The State: Part I

[brett]

.
Someone tell me what Judaism believes about Jesus Christ please.

.

I thought you knew already, I thought we all did.

Yes but strangely no one likes to talk about it or focus on it ! Can anyone see a dangerous PROGRAMMED BIAS here?

Christians have been programmed to IGNORE the truth about Judaism. This is the fruit of Zionist propaganda in the churches. So Christians must never talk truthfully about Judaism. Christians have been PROGRAMMED to just focus on the faults of the other bad religions and ignore the differences between Christianity and Judaism.


.

[keithareilly]

.
Someone tell me what Judaism believes about Jesus Christ please.

.

I thought you knew already, I thought we all did.

Yes but strangely no one likes to talk about it or focus on it ! Can anyone see a dangerous PROGRAMMED BIAS here?

Christians have been programmed to IGNORE the truth about Judaism. This is the fruit of Zionist propaganda. So Christians must never talk truthfully about Judaism. Just focus on the other bad religions.


.

I don't think so Brett. I think we all are aware how the Orthodox Jews treat Christians.
They are still enslaved. So are the Muslims.

Were I in Israel and announcing Christ on the street, I expect I would be assaulted by a mob just as if I were in Saudi Arabi.

Keith

[shorttribber]

We have been talking about Judaism. And the blindness of them that believe it...Paul talked about it a lot, in Romans....we have discussed it at length.

Have you proven yet when Israel, according to you, will be graft back in to the Faithful House of Abraham?
I don't think you have. Did I miss that?

I think that grafting in is an ongoing process for some now, and come to a Completion During the Great trib.

[brett]

I don't think so Brett. I think we all are aware how the Orthodox Jews treat Christians.
They are still enslaved. So are the Muslims.

Were I in Israel and announcing Christ on the street, I expect I would be assaulted by a mob just as if I were in Saudi Arabi.

Keith

Ok - at least you acknowledge that - I appreciate your honesty.

.

[shorttribber]

indecently, I think we should discuss the meaning of "the fullness of the Gentiles come in".

Maybe another thread....and I think it's been discussed, but I learned something about that phrase that I had not before considered.

In short....no pun intended

The "Fullness of the Gentiles" is, in reality, the "Fullness" of the Faithful Jews....or you might say....the "Fullness" of the "Israel of God".

These few sentences might get marks to chime in

Just say'n

[shorttribber]

Oh Oh.....is keith gone!

[Jay Ross]

ST

indecently, I think we should discuss the meaning of "the fullness of the Gentiles come in".

Maybe another thread....and I think it's been discussed, but I learned something about that phrase that I had not before considered.

In short....no pun intended

The "Fullness of the Gentiles" is, in reality, the "Fullness" of the Faithful Jews....or you might say....the "Fullness" of the "Israel of God".

These few sentences might get marks to chime in

Just say'n

You were involved in or more correctly inserted yourself into the discussion on this very topic, and you tried to prove that the "Gentiles" were "Christian Gentiles" who were "coming in" by suggesting that I go to the first occurrence of the Greek word used in Romans 11: 25 for Gentiles, i.e. ἐθνῶν.

And when we did that, we ended up at Matthew 4:15: -

Matthew 4:15: -

15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:

Which was a quote from Isaiah 11:1 which says: -

Isaiah 9:1: -

9:1 Nevertheless the gloom will not be upon her who is distressed,
As when at first He lightly esteemed
The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
And afterward more heavily oppressed her,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
In Galilee of the Gentiles.

And when we then look at the first occurrence of the Hebrew word used Gentiles in Isaiah 9:1, i.e. הַגּוֹיִֽם , when find that it occurs in Genesis 10:5 which provides the following: -

Genesis 10:2-5: - 2 The sons of Japheth were Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer were Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 The sons of Javan were Elishah, Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these the coastland peoples of the Gentiles were separated into their lands, everyone according to his language, according to their families, into their nations.

