The State: Part I

[Looking4acity]

“After the LORD your God has done this for you, don’t say in your hearts, ‘The LORD has given us this land because we are such good people!’ No, it is because of the wickedness of the other nations that he is pushing them out of your way.

It is not because you are so good or have such integrity that you are about to occupy their land. The LORD your God will drive these nations out ahead of you only because of their wickedness, and to fulfill the oath he swore to your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (Deu 9:4-5)

Note the above passage mentions nothing about faith. The conquest of Canaan had to do with judging the Canaanite nations for their wickedness, and for honoring the covenant God made with Abraham and his descendants. However, retaining control of the promised land was conditional on their obedience. They were specifically told not to follow their practices or worship their gods, but to destroy them completely. Well, they didn't do this and God had to keep sending judges to deliver them.

Note these verses are AFTER the 40 years. You still ignore Heb. 3:19. Please read Hebrew 3:6-19 and 4:1-2. And Numbers 13:27-14:34. Hopefully this will help.

Are we to then believe that every person who entered in was a believer?

I think it's telling that Joshua sent only two spies, when Mosses sent tweleve spies. I think he didn't want to risk another negative report. In any case, given Israel's repeated rebellion in the Old Testament, I find it hard to beleive that everyone who entered Canaan was a believer. And what about the 32,000 Midianite girls they captured prior in Numbers 31? Where they also beleivers?

I do no know about the prisoners. But Hebrews 4:2 takes away all doubt about the Children of Israel: "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well AS UNTO THEM: BUT THE WORD DID NOT PROFIT THEM, NOT BEING MIXED WITH FAITH IN THEM THAT HEARD IT."

[Looking4acity]

Romans 11
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graff them in again
[/color]

It is pretty evident by these scriptures that rulling out the Jews for lack of faith in Christ is a mistake.

Read the above I edited out of your quote. "THEY WERE BROKEN OFF FOR THEIR UNBELIEF." And God can graft them in again if they don't continue in it. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

[shorttribber]

"THEY WERE BROKEN OFF FOR THEIR UNBELIEF." And God can graft them in again if they don't continue in it. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

Correct Looking. What you have not show though is WHEN that Grafting back in Would Begin. It began already IMO.
Can you prove that it hasn't? Can you prove that it occurs All at Once....or by a process of time, and therefore, little by little?

[brett]

Hello all,

Happy New Year !

For the most part I agree with you looking4acity. However these forums are pretty stacked in favour of modern Israel.....the propaganda by zionists has been running for decades now.......its hard tackling this issue. But I agree fully that Modern Israel is not Gods people. Its absurd that people will stick to this idea that a certain ethnic group are favoured because of their genetics. Its like a form of Christian approved racism.....I find it really weird how this stuff is so readily believed by Christians. Its tied in with patriotism.....its sadly a misguided loyalty to a modern nation that is really quite corrupt. The key probkem is most Christians don't seem to detect they are being tricked into supporting a modern political movement. The whole thing is politically motivated and has nothing to do with God.
.

[Jay Ross]

"THEY WERE BROKEN OFF FOR THEIR UNBELIEF." And God can graft them in again if they don't continue in it. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

Correct Looking. What you have not show though is WHEN that Grafting back in Would Begin. It began already IMO.
Can you prove that it hasn't? Can you prove that it occurs All at Once....or by a process of time, and therefore, little by little?

The time of Jacob's trouble are still continuing and Israel is still involved in idolatrous worship at this present time.

At the time of Armageddon, Israel will seek Jesus' terms of peace and will abide by His terms and repent of their iniquities and they will all be saved on the day when they collectively chose to repent. This is corporate Israel, just as it was corporate Israel at MT Sinai who entered into the Covenant of a Kingdm of Priests and a Holy Nation with God back then. Now the rebellion at that time was not all of the people in the camp. But because there was a rebellion, then all of Israel rebelled.

ST believes that the grafting in has already begun but he provides only his opinion that it has without any evidence.

Corporately all of Israel will be saved in a day. Individually, each person in the camp of the Israelites are required to repent of their iniquities at this time and that may be a process where each Israelite is challenged to repent of their individual sins. How long will this take? Just like us it is a process as they begin to learn, taught by God how to be holy.

Shalom

[shorttribber]

At the time of Armageddon, Israel will seek Jesus' terms of peace and will abide by His terms and repent of their iniquities and they will all be saved on the day when they collectively chose to repent.................

Corporately all of Israel will be saved in a day.............................................

Where are we told it (corporate Salvation) will occur on One Regular 24 hour day?

[shorttribber]

ST believes that the grafting in has already begun but he provides only his opinion that it has without any evidence.

The evidence is in the land of Israel currently. I could be wrong about it....but we will see.

[Looking4acity]

"THEY WERE BROKEN OFF FOR THEIR UNBELIEF." And God can graft them in again if they don't continue in it. It doesn't get much clearer than that.

Correct Looking. What you have not show though is WHEN that Grafting back in Would Begin. It began already IMO.
Can you prove that it hasn't? Can you prove that it occurs All at Once....or by a process of time, and therefore, little by little?

That grafting in occurs anytime someone accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior. Not before. You either believe or you don't. The State, the false Israel, is in a state of unbelief, and has been since their beginning, and so they are not grafted in and not entitled to the land.

So, we see there is a remnant in Jerusalem after the 2 witnesses raise from the dead:

Rev. 11:12-13

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev. 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

The Day of the Lord.

[Looking4acity]

Hello all,

Happy New Year !

For the most part I agree with you looking4acity. However these forums are pretty stacked in favour of modern Israel.....the propaganda by zionists has been running for decades now.......its hard tackling this issue. But I agree fully that Modern Israel is not Gods people. Its absurd that people will stick to this idea that a certain ethnic group are favoured because of their genetics. Its like a form of Christian approved racism.....I find it really weird how this stuff is so readily believed by Christians. Its tied in with patriotism.....its sadly a misguided loyalty to a modern nation that is really quite corrupt. The key probkem is most Christians don't seem to detect they are being tricked into supporting a modern political movement. The whole thing is politically motivated and has nothing to do with God.
.

Thanks for the support. It is very encouraging. But, I must say that God places importance and takes seriously Abraham's Children. They are not spiritualized descendants, they are real people. We have been quoting scripture all thru this topic about it.

Nevertheless, perhaps you have heard there is reason to believe that the vast majority of Jews today (the Ashkenanazi) are not actual Semites, but are Khazars (Edomites or Idumeans).

[brett]

Its all about faith in God - as you've been discussing in this thread. The only special thing about Abraham was his faith (belief) in God. It had NOTHING to do with his genetics or his ethnicity.

Genetics and ethnicity has ZERO importance to God, that's why there will be believers from EVERY Tribe, tongue and nation. We are all descendants from Adam and Eve. The human race is all the same race in reality.

