When Jesus Comes

[Mr Baldy]

Hello All,

There have been many theories about the Return of Christ. Most believe that the next prophetic sign is the "Rapture of the Church". They believe that nothing else needs to be in place prior to His Coming; and that the Rapture can occur at any moment (more on this later) - as this is in error.

Then there are those who have many theories about the Man of Sin - aka: Antichrist. There are erroneous views about him becoming "God-like"; "he has to be a Jew"; Or "he will not have the desire of women"; and "he has to be around the age of Jesus 33 when he appears" - "gook looking"; "charismatic"; "European; or Islamic." And the list goes on.

Then we have those who think that we will be in Heaven - and we don't have to worry about the Great Tribulation; or the appearance of the coming Antichrist. If you believe this then I intend to prove that the Church will indeed go through the Great Tribulation - at least the majority of it.

Now, I must say that I sincerely question those modern day so called Prophets that pretend they have it all right. Well, truth of the matter is NO ONE does. And we won't actually know the full Truth until Prophecy has been Fulfilled. I also question those who believe that we will escape persecution and/or the Great Tribulation because we are in the "Church Age". This is nonsense people. Please read "Foxe's Book of Martyrs". The Disciples and many men of God died horrible deaths for their faith in Christ - the Church is no different. Not to mention God's Son died a HORRIBLE Death on the Cross.

Then (as it relates to men/women) we have those who want to self-anoint or self-proclaim themselves as Prophets; Prophetess; Apostles; Evangelist; Healers; and other self-anointed Titles and/or possess certain gifts - that no longer are required. Yet not one of them has raised anyone from the dead. Let me say that there were only 12 special men that God Sovereignly created for His Eternal purposes. There will NEVER be any other men created like the 12 Apostles were. They were created for a divine purpose, somewhat like the Angels when they were created. The Archangel Michael is an example.

Okay, didn't mean to get on a soapbox......but I just wanted to establish a platform or paint a picture for what I believe will happen: When Jesus Comes.

First - When Jesus Comes, it will be the LAST DAY - make no mistake about this.

The very First Clue that we are given, or the very next prophetic sign is the appearance of the coming Antichrist - NOT the Rapture of the Church. This is what Paul had to say:

2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)


Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4) who opposes and exalts himself above [e]every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Now that we have established that the Coming of Jesus occurs at the same time that we are gathered together to Him will NOT precede the revealing of the Antichrist - WHO will be revealed AT the AOD. What will be the FIRST sign that we will see right before He Appears?

Well, Matthew 24:29-31 answers that:

The Glorious Return

29) “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The aforementioned passages of Scripture mentions the SIGN. Many speculate what this SIGN will be -but the truth of the matter is: WE DON'T KNOW - nor do we know how long it will have appeared prior to His Coming.

After the SIGN - Christ Returns.......and does this:

Zechariah 14:4-5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4) in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5) You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee Justas you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah King of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come and all the holy ones with Him!

The aforementioned is an AMAZING even to occur!

This Day is further described as:

Zechariah 14:6-7 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6) In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7) For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but will come about that at evening time there will be light.

So we have a UNIQUE DAY known only to the Lord in which He Comes. His feet touch the Mount of Olives and a valley is created. We have those that flee to Him - but who are those - and what subsequently happens to them? Well we know that they are not those in immortal bodies that come with Him. There is a difference...these that flee towards Him are those who have survived the Great Tribulation, and are in mortal bodies.

In Matthew 25:31-46 we are given a further description of what happens "When Jesus Comes"

31) "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34) "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37) The then righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?" 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40) The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to the one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

41) "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you game Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44) Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45) The He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So here are the events in order:

1) The AOD - Antichrist is Revealed
2) Great Tribulation ensues
3) The Sign in Heaven Appears
4) The Trumpet Sounds
5) Christ descends to the Earth
6) The Dead in Christ meet Him in the air
7) Those that are alive in Christ meet Him after those who have died in Him
8) His feet touch the Mount of Olives which splits in half from East to West
9) Those who have survived the Great Tribulation flee towards Him
10) Judgment Ensues

Now, there are some things that should be questioned in what I just mentioned.........

[1whowaits]

Mr B, i would agree with some of what you have written regarding the timing of events, i would only add a couple of points. The AOD occurs and the GT ensues and 3.5 years later, the signs of the DOTL take place. In Rev 6 the sky rolls back like a scroll and men hide from the face of God and the wrath of the Lamb, they can see God in Heaven, apparently the veil between the physical world and the spirit word is torn and rolled back and men can see God and Jesus, this may be the 'sign' of the Son of Man.

Isa 2 also describes this event and states only God will be exalted, which places this event after the GT, only God is exalted when Jesus returns at the time of judgement, the time of Armageddon, after the GT.

Jesus is seen in the clouds, He has not descended to earth, and the 'elect' are gathered, 'caught up' to Him at the last Trump, the dead first, then those who believe who are still alive and on the earth, and all will be changed, likely at the Feast of Trumpets, aka the day that no one knows (Matt 24, 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4)

The nations mourn, Israel looks upon the 'One who was Pierced' and mourns while they are in Jerusalem, at the time of Armageddon (Zech 12,), prior to Jesus setting foot on the mount in Zech 14, Jesus would still be in the clouds. God pours out His Spirit, when Israel repents, and Jesus descends and sets foot on the mount and rescues Israel, who flees through the valley created, likely on the Day of Atonement (7th seal and trumpet), aka judgement day. Isa 61 and 63 appear to equate the year of Jubilee, the year of the Lord's favor, with Armagedon, the day of vengeance of our God. The Year of Jubilee always begins on the Day of Atonement.

Just my .02.

[Mr Baldy]

Hi 1whowaits,

Thank you for your response.

You wrote:

In Rev 6 the sky rolls back like a scroll and men hide from the face of God and the wrath of the Lamb, they can see God in Heaven, apparently the veil between the physical world and the spirit word is torn and rolled back and men can see God and Jesus, this may be the 'sign' of the Son of Man.

I find this very interesting. This is what Revelation 6 has to say about what you just mentioned:

Revelation 6:12-17 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Sixth Seal

12) I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13) and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14) The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15) Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16) and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17) for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

What you have mentioned parallels Matthew 24:29-31 - (which describes the events mentioned in Revelation 6 as well)

The Glorious Return

29) “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [k]the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [m]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Then you wrote:

Jesus is seen in the clouds, He has not descended to earth, and the 'elect' are gathered, 'caught up' to Him at the last Trump, the dead first, then those who believe who are still alive and on the earth, and all will be changed, likely at the Feast of Trumpets, aka the day that no one knows (Matt 24, 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4)

Now, this is where you and I have a different interpretation. In Revelation 6, you mentioned that "God and Jesus are seen by those dwelling on Earth". First of all, Jesus is GOD - when you've seen Him, you've seen the Father, so let's be very clear about that, as not to confuse those who may be reading this. Jesus is the ONLY GOD we will ever see throughout Eternity.

Where we have a difference of interpretation of is you have Jesus and the "elect" apparently hovering in the sky. You mention that He is "seen in the clouds" - this means He has left Heaven and/or His Throne, so therefore there is a "descension". While it is true that the elect are gathered from the four winds - this implies that the Rapture has indeed occurred. If you look at the aforementioned verses of Scripture in Matthew 24:29-31 it clearly describes Him COMING - and not hovering in the air.