At which point you left the conversation.

Now you are introducing a "red herring" into this thread/conversation.

I would like to see your first occurrence of the Greek word used in Romans 11: 25 for Gentiles, i.e. ἐθνῶν, to back up your new view on the Romans 11:25b: - " that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

It would seem to me that Romans 11:25b does not support the view expressed, in the quote above, at all. But please start a new thread and discuss the view. It might prove beneficial.

[shorttribber]

I remember a discussion about the topic jay, but it might have been another person, it could have been David maybe that brought out the first use of the word gentile....I think....I can't remember.

I wasn't trying to introduce anything new into this thread, that's why I said another thread would be good.

really though, I haven't the time to do that right now....
so you can continue to believe as you do.

[Jay Ross]

I remember a discussion about the topic jay, but it might have been another person, it could have been David maybe that brought out the first use of the word gentile....I think....I can't remember.

I wasn't trying to introduce anything new into this thread, that's why I said another thread would be good.

really though, I haven't the time to do that right now....
so you can continue to believe as you do.

And you also.

Have a good day now.

[keithareilly]

Brett,

Romans 11:28-29
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

In the first part of verse 28, we see confirmation that the Jews are enemies of the Gospel. This is still true today. So, if I were to preach Christ on the streets of Israel I would be assaulted by the Jews. Most of us understand this is absolutely true.

The second part of verse 28 and in verse 29, we see that even though they are enemies of the Gospel, they are still loved by God. They are loved by God, not because of their belief, but because God chooses to love them for the sake of their fathers.

This is difficult for we humans reconcile. In the Jewish Roman wars, God nearly wiped the Jews from the planet. Today, we would call what happened then Genocide as so many Jews were killed during the Jewish Roman wars. Only a remnant of the Jewish population was left and they were scattered over the face of the earth, not even allowed in Jerusalem but once a year. God left the Jews scattered them amongst populations that would hate them. The Jewish Roman wars and even The Holocaust is an example of how they have been treated by God because of their rejection of Christ.

Does God establish and use evil nations and people? Absolutely! Hitler is an example of just such a thing.

Do I think the establishment of Israel is such a thing? No. Why? Because we know one day the Jews would be brought home and that this would mark the end of them being under wrath do to rejection of Christ. We also know prophecy says that home would be established in one day and it was.

Do the Jews still reject Christ? Most definitely; but, now we are seeing the second part of verse 28 and verse 29 being expressed by God instead of God's wrath due to the first part. They are being given a home away from those to whom God scattered them. When their neighbors wage war upon them, God shows his neighbors, and all people, they can no longer treat the Jews as God authorized nearly 2000 years. That authorization has been revoked and this is evidenced by the establishment and the upholding of modern Israel.

For nearly 2000 years God waged war on the Jewish people for their rejection of Christ. Since 1948, we see evidence God now sides with the Jewish people defending them from their enemies instead of turning them over to their enemies. Both of God's behaviors line up with these two verse in Roman 11.

Keith

[Exit40]

For our consideration...

Rom 11:7 ¶ What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 ¶ And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 ¶ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Israel is still seeking their Promised Messiah. Promised by the very God we worship.

God Bless

David

[keithareilly]

David,

Yes, It is good for us to remember God blinded the Jewish for ours benefit.
Most people do not consider that God established the Jewish nation for the purpose of crucifying Christ to free all mankind from enslavement to sin.

God blinded them. They did not blind themselves.

King David would not attack King Saul, for, even though Saul was disobediant and David was anointed, Saul was still an anointed of God. Just as reign was taken from the Jews and given to Christians, we should remember to not attack the Jews, those annointed to suffer wrath for our benefit.

Keith

[shorttribber]

For our consideration...

Rom 11:7 ¶ What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 ¶ And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 ¶ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Israel is still seeking their Promised Messiah. Promised by the very God we worship.