The only separating factor that God really cares about is whether a human being believes in faith upon Christ or not. Modern Jews today do not believe upon Jesus Christ - they do not have the Son - that means they do not have the Father. The modern state of Israel does NOT resemble in the slightest the Israel of Old. The modern state of Israel is a little Babylon USA just like the big Babylon USA. It embraces sodomy and many other corrupt practises of the West. All western nations are pretty much heading towards becoming Sodom and Gomorrah, modern Israel is part of that group of defiled wealthy nations. All these nations will have God's Wrath poured out on them.

However the geographic locations of Jerusalem, etc, do have significance, but the people currently living there are not connected to the importance of the geographical locations. I.e - just because they live there doesn't make them special, they are just people living in those historically significant locations, which God will reclaim fully when His son returns. This also means God will also EVICT them prior to establishing the REAL ISRAEL. The modern state of Israel (its borders) and all its politicians and military are MAN MADE, they are not working for Jesus Christ, they are not under God's special protection and are not part of God's flock, they are just random people living in those locations. They dress up funny and grow long beard and chant against a wall, but in Gods eyes that's no different to the Chinese worshipping Buddha - they are not God's people because they do not recognise or acknowledge His son.


.

[shorttribber]

That grafting in occurs anytime someone accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior. Not before. You either believe or you don't. The State, the false Israel, is in a state of unbelief, and has been since their beginning, and so they are not grafted in and not entitled to the land.

You have no idea how many faithful believers there are or have been in Israel since 1947.

And since you either do know or do not know, you can't state your case Absolutely any more than I can. Because you do not know....Only God does.

He could allow ten faithful to have a nation He promised them.

And brett doesn't have any way of knowing Absolutely either.....it's God's Work......He Knows, and we don't, it's that simple.

and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

This is almost the exact word that Paul uses in Thes...."they that are alive and REMAIN unto the coming of the Lord"....it is not the least proof that these are the Remnant Jews Only.

they also which pierced him

Are "They" ALL Faithful or Unfaithful? The text does not say.

The Day of the Lord.

That "Day" is not a 24 hour day either....it is a unique day known only to God. And we are given more proof in scripture that it is Not a 24 hour day than to believe it is a 24 hour day.

[brett]

ST here's the error.

1947 marks the creation of the modern STATE (NATION) of Israel. That relates to the INSTALLING of a group of politicians and military to rule over that area of land, by the United Nations.

None of this is God's work. For starters the United Nations is not led by Jesus Christ, secondly when Jesus returns (armageddon) He is not going to be needing modern military assets, like tanks, helicopters, aircraft carriers, drones, etc........ to setup His kingdom.

Modern Israel is all about GLORIFYING modern military hardware, using convention weapons for war and conquest, and when Christ returns none of this will mean ANYTHING, for the Lord will simply speak the words and ALL His enemies will perish in an instant. What you see today in the middle east is a military extension of the USA (Britain), that's what modern Israel really is, its part of an alliance of nations, for strategic purposes, that's why America has been supporting it for so long........not God, but America, Babylon USA. Modern Israel was setup by Britain and America, via the United Nations. All the twisting of prophetic scripture has been for propaganda purposes, to get western Christians (the masses living in Britain and America) to politically support its creation. I think modern Israel represents a serious Last Days deception that all believers need to be careful about ...... they are exploiting the Old Testament prophecies for modern political propaganda purposes - simply to muster all the support they can for their Zionist political agenda, which has nothing to do with Jesus. The modern nation of Israel is not spreading the Gospel, its not supporting the Kingdom of God and it's objectives, rather they are doing something really quite bad, the zionists are exploiting western Christians to setup and establish their own nation.

And also note that there are many Jews who do not support the modern zionist political movement - who are behind the creation of modern Israel. Their reasons are because they do not believe MAN will restore them to their land (via man made military) - but only God alone will restore Israel - supernaturally.

One look at modern Israel today and the first thing that comes to mind is the "INDUSTRIAL MILITARY COMPLEX" - that's the God they worship.

.

[shorttribber]

1947 marks the creation of the modern STATE (NATION) of Israel. That relates to the INSTALLING of a group of politicians and military to rule over that area of land, by the United Nations.

That doesn't matter...and it IS God's work...ZERO Kingdoms or Nations are Built up without it being God's doing...Period.
You could go back and read a few of Keiths posts for those very great references to prove what I've just said.

It's late....gotta go for now.....
Blessings to you all

[brett]

That doesn't matter...and it IS God's work...ZERO Kingdoms or Nations are Built up without it being God's doing...Period.
You could go back and read a few of Keiths posts for those very great references to prove what I've just said.

God does NOT determine leadership in all nations, this I know for a fact. If that were the case then the book of Kings and Chronicles would have said God was pleased with EVERY King over Israel, because God would have inserted all righteous Kings over Israel. The reality is that wicked men rise to power and its AGAINST God's will when this happens, and it happens MORE frequently than a RIGHTEOUS man rising to power. Just read those books of the bible again and you will see how many BAD Kings ruled and did damage to Israel, against God's will.

At some point all you guys are going to have to face the unpleasant reality that modern day Israel is not God's Israel. You are being tricked and deceived.

Revelations 3:9

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Romans 2:28,29

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


We are Jews because of the circumcision of the heart by the Holy spirit. Those in Israel today who REJECT JESUS and dress up outwardly like a "Jew" and pray at the waling wall etc are NOT Jews according to the Bible. They say they are Jews but they LIE. The propaganda you have been told by Zionists are LIES and I find it really sad that so many Christians today are believing these lies. I understand why - its because America has raised many generations telling them these lies. Its become like patriotism - its almost part of being an American - to support Israel. Well that's a bunch of rubbish, your allegiance and loyalty is to God, not Babylon USA, nor Zionist Israel.

Judaism denies Jesus Christ just as much as Islam. Both religions LIE profoundly about Jesus Christ, yet for some reason only Islam is bad according to many American Christians....... there's something very wrong with that picture. I pray some of you will wake up and realise that this is the result of the history of propaganda coming out of your country (USA). It's the USA government (over many decades) that's caused you to support Judaism (zionism) and hate Islam so much. In reality they both REJECT Jesus Christ as much as each other.

.

[Abiding in His Word]

Those in Israel today who REJECT JESUS and dress up outwardly like a "Jew" and pray at the waling wall etc are NOT Jews according to the Bible. They say they are Jews but they LIE. The propaganda you have been told by Zionists are LIES and I find it really sad that so many Christians today are believing these lies. I understand why - its because America has raised many generations telling them these lies. Its become like patriotism - its almost part of being an American - to support Israel. Well that's a bunch of rubbish, your allegiance and loyalty is to God, not Babylon USA, nor Zionist Israel.

Brett, it's quite an assumption that those Jews who are praying at the wailing wall are NOT Jews according to the Bible. How in the world can you possibly know that for a fact?

