Why So Confident??

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Why So Confident??

Postby mark s on Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:54 pm

Philippians 1:3-7 (NKJV)

I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace.


What is the basis for Paul's confidence?

Paul is confident of a certain thing. Paul is confident that God will complete the work in the Christians to whom he wrote (whomever they may be).

And what is the reason for his confidence?

They, as does Paul, share in the Grace.

Grace. A gift. Not earned. Not worked for. No performance. A gift. Jesus performed on our behalf.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby shorttribber on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:37 am

mark s wrote:He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;


The work of God was being done in His People then, and Continues Today UNTIL we come unto the Fullness of the Stature of Christ.

The text does not speak of Each Believer, Individually. Because that work was not continually performed in each believer for Nearly 2,000 years after their death Until the Return of or "Day of Christ".

Therefore, this text speaks of the Body of Christ Corporately, not individually.

This is not a proof text for OSAS. Where a person who believes that OSAS, that God would be found Lying if He did not Finish His good work in each believer, resulting in the apostasy of anyone who Once Truly Believed.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby mark s on Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:14 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;


The work of God was being done in His People then, and Continues Today UNTIL we come unto the Fullness of the Stature of Christ.

The text does not speak of Each Believer, Individually. Because that work was not continually performed in each believer for Nearly 2,000 years after their death Until the Return of or "Day of Christ".

Therefore, this text speaks of the Body of Christ Corporately, not individually.


Hi ST,

Interesting point you've brought up.

He Who began a good work in you will epitelesei "shall be upon completing", a future active verb. Now, what exactly limits this to a corporate group, and prevents it from applying to each individual child of God in their own lives?

That God will complete His work in me, and His work in you, and in all of His children, right up to the end of the age?

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby shorttribber on Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:00 pm

mark s wrote:what exactly limits this to a corporate group, and prevents it from applying to each individual child of God in their own lives?

Because that Saving work is not actively in progress For and individual Christian after they are Dead (Those Individual Christians that Paul was actually speaking to at that moment)....That work can only be applied then to the Body of Christ AS ONE TOGETHER in Him and Does currently continue until Christ's return.

That's the point , it is not a promise that His work will be finished in an Apostate, who has by their free will, taken themselves away from God. But God's work Will be Finished in His Corporate Body.....that's the promise made.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby mark s on Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:23 pm

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:what exactly limits this to a corporate group, and prevents it from applying to each individual child of God in their own lives?

Because that Saving work is not actively in progress For and individual Christian after they are Dead (Those Individual Christians that Paul was actually speaking to at that moment)....That work can only be applied then to the Body of Christ AS ONE TOGETHER in Him and Does currently continue until Christ's return.

That's the point , it is not a promise that His work will be finished in an Apostate, who has by their free will, taken themselves away from God. But God's work Will be Finished in His Corporate Body.....that's the promise made.


Hi ST,

Actually, isn't everyone waiting for the resurrection/transformation of the body? That's a work that won't complete until Jesus returns. But I think He meant in terms of sanctifying our behavior.

No, I'm not saying that God is working in Christians who are with Him in His heaven. I'm saying that God is working on all of His children, here, in this realm, with His commitment to each one of us, and that this will continue for all of His children, that God will complete His good work in each of us, and that this work of God will continue until the day of Jesus Christ.

Listen, I'm simply looking at the passage. I'm not trying to "fit" it to other doctrines.

You are taking the position that there is such a thing as a "New Covenant Apostate", who has taking them self away from God.

Find where the born again die again plainly stated in Scripture.

Who is this apostate you identify? Where do I read about him in Scripture? Who is this born again one whom God abandoned to their bad behavior? To the works of their flesh?

Why so confident? Because the New Covenant is based on better promises. What makes them better? They are not reliant on my performance, on me being able, by my own will, to master my flesh.

Does the reborn new creation spirit reject God? Why would that ever be??? Seriously! Of course not! His Spirit, together with mine, call God my Daddy!

His Spirit, unified with my spirit . . . the Holy Spirit, through whom our spirit cries out Daddy! Father!