God Bless

David

David,

Yes, It is good for us to remember God blinded the Jewish for ours benefit.
Most people do not consider that God established the Jewish nation for the purpose of crucifying Christ to free all mankind from enslavement to sin.

God blinded them. They did not blind themselves.

King David would not attack King Saul, for, even though Saul was disobediant and David was anointed, Saul was still an anointed of God. Just as reign was taken from the Jews and given to Christians, we should remember to not attack the Jews, those annointed to suffer wrath for our benefit.

Keith

and

[brett]

.
For lack of time, my response is this - watch this 2 minute video to explain the sinister problem with modern Israel:

https://youtu.be/RVGDDHjeKI4


.

[keithareilly]

Brett,

We disagree; so be it.

Here is a quote from my favorite president, Lincoln.

“If the end brings me out all right, what is said against me won't amount to anything. If the end brings me out wrong, then ten angels swearing I was right would make no difference.”


Keith

[brett]

.
Also note Keith the KJV words it differently

Romans 11:28-29 (KJV)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


This scripture is not saying TODAYS UNSAVED (Christ rejecting) JEWS are somehow all going to be SUDDENLY SAVED.

At the rapture there will be a RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. All the SAVED Israelites throughout ALL history will be resurrected - the LITERAL 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL will come back to life - THEY will INHERIT the Land of Israel with Jesus as King over them in the millennium. The Christ rejecting Jews living in Israel TODAY are not saved and will not be saved, the vast majority of them. They will not inherit the land of Israel - they are unbelievers.

.

[brett]

.
Some more on this verse to help you Keith:


Romans 11:28-29 (KJV)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


They are beloved for the father's sakes - is for the sakes of the fathers of Israel - Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. Saying they are "Loved" does not mean they are SAVED. Consider this verse:

John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Because God says he loved the world - does NOT mean EVERYONE in the world is SAVED or ELECT.

This is God saying He loves the Jews, which is true, but God loves ALL people of the world. That does not mean ALL people on the world get SAVED. Being Loved doesn't mean being SAVED, being loved doesn't mean going to heaven.

It's like if you are a FATHER who is SAVED and your child is not saved. For the sake of YOU (who is SAVED) that child of yours which is UNSAVED is loved, but the choice of that child receiving Jesus or not is up to that child - they can be loved - but that does not mean they will be SAVED. God will send people into that child's life to try to save them but that doesn't mean they will be saved. God sent the prophets to the Jews over and over again - because they were loved, but they still rejected them, so despite the love - they remained UNSAVED. The choice of salvation - of accepting Jesus is up to each person to make for themselves, God can do so much - but its up to the person themselves to make the decision.

Modern Jews (followers of Judaism) reject Jesus and as such they are loved (God still tries to reach them - as God tries to reach gentiles too) but the reality is the vast majority will not convert to Christianity - just like Israel rejected the prophets etc in the past. A person is ONLY part of the "ELECT" if they are SAVED if they are a CHRISTIAN. A follower of Judaism may be loved but they are not saved - they only become saved if they convert to Christianity and believe upon Christ. I don't see that happening too much in modern Israel today - they still reject the gospel.

.

[keithareilly]

Brett,

"28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

This verse is saying that Abraham's genetic decedents, even though they are enemies concerning the gospel, are still part of the elect for their father's sake. Furthermore, this point is emphasized by saying in verse 29 that God does not turn from keeping His word, even after establishing a new covenant were those who were not decedents can participate in the promise by becoming decedents.

"29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Keith

[brett]

Brett,

"28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

This verse is saying that Abraham's genetic decedents, even though they are enemies concerning the gospel, are still part of the elect for their father's sake. Furthermore, this point is emphasized by saying in verse 29 that God does not turn from keeping His word, even after establishing a new covenant were those who were not decedents can participate in the promise by becoming decedents.

"29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Keith

No this verse does NOT say that. For if that were the case an evil Israelite could be elect even though they serve satan all their life, like the Israelites that worshipped Baal.