Is it possible in your opinion that Americans support Israel because God supported/s Israel? It is the land promised and the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews are those who God protected, nurtured, and taught them that He is the great I AM.

In my comment above I noted the Remnant principle in the narrative of Noah, Abraham, Lot, Joshua and Caleb and even Elijah. God is not so much concerned with numbers of persons, but those who would be a witness to the surrounding pagan nations. So there is a remnant currently dwelling in the land of Israel who may be called Messianic Jews or believers like you and me.

Now in that day the remnant of Israel, and those of the house of Jacob who have escaped, will never again rely on the one who struck them, but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return...Isa 10:20-22

There are 262 Messianic organizations operating in Israel according to Kehila News Directory - "a searchable list of congregations, ministries, and businesses related to the Messianic Community in Israel." (as of March 2016). Source: http://app.kehilanews.com/directory)

"Today the latest reports estimate almost 20,000 and 150 congregations in “the Land” (as Eretz Yisrael is called), while globally the reports range as high as 300,000 Messianic Jewish believers."(Charisma Magazine October 29, 2013)

more estimates and sources

There has been a partial hardening happening in Israel, but the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. (Romans 11)

There are those in Israel who reflect God's Remnant principle and who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are His witnesses.

[shorttribber]

God does NOT determine leadership in all nations, this I know for a fact. If that were the case then the book of Kings and Chronicles would have said God was pleased with EVERY King over Israel, because God would have inserted all righteous Kings over Israel.

God's Determinations go far beyond your understanding of His Determinations.

What God Determines is high above All of Our Current Understanding brett.

It is very clear to me, that you do not Absolutely "Know" what you Believe that you "know for a"Fact".

I love you as a brother brett, and I want you to understand that I've not said these things to cause you any harm.....but to only Proclaim with all that is in me, in love, that God's Ways, Thoughts and Actions/Determinations are Far above our understanding.

[Looking4acity]

Brett, it's quite an assumption that those Jews who are praying at the wailing wall are NOT Jews according to the Bible. How in the world can you possibily know that for a fact?

It isnt an assumption. I have provided proof. God says they are not. To be a jew, you must be circumcised of the heart. You must not be in a state of unbelief. You must have faith. Do you deny it?

I know this is hard to grasp. It is very disturbing that this kind of deception has been thrust upon us. It took me a long time to come to grips with it. But this is the deception. They are supposed to be our friends, our allies. But they hate us. They control banking, central banks therefore countries and their politicians, their armies, the television, newspapers, the music industry, Hollywood, social media and religions. As the Pharasees of old, they think they are better than everyone else. They are the elite, the deep state, the hidden hand. They think that God has given them the right to rule by twisting the Scriptures. They follow the evil Talmud and Caballah. They are the Syanagogue of Satan. They do not know the God of their Fathers. They formed the State and did terrible things to make other Jews want to go "home". They want their messiah and prepared a place for him. They are terrorists and murders. They cause wars. They have killed the saints and prophets and when God judges them, they will not repent of it.

And they have no right to the land.

[Jericho]

"They" are the ones forming the NWO. They are the Synagogue of Satan.

IMO your mixing conspiracy theories with Christianity, and it's like mixing oil and water.

You still ignore Heb. 3:19. Please read Hebrew 3:6-19 and 4:1-2.

Is it fair to apply New Covenant versus to Old Covenant events?

And Numbers 13:27-14:34. Hopefully this will help.

Your assertion is they had the wander the desert because of their unbelief, but my contention is it's because they were rebelling against God's anointed (Moses). In Num 14:4 they plotted to pick a new leader and return to Egypt. Look at what happened to Korah and Miriam when they rebelled against Moses. Even David would not kill Saul when he had the chance because he was still God's anointed. Point being, you don't mess with God's anointed.

For the most part I agree with you looking4acity. However these forums are pretty stacked in favour of modern Israel

Yes Brett, we have had these discussions before, so there is really no point in debating it again. Nothing I say will change your mind, and vice versa. I will say this, these two views of Israel are similar to the political Right and Left's views of America. The Right view's America as imperfect, but a force for good. The Left views America as evil and a force for oppression. Perspectives are an amazing thing. We can look at the same thing and have two very different opinions. In much the same way, we see two very different Israels. Most of us here view Israel as imperfect but prophetically important that culminates in Christ's return. The other view is Israel as something negative, nefarious, or even evil. Two very different perspectives, but how can we know which is right? Well, you will know them by their fruits. Someone who views Israel as prophetically important would be inclined to help the Jewish people, be kind toward them, or lead them to Christ. Merely showing Christian hospitality has won a many to Christ. On the other hand, someone who has negative of views of Israel may be inclined to look upon the Jews with contempt, which could lead to antisemitism, persecution, and reinforce old stereotypes that Christians hate Jews. So, one's stance toward the state of Israel is a major factor on how one views the Jews. Zionism, after all, is a distinctly "Jewish" movement.

[shorttribber]

It is surprising to me that you, Looking and brett, are unable to see that there Are TWO Kinds of Jews Living in the same place.

One Kind, are just "so called", Jews, and are manipulated by the Loser (satan), and the other Kind are Real Jews, Remnant Believers!

They BOTH SHARE the SAME Real estate! One KIND sharing By Promise, and the Other KIND sharing it are those who are trying to "Take it by Force", by Violence!

[Abiding in His Word]

It isnt an assumption. I have provided proof. God says they are not. To be a jew, you must be circumcised of the heart. You must not be in a state of unbelief. You must have faith. Do you deny it?

Please provide proof that all the Jews praying at the wailing wall do not include some who are circumcised of their heart. Again I ask, how can you possibly know that for a fact?

They are supposed to be our friends, our allies. But they hate us. They control banking, central banks therefore countries and their politicians, their armies, the television, newspapers, the music industry, Hollywood, social media and religions. As the Pharasees of old, they think they are better than everyone else. They are the elite, the deep state, the hidden hand. They think that God has given them the right to rule by twisting the Scriptures. They follow the evil Talmud and Caballah. They are the Syanagogue of Satan. They do not know the God of their Fathers. They formed the State and did terrible things to make other Jews want to go "home". They want their messiah and prepared a place for him. They are terrorists and murders. They cause wars. They have killed the saints and prophets and when God judges them, they will not repent of it.

These are generalizations and assumptions. Please refer to my post above that provide evidence that there are Christ followers in Israel. Since there is credible, reliable evidence (provided above) in contrast to your lumping and labeling all Jews with this stereotypical, negative, false statement. These are the same type of generalizations and inflammatory statements President Trump made about Mexicans, immigrants, women, and "good" white supremacists.

And they have no right to the land.

Scripture has already been provided to prove the opposite.

Please provide credible links as evidence for your statements, Looking4acity, otherwise they are assumptions, generalizations and personal opinions rather than facts and are in opposition to scripture.