Would the old man/flesh reject God? All the time!! Like he always has, and always will.

So why would God stop listening to my new being, His child, created patterned after Himself, why would God reject that one in favor of the old man, who rejects God? Why would God stop listening to His child, and start listening to the one He killed on the cross with Jesus?

I cannot imagine why He would do such a thing!

It's a good thing I don't have to! I just have to keep reading my Bible.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby shorttribber on Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:57 pm

I can't answer the whole OSAS arguments on either side absolutely mark....I'm just saying that the text is descriptive of the Entire body of Christ Corporately and should not be used to support OSAS ideas.

I am not dogmatic in my thinking on either side of the OSAS opinions. I am still not absolutely convinced either way.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby mark s on Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:11 pm

shorttribber wrote:I am not dogmatic in my thinking on either side of the OSAS opinions. I am still not absolutely convinced either way.


Hi ST,

I most truly hope for your sake that you can settle the matter, and correctly. The answer is there, and it's important. I truly believe it is what you are seeking.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby shorttribber on Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:50 pm

mark s wrote:The answer is there, and it's important.

I know that it is important, and will be answered when the Actual meaning of Eph. 4 comes to pass in Fullness.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby mark s on Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:53 pm

All I can say is, why wait until then?? God gives us life now. Why not have the abundance?

:grin:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby shorttribber on Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:57 pm

mark s wrote:All I can say is, why wait until then?? God gives us life now. Why not have the abundance?

:grin:

I do have such abundance, even when my understanding is not absolutely complete, and only in part still
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:00 pm

shorttribber wrote:Because that Saving work is not actively in progress For and individual Christian after they are Dead (Those Individual Christians that Paul was actually speaking to at that moment)....That work can only be applied then to the Body of Christ AS ONE TOGETHER in Him and Does currently continue until Christ's return.That's the point , it is not a promise that His work will be finished in an Apostate, who has by their free will, taken themselves away from God. But God's work Will be Finished in His Corporate Body.....that's the promise made.


If I may chime in here........

First I'd like to say that I was once a nonbeliever in the OSAS doctrine. But after many years of very careful study of Scripture, I wholeheartedly believe it to be sound - and Scriptural.


In Philippians 1:3-7 Paul is absolutely addressing the Body of Christ. Salvation is an Individual Gift - as we all must appear individually before the Judgment Seat of Christ and give account of our OWN lives. Paul may have made this as a corporate speech - but the WORK of the Holy Spirit most certainly applies to the individual Christian.

There are NO works involved here - lest any man should boast.

An "Apostate" is not a Believer- therefore it would not even apply. Scripture is very, very clear about ALL that the Father has given the Son WILL COME - and of them He will lose NONE. No one can pluck those who belong to Christ from His Hand - and the term "No one" includes the individual his or herself. (John 10:28)

Therefore there is no "Free Will" involved - God Knows who belongs to Him. When the Holy Spirit indwells a Believer He is a "Seal" or "Guarantor" that the believer will have Eternal Life. (Ephesians 1:13)
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:21 am

I think the issue with OSAS is the lack of a clear definition of what "once saved" actually means.

I think of a man like SInger/ Songwriter Ray Boltz, a man who wrote many Christ centered songs, who was thought for many years to be a pillar in the Christian community. He came out as being gay and now lives a homosexual lifestyle. If he truly was saved then certainly he can no longer be since scripture tells us that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. Without repentance this man will not be saved. The question is was he really truly saved to begin with? Therein lies the need for a definition of what being "saved" is. We often equate salvation to a conversion experience, saying a prayer of repentance and "accepting" Jesus as our personal savior. But we all know people who have done this and then have gone on to continue living their lives according to the flesh and with disregard for God's word and instruction. My own sister responded to an alter call as a young teen, but she never produced any fruit, and today is a bonafied New Age liberal, who believes there are many paths to God and that hell is reserved for only the truly evil, like Hitler.