The problem with your position Keith is that you're failing to see that genetics does not determine election or salvation. Belief in Jesus Christ is what determines salvation. What you're believing is actually a very racist belief, that a certain genetic race is superior to all others and is elect purely because of race (genetics). That's the kind of thing Hitler believed.

.

[mark s]

Jesus is returning to save the Jews in Israel.

Are there Jews in Israel?

I guess that's the question.

But Jesus seems to think so.

Much love,
Mark

[brett]

Jesus is returning to save the Jews in Israel.

Are there Jews in Israel?

I guess that's the question.

But Jesus seems to think so.

Much love,
Mark

The elect are those who are SAVED. Christ Rejecting Jews are not SAVED and an UNSAVED person cannot be elect. An UNSAVED person can be loved by God, but they need to believe upon Jesus Christ to be SAVED and to be the ELECT.

It's a delusional fantasy to believe that all Christ Rejecting Jews living in Israel today will sudden convert on MASS at the last minute when they see Christ in the clouds. This will not happen. Yes they will wail, but not for Christ, they will wail for themselves, with the rest of the wicked, as they realise God's Wrath is coming upon them, at that moment it will be too late.

.

[mark s]

It has been stated on FP by several members, including myself, that we believe that the modern (Zionist) state of Israel (here after called the State) is not God's gathering of His people back to the land, but of Satan. The first in a series, I hope to dispel the myths surrounding the State.

There are many controversial questions regarding the founding of the State. Here are some basic ones:

#1: How does God gather His people? Will He gather them in unbelief? Does He gather them all in one day? Or is it a long process spanning over 100 years?

God has prophecies in several places speaking of the regathering of the Israelites from the nations when Jesus returns.

But there are also prophecies in several places of Jesus returning to save the Israelites in Jerusalem, and in Edom, apparently having fled from Judea.

So there must be Israelites living in Judea when Jesus returns. Hmm.

[shorttribber]

It's a delusional fantasy to believe that all Christ Rejecting Jews living in Israel today will sudden convert on MASS at the last minute when they see Christ in the clouds.

This is true Probably, but not Absolutely.
I do think the conversion of many, Many Real Foreknown and Called to be Elect Jews will call on God and be saved....but not at one Moment when Christ is seen in the clouds.

It could occur all through the entire length of the great trib...the 3.5 years that is

[mark s]

It has been stated on FP by several members, including myself, that we believe that the modern (Zionist) state of Israel (here after called the State) is not God's gathering of His people back to the land, but of Satan. The first in a series, I hope to dispel the myths surrounding the State.

There are many controversial questions regarding the founding of the State. Here are some basic ones:

#3: Why does God refer to the Jews in Rev. 2:9 as the "Synagogue of Satan"?

(skipping #2 for the moment)

Please show me where this verse calls "the Jews" the "Synagogue of Satan".

What I read talks about those who say they are Jews but are not.

Are you thinking that means that there are no actual Jews? Or that all who call themselves Jews are not? Because that wouldn't be logical.

That would be like saying, those who call themselves Doctors and are not, but are followers of Satan. It wouldn't mean that all who carry the title Doctor are false.

Much love,
Mark

[Looking4acity]

It has been stated on FP by several members, including myself, that we believe that the modern (Zionist) state of Israel (here after called the State) is not God's gathering of His people back to the land, but of Satan. The first in a series, I hope to dispel the myths surrounding the State.

There are many controversial questions regarding the founding of the State. Here are some basic ones:

#3: Why does God refer to the Jews in Rev. 2:9 as the "Synagogue of Satan"?

(skipping #2 for the moment)

Please show me where this verse calls "the Jews" the "Synagogue of Satan".

