Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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Jay Ross wrote:Mr baldy, if you are going to insist that I have to provide scripture to justify my opinion, then you should also follow your own demand and provide the scriptures that justify your opinion.
Jay Ross wrote:Jay Ross, you seem to imply that Believers will be a part of another Resurrection - other than the First. If you believe this, then this is certainly what is very contrary to what has been written in Scripture - as Scripture is VERY CLEAR about ALL Believers being a part of the "First Resurrection - as the 2nd Death will have no Power over them".
Revelation 20:6 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Jay Ross wrote:Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.
Revelation 20:11-15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Judgment at the Throne of God
11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Mr Baldy wrote:Jay Ross wrote:Mr baldy, if you are going to insist that I have to provide scripture to justify my opinion, then you should also follow your own demand and provide the scriptures that justify your opinion.
Sure!
I wrote:Mr Baldy wrote:Jay Ross, you seem to imply that Believers will be a part of another Resurrection - other than the First. If you believe this, then this is certainly what is very contrary to what has been written in Scripture - as Scripture is VERY CLEAR about ALL Believers being a part of the "First Resurrection - as the 2nd Death will have no Power over them".
Here is Scripture:Revelation 20:6 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.Jay Ross wrote:Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.
You are leaving out a very, very important element here - and it's Called SCRIPTURE.
Jay Ross wrote:<snip>Revelation 20:4-6: -
The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV
Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.
Now if you have read Revelation 20 then it would appear that you missed the above factual statement that it contains.
Jay Ross wrote:Mr Baldy, if you cannot quote what I had written then there is no point to the discussion.
Jay Ross wrote:Mr Baldy wrote:Jay Ross wrote:Mr baldy, if you are going to insist that I have to provide scripture to justify my opinion, then you should also follow your own demand and provide the scriptures that justify your opinion.
Sure!
I wrote:Mr Baldy wrote:Jay Ross, you seem to imply that Believers will be a part of another Resurrection - other than the First. If you believe this, then this is certainly what is very contrary to what has been written in Scripture - as Scripture is VERY CLEAR about ALL Believers being a part of the "First Resurrection - as the 2nd Death will have no Power over them".
Here is Scripture:Revelation 20:6 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.Jay Ross wrote:Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.
You are leaving out a very, very important element here - and it's Called SCRIPTURE.
Mr Baldy, if you cannot quote what I had written then there is no point to the discussion. In the above quote you are implying that I did not provide any scripture to back up what I had written. Here is the quote of what I had written from which you had quoted a portion, so that you can provide an actual honest rebuttal without miss representation of what I had posted: -Jay Ross wrote:<snip>Revelation 20:4-6: -
The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV
Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.
Now if you have read Revelation 20 then it would appear that you missed the above factual statement that it contains.
Please note Mr Baldy, that I have highlighted the portion of the above quote in red so that you can recognise it.
Mr B. if you are going to miss represent what others write and also what is contained in the scriptures, then any discussion will naturally break down.
Mr Baldy wrote:Here are the Order of Resurrections:
1) At the Rapture
2) The Martyrs who die during the Tribulation Period and Come Alive at the 1,000 year Reign
3) The Two Witnesses who are "Caught Up into Heaven" prior to the end of the Great Tribulation
4) The Resurrection of those who become saved during the Millennial Kingdom
5) Those who die during the Millennial Kingdom and have accepted Christ as Savior
Mr Baldy wrote:Mr Baldy wrote:Here are the Order of Resurrections:
1) At the Rapture
2) The Martyrs who die during the Tribulation Period and Come Alive at the 1,000 year Reign
3) The Two Witnesses who are "Caught Up into Heaven" prior to the end of the Great Tribulation
4) The Resurrection of those who become saved during the Millennial Kingdom
5) Those who die during the Millennial Kingdom and have accepted Christ as Savior
shorttribber wrote:Just to join in Mr. B., The first three, imo, all occur together, and at nearly the same moment in time.There too many scriptures to specifically list here that speak to that idea though. My shortrib position and "shorttrib/prewrath" thread explains each part of my reasons for believing as I do. Just wanted to mention that.