[Looking4acity]

I am posting scripture again. I beg everyone to read and take time to study them carefully. Pray about it. Meanwhile, i will gather some things together. The original question was:

WILL GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE BACK TO THE LAND IN UNBELIEF?

edited to add:
I hope to show that God is not gathering His people via the the state of Israel we see today, and that Israel is the beast empire and also Mystery Babylon.

Romans 2:28,29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:'m
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well AS UNTO THEM: BUT THE WORD DID NOT PROFIT THEM, NOT BEING MIXED WITH FAITH IN THEM THAT HEARD IT."


Romans 9:6-8. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

Romans 11
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Please read Hebrew 3:6-19 and 4:1-2. And Numbers 13:27-14:34.




Galatians 3:7
KNOW YE THEREFORE THAT THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH, THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM.

Deut. 6:17-18
17 Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.
18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD: that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers


Deut. Chapter 30
1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.


Ezekiel 13:8-9
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.


Jeremiah 29:13-14
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive

Heb. 3:19 SO WE SEE THAT THEY COULD NOT ENTER IN BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF.

[shorttribber]

Did you read my last post Looking? Every single scripture passage you just listed is answered in my above post.

[Abiding in His Word]

They are supposed to be our friends, our allies. But they hate us. They control banking, central banks therefore countries and their politicians, their armies, the television, newspapers, the music industry, Hollywood, social media and religions. As the Pharasees of old, they think they are better than everyone else. They are the elite, the deep state, the hidden hand. They think that God has given them the right to rule by twisting the Scriptures. They follow the evil Talmud and Caballah. They are the Syanagogue of Satan. They do not know the God of their Fathers. They formed the State and did terrible things to make other Jews want to go "home". They want their messiah and prepared a place for him. They are terrorists and murders. They cause wars. They have killed the saints and prophets and when God judges them, they will not repent of it.

I'm waiting for concrete proof/evidence for these inflammatory, derogatory generalizations.

[mrgravyard49]

Maybe we should let God worry about who the true Jews are,, he knows. And keep trying to bring people to Jesus before this debate turns ugly. Brothers and Sisters. .

[shorttribber]

Just for the sake of those (currently, Lookingforacity and brett) who apparently Disregard the Promises of God to "The Faithful of the Seed" in the land of Israel TODAY.

I feel compelled to post, at this time, a private message that I sent to David (Exit40) about a year ago.

It is a bit lengthy..........but here it is.
.................................................................................................................................


Hey David,
Just want to share something with you alone. For the past year I've been watching the number of views on a few old threads that focus on the Split Confirmation of The Covenant (Daniel 9).

The two threads are......
1. A New Look at Daniel 9:27.....Really!
and...
2. Anointed Messenger of The Covenant.

Now, the reason for my message to you is this....


As I said, you're the only one that I'm sharing this with, and I would like your feedback on what I'm going to share.

About a year and a half ago, I bumped one thread (Daniel 9:27 Really!) when it had exactly 11,988. I bumped it then because at that time I thought it was receiving quite a few views but there were no comments. Moving it to the front page I thought would encourage some who were viewing it to comment and so on.
I posted Psalm 119: 89 to coincide with my VIEW NUMBER 11,989.

Now that may sound silly, but I was serious, and felt lead of God to do it.
Now then, as I said also, I wanted others who were viewing that thread to comment...but Not One comment followed....as it is today, now on page two in the debate section.

Now here's where it gets interesting I think. The views have continued, more and more and more, even though it's on page two. What I began to think about six months ago was that the reason for such an accelerated viewing with no comments may be due to the possibility of the viewers being foreign...and are using a translating feature on the computer to read it, but it would make posting very difficult.

Hope this isn't getting too long, please hang in there.

The sticky threads you have at the beginning of the debate section have a massive viewing...thank God, and I believe it has to do with the Islamic AC position....I think that's part of the reason for the mass viewership on my two threads also.

It took me all that time to help you realize what I think may be happening......

Hold on to your hat!

When I saw the views happening at such an accelerated pace, and thinking they may be foreign, I began to wonder.....is it possible that they are Messianic Jews? Possibly the 144,000? Could they be possibly Learning and Receiving information God wants them to have?
At first I thought that it was nothing but prideful for me to think that God could be using our threads to do such a thing. Then I was reminded by God that He chooses any thing or anybody to do His Will, and if that's what He may be doing then that's His doing.

Brother, let me tell you what happened next.

from here i'll just call the "Daniel 9:27 Really" thread, thread #1, and refer to the "Anointed Messenger" thread, #2.

OK now, on Nov 8th, election eve, #1 went to 100,000 views Exactly, and #2 was about at 45,000.

At that point I thought to ask God if He would show me if indeed that the 144,000 were the Viewers I had wondered about, was it really them?
The Fleece I laid out was this (and I told my family and one friend also about this beside you now) If the #1 thread reaches 144,000 views by Inauguration Day, then it was so.

If that thread did not reach 144,000 BY Inauguration Day, then my wonderings were Not So.

Now, I thought that if the thread had 44,000 views in the space of only 73 days, being on page two would not be so easy to have come to pass!
Here's what's happened brother! Thread #1 reached 144,000. And Guess when? I stayed up to watch the Exact Time.............It Occurred on the Day the Electoral College Voted..........
@...........12:44 Exactly!
Let me give you a few more numbers now.........Electoral College Vote was Exactly 40 Days After Nov 8th........AND 33 Days BEFORE Jan 20th, Inauguration Day.

So then, to remind you, that thread received 44,000 views in the Exact Space of 40 Days,@12:44 AM.

Now, since then the Snowball effect is just nuts! The views for that thread, as I'm typing this is @ 183,300!
So, doing the math, that's almost 40,000 more in just 12 Days!

Here's another amazing thing, I will now mention thread #2.
After #1 reached 144,000 on Electoral College Vote Day, I noted that #2 was at about 60 or 70 thousand I think...not sure exactly on that one.

I remember telling my family and that one friend that it would be just crazy if thread #2 could actually also reach 144,000 by Inauguration Day also....but I didn't mention anything to God regarding it...just told that to them.

Now guess what? Probably you guessed it....Thread #2 reached 144,000 views, Already, and guess when? it, went to 144,000 on the very day that John Kerry Officially Condemned Israel after the UN Voted!

And that thread is now @ almost 148,800.

Brother, I feel that God did answer, and the 144,000 are READING Your Turkey threads, my Confirmation of the Covenant threads, and are getting Ready for what will Soon Come @ the Dome of the Rock.

Man Brother, I just can't imagine what I've just told you to be any kind of coincidence.
How can it be?

At present I would that you keep these things to yourself ok?

It may be that I will cut and paste this message to you on the open forum if what could happen at the Dome and the Wailing Wall happens Right before or After the Inauguration of Trump....and the rest of our group here needs to know then.