Ok. We will go over this again. First, we need to ask the question who is a Jew? These people in the Synagogue of Satan say they are Jews but God says they are not. Why? Because God says what makes a Jew is not one outwardly (physically descended) but is one inwardly, being circumcised of the heart, their faith counting them righteous. And obviously they are not circumcised of the heart if they are of the Synagogue of Satan. It looks liks these people are of the Tribe of Judah though.

What I read talks about those who say they are Jews but are not.

Are you thinking that means that there are no actual Jews?

That is the huge point I am making. A Jew is saved by the blood of Jesus. So, there would be very few Jews in Israel today, which is also the reason why today's Israel is fake. God will not be gathering a nation in unbelief. When He does, the government will be righteous as well.

Or that all who call themselves Jews are not? Because that wouldn't be logical.

That would be like saying, those who call themselves Doctors and are not, but are followers of Satan. It wouldn't mean that all who carry the title Doctor are false.

Much love,
Mark

[mark s]

It has been stated on FP by several members, including myself, that we believe that the modern (Zionist) state of Israel (here after called the State) is not God's gathering of His people back to the land, but of Satan. The first in a series, I hope to dispel the myths surrounding the State.

There are many controversial questions regarding the founding of the State. Here are some basic ones:

#3: Why does God refer to the Jews in Rev. 2:9 as the "Synagogue of Satan"?

(skipping #2 for the moment)

Please show me where this verse calls "the Jews" the "Synagogue of Satan".

Ok. We will go over this again. First, we need to ask the question who is a Jew?

Answering a question with a question.

Hmmm.

Fact is, this verse does not call "The Jews" the "Synagogue of Satan".

So . . . would you care to re-phrase your #3?

What I read talks about those who say they are Jews but are not.

Are you thinking that means that there are no actual Jews?

That is the huge point I am making. A Jew is saved by the blood of Jesus.

Scripture Please.

John 19 NASB
13Therefore when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold, your King!” 15So they cried out, “Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”

I actually have quite a number of choices for Scriptures on this one. If I use the Bible for my terminology, my definition, The Bible, then "the Jews" rejected Jesus before Pilate.

Much love,
Mark

[Resurrection Torchlight]

It's a delusional fantasy to believe that all Christ Rejecting Jews living in Israel today will sudden convert on MASS

Why?
Do you believe that God cannot cause this to happen?
Weren't we all once sons of disobedience?

RT

[mark s]

#4: Why does Rev. 11:8 refer to Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt"?

Actually, the Bible calls Jerusalem and the Israelites some rather unflattering things over the course of history.

So. How does that mean that they are not Jews? Israelites? Seems to me that the Bible continues to call them Jews while also calling them other things. Do I need to go hunting into the OT? I believe Ezekiel would be a good starting point. Or Isaiah. Or maybe Jeremiah. I think it's kind of all over the major prophets.

#5: Why would the 2 witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem for 3 and 1/2 years while people there try/want to kill them?

Scripture Please. That is, Scripture that your reason is correct.

Seems to me a lot of people might want to kill the prophets, given the Biblical Fact that they will be able to strike the earth with plagues.

Revelation 11:6 NASB

These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

Just might make some people mad. Just sayin'.

#6: If God gathered the Jews to the State, why would He allow the Rothschilds to build the Knesset and Israeli Supreme Court Building filled with Illuminati symbols and Masonic meaning?

Well . . . a question with a question . . . sauce for the goose and all that you know . . . .

Um . . . are there Christians in America?

I mean, I've seen the charts and pics and stuff of all the "Illuminati" and "Masonic" symbols and designs. Why would God allow that?? Aren't there Christians in America?

#7: When God gathers His children, are they immediately safe and secure? Does God immediately begin His rule? Or must they struggle for their existence for decades? Do they require financial aid to exist? Do they require a huge military aid package from other countries to defend themselves? Do they gain possession of the land, i.e. Jerusalem and Gaza, only later to have to give some up to enemies?

Ah! The Gathering!

Yes, Jesus, when He returns, sends His angels to gather them all.

