When Jesus Comes

[1whowaits]

Mr B, in Matt 25, when Jesus is described as 'coming', it is not stated where He is coming from or where He is going to. Jesus does come to earth but scripture also describes Him as 'coming' to heaven- 'there before me was one like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.' Dan 7.

Jesus is described as coming in the clouds of heaven and approaching the Father, who would be in heaven, Jesus is described as coming to heaven. Where would Jesus be coming from? The previous passage described the destruction of the kingdom of the AC, which Jesus will do when He comes to earth at armageddon. So Jesus coming to the Father in heaven would occur after the destruction at armageddon, Jesus would be coming from the earth.

Dan 7 also states that all people and nations will worship Jesus, which does not occur during the millenium. Zech 14 implies that there will be rebellion and those who refuse to worship Jesus as King which is punished by plague and drought, and Rev 20 indicates that men will rebel at the end of the millennium and be destroyed. All will worship Jesus only after the millennium, when all who rebel are cast into the lake of fire.

Dan 7 also states that Jesus is given authority and sovereign power, which may not occur until the end of the millennium- 'Then the end will come, when He hands the kingdom over to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.' 1 Cor 15.

Jesus will reign during the 1,000 years and will conquer all enemies and destroy all dominion, authority and power that opposes Him (Satan and his angels, evil men), the last enemy being death, which is not destroyed until after the GWTJ, which Rev 21 describes- 'there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain.'

What is described of the Son of Man who comes to heaven to the presence of the Almighty can only be fulfilled after the 1,000 year reign of Christ. IMO, what is described in Dan 7 is the scene that precedes the GWTJ, Jesus comes to heaven and approaches the Father after completing the 1,000 year reign on earth, He is given the authority and power to judge, and to establish the everlasting kingdom in the New Jerusalem. What Dan 7 describes of Jesus coming to heaven would parallel what Jesus partially describes in Matt 25, scripture interprets scripture.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr baldy, if you are going to insist that I have to provide scripture to justify my opinion, then you should also follow your own demand and provide the scriptures that justify your opinion.

Sure!

I wrote:

Jay Ross, you seem to imply that Believers will be a part of another Resurrection - other than the First. If you believe this, then this is certainly what is very contrary to what has been written in Scripture - as Scripture is VERY CLEAR about ALL Believers being a part of the "First Resurrection - as the 2nd Death will have no Power over them".

Here is Scripture:

Revelation 20:6 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.

You are leaving out a very, very important element here - and it's Called SCRIPTURE. You also seem to not plainly see that there is an order of Resurrections - yet still considered the 1st Resurrection.

Again, and I will emphasize this......the GWTJ has nothing to do with the Righteous WHATSOEVER. It is for the WICKED DEAD. It is not called the 2nd Resurrection. Again, you will NEVER find the term 2nd Resurrection in Scripture. The Judgment at the GWT will subsequently have those WICKED DEAD be brought alive, and cast into the Lake of Fire - along with death and hades:

Revelation 20:11-15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judgment at the Throne of God

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now, just so you don't miss it, I have emboldened and underlined "The Dead". It is mentioned four (4) times.
I'll say it again, the GWTJ is strictly for the WICKED DEAD. Everyone who is present there was DEAD. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Because I am pressed for time, I will provide Scripture for the rest of my comments when I return home. You clearly have no rebuttal, only to suggest that I provide Scripture. Oh, and trust me I will. You have no argument.

I hope to wrap these thoughts about the GWTJ and the Judgment of the Nations up soon - as arguing about what is clearly written goes down the proverbial "rabbit hole" and sight is lost on obtaining the main objective.

1whowaits, we are almost on the same sheet of music. I don't have time to address what you wrote, however from what I read - we will need to debate about how you have Jesus "Coming to Heaven." I will refute your argument as well when I return.

[Jay Ross]

Mr baldy, if you are going to insist that I have to provide scripture to justify my opinion, then you should also follow your own demand and provide the scriptures that justify your opinion.

Sure!

I wrote:

Jay Ross, you seem to imply that Believers will be a part of another Resurrection - other than the First. If you believe this, then this is certainly what is very contrary to what has been written in Scripture - as Scripture is VERY CLEAR about ALL Believers being a part of the "First Resurrection - as the 2nd Death will have no Power over them".

Here is Scripture:

Revelation 20:6 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.

You are leaving out a very, very important element here - and it's Called SCRIPTURE.

Mr Baldy, if you cannot quote what I had written then there is no point to the discussion. In the above quote you are implying that I did not provide any scripture to back up what I had written. Here is the quote of what I had written from which you had quoted a portion, so that you can provide an actual honest rebuttal without miss representation of what I had posted: -

<snip>

Revelation 20:4-6: -

The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV

Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.

Now if you have read Revelation 20 then it would appear that you missed the above factual statement that it contains.

Please note Mr Baldy, that I have highlighted the portion of the above quote in red so that you can recognise it.

Mr B. if you are going to miss represent what others write and also what is contained in the scriptures, then any discussion will naturally break down.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr Baldy, if you cannot quote what I had written then there is no point to the discussion.

Jay, I was pressed for time this morning, and I am currently on my lunch break right now. For the sake of time I only ANSWERED your response - my apology for not posting what your response was.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr baldy, if you are going to insist that I have to provide scripture to justify my opinion, then you should also follow your own demand and provide the scriptures that justify your opinion.

Sure!

I wrote:

Jay Ross, you seem to imply that Believers will be a part of another Resurrection - other than the First. If you believe this, then this is certainly what is very contrary to what has been written in Scripture - as Scripture is VERY CLEAR about ALL Believers being a part of the "First Resurrection - as the 2nd Death will have no Power over them".

Here is Scripture:

Revelation 20:6 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.

You are leaving out a very, very important element here - and it's Called SCRIPTURE.

Mr Baldy, if you cannot quote what I had written then there is no point to the discussion. In the above quote you are implying that I did not provide any scripture to back up what I had written. Here is the quote of what I had written from which you had quoted a portion, so that you can provide an actual honest rebuttal without miss representation of what I had posted: -

<snip>

Revelation 20:4-6: -

The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV

Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.

Now if you have read Revelation 20 then it would appear that you missed the above factual statement that it contains.

Please note Mr Baldy, that I have highlighted the portion of the above quote in red so that you can recognise it.

Mr B. if you are going to miss represent what others write and also what is contained in the scriptures, then any discussion will naturally break down.

Jay Ross - there is ABSOLUTELY nothing that has been "misrepresented" in anything that you have written by way of a response from me - So, let's make that very, very CLEAR.

Again, let's not get things so convoluted in this debate that the Main idea is missed and/or ignored with all the extra things that have already been mentioned. Where I believe you are making a very clear mistake is that you are NOT considering that at the GWTJ there are NONE but the WICKED DEAD.

You have provided Revelation 20:4-6 as an example of where "the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished" as a POINT OF REFERENCE that would indicate that the Righteous Dead will be included in this particular Resurrection - WELL YOU ARE WRONG!

Because if you go on to read Verse 6 - which by the way I provided earlier, and thought that you "may have gotten the point" - but you didn't. So Verse 6 very clearly, and very distinctly declares those who are a part of the 1st Resurrection. The 1st Resurrection is for the Righteous. This Jay Ross includes ALL of the Righteous - as the 2nd Death has NO power over them. The rest of the Dead are the WICKED DEAD, and the WICKED DEAD ONLY - that will be raised 1,000 years later at the GWTJ. Their ETERNAL Punishment is the LAKE OF FIRE - also considered the 2nd Death.

Again, perhaps an understanding of the "Order of Resurrections" that are included as the 1st Resurrection should be made readily apparent to you. I mentioned it earlier - so here it is again:

Here are the Order of Resurrections:
1) At the Rapture
2) The Martyrs who die during the Tribulation Period and Come Alive at the 1,000 year Reign
3) The Two Witnesses who are "Caught Up into Heaven" prior to the end of the Great Tribulation
4) The Resurrection of those who become saved during the Millennial Kingdom
5) Those who die during the Millennial Kingdom and have accepted Christ as Savior

I hope that you understand it now.

[shorttribber]

Mr Baldy wrote:Here are the Order of Resurrections:
1) At the Rapture
2) The Martyrs who die during the Tribulation Period and Come Alive at the 1,000 year Reign
3) The Two Witnesses who are "Caught Up into Heaven" prior to the end of the Great Tribulation
4) The Resurrection of those who become saved during the Millennial Kingdom
5) Those who die during the Millennial Kingdom and have accepted Christ as Savior

Just to join in Mr. B.,
The first three, imo, all occur together, and at nearly the same moment in time.
There too many scriptures to specifically list here that speak to that idea though. My shortrib position and "shorttrib/prewrath" thread explains each part of my reasons for believing as I do. Just wanted to mention that.

The last two listed (4 and 5) would also occur at the same time as 1,2 and 3 IF there is no Literal Millennial Kingdom.

Just say'n.

I don't have much time for debate lately though.