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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:39 am

Hi RT,

I am not God and therefore, I cannot say for certain about the status about the salvation of your sister. Nevertheless, in my understanding about salvation, I believe that even your sister is truly saved. I will explain...

We are all clear that salvation is by faith and not by works.

I believe that that salvation is a gift that is given to us by our confession of faith

I believe God our Father is a generous God.

That it is not in his character of righteousness to withhold a good gift to any one who asks for the gift of salvation even if he knows that the future would not hold any works to behold as evidence of our salvation.

We become children of God at our salvation and heirs of heaven and coheirs with Christ. I do not see any evidence that God will disown his children but i see God is faithful while we are not faithful.

We.are borned again. Can we die again? Once again, I don't see such possibility from scriptures.

It is an internal work.

i know our being just wants to see some evidence, just at least some evidence of Christian like behavior but to me the evidence is only possible as much as the person is willing to live via the inner man. The outer man is not redeemed and is very much still.part of us even after salvation.

Salvation involves not only The saving of our Soul but also a rebirth, a change of status to children of God and I would be hard pressed to understand that these can be reversed or withheld.

Therefore, I remain very confident that your sister is a child of God as much as yourself.

Love-in-Christ,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:33 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:Hi RT,

I am not God and therefore, I cannot say for certain about the status about the salvation of your sister. Nevertheless, in my understanding about salvation, I believe that even your sister is truly saved. I will explain...

We are all clear that salvation is by faith and not by works.

I believe that that salvation is a gift that is given to us by our confession of faith

I believe God our Father is a generous God.

That it is not in his character of righteousness to withhold a good gift to any one who asks for the gift of salvation even if he knows that the future would not hold any works to behold as evidence of our salvation.

We become children of God at our salvation and heirs of heaven and coheirs with Christ. I do not see any evidence that God will disown his children but i see God is faithful while we are not faithful.

We.are borned again. Can we die again? Once again, I don't see such possibility from scriptures.

It is an internal work.

i know our being just wants to see some evidence, just at least some evidence of Christian like behavior but to me the evidence is only possible as much as the person is willing to live via the inner man. The outer man is not redeemed and is very much still.part of us even after salvation.

Salvation involves not only The saving of our Soul but also a rebirth, a change of status to children of God and I would be hard pressed to understand that these can be reversed or withheld.

Therefore, I remain very confident that your sister is a child of God as much as yourself.

Love-in-Christ,
KA


Hi KA, I agree with much of what you have stated in your post, but I still lack your confidence. I agree for instance that God is good and does not withhold His gift of salvation from those who would ask. Yet we as humans are capable of accepting a gift yet never employing it right? You can give me a gift and I can put it in a drawer unopened. You can give me new clothes, but if I leave them perpetually hanging in the closet, it is as if I never received them. Scripture is full of examples of this behavior, the Parable of the ten talents comes to mind, the one who burried his talent in the ground is thrown out as a worthless slave into outer darkness. How about the parable of the sower? Some of the soils produce a plant but not all produce fruit,this is followed by the parable of the lamp in Luke 8,

Luke 8:16–18
16 “Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed; but he puts it on a lampstand, so that those who come in may see the light.
17 “For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”


I bolded verse 18, I believe it also applies to the parable of the sower, a similar statement also follows the parable of the talents. I realize that this is likely directed at the religious elites of Jesus's day, they thought they had God on their side, they knew God's word, but failed to act on it. But the principle I believe would apply to others as well. Scripture repeatedly says that we need to be doers of the word and not hearers only.

James 1:21–26
21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.
26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless.


Romans 2:13
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.


Matthew 7:21–27
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


James 2:14–26
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


There are more passages, but I think you get my drift. Let me add that I am not in any way claiming that external works are the thing that saves us, I agree that it is an internal work of God as you have also claimed, however, I also believe that the internal work will be evidenced externally in our works. This is what James is pointing out. This is why he says "faith without works is dead" it is why he points out rhetorically that faith without works cannot save and says clearly that it is useless.

So when you say:
That it is not in his character of righteousness to withhold a good gift to any one who asks for the gift of salvation even if he knows that the future would not hold any works to behold as evidence of our salvation.