Unless you think I should do otherwise and tell the group at this point, what do you think?


.........................................................................................................................................


Now, i will end this post with these words....in Defence of the Israel of God............

.................................................................................................................................

...................................................Psalm 119..................................................................
.....................................................LAMED....................................................................
....89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven ....

[brett]

.
ST I will give a fair response soon, just got some other things I need to do at present. Let's keep this discussion on the "safe" road .

I will do my best to remain as level headed as possible and be sensitive to others views.

God Bless

.

[brett]

It is surprising to me that you, Looking and brett, are unable to see that there Are TWO Kinds of Jews Living in the same place.

One Kind, are just "so called", Jews, and are manipulated by the Loser (satan), and the other Kind are Real Jews, Remnant Believers!

They BOTH SHARE the SAME Real estate! One KIND sharing By Promise, and the Other KIND sharing it are those who are trying to "Take it by Force", by Violence!

The way I see it ST is that globally (in God's eyes) people are PRIMARILY divided by FAITH, not by national borders. There are the SAVED and UNSAVED (BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS). Imho these are the only 2 groups of people that really matter to God. One group is going to heaven, the other group is not and the boundaries of nations are of no consequence in this regard. It doesn't matter if a believer lives in America, England, Poland, Brazil, or Australia, they are a believer and that's all that matters. The promises to Abraham are not bound by nationality or geographical location, they are dependant on FAITH, we are heirs of the promises of Abraham because we are believers. Believers do not have their own nation yet, that nation will be setup by Jesus in the millennium. Imho modern Israel is not a nation currently regarded by God. Jesus will setup the new Israel in the millennium Himself and that will be regarded by the Father as true Israel. Imho currently no nation of Israel exists on the earth and is not going to exist until Jesus sets it up in the millennium and rules over it Himself. So believers are presently citizens of the Commonwealth of Israel - spread amongst the nations - we don't have our own nation yet. Our citizenship is in the promised future Commonwealth of Israel - a future nation - to be setup by Christ - part of God's Kingdom and not of this earth. That also means that I view the current modern nation of Israel as an impostor, a counterfeit setup by satan to precede and imitate what Jesus will setup. The same way the AC will precede and imitate Jesus Christ. Imho the purpose of modern Israel is to deceive the people of the earth, imho its part of the Last Days deception and the AC's dominion. It's funny how every believer acknowledges that we are in the Last Days and accepts that deception will abound, that these are wicked days, yet somehow they think a "secular Israel" can exist in these Last Days and be "Gods people", when they are a secular unbelieving nation - no different from any other nation, in fact populated by far more unbelievers than most nations. There are more believers (both percentage wise and in quantity) living in Indonesia than there are living in Israel. If Indonesia went to war against Israel do you think God would prefer Indonesia be bombed or Israel? I mean bombing Indonesia would cause more followers of Christ to be persecuted than if Israel was bombed. This highlights another absurdity in the Zionist position, that current secular unbelieving citizens of modern Israel are protected more by God than Christians in other nations. The whole modern Zionist doctrine is centred on preserving and creating a "NATION" a "STATE". No matter what - that NATION is more important than anything else. Kill as many people as needed to preserve the modern NATION of Israel. This is clearly not what God is on about in these Last Days, considering when believers will be raptured from all over the globe. God has no interest in the preserving of a nation at this time, but rather gathering His people from the 4 corners of the earth at the time of the Great harvest.

I do not call believers in Israel "Jews", I call them Christian believers. I consider the practising Jews to be unsaved, the same as muslims are unsaved, or HINDU's are unsaved, or buddhists are unsaved.

I hope that clarifies my position better.

.

[shorttribber]

The way I see it ST is that globally (in God's eyes) people are divided by FAITH, not by nationality. There are the SAVED and UNSAVED (BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS). Imho these are the only 2 groups of people that matter to God.

people matter to God...period. God Knows who are the Unbelieving Jews that WILL Turn to Him. They, the currently "Unbelieving Jews" that DO HAVE a Heart AFTER, and are Unknowingly NOT Currently Accepting Christ ARE ALSO PART of "Faithful Israel", The "Israel of God", they just have not as yet come to believe.

At what age do you officially call them ( who have not yet UNDERSTOOD the Gospel) OF the Synagogue of satan? Those who are over eight years of age, but God knows them as someone who Loves Him dearly, yet not yet in the fold of Christ? How about those only that are over twelve years of age,but God knows them as someone who Loves Him dearly, yet not yet in the fold of Christ ? How about the twenty-five year old that has not yet UNDERSTOOD the Gospel, God knows them as someone who Loves Him dearly, yet not yet in the fold of Christ ?

There are more than TWO classes brett, to God, there are MORE Than TWO Only, when it comes to identifying "The Israel of God".

He ALONE Knows Who they are, and it might greatly offend God to call them something other than what He Calls Them.....Faithfull, and "The Israel of God".

For God calls things that Are Not Yet, as though they already ARE
.

Romans 4
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


Did you catch that? Promise sure to THAT (SEED) of the Law. AND that ALSO which is of Faith.

If SOME Still Abide yet Under the Law, Not yet having received Christ, THEY are STILL the SEED of "The Promise".

Does it get any Clearer? I don't think so.

[brett]

The way I see it ST is that globally (in God's eyes) people are divided by FAITH, not by nationality. There are the SAVED and UNSAVED (BELIEVERS and UNBELIEVERS). Imho these are the only 2 groups of people that matter to God.

people matter to God...period. God Knows who are the Unbelieving Jews that WILL Turn to Him. They, the currently "Unbelieving Jews" that DO HAVE a Heart AFTER, and are Unknowingly NOT Currently Accepting Christ ARE ALSO PART of "Faithful Israel", The "Israel of God", they just have not as yet come to believe.

At what age do you officially call them ( who have not yet UNDERSTOOD the Gospel) OF the Synagogue of satan? Those who are over eight years of age, but God knows them as someone who Loves Him dearly, yet not yet in the fold of Christ? How about those only that are over twelve years of age,but God knows them as someone who Loves Him dearly, yet not yet in the fold of Christ ? How about the twenty-five year old that has not yet UNDERSTOOD the Gospel, God knows them as someone who Loves Him dearly, yet not yet in the fold of Christ ?

There are more than TWO classes brett, to God, there are MORE Than TWO Only, when it comes to identifying "The Israel of God".

He ALONE Knows Who they are, and it might greatly offend God to call them something other than what He Calls Them.....Faithfull, and "The Israel of God".

For God calls things that Are Not Yet, as though they already ARE
.

Romans 4
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


Did you catch that? Promise sure to THAT (SEED) of the Law. AND that ALSO which is of Faith.

If SOME Still Abide yet Under the Law, Not yet having received Christ, THEY are STILL the SEED of "The Promise".