As for IF there is a Literal Millennial Kingdom, I still believe there is probably.....but I see no place in scripture where we could find a scripture for what you wrote here below regarding a resurrection of this group.....

"5) Those who die during the Millennial Kingdom and have accepted Christ as Savior"

[mark s]

I do not want a response to this post.


I've been reading through this thread, and I'm seeing two very noteworthy things.

One is a rather lively eschatological discussion with much Scripture being used. I think that is terrific! That's what we're here for.

The other is a continuing series of little digs and needling at others.

To this I can only say what God says:

"Let no corrupt word out of your mouth go forth, but what is good unto the needful building up, that it may give grace to the hearers."

(sorry . . . I forgot what translation this is, I think it's YLT)

We've all heard the expression, "say it in love", but what does that mean, if not that we say what we want to say because we love the other so much??

All we do, we are to do in love. If I love you, will that not be reflected in my words to you? If I love you?

[1whowaits]

Mark, my brother, thanks for your concern, some discussions can become heated at times but our words speak louder when spoken in love.

Mr B, regarding the resurrection and its timing, Paul indicates in 1 Cor 15 that we will be resurrected when Jesus returns- 'For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn; Christ, the first fruits; then, when He comes, those who belong to Him.'

When Jesus comes we will meet Him in the air- 'For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the lord forever.' 2 Thess 4

Jesus will come in the clouds after the time of great distress and gather the elect as He describes in Matt 24. Jesus' appearance in the clouds precedes His setting foot on the mount at armageddon, as described in Zech 14.

The resurrection of the righteous, the elect, occurs while Jesus is in the clouds, prior to setting foot on the earth at armageddon, the first resurrection occurs prior to armageddon. In Rev 20 the description of the 1st resurrection is described after armageddon in Rev 19, indicating that Rev 20 is discussing those who are involved in the first resurrection, not the timing of the first resurrection. Rev 19 describes armageddon and then Rev 20 goes back and reviews the resurrection which occurred prior to armageddon when Jesus was in the clouds.

The time of the first resurrection would occur when Jesus speaks- 'Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed. Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon' Rev 16.

When Jesus speaks prior to armageddon in Rev 16, He is making reference to His words in Matt 24 associating His return in the clouds with coming like a thief- 'If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief wasc oming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect Him'.

So the first resurrection occurs prior to armageddon while Jesus is in the clouds, and includes the righteous living at that time and all the righteous dead from the ages past, and those who come out of the Great tribulation.

The resurrection is described as 'coming to life'- 'they came to life and reigned....the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.' Rev20. At the first resurrection they 'come to life' with the 2nd resurrection being directly implied by- 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until....'. The unrighteous dead will come to life, therefore there will be a second resurrection.

[Mr Baldy]

Just to join in Mr. B., The first three, imo, all occur together, and at nearly the same moment in time.There too many scriptures to specifically list here that speak to that idea though. My shortrib position and "shorttrib/prewrath" thread explains each part of my reasons for believing as I do. Just wanted to mention that.

Hi Shorty,

Thanks for chiming in

As you know, I have studied your shorttrib/prewarth position - and I am in very much agreement with most, if not all that you mention. Additionally, the only difference we may have in the Order of Resurrections as it applies to the first 3 may be the Two Witnesses.

The last two listed (4 and 5) would also occur at the same time as 1,2 and 3 IF there is no Literal Millennial Kingdom.

Agreed

As for IF there is a Literal Millennial Kingdom, I still believe there is probably.....but I see no place in scripture where we could find a scripture for what you wrote here below regarding a resurrection of this group....."5) Those who die during the Millennial Kingdom and have accepted Christ as Savior"

Agreed again - hence one of the reasons why I began this Thread. I haven't ruled a Literal Millennial Kingdom out. Scripture doesn't mention EVERYTHING that will happen. But through 'reasonable deduction' - and based on other passages of Scripture which clearly state that Flesh & Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50) then those born during the Millennial Kingdom and those who are allowed to enter in mortal bodies (their parents) at the onset of the Millennial Reign of Christ - will have to be "changed"; "resurrected"; or "given a "spiritual body" in order to "Inherit" the Eternal Kingdom which will come after the GWTJ.

Thanks for your input.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B, in Matt 25, when Jesus is described as 'coming', it is not stated where He is coming from or where He is going to.

1whowaits - after reading your aforementioned comment then I ask you why have you automatically assigned this Coming in Matthew 25 as Jesus Coming to Heaven?

I mean just the plain reading of verse 31-46 leaves no other alternative but to assign His Coming to no other place but the Earth.

Here it is again:

Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Here is my rebuttal that He is NOT Coming to Heaven:

1) First of all in verse 31 "all the angels are with Him" - if He were coming to Heaven, where is He coming from? Each time ALL the angels are mentioned accompanying Jesus anywhere is AT HIS COMING to the Earth.

2) When Jesus Comes to Earth All the Righteous will be with Him - In the aforementioned passages of Scripture He Clearly separates the Righteous from the Unrighteous. There is no mention of the Nations being separated at the GWTJ.

3) If you say that this is the GWTJ - then where are the books that are opened - to include the Book of Life ? Why aren't they mentioned?

4) Where is your Order of Resurrections mentioned in the aforementioned verses?

5) What would be the purpose of a Millennial Kingdom if you have this event one and the same as the GWTJ?

6) This absolutely cannot be the GWTJ - as ONLY the Wicked Dead are present there.

Those are my reasons to believe that the Judgment of the Nations and the GWTJ cannot be the same event.

[Mr Baldy]

The resurrection is described as 'coming to life'- 'they came to life and reigned....the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.' Rev20. At the first resurrection they 'come to life' with the 2nd resurrection being directly implied by- 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until....'. The unrighteous dead will come to life, therefore there will be a second resurrection.

1whowaits - I agree with everything you have mentioned in your explanation of the Resurrections - however, the aforementioned, which is your last paragraph in that section (I didn't want to past the whole thing) begs for a bit of clarification.

Now, let me say that of course there will be a "second resurrection". I mentioned that you will NEVER find the term "Second Resurrection" in Scripture; however, it is implied. The point I'm making concerning this even is that "the rest of the dead" are VERY CLEARLY and very plainly the WICKED DEAD. The Righteous Dead will have already been resurrected in the First Resurrection - and that's why they are called "Blessed and Holy" Revelation 20:6.

"The Rest of the Dead" who do not come alive until AFTER the 1,000 years are those who appear at the Great White Throne Judgment. ONLY the DEAD appear there .......so why is that?

Well, it's because they are about to face the SECOND DEATH. The SECOND DEATH is the LAKE OF FIRE. None of those who are found standing at this Judgment (GWTJ) name's will be found in the Book of Life.

Now in mentioning this - this is where you have a very clear discrepancy in comparing Matthew 25:31-46 to the GWTJ mentioned in Revelation 20:11-15.

What say ye?

[1whowaits]

Mr B, Rev 20 does not say that only the unrighteous dead are raised in the second resurrection, it states only 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended'. Those who were dead at the time of the first resurrection and were not brought to life would be the unrighteous by implication, but that would implicate only the dead up until that time, not those that died after the first resurrection.

The scripture leaves room for at least some of the righteous to be present at the GWTJ by the books referred to- 'And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books....each person was judged according to what he had done....IF anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.'

The use of 'If anyone was not found in the book', would imply that some are found in the book of life. If they are found in the book, then they are considered righteous. If the GWTJ involved only the unrighteous, the statement would be 'and no one's name was found in the book of life, not 'if anyone' was not found in the book of life.

We know that it is faith in Christ that allows our name to be written in the Lamb's book of Life, not our own good works, it is faith in Christ that allows us to be considered righteous. But in Matt 25, at the sheep and goats event, the main focus(but not necessarily the only focus), is on the good works done or not done that determines the judgement of the righteous and unrighteous.

Where in scripture is such a parallel found, a judgement based on what had been done, as stated- 'for I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink...'Matt 25, perhaps it would be something like-'the dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books...each person was judged according to what he had done' ?

That would be the Great White Throne Judgement.

[1whowaits]

Mr B. Matt 25 and Rev 20 are describing different aspects of the same event, what is mentioned in one perspective may not be mentioned in the other. But there are enough common aspects to conclude that the same event is being discussed. But if there are contradictory descriptions given, then it is unlikely the same event is being described.

When Jesus returns at armageddon, He comes with 'The armies of heaven were following Him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.' Fine linen, white and clean refers to a specific group- 'For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, white and clean was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints) Rev 19.

At armageddon, when Jesus returns to earth, He is followed by the Bride, the saints, angels are not mentioned in Rev 19, when Jesus comes to earth. When Jesus 'comes' to His throne in Matt 25, only angels are mentioned, the Bride is not mentioned prominently as when Jesus comes to earth at armageddon.

[Jay Ross]

Ezekiel 34:17 speaks of two times of judgement. A flock from a flock, often translated as cattle from cattle or sheep from sheep, separating out those who call Jesus Lord, Lord from those who do not acknowledge Jesus is Lord who are in Rev 20 sent into the Lake of fire. The second judgement that follows is the judgement of the Sheep from the rams, and this judgement is found in Matt 25:31-46.