You also write:

[

The nations mourn, Israel looks upon the 'One who was Pierced' and mourns while they are in Jerusalem, at the time of Armageddon (Zech 12,), prior to Jesus setting foot on the mount in Zech 14, Jesus would still be in the clouds.

Very interesting........... Just a few questions:

1) Just how long do you have Jesus hovering in the clouds?

2) As you have His descension somewhat delayed to the Earth - has He taken the Elect to Heaven during this pause in the sky - or are they with Him hovering in the sky as well?

3) If Jesus is "still in the clouds" as the Earthquakes, Sun darkened, and Moon turned to blood have occurred - what would be the purpose for this delay to the Earth?

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I completely disagree Mr Baldy, but you and I have been down that path before so hesitate to engage in that debate just to rehash what has already been said, however I do take issue with this statement:

There will NEVER be any other men created like the 12 Apostles were. They were created for a divine purpose, somewhat like the Angels when they were created. The Archangel Michael is an example.

Certainly the 12 apostles were unique in history as they were the only ones hand picked by Christ to be in His inner circle. But to say that they were created in a similar manner as angels or the archangel Micheal is a big stretch imo. Were they created especially for their special task? God knew when they were created what task they would perform, but to say that they were special creations of God cannot be supported by scripture.

[Mr Baldy]

I completely disagree Mr Baldy, but you and I have been down that path before so hesitate to engage in that debate just to rehash what has already been said, however I do take issue with this statement:

Actually, a good healthy disagreement is good for the soul.

Certainly the 12 apostles were unique in history as they were the only ones hand picked by Christ to be in His inner circle. But to say that they were created in a similar manner as angels or the archangel Micheal is a big stretch imo.

Look, let's not misrepresent what I very CLEARLY stated. I NEVER said that the 12 Apostles were "created in a similar manner as angels". So before you allow your temper to flare up - take a step back and carefully read what has been written. AGAIN, this is what I wrote:

There will NEVER be any other men created like the 12 Apostles were. They were created for a divine purpose, somewhat like the Angels when they were created. The Archangel Michael is an example.

I said that they were created for a "divine purpose" - in other words like the Angels or even Michael the Archangel. They have a "divine purpose" not that they were created the same. The 12 had a very specific purpose, for a divine reason and they were given special gifts - like to raise the dead; healing; and to prophesize. The gifts they possessed are no longer used by modern day men - if so why can't men do these gifts today? Angels were created for a specific purpose as well, like carrying out messages - and in comparison to Michael, who was also created for a divine purpose, none of them have his duty which only he alone can perform.

So sit back, take a deep breath and RELAX.

[1whowaits]

Mr B, Jesus being seen 'in the clouds' does not necessarily mean Jesus has left heaven if the opening to heaven is in the clouds. Heaven is a parallel plane of existence and need not be light years away, it could be next door, or a few thousand feet above the earth. Rev 6 describes the sky being rolled back like a scroll and men calling to be hidden from the presence or face of God and the Lamb, the implication being that they can see the One they wish to be hidden from whom they realize can now see them.

In Rev 19 heaven is described as standing open with Jesus preparing to fight the armies and kings gathered at armageddon, there is an opening to heaven at that time. So if the opening to heaven is revealed by the sky being rolled back like a scroll, Jesus can be seen in the clouds while He is still in heaven, the opening would be at the level of the clouds.

In Isa 2 the temple mount is raised up to be a higher mountain than the surrounding terrain during the millenium, and it appears that Jesus is in the temple. Why change the topography of Jerusalem? Unless there was an opening to heaven still present during the time of the millenium at the level of a high mountain. Jesus in the temple at the top of a rasied up mountain of the Lord, would literally stand between heaven and earth, no one would have access to heaven without going through Jesus (I am the way, no man comes to the Father but by me).

[1whowaits]

As Jesus can be in heaven while being seen in the clouds, or just outside the opening to heaven, the elect who are gathered to Him can be gathered to Heaven. During this time the great multitude that comes out of the GT scene could occur as described in Rev 7. Also the wedding supper of the Lamb as described in Rev 19 could take place, prior to Jesus' return at armageddon, when heaven stands open.

So when we meet Jesus 'in the clouds', we could actually be meeting Jesus at the opening to heaven, stepping into heaven and remain with Him until He descends to the earth at armageddon.

The fall feasts could mark the timing of events, as Jesus fulfilled the first 4 appointed feasts at His first coming, He will likely fulfill the last 3 feasts at His second coming. The Feast of Trumpets occurs at the sighting of the new moon, which at the time of Jesus' return will be darkened, so the timing cannot be known to anyone but the Father beforehand, it is the day that no one knows (beforehand).

Ten days after the Feast of Trumpets falls the Day of Atonement, or judgement day for the nation of Israel. The 10 days between these events is the time of Israel's turning to God, the time of Israel's repentance as individuals and as a nation. Which is described of Israel in Zech 12 and 13. Jerusalem is surrounded by the armies of 'all nations' preparing for armageddon. Israel looks on the One who was pierced, Jesus, and Israel mourns by clans and repents. And God forgives their sin and cleanses them, and in this context the 'faithful remnant' is described, the 1/3 remnant who survives who calls upon the name of the Lord (blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord - Matt 23). And Jesus returns and sets foot on the mount and rescues Israel, who are still present on the earth, and who escape through the valley (Zech 14).

The purpose of the delay would then be for the nations, including Israel, to mourn, Israel to repent, the armies to finish gathering for armageddon, the elect to be gathered to Jesus as He comes in the clouds- inside or outside of the opening to heaven revealed by the sky being rolled back, in preparation for the wedding feast of the Lamb, prior to Jesus coming down to earth at armageddon.

[1whowaits]

Mr B, while there is only one God, God presents Himself as 3 separate personalities, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, aka the Trinity. Through eternity future we will not see only 1 personality as you state, Rev 21 clearly indicates that there will be at least 2 personalities visible to us, the Father and the Son, "I did not see a temple in the city because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.'

The Father and the Son are One God, but they choose to present themselves as separate personalities of the Trinity. Presumably the Holy Spirit is present during eternity as part of the Trinity, and is referred to at the end of Rev - 'The Spirit and the bride say, Come!'

[Mr Baldy]

Hi 1whowaits,

Just want to comment on a few things you wrote - and address the later at a different time, as I have to prepare for work.

You wrote:

Mr B, Jesus being seen 'in the clouds' does not necessarily mean Jesus has left heaven if the opening to heaven is in the clouds. Heaven is a parallel plane of existence and need not be light years away, it could be next door, or a few thousand feet above the earth. Rev 6 describes the sky being rolled back like a scroll and men calling to be hidden from the presence or face of God and the Lamb, the implication being that they can see the One they wish to be hidden from whom they realize can now see them.