shorttribber wrote:The last two listed (4 and 5) would also occur at the same time as 1,2 and 3 IF there is no Literal Millennial Kingdom.
shorttribber wrote:As for IF there is a Literal Millennial Kingdom, I still believe there is probably.....but I see no place in scripture where we could find a scripture for what you wrote here below regarding a resurrection of this group....."5) Those who die during the Millennial Kingdom and have accepted Christ as Savior"
1whowaits wrote:Mr B, in Matt 25, when Jesus is described as 'coming', it is not stated where He is coming from or where He is going to.
Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Judgment
31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
1whowaits wrote:The resurrection is described as 'coming to life'- 'they came to life and reigned....the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.' Rev20. At the first resurrection they 'come to life' with the 2nd resurrection being directly implied by- 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until....'. The unrighteous dead will come to life, therefore there will be a second resurrection.
1whowaits wrote:Mr B, Rev 20 does not say that only the unrighteous dead are raised in the second resurrection, it states only 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended'.
1whowaits wrote:The scripture leaves room for at least some of the righteous to be present at the GWTJ by the books referred to- 'And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books....each person was judged according to what he had done....IF anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire
1whowaits wrote:The use of 'If anyone was not found in the book', would imply that some are found in the book of life. If they are found in the book, then they are considered righteous. If the GWTJ involved only the unrighteous, the statement would be 'and no one's name was found in the book of life, not 'if anyone' was not found in the book of life.
1whowaits wrote:We know that it is faith in Christ that allows our name to be written in the Lamb's book of Life, not our own good works, it is faith in Christ that allows us to be considered righteous. But in Matt 25, at the sheep and goats event, the main focus(but not necessarily the only focus), is on the good works done or not done that determines the judgement of the righteous and unrighteous.
Jay Ross wrote:1who waits is right about there being two judgements, whoever, both of these judgements are at the end of the Millennium Age
Jay Ross wrote:At the beginning of the Millennium Age we have two fleeting visitation of Christ to the earth, the first is to deal with the armies at Armageddon and is recorded in Luke 14:31-32 and the second fleeting visitation is Christ coming to the banqueting hall to collect His bride.
Jay Ross wrote:If we have the battles pegged in the right places on the time line, then it all begins to make more sense, but we have to let go of all the "???-trib" theology which we hold dearly onto.
John 5:25-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Two Resurrections
25) Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27) and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Daniel 12:1-2 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Time of the End
12) “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
mark s wrote:Just a quick thought . . .
"If" indicates a conditional classification, and there are different classes of conditional clauses in Scripture. In certain context/syntax "if" should be more properly translated "since".
An example of this is Colossians 3:1, "If you have been raised with Him". Later it says, "for you have died". This presupposes that in fact God is addressing those who have died, and been raised in Jesus. This would then mean that the verse should actually read, "since you have been raised with Him".
This may be the same case as when God is referring to the GWTJ, If anyone's name is not found in the book. I'd have to look at it more closely to have more to say.
Much love,
Mark
1whowaits wrote:Mr B, those present at the GWTJ are not dead, they are alive as Rev 20 indicates- 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended'. Those who are dead will be raised to life at the end of the 1,000 years, at the GWTJ. At the GWTJ all are alive.
Revelation 20:11-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Judgment at the Throne of God
11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the DEADwere judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
1whowaits wrote:As the book of life is referred to, those raised at the end of the millenium could include the righteous that die during the 1,000 years, but the scripture is not specific about this.
1whowaits wrote:In Rev 20, at the GWTJ, the works of the unrighteous, those not in the Lamb's Book, are judged. Will the works of those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book have their works judged?'
For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that one may receive what is due him, for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.' 2 Cor 5:10
1whowaits wrote:Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book will have what they have done in life judged, whether good or bad, as those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book have their deeds judged. This will occur when Jesus is seated on a judgement seat, rendering judgement on deeds done, which raises the question on where else in scripture is Jesus described as sitting on a seat rendering judgement? Other than in Rev 20, where is Jesus described as rendering judgement on the deeds done by the righteous and the unrighteous? IMO that would be Matt 25.