1who waits is right about there being two judgements, however, both of these judgements are at the end of the Millennium Age. At the beginning of the Millennium Age we have two fleeting visitation of Christ to the earth, the first is to deal with the armies at Armageddon and is recorded in Luke 14:31-32 and the second fleeting visitation is Christ coming to the banqueting hall to collect His bride.

The battle at the end of the Millennium Age is the Gog Magog battle which Satan leads against the Saints and Jerusalem.
This battle is the one when the birds come to eat much flesh as recorded in Rev 19"17-21. the battle where the beast and the false prophet, i.e. the little horn is captured by Jesus and thrown into the lake of Fire which is immediately followed by Satan also being captured and thrown into the lake of fire.

If we have the battles pegged in the right places on the time line, then it all begins to make more sense, but we have to let go of all the "???-trib" theology which we hold dearly onto.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B, Rev 20 does not say that only the unrighteous dead are raised in the second resurrection, it states only 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended'.

Very true, Revelation 20 does not say "only the unrighteous dead are raised in the second resurrection". But whom do you believe are the "rest of the dead"

The scripture leaves room for at least some of the righteous to be present at the GWTJ by the books referred to- 'And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books....each person was judged according to what he had done....IF anyone's name was not found in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire

1whowaits, you may be missing something here. In my previous post I put emphasis on the DEAD at this Judgment. There is NO one that appeared ALIVE at the GWTJ - until after an apparent resurrection. It goes on to say the DEAD were judged. So, while Scripture may "leave room" for one to speculate that the righteous may appear it doesn't add up, or make sense.

The use of 'If anyone was not found in the book', would imply that some are found in the book of life. If they are found in the book, then they are considered righteous. If the GWTJ involved only the unrighteous, the statement would be 'and no one's name was found in the book of life, not 'if anyone' was not found in the book of life.

I like this argument Now, I would like you to explain HOW the righteous arrive there, when there has been an apparent 1st resurrection that includes the righteous both dead and alive. How do you now have them resurrected with the unrighteous dead 1,000 years later?

We know that it is faith in Christ that allows our name to be written in the Lamb's book of Life, not our own good works, it is faith in Christ that allows us to be considered righteous. But in Matt 25, at the sheep and goats event, the main focus(but not necessarily the only focus), is on the good works done or not done that determines the judgement of the righteous and unrighteous.

Interesting point - and I am very glad that you have mentioned this. At the Matthew 25:31-46 - "Judgment of the Nations" the Sheep & Goats are "SEPARATED" you have NO such separation at the GWTJ. Not only that, but at the GWTJ, all who appear before the Great White Throne are DEAD only to be brought to live for this Judgment. At the Judgement of the Nations/Sheep & Goats event - ALL are ALIVE, as there is no mention of them being dead. As a matter of fact, the wicked are sent to death. So here in lies just one of your discrepancies in making this One and the Same Judgment.

[Mr Baldy]

1who waits is right about there being two judgements, whoever, both of these judgements are at the end of the Millennium Age

Jay Ross, 1whowaits never says that there are "two judgments". He believes that the Sheep & Goats/Judgment of the Nations - are one and the same as the GWTJ.

At the beginning of the Millennium Age we have two fleeting visitation of Christ to the earth, the first is to deal with the armies at Armageddon and is recorded in Luke 14:31-32 and the second fleeting visitation is Christ coming to the banqueting hall to collect His bride.

To my knowledge Christ Returns ONLY ONCE. If you have Him Returning two times, then please prove your point with Scripture.

If we have the battles pegged in the right places on the time line, then it all begins to make more sense, but we have to let go of all the "???-trib" theology which we hold dearly onto.

Now this is a statement I can agree upon.

[Mr Baldy]

Now......to anyone whom may be reading this particular Debate - and since you Jay Ross, and 1whowaits has already contributed input on the Resurrection(s) and Judgments I would like to known how you reconcile the following passages of scripture:

John 5:25-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Two Resurrections

25) Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27) and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

AND:

Daniel 12:1-2 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Time of the End

12) “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

In the aforementioned passages of Scripture one seems to imply a Single Resurrection - while the other seems to imply that there is a possibility of Two Resurrections. I would like to know your thoughts.

[mark s]

Just a quick thought . . .

"If" indicates a conditional classification, and there are different classes of conditional clauses in Scripture. In certain context/syntax "if" should be more properly translated "since".

An example of this is Colossians 3:1, "If you have been raised with Him". Later it says, "for you have died". This presupposes that in fact God is addressing those who have died, and been raised in Jesus. This would then mean that the verse should actually read, "since you have been raised with Him".

This may be the same case as when God is referring to the GWTJ, If anyone's name is not found in the book. I'd have to look at it more closely to have more to say.

Much love,
Mark

[1whowaits]

Mr B, those present at the GWTJ are not dead, they are alive as Rev 20 indicates- 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended'. Those who are dead will be raised to life at the end of the 1,000 years, at the GWTJ. At the GWTJ all are alive.

As the book of life is referred to, those raised at the end of the millenium could include the righteous that die during the 1,000 years, but the scripture is not specific about this.

The GWTJ involves judgement based on what had been done (the dead were judged according to what they had done), and whether their names were written in the Lamb's book of life. The Lamb's Book determines one's salvation, whether one's name is in the book or not, but the other books list the deeds done, the works are judged also.

In Rev 20, at the GWTJ, the works of the unrighteous, those not in the Lamb's Book, are judged. Will the works of those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book have their works judged?

'For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that one may receive what is due him, for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.' 2 Cor 5:10

Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book will have what they have done in life judged, whether good or bad, as those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book have their deeds judged. This will occur when Jesus is seated on a judgement seat, rendering judgement on deeds done, which raises the question on where else in scripture is Jesus described as sitting on a seat rendering judgement? Other than in Rev 20, where is Jesus described as rendering judgement on the deeds done by the righteous and the unrighteous? IMO that would be Matt 25.

Also, Jesus sitting on the Great White Throne, the judgement seat, does not end with the judgement of the dead raised to life at the end of the 1,000 years. Rev 21 goes on to describe Jesus' rewards of the righteous while He is still on the Great White Throne, the eternal inheritance is received by the righteous while Jesus is still seated, which again parallels Matt 25.

[Mr Baldy]

Just a quick thought . . .

"If" indicates a conditional classification, and there are different classes of conditional clauses in Scripture. In certain context/syntax "if" should be more properly translated "since".

An example of this is Colossians 3:1, "If you have been raised with Him". Later it says, "for you have died". This presupposes that in fact God is addressing those who have died, and been raised in Jesus. This would then mean that the verse should actually read, "since you have been raised with Him".

This may be the same case as when God is referring to the GWTJ, If anyone's name is not found in the book. I'd have to look at it more closely to have more to say.

Much love,
Mark

Could be.....thanks for you input. Your information is precisely the point I was attempting to make about the GWTJ.

"IF" there is indeed a Millennial Kingdom, then I really don't believe that ANY Righteous will be at the GWTJ. Makes no sense.

[Mr Baldy]

1whowaits.......just want to make a few quick points on something you wrote:

Mr B, those present at the GWTJ are not dead, they are alive as Rev 20 indicates- 'the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended'. Those who are dead will be raised to life at the end of the 1,000 years, at the GWTJ. At the GWTJ all are alive.

1whowaits - of course they are alive at that point. They are standing before the Throne of God. But John describes them as the DEAD. Here AGAIN is what John said:

Revelation 20:11-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judgment at the Throne of God

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the DEADwere judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Ok 1whowaits - there it is....so let's not CONFUSE the issue here. They are the DEAD as John as very clearly described them. These are none other than the Wicked Dead who will stand before Jesus at the GWTJ.

As the book of life is referred to, those raised at the end of the millenium could include the righteous that die during the 1,000 years, but the scripture is not specific about this.

Glad you mentioned this. The aforementioned is ONE of the reasons why I have doubt about there being a very literal Millennial Kingdom. But more on this as we progress through this study together.

In Rev 20, at the GWTJ, the works of the unrighteous, those not in the Lamb's Book, are judged. Will the works of those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book have their works judged?'

For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that one may receive what is due him, for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.' 2 Cor 5:10

I am glad that you have raised this particular question.......more on this later

Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book will have what they have done in life judged, whether good or bad, as those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book have their deeds judged. This will occur when Jesus is seated on a judgement seat, rendering judgement on deeds done, which raises the question on where else in scripture is Jesus described as sitting on a seat rendering judgement? Other than in Rev 20, where is Jesus described as rendering judgement on the deeds done by the righteous and the unrighteous? IMO that would be Matt 25.

Now, as you mention the aforementioned, I want to personally thank you 1whowaits for delving into Scripture and bringing such questions to the forum. In the last series of questions you have asked - something should have sprung up in your mind. You have so decisively united the Judgments mentioned in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 together to be one and the same. Well, GOOD FOR YOU! Very, very good thinking outside of the box, and using your God given desire to research Scripture to find out the Truth.