1whowaits, If the sky is rolled back like a scroll means that the clouds are too. You mention that Heaven is a parallel plane of existence - which I agree, but you must remember that Paul said that he was "caught up to the 3rd Heaven"; that certainly could imply that it is some distance away. As far as the rest of your statement, you should full know that no man can see God in His Full Glory and live. There has been only one exception to this that I've found in Scripture, and it is when He comes to Judge the Nations of the World.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B, while there is only one God, God presents Himself as 3 separate personalities, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, aka the Trinity. Through eternity future we will not see only 1 personality as you state, Rev 21 clearly indicates that there will be at least 2 personalities visible to us, the Father and the Son, "I did not see a temple in the city because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.'

I take notice that you said "personalities" here.......and not Persons. I NEVER mentioned 'personalities' - what I did say is JESUS. That is the ONLY GOD you will ever see - make no mistake about this.

If you believe that when you arrive to Heaven that Jesus will grab you by the hand, and say let me now take you to see God the Father - then you have a huge theological error. Scripture is very CLEAR that the Fullness of the Deity is in Jesus Bodily form. Also, Jesus very clearly and very plainly explained to Philip that when one has seen Him he has also seen the Father.

Here are some Scriptures to back up what I am saying:

Colossians 2:8-9 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8) See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

It doesn't get any clearer than that.


Also:

John 14:8-9 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8) Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9) Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

In closing, there are many other passages of Scripture that clearly show that JESUS IS GOD - and the ONLY God we will ever see.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I completely disagree Mr Baldy, but you and I have been down that path before so hesitate to engage in that debate just to rehash what has already been said, however I do take issue with this statement:

Actually, a good healthy disagreement is good for the soul.

Certainly the 12 apostles were unique in history as they were the only ones hand picked by Christ to be in His inner circle. But to say that they were created in a similar manner as angels or the archangel Micheal is a big stretch imo.

Look, let's not misrepresent what I very CLEARLY stated. I NEVER said that the 12 Apostles were "created in a similar manner as angels". So before you allow your temper to flare up - take a step back and carefully read what has been written. AGAIN, this is what I wrote:

There will NEVER be any other men created like the 12 Apostles were. They were created for a divine purpose, somewhat like the Angels when they were created. The Archangel Michael is an example.

I said that they were created for a "divine purpose" - in other words like the Angels or even Michael the Archangel. They have a "divine purpose" not that they were created the same. The 12 had a very specific purpose, for a divine reason and they were given special gifts - like to raise the dead; healing; and to prophesize. The gifts they possessed are no longer used by modern day men - if so why can't men do these gifts today? Angels were created for a specific purpose as well, like carrying out messages - and in comparison to Michael, who was also created for a divine purpose, none of them have his duty which only he alone can perform.

So sit back, take a deep breath and RELAX.

I misunderstood what you were trying to say Mr. Baldy, and to me it wasn't VERY clear, but thank you for clarifying it for me here. And for the record my temper did not flare up, I happen to be a very even tempered person, it takes a lot for my temper to flare up and at no time while reading your post did it. So carry on....

If I was any more relaxed I would be sleeping

RT

[Mr Baldy]

I misunderstood what you were trying to say Mr. Baldy, and to me it wasn't VERY clear, but thank you for clarifying it for me here. And for the record my temper did not flare up, I happen to be a very even tempered person, it takes a lot for my temper to flare up and at no time while reading your post did it.

So carry on....If I was any more relaxed I would be sleeping

RT

Ha ha ha ha - hey RT, it's all good!

Perhaps I could have explained what I meant much better.........

What I will "attempt" to do as this Thread progresses, is explain the erroneous teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture - which I know that you are a proponent of .

And I would like to also provide evidence that there "may not" even be a literal Millennial Kingdom.

More and more I am beginning to believe that when Jesus Comes - it will be the End of the World, and His Eternal Kingdom will be established at that point.

[mark s]

Hmmm . . . anti-pre-trib-rapture and amillennial. Should be interesting.



I would seriously challenge to have a discussion lacking in both unsupported suppositions and logical fallacies.

Much love,
Mark

[shorttribber]

[Mr Baldy]

I would seriously challenge to have a discussion lacking in both unsupported suppositions and logical fallacies.

Seems to me that a predetermined judgment has already been made before any evidence has been submitted or put up to be challenged or debated. Hence, you won't be challenging anything with me.

I will graciously bow out of this discussion and leave it to those who are "Subject Matter Experts" on everything and anything there is to know about Scripture.

Much love,

Baldy

[mark s]

Hi Mr Baldy,

I'm not trying to put the kabbash to the discussion. I'd like to see it be productive, that's all.

But as you wish.

Much love,
Mark

[mark s]

I would seriously challenge to have a discussion lacking in both unsupported suppositions and logical fallacies.

Seems to me that a predetermined judgment has already been made before any evidence has been submitted or put up to be challenged or debated. Hence, you won't be challenging anything with me.

I will graciously bow out of this discussion and leave it to those who are "Subject Matter Experts" on everything and anything there is to know about Scripture.

Much love,

Baldy

BTW . . .

In just the above, you've asserted that, apparently me, or someone, as having made predetermined judgments, and that you won't participate with them.

This really has nothing to do with the discussion, and is a pejorative. I've simply asked for a logical discussion with supported suppositions.

Then there is your next short paragraph, with it's comment about "those who are "Subject Matter Experts" on everything and anything there is to know about Scripture."

If that was in reference to me, while I feel humbled that you would think of me that way, I don't think that's true by any stretch, I most certainly don't know everything and anything there is to know about Scripture. But thank you anyway!

Unless, that is, you were simply being sarcastic. In which case, my response would be different. It then becomes, again, pejorative. In the terms of debate, Ad Hominem. That's when someone doesn't have an actual argument, so they take a swipe at the person instead.

Much love,
Mark

[mark s]

:snack:

Hi St,

. . . and included you are!!

[shorttribber]

Hi St,

. . . and included you are!!

[Mr Baldy]

More and more I am beginning to believe that when Jesus Comes - it will be the End of the World, and His Eternal Kingdom will be established at that point.

I'd like to continue this topic - in order to have some logical, sound debate based on Scripture if there are no objections?

There is so much misinformation out there that is truly deceiving people, that a topic such as this "may" truly edify the Body of Christ.

[keithareilly]

Go Ahead.

Many read who do not reply.

Keith

[Mr Baldy]

Go Ahead.

Thanks Keith!

I want to first start by saying that I try very hard not to be dogmatic about my End Time Views - and I reserve the right to change them as I become more educated by Scripture, and those who have been blessed with the gift of interpretation from the Holy Spirit.

To begin with Here is Matthew 24:3 - which I believe is a good starting point:

Matthew 24:3 - King James Version (KJV)

3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be The sign of Thy Coming, and of the END OF THE WORLD?

I'm strapped for time right now - but I want to point out that I have used the King James Version to illustrate a point. Other Versions, or Translations mention "His Coming and the End of the Age" - verses the sign of His Coming and the End of the World.

Point is that the "End of the World" and "His Coming" are synonymous in that it occurs at the SAME TIME.

More later................

[Exit40]

Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world ( g165 ) ? KJV

The KJV translates Strong's G165 in the following manner: ever (71x), world (38x), never (with G3364) (with G1519) (with G3588) (6x), evermore (4x), age (2x), eternal (2x), miscellaneous (5x).

for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)

αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'; from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

God Bless

David

[Ready1]

I see three questions in this passage.