Mr Baldy wrote:So, now the question becomes is there ONE GENERAL RESSURECTION and this ALL ENDS When Jesus Comes?
Acts 24:15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15) having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be A resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
shorttribber wrote:There's a point I would like to make regarding the Literal and Non Literal areas of the Revelation to John.
shorttribber wrote:the Prophetic IDEA of an Overpowering with a Great Chain for a thousand Years COULD be given as a Space of time where the People of God have, RESTRICED satan (By God's Power of course). Maybe satan has Deceived the nations FROM TIME to TIME over the space of nearly two thousand years, Half of That Time, nations Falling for deception, and Half of the Time NOT Falling under Deception.
Daniel 12:1-2 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12) “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
John 5:25-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
25) Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27) and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Acts 24:15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15) having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
2 Timothy 4:1 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4) I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
1 Peter 4:5 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5) but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5) This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6) For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7) and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He Comes to be glorified in His saints ON THAT DAY, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Sheep & Goats Judgment
31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Revelation 20:11-15New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Judgment at the Throne of God
11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Matthew 13:47-50 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
47) “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48) and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49) So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50) and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:30 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
30) Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”
Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>
The aforementioned passages of Scripture very clearly indicate that there appears to be only ONE General Resurrection. There are certainly other Scriptures available. IF there is a literal Millennial Kingdom then I would certainly challenge anyone to bring proof, and reconcile what other passages of Scripture with what has been mentioned.
Revelation 20:4-6: - 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Jay Ross wrote:The bible is not specific about the number resurrected, who had lost their heads for their faith in Christ, in the first resurrection over which the second death has no power, but I am sure that the resurrection of 7,000,000,000 plus people 1,000 years later would, in my opinion, be considered to be the general resurrection that you are speaking of in the last paragraph of your post above, and quoted just above. The number in the first resurrection would be considered to be too small to be considered as such.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
51) Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53) For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12) Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Acts 24:15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15) having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be
A Resurrection Of BOTH the Righteous and the Wicked.
Mr Baldy wrote:I do however, differ from your analogy of the way that you have Satan bound/restricted - as I believe that the power of deception has been continuous since the fall of man. Scripture tells us that Satan roams the Earth seeking whom he may devour - (1 Peter 5:8).
John 10:14-18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14) I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15) even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16) I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17) For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18) No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
John 14:8-9 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8) Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9) Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Colossians 1:15-20 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19) For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the FULLNESS to dwell in Him, 20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
Colossians 2:8-9 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8) See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
John 6:37-40 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
37) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the LAST DAY. 40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the LAST DAY.”
John 11:24-25 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24) Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the
LAST DAY.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies
2 Peter 3:7-13 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7) But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8) But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11) Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13) But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Jay Ross wrote:Armageddon is in our near future. and the driving button for the world is an attempt by the nation of Israel to rebuild the Temple and they will come up against Jerusalem to stop the Temple being completed. It is this at the time of this gathering, the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Isa 24:21-22, Rev 12:7-9, Rev 20:1-3).
Immediately, after the judgement of the wicked heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth, all of Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25-26), God will establish His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth, (Dan2: 44), the Son of man will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him (Dan 7:13-14, Rev , and Israel will become the bride of Christ. (Matt 25:1-12).
Then the souls of those who had been beheaded under the altar in heaven are raised up in the first resurrection to become priests with Christ for 1,000 years.
Then, after the 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked, Rev 9:1-2, 20:7, and the locusts will rise up out of the bottomless pit and torment the peoples of the earth. Their leader is the “little horn” although some suggest that there is Satan. (Rev 9:3-11)
This is then followed by the four beast of Daniel 7:1-12 rising up out of the abyss as a single beast and it will utter blasphemies against God and was given authority for 42 months and it will go and make war with the saints and conquer them. (Rev 13;1-10, Dan 7:19-27).