There is only one problem that I have with what you have presented. And that is you have not been able to unite the Two Judgments together in a way that they work in harmony with each other according to Scripture. You see 1whowaits, if you haven't already noticed it - you CANNOT have a Sheep & Goats Judgment and the GWTJ to be ONE and the Same - and include a Millennial Reign of Christ. It just doesn't add up.

So, now the question becomes is there ONE GENERAL RESSURECTION and this ALL ENDS When Jesus Comes?

[shorttribber]

So, now the question becomes is there ONE GENERAL RESSURECTION and this ALL ENDS When Jesus Comes?

That is the Big Question...absolutely.

The One Scripture that I can't reconcile when it comes to the pondering of a Non Literal 1,000 year kingdom is the following text.....

Rev 20
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

I can't conceive of Any Time Period that satan could be perceived as, up until even today, Not deceiving the Nations.

Meaning, it must be yet future.

[Mr Baldy]

Now to those who may be following this thread, and really desire to know the Truth - I ask that you would participate in submitting any input, and/or asking any questions that may contribute to edifying the Body of Christ in order that we may also glorify Him - and gain understanding.

There is so much lies, deception, and evil ever abounding in our World that we Believers must be well grounded in the Word of God - and be able to give an account and explain why we believe as we believe.

In my very humble opinion as I delve deeper into the Word - I am truly beginning to believe that there "MAY" only be One General Resurrection - and that for the DEAD; both Righteous & Unrighteous.

We have had those who want to take Revelation 20 and make an entire doctrine out of it, and say dogmatically that there will indeed be a Millennial Reign of Christ - and/or a very literal Millennial Kingdom. Well, I'm just not so sure about that.

These Judgments that have been brought up: The Sheep & Goats Judgment - also know as the "Judgment of the Nations" mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46; and the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ) mentioned in Revelation 20, just may indeed be One and the Same.

If these Two Judgments are One and the same - then there is absolutely NO need for a Millennial Kingdom - and it ALL Ends at His Coming.

There are MANY passages of Scripture which seem to suggest that the LAST DAY means the last day - or the End of the Word as we know it. There are also many passages of Scripture which seem to indicate that there is ONLY ONE general Resurrection - and it seems to be only for the DEAD. I can think of one in particular that immediately comes to my mind:

Acts 24:15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be A resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

There are many more which I will indicate that seem to imply that there will be ONE General Resurrection for the DEAD.

[shorttribber]

There's a point I would like to make regarding the Literal and Non Literal areas of the Revelation to John.

First...regarding the text I mentioned above, I would point out that it can be reconciled with a Non Literal kingdom IF the Confining of the dragon/satan in the pit IS to be Understood as Non Literal.

First, the imagery of the Revelation to John is very often easily able to be perceived as Non Literal.
Second, and speaking of the non literal aspect of the text...here...
Rev 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Are we to believe that satan/the dragon is to be Literally Chained up with a GIANT CHAIN? Now, for the literalist...ok, I suppose it could be possible. But it does SEEM to be more likely that the Great Chain COULD BE meant for our understanding as "Spiritually Speaking".

There is something that I have considered before, and am now thinking that it may be a Possible Explanation that Reconciles these mysteries.

For the person who will not consider the possibility that the numerous visions within the primary vision/revelation to John were not absolutely sequential, this (what I will suggest) will automatically be rejected. That's fine, but I will offer you another text that you must stand by your absolute rule then.

Here it is....
Rev 5
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Have you noticed the problem yet, with the Absolute Rule of Sequential order of the Revelation to John?

This is a difficult place for this statement unless it is considered to be Something that God CALLS as DONE or Occurring at that Moment, that Clearly Can't Literally Occur on Earth until Much Later in the Real Time Sequence.


Now, keeping that example in mind, the Prophetic IDEA of an Overpowering with a Great Chain for a thousand Years COULD be given as a Space of time where the People of God have, RESTRICED satan (By God's Power of course). Maybe satan has Deceived the nations FROM TIME to TIME over the space of nearly two thousand years, Half of That Time, nations Falling for deception, and Half of the Time NOT Falling under Deception.

Now think about this just a minute. What I'm saying is that there may not have been a sequential thousand years of satan's non deception....but an on and off again RULING of the People of God OVER satan that would fulfill One Thousand Years of the Two thousand since Christ's first coming!

This idea also would answer the following text....
Rev 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


What say ye Mr. B, and others?

[Jay Ross]

As far as I am concerned, the Book of Revelation is not sequential.

let me show an example: -

Rev 9:1: - Then the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the abyss.

Rev 20:7-8: - Now when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to bring them together for the battle. They are as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea.

Other chapters cover the same time period: -

Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 cover the same time period, the Millennium age.

[Mr Baldy]

There's a point I would like to make regarding the Literal and Non Literal areas of the Revelation to John.

the Prophetic IDEA of an Overpowering with a Great Chain for a thousand Years COULD be given as a Space of time where the People of God have, RESTRICED satan (By God's Power of course). Maybe satan has Deceived the nations FROM TIME to TIME over the space of nearly two thousand years, Half of That Time, nations Falling for deception, and Half of the Time NOT Falling under Deception.

Shorty, I for one will not rule out the idea of Satan being chained in a very "Non-Literal" way to express this 1,000 year rule as well. Nor do I think that the visions given to John have to be sequential.

I do however, differ from your analogy of the way that you have Satan bound/restricted - as I believe that the power of deception has been continuous since the fall of man. Scripture tells us that Satan roams the Earth seeking whom he may devour - (1 Peter 5:8).

I think part of the problem with those who study the End Times and attempt to make Revelation 20 and the passages in Isiah 65 and Zechariah 14 dogmatically imply a very literal Millennial Kingdom have to consider - that death, sin, and rebellion will still occur "IF" there is indeed a very literal Millennial Kingdom. So, this so-called era of PEACE would have to be explained, if Satan is literally bound during this time period.

Again, I will not rule out a Millennial Kingdom - but there are a few things that need to be explained in order to bring this idea into harmony with other passages of Scripture. There are MANY passages of Scripture that seem to imply that there will be only ONE General Resurrection - and it ALL Ends when Christ Appears.

[Mr Baldy]

Now for those who believe in a very literal Millennial Kingdom, which would require 2 resurrections separated by a 1,000 years. Here are some passages of Scripture to consider:

Daniel 12:1-2 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12) “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

John 5:25-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

25) Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27) and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

2 Timothy 4:1 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4) I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

1 Peter 4:5 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5) but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5) This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6) For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7) and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8) dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9) These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10) when He Comes to be glorified in His saints ON THAT DAY, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

The aforementioned passages of Scripture very clearly indicate that there appears to be only ONE General Resurrection. There are certainly other Scriptures available. IF there is a literal Millennial Kingdom then I would certainly challenge anyone to bring proof, and reconcile what other passages of Scripture with what has been mentioned.

[Mr Baldy]

Again - here are the Two Judgments that were debated:

Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Sheep & Goats Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

AND

Revelation 20:11-15New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judgment at the Throne of God

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I'm starting to believe that these Two Judgments are indeed the same. I believe that even as every "detail" is not mentioned - as Matthew describes one - and John describes the other they have so many similarities, that they can be reconciled as One Judgment. This leave doubt - at least for me that there is a literal Millennial Kingdom.

I further believe even more so - that it ALL ENDS when Jesus Appears - but not dogmatic about it. I need further input for those who are students of the Bible as well.

Here are some additional Scriptures to sort of bring this all in:

Matthew 13:47-50 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

47) “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48) and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49) So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50) and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

AND

Matthew 13:30 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

30) Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”

The aforementioned passages of Scripture appear to work in harmony with the Judgment(s) mentioned by Matthew and John. Additionally, Jesus specifically mentions the LAST DAY over, and over again.....

More later......

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

The aforementioned passages of Scripture very clearly indicate that there appears to be only ONE General Resurrection. There are certainly other Scriptures available. IF there is a literal Millennial Kingdom then I would certainly challenge anyone to bring proof, and reconcile what other passages of Scripture with what has been mentioned.

Revelation 20:4-6: - 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The bible is not specific about the number resurrected, who had lost their heads for their faith in Christ, in the first resurrection over which the second death has no power, but I am sure that the resurrection of 7,000,000,000 plus people 1,000 years later would, in my opinion, be considered to be the general resurrection that you are speaking of in the last paragraph of your post above, and quoted just above. The number in the first resurrection would be considered to be too small to be considered as such.

But then who is counting?

[Mr Baldy]

The bible is not specific about the number resurrected, who had lost their heads for their faith in Christ, in the first resurrection over which the second death has no power, but I am sure that the resurrection of 7,000,000,000 plus people 1,000 years later would, in my opinion, be considered to be the general resurrection that you are speaking of in the last paragraph of your post above, and quoted just above. The number in the first resurrection would be considered to be too small to be considered as such.

Jay Ross,

I think you may be misunderstanding what I was trying to convey - or perhaps I did not explain myself very well. I never mentioned a "number" as far as the Resurrection is concerned.