Tell us when shall these things be?
What shall be the sign of thy coming?
What shall be the sign of the end of the world?

[Mr Baldy]

Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world ( g165 ) ? KJV

The KJV translates Strong's G165 in the following manner: ever (71x), world (38x), never (with G3364) (with G1519) (with G3588) (6x), evermore (4x), age (2x), eternal (2x), miscellaneous (5x).

for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)

αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'; from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.

God Bless

David

Thanks for this break down David. Unless I am interpreting what you have presented wrong, then in this explanation it mentions "an age by extension" AND: "an Messianic period or age without end, or eternal". This information appears to be validating a point that I am trying to make - in that when Jesus Appears - then that's IT!

Meaning it could be very possible that there is NO MILLENNIAL KINGDOM. Again, I am not dogmatic on this idea, but attempting to gather evidence to support what "may be" a proper interpretation of Scripture.

[Mr Baldy]

I see three questions in this passage.

Tell us when shall these things be?
What shall be the sign of thy coming?
What shall be the sign of the end of the world?

Yes Ready1 you are correct.....

However, some - to include myself, believe that when Jesus answered the 1st of the three questions that you gathered, the answer to that particular question was actually a prophetic event that was fulfilled in 70 AD.

The other two still remain. 1) The Sing of His Coming - and 2) The End of the World, still remain to be fulfilled.

[mark s]

Matthew 24:3 - King James Version (KJV)

3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be The sign of Thy Coming, and of the END OF THE WORLD?

I'm strapped for time right now - but I want to point out that I have used the King James Version to illustrate a point. Other Versions, or Translations mention "His Coming and the End of the Age" - verses the sign of His Coming and the End of the World.

Point is that the "End of the World" and "His Coming" are synonymous in that it occurs at the SAME TIME.

More later................

Hi Mr Baldy,

One thing I'd like to mention, the word used where the KJV says "end of the world", is aionos, translated eon or age. It's a matter of a time period.

Kosmo is normally the word used for "world", and refers to the kingdoms and institutions of man upon the earth within a context such as this, were it actually used here, and can refer to the earth itself, if memory serves. Nonetheless, aionos is purely a time word.

So when they asked, "and the end of the age", they were asking about the end of this age, and the beginning of the next one.

Much love,
Mark

[Mr Baldy]

Now.........

Arguably, One of the Biggest Debates in Bible Prophecy is the issue with understanding the difference between Two Judgments as they relate to the End of the World mentioned in Scripture - Which are:

1) The Judgement of the Nations - (Matthew 25:31-46)

AND

2) The Great White Throne Judgment - (Revelation 20:11-15)

The question of these two Judgements is - Are they One and the Same Judgment?

If there can be no reconciliation of these two Judgments - then it is very possible that there is indeed a Millennial Kingdom. If there can be reconciliation, and it becomes apparent that they are indeed the same Judgment - then when Jesus Appears - His Coming will usher in His Eternal Kingdom. That would mean that there is NO literal Millennial Reign, or temporal Kingdom designated for a period of 1,000 years.

Here are the passages of Scripture for comparison purposes:

Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man Comes in His Glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

AND:

Revelation 20:11-15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judgment at the Throne of God

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

There ""appears to be" distinctions between these two aforementioned Judgments. But could there still be a possibility that they are One and the Same Judgment?

[mark s]

Survivors from the great tribulation in the first case, the dead in the second case. No question, different judgments, IMO.

Much love,
Mark

[1whowaits]

IMO, the same judgement is being described, the Great White Throne Judgement. In Matt 25 the righteous receive the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world, the millennial kingdom is an earthly kingdom ruling the nations on the earth, the kingdom prepared would be the eternal kingdom in the New Jerusalem, which is not received until the GWTJ.

The unrighteous are sent into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, aka the 'lake of fire', which Satan is cast into at the end of the millennium around the time of the GWTJ. While the AC and FP are cast alive into the lake of fire after armageddon, no one else is described as being cast there until the time of the GWTJ. In fact the unrighteous are described as being in Hades, the holding place, which is emptied at the GWTJ and itself cast into the lake of fire.

Both the righteous and the unrighteous receive their eternal reward(new heaven and earth, New Jerusalem) and punishment (the eternal lake of fire) around the time of the GWTJ, not at the beginning of the millenium, but at the end of the millennium, which is what Jesus is describing in Matt 25.

Scripture can describe 2 events which are separated by lengths of time as if they occurred on the same day. Joel 3 and Zech 14 intermingle the events of armageddon and the millennium as if they occurred on the same day. Peter in 2 Peter 3, after describing 1,000 years as being like a day with the Lord, associates the Day of the Lord coming like a thief, a reference to Matt 24 and Jesus' return at the beginning of the millennium, with the new heavens and earth, which occurs at the end of the millennium, together as if the occur on the same day, the DOTL, which lasts for 1,000 years.

IMO, this is what Jesus is doing in Matt 24- 25, describing His return in the clouds at armageddon in Matt 24, and ending with His description of the GWTJ, in Matt 25, 1,000 years later.

[GodsStudent]

Survivors from the great tribulation in the first case, the dead in the second case. No question, different judgments, IMO.

Much love,
Mark

I agree.

[Mr Baldy]

IMO, this is what Jesus is doing in Matt 24- 25, describing His return in the clouds at armageddon in Matt 24, and ending with His description of the GWTJ, in Matt 25, 1,000 years later.

Hi 1whowaits,

I see where you have tied these two Judgments in - but you have a slight problem with your analogy.

Here is what Matthew 24:31 says at the beginning of this Judgment:

Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

Based on what you have presented - which by the way would make perfect sense, in that IF it was a very literal 1,000 year period equated as a single day - However if you notice the aforementioned beginning of this Judgment...... It describes the Judgment occurring AT His Coming. So therefore, base on what you have mentioned, it cannot be a "CONTINIOUS" Coming that lasts for 1,000 years - but occurring simultaneously at the time of His Arrival - or shortly thereafter.

There are also additional indicators mentioned in Revelation 20 that would "appear" to make this Judgment very different from the GWTJ.

Like:

1) The Book of Life being opened
2) The Fact that at the GWTJ - only the Dead are mentioned
3) And at this Judgment the presence of Earth and Heaven will have fled away

So, there are some very apparent differences. Then the Question becomes: Is that which is written in Revelation 20 symbolic - or is it literal?

[Jay Ross]

In Matthew 25:31-46 when it states that all the nations will be gather before Him (Matt 25:32), "all of the nations" indicates that they will be both past and present nations.

In Revelation 20:15: - "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." the word "anyone" includes both those who were dead and have now been resurrected just before the GWTR time of judgement and those who are still alive at this same time. Revelation 20:11-15 is not specifically only referencing the dead. It includes both those that had died and those still living in this judgement time.

Shalom

[1whowaits]

Mr B, in Matt 25 Jesus is described as coming with His angels and sitting on His glorious throne, which 'coming' is being described? Many make the assumption Jesus is coming at armageddon but that need not be the case.

When Jesus returns at armageddon, there is no evidence that any throne exists. Jesus will sit on the throne of His Father David, but that throne does not exist and there is no evidence that it will exist again until after Jesus' return, the throne will have to be reconstructed some time after Jesus returns at armageddon. Will the earthly throne of David qualify as a 'glorious' throne? Is there a more glorious throne?