I guess I would disagree, since that appears to contradict what James says. God is certainly righteous, and does not withhold the gift of salvation to all who would receive, but it is also within God's character to be just. He knows those who not only receive the gift but also believe it, that belief is what marries faith to works. He knows those who truly believe because when they do they cannot help but produce the evidence of it in their lives, the work of God internally always produces the outward evidence. James basically says you cannot have true faith without the works that demonstrate it.

Of course there will be those who believe who never have the time to produce fruit, to demonstrate the works of God in their lives. My mother was one of them. She was saved close to the time she died, three years before, and during that time she lived in a nursing home. Though she did not do what many would deem to be the works of God, I did see the evidence of change in her, she had joy, peace, patience, more kindness toward others, basically I saw the fruits of the spirit demonstrated in her. She didn't lead others to Christ, and did not grow much in her knowledge but there was a definite change. I am sure there are many death bed conversions as well where even that cannot happen and in those cases God knows.

My sister never showed any fruit after her "conversion experience". In fact she holds to an entirely different "path" of faith today, which is totally New Age, and not at all in accordance with God's word. I do not share your confidence of her salvation because frankly I see no Godly fruit as evidence of it. If she truly was saved I should see some fruit, even if it is just in her own spiritual growth. She should have at least earned interest on the deposit so to speak as my mother did IMO. I cannot say when actual salvation truly happens in any individual's life, only God knows, but I can say that if no evidence is seen in their lives, then I would doubt that they truly have received AND believed.

RT
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:14 pm

Hi RT,

Good points RT.

What I would say is that a gift given is a gift given. whether it is used, is another matter. We could think of it like a ticket pass to Disneyland. If I would say yes to a gift of Disneyland tickets, I have been made The righteous owner of the ticket to enter Disneyland. Now the purpose of the gift is for me to enjoy the fruit of Disneyland with the manifestation of joy and excitement being in the park around fellow people.

There is so much more than a Christian being made righteous by receiving The gift of salvation, many sadly ignore the promise of abundant Life and of peace of joy and protection, etc. But the bible says clearly thE gift of God is without repentance.

Regarding the meaning of parables, i would only say that the interpretation of them are often not that clear. Take the Parable of the Sower, we can imagine that it is talking about salvation but what if it is not? It could just be an illustration about different Types of response. 3 of them did germinate and had life right?

In the parable in Luke 8, like u rightly said, it was directed at the righteous elite. There is a danger in extrapolating it to the church.
&
Lastly, I believe God is a just God. We are all different. Not everyone has the same IQ to understand the bible, not everyone has the same EQ to behave rightly, not everyone even has a bible, or the time, or the mentor, or a church, etc... If the one who receives Christ at the deathbed is capable of being saved because it is by grace through faith, then i think it is the same for those who don't manifest Christlike behavior when they have more time to.live.

Love-in-Christ,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Why So Confident??

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:11 pm

Hi Mark,

Confidence . ?

During my life ...
The times I have felt God is on my side I have felt confident.
This is when I am working and doing and things keep falling into place as needed.

During my life ...
The times God has worked to change me I have felt no confidence.
This is when everything I do is the wrong thing and nothing works out.

What I know ... My life is in God's hands.
What I have experienced ...
. God works with each of us where we are. We judge each other too much.
. God reveals to us the good and evil in us.
. God puts us in situations that are so terribly hard, we undergo change.
. God has given me what I pursued so I would learn it was not what I really wanted.
. God is terrible. So much so that I come to him trembling in terror of my next lesson.
. God loves me. I know this because He has not given up on me.
. God loves me. I know this because of the terrifying lessons He inflicted on me for my better.

Am I confident? No, Not when I pray; I am not worthy of having prayers answered.
Am I confident? Yes. God, through terrifying, terrible, exhausting, transformative, trials of Fire that make me wish I was dead over and over again, has taught me He loves me so much He is willing to tolerate who I am while He teaches me to be a better son.

Keith
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