I supplied all those passages of Scripture to show that it "may" imply ONE General Resurrection for the Righteous DEAD and Wicked DEAD, when Jesus Comes.

Keep in mind - the Resurrection is for the DEAD only. Those of us who are Alive at the Return of Christ will be "Changed".

There is a difference between being "Changed" and being Resurrected from DEATH. This is why I believe that the GWTJ mentioned may be One and the Same as the Sheep & Goats Judgment.

Here is what Paul had to say about it:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

51) Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53) For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The aforementioned is Paul's implication about those who are ALIVE at the Return of Christ. We will ALL be Changed.

AND

1 Corinthians 15:12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

12) Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Now - as I have mentioned this before; here is a very convincing passage of Scripture that indicates ONE Resurrection:

Acts 24:15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be
A Resurrection Of BOTH the Righteous and the Wicked.

[shorttribber]

I do however, differ from your analogy of the way that you have Satan bound/restricted - as I believe that the power of deception has been continuous since the fall of man. Scripture tells us that Satan roams the Earth seeking whom he may devour - (1 Peter 5:8).

I couldn't agree more Mr. B.. The whole of what you're saying, for the most part I do agree with also. What I should have said was that the Deception restrained was maybe Certain Kinds or Limited Kind of Deceptions.

That the people of God have been able to, for a thousand years on and of DURING the past two thousand, able to Rule Against certain Forms of Deception.

[Jay Ross]

Mr B. I was only commenting on your comments with regards to a “General Resurrection,” and discounting that the First resurrection was a part of the general resurrection that you were commenting on because of the number of people that would be involved in the General resurrection, i.e. the Second resurrection, by implication of there having been a first resurrection.

We also have the implications of the following passage with respect to Christ as to when the refurbished bodies will become available.

Matt 26:27-29: – 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it, new/{renewed} with you in My Father's kingdom."

[Mr Baldy]

Now, as we continue in this study, I believe that it is very important that we understand the Supremacy of Jesus Christ.

Here are a few passages of Scripture to consider, as we establish what happens "When Jesus Comes":

John 10:14-18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14) I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15) even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16) I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17) For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18) No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

In the aforementioned passage of Scripture, Jesus describes His relationship with those who belong to Him - those who are the sheep (Elect/Chosen) and those "which are not of this fold" (Those who come to Him) but "Hear His Voice" and "will become one flock with One Shepherd". So here, I believe is a demonstration of "Election" and " Free Will/Choice". But this is another topic

Additionally, Jesus very clearly describes the Authority that has been given to Him by God the Father.

Something to consider what is mentioned here is: He gives up His Life by His "Own initiative" - and He has "Authority to take it up again". So, what does this mean? How can Jesus after laying down His Own Life -"Take it up again"?

Let's now look at this:

John 14:8-9 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8) Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9) Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

The Supremacy of Jesus Christ should now be readily apparent in the aforementioned passage of Scripture as far as who the God is that we will visibly see throughout Eternity. It's JESUS!
He won't be holding us by the hand, and walking us over to the Throne and introducing us to God the Father.

Additionally:

Colossians 1:15-20 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19) For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the FULLNESS to dwell in Him, 20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

AND:

Colossians 2:8-9 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8) See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

I have mentioned ALL the above passages of Scripture to clearly demonstrate the Absolute Supremacy of Jesus Christ.

Paul in the aforementioned passages of Scripture mentions Twice that the Fullness of God dwells in Jesus in bodily form. Make no mistake about this - Jesus Christ is the ONLY GOD we will ever see throughout Eternity. I have not mentioned this to get into a debate over the Godhead - as NO MAN understands this Mystery. However, it is very clear that it is Jesus - and HIM ALONE whom we all shall worship, and come to as Lord and Savior.

[Mr Baldy]

Here is what Jesus further describes what will happen When He Comes:

John 6:37-40 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

37) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the LAST DAY. 40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the LAST DAY.”

AND

John 11:24-25 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

24) Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the
LAST DAY.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies

The aforementioned passages too imply a General Resurrection on the LAST DAY.

More and more - I am beginning to believe that it ALL ENDS - When Jesus Comes!

[Mr Baldy]

Continuing on with this study........

I see that as of this moment, no one has challenged what has been posted, or supplied any additional information in order to edify ourselves with knowledge, and Glorify Christ.

Now, I want to compare what the Apostle Peter described as the "Day of the Lord" and how it appears to work in perfect Harmony with the LAST DAY; the Coming of Christ; and the GWTJ - as it ALL appears to happen on the same DAY:

2 Peter 3:7-13 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

7) But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8) But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9) The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10) But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11) Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12) looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13) But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

There are many passages of Scripture that WARNS the Body of Christ to be prepared for His Return. Some want to take the aforementioned passage of Scripture - where it mentions a "with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day - and turn it out to be a very Literal 1,000 year Reign of Christ - HOWEVER, it's not really saying that. It is very clearly saying that one single day with Christ is like being with Him for a 1,000 years.

I personally believe that the Return of Christ will be so Glorious - that a Millennial Kingdom will be irrelevant to those who believe because we will be with Him Anyway!

We have a depiction of some very serious events going on at His Return, The aforementioned passage of Scripture seems to confirm that when He Appears - then that will be I! And all that is mentioned above works in absolute harmony with the GWTJ.

[1whowaits]

Mr B, actually Peter is indicating that the Lord is timeless, that to Him what a thousand years is to us is but a single day to Him. And then Peter goes on to to state that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief, which is what Jesus compared His coming in the clouds prior to armageddon to, and finishes with a new heaven heaven and earth being made, which in Rev 20-21 occurs 1,000 years later. By using this sequence just after describing a day with the Lord being 1,000 years, Peter would be indirectly confirming the view that the Day of the Lord lasts 1,000 years.

We know from Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 that Jesus returns in the clouds and the dead are raised to meet Him in the air, which occurs prior to Jesus returning to the earth and reigning. We know from Rev 21 and 2 Peter 3 that the current heaven and earth will be burned and remade as a new heaven and earth and Jesus will reign from the New Jerusalem with the Father.

Is there a time described in scripture between these 2 events?

Zech 14 describes what is consistent with armageddon and then describes a King (which would be Jesus) reigning from Jerusalem over the nations who can disobey Him and are punished when they do not worship Him. This is not consistent with the New Jerusalem and Jesus' reign in it in which there is no sin, no death, no pain, and no rebellion (the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murders, the sexually immoral, ..the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the firey lake of burning sulfur) Rev 21.

Isa 2 also describes the Lord (Jesus) in the house of the God of Jacob (the temple) send ing out the law and settling disputes between peoples and judging the nations, again not consistent with the New Jerusalem and the end of all rebellion.

Joel 3 also describes what is consistent with armageddon and the indicates that the Lord (Jesus) will dwell in Zion on His holy hill (the temple), but Egypt will be desolate and Edom will be a desert waste, a description not consistent with a new remade earth.

Scripture clearly indicates that there will be a period after armageddon, after the first resurrection, during which Jesus reigns from the temple in Jerusalem, on an earth which has not been remade, among men who can and do rebel against Him (Gog-magog II), rebellion, pain and death still exist.

Rev 20 indicates that this period, the period between the return at armageddon and the first resurrection and the new heaven and earth and the New Jerusalem, is the 1,000 year reign, aka the Day of the Lord,- 'In that day the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and His place of rest will be glorious...the wolf will lie down with the Lamb..and a little child will lead them' Isa 11

If you do not understand the purpose of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, you might want to ask what has been the purpose of the past 6,000 years on this earth?

[Jay Ross]

Armageddon is in our near future. and the driving button for the world is an attempt by the nation of Israel to rebuild the Temple and they will come up against Jerusalem to stop the Temple being completed. It is this at the time of this gathering, the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Isa 24:21-22, Rev 12:7-9, Rev 20:1-3).

Immediately, after the judgement of the wicked heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth, all of Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25-26), God will establish His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth, (Dan2: 44), the Son of man will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him (Dan 7:13-14, Rev , and Israel will become the bride of Christ. (Matt 25:1-12).

Then the souls of those who had been beheaded under the altar in heaven are raised up in the first resurrection to become priests with Christ for 1,000 years.

Then, after the 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked, Rev 9:1-2, 20:7, and the locusts will rise up out of the bottomless pit and torment the peoples of the earth. Their leader is the “little horn” although some suggest that there is Satan. (Rev 9:3-11)

This is then followed by the four beast of Daniel 7:1-12 rising up out of the abyss as a single beast and it will utter blasphemies against God and was given authority for 42 months and it will go and make war with the saints and conquer them. (Rev 13;1-10, Dan 7:19-27).

The little horn, called the false prophet, will also rise up out of the abyss and cause people to worship the beast and images of the beast and give people a mark to indicate that they can buy food because they willingly worship the beast.