In Rev 20, at the GWTJ, the earth and sky flee from His presence, and then in Rev 21 a new heaven and earth are described as the first heaven and earth have passed away. The 'fleeing' of the heaven and earth would then be what Peter describes in 2 Peter 3, the heaven and earth are burned with fire and the elements melt, the earth and heaven are destroyed, and then a new heaven and earth are seen, they are remade.

If the earth and heavens are destroyed and remade at this time, where would the GWTJ take place? The only remaining place for the GWTJ to take place is the spiritual realm, the place of God's throne. As Jesus rules the nations with an iron scepter (Rev 2) on the earth from Jerusalem (Isa 2, Zech14) for 1,000 years (Rev 20), when He sits on the Great White Throne in heaven, He will have to return or 'come' to heaven to sit on His much more glorious throne.

So at the GWTJ Jesus would come to heaven from the earth after reigning 1,000 years, likely escorted by the angels as the King should be, to the Great White Throne, where He renders the final judgement.

IMO, considering that Matt 25 references the inheritance of the righteous, the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world (the New Jerusalem), the unrighteous being cast into the eternal fire prepared for the devil( the lake of fire), Jesus coming to His glorious throne, Matt 25 is describing the end of the 1,000 years, the time of the GWTJ (and reward).

[1whowaits]

When Jesus is seated on the Great White Throne, the 'event' is not just a judgement, it is more than that-'I saw a new heaven and a new earth...I saw the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven...the dwelling of God is with men...He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away..he who overcomes will inherit all this...', the inheritance of the righteous is received, at the time when Jesus is still on the Great White Throne..' He who is seated on the throne said, 'I am making everything new...I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end..' Rev 21.

At the time that Jesus is seated on the Great White Throne the unrighteous are judged and sent to the Lake of Fire (Rev 20), but also the righteous receive their eternal inheritance (Rev 21), all are present during this time, 'all nations' are present as Jay points out. IMO, the description of Rev 20 and 21 of the time after the 1,000 years, the time of the Great White Throne and the One who is seated upon it, is consistent with Jesus' description of Himself in Matt 25.

[Mr Baldy]

In Matthew 25:31-46 when it states that all the nations will be gather before Him (Matt 25:32), "all of the nations" indicates that they will be both past and present nations.

You seem to be missing something here, and it's called "Resurrection". Scripture has provided us that the Believers in Christ will have been "Caught up in the air" to meet Him in the clouds prior to His feet touching on the Mt of Olives. Problem you have here is that you don't mention the "Resurrection" of the wicked in this gathering from the "past". Would they not be dead?

In Revelation 20:15: - "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." the word "anyone" includes both those who were dead and have now been resurrected just before the GWTR time of judgement and those who are still alive at this same time. Revelation 20:11-15 is not specifically only referencing the dead. It includes both those that had died and those still living in this judgement time.

Let take your aforementioned "interpretation" and put it to the test of what is written in Scripture.

Again - this is what Revelation 20:11-15 states:

Revelation 20:11-15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judgment at the Throne of God

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne[/size], and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the DEAD were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the DEAD which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the DEAD which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now Jay Ross...........as you should be able to plainly see, Revelation 20:11-15 clearly mentions the DEAD ONLY.

As not to confuse anyone who may be reading this, this Judgment is the Great White Throne Judgment. It specifically mentions the DEAD only - and we already know that the Righteous or Believers in Christ have been previously Resurrected at His Coming.

In order to see how the Great White Throne Judgment compares to the Judgment of the Nations, we will have to look a little closer at the details that are mentioned in Scripture. However, a question remains about those who are alive at His Coming and appear to have not been Raptured - but are considered "Sheep". Are they allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies?

So, far there appears to be differences that are not reconcilable when comparing these two Judgments.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B, in Matt 25 Jesus is described as coming with His angels and sitting on His glorious throne, which 'coming' is being described? Many make the assumption Jesus is coming at armageddon but that need not be the case.

1whowaits......with much respect, Just how MANY Comings do you have Jesus performing?

When Jesus returns at armageddon, there is no evidence that any throne exists. Jesus will sit on the throne of His Father David, but that throne does not exist and there is no evidence that it will exist again until after Jesus' return, the throne will have to be reconstructed some time after Jesus returns at armageddon. Will the earthly throne of David qualify as a 'glorious' throne? Is there a more glorious throne?

There appears to be "double-talk" in your aforementioned argument 1whowaits. First you are describing Jesus "returning" at Armageddon, and "no Throne exist". But then you say that It "will exist again after His Return.

You go on to say that "the Throne will have to be reconstructed" sometime after Jesus Returns at Armageddon. Well, 1whowaits, if you can show those of us who are doing this particular study ANY EVIDENCE where Scripture EVER describes Jesus's Throne as being "reconstructed", then I would most certainly like to see it.

Now you have mentioned this:

If the earth and heavens are destroyed and remade at this time, where would the GWTJ take place? The only remaining place for the GWTJ to take place is the spiritual realm, the place of God's throne. As Jesus rules the nations with an iron scepter (Rev 2) on the earth from Jerusalem (Isa 2, Zech14) for 1,000 years (Rev 20), when He sits on the Great White Throne in heaven, He will have to return or 'come' to heaven to sit on His much more glorious throne.

Hummmmmmmm

Did you not previously mention that the Judgment at the GWT and the Judgment of the Nations are one and the same?

Let me remind you - as this is what you wrote:

IMO, the same judgement is being described, the Great White Throne Judgement.

You go on to mention this:

In Matt 25 the righteous receive the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world, the millennial kingdom is an earthly kingdom ruling the nations on the earth, the kingdom prepared would be the eternal kingdom in the New Jerusalem, which is not received until the GWTJ.

So let me ask you this 1whowaits.......if these two Judgments are one and the same, why have you mentioned that there is an "earthly Throne" that has to be "reconstructed" and the GWT - which is a "more glorious Throne" and is in the Spiritual Realm?

I'm getting a little confused here

[Mr Baldy]

At the time that Jesus is seated on the Great White Throne the unrighteous are judged and sent to the Lake of Fire (Rev 20), but also the righteous receive their eternal inheritance (Rev 21), all are present during this time, 'all nations' are present as Jay points out. IMO, the description of Rev 20 and 21 of the time after the 1,000 years, the time of the Great White Throne and the One who is seated upon it, is consistent with Jesus' description of Himself in Matt 25.

1whowaits, you and Jay Ross have some very fundamental problems of reconciling the Judgment of the Nations and the Great White Throne Judgment as being one and the same.

In my previous post, I have mentioned some very obvious point of interest that you have made that are not supported by Scripture, as it relates to these two Judgments.

First of all one big HUGE difference is that you both have seemed to have left out is the event of the RESSURECTION.

Base on what you both have written thus far you both seem to want to "place extra" events in Revelation 20 that are NOT there. You both have the Righteous and the Unrighteous standing at the GWTJ - when there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that this is any form of Judgement for the Righteous - whether it be for rewards, or otherwise.

Again, Revelation 20 - which mentions the GWTJ is for the Wicked Dead ONLY.