The little horn, called the false prophet, will also rise up out of the abyss and cause people to worship the beast and images of the beast and give people a mark to indicate that they can buy food because they willingly worship the beast.
Satan also rises up out of the abyss and realises that he has only a short time to accomplish his heart’s desire to become king over all of the peoples of the earth and he goes out to the nations at the four corners of the earth to deceive them and leads the nations in the Gog Magog war against Jerusalem and enters to establish his kingdom (Ezekiel 38-39, Rev 20:7-9a)
Christ then leads out the army from heaven and goes against the Beast and the False prophet, capturing them and throwing them into the Lake of fire very near the end of the Millennium Age Rev. 19:11-21, Dan 7:26-27) and then goes up against Satan also capturing him and throwing him into the Lake of fire (Rev 20:9b-10).
Then Death i.e. death as a result of sin, and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
It is only then that we see Christ coming in all of his glory with all of the hosts of heaven to begin the time of judgement of the peoples of the earth. At his time all of the dead are resurrected and those who are still alive will meet Christ in the air and in the twinkling of an eye all will be given resurrected bodies for the time of our judgement.
Then the two flocks will be separated and then the separated flock of the sheep and the goats will be separated as well, and the sheep will be separated from the goats and all those not found in the book of life will be dispatched into the Lake of Fire, the wicked and the Goats who did not measure up even though they call Jesus Lord, Lord.
Then the earth will be restored and healed, (Ezekiel 47:7-11) and the saints will go out onto the fields of battle to remove all of the dead bodies to purify the earth. (Ezekiel 39)
After this Christ will sound the alarm and all of the Saints will assemble to form the temple to worship God, just as Christ said he would in John 2:19.
1whowaits wrote:Mr B, actually Peter is indicating that the Lord is timeless, that to Him what a thousand years is to us is but a single day to Him.
1whowaits wrote: By using this sequence just after describing a day with the Lord being 1,000 years, Peter would be indirectly confirming the view that the Day of the Lord lasts 1,000 years.
1whowaits wrote:We know from Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 that Jesus returns in the clouds and the dead are raised to meet Him in the air, which occurs prior to Jesus returning to the earth and reigning. We know from Rev 21 and 2 Peter 3 that the current heaven and earth will be burned and remade as a new heaven and earth and Jesus will reign from the New Jerusalem with the Father.
1whowaits wrote:Is there a time described in scripture between these 2 events?
1whowaits wrote:Zech 14 describes what is consistent with armageddon and then describes a King (which would be Jesus) reigning from Jerusalem over the nations who can disobey Him and are punished when they do not worship Him. This is not consistent with the New Jerusalem and Jesus' reign in it in which there is no sin, no death, no pain, and no rebellion (the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murders, the sexually immoral, ..the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the firey lake of burning sulfur) Rev 21.
1whowaits wrote:Isa 2 also describes the Lord (Jesus) in the house of the God of Jacob (the temple) send ing out the law and settling disputes between peoples and judging the nations, again not consistent with the New Jerusalem and the end of all rebellion.
1whowaits wrote:Rev 20 indicates that this period, the period between the return at armageddon and the first resurrection and the new heaven and earth and the New Jerusalem, is the 1,000 year reign, aka the Day of the Lord,- 'In that day the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and His place of rest will be glorious...the wolf will lie down with the Lamb..and a little child will lead them' Isa 11
1whowaits wrote:Scripture clearly indicates that there will be a period after armageddon, after the first resurrection, during which Jesus reigns from the temple in Jerusalem, on an earth which has not been remade, among men who can and do rebel against Him (Gog-magog II), rebellion, pain and death still exist.
1whowaits wrote:If you do not understand the purpose of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, you might want to ask what has been the purpose of the past 6,000 years on this earth?
I further believe even more so - that it ALL ENDS when Jesus Appears - but not dogmatic about it. I need further input for those who are students of the Bible as well.