Does it get any Clearer? I don't think so.

.
Please ST for a moment consider the absurdity of the biased FOCUS on Israel regarding salvation. God desires the Chinese to be saved, the French, the Africans, the Germans, the Iranians, the Japanese, etc all to be saved. Yet all this Zionist PROPAGANDA causes Christians to elevate citizens of one county as most important, Jews in Israel. That is the purpose of Zionism exposed right there, to lift the Jews up above everyone else. It's not normal or right - I pray you see the reality of the propaganda here ST ........ it makes American Christians CRAZILY support one nation over all the others. That's the purpose of Zionism and the deception. Its not God favouring them, its Christians showing favouritism to them because of the propaganda - deception.

.

[shorttribber]

Please ST for a moment consider the absurdity of the biased FOCUS on Israel regarding salvation. God desires the Chinese to be saved, the French, the Africans, the Germans, the Iranians, the Japanese, etc all to be saved. Yet all this Zionist PROPAGANDA causes Christians to elevate citizens of one county, Israel. That is the purpose of Zionism exposed right there, to lift the Jews up above everyone else. Its not normal or right - I pray you see the fruit of the propaganda here ST........

And I pray that you slow down and read what I posted with a more open mind.

I do not follow propaganda....I only follow what the Word of God Plainly says.

[brett]

Please ST for a moment consider the absurdity of the biased FOCUS on Israel regarding salvation. God desires the Chinese to be saved, the French, the Africans, the Germans, the Iranians, the Japanese, etc all to be saved. Yet all this Zionist PROPAGANDA causes Christians to elevate citizens of one county, Israel. That is the purpose of Zionism exposed right there, to lift the Jews up above everyone else. Its not normal or right - I pray you see the fruit of the propaganda here ST........

And I pray that you slow down and read what I posted with a more open mind.

I do not follow propaganda....I only follow what the Word of God Plainly says.

ST in a war between Israel and another nation - you're going to support Israel no matter what right? That is the purpose of the Zionist propaganda. Its all about self preservation, its not about following the true God. Zionism is self centred and self focused, it says we are God's special people, we deserve special protection to exist because we're God's special people no matter what - that is propaganda - and its designed for self preservation - not to lead people to Christ or serve the Kingdom of God. It actually exposes their unbelief. They don't rely on God, they rely on propaganda.

Anyway I need to go now, will be back later....

God Bless

.

[shorttribber]

ST in a war between Israel and another nation - you're going to support Israel no matter what right? That is the purpose of the Zionist propaganda.

Did you take time to read this part of another post I made brett?

One Kind, are just "so called", Jews, and are manipulated by the Loser (satan), and the other Kind are Real Jews, Remnant Believers!They BOTH SHARE the SAME Real estate! One KIND sharing By Promise, and the Other KIND sharing it are those who are trying to "Take it by Force", by Violence!

I'm actually of the mindset of the ancient church, and oppose war altogether........but that's another subject.

So no....I would not Support a Zionist War.....or Any propaganda involved in it.

Zionism is self centred and self focused, it says we are God's special people, we deserve special protection to exist because we're God's special people no matter what - that is propaganda - and its designed for self preservation - not to lead people to Christ or serve the Kingdom of God.

I agree...that's the mindset of those who would "Take it (The Kingdom) by Force"

I'm with those who would Take it, not by might , nor by Power, but by the Spirit of the Lord!

They don't rely on God, they rely on propaganda.

"They" are not the Ones I support with prayer....I support the "Israel of God" and THEY share that same land.

Anyway I need to go now, will be back later....

OK brother....hope you get the chance to read this last post though

[brett]

.
I think I am understanding your position a little better, sorry its taking me a while. I don't believe that there are a percentage of Jews living in Israel today that are still some kind of "jewish remnant" that God still preserves as followers of Judaism. The Holy Spirit only leads people towards Christ, not towards preserving Judaism. The fact Judaism rejects Jesus is a massive problem. This is why I stated previously that there are only 2 groups of people imho, believers in Christ and unbelievers of Christ. Judaism teaches lies about Jesus Christ - I cannot accept that the Holy Spirit would preserve a group of people to enable them to keep teaching rejection of Jesus Christ. So imho there is no "Jewish remnant" (followers of Judaism) that God accepts as believers. Rather its actual Christian believers living in Israel now that are the remnant. Followers of Judaism are not a preserved or protected "remnant" imho, I would rather consider them a cursed group because they reject Christ.

The way I see it is all nations have a believing remnant (minority) in them and the modern nation of Israel is no different. This believing remnant are Christians, followers of Jesus Christ. There is no other "remnant" but a Christian remnant. The sheep are the remnant and they follow only the voice of the true shepherd, which is Jesus Christ.

Young unsaved Jews raised in homes where the parents are followers of Judaism - they are the same as any child raised in a home with unbelieving parents. God desires all children to come to the knowledge of His son, from all nations. It's not like God has more desire for children of Jewish parents to get saved, over children of say Chinese parents. There is no difference in the amount of love God has for one race over the other - in His love for the children of one race over another race. God has just as much desire that a japanese child gets saved as a jewish child.

.

[Abiding in His Word]

.
I think I am understanding your position a little better, sorry its taking me a while.

I don't believe that there are a percentage of Jews living in Israel today that are still some kind of "jewish remnant" that God still preserves as followers of Judaism.

Of importance in our understanding is the difference between ethnicity and biology in the expression of traditions and customs prevalent in any given area.

For example, we might recognize Italian's love of pasta and wine for meals and celebrations. Irish traditions and cultural practices include corned-beef and cabbage, folklore like 4-leaf clovers. Scotland is famous for kilts and bagpipe music. When we see women dressed in hijabs, we know that's a dress-code in Iran. Some ethnic traditions and customs, however, that are passed down from generation to generation become less obvious due to the immigration of various nationalities and this causes a kind of mosaic-like diversity within a country. For example, under that hijab there may be an American journalist rather than an Iranian woman. Marriage of an Irish man to an Italian woman may cause him to take a liking to pasta and forgo his traditional corned-beef and cabbage.

The same is true of Israel which should caution us against applying very specific, stereotypical generalizations to all who live there. I have no doubt that there are some Jesus-followers in Israel who may continue practicing some of their cultural traditions which have been handed down for generations. Paul, for example, continued to worship in a synagogue and evidently continued the practice of a Nazarite vow.

Considering the differences between biology/race and ethnic, cultural traditions, we can't make statements like "they hate us" and apply it to the entire population of a given area/country/nation; in this case Israel.

[Exit40]

Young unsaved Jews raised in homes where the parents are followers of Judaism - they are the same as any child raised in a home with unbelieving parents.

