose?


Most pretribbers would be happy to tell you that Jesus is coming for his Bride (which is made up of the living believers in Him and those who have died in Him) and the Marriage of the Lamb will take place once he has taken them back to Heaven with him... :grin: :grin: :grin:

If you would just listen to them...Maybe I'll just be quiet for awhile
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby shorttribber on Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:24 pm

Ready1 wrote:Most pretribbers would be happy to tell you that Jesus is coming for his Bride (which is made up of the living believers in Him and those who have died in Him) and the Marriage of the Lamb will take place once he has taken them back to Heaven with him...


The bride is in view as Coming to Earth rather than Going to Heaven at the time of the Wedding according to the following text.

Seems to be the plain reading of the text.

Trying to not speak of timing necessarily, but it does seem unavoidable according to Revelation 19

Rev 19

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby mark s on Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:11 am

Jay Ross wrote:
mark s wrote:
shorttribber wrote:One thing to consider also if a person is to think of "in like manner". He left from the Earth/Terrafirma.
When He returns, it will be to the "Terrafirma"....not a return only in the clouds, to return once more to heaven, and then return once again to the terrafirma.


Agreed. Of course, before that, the rapture!

:grin: :grin: :grin:

Much love!
Mark



Hum, how much time before that? Is it seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, decades, ages, etc. before that? Or does the Rapture happen in conjunction with, or at the same time as Christ is seen coming in the same way that he Left the Disciples? :mrgreen:


Hi Jay,

I'm sorry, I just saw this one.

I see the catching away of those in Christ foretold in 1 Thess. 4 to be a separate event from Jesus' coming to earth to rescue the Jews, and take His throne upon earth. How many seconds before? Hmm. Not sure. Probably a couple of hundred million or so.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:30 pm

Any disagreements with my observations on 1 Cor 15?

Any more observations from 1 Cor 15?
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:34 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Jay,

I'm sorry, I just saw this one.

I see the catching away of those in Christ foretold in 1 Thess. 4 to be a separate event from Jesus' coming to earth to rescue the Jews, and take His throne upon earth. How many seconds before? Hmm. Not sure. Probably a couple of hundred million or so.

Much love!
Mark


We know that the Son of Man is given dominion and a kingdom in Daniel 7:13-14

Daniel 7:13-14: -

13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.


Now when does this occur? Does being given a kingdom mean that he must physically live continually within the boundaries of that kingdom or can he exercise his dominion over that kingdom from where he is give the kingdom, i.e. from heaven?

There is the rub. When we think of a kingdom, we think of a dominion, glory and a kingdom in earthly terms, but in this case the dominion glory and kingdom is given by God within His terms of giving to the Son of Man.

But Satan is a heavenly host and up and until the time of his near future judgement in heaven and his being thrown out of heaven down to the face of the earth, he has exercised his dominion over the earth successfully from heaven through his spiritual dominion over people. To stop Satan from having any influence over the peoples of the earth when the Everlasting Kingdom of God is going to be established on the face of the earth, Satan will be locked up in the bottomless pit which is so deep that his influence cannot escape from the bottomless pit for the first 1,000 years of the Everlasting Kingdom.

When Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit, he realises that his time is short and he goes after the woman and then after the saints but he is overcome by the saints.

Revelation 12:10-12: - 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."


The Bible depicts that Satan goes all over the world raising up a great army of people to overcome the woman and the Saintsbut the flood oof water, i.e. the people who have joined his arm die and are swallowed up by the earth, and Satan is then dealt with by God near Jerusaem and there is no one there to help him not even the beast and the false prophet who has, by this time, been captured by Christ and dispatched into the Lake of Fire shortly before God finally deals with Satan.

Now while Satan is away, locked up in the Bottomless Pit, he provides the means for his good and faithful servants, i.e. people who are loyal to him, to oppress the people of the earth around them through the use of lending money such that the people have to work so hard that they have no time for the things of God. That means that there will be resistance to the Son of Man who has been given dominion glory and the kingdom where all the people of the earth should be worshipping Him.


But God has the faith in the people that they will be able to overcome Satan.