Ezekiel36:24-28
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
1whowaits wrote:ST, there is a difference between 'a day with the Lord' and 'the Day of the Lord'. Peter states a day with the Lord is as 1,000 years. Peter then states 'the Day of the Lord will come like a thief', he is referring to the Day of the Lord which begins when Jesus comes like a thief at armageddon. Peter then describes the new heaven and earth in the context of the Day of the Lord. In Rev 19- 20 armageddon and the first resurrection are described with those resurrected reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years and after the 1,000 years are over the GWTJ occurs and the new heaven and earth are made.
Rev 19-21 clearly indicate that there is a 1,000 year period between armageddon and the new heaven and earth, the period which Peter describes as the DOTL. So Peter indirectly confirms that the DOTL continues for 1,000 years, as it is Rev 19-21 that directly confirms that this period lasts for 1,000 years. Scripture interprets scripture.
Jay Ross wrote:Armageddon is in our near future. and the driving button for the world is an attempt by the nation of Israel to rebuild the Temple and they will come up against Jerusalem to stop the Temple being completed. It is this at the time of this gathering, the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Isa 24:21-22, Rev 12:7-9, Rev 20:1-3).
Immediately, after the judgement of the wicked heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth, all of Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25-26), God will establish His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth, (Dan2: 44), the Son of man will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him (Dan 7:13-14, Rev , and Israel will become the bride of Christ. (Matt 25:1-12).
Then the souls of those who had been beheaded under the altar in heaven are raised up in the first resurrection to become priests with Christ for 1,000 years.
Then, after the 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked, Rev 9:1-2, 20:7, and the locusts will rise up out of the bottomless pit and torment the peoples of the earth. Their leader is the “little horn” although some suggest that there is Satan. (Rev 9:3-11)
This is then followed by the four beast of Daniel 7:1-12 rising up out of the abyss as a single beast and it will utter blasphemies against God and was given authority for 42 months and it will go and make war with the saints and conquer them. (Rev 13;1-10, Dan 7:19-27).
The little horn, called the false prophet, will also rise up out of the abyss and cause people to worship the beast and images of the beast and give people a mark to indicate that they can buy food because they willingly worship the beast.
Satan also rises up out of the abyss and realises that he has only a short time to accomplish his heart’s desire to become king over all of the peoples of the earth and he goes out to the nations at the four corners of the earth to deceive them and leads the nations in the Gog Magog war against Jerusalem and enters to establish his kingdom (Ezekiel 38-39, Rev 20:7-9a)
Christ then leads out the army from heaven and goes against the Beast and the False prophet, capturing them and throwing them into the Lake of fire very near the end of the Millennium Age Rev. 19:11-21, Dan 7:26-27) and then goes up against Satan also capturing him and throwing him into the Lake of fire (Rev 20:9b-10).
Then Death i.e. death as a result of sin, and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
It is only then that we see Christ coming in all of his glory with all of the hosts of heaven to begin the time of judgement of the peoples of the earth. At his time all of the dead are resurrected and those who are still alive will meet Christ in the air and in the twinkling of an eye all will be given resurrected bodies for the time of our judgement.
Then the two flocks will be separated and then the separated flock of the sheep and the goats will be separated as well, and the sheep will be separated from the goats and all those not found in the book of life will be dispatched into the Lake of Fire, the wicked and the Goats who did not measure up even though they call Jesus Lord, Lord.
Then the earth will be restored and healed, (Ezekiel 47:7-11) and the saints will go out onto the fields of battle to remove all of the dead bodies to purify the earth. (Ezekiel 39)
After this Christ will sound the alarm and all of the Saints will assemble to form the temple to worship God, just as Christ said he would in John 2:19.
Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>
Jay Ross,
Very respectfully............you are ALL over the Place with what you are trying to convey here. I'm sorry, but it DOES NOT follow Scripture.
It very frankly looks like you are attempting to rearrange the order of events that are clearly established in Scripture.
Perhaps, if you are tying to convey a message hereIf so, I'm not understanding it.
Can you please give us an order of events as you see them played out - as your aforementioned series of events is very difficult to follow.
Thank you.