Not so Brett. Judaism believes and worships the same God Christians do. The One true Living God. They are a remnant in God's eyes, whether you can see that or not. None of us here or anywhere else gets to condemn anyone else, which is what you are doing. None of us gets to claim who is God's Chosen, or who is not. Our Father decides that, and we must accept He knows what is best for them, having to live under the conditions they live in. As for the Jews living in Israel, or anywhere else, they may be blinded in part so we Christians who believe in Jesus as the Christ can provoke them to jealousy when times get truly tough, because of our Faith in the God they believe in too, but don't understand yet who the Christ is. There is a strong hint of racism in your posts Brett, what you say can be said of Blacks or Hispanic peoples too. Those who believe in the world are of No consequences to us, they are in the Hands of the Lord, a fearful place to be. Please reconsider your thoughts Brett. Not all Jews are Zionists as you describe them. They are just people like you and I. And remember they are blinded in part for our sake, so that WE, you and I, and all believers here and covering our planet, can come to Christ. Anyone who has done that for me, in God's eyes too, gets a great deal of loving respect from me. We don't have the right or ability to properly judge who they are that have done that, for our sake

God Bless You

David

[shorttribber]

I think I am understanding your position a little better, sorry its taking me a while.

I smile with Abiding but.....

I don't believe that there are a percentage of Jews living in Israel today that are still some kind of "jewish remnant" that God still preserves as followers of Judaism.

Here's where I am not being clear enough apparently. God does not preserve them "as a follower of Judaism", no, God preserves who he Foreknows AS "The Israel of God"....JEW OR Gentile. There are Jews Born with the BLESSING of having the Oracles of God Committed to them. To him Much is given, Much IS Required! That Nation/People Have been Charged By God with a Massive Responsibility.....The Word of the Living God! There ARE Jews, that God FOREKNOWS that Love Him and ARE Currently Practicing Judaism (One they Ignorantly Follow), That ARE a PART of That Preserved Remnant.

He Does NOT Preserve them BECAUSE they are practicing Judaism. He Preserves them BECAUSE He Knows They Have a Faithful HEART to Serve and Love Him, He Knows who They Are.
He Knows WHO of Them WILL come to believe and be Reconciled to Him through Christ.

THESE (Part of the Faithful Remnant) are the Ones to Whom the Promises were Made that ARE YET Still Under the Law!

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

[shorttribber]

(responding to brett ) Not all Jews are Zionists as you describe them. They are just people like you and I. And remember they are blinded in part for our sake, so that WE, you and I, and all believers here and covering our planet, can come to Christ. Anyone who has done that for me, in God's eyes too, gets a great deal of loving respect from me. We don't have the right or ability to properly judge who they are that have done that, for our sake

That's a really good way to say it

[brett]

Young unsaved Jews raised in homes where the parents are followers of Judaism - they are the same as any child raised in a home with unbelieving parents.

Not so Brett. Judaism believes and worships the same God Christians do. The One true Living God.

I don't agree with you here. They do not believe in the same God and Jesus Himself said so, Jesus said their father is the devil.

John 8:37-44
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


And another:
1 John 2:23
Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


The simple fact is that anyone who denies Jesus does not have the Father, so whatever they worship is not the same God. Followers of Judaism do not have the Father, for you must have the SON in order to have the FATHER. If anyone does NOT have the son - rejects Jesus - then by DEFAULT they cannot and do not have the Father. The God of Judaism is not the same God of Christianity and followers of Judaism are NOT a remnant. This is something I pray you will acknowledge, I can't see anyway how you could not acknowledge this very clear fact. Anyone who denies the son (Judaism denies the son) does not worship the same God but another.

.

[Abiding in His Word]

Anyone who denies the son (Judaism denies the son) does not have the same God but another.

I'm not sure all Jews deny the Son. They just didn't recognize Him when He came. They believe in a Son/Messiah, but are still waiting for Him as they think He is more of a King or a political leader than the one born in a manger. We know those known as Messianic Jews do recognize Jesus as the long-awaited Savior when confronted with the many prophecies about Him.

[brett]

Anyone who denies the son (Judaism denies the son) does not have the same God but another.

I'm not sure all Jews deny the Son. They just didn't recognize Him when He came. They believe in a Son/Messiah, but are still waiting for Him as they think He is more of a King or a political leader than the one born in a manger. We know those known as Messianic Jews do recognize Jesus as the long-awaited Savior when confronted with the many prophecies about Him.

A MAJOR belief of Judaism is that Jesus Christ was NOT the messiah. This is THE most commonly known fact about Jews, they reject Jesus Christ.

The label "Messianic Jews" is confusing and I gotta wonder why its even necessary. You are either a follower of Jesus Christ or you are not. So they do not need to be given a separate category, if they believe upon Jesus then they are "Christians" not "Messianic Jews".

.

[Abiding in His Word]

A MAJOR belief of Judaism is that Jesus Christ was NOT the messiah. This is THE most commonly known fact about Jews, they reject Jesus Christ.

Given the link I posted above about the number of believing Jews, I think you are still using generalities and suppositions that are not necessarily true.

The label "Messianic Jews" is confusing and I gotta wonder why its even necessary. You are either a follower of Jesus Christ or you are not. So they do not need to be given a separate category, if they believe upon Jesus then they are "Christians" not "Messianic Jews".

That label would certainly be a eye-catching witness to other Jews though. The cultural commonality would be a benefit in communicating and interacting with other Jews imo.

[Jay Ross]

Hello

I have had no problems with the subject matter in this thread. However, there are others who view the subject matter of the thread very differently.

In the parable of the planted fig tree, it still has not brought forth any fruit yet and we are waiting on the beginning of the next season to see if their will be any fruit at that time and if the tree will be allowed to live, and if there is not fruit then the fig tree will be destroyed. There is still 20-30 years yet before the fig tree will be inspected by its owner before that decision by Him will be made.

Luke 13:6-9: - The Parable of the barren Fig Tree

6 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' 8 But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"

What is this parable telling us, that after four ages, if the fig tree has not produced any fruit, then the owner can destroy the fig tree and burn it in the fire.

The fourth time that the owner will come is still in our near future.

We need to read Joel to understand what is occurring at the present time.

The fig tree budding in 1948 was foretold in Genesis 15:16, but the descendants of Abraham will do so in their own strength, unlike the prophecy in Genesis 15:13-14 where God is intimately involved in bringing the Nation of Israel out of Egypt with Great possessions, because the decreed visitation of the iniquity of the fathers upon the fathers' children and the children's children has not yet run it full course. The end of that visitation of the iniquities of the fathers still has some 20-30 years to go yet.

Joel 1 talks about the destruction of Jerusalem and the removal of the temple so that the Sin offerings under "the Law" have no place to be given.

Joel 2 speaks of the need of Israel to come back in repentance to the LORD. Luke 14:31-32 also speaks of this same event of a gathered army near Jerusalem being judged.

Why did God visit their iniquity upon Israel? Because of their idolatrous worship going after the God's of Baal.