Shalom
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:53 pm

You are correct, ST, that Rev 19 talks about the return of the Lord to the earth. And, yes, we can glean much from this chapter. Let's look at it together.

Rev 19:6 And I heard as the sound of a great multitude, and as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of strong thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord God omnipotent reigns!
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and we will give glory to Him. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.
Rev 19:9 And he said to me, Write, Blessed are those who have been called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See, do not do it! I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself.
Rev 19:13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God,
Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and those sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.


1) There is a great multitude which is excited about the marriage of Jesus.
2) Jesus wife has prepared herself.
3) Jesus wife is with him and has been supplied new clothing.
4) The new clothing that Jesus wife wears is fine linen.
5) The new clothing that Jesus wife wears is clean and white.
6) The new clothing that Jesus’ wife wears represents the righteousness of the saints.
7) There is a blessing which is associated with all those who have been invited to the marriage supper of Jesus and his wife.

8) Heaven is opened and Jesus is sitting on a white horse
9) Jesus purpose is to judge and make war in righteousness.
10) Jesus eyes are like flames.
11) Jesus has many crowns on his head.
12) Jesus has a special name that no one knows except him.
13) The clothing that he wears has been dipped in blood.
14) He is called by the name: “the Word of God.”
15) He is followed as he rides out of heaven by the armies in heaven.
16) These armies are wearing the same clothing as Jesus’ afore mentioned wife.
17) They are clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
18) Jesus is going out to judge the nations and his tongue is seen as a sharp sword.
19) Jesus will discipline the nations with his rod which is made of iron.
20) He will meet out judgment to those who deserve it. It is characterized like stomping grapes in a winepress.
21) He is paying back the enemies of God by wrath.
22) His title, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, is written on his garment and on his thigh.
23) An angel invites the birds to a supper supplied by God.
24) The birds are to eat the flesh of kings, commanders, strong ones, horses, riders, free men and slaves, small and great.
25) Many gather to fight with Jesus and his army.
26) Included among those whose fight Jesus are: the beast, the false prophet, the kings of the earth and their armies..
27) Jesus wins: the following lose: the beast, the false prophet, those who took the mark of the beast, those who had worshiped the image of the beast.
28) The beast and the false prophet were captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire.
29) All of the rest were killed by Jesus sword which came out of Jesus mouth.
30) The birds were filled up.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:07 pm

Ready 1

I am not sure that I can follow your logic in what you have posted.

Rev 19 is more complex than what you are suggesting.

I disagree with a number of statements that you have made.

I would need more time than a cursory glance at the chapter to present my ideas.

First off the Judgement of the nations at Armageddon occurs before Rev 19 begins, i.e. Dan 7:11-12, and Isaiah 24:21-22

Israel is the trigger for the nations of the world rising up and marching towards Jerusalem to stop the Israelite from build the Third Temple.[Luke 14:28-30] Jesus warned the Jews during the first advent that they would not have the means to complete this task.

When Jesus is seen judging the nations of the earth at Armageddon the Israelites seek His terms of peace. Luke 14:31-32.

As Paul tells us in Romans 11:25-26, when the fullness in time of the Heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God, is completed, then after that time all of Israel will be saved.

Then God promises to gather all of Israel to Himself and plant them in good fertile soil and teach them about the things of God.

Just as Abraham had prepared a remnant of His family through Keturah to, around 390 years after Jacob goes down to Egypt, be available to teach Moses about the things of God, so too, Jesus has prepared a people group to be available some 2,000 or so years later to be available to teach the Israelites about the Kingdom of Heaven and its statutes to prepare them to become a blessing to all of the nations of the earth. Israel will be instructed on the Mountains of Israel, on the foundational truths of God in the places where they have been scattered.

Ezekiel 34:11-16: - 11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day, {i.e. on the day of the Battle at Armageddon}. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, {i.e. there own fertile field}; I will feed them on the mountains, i.e. the religion, of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. 16 "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."


During this process of teaching Israqel on the Mountains of Israel, God will make like new again, his original covenant made at MT Zion, which they rebelled against, to become a KIngdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations. It should be noted, that, if they are all fenced in, in the Land of Canaan, then they cannot be God's possession among the Nations.