Satan also rises up out of the abyss and realises that he has only a short time to accomplish his heart’s desire to become king over all of the peoples of the earth and he goes out to the nations at the four corners of the earth to deceive them and leads the nations in the Gog Magog war against Jerusalem and enters to establish his kingdom (Ezekiel 38-39, Rev 20:7-9a)

Christ then leads out the army from heaven and goes against the Beast and the False prophet, capturing them and throwing them into the Lake of fire very near the end of the Millennium Age Rev. 19:11-21, Dan 7:26-27) and then goes up against Satan also capturing him and throwing him into the Lake of fire (Rev 20:9b-10).

Then Death i.e. death as a result of sin, and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.

It is only then that we see Christ coming in all of his glory with all of the hosts of heaven to begin the time of judgement of the peoples of the earth. At his time all of the dead are resurrected and those who are still alive will meet Christ in the air and in the twinkling of an eye all will be given resurrected bodies for the time of our judgement.

Then the two flocks will be separated and then the separated flock of the sheep and the goats will be separated as well, and the sheep will be separated from the goats and all those not found in the book of life will be dispatched into the Lake of Fire, the wicked and the Goats who did not measure up even though they call Jesus Lord, Lord.

Then the earth will be restored and healed, (Ezekiel 47:7-11) and the saints will go out onto the fields of battle to remove all of the dead bodies to purify the earth. (Ezekiel 39)

After this Christ will sound the alarm and all of the Saints will assemble to form the temple to worship God, just as Christ said he would in John 2:19.

[shorttribber]

Armageddon is in our near future. and the driving button for the world is an attempt by the nation of Israel to rebuild the Temple and they will come up against Jerusalem to stop the Temple being completed. It is this at the time of this gathering, the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Isa 24:21-22, Rev 12:7-9, Rev 20:1-3).

Immediately, after the judgement of the wicked heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth, all of Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25-26), God will establish His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth, (Dan2: 44), the Son of man will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him (Dan 7:13-14, Rev , and Israel will become the bride of Christ. (Matt 25:1-12).

Then the souls of those who had been beheaded under the altar in heaven are raised up in the first resurrection to become priests with Christ for 1,000 years.

Then, after the 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked, Rev 9:1-2, 20:7, and the locusts will rise up out of the bottomless pit and torment the peoples of the earth. Their leader is the “little horn” although some suggest that there is Satan. (Rev 9:3-11)

This is then followed by the four beast of Daniel 7:1-12 rising up out of the abyss as a single beast and it will utter blasphemies against God and was given authority for 42 months and it will go and make war with the saints and conquer them. (Rev 13;1-10, Dan 7:19-27).

The little horn, called the false prophet, will also rise up out of the abyss and cause people to worship the beast and images of the beast and give people a mark to indicate that they can buy food because they willingly worship the beast.

Satan also rises up out of the abyss and realises that he has only a short time to accomplish his heart’s desire to become king over all of the peoples of the earth and he goes out to the nations at the four corners of the earth to deceive them and leads the nations in the Gog Magog war against Jerusalem and enters to establish his kingdom (Ezekiel 38-39, Rev 20:7-9a)

Christ then leads out the army from heaven and goes against the Beast and the False prophet, capturing them and throwing them into the Lake of fire very near the end of the Millennium Age Rev. 19:11-21, Dan 7:26-27) and then goes up against Satan also capturing him and throwing him into the Lake of fire (Rev 20:9b-10).

Then Death i.e. death as a result of sin, and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.

It is only then that we see Christ coming in all of his glory with all of the hosts of heaven to begin the time of judgement of the peoples of the earth. At his time all of the dead are resurrected and those who are still alive will meet Christ in the air and in the twinkling of an eye all will be given resurrected bodies for the time of our judgement.

Then the two flocks will be separated and then the separated flock of the sheep and the goats will be separated as well, and the sheep will be separated from the goats and all those not found in the book of life will be dispatched into the Lake of Fire, the wicked and the Goats who did not measure up even though they call Jesus Lord, Lord.

Then the earth will be restored and healed, (Ezekiel 47:7-11) and the saints will go out onto the fields of battle to remove all of the dead bodies to purify the earth. (Ezekiel 39)

After this Christ will sound the alarm and all of the Saints will assemble to form the temple to worship God, just as Christ said he would in John 2:19.

Jay,
Even if at this time I don't agree with your position or time ideas, i will say that you have listed a good sound and brief explanation of what the scriptures could be saying to us. it is a reasonable way to look at it also.

Just say'n.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B, actually Peter is indicating that the Lord is timeless, that to Him what a thousand years is to us is but a single day to Him.

1whowaits, I actually agree with your statement - but then you say this:

By using this sequence just after describing a day with the Lord being 1,000 years, Peter would be indirectly confirming the view that the Day of the Lord lasts 1,000 years.

Oh really now

It appears as if there is a contradiction in what you have mentioned. You dogmatically say that "a day with the Lord is 1,000 years" - Scripture says that it is "AS" 1,000 years - so for you to say that "Peter would be indirectly confirming that the view that the Day of the Lord last 1,000 years" would be incorrect. Peter hasn't confirmed anything. That would be your interpretation.

[Mr Baldy]

We know from Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 that Jesus returns in the clouds and the dead are raised to meet Him in the air, which occurs prior to Jesus returning to the earth and reigning. We know from Rev 21 and 2 Peter 3 that the current heaven and earth will be burned and remade as a new heaven and earth and Jesus will reign from the New Jerusalem with the Father.

I agree.......more on this later.

Is there a time described in scripture between these 2 events?

That is the $64,000 question.

Zech 14 describes what is consistent with armageddon and then describes a King (which would be Jesus) reigning from Jerusalem over the nations who can disobey Him and are punished when they do not worship Him. This is not consistent with the New Jerusalem and Jesus' reign in it in which there is no sin, no death, no pain, and no rebellion (the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murders, the sexually immoral, ..the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the firey lake of burning sulfur) Rev 21.

No doubt that Zechariah 14 presents problems to having it ALL END when He appears. We need to look deeper into what you have wrote here.........(running late for work, but just want to comment )

Isa 2 also describes the Lord (Jesus) in the house of the God of Jacob (the temple) send ing out the law and settling disputes between peoples and judging the nations, again not consistent with the New Jerusalem and the end of all rebellion.

We'll discuss this as well.

Rev 20 indicates that this period, the period between the return at armageddon and the first resurrection and the new heaven and earth and the New Jerusalem, is the 1,000 year reign, aka the Day of the Lord,- 'In that day the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and His place of rest will be glorious...the wolf will lie down with the Lamb..and a little child will lead them' Isa 11

This needs to be further examined as well.

Scripture clearly indicates that there will be a period after armageddon, after the first resurrection, during which Jesus reigns from the temple in Jerusalem, on an earth which has not been remade, among men who can and do rebel against Him (Gog-magog II), rebellion, pain and death still exist.

Scripture please. A lot of what you have mentioned seems to be gathered from those from the Pre-Tribulation Camp. This too needs to be further examined with a very close eye of Scripture.

If you do not understand the purpose of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, you might want to ask what has been the purpose of the past 6,000 years on this earth?

If you are going to mention this - then put forth your evidence, and not an opinion.

[Looking4acity]

I am chiming in


Mr Baldy wrote:

I further believe even more so - that it ALL ENDS when Jesus Appears - but not dogmatic about it. I need further input for those who are students of the Bible as well.

How about Ezekiel 34:11-31, Ezekiel chapters 36, 37, 47 and 48, Daniel 7:22

Here is one snip:

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Ezekiel36:24-28

[1whowaits]

ST, there is a difference between 'a day with the Lord' and 'the Day of the Lord'. Peter states a day with the Lord is as 1,000 years. Peter then states 'the Day of the Lord will come like a thief', he is referring to the Day of the Lord which begins when Jesus comes like a thief at armageddon. Peter then describes the new heaven and earth in the context of the Day of the Lord. In Rev 19- 20 armageddon and the first resurrection are described with those resurrected reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years and after the 1,000 years are over the GWTJ occurs and the new heaven and earth are made.

Rev 19-21 clearly indicate that there is a 1,000 year period between armageddon and the new heaven and earth, the period which Peter describes as the DOTL. So Peter indirectly confirms that the DOTL continues for 1,000 years, as it is Rev 19-21 that directly confirms that this period lasts for 1,000 years. Scripture interprets scripture.

[shorttribber]

ST, there is a difference between 'a day with the Lord' and 'the Day of the Lord'. Peter states a day with the Lord is as 1,000 years. Peter then states 'the Day of the Lord will come like a thief', he is referring to the Day of the Lord which begins when Jesus comes like a thief at armageddon. Peter then describes the new heaven and earth in the context of the Day of the Lord. In Rev 19- 20 armageddon and the first resurrection are described with those resurrected reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years and after the 1,000 years are over the GWTJ occurs and the new heaven and earth are made.

Rev 19-21 clearly indicate that there is a 1,000 year period between armageddon and the new heaven and earth, the period which Peter describes as the DOTL. So Peter indirectly confirms that the DOTL continues for 1,000 years, as it is Rev 19-21 that directly confirms that this period lasts for 1,000 years. Scripture interprets scripture.