"IF" there is an Millennial Kingdom, then there will be children who are born that WILL have to come to Christ as Lord and Savior. There will be those who DIE during this 1,000 year time period - and a Resurrection will be necessary. "If this is indeed True" - and at this juncture, I'm not so sure that there will be a 1,000 year period or Millennial Reign of Christ.

So, here is yet another problem that you have with your theory. "If" there is a Millennial Kingdom, and those who have entered the Kingdom in mortal bodies as Righteous have offspring - which if this theory is correct; then they will have children. Those children will be required to Worship Christ, and come to Him as Lord and Savior. Well, will most of the offspring come to Christ? Will ALL rebel against Him? You must answer this question........

These children, and even their Righteous Parents who have been allowed to enter this Millennial Kingdom will at some point have to have Resurrected Bodies. The problem with your theory is that you have NO Resurrection for them. According to Scripture - ONLY the term 1st Resurrection is mentioned. And "Blessed are those who has part in the First Resurrection". The term 2nd Resurrection is NEVER mentioned in Scripture - however it may be "implied" as it relates to the 2nd Death.

Here is Scripture:

Revelation 20:4-6 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4) Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

In closing, in order for you reconcile these two Judgments together - then you must include how the Resurrections occur. You must also determine whether or not Revelation 20 is literal or symbolic. Even if Matthew 25:31-46 is a "parable" that describes Revelation 20 - (and very frankly it very well could be) then the "meat must be separated from the bone" in order to figure this out. At this juncture, the only way that these two Judgments could even be close is that there would have to be NO Millennial Kingdom - and it ALL Ends AT HIS COMING.

[Jay Ross]

In Matthew 25:31-46 when it states that all the nations will be gather before Him (Matt 25:32), "all of the nations" indicates that they will be both past and present nations.

You seem to be missing something here, and it's called "Resurrection". Scripture has provided us that the Believers in Christ will have been "Caught up in the air" to meet Him in the clouds prior to His feet touching on the Mt of Olives. Problem you have here is that you don't mention the "Resurrection" of the wicked in this gathering from the "past". Would they not be dead?

Mr. Baldy, you are missing the point of what I wrote. By stating that both the present and the past nations will be present, at the time of the final judgement, I have indicated that the people that make up the past nations will also be resurrected. As Daniel 12 state, that those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and contempt.

In Revelation 20:15: - "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire." the word "anyone" includes both those who were dead and have now been resurrected just before the GWTR time of judgement and those who are still alive at this same time. Revelation 20:11-15 is not specifically only referencing the dead. It includes both those that had died and those still living in this judgement time.

Let take your aforementioned "interpretation" and put it to the test of what is written in Scripture.

Again - this is what Revelation 20:11-15 states:

Revelation 20:11-15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Judgment at the Throne of God

11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12) And I saw the DEAD, the great and the small, standing before the throne[/size], and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the DEAD were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13) And the sea gave up the DEAD which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the DEAD which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now Jay Ross...........as you should be able to plainly see, Revelation 20:11-15 clearly mentions the DEAD ONLY.

As not to confuse anyone who may be reading this, this Judgment is the Great White Throne Judgment. It specifically mentions the DEAD only - and we already know that the Righteous or Believers in Christ have been previously Resurrected at His Coming.

In order to see how the Great White Throne Judgment compares to the Judgment of the Nations, we will have to look a little closer at the details that are mentioned in Scripture. However, a question remains about those who are alive at His Coming and appear to have not been Raptured - but are considered "Sheep". Are they allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies?

So, far there appears to be differences that are not reconcilable when comparing these two Judgments.

Again, the above is your interpretation of the scriptures, where you have Christ's second coming occurring at the very beginning of the Millennium Age and the Judgement of the nations, Matthew 25:31-46 occurring at this same time.

My understanding of the scriptures is that Christ's "Second" coming in all of His Glory can only happen at the end of the Millennium Age.

My understanding of the Ezekiel 47:1-12 timeline would indicate that 4,000 years must pass {from} the time of the dedication of Solomon's temple until the healing of the earth can begin. The healing of the earth can only begin after the final judgement. The last 1,000 years is the time of the Great season of harvest of the righteous souls that have bowed their knees unto the Lord.

In Ezekiel 34:17, there are two separation of the people that are mentioned and the separation of the people into two flocks is the first judgement that is undertaken. The wicked who do not acknowledge God are dispatched into the lake of Fire. The second separation of the flock that acknowledges God then takes place and the flock is separated out into the sheep and the goats, and the goats are dispatched also into the lake of Fire while the sheep enter in to receive their inheritance.

Mr Baldy, you are welcome to hold onto your understanding of scripture, but since you state the following in your OP, "Now, I must say that I sincerely question those modern day so called Prophets that pretend they have it all right. Well, truth of the matter is NO ONE does. And we won't actually know the full Truth until Prophecy has been Fulfilled."

Perhaps, we all fall into this category, time will tell, but my sense that I will not be around when it happens as I will have returned to dust to await the the time of the second resurrection.

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

In closing, in order for you reconcile these two Judgments together - then you must include how the Resurrections occur. You must also determine whether or not Revelation 20 is literal or symbolic. Even if Matthew 25:31-46 is a "parable" that describes Revelation 20 - (and very frankly it very well could be) then the "meat must be separated from the bone" in order to figure this out. At this juncture, the only way that these two Judgments could even be close is that there would have to be NO Millennial Kingdom - and it ALL Ends AT HIS COMING.

Mr Baldy, the kings of the nations mentioned in Daniel 2 when God establishes His everlasting Kingdom, which will never pass away, are all present today. The timing of the judgement of the kings of the earth, on the earth will happen in our near future, and at this time, God will establish the everlasting kingdom. Revelation 20 tells us that Christ will rule as a Priest for 1,000 years with the saints of the first resurrection in Heaven and his influence over the people of the earth will be seen in the Great harvest that will occur during this time.

[1whowaits]

Mr B, the 1,000 year reign of Jesus following His return at armageddon is a literal event on the earth. Other scriptures confirm an earthly reign of Christ after armageddon, Zech 14 describes armageddon and then Jesus reigning from Jerusalem as King with the nations that survive armageddon going up to worship Him as King. If they do not go up to worship Jesus they are punished, they receive no rain but will receive a plague, they experience the 'iron' part of 'He will rule them with an iron scepter' Rev 2.

Isa 2 also describes all nations going to the temple on the temple mount from which the law goes out and He (Jesus) will judge between the nations and settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares..), a reference to the millennial reign of Christ.

Jesus will reign from the Temple and from a throne on earth as Zech 6 describes- 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from this place and build the temple of the Lord, and He will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on His throne. And He will be a priest on His throne. And there will be harmony between the two'.

Jesus will reign on a throne on the earth during the 1,000 years in the rebuilt temple of God. Jesus will rule on David's throne- 'The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David' Luke 1. David's throne is a position of kingship but also a literal throne that the king of Israel reign's from. The throne of the king's of Israel no longer exists as also the position of king over Israel is no longer observed by Israel.