Looking4acity wrote:I am chiming in![]()
Looking4acity wrote:How about Ezekiel 34:11-31, Ezekiel chapters 36, 37, 47 and 48, Daniel 7:22
Jay Ross wrote:But I was expecting your usual attempt at a take down without any scriptural support to justify your claim.
Jay Ross wrote:Armageddon is in our near future. and the driving button for the world is an attempt by the nation of Israel to rebuild the Temple and they will come up against Jerusalem to stop the Temple being completed. It is this at the time of this gathering, the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Isa 24:21-22, Rev 12:7-9, Rev 20:1-3).
Jay Ross wrote:Then, after the 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked, Rev 9:1-2, 20:7, and the locusts will rise up out of the bottomless pit and torment the peoples of the earth. Their leader is the “little horn” although some suggest that there is Satan. (Rev 9:3-11)
Revelation 19:19-21 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
Doom of the Beast and False Prophet
20) And the beast was seized, AND with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21) And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Jay Ross wrote:The little horn, called the false prophet, will also rise up out of the abyss and cause people to worship the beast and images of the beast and give people a mark to indicate that they can buy food because they willingly worship the beast. Satan also rises up out of the abyss and realises that he has only a short time to accomplish his heart’s desire to become king over all of the peoples of the earth and he goes out to the nations at the four corners of the earth to deceive them and leads the nations in the Gog Magog war against Jerusalem and enters to establish his kingdom (Ezekiel 38-39, Rev 20:7-9a)
Jay Ross wrote:Christ then leads out the army from heaven and goes against the Beast and the False prophet, capturing them and throwing them into the Lake of fire very near the end of the Millennium Age Rev. 19:11-21, Dan 7:26-27) and then goes up against Satan also capturing him and throwing him into the Lake of fire (Rev 20:9b-10).
Revelation 19:20 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Doom of the Beast and False Prophet
20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Revelation 20:7 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Satan Freed, Doomed
7) When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
shorttribber wrote:1whowaits wrote:ST, there is a difference between 'a day with the Lord' and 'the Day of the Lord'. Peter states a day with the Lord is as 1,000 years. Peter then states 'the Day of the Lord will come like a thief', he is referring to the Day of the Lord which begins when Jesus comes like a thief at armageddon. Peter then describes the new heaven and earth in the context of the Day of the Lord. In Rev 19- 20 armageddon and the first resurrection are described with those resurrected reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years and after the 1,000 years are over the GWTJ occurs and the new heaven and earth are made.
Rev 19-21 clearly indicate that there is a 1,000 year period between armageddon and the new heaven and earth, the period which Peter describes as the DOTL. So Peter indirectly confirms that the DOTL continues for 1,000 years, as it is Rev 19-21 that directly confirms that this period lasts for 1,000 years. Scripture interprets scripture.
I'm not in disagreement with the idea that peter IS indirectly saying the same thing as you're saying. I still lean more in the direction of a Literal thousand year reign. I'm just saying there is also good reason to question that, and that it can't be absolutely known at this point. At least not for me.
1whowaits wrote:If you do not understand the purpose of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, you might want to ask what has been the purpose of the past 6,000 years on this earth?
Mr Baldy wrote:Jay Ross wrote:But I was expecting your usual attempt at a take down without any scriptural support to justify your claim.
I will say this.........and very diplomatically. I have noticed in just about every post you respond to, you create controversy.
I have mentioned once before that I will not respond to anything that you post - because you absolutely cannot support MANY of the things that you say with Scripture. You have a tendency to "take away" from the topic at hand, only to input your theories - and when they are challenged, you throw stones. I have gone back on a decision that I made to myself - in that I would not respond to you, and allowed myself to see if you could ever respond to events as Scripture has recorded them. Apparently, you cannot - and I will prove it.
Mr Baldy wrote:Let me give you an example of something you just wrote:Jay Ross wrote:Armageddon is in our near future. and the driving button for the world is an attempt by the nation of Israel to rebuild the Temple and they will come up against Jerusalem to stop the Temple being completed. It is this at the time of this gathering, the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Isa 24:21-22, Rev 12:7-9, Rev 20:1-3).