I'm not in disagreement with the idea that peter IS indirectly saying the same thing as you're saying. I still lean more in the direction of a Literal thousand year reign. I'm just saying there is also good reason to question that, and that it can't be absolutely known at this point. At least not for me.

[Mr Baldy]

Armageddon is in our near future. and the driving button for the world is an attempt by the nation of Israel to rebuild the Temple and they will come up against Jerusalem to stop the Temple being completed. It is this at the time of this gathering, the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Isa 24:21-22, Rev 12:7-9, Rev 20:1-3).

Immediately, after the judgement of the wicked heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth, all of Israel will be saved (Rom 11:25-26), God will establish His Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth, (Dan2: 44), the Son of man will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him (Dan 7:13-14, Rev , and Israel will become the bride of Christ. (Matt 25:1-12).

Then the souls of those who had been beheaded under the altar in heaven are raised up in the first resurrection to become priests with Christ for 1,000 years.

Then, after the 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked, Rev 9:1-2, 20:7, and the locusts will rise up out of the bottomless pit and torment the peoples of the earth. Their leader is the “little horn” although some suggest that there is Satan. (Rev 9:3-11)

This is then followed by the four beast of Daniel 7:1-12 rising up out of the abyss as a single beast and it will utter blasphemies against God and was given authority for 42 months and it will go and make war with the saints and conquer them. (Rev 13;1-10, Dan 7:19-27).

The little horn, called the false prophet, will also rise up out of the abyss and cause people to worship the beast and images of the beast and give people a mark to indicate that they can buy food because they willingly worship the beast.

Satan also rises up out of the abyss and realises that he has only a short time to accomplish his heart’s desire to become king over all of the peoples of the earth and he goes out to the nations at the four corners of the earth to deceive them and leads the nations in the Gog Magog war against Jerusalem and enters to establish his kingdom (Ezekiel 38-39, Rev 20:7-9a)

Christ then leads out the army from heaven and goes against the Beast and the False prophet, capturing them and throwing them into the Lake of fire very near the end of the Millennium Age Rev. 19:11-21, Dan 7:26-27) and then goes up against Satan also capturing him and throwing him into the Lake of fire (Rev 20:9b-10).

Then Death i.e. death as a result of sin, and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.

It is only then that we see Christ coming in all of his glory with all of the hosts of heaven to begin the time of judgement of the peoples of the earth. At his time all of the dead are resurrected and those who are still alive will meet Christ in the air and in the twinkling of an eye all will be given resurrected bodies for the time of our judgement.

Then the two flocks will be separated and then the separated flock of the sheep and the goats will be separated as well, and the sheep will be separated from the goats and all those not found in the book of life will be dispatched into the Lake of Fire, the wicked and the Goats who did not measure up even though they call Jesus Lord, Lord.

Then the earth will be restored and healed, (Ezekiel 47:7-11) and the saints will go out onto the fields of battle to remove all of the dead bodies to purify the earth. (Ezekiel 39)

After this Christ will sound the alarm and all of the Saints will assemble to form the temple to worship God, just as Christ said he would in John 2:19.

Jay Ross,

Very respectfully............you are ALL over the Place with what you are trying to convey here. I'm sorry, but it DOES NOT follow Scripture.

It very frankly looks like you are attempting to rearrange the order of events that are clearly established in Scripture.

Perhaps, if you are tying to convey a message here If so, I'm not understanding it.

Can you please give us an order of events as you see them played out - as your aforementioned series of events is very difficult to follow.

Thank you.

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

Jay Ross,

Very respectfully............you are ALL over the Place with what you are trying to convey here. I'm sorry, but it DOES NOT follow Scripture.

It very frankly looks like you are attempting to rearrange the order of events that are clearly established in Scripture.

Perhaps, if you are tying to convey a message here If so, I'm not understanding it.

Can you please give us an order of events as you see them played out - as your aforementioned series of events is very difficult to follow.

Thank you.

Mr Baldy, you are making a bold statement that I am all over the place and not following scripture, with my above summary. Have you considered that your understanding of events, which are all over the place as far as I am concerned, is the reason why you do not understand what I have posted.

In other words the issue is with you and not with what I have posted.

But I was expecting your usual attempt at a take down without any scriptural support to justify your claim.

[Mr Baldy]

I am chiming in

Hi looking4acity - thanks for "Chiming in"

How about Ezekiel 34:11-31, Ezekiel chapters 36, 37, 47 and 48, Daniel 7:22

I have read the aforementioned passages of Scripture that you have provided.

Please prove how any of these passages of Scripture very clearly describe a "literal" Messianic Kingdom?

Thank you.

[Mr Baldy]

But I was expecting your usual attempt at a take down without any scriptural support to justify your claim.

I will say this.........and very diplomatically. I have noticed in just about every post you respond to, you create controversy.

I have mentioned once before that I will not respond to anything that you post - because you absolutely cannot support MANY of the things that you say with Scripture. You have a tendency to "take away" from the topic at hand, only to input your theories - and when they are challenged, you throw stones. I have went back on a decision that I made to myself - in that I would not respond to you, and allowed myself to see if you could ever respond to events as Scripture has recorded them. Apparently, you cannot - and I will prove it.

Let me give you an example of something you just wrote:

Armageddon is in our near future. and the driving button for the world is an attempt by the nation of Israel to rebuild the Temple and they will come up against Jerusalem to stop the Temple being completed. It is this at the time of this gathering, the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Isa 24:21-22, Rev 12:7-9, Rev 20:1-3).

Now, in your aforementioned comment - there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that will support the fact that the "wicked heavenly host will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years" at the time the World will be a "driving button" to get "Israel to rebuild the temple". Furthermore, I have seen ABSOLUTELY NO evidence that Israel will be "rebuilding" the Temple as a result of Armageddon. So sir, your information is misleading.

Then you say this:

Then, after the 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked, Rev 9:1-2, 20:7, and the locusts will rise up out of the bottomless pit and torment the peoples of the earth. Their leader is the “little horn” although some suggest that there is Satan. (Rev 9:3-11)

Jay Ross, the "little horn" is the Antichrist PERIOD. At the COMING of Christ PRIOR to His Millennial Reign, (if there is indeed a very literal Millennial Reign) The Little Horn - AKA BEAST; AKA ANTICHRIST is captured ALIVE and cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. Here is the Scripture to PROVE IT:

Revelation 19:19-21 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Doom of the Beast and False Prophet

20) And the beast was seized, AND with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21) And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Scripture is VERY CLEAR about this event occurring AT His Coming! Make no mistake about this. The Antichrist is SEIZED immediately & THROWN ALIVE into the LAKE OF FIRE! So please SHOW me anywhere in Scripture where anyone EVER comes out of the Lake of Fire!

You also say this:

The little horn, called the false prophet, will also rise up out of the abyss and cause people to worship the beast and images of the beast and give people a mark to indicate that they can buy food because they willingly worship the beast. Satan also rises up out of the abyss and realises that he has only a short time to accomplish his heart’s desire to become king over all of the peoples of the earth and he goes out to the nations at the four corners of the earth to deceive them and leads the nations in the Gog Magog war against Jerusalem and enters to establish his kingdom (Ezekiel 38-39, Rev 20:7-9a)

First of all you will see absolutely NO evidence where Satan "rises out of the abyss" as the same time as the "little horn". Again, this is a very FINE example of how you are ALL OVER THE PLACE with your theory. One who is not carefully following what is written in Scripture may be very easily mislead by what you are trying to convey. This is why I have asked you to "give us an order of events as you see them played out" - because very honestly, what you have mentioned thus far does NOT line up with Scripture.

You go on to mention this:

Christ then leads out the army from heaven and goes against the Beast and the False prophet, capturing them and throwing them into the Lake of fire very near the end of the Millennium Age Rev. 19:11-21, Dan 7:26-27) and then goes up against Satan also capturing him and throwing him into the Lake of fire (Rev 20:9b-10).

Jay Ross, if you carefully read Scripture - what you have mentioned in your aforementioned series of events - the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are actually CAST ALIVE BEFORE the 1,000 year Reign and SATAN joins them AFTER the 1,000 years are up. (Revelation 19:20):

Revelation 19:20 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Doom of the Beast and False Prophet

20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Doesn't get any CLEARER than that.

Here is what happens to SATAN 1,000 years later - or AFTER the Millennial Reign:

Revelation 20:7 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Satan Freed, Doomed

7) When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison

Now, I think it should be VERY CLEAR to you why I have mentioned that you are ALL OVER THE PLACE with your theory. It's very misleading.

Satan very clearly does NOT rise from the abyss along with the Beast and the False Prophet as you have mentioned. And they ALL most certainly DO NOT wreak havoc on the Earth AFTER the 1,000 years together, as you have mentioned - ONLY Satan does this, as the Beast and the False Prophet have already been cast into the Lake of Fire at the Return of Christ, 1,000 years prior.

Please don't hurl insults if you cannot back up what you are saying with SCRIPTURE. YOUR theory just doesn't add up Sir.