Entering into this covenant, they also embrace the covenant entered into by a Bride and becomes Christ Bride as spoken about in the PArable of the Ten Virgins.


Then for the rest of the 1,000 years that Satan is imprisoned in the Bottomless pit, they will be God Priests among the Nations.

In the Parable of the Minas, when Satan Goes away to get a kingdom, i.e. He really goes to be locked up in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years, the Israels go to God and tell God that they no longer want to be associated with Satan. The have come to realise the extent of their iniquities.

Rev 19 gives us a snippet of this unfolding story in sketchy fleeting details.

The when Satan is realsed along with the Beast and the False Prophet the last section of Chapter 19 of Revelation comes into view. It contains a reference to a prophecy in Ezekiel 39:4, 17-20.

I may pick this up later when I have time to thing a litter deeper.

Shalom
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:00 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Ready 1

I am not sure that I can follow your logic in what you have posted.

Rev 19 is more complex than what you are suggesting.

I disagree with a number of statements that you have made.



I could put a verse number behind each statement in chronological order but I don't think that would satisfy. If you just read through the passage, Jay, you will see where I am coming from. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:44 pm

Ready1 wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Ready 1

I am not sure that I can follow your logic in what you have posted.

Rev 19 is more complex than what you are suggesting.

I disagree with a number of statements that you have made.



I could put a verse number behind each statement in chronological order but I don't think that would satisfy. If you just read through the passage, Jay, you will see where I am coming from. :grin:



Your number 25 point gives the wrong impression.

Ready1 wrote:You are correct, ST, that Rev 19 talks about the return of the Lord to the earth. And, yes, we can glean much from this chapter. Let's look at it together.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.


25) Many gather to fight with Jesus and his army.

[/quote]

If I say, I am fighting with Joe Doe, does that mean, that both Joe and I are fighting on the same side or are we opposed and fighting each other.


The statement is ambigious and is not clear in what is being said..

Shalom
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:51 am

Jay Ross wrote:
Your number 25 point gives the wrong impression.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth and their armies, being gathered to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword of Him who sat on the horse, it proceeding out of His mouth. And all the birds were filled from their flesh.


25) Many gather to fight with Jesus and his army.

The statement is ambigious and is not clear in what is being said...


Let me try this, Jay.

25) Many gather to fight against Jesus and his army.

If you can agree with that I will be happy to change it. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:52 pm

Since there is not much blowback on this, I will couple the summaries of the following scriptures. These scriptures do NOT mention Jesus coming to the earth in power and glory, and they do mention Jesus gathering those who become his bride/wife.

Acts 1:6-11

1. He left by Himself.
2. In the presence of believers only,
3. Into the clouds
4. He physically went Into heaven.
5. He will physically return from heaven.
6. His departure was witnessed by men and angels (I would probably add "believers")
7. His return will be witnessed by men and angels.

1 Thess 4:13-18

1.The Lord will descend from heaven with a shout
2. Then there will be a voice of the archangel.
3. Then there will be a trump of God
4. Those who have died will come with Jesus.
5. And their resurrected bodies will come out of the graves.
6. They will precede those who are still alive.
7. Then the living will be caught up with them to the clouds.
8. All together will meet the Lord in the air.
9. We will all be with the Lord Jesus forever.
10 In this passage there is no mention of anyone other than believers.
11 We are to receive comfort from these facts.

1 Cor 15:20-24, 42-44, 51-54

1. There is a scriptural order by which things proceed.
2. Jesus was resurrected first, then the believing dead will be resurrected when he returns.
3. When the dead are resurrected at Jesus return they will not be the same as they have been.
4. Not everyone dies but all believers are changed.
4. The change occurs instantly. (The twinkling of an eye)
5. This happens when the last trumpet sounds.
6. Bodies of those who have perished or died will come to life.
7. Formerly dead and currently living will immediately have bodies which will live forever.
8. Glory will result from such a miracle.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:00 pm

Revelation 19, on the other hand, definitely mentions Jesus coming back to the earth in judgment. Furthermore, it indicates that his wife/bride is with him ALREADY and comes with him. Here is the summary of the Revelation 19 passage.