Now, in your aforementioned comment - there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that will support the fact that the "wicked heavenly host will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years" at the time the World will be a "driving button" to get "Israel to rebuild the temple". Furthermore, I have seen ABSOLUTELY NO evidence that Israel will be "rebuilding" the Temple as a result of Armageddon. So sir, your information is misleading.
Luke 14:28-30: - For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it — lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'
Luke 14:31-32: - Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace.
Isaiah 24:21-22: -
It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
Mr Baldy wrote:Then you say this:Jay Ross wrote:Then, after the 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked, Rev 9:1-2, 20:7, and the locusts will rise up out of the bottomless pit and torment the peoples of the earth. Their leader is the “little horn” although some suggest that there is Satan. (Rev 9:3-11)
Jay Ross, the "little horn" is the Antichrist PERIOD. At the COMING of Christ PRIOR to His Millennial Reign, (if there is indeed a very literal Millennial Reign) The Little Horn - AKA BEAST; AKA ANTICHRIST is captured ALIVE and cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. Here is the Scripture to PROVE IT:Revelation 19:19-21 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
Doom of the Beast and False Prophet
20) And the beast was seized, AND with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21) And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Scripture is VERY CLEAR about this event occurring AT His Coming! Make no mistake about this. The Antichrist is SEIZED immediately & THROWN ALIVE into the LAKE OF FIRE! So please SHOW me anywhere in Scripture where anyone EVER comes out of the Lake of Fire!
Mr Baldy wrote:You also say this:Jay Ross wrote:The little horn, called the false prophet, will also rise up out of the abyss and cause people to worship the beast and images of the beast and give people a mark to indicate that they can buy food because they willingly worship the beast. Satan also rises up out of the abyss and realises that he has only a short time to accomplish his heart’s desire to become king over all of the peoples of the earth and he goes out to the nations at the four corners of the earth to deceive them and leads the nations in the Gog Magog war against Jerusalem and enters to establish his kingdom (Ezekiel 38-39, Rev 20:7-9a)
First of all you will see absolutely NO evidence where Satan "rises out of the abyss" at the same time as the "little horn". Again, this is a very FINE example of how you are ALL OVER THE PLACE with your theory. One who is not carefully following what is written in Scripture may be very easily mislead by what you are trying to convey. This is why I have asked you to "give us an order of events as you see them played out" - because very honestly, what you have mentioned thus far does NOT line up with Scripture.
Mr Baldy wrote:You go on to mention this:Jay Ross wrote:Christ then leads out the army from heaven and goes against the Beast and the False prophet, capturing them and throwing them into the Lake of fire very near the end of the Millennium Age Rev. 19:11-21, Dan 7:26-27) and then goes up against Satan also capturing him and throwing him into the Lake of fire (Rev 20:9b-10).
Jay Ross, if you carefully read Scripture - what you have mentioned in your aforementioned series of events - the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are actually CAST ALIVE BEFORE the 1,000 year Reign and SATAN joins them AFTER the 1,000 years are up. (Revelation 19:20):Revelation 19:20 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Doom of the Beast and False Prophet
20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Doesn't get any CLEARER than that.
Here is what happens to SATAN 1,000 years later - or AFTER the Millennial Reign:Revelation 20:7 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Satan Freed, Doomed
7) When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
Now, I think it should be VERY CLEAR to you why I have mentioned that you are ALL OVER THE PLACE with your theory. It's very misleading.
Satan very clearly does NOT rise from the abyss along with the Beast and the False Prophet as you have mentioned. And they ALL most certainly DO NOT wreak havoc on the Earth AFTER the 1,000 years together, as you have mentioned - ONLY Satan does this, as the Beast and the False Prophet have already been cast into the Lake of Fire at the Return of Christ, 1,000 years prior.
Please don't hurl insults if you cannot back up what you are saying with SCRIPTURE. YOUR theory just doesn't add up Sir.
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