Adam's Sin; My Sin

[mark s]

I have 2 questions, I'll let you know what I think, I'd like to know what you think. I'd like to ask for specific yes/no, with whatever Scriptures and reasoning have led to your view.

(1) Did Adam have the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

I believe that yes, he was able to equally choose to sin or not sin, to obey or not obey, and could have acted in either manner. I base this on a couple of lines of reasoning.

One is that he was "created in the image of God", and that God declared all that He had made Good. It simply makes no sense to me to call good that which can only do evil, and that being "in the image of God" would include only being able to do evil. God condemns through Isaiah those who call evil good. This means to me that Adam was at least able to choose good. That he chose evil demonstrated that option also.

God refers to the "first Adam" or "first man", and the "last Adam", or "last man", holding up Adam and Jesus as 2 parts in a set of 2. There's more to be said about that, but I'll hold on for now.

(2) Do we have, as part of who we are being born into humanity, the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

I believe that no, we are not able to equally choose to sin or not sin, to obey or not obey, and we are not, as a matter of our nature through human birth, able to act in obedience to God. It is only in coming to faith that we can begin to obey God. Before we can obey Him, we have to first believe He is. Reference pleasing God, same thing, you have to first believe.

The Bible refers to the unbelievers, the not-born-again as "dead in sins", "slaves to sin", like that. David mentions being conceived in sin, not that his mother was being sinful in how he was conceived, rather, acknowledging that humanity is being born into sin.

All have sinned. No one has escaped the scourge of sin. Is that because God created humans in such a way that they would be unable to avoid sin? No choice? They're going to sin! Sooner or later.

I believe the answer lies in that Adam had the choice of what to do, but he chose to go against God.

Having failed to honor the Author of Life Adam forfeited his life, not physically dying that day, as God had said would happen, but dying just the same, as his spiritual side died.

So I think that Adam was the true innocent, and, having sinned, he became corrupted in nature, and we are all born, just as God had said, like giving birth to like, so we too are born corrupted in nature, destined to sin because we are sinners, rescued by Jesus, the other true innocent.

What do you think?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Interesting topic Mark,

I would agree on both points for the same reasons you state, but I would also add that God does give Adam a choice, to obey or to not obey Him.

Genesis 2:16–17
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Wouldn't it be disingenuous for God to lay out the option if there really wasn't one,

Psalm 92:15
15To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

Job 34:10
10“Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong.

since God is righteous and therefore cannot be disingenuous, then I would say that Adam had a real choice to make, he could obey or he could choose not to.

RT

[Ready1]

Agreed

[keithareilly]

(1)
Genesis 2:16-17
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Adam was destined to eat of the forbidden fruit. Hence 'for in the day' instead of '[ if ] in the day'.
Everyday he did not eat of the fruit is a day he chose to not eat of the fruit.

(2)
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 6:8-10
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, [a]is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Death was master over Christ during His visitation.
Jesus did not obey the one who had mastery over Him during His visitation.
In our fear of Death, the rest of us have obeyed Death; we believers now struggle to work out our salvation and become free; we need no longer fear Death.

[Jericho]

I also agree on both points.

(1) Did Adam have the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

Yes, because If Adam did not have a choice, then there's no such thing as free will and were essentially automatons. If that is the case then we can't be responsible for our actions, which would the negate the need for judgment or hell.

(2) Do we have, as part of who we are being born into humanity, the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

No, because of Adam's sin. The best analogy for me is in terms of a computer program. Adam was the first, the master file if you will, from which all of us came. Through his sin he became corrupted, just like a computer virus corrupts a file, and now all subsequent generations are corrupt.

Adam was destined to eat of the forbidden fruit. The "day" would come.

That seems to me more of a warning than a prediction. Paradoxically however, God knew Adam was going to sin yet gave him the choice anyways. But that's the only way his creation is really going to learn. You can tell a child not to touch a hot pot a thousand times, but only when he touches it does he truly understand.

[Abiding in His Word]

Let's look at Adam's sin. Scripture in Genesis 1 lists God's progress in creation and describes each consecutive design as "good." At the end of the chapter and the end of His creation, we read this:

Genesis 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

But soon afterward, we read the something was "not good."

[i]Gen 2:18  Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." 

So what does God do following this observation? He begins to create animals and birds! And then He presents them to Adam to give them names! Whatever was God thinking? All of this before providing help that would be suitable for him. Why the animal interruption? Surely He knew a bird or giraffe wouldn't meet the need. What was the purpose behind watching what Adam would name them?

Because imo the name would reflect something about Adam and his perspective. I believe Adam was beginning to exhibit an undesirable attitude and the names chosen were evidence of his self-centeredness. So God (finally) forms the help that Adam needed in a visible, tangible form. Notice how Adam expresses his delight...does he even mention God's goodness? Does he thank God for that woman? No. He is only "proud?" that she was formed from his body!

Gen 2:23  The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."

We do not read that God asked Adam to name the woman, but evidently Adam felt that since he had the privilege of naming the animals, he could do so with this new creature. And later calls her Eve (life.)

Adam Clarke's Commentary re: Gen. 3:20 "Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living."

A man who does not understand the original cannot possibly comprehend the reason of what is said here. What has the word Eve to do with being the mother of all living? Our translators often follow the Septuagint; it is a pity they had not done so here, as the Septuagint translation is literal and correct: “And Adam called his wife’s name Life, because she was the mother of all the living.” This is a proper and faithful representation of the Hebrew text...