The premise of this thread is that Israel has not yet been redeemed because they have not repented of their iniquity of idolatrous worship even though God gave them a window of opportunity of 490 years to repent and return whole heartedly unto the Lord.

The discussion is about whether or not there are some Israelites who have already repented of their iniquity.

A hypothetical discussion where both sides are right in their premises but both are missing the heart of God and His prophetical word concerning Israel and when God will restore them in one day. 1948 was not the time when God restored Israel in one day. It is still some 20-30 years into our future when God will restore all of Israel and enter into renewing the Kingdom of Priest and a Holy Nation and being God's possession among all of the nations Covenant on a day of the Lord.

How important is it to show our respective ignorance on this matter. We are told to watch and wait to see the Lord God do His thing. Sadly we are impatient and want to make every small event leading up to the time of Israel's repenting of their iniquities towards God the sign on which we can hang our hat on that event peg, so to speak using some scripture that just might confirm our understanding.

I know that I do not always get it right and a number of people have shown grace towards me still loved me for who I am and allowed me to correct my understanding when I have realised my mistaken understanding on that particular issue.

Perhaps it is time for us to also show Grace to those who may have a different understanding to what we may understand, what the truth of the matter is.

Shalom.

[brett]

A MAJOR belief of Judaism is that Jesus Christ was NOT the messiah. This is THE most commonly known fact about Jews, they reject Jesus Christ.

Given the link I posted above about the number of believing Jews, I think you are still using generalities and suppositions that are not necessarily true.

The fact Judaism denies Jesus Christ is NOT a generality or supposition - its a fact.

The label "Messianic Jews" is confusing and I gotta wonder why its even necessary. You are either a follower of Jesus Christ or you are not. So they do not need to be given a separate category, if they believe upon Jesus then they are "Christians" not "Messianic Jews".

That label would certainly be a eye-catching witness to other Jews though. The cultural commonality would be a benefit in communicating and interacting with other Jews imo.

If a Jew converts to Christianity then they should not be ashamed of the name of Jesus, nor should they have a problem with being called a "Christian". We don't need to invent new labels to appeal to the unsaved. The Gospel has the power to save just the way it is, just the way Jesus preached it. Otherwise we might end up promoting "another gospel". Similiar to how zionist Jews have been allowed to infiltrate the churches in America and injected their own propaganda (deception) to alter what Christians believe. We must be on guard to prevent a "changing" of the original gospel preached by Jesus and the early Apostles. Even in Paul's day the Jews were trying to lead the believers back to Jewish practises, circumcision etc and Paul rebuked that movement. Today Paul would go ballistic if he saw how the Jews had infiltrated and corrupted the church, for their own political purposes.

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[Abiding in His Word]

The fact Judaism denies Jesus Christ is NOT a generality or supposition - its a fact.

Those who are Jewish believers and their churches are listed here.

If a Jew converts to Christianity then they should not be ashamed of the name of Jesus, nor should they have a problem with being called a "Christian".

Again, if you check out the list of Messianic churches here, you will find many names that attest to the fact that they are not ashamed of the name of Jesus/Yeshua/King/Messiah, etc. Just as our churches have names like Assembly of God, United Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Faithful Word Baptist, etc. Some differentiate between Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Mormonism, etc. for the sake of identification of major faith doctrines.

[Jericho]

This is THE most commonly known fact about Jews, they reject Jesus Christ.

Brett, how is that any different than the majority of gentiles who also reject Jesus as the Messiah? Yet you focus only on the Jews in this regard. Usually, bad things happen when a specific group is so demonized.

[brett]

The fact Judaism denies Jesus Christ is NOT a generality or supposition - its a fact.

Those who are Jewish believers and their churches are listed here.

If a Jew converts to Christianity then they should not be ashamed of the name of Jesus, nor should they have a problem with being called a "Christian".

Again, if you check out the list of Messianic churches here, you will find many names that attest to the fact that they are not ashamed of the name of Jesus/Yeshua/King/Messiah, etc. Just as our churches have names like Assembly of God, United Baptist, Calvary Chapel, Faithful Word Baptist, etc. Some differentiate between Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Mormonism, etc. for the sake of identification of major faith doctrines.

Ok so lets agree that they are actually CHRISTIANS, they are no longer Jews who follow Judaism. So let's not confuse them with Jews who do follow Judaism. When I refer to Jews I am referring to Jews who follow Judaism and are NOT Christians. These people you are talking about are not Jews by my definition of what a Jew is - a person who follows Judaism and rejects Jesus Christ.

Google definition of the word JEW
.Jew
dʒuː/Submit
noun
a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins to the ancient Hebrew people of Israel.

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[brett]

This is THE most commonly known fact about Jews, they reject Jesus Christ.

Brett, how is that any different than the majority of gentiles who also reject Jesus as the Messiah? Yet you focus only on the Jews in this regard. Usually, bad things happen when a specific group is so demonized.

It is no different, you are correct - they are the same as gentiles who reject Jesus Christ too. This discussion happens to be specifically about Jews..... that's why I'm talking about Jews. I'm not demonising them at all, I'm discussing them because this discussion thread is about Jews / Israel.

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[shorttribber]

I don't agree with you here. They do not believe in the same God and Jesus Himself said so, Jesus said their father is the devil.

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees (Who were not following the True and Only God) THEY Had ZERO Faith, other than Faith in the God of Forces (Authority and Power).

BUT......
Romans 3 .......says.....
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

The Ones that Do have Faith and Love for the True and Only God, but ignorantly still have not yet Understood the Gospel, Are the Ones Described by Paul.

They are the Jews Of the Promise (part of the remnant) that as of yet are still Not Christians, But Serve the SAME God.
As I said before, God knows them...and you don't, but you call them evil.

I call them Blessed, and known of God, The "Israel of God". And God HAS given them That Land according to the Abrahamic Promise.

Now who is Right, Romans 3:30, or you brett?

[brett]

I don't agree with you here. They do not believe in the same God and Jesus Himself said so, Jesus said their father is the devil.

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees (Who were not following the True and Only God) THEY Had ZERO Faith, other than Faith in the God of Forces (Authority and Power).

Who is running the modern state of Israel today ST? This discussion thread is primarily about the nation STATE of Israel,
whether its God's Israel or not. You are correct that the Pharisees and those attacking Jesus were mostly the LEADERS of Old Israel. Who runs modern Israel today? The common people or the Leaders and Authorities?

You have actually made the whole point of this discussion much clearer, modern Israel is run by Pharisees much like the Israel of old. The same way the Authorities of Old Israel were corrupt - the same is true today - those who run modern Israel today are corrupt and this supports the notion that modern Israel is not - and cannot be - God's Israel.

The only leader of Israel that will never be corrupt is JESUS CHRIST Himself. Then Israel will be God's Israel.

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[keithareilly]

moved