So as Jesus will rebuild the temple that He reigns from (that is destroyed), so also the earthly throne that He reigns from during the 1,000 years, the earthly throne of king David (that no longer exists), will have to be rebuilt and the position of King re-instituted (Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and our holy city.....to bring in everlasting righteousness....and to anoint the Most Holy- Dan 9).

The 'glorious throne' that Jesus comes to in Matt 25 would then be the Great White Throne in heaven, imo.

[1whowaits]

Mr B, there will be 2 resurrections, the first and the second, as described in Rev 20. The first resurrection is of the righteous, those who reign with Christ for 1,000 years, which would be all who believe- 'To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations- 'He will rule them with an iron scepter, he will dash them to pieces like pottery'- just as I have received authority from my Father' Rev 2

Scripture indicates that when Jesus comes in the clouds and the dead and living in Christ rise to meet Him, they will be with the Lord forever- 'the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so will we be with the Lord forever' 1 Thess 4

Also John 14- I go to prepare a place for you....I will come back and take you to be with me that you may also be where I am.'

When the righteous are resurrected, when the righteous meet the Lord in the air, they will from then on be with Him. When Jesus rules the nations on the earth for 1,000 years, the righteous will be there with Him reigning, as Rev 2 states.

Rev 20 describes those included in the first resurrection, those who come out of the GT, who were beheaded. But there is another group who is present who reign with Christ- 'I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge..', who would be the rest of the righteous, those who have overcome, those who are with Christ forever, those who have received authority from Christ.

The second resurrection involves mainly the unrighteous, as there is a first resurrection, the following resurrecion would be called the second. The sea giving up the dead and Hades giving up the dead would imply a resurrection has taken place.

It is not clear what happens to those who believe after the first resurrection, those who come to Jesus during the millenium. They may be part of the second resurrection, scripture does not say. But only the unrighteous suffer the second death, at the GWTJ. The second resurrection precedes the GWTJ, it is the preparation for the GWTJ, but it is not the punishment of the GWTJ. The second death, the eternal death in the lake of fire, is the punishment of the GWTJ that only the unrighteous suffer. Any righteous that would be raised at the 2nd resurrection would not suffer the 2nd death.

[1whowaits]

Mr B, as far as the number of comings of Jesus, it would depend on where Jesus is coming to. 'Coming' means a change of location, moving from once location and arriving at another. Jesus' first coming to earth was from heaven, and He returned to heaven 33 years later, Jesus came to earth and then later returned or 'came' or changed location, to heaven.

Jesus will come to earth again at armageddon and then return to heaven 1,000 years later, after He reigns on earth for 1,000 years. Jesus will come to earth again, stay for a period of time, and then return, or come, or change location, to heaven. The use of 'come' depends on location and perspective, Jesus can be coming to earth or coming to heaven, depending on the perspective of the narrator.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. Baldy, you are missing the point of what I wrote. By stating that both the present and the past nations will be present, at the time of the final judgement, I have indicated that the people that make up the past nations will also be resurrected. As Daniel 12 state, that those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and contempt.

Jay Ross, I most certainly am not missing your point. If you have something to comment on, certainly you should mention it, and not leave it for those of us who are studying this matter to decipher what you are trying to convey. You NEVER mentioned the fact that those "who make up the past nations will be resurrected". Had that been so, I would not have mention that you left it out.

Now as far as your comment on Daniel 12 - there is absolutely NOTHING that mentions that this "awakening" for those who will awake to everlasting life and come to everlasting shame and contempt has to happen at THE EXACT SAME TIME.

Again, the above is your interpretation of the scriptures, where you have Christ's second coming occurring at the very beginning of the Millennium Age and the Judgement of the nations, Matthew 25:31-46 occurring at this same time.

Absolutely Jay Ross - as His Coming is at the "beginning of the Millennium Age and the Judgment of the Nations" if there is such thing as a "Millennium Age". A Millennial Age Kingdom has yet to be proven to me, without unequivocal doubt.

My understanding of the scriptures is that Christ's "Second" coming in all of His Glory can only happen at the end of the Millennium Age.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY Disagree. What Millennium Age would you be referring to if there is No Christ to Rule?

Mr Baldy, you are welcome to hold onto your understanding of scripture, but since you state the following in your OP, "Now, I must say that I sincerely question those modern day so called Prophets that pretend they have it all right. Well, truth of the matter is NO ONE does. And we won't actually know the full Truth until Prophecy has been Fulfilled."

I stand by this statement.

Perhaps, we all fall into this category, time will tell, but my sense that I will not be around when it happens as I will have returned to dust to await the the time of the second resurrection.

Jay Ross.........if you are in the "Second Resurrection" - which by the way Scripture NEVER names it this - then my brother in Christ you are at the WRONG Resurrection. If you're not in the 1st Resurrection - then you will stand with the Wicked Dead who have be brought alive to stand Judgment at the GWT. They ALL face the "2nd Death".

So, you may want to review Scripture, and do your homework.

[Mr Baldy]

The timing of the judgement of the kings of the earth, on the earth will happen in our near future, and at this time, God will establish the everlasting kingdom. Revelation 20 tells us that Christ will rule as a Priest for 1,000 years with the saints of the first resurrection in Heaven and his influence over the people of the earth will be seen in the Great harvest that will occur during this time.

Jay Ross, put Scripture where your thoughts are.

Please don't submit your "OPINION" on what you believe to be true. I've read Revelation 20 - and I've seen absolutely NO Evidence whatsoever that Christ will rule with the "saints of the first resurrection In Heaven".

Jay Ross, you seem to imply that Believers will be a part of another Resurrection - other than the First. If you believe this, then this is certainly what is very contrary to what has been written in Scripture - as Scripture is VERY CLEAR about ALL Believers being a part of the "First Resurrection - as the 2nd Death will have no Power over them".

The term "2nd Resurrection or any other Resurrection than the First is NEVER mentioned in Scripture - at least by name.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B, the 1,000 year reign of Jesus following His return at armageddon is a literal event on the earth. Other scriptures confirm an earthly reign of Christ after armageddon, Zech 14 describes armageddon and then Jesus reigning from Jerusalem as King with the nations that survive armageddon going up to worship Him as King. If they do not go up to worship Jesus they are punished, they receive no rain but will receive a plague, they experience the 'iron' part of 'He will rule them with an iron scepter' Rev 2.

I'm currently doing a study on this........more on this later.

Isa 2 also describes all nations going to the temple on the temple mount from which the law goes out and He (Jesus) will judge between the nations and settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares..), a reference to the millennial reign of Christ.

Again, I'm currently doing a study on this. But if you are going to reference a particular passage of Scripture, please provide the Scripture to support your belief or interpretation and not paraphrase or generalize a whole chapter.

Jesus will reign on a throne on the earth during the 1,000 years in the rebuilt temple of God.

Here again you mention "ideas" but you provide no Scripture to support what you are saying. Please prove that there will be a "Rebuilt Temple of God".

So as Jesus will rebuild the temple that He reigns from (that is destroyed), so also the earthly throne that He reigns from during the 1,000 years, the earthly throne of king David (that no longer exists), will have to be rebuilt and the position of King re-instituted (Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and our holy city.....to bring in everlasting righteousness....and to anoint the Most Holy- Dan 9).