*******************************

My apologies for the long comment, but I think it's important to see that Adam was afforded choices or free will. And was later given the opportunity to confess his disobedience but chose to blame God and "the woman" He gave Adam for his transgression in an effort to justify himself.

Conclusion: Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God. Adam disobeyed; Eve was deceived. I see this as the first intentional sin on Adam's part and the first unintentional sin on Eve's part. Later, God makes the distinction to the Levites.

Jas 1:14  But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 
Jas 1:15  Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 

This scripture shows the progression I believe was evident in Adam when scripture says "it was not good" for him to be alone. There was already something sinful being conceived in Adam's heart.

[Abiding in His Word]

My comment above hopefully expresses my answer to your first question, Mark. Now for my answer to your second question. :)

Just as Adam began imo to manifest a "me/my/I" attitude, that is the progression we begin to exhibit and implement in our choices throughout life. A baby who has not yet learned to walk, has not learned to sin. As that baby ages, he or she learns to exhibit and exert some behaviors that reflect self-interest and a desire to manipulate in order to assert some measure of power to get what is desired. The focus is on what "I" want.

We have turned the Bible into a law book with the most important law being to obey. We see obedience as the primary law that will keep us out of jail. But when asked about the greatest law (to obey) Jesus summed up the law this way:

Mat 22:36  Master, which is the great commandment in the Law? 
Mat 22:37  Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment. 
Mat 22:39  And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. 

Paul says it like this:

Rom 13:8  Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves another has fulfilled the Law. 

He gives the reason for focusing on love as the most important as opposed to the list of "do nots":

BECAUSE:.... Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.Rom 13:10

So my conclusion is that yes we have a choice and a free will and each person is responsible for their own good/bad choices. But when faced with a variety of circumstances that require good choices that reflect the love of God and love of our neighbor, something begins to manifest itself (as it did with Adam) a desire to make "me" the focus instead and lust is conceived in the heart and it gives birth to sin.

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries,  deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. Mar 7:21-22

[mark s]

since God is righteous and therefore cannot be disingenuous, then I would say that Adam had a real choice to make, he could obey or he could choose not to.

RT

Hi RT,

I would agree with this reasoning.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

(1)
Genesis 2:16-17
16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Adam was destined to eat of the forbidden fruit. Hence 'for in the day' instead of '[ if ] in the day'.
Everyday he did not eat of the fruit is a day he chose to not eat of the fruit.

(2)
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 6:8-10
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, [a]is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Death was master over Christ during His visitation.
Jesus did not obey the one who had mastery over Him during His visitation.
In our fear of Death, the rest of us have obeyed Death; we believers now struggle to work out our salvation and become free; we need no longer fear Death.

Hi Keith,

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand your answer to my questions. Is the first one "Yes", that Adam had no choice but to sin?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Let's look at Adam's sin. Scripture in Genesis 1 lists God's progress in creation and describes each consecutive design as "good." At the end of the chapter and the end of His creation, we read this:

Genesis 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

But soon afterward, we read the something was "not good."

[i]Gen 2:18  Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." 

So what does God do following this observation? He begins to create animals and birds! And then He presents them to Adam to give them names! Whatever was God thinking? All of this before providing help that would be suitable for him. Why the animal interruption? Surely He knew a bird or giraffe wouldn't meet the need. What was the purpose behind watching what Adam would name them?

Because imo the name would reflect something about Adam and his perspective. I believe Adam was beginning to exhibit an undesirable attitude and the names chosen were evidence of his self-centeredness. So God (finally) forms the help that Adam needed in a visible, tangible form. Notice how Adam expresses his delight...does he even mention God's goodness? Does he thank God for that woman? No. He is only "proud?" that she was formed from his body!

Gen 2:23  The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."

We do not read that God asked Adam to name the woman, but evidently Adam felt that since he had the privilege of naming the animals, he could do so with this new creature. And later calls her Eve (life.)

Adam Clarke's Commentary re: Gen. 3:20 "Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living."

A man who does not understand the original cannot possibly comprehend the reason of what is said here. What has the word Eve to do with being the mother of all living? Our translators often follow the Septuagint; it is a pity they had not done so here, as the Septuagint translation is literal and correct: “And Adam called his wife’s name Life, because she was the mother of all the living.” This is a proper and faithful representation of the Hebrew text...

*******************************

My apologies for the long comment, but I think it's important to see that Adam was afforded choices or free will. And was later given the opportunity to confess his disobedience but chose to blame God and "the woman" He gave Adam for his transgression in an effort to justify himself.

Conclusion: Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God. Adam disobeyed; Eve was deceived. I see this as the first intentional sin on Adam's part and the first unintentional sin on Eve's part. Later, God makes the distinction to the Levites.

Jas 1:14  But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 
Jas 1:15  Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 

This scripture shows the progression I believe was evident in Adam when scripture says "it was not good" for him to be alone. There was already something sinful being conceived in Adam's heart.

Hi Abiding,

I have to confess the same thing as with Keith, that is, my confusion.

Your point is very interesting about "good and not good". I think I look at it as a matter of God calling things good, referring to the things themselves, and then when He says, "It is not good for man to be alone", He refers to the man's situation. So the man He called good, but the man's alone-ness was not good.

Also, an excellent quote from Adam Clarke! I wish these names were all translated in the text!

But I'm not sure how you apply this to answer my questions. Can you help?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Hi Abiding,

I just read your second post, and I understand you now I think. Thank you for the clarification and elaboration.

Let me just check to make sure. Your thinking is that Adam, and all who come after him, have the full and free choice to choose good or evil equally the same, with the ability to equally act accordingly. There is neither power nor nature outside of our own choosing that moves us towards good and evil.