1) There is a great multitude which is excited about the marriage of Jesus.
2) Jesus wife has prepared herself.
3) Jesus wife is with him and has been supplied new clothing.
4) The new clothing that Jesus wife wears is fine linen.
5) The new clothing that Jesus wife wears is clean and white.
6) The new clothing that Jesus’ wife wears represents the righteousness of the saints.
7) There is a blessing which is associated with all those who have been invited to the marriage supper of Jesus and his wife.

8) Heaven is opened and Jesus is sitting on a white horse
9) Jesus purpose is to judge and make war in righteousness.
10) Jesus eyes are like flames.
11) Jesus has many crowns on his head.
12) Jesus has a special name that no one knows except him.
13) The clothing that he wears has been dipped in blood.
14) He is called by the name: “the Word of God.”
15) He is followed as he rides out of heaven by the armies in heaven.
16) These armies are wearing the same clothing as Jesus’ afore mentioned wife.
17) They are clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
18) Jesus is going out to judge the nations and his tongue is seen as a sharp sword.
19) Jesus will discipline the nations with his rod which is made of iron.
20) He will meet out judgment to those who deserve it. It is characterized like stomping grapes in a winepress.
21) He is paying back the enemies of God by wrath.
22) His title, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, is written on his garment and on his thigh.
23) An angel invites the birds to a supper supplied by God.
24) The birds are to eat the flesh of kings, commanders, strong ones, horses, riders, free men and slaves, small and great.
25) Many gather to fight against Jesus and his army. (Thank you Jay)
26) Included among those whose fight Jesus are: the beast, the false prophet, the kings of the earth and their armies..
27) Jesus wins: the following lose: the beast, the false prophet, those who took the mark of the beast, those who had worshiped the image of the beast.
28) The beast and the false prophet were captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire.
29) All of the rest were killed by Jesus sword which came out of Jesus mouth.
30) The birds were filled up.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:07 pm

Several other passages also indicate that believers will come back to earth with Jesus.

The following passage speaks of the beast's armies which will come against Jesus when he comes back, but notice those who come "with him"

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:12 pm

Another passage which speaks of believers coming with Jesus when he returns to the earth. Jude, when speaking of evil ones whom Jesus is coming to judge, makes the following statement.

Jud 1:14 Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, "Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of His holy ones
Jud 1:15 to execute judgment on the people of the world. He will convict every person of all the ungodly things they have done and for all the insults that ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:30 pm

Even the Apostle Paul knew that we would be with the Lord when he returns.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.


I have no illusions that anyone will necessarily reconsider their position or be convinced or will change their mind. But I do have one question for all those who hold to a single return or a great "U-turn" in one form or another. The question is this...


How did Jesus' wife/bride get into heaven (as Rev 19 states) if she will not be is not gathered to the Lord until he descends to earth later in the passage? And all the other small passages that indicate that believers come with Jesus to the earth, how did they get to be with him?
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby shorttribber on Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:51 pm

Ready1 wrote:I have no illusions that anyone will necessarily reconsider their position or be convinced or will change their mind. But I do have one question for all those who hold to a single return or a great "U-turn" in one form or another. The question is this...How did Jesus' wife/bride get into heaven (as Rev 19 states) if she will not be is not gathered to the Lord until he descends to earth later in the passage? And all the other small passages that indicate that believers come with Jesus to the earth, how did they get to be with him?


They are gathered into the clouds to me him in the air (That's how we get to the Heavens to meet him). THEN, they/we receive the Wedding Garments, Right then, Not seven years prior to the wedding. Then we return with him to the earth.

I am not sure why this idea is that complicated Ready 1.

My question is, why do you think that the wedding and the garments received are seven years prior to that? It's right in the text when the wedding occurs :dunno:

.............................................................................................................
Just want to add this too....regarding the "Uturn" analogy.

From another thread....

I think of it not as a Uturn...but a gathering of Beauty, Power, and Glory in the lower heavens that will be witnessed by all unbelievers!