Scripture Please?????? I get Daniel 9- but where is the other Scripture to support your theory

The 'glorious throne' that Jesus comes to in Matt 25 would then be the Great White Throne in heaven, imo.

1whowaits - I respectfully WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with your aforementioned statement here. Matthew 25:31-46 is very, very specific about Jesus Coming in His Glory with ALL the Angels. There is NO way He is Returning to Heaven with the Angels as you are suggesting here. The absolute ONLY place He could be Coming to is EARTH - and that to Judge the Nations.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr B, there will be 2 resurrections, the first and the second, as described in Rev 20.

Actually 1whowaits - there will be Multiple Resurrections for the Righteous prior to the GWTJ.

However, it should be noted that they are considered as the "First Resurrection".

Here are the Order of Resurrections:

1) At the Rapture
2) The Martyrs who die during the Tribulation Period and Come Alive at the 1,000 year Reign
3) The Two Witnesses who are "Caught Up into Heaven" prior to the end of the Great Tribulation
4) The Resurrection of those who become saved during the Millennial Kingdom
5) Those who die during the Millennial Kingdom and have accepted Christ as Savior

**Now - let me mention that ALL of the aforementioned Resurrections are either given or implied in Scripture - but ALL have to occur before the GWTJ. ALL of these Resurrections, are considered the "First Resurrection" as they occur PRIOR to the GWTJ and BEFORE Judgment is given to the WICKED DEAD at the GWTJ.

The purpose of the GWTJ is to judge the WICKED DEAD ONLY. The Lake of Fire is called the 2ND DEATH.

Scripture NEVER mentions a so-called 2nd Resurrection.

[Mr Baldy]

Ok 1whowaits........here are some points we agree on:

The first resurrection is of the righteous

I agree

Scripture indicates that when Jesus comes in the clouds and the dead and living in Christ rise to meet Him, they will be with the Lord forever- 'the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so will we be with the Lord forever' 1 Thess 4

I agree

When the righteous are resurrected, when the righteous meet the Lord in the air, they will from then on be with Him. When Jesus rules the nations on the earth for 1,000 years, the righteous will be there with Him reigning, as Rev 2 states.

I agree

Rev 20 describes those included in the first resurrection, those who come out of the GT, who were beheaded. But there is another group who is present who reign with Christ- 'I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge..', who would be the rest of the righteous, those who have overcome, those who are with Christ forever, those who have received authority from Christ.

I agree - hence an 'Order of Resurrections" - that are considered as a part of the 1st Resurrection; although occurring at different intervals or times PRIOR to the GWTJ.

The second resurrection involves mainly the unrighteous, as there is a first resurrection, the following resurrecion would be called the second. The sea giving up the dead and Hades giving up the dead would imply a resurrection has taken place.

I AGREE - although the term "second resurrection" is NEVER used in Scripture.

It is not clear what happens to those who believe after the first resurrection, those who come to Jesus during the millenium.

I agree in part. Where I believe that you are making a mistake is ruling out that there is an ORDER OF RESURRECTIONS - yet still considered to be a part of the 1st Resurrection. I say this because "IF" there is indeed a Millennial Kingdom - then those who come to Christ will have to be Resurrected - (dying physically or CHANGED) and given a Spiritual or Immortal Body. Now this includes whether they die prior to the GWTJ or if they remain alive in their mortal body. Point is that it ALL has to occur before He Judges the Wicked Dead at the GWTJ. Again, Scripture NEVER mentions a 2nd Resurrection - but it is very clearly implied.

The second resurrection precedes the GWTJ, it is the preparation for the GWTJ, but it is not the punishment of the GWTJ. The second death, the eternal death in the lake of fire, is the punishment of the GWTJ that only the unrighteous suffer. Any righteous that would be raised at the 2nd resurrection would not suffer the 2nd death.

I will take a deeper look into what you wrote in your aforementioned statement. Because I agree in part. If a very literal Millennial Kingdom can be proven, then perhaps there is a "special resurrection" for those who have died during this time period, and or remain alive until after the 1,000 years have been completed and are still in mortal bodies. The only problem that I have with it now is that Scripture never identifies a 2nd Resurrection - only the 2nd Death.

[Jay Ross]

The timing of the judgement of the kings of the earth, on the earth will happen in our near future, and at this time, God will establish the everlasting kingdom. Revelation 20 tells us that Christ will rule as a Priest for 1,000 years with the saints of the first resurrection in Heaven and his influence over the people of the earth will be seen in the Great harvest that will occur during this time.

Jay Ross, put Scripture where your thoughts are.

Please don't submit your "OPINION" on what you believe to be true. I've read Revelation 20 - and I've seen absolutely NO Evidence whatsoever that Christ will rule with the "saints of the first resurrection In Heaven".

Jay Ross, you seem to imply that Believers will be a part of another Resurrection - other than the First. If you believe this, then this is certainly what is very contrary to what has been written in Scripture - as Scripture is VERY CLEAR about ALL Believers being a part of the "First Resurrection - as the 2nd Death will have no Power over them".

The term "2nd Resurrection or any other Resurrection than the First is NEVER mentioned in Scripture - at least by name.

Mr baldy, if you are going to insist that I have to provide scripture to justify my opinion, then you should also follow your own demand and provide the scriptures that justify your opinion.

Revelation 20:4-6: -

The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
NKJV

Now from the above passage, Mr baldy, unless you lose your head between now and the time of the first resurrection, you too will have to await for the resurrection that the above scripture states will occur 1,000 years later. If it happens 1,000 years after the first resurrection, then it must be the second resurrection in my opinion.

Now if you have read Revelation 20 then it would appear that you missed the above factual statement that it contains.

[Jay Ross]

Mr. Baldy, you are missing the point of what I wrote. By stating that both the present and the past nations will be present, at the time of the final judgement, I have indicated that the people that make up the past nations will also be resurrected. As Daniel 12 state, that those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and contempt.

Jay Ross, I most certainly am not missing your point. If you have something to comment on, certainly you should mention it, and not leave it for those of us who are studying this matter to decipher what you are trying to convey. You NEVER mentioned the fact that those "who make up the past nations will be resurrected". Had that been so, I would not have mention that you left it out.

Now as far as your comment on Daniel 12 - there is absolutely NOTHING that mentions that this "awakening" for those who will awake to everlasting life and come to everlasting shame and contempt has to happen at THE EXACT SAME TIME.

Mr Baldy, please supply scripture to support your expressed opinion in the above quote.

Again, the above is your interpretation of the scriptures, where you have Christ's second coming occurring at the very beginning of the Millennium Age and the Judgement of the nations, Matthew 25:31-46 occurring at this same time.

Absolutely Jay Ross - as His Coming is at the "beginning of the Millennium Age and the Judgment of the Nations" if there is such thing as a "Millennium Age". A Millennial Age Kingdom has yet to be proven to me, without unequivocal doubt.

Mr Baldy, please supply scripture to support your expressed opinion in the above quote.

My understanding of the scriptures is that Christ's "Second" coming in all of His Glory can only happen at the end of the Millennium Age.

I WHOLEHEARTEDLY Disagree. What Millennium Age would you be referring to if there is No Christ to Rule?

Mr Baldy, please supply scripture to support your expressed opinion in the above quote.