But as we live, we, like Adam, invariably move towards choosing evil, making the choice to commit sin.

Is that a correct understanding?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

I think I look at it as a matter of God calling things good, referring to the things themselves, and then when He says, "It is not good for man to be alone", He refers to the man's situation. So the man He called good, but the man's alone-ness was not good.

Hi Mark,

In verse Gen. 31 when God has completed His creation process and states that everything was very good, the meaning of "good" is rather vague but it's root (H2895) is found @512 times in the OT and seems to imply something similar to our understanding today of the word.

But when we come to Gen. 2:18, the word includes a negative..."not." Also of interest is the word "alone" with a different Hebrew meaning than we interpret as "lonely" for companionship. Here is both Strong's and NAS commentaries primary meaning of H905:

H905
בַּד
bad (94c); from H909; separation,

Who was Adam separated from if we use that primary meaning? If we see the narative of Gen. 1,2, and 3 in context, it seems Adam was indeed developing an attitude or behavior that God saw as detrimental. That makes sense as well when we see God's prophetic (warning?) words to Eve in 3:16 that "turning" to Adam will result in his desire to exert rule over her. That truth has been verified and evidence throughout the history of 7,000 yrs.

It's obvious (for me, at least) that the desire for power and control has been the downfall of God's people until Jesus comes to say "it shall not be so with you" and that He humbles Himself and takes on a servant attitude and washes the feet of the disciples as an example of "one another" love.

The formation of Eve is a visible, strong aid designed (in my opinion) to reduce? his self-centerdness. Here is the root word for Eve as a "help/aid" which is used only 21 times in the OT and mostly of God's help.

H5826
עָזַר
‛âzar
aw-zar'
A primitive root; to surround, that is, protect or aid: - help, succour.
Total KJV occurrences: 81

Tragically, many have diminished Eve's purpose and continued the desire for power (which God warned about). Going a bit further, I believe this desired curtailing of Adam's self-centeredness is brought about in that it is the man who must leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife (in her tribe?) That makes sense if you see that God follows this design when He leaves His heavenly Father and comes to the home of His bride where eventually He will dwell with His bride forever according to Rev. 21:3.

[Abiding in His Word]

But as we live, we, like Adam, invariably move towards choosing evil, making the choice to commit sin.

Is that a correct understanding?

It would seem so since we are told that "all have sinned...." However, Gen. 4 indicates that Eve had not forgotten the words of God that a Savior would come from the seed of the woman and evidently thought one of her sons was a fulfillment of those words.

Also, we are told that with the birth of Enosh, Gen. 4:26 there seems to be a relationship of some sort to God as with Noah, Abraham, etc. There was no law, but there was an integrity, if you will, that pleased God. But at various times God does say He is sorry about the direction of mankind and that their hearts are always on evil. Again, most often it seems that the sin was self-serving in nature as in Abraham's lying about his wife so save himself.

[mark s]

In an academic sense, would it be possible that a person could live their life without any sins?

Does the un-born-again person have the potential to always make the right choice in such manner so as to avoid all sins? Regardless of whether they do or not, could they?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[keithareilly]

Mark s wrote

Hi Keith,

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand your answer to my questions. Is the first one "Yes", that Adam had no choice but to sin?

The answer to both questions is both Yes and No.

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart, Pharaoh or God?
Does a penny have a heads side or a tails side?
Sometimes a question is just "or" instead of "either or".

When asking questions about opposing concepts, consider that both might be true as almost all concepts come in pairs, concept and anti concept. if one concept is true, generally, so is the other concept.
For example:
up, down
left, right,
inside, outside,
freedom, predestination,

[Abiding in His Word]

In an academic sense, would it be possible that a person could live their life without any sins?

Does the un-born-again person have the potential to always make the right choice in such manner so as to avoid all sins? Regardless of whether they do or not, could they?

I find the subject of sin a fascinating topic. Here's why...

I see sin as falling short of God's standard for us. How each individual falls short and to what degree he or she falls short is how God judges us. Taking the entire Word of God into consideration, we see a lot of failure...some intentional, deliberate, and purposeful (or "highhanded")...others unintentional, accidental (if you will) or unplanned; i.e. without malice.

We know that from Adam to Moses, there was no "standard" because there was no law established by God. There were laws in the NAE, but the focus was on governmental restrictions rather than a focus on a Holy God's restrictions.

So we see God bringing Adam's disobedience and it's consequences for him to a personal level; i.e. "here's the very sorrowful life you will experience from this point on" but at the same time offering mercy and hope in the form of a Savior.

We see God grieving that he had made man but at the same time extending mercy to Noah who God saw as righteous and blameless "in his time." And yet, we see Noah could not resist overindulging in the wine from his vineyards and we see his weakness in his drunkenness.

Continue on with Jacob, Isaac, Joseph, Abraham, etc. and we see bad decisions and choices as well as the consequences of those failures. Some were intentional and deliberate but likely seen as the lesser of two evils and made in the (self) interest of the person making them. Even David and Solomon fell short of God's standard and yet were viewed by Him as having a heart toward God.

I'm unaware of God speaking judgement or condemnation to these whose lives form the foundation or history leading up to the time of Moses and God's effort to build a nation with boundaries and laws called the Mosaic Law. With the advent of this era, the consequences of failure to follow them are laid out in detail within the laws. Now these people are without excuse as they now have a clear picture of God's standard of justice, fairness, and treatment of others with whom they will live and come in contact with. In other words, He is teaching them (via a tutor/law) what sin is. This nation of people needed to be able to recognize right from wrong, good from bad, and deliberate, planned evil acts as opposed to accidental, unplanned acts.