I think it will be quite a spectacle! not the turning around of a car to go the other direction.

I realize that those who would disagree like to use the Uturn analogy to make this idea sound a little silly...or meaningless.

When it happens, I don't think it will be the least bit meaningless or silly though...it will be marvelous beyond comprehension! :banana: :bowing: :banana:

For the sake of expanding our thinking, try to imagine the saints, All the faithful from the beginning of creation being gathered in the lower heavens for Every EYE to SEE! Imagine Jesus so incredibly large that He appears in the Heavens as large as the Pacific Ocean! Now imagine Every Eye witnessing the Resurrection occurring and the Living saints transformed instantly into bright and shining glorious bodies ascending to meet the risen saints in the air/clouds.....a group so massive that this cloud of believers literally Cover the entire Earth!

What a Sight! Then the unbelievers are shaking beyond imagination when the entire group begins to Follow AFTER Christ who is then leading the whole bright and shining heavenly army back to Earth!

:banana: I think this ...so called UTURN will have it's desired Affect! :banana:

I realize also that this description is speculative...but putting all the texts of scripture together....I think it is possible to have things occur this way...just possibly.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:55 pm

Hello

I have previously argued that the beasts of Daniel 7 are wicked demonic heavenly hosts who have exercise their dominion/influence over the people of the earth and manifest the respective described characteristic of the beasts whose dominion they have chosen to inhabit.

I have also argued that in Daniel 7:1-12 there are four beasts operating with influence over the people on the face of the earth up to and until they are judged in heaven and that they are then thrown down to the earth and imprisoned for a time, e.g., 1,000 years, before they are released for the little while period where they will operate as a single unified beast with all of the characteristics of the four beasts as described in Daniel 7:1-12 before they are punished and destroyed. I have previously described the beast of Daniel 7:19ff as a four facetted beast where each of the facets provides a view of one of the four beasts as described in Daniel 7:1-12.

Now I have also argued that the beast of Revelation 13:1-10, rises out of the Bottomless pit when it is unlocked and this is confirmed to us in Revelation 17 where it states: -

Revelation 17:7-8: - 7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and goes to complete destruction.


The description of the beast in Rev 17 is also the same beast in Rev 13 and the respective descriptions confirm this: -

Rev 17: - the beast . . . which has the seven heads and the ten horns the beast that you saw was, and is not

Rev 13: - a beast rising out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns

Where the description in both chapters match such that we can state that the beast of Rev 13:1-10 will rise up out of the Bottomless pit.

Rev 13 also matches with Daniel 7: -

Rev 13: - the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed.

Dan 7:1-8: -
. . The first was like a lion, . . . . a second, like a bear . . . another, like a leopard, . . . .which . . . also had four heads . . . . a fourth beast . . . with . . . huge iron teeth . . . .it had ten horns

And in Daniel 7:15-20: . . . the great beast(s), which are four, are four kings . . . . which arise out of the earth . . . . . . the four facetted beast . . . . with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze . . . . the ten horns that were on its head . . . which was one of seven heads.

Links Daniel 7:1-8 with the four facetted beast, of Daniel 7:19ff and Revelation 13:1-10. The description in Dan 7:1-12 presents a picture of four beasts with a total of 7 heads and ten horn between them, as is described in Daniel 7:19-20 with Revelation 13:1-10.

Now to address Revelation 17:14

Revelation 17:12-14: - 12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."


To discover who those are with Christ and are called chosen and faithful, we need to look at Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:11-14: - 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.


Those who are called chosen and faithful are the holy heavenly hosts, i.e. the angels, who will fight against Satan and the angels who followed him and they will overcome Satan and the fallen and wicked heaven host, i.e. angels who follow Satan in Heaven, in our near future and Satan and these angels that follow him will be cast down to the earth at that time and locked up in the bottomless pit.

Christ told His Disciples to watch and pray as the end times unfold. He also told us that we will overcome Satan and the Beast and the False prophet by the Blood of the Lamb.

Rev 17:14 is not pointing at people as I see it.