But . . . in the meanwhile . . . Jesus returns to save . . . the Jews in Israel and Edom. So that means they are there. That would be those who were unable to escape the great tribulation, and those who were able to flee to the wilderness.

#8: When God gathers His people in the last of days, must they first cleanse the land of people with war and terrorism?

Please see response to #7

These questions should be enough to raise the slightest doubt. I believe we actually know most of the answers but have been taught to ignore and avoid them.

Actually, I've considered these questions very carefully. I'm wondering, have you?

There are so many logical issues with even this short of a list.

Much love,
Mark

[mark s]

It's a delusional fantasy to believe that all Christ Rejecting Jews living in Israel today will sudden convert on MASS

Why?
Do you believe that God cannot cause this to happen?
Weren't we all once sons of disobedience?

RT

And besides, who says every Jew living in Israel right now will be saved?

The Bible says many will perish. But those who remain, they will be rescued.

No delusional fantasy.

Hey! A whole bunch of people just got labeled delusional. Myself included. So, now I'm a delusional occultist, according to these thread.

Wow! It's been a big day for me!



Much love,
Mark

[shorttribber]

[Looking4acity]

#4: Why does Rev. 11:8 refer to Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt"?

Actually, the Bible calls Jerusalem and the Israelites some rather unflattering things over the course of history.

So. How does that mean that they are not Jews? Israelites? Seems to me that the Bible continues to call them Jews while also calling them other things. Do I need to go hunting into the OT? I believe Ezekiel would be a good starting point. Or Isaiah. Or maybe Jeremiah. I think it's kind of all over the major prophets.

#5: Why would the 2 witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem for 3 and 1/2 years while people there try/want to kill them?

Scripture Please. That is, Scripture that your reason is correct.

Seems to me a lot of people might want to kill the prophets, given the Biblical Fact that they will be able to strike the earth with plagues.

Revelation 11:6 NASB

These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

Just might make some people mad. Just sayin'.

#6: If God gathered the Jews to the State, why would He allow the Rothschilds to build the Knesset and Israeli Supreme Court Building filled with Illuminati symbols and Masonic meaning?

Well . . . a question with a question . . . sauce for the goose and all that you know . . . .

Um . . . are there Christians in America?

I mean, I've seen the charts and pics and stuff of all the "Illuminati" and "Masonic" symbols and designs. Why would God allow that?? Aren't there Christians in America?

#7: When God gathers His children, are they immediately safe and secure? Does God immediately begin His rule? Or must they struggle for their existence for decades? Do they require financial aid to exist? Do they require a huge military aid package from other countries to defend themselves? Do they gain possession of the land, i.e. Jerusalem and Gaza, only later to have to give some up to enemies?

Ah! The Gathering!

Yes, Jesus, when He returns, sends His angels to gather them all.

But . . . in the meanwhile . . . Jesus returns to save . . . the Jews in Israel and Edom. So that means they are there. That would be those who were unable to escape the great tribulation, and those who were able to flee to the wilderness.

#8: When God gathers His people in the last of days, must they first cleanse the land of people with war and terrorism?

Please see response to #7

These questions should be enough to raise the slightest doubt. I believe we actually know most of the answers but have been taught to ignore and avoid them.

Actually, I've considered these questions very carefully. I'm wondering, have you?

There are so many logical issues with even this short of a list.

Much love,
Mark

It is obvious by your condescension that truly you do not want to understand my position, so I will not waste my time, or yours, any further trying to explain it to you. And i must add that it is especially unbecoming of a moderator.



To others who may want to understand but feel too intimidated to post, feel free to send a pm. I'll get back with you as soon as possible.

[keithareilly]

Brett,

"28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

This verse is saying that Abraham's genetic decedents, even though they are enemies concerning the gospel, are still part of the elect for their father's sake. Furthermore, this point is emphasized by saying in verse 29 that God does not turn from keeping His word, even after establishing a new covenant were those who were not decedents can participate in the promise by becoming decedents.