So, by the time we get to the prophets, they are justified in speaking strong, harsh words to the Israelites. They were without excuse.

My understanding is that we must be cautious about a "cut and paste" method of interpreting scripture but rather arrive at our conclusions as the result of seeing the history of progression God used to get from A-Z with the fulfillment of the promise in "A" (Genesis 3) to "Z" the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus in the gospels.

Only then, imho, can we view sin in it's intended portrayal and consequences to individuals throughout history. When Paul is converted, he finally recognizes the purpose of the Law of Moses and his sin. While he confesses he is the "chief of sinners," he also realizes his sins were the result of ignorance as he did not believe (in Jesus as Savior.) And yet scripture tells us the High Priest both of the OT and the High Priest Jesus, can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided because they understand the weakness of the flesh.

Not an easy topic but I personally don't think it's a black or white one either. God offers grace and only He knows the condition of one's heart that leads to sin and what He can do to bring them to a recognition and restoration of that condition.

ETA: I have mentioned before that I never saw myself as a sinner prior to being saved. I obeyed all the rules....the only exception was when I was about 7 yrs. old and stole a York Peppermint Patty from the store. When the priest told me I had to go back and pay for it, I threw a nickle on the counter and ran out the door. I figured I made reparation for that sin.

[Ready1]

In an academic sense, would it be possible that a person could live their life without any sins?

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

[Sonbeam]

I have 2 questions, I'll let you know what I think, I'd like to know what you think. I'd like to ask for specific yes/no, with whatever Scriptures and reasoning have led to your view.

(1) Did Adam have the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

Yes. However, several things were stacked up against Adam from the very beginning that automatically gave him a propensity, leaning, etc., to choose his own way (to sin) rather than God’s:

1. God created Adam with a body of flesh.

The physical body is not inherently evil. It is “very good” for the purpose God designed it. But the Creator gave the flesh a powerful built in instinct for survival and five senses with innate needs to be satisfied.

This is why in Gal 5:17 Paul writes:

For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

So it is interesting that God’s command to Adam was not to eat of the tree—an essential survival need of the flesh and one pleasurable to the senses.

2. God gave Adam the ability to choose though Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil, and obviously no knowledge of what “death” meant since he had no fear until AFTER he broke the law. Therefore, he had no moral compass, no conscience prior to when he ate of the tree to help him make the decision not to eat.

Though eventually, even with a conscience, Adam and his children were destined to choose to follow their own way, as we all know from personal experience.

3. Oh and let's not forget that God allowed the devil/serpent "more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made" to tempt Adam's offspring first.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit later revealed to Paul that the Genesis scenario in the garden was an essential part of God’s plan to in the course of time reveal His mercy to all men. So yes, this was a divine set up.

Rom 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

(2) Do we have, as part of who we are being born into humanity, the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

Yes. But while we might be able to choose not to sin on occasion, we cannot do so 100 percent of the time. We cannot keep the law perfectly to try to obtain righteousness (acceptance from God). The object lesson God gave us through the Sinai Covenant confirmed this time and again.

Christ’s emphatic answer to His disciples after His interaction with the rich young ruler in Matt. 19, further left no doubt on this:

Matt 19:
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.




sonbeam

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi sonbeam,

Just a couple points about your comment above.

So it is interesting that God’s command to Adam was not to eat of the tree—an essential survival need of the flesh and one pleasurable to the senses.

God's words of warning were directed to Adam referencing one tree only. That was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. All other trees were available to him for "essential survival." Interestingly, we are not told Adam partook of the tree of life. So only one tree was prohibited and God explained the consequences of eating from that tree to Adam.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit later revealed to Paul that the Genesis scenario in the garden was an essential part of God’s plan to in the course of time reveal His mercy to all men. So yes, this was a divine set up.

Would you please expound on that comment? Are you saying that God, in essence, intentionally designed a trap for Adam? If not, what do you mean by "divine set up?" I found that confusing.

Thanks!

[Sonbeam]

Hi sonbeam,

Just a couple points about your comment above.

So it is interesting that God’s command to Adam was not to eat of the tree—an essential survival need of the flesh and one pleasurable to the senses.

God's words of warning were directed to Adam referencing one tree only. That was the tree of knowledge of good and evil. All other trees were available to him for "essential survival." Interestingly, we are not told Adam partook of the tree of life. So only one tree was prohibited and God explained the consequences of eating from that tree to Adam.

Yes I agree that God placed a prohibition on one tree only. I assumed everybody knew I was referencing the tree of knowledge. However, it is still true that the prohibition was in regards to a survival function of the flesh.

I disagree that God explained to Adam the consequences of eating from the tree. There is no scripture showing that God explained to him what "death" (spiritual at that) meant. Not that it would have made any difference anyway without Adam having the knowledge of what was good and what was evil until AFTER he ate.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit later revealed to Paul that the Genesis scenario in the garden was an essential part of God’s plan to in the course of time reveal His mercy to all men. So yes, this was a divine set up.

Would you please expound on that comment? Are you saying that God, in essence, intentionally designed a trap for Adam? If not, what do you mean by "divine set up?" I found that confusing.

Thanks!

I suppose that many would find the idea offensive that God destined/created Adam to fail and break His law. But as I mentioned before the Holy Spirit revealed to Paul that this was a necessary step in the process of salvation.