Shalom
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:29 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Ready1 wrote:I have no illusions that anyone will necessarily reconsider their position or be convinced or will change their mind. But I do have one question for all those who hold to a single return or a great "U-turn" in one form or another. The question is this...How did Jesus' wife/bride get into heaven (as Rev 19 states) if she will not be is not gathered to the Lord until he descends to earth later in the passage? And all the other small passages that indicate that believers come with Jesus to the earth, how did they get to be with him?

They are gathered into the clouds to me him in the air (That's how we get to the Heavens to meet him). THEN, they/we receive the Wedding Garments, Right then, Not seven years prior to the wedding. Then we return with him to the earth.

I am not sure why this idea is that complicated Ready 1.

My question is, why do you think that the wedding and the garments received are seven years prior to that? It's right in the text when the wedding occurs :dunno:


Hi shorttribber. I think that I understand perfectly what you are saying. You are correct in that it is not complicated. The problem that I have with what you are saying is that it is NOT what Revelation 19 says.


1. First of all, I have not stated any time frames in this thread! I would challenge you to find anywhere that seven years has been mentioned. That is a figment of your thinking. What I am saying is that sometime prior to the time that Jesus comes back to the earth in power and great glory, he gathers his bride/church and it is in heaven with him.


2. Secondly you have not examined Rev 19 very well either. I will say it again.

1) There is a great multitude which is excited about the marriage of Jesus.
2) Jesus wife has prepared herself.
3) Jesus wife is with him and has been supplied new clothing.
4) The new clothing that Jesus wife wears is fine linen.
5) The new clothing that Jesus wife wears is clean and white.
6) The new clothing that Jesus’ wife wears represents the righteousness of the saints.
7) There is a blessing which is associated with all those who have been invited to the marriage supper of Jesus and his wife.


3. Please notice, shorttribber that this all occurs in Heaven BEFORE Heaven is opened and Jesus returns to the earth. Please read the passage and then tell me that Jesus wife/bride is not with him. That is NOT what the scripture says. I will certainly agree with you that "its right in the text when the wedding occurs."

For quick reference, here is the passage...
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


Actually I like this version too...

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad with delight, and let us give glory to him: because the time is come for the Lamb to be married, and his wife has made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her it was given to be clothed in delicate linen, clean and shining: for the clean linen is the righteousness of the saints.
Rev 19:9 And he said to me, Put in the book, Happy are the guests at the bride-feast of the Lamb. And he said to me, These are the true words of God.



Question: Who are the guests at the bride-feast of the Lamb?
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby shorttribber on Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:00 pm

Ready1 wrote:Question: Who are the guests at the bride-feast of the Lamb?


The Called are the Guests...just as it says in the King James you posted.

Here's another text that....agrees with Rev 19:11

It is Rev 11:19.............................11:19*19:11

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Ready1 wrote:3. Please notice, shorttribber that this all occurs in Heaven BEFORE Heaven is opened and Jesus returns to the earth. Please read the passage and then tell me that Jesus wife/bride is not with him. That is NOT what the scripture says. I will certainly agree with you that "its right in the text when the wedding occurs."


Ok....Regarding what is said when the heavens or could we say, the temple in heaven is opened, what are the words that are said in the two following texts? what must we do with these two texts as to the timing of this whole matter?

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.





4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

...............................................................................................................................................
I think the similarity in these texts make them very much in agreement that they do occur at the same time, and they are describing much of the same thing.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:20 pm

shorttribber wrote:I think the similarity in these texts make them very much in agreement that they do occur at the same time, and they are describing much of the same thing.


You have taken the clear teaching of scripture, Revelation 19: 7-9 which states precisely what it means, and obfuscated it with a scripture (Revelation 11:19) which does not even mention the marriage of the Lamb, let alone the timing or location of the event. Yet you somehow offer it as a textual proof that your viewpoint prevails.

I don’t understand how that is supposed to work. (Yes I grant you a similarity of wording 19:11 and 11:19, but it does not advance your argument with regard to the timing of the marriage of Lamb to me. Other than the fact that you SAY it does.)
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby shorttribber on Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:38 pm

Ready1 wrote:You have taken the clear teaching of scripture, Revelation 19: 7-9 which states precisely what it means, and obfuscated it with a scripture (Revelation 11:19) which does not even mention the marriage of the Lamb, let alone the timing or location of the event.


I don't believe I have done that.

Below is the definition of obfuscated.
Because the text of Rev 11:19 does not mention the marriage of the lamb specifically, does not make the text unintelligible or confusing when comparing the two sections of scripture and their similarities.

It is very common while comparing scripture with scripture to not have every point addressed in each variable text.


ob·fus·cate

past tense: obfuscated; past participle: obfuscated

render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible.
"the spelling changes will deform some familiar words and obfuscate their etymological origins"
synonyms: obscure, confuse, make unclear, blur, muddle, complicate, overcomplicate, muddy, cloud, befog
"mere rationalizations to obfuscate rather than clarify the real issue"
antonyms: clarify
•bewilder (someone).
"it is more likely to obfuscate people than enlighten them"
synonyms: bewilder, mystify, puzzle, perplex, confuse, baffle, confound, bemuse, befuddle, nonplus; informalflummox
"her work became more and more obfuscated by mathematics and jargon"

Ready1 wrote: Yet you somehow offer it as a textual proof that your viewpoint prevails.

I did no such thing...I offered it for all readers for their own comparison.....did I mention anything about my position prevailing?

Ready1 wrote:I don’t understand how that is supposed to work. (Yes I grant you a similarity of wording 19:11 and 11:19, but it does not advance your argument with regard to the timing of the marriage of Lamb to me. Other than the fact that you SAY it does.)


I would say it is evidence rather than proof....it's ok if you disagree.
Last edited by shorttribber on Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:25 pm

I'll just disagree then. :grin: :grin: :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: Christ's Return

Postby shorttribber on Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:21 am

I would like to provide what I believe is an excellent example of what I stated below...

shorttribber wrote:It is very common while comparing scripture with scripture to not have every point addressed in each variable text.

My comment above was addressing your comment here Ready 1...
Ready1 wrote:You have taken the clear teaching of scripture, Revelation 19: 7-9 which states precisely what it means, and obfuscated it with a scripture (Revelation 11:19) which does not even mention the marriage of the Lamb, let alone the timing or location of the event.


My main point is to show that...
A. Because Rev11 "does not even mention the marriage of the Lamb"
and
B. Because Rev 11 does not mention "the timing or location of the event"

Above A and B does not ALSO mean that these two texts are NOT speaking of the same Events.

Now for the example I mentioned above....
....................................................................................................................................................
1Thes.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
...............................................................................................................................................

1 Cor.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

..............................................................................................................................................

Where do we find in Thes. where the timing, such as the last trump, is mentioned?
Where do we find in Cor. where it is said that Christ brings the saints With him?
Where do we find in Cor. that we are caught up into the clouds of the air?
where do we find in Thes that we shall be instantly changed from mortality to immortality?
Where do we find the voice of the Archangel in Cor.?

I could go on to add more probably.

I hope though that my point is made.

We do compare scripture with scripture, and in doing so we find Many details that are In one text that may not be also In another that speak of THE SAME EVENT.

Or....does anyone think that 1Thes 4 and 1Cor 15 are not speaking of the SAME EVENT?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:39 am

Ready1

I have a question for you.

In Rev 19:4, who or what are the four beasts? Where do we read about the four beasts else where in Scripture?

Shalom
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Re: Christ's Return

Postby Ready1 on Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:13 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Ready1

I have a question for you.

In Rev 19:4, who or what are the four beasts? Where do we read about the four beasts else where in Scripture?

Shalom


Sorry Jay, I have been out of the area over Christmas. This would be my answer: Supernatural heavenly beings created by the Lord for His glory. They are mentioned multiple times in Revelation. I don't think that they are the same as the living creatures of Ezekiel.

Rev 4:6  And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 4:8  And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev 5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 5:14  And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 6:1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Rev 6:6  And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Rev 7:11  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 14:3  And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 15:7  And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Rev 19:4  And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.


Is this your understanding as well?
Just observing.

E.
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