[Mr Baldy]

ST, there is a difference between 'a day with the Lord' and 'the Day of the Lord'. Peter states a day with the Lord is as 1,000 years. Peter then states 'the Day of the Lord will come like a thief', he is referring to the Day of the Lord which begins when Jesus comes like a thief at armageddon. Peter then describes the new heaven and earth in the context of the Day of the Lord. In Rev 19- 20 armageddon and the first resurrection are described with those resurrected reigning with Jesus for 1,000 years and after the 1,000 years are over the GWTJ occurs and the new heaven and earth are made.

Rev 19-21 clearly indicate that there is a 1,000 year period between armageddon and the new heaven and earth, the period which Peter describes as the DOTL. So Peter indirectly confirms that the DOTL continues for 1,000 years, as it is Rev 19-21 that directly confirms that this period lasts for 1,000 years. Scripture interprets scripture.

I'm not in disagreement with the idea that peter IS indirectly saying the same thing as you're saying. I still lean more in the direction of a Literal thousand year reign. I'm just saying there is also good reason to question that, and that it can't be absolutely known at this point. At least not for me.

I echo your statement, and your observation Shorty

Furthermore, I am interested in learning "IF" the information mentioned in Revelation 20 as far as a 1,000 year period is not all metaphorical language?

There is very good reason to question whether it is or not - based on the MANY other passages of Scripture that very clearly indicate a LAST DAY - and a General Resurrection for the DEAD.

[Mr Baldy]

1whowaits,

As it is just about this old man's bed time - I want you to know that I will respond at a later time to the most excellent passages of Scripture that you have posted and/or used to attempt your theory.

But here is one I want to again comment on:

If you do not understand the purpose of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, you might want to ask what has been the purpose of the past 6,000 years on this earth?

I understand what the purpose of the past 6,000 and may I add (+) years for Christ's interaction on this Earth is. It is for the redemption of mankind, who became LOST after the fall. He is the SAVIOR!

So, I ask you - what would be the purpose of the Millennial Kingdom?

Meaning, what would be the purpose of redemption in the Millennial Kingdom, if those who are going to be saved throughout Eternity can't have it completed while this present time exists? Are they so special or perhaps even mentally challenged that they need His personal appearance in order to understand Salvation?

Please answer this if you can.....

[Jay Ross]

But I was expecting your usual attempt at a take down without any scriptural support to justify your claim.

I will say this.........and very diplomatically. I have noticed in just about every post you respond to, you create controversy.

I have mentioned once before that I will not respond to anything that you post - because you absolutely cannot support MANY of the things that you say with Scripture. You have a tendency to "take away" from the topic at hand, only to input your theories - and when they are challenged, you throw stones. I have gone back on a decision that I made to myself - in that I would not respond to you, and allowed myself to see if you could ever respond to events as Scripture has recorded them. Apparently, you cannot - and I will prove it.

Mr B I have already provided a summary of the end time event as I see them, apparently very clearly and with scriptural support. The difference is that I am not a ???-tribber of any sort and this lens, of a ???-triber, that you use to interpret scripture, is where the error is on your part.

Let me give you an example of something you just wrote:

Armageddon is in our near future. and the driving button for the world is an attempt by the nation of Israel to rebuild the Temple and they will come up against Jerusalem to stop the Temple being completed. It is this at the time of this gathering, the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Isa 24:21-22, Rev 12:7-9, Rev 20:1-3).

Now, in your aforementioned comment - there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that will support the fact that the "wicked heavenly host will be judged along with the kings of the earth and they will be imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years" at the time the World will be a "driving button" to get "Israel to rebuild the temple". Furthermore, I have seen ABSOLUTELY NO evidence that Israel will be "rebuilding" the Temple as a result of Armageddon. So sir, your information is misleading.

It is a known fact that Israel has been quietly acquiring the parts to build the temple quickly.

Luke 14:28-30: - For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it — lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

Matthew 21:33-43 also talks about a tower in a garden where the tower is code for a “temple,” But you do not have to accept that interpretation because it does not explicitly mention that it is the temple.

Then the Luke Passage goes on with the following which describes the judgement of the kings of the earth and their armies who have assembled very near to Jerusalem.

Luke 14:31-32: - Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace.

This passage of scripture is describing the judgement of the nations at Armageddon

In the above quote of your response to what I had written you then go on to miss quote me.
This is what you claimed that I had written: -
at the time the World will be a "driving button" to get "Israel to rebuild the temple".
When in fact what I had written is the following: -
[Armageddon is in our near future. and the driving button for the world is an attempt by the nation of Israel to rebuild the Temple and they will come up against Jerusalem to stop the Temple being completed.

You then go on to say that there is no scriptural proof that the wicked heavenly hosts will be judged at the same time as the Kings of the earth but the scriptural reference that I provided states the following:-

Isaiah 24:21-22: -

It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.

Then you say this:

Then, after the 1,000 years, the Bottomless pit will be unlocked, Rev 9:1-2, 20:7, and the locusts will rise up out of the bottomless pit and torment the peoples of the earth. Their leader is the “little horn” although some suggest that there is Satan. (Rev 9:3-11)

Jay Ross, the "little horn" is the Antichrist PERIOD. At the COMING of Christ PRIOR to His Millennial Reign, (if there is indeed a very literal Millennial Reign) The Little Horn - AKA BEAST; AKA ANTICHRIST is captured ALIVE and cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. Here is the Scripture to PROVE IT:

Revelation 19:19-21 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Doom of the Beast and False Prophet

20) And the beast was seized, AND with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21) And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Scripture is VERY CLEAR about this event occurring AT His Coming! Make no mistake about this. The Antichrist is SEIZED immediately & THROWN ALIVE into the LAKE OF FIRE! So please SHOW me anywhere in Scripture where anyone EVER comes out of the Lake of Fire!

Previously, I had stated in this thread that Rev 19 and Rev 20 are parallel passages which unfold at the same time.

Rev 19 begins at the start of the Millennium Age and then some time after the Bottomless pit is unlocked, the beast and the false prophet go out to do their thing as described in Rev 13

Rev 19 and Rev 20 are not sequential as you understand these two chapters to be. Therein lies your problem with you understanding of these two chapters.

You also say this:

The little horn, called the false prophet, will also rise up out of the abyss and cause people to worship the beast and images of the beast and give people a mark to indicate that they can buy food because they willingly worship the beast. Satan also rises up out of the abyss and realises that he has only a short time to accomplish his heart’s desire to become king over all of the peoples of the earth and he goes out to the nations at the four corners of the earth to deceive them and leads the nations in the Gog Magog war against Jerusalem and enters to establish his kingdom (Ezekiel 38-39, Rev 20:7-9a)

First of all you will see absolutely NO evidence where Satan "rises out of the abyss" at the same time as the "little horn". Again, this is a very FINE example of how you are ALL OVER THE PLACE with your theory. One who is not carefully following what is written in Scripture may be very easily mislead by what you are trying to convey. This is why I have asked you to "give us an order of events as you see them played out" - because very honestly, what you have mentioned thus far does NOT line up with Scripture.

I am sorry that you believe that your interpretation of scripture is the only true interpretation and that everybody else should conform to your understanding.

The scriptures that I provided do support my “theory.”

You go on to mention this:

Christ then leads out the army from heaven and goes against the Beast and the False prophet, capturing them and throwing them into the Lake of fire very near the end of the Millennium Age Rev. 19:11-21, Dan 7:26-27) and then goes up against Satan also capturing him and throwing him into the Lake of fire (Rev 20:9b-10).

Jay Ross, if you carefully read Scripture - what you have mentioned in your aforementioned series of events - the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are actually CAST ALIVE BEFORE the 1,000 year Reign and SATAN joins them AFTER the 1,000 years are up. (Revelation 19:20):

Revelation 19:20 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Doom of the Beast and False Prophet

20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Doesn't get any CLEARER than that.

Here is what happens to SATAN 1,000 years later - or AFTER the Millennial Reign:

Revelation 20:7 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Satan Freed, Doomed

7) When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison

Now, I think it should be VERY CLEAR to you why I have mentioned that you are ALL OVER THE PLACE with your theory. It's very misleading.

Satan very clearly does NOT rise from the abyss along with the Beast and the False Prophet as you have mentioned. And they ALL most certainly DO NOT wreak havoc on the Earth AFTER the 1,000 years together, as you have mentioned - ONLY Satan does this, as the Beast and the False Prophet have already been cast into the Lake of Fire at the Return of Christ, 1,000 years prior.

Please don't hurl insults if you cannot back up what you are saying with SCRIPTURE. YOUR theory just doesn't add up Sir.

Sadly I have the same opinion of our theory and I know that it is not supported by scripture as you are using your own flawed interpretation to prove your understanding is correct.

It seems to me that you are pushing a “pre-trib”/”pre-millennium” theory and it does not stack up. You are also pushing that the Millennium Age is not a literal age with your study in this thread.

I have been able to provide, with scriptural evidence, that your theory is wrong. Whether or not you accept that evidence is really up to you. I am sure that many readers can see the flaws in your theory.