Rom 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I also explained or gave several reasons that I believe certainly confirm the above scripture.

sonbeam

[Abiding in His Word]

Yes I agree that God placed a prohibition on one tree only. I assumed everybody knew I was referencing the tree of knowledge. However, it is still true that the prohibition was in regards to a survival function of the flesh.

What survival function of the flesh are you referring to? Adam and Eve's survival depended on food and water much the same throughout history for all mankind. Those things were provided for them in the garden.

I disagree that God explained to Adam the consequences of eating from the tree. There is no scripture showing that God explained to him what "death" (spiritual at that) meant. Not that it would have made any difference anyway without Adam having the knowledge of what was good and what was evil until AFTER he ate.

I think you're underestimating both God and Adam with this statement, sonbeam. God doesn't normally speak in riddles to keep His people guessing what He meant otherwise they would not be accountable. And Adam wasn't lacking in intelligence as he was given the responsibility to care for and guard the garden. Furthermore, he was afforded the opportunity to name the animals under the watchful eye of God. Some efficient measure of wisdom and intelligence is evidenced by his God-given choices and responsibilities, right? The fact that Adam did not heed God's words is evidenced by scriptures that label his sin as disobedient, transgressing and trying to cover his sin. Now Eve is a different story, apparently, since she wanted more wisdom and consequently was deceived into thinking the tree of knowledge would be the answer for her. This desire is the very same that Solomon had and God was pleased with that.

I suppose that many would find the idea offensive that God destined/created Adam to fail and break His law.

Well, count me in as one who find the idea offensive, but the reason is that it negates Adam's ability to choose and his free will.

But as I mentioned before the Holy Spirit revealed to Paul that this was a necessary step in the process of salvation.

Rom 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I also explained or gave several reasons that I believe certainly confirm the above scripture.

In it's context....Paul is speaking to the Jews and is explaining the reason why the gentiles are finding the Messiah. He
confirmed a couple verses earlier that a partial hardening has happened until the fullness of the gentiles is complete. He always had a burden for the "Jews first....and then the gentiles." He spends a good deal of time and effort to convince the Jews that their adherence to the law does not apply to the gentiles and does not earn salvation. Since Paul was a Roman citizen and a Pharisee, the Jews were often very confrontational with Paul when he preached to them so he is trying throughout Romans to convince them of the doctrinal errors they have promoted while at the same time prove that God is the God of the gentiles as well.

God does not cause or design sin or else we could resort to blaming him as Adam did.

[sacredcowbasher]

Hi Mark, I believe your reasoning is very good. I agree that Adam had the choice whether to sin or not to sin. It is possible that the Lord had a hedge of protection around him and allowed Eve to be lied to (deceived) by the serpent. It is possible that Adam’s love for his human mate, the person he spent much of the time with, who were similar in every way (humanly speaking), and that identifying with her so closely caused him to side with Eve and go against God and His commandment. In this sense he loved the creature more than the creator. Romans 1.

Man is weak, and even though he is responsible for his actions, he faces (without Christ) insurmountable odds when it comes to avoiding sin. Adam was not without God in the sense that he communed with Him every evening. It may be that Eve was with them as they walked and talked, it is not clear in the word. I believe you said this, but sin had not entered into the world at this time. Not until Eve sinned did sin enter, and the fact that Eve sinned did not automatically throw them out of Eden. It was Adam’s sin that got them kicked out. Eve was deceived, Adam went into this with eyes wide open.

The world, the flesh, and the devil are too strong to be overcome by a man who is not walking by faith in Jesus Christ and what He accomplished at the cross. In Romans 8:19-21 it reads, For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

This ‘shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption’ can happen of this side of heaven. The apostle Paul tells us in Romans 6:5-14, For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him. /for in that He died, he died onto sin once: but in that he liveth, He liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


There are two powerful laws written in the new testament that gives us some understanding of how powerful sin is. In Romans 8:1,2 we see this, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For 'the law' of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from 'the law' of sin and death.

Even though we are subject to vanity and are born sinners, God has made a way. Once a man hears the gospel he has no excuse or he can not say, ‘God is not fair because he made me this way’. It can not be said, because He also gave us His only begotten Son.

[1whowaits]

Mark, i believe that in an academic sense a person could live a life without sin, the bigger problem being not the living of the life but the choosing to live such a life.

At its core sin is any and all rebellion against God, against His commands, His will, His desire. Sin is rebellion against God in fulfillment of one's own will and desires, the will of the self or self-will. To beings who have a will, self-will is intoxicating, it is like a highly addictive drug such as heroin. Heroin addicts experience physical and emotional addiction, they do not want to stop, even if the drug destroys them, they do not want to give up what they experience.

And so it is with self-will, men will never choose to give it up, even if it ends in their destruction. Men will never choose on their own to give up self-will and receive God's will, the problem is the choosing. God makes the plan, provides the atonement, the cure, the opportunity to make the choice is given, but man will still refuse to choose God.

So God must go further, God must 'draw' men- 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..' John 6. Apparently in the 'drawing' God suppresses the self-will to the point where man can choose God's will and not his own.

But even after one chooses to submit to God's will with God's 'drawing', the 'old man' still exists, the tendency toward self-will still exists, making sin still possible. Even after choosing God, men can still gravitate to choosing self-will, the battle of choosing which will is in control can go on.

So academically, one could live a life without sin, if one chose to do so, which they would never do.

[mark s]

Mark s wrote

Hi Keith,

I'm sorry, but I don't really understand your answer to my questions. Is the first one "Yes", that Adam had no choice but to sin?

The answer to both questions is both Yes and No.

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart, Pharaoh or God?
Does a penny have a heads side or a tails side?
Sometimes a question is just "or" instead of "either or".

When asking questions about opposing concepts, consider that both might be true as almost all concepts come in pairs, concept and anti concept. if one concept is true, generally, so is the other concept.
For example:
up, down
left, right,
inside, outside,
freedom, predestination,

Hi Keith,

"Up" and "Down", I would agree, both exist simultaneously as reference points to your position, however, you can only move in one direction at a time.

In the narrative of Pharaoh, God essentially said that He was going to make Pharaoh's heart like stone. So He hit Pharaoh with all those plague, as Pharaoh made his heart wooden. After a while of this, the Scripture switches to God making Pharaoh's heart like stone. The Bible uses a different word.

Just some thoughts.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Mark, i believe that in an academic sense a person could live a life without sin, the bigger problem being not the living of the life but the choosing to live such a life.

At its core sin is any and all rebellion against God, against His commands, His will, His desire. Sin is rebellion against God in fulfillment of one's own will and desires, the will of the self or self-will. To beings who have a will, self-will is intoxicating, it is like a highly addictive drug such as heroin. Heroin addicts experience physical and emotional addiction, they do not want to stop, even if the drug destroys them, they do not want to give up what they experience.

And so it is with self-will, men will never choose to give it up, even if it ends in their destruction. Men will never choose on their own to give up self-will and receive God's will, the problem is the choosing. God makes the plan, provides the atonement, the cure, the opportunity to make the choice is given, but man will still refuse to choose God.

So God must go further, God must 'draw' men- 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him..' John 6. Apparently in the 'drawing' God suppresses the self-will to the point where man can choose God's will and not his own.

But even after one chooses to submit to God's will with God's 'drawing', the 'old man' still exists, the tendency toward self-will still exists, making sin still possible. Even after choosing God, men can still gravitate to choosing self-will, the battle of choosing which will is in control can go on.

So academically, one could live a life without sin, if one chose to do so, which they would never do.

Hi 1whowaits,

In Romans 6 where it says we were slaves to sin, but we have become slaves to righteousness, what does that mean to you?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

I have 2 questions, I'll let you know what I think, I'd like to know what you think. I'd like to ask for specific yes/no, with whatever Scriptures and reasoning have led to your view.

(1) Did Adam have the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

Yes. However, several things were stacked up against Adam from the very beginning that automatically gave him a propensity, leaning, etc., to choose his own way (to sin) rather than God’s:

1. God created Adam with a body of flesh.

The physical body is not inherently evil. It is “very good” for the purpose God designed it. But the Creator gave the flesh a powerful built in instinct for survival and five senses with innate needs to be satisfied.

This is why in Gal 5:17 Paul writes:

For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

So it is interesting that God’s command to Adam was not to eat of the tree—an essential survival need of the flesh and one pleasurable to the senses.

2. God gave Adam the ability to choose though Adam did not have the knowledge of good and evil, and obviously no knowledge of what “death” meant since he had no fear until AFTER he broke the law. Therefore, he had no moral compass, no conscience prior to when he ate of the tree to help him make the decision not to eat.

Though eventually, even with a conscience, Adam and his children were destined to choose to follow their own way, as we all know from personal experience.

3. Oh and let's not forget that God allowed the devil/serpent "more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made" to tempt Adam's offspring first.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit later revealed to Paul that the Genesis scenario in the garden was an essential part of God’s plan to in the course of time reveal His mercy to all men. So yes, this was a divine set up.

Rom 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

(2) Do we have, as part of who we are being born into humanity, the true choice of whether or not to sin, with either option equally available?

Yes. But while we might be able to choose not to sin on occasion, we cannot do so 100 percent of the time. We cannot keep the law perfectly to try to obtain righteousness (acceptance from God). The object lesson God gave us through the Sinai Covenant confirmed this time and again.

Christ’s emphatic answer to His disciples after His interaction with the rich young ruler in Matt. 19, further left no doubt on this:

Matt 19:
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.




sonbeam

Hi sonbeam,

(and I'd like to take this moment to express my appreciation to everyone participating! Been reading some great responses!)

Was it God's will, His perfect plan, that man sin?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[keithareilly]

If I am on an air plane that is climbing in altitude and fall down while walking to the men's rooms, did I fall up or down?
Freedom of choice and predestination are attributes ascribed to the same event when viewed from different frames of reference.

------
Philipians 2:12 (partial)
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2 Tim 1:12 (partial)
for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Shall I trust God to keep that which I have committed or should I work out my salvation in fear and trembling? Both.

------
1 Corinthinas 7:22
For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.
Am I free or am I a slave? Both.

------
Statistically speaking, because All men have sinned, there is no chance (chance is a statistical term) that Adam was free to not sin and that you and I are free to not sin. Not possible, the math does not add up. If it were possible for men to not sin, there would be a statistical representation of those who did not sin. The lack of a sinless population is proof it is not possible for each of us to have not sinned. We have no choice in the matter.

On the other hand ...

Christ was born under Sin but did not sin. He is our high priest who has been tempted in every way as we have but did not sin. Christ was born into our circumstances, as flesh enslaved to sin; but, He did not sin. Consequently, we know for certain that each of us are free to not sin should we choose. Christ showed us that truth by his life.

So again, the answers to your questions are both "Yes" and "No" at the same time.

------
Edited to add ...
Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

All things, both good and evil, work for the good to those who love the lord.
Even these opposites, good and evil, work together to our benefit.

A penny has two opposite, opposing sides. Both are necessary for the penny to be whole.
If you want the whole truth, accept the truth and reality of both sides.

Unity cannot happen until we recognize that opposites are not mutually exclusive and are not divisive.

[mark s]

God doesn't normally speak in riddles to keep His people guessing what He meant otherwise they would not be accountable.

Hi Abiding,

I think this is an excellent point! "Where there is no law, there is no transgression". (Corrected my quote). From Romans 4. I think there's another thread started but I haven't had the chance to read through it yet.

But Romans 5, while it spells out the facts of life that sin kills regardless of any judicial response, it goes on to say that sin is not imputed where there is no law.

So it's like not ticketing someone for speeding because the sign isn't there. Yes, there is a top safe speed. Yes you can get hurt or killed by exceeding it. And you've even broken the law by driving that fast. But the judge will dismiss the ticket because the sign was gone.

It's an amazing and incredible thing when I think about it, the grace that God extends!

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

The apostle Paul tells us in Romans 6:5-14, For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin..

Hi sacredcowbasher,

Why does the body of sin need to be destroyed? (or more literally, made powerless?)

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

I think I look at it as a matter of God calling things good, referring to the things themselves, and then when He says, "It is not good for man to be alone", He refers to the man's situation. So the man He called good, but the man's alone-ness was not good.

Hi Mark,

In verse Gen. 31 when God has completed His creation process and states that everything was very good, the meaning of "good" is rather vague but it's root (H2895) is found @512 times in the OT and seems to imply something similar to our understanding today of the word.

But when we come to Gen. 2:18, the word includes a negative..."not." Also of interest is the word "alone" with a different Hebrew meaning than we interpret as "lonely" for companionship. Here is both Strong's and NAS commentaries primary meaning of H905:

H905
בַּד
bad (94c); from H909; separation,

Who was Adam separated from if we use that primary meaning? If we see the narative of Gen. 1,2, and 3 in context, it seems Adam was indeed developing an attitude or behavior that God saw as detrimental. That makes sense as well when we see God's prophetic (warning?) words to Eve in 3:16 that "turning" to Adam will result in his desire to exert rule over her. That truth has been verified and evidence throughout the history of 7,000 yrs.

It's obvious (for me, at least) that the desire for power and control has been the downfall of God's people until Jesus comes to say "it shall not be so with you" and that He humbles Himself and takes on a servant attitude and washes the feet of the disciples as an example of "one another" love.

The formation of Eve is a visible, strong aid designed (in my opinion) to reduce? his self-centerdness. Here is the root word for Eve as a "help/aid" which is used only 21 times in the OT and mostly of God's help.

H5826
עָזַר
‛âzar
aw-zar'
A primitive root; to surround, that is, protect or aid: - help, succour.
Total KJV occurrences: 81

Tragically, many have diminished Eve's purpose and continued the desire for power (which God warned about). Going a bit further, I believe this desired curtailing of Adam's self-centeredness is brought about in that it is the man who must leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife (in her tribe?) That makes sense if you see that God follows this design when He leaves His heavenly Father and comes to the home of His bride where eventually He will dwell with His bride forever according to Rev. 21:3.

Hi Abiding,

Just to let you know, I'm still digesting this.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

If I am on an air plane that is climbing in altitude and fall down while walking to the men's rooms, did I fall up or down?
Freedom of choice and predestination are attributes ascribed to the same event when viewed from different frames of reference.

Hi Keith,

I would disagree that these are the same. But I don't want to sidetrack this thread too far. Not to mention there are threads where I've written quite a bit on the topic.

Philipians 2:12 (partial)
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2 Tim 1:12 (partial)
for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Shall I trust God to keep that which I have committed or should I work out my salvation in fear and trembling? Both.

What is that which has been committed to Him?

I'm thinking that the answer is in that He has redeemed us, He has saved us, and He will complete our salvation, the transformation of our flesh. And these things I've committed to Him, and these things I know He will do.

Work (katergadzomai) out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who works (ergon) in you to will and to do what pleases Him.

We are responsible to implement into our lives what God is building into us.

Again, I don't what to get too sidetracked.

1 Corinthinas 7:22
For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.

Am I free or am I a slave? Both.

I think this is a completely different context. I think the point Paul is making is that we should not define ourselves by the world's terms, but to define ourselves by God's terms. We are free from human bondage, while slaves to Christ. These are not the same things.

Statistically speaking, because All men have sinned, there is no chance (chance is a statistical term) that Adam was free to not sin and that you and I are free to not sin. Not possible, the math does not add up. If it were possible for men to not sin, there would be a statistical representation of those who did not sin.

On the other hand ...

Christ was born under Sin but did not sin. He is our high priest who has been tempted in every way as we have but did not sin. Christ was born into our circumstances, as flesh enslaved to sin; but, He did not sin. Consequently, we know for certain that each of us are free to not sin should we choose. Christ showed us that truth by his life.

So again, the answers to your questions are both "Yes" and "No" at the same time.

You've stated, Christ was born . . . as flesh enslaved to sin. Would you mind posting Scripture that teaches this?

Thank you!

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

In an academic sense, would it be possible that a person could live their life without any sins?

Does the un-born-again person have the potential to always make the right choice in such manner so as to avoid all sins? Regardless of whether they do or not, could they?

I find the subject of sin a fascinating topic. Here's why...

(shortened for brevity)

Hi Abiding,

Your post makes this topic more fascinating indeed!

Lots of good food for thought there.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[keithareilly]

Hebrews 2:14
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

Jesus was born: in flesh and blood, under the Law, under sin's power.

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus was tempted "in all points".
This also means under the same circumstances; not simply with the same desires.
He was born every bit enslaved to sin's power as all men since Adam were born.
Yet, He did not sin.

On a side note, I have wondered why Christ was able to not sin given the His circumstances.
I think it is because He knew the truth and was not deceived.

Keith

[mark s]

He was born every bit enslaved to sin's power as all men since Adam were born.

Hi Keith,

Well, I don't think we could be further apart on this point.

But I know we're together in Christ!

Love in Him,
Mark

[keithareilly]

Bless you Mark.

[1whowaits]

We are slaves to sin in the sense of a bond-slave, we choose to make sin our master, because we like it. I use the term self-will as the motivation behind sin, we wish to fulfill our will over God's will, we choose our will over God's will.

By Adam's sin the concept of self will is introduced to us, we have a choice, we can defy God's will, a concept that Adam may not have had prior to the fall. Once that concept exists, that we can do what we will, we choose to be a slave to that concept, because we become like God, we take God's place and exert our will over His.

We can become bond-slaves to righteousness if we choose to do so, but only with God's help, His 'drawing'. Even after we become bond-slaves to righteousness, the old nature still is in the background, as Paul stated- wretched man that I am, what i want to do, I do not do and what I don't want to do, I do.

The choice between good and evil is not an illusion, it is a real choice, we are not forced by some outside power to sin. But because of our desire to choose our own will over any other, we will always choose sin (free will), on our own we will always be in opposition to God's will over our own.

But if God 'draw's us, if He intervenes (predestination), we can choose God's will over our own, but only with God's help.

[keithareilly]

He was born every bit enslaved to sin's power as all men since Adam were born.

Hi Keith,

Well, I don't think we could be further apart on this point.

But I know we're together in Christ!

Love in Him,
Mark

Readers, here is some scripture backing up Mark s view.

Luke 10:
17The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19“Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20“Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

If Jesus can grant power over the enemy, then he cannot be subject to the enemy's power.

Keith

[mark s]

We are slaves to sin in the sense of a bond-slave, we choose to make sin our master, because we like it. I use the term self-will as the motivation behind sin, we wish to fulfill our will over God's will, we choose our will over God's will.

By Adam's sin the concept of self will is introduced to us, we have a choice, we can defy God's will, a concept that Adam may not have had prior to the fall. Once that concept exists, that we can do what we will, we choose to be a slave to that concept, because we become like God, we take God's place and exert our will over His.

We can become bond-slaves to righteousness if we choose to do so, but only with God's help, His 'drawing'. Even after we become bond-slaves to righteousness, the old nature still is in the background, as Paul stated- wretched man that I am, what i want to do, I do not do and what I don't want to do, I do.

The choice between good and evil is not an illusion, it is a real choice, we are not forced by some outside power to sin. But because of our desire to choose our own will over any other, we will always choose sin (free will), on our own we will always be in opposition to God's will over our own.

But if God 'draw's us, if He intervenes (predestination), we can choose God's will over our own, but only with God's help.

Hi 1whowaits,

Why does the body of sin need to be rendered powerless? (Ref. Romans 6)

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Readers, here is some scripture backing up Mark s view.

Luke 10:
17The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning. 19“Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. 20“Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

If Jesus can grant power over the enemy, then he cannot be subject to the enemy's power.

Keith

Hi Keith,

Now you've got me thinking on a new line . . .

There's another passage this reminds me of, Hebrews 2:14-15 (NASB)

14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Jesus said, no one takes it (that is, His life) from Me, I lay it down of My Own accord.

So no one had the power of death over Jesus. So this is a difference between Jesus and the rest of humanity.

Love in Christ,
Mark


And . . . blessings to you my brother!

[keithareilly]

Mark s wrote

Hi Keith,

Now you've got me thinking on a new line . . .

There's another passage this reminds me of, Hebrews 2:14-15 (NASB)

14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Jesus said, no one takes it (that is, His life) from Me, I lay it down of My Own accord.

So no one had the power of death over Jesus. So this is a difference between Jesus and the rest of humanity.

Love in Christ,
Mark

There is a lot in that verse.
The Hierarchy.
Satan rules over Death,
Death, through fear, enslaves (rules over) mankind;
Resulting in mankind serving Satan through enslavement through fear.

To render Satan powerless, Jesus had to take the form of flesh and blood.
Then through the death of that flesh and blood, he could render Satan powerless.

Note that is through the fear of death that Satan gains his power over mankind.
Jesus was obedient to God unto death; He was not obedient to Satan in fear of Death.
Jesus said:
Mathew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus knew the truth, whom to fear and whom not to fear. This is one of the things that made Him different.
So, even though He was flesh and blood under the same circumstances as the rest of mankind, His knowledge of the truth kept Him from being enslaved and is why He came into this world "To testify to the truth" (John 18:37)
He even told us if we know the truth the truth set us free (john 8:32).
Satan is the father of lies and practices deception to enslave mankind.
Jesus came to shed light, truth. to free us from that enslavement.
Truth matters.

Per Romans 6, when we are baptized, we are united with Christ in His death, a death over which Satan has no power; because, it was the death of a flesh and blood that had not sinned and had not earned the wages of sin, death. Thus, as the passage in Hebrews above describes, through [His own] death, Jesus rendered Satan, who has power over death, powerless. By uniting in Christ's death, we are uniting in the only death over which Death and Satan, the one who rules over Death, have no claim. This renders Satan powerless over those baptized.

Edited to Add ...
In the end Jesus takes away Satan's power by removing the fear of death.
Jesus disarmed Satan taking away