"29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Keith

No this verse does NOT say that. For if that were the case an evil Israelite could be elect even though they serve satan all their life, like the Israelites that worshipped Baal.

The problem with your position Keith is that you're failing to see that genetics does not determine election or salvation. Belief in Jesus Christ is what determines salvation. What you're believing is actually a very racist belief, that a certain genetic race is superior to all others and is elect purely because of race (genetics). That's the kind of thing Hitler believed.

.

Well, Brett, I think we are done. I feel sorry for you.

Keith

[Looking4acity]

:snack:

You had stated this in the thread of "When Will Israel Be Divided?:

"The promises to Abraham will be completed for the REAL and Faithful State of Israel, despite the Modern Day "Unholy Zionist Zealots".

What changed your mind about the Unholy Zionist Zealots?

[brett]

It's a delusional fantasy to believe that all Christ Rejecting Jews living in Israel today will sudden convert on MASS

Why?
Do you believe that God cannot cause this to happen?
Weren't we all once sons of disobedience?

RT

Here's why its a delusional fantasy:

(1) There is NO record of this in the book of Revelation, the primary prophetic book of the New Testament. Why does something so significant not appear in the Book of Revelation?
(2) This mythical mass conversion of Last Day Jews is INVENTED by twisting Old Testament prophecies (namely Zechariah 12) and wrongly bringing them FORWARD to modern day. Zechariah 12 is NOT about Last Day modern Israel, its about the first Old Israel and Christs 1st coming, Zechariah 12 has ALREADY been fulfilled.

Now for some scripture:

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 16
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
..........
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


So modern Jews are going to REJECT the Word of God, REJECT the Gospel, REJECT missionaries, REJECT preaching, and then SUDDENLY they will SEE Him and Believe? Salvation by SIGHT? The Jews said to Jesus when He was on the cross:

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe.......

Matthew 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

That's the ONLY sign that will be given to the Jews, the DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ.

Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Its not the Last Days Jews seeing Jesus in the clouds or on a white horse that is the power of salvation - its the GOSPEL that is the Power unto SALVATION.

People get SAVED through the Word of God. Believing on the DEATH BURIAL and RESURRECTION of JESUS CHRIST. And that's the only sign given to the Jews.

1 Corinthians 1
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


This mythical Last Days conversion of the modern nation of Israel is an UTTER FANTASY. If they reject the Gospel now, reject the Word of God now, they will reject even SIGNS.

Matthew 19
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


The MILLENNIAL Israel will be filled with RESURRECTED (regenerated) OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS NOT CHRIST REJECTING JEWS THAT LIVE IN MODERN ISRAEL TODAY. All the prophecies about Israel being restored again, being brought back into the land are about RESURRECTED OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS BEING REUNITED WITH EACH OTHER IN THE MILLENNIUM. All the multiple millions of Jews that ever lived all through history - only a portion of these are saved. These are the "Jews" (Old Testament saints) that will INHERIT the LAND and that's when CHRIST RULES OVER THEM in the MILLENNIUM. And the 12 disciples will rule over the LITERAL 12 tribes of Israel - because they will be RESURRECTED from the dead. The Christ rejecting Jews in modern Israel today are not the 12 Tribes.

So all Israel shall be saved - at the start of the MILLENNIUM - and the Israel that will be saved is the BELIEVING portion over ALL OF HISTORY, Old Testament Saints, not modern Christ Rejecting Jews that just happen to live in modern Israel today.

The 144,000 in Revelation are the LITERAL 12 Tribes of Israel that are RESURRECTED from the dead.

I have to go now, but I believe I have covered this in enough detail.

God Bless.

.

[mark s]

OK.

I'm not going to sit here while you broad brush the lot of us who disagree as delusional.

Or racist.

And to Lookingforacity,

Rather than address my points, you've elected to attack my person. Rather telling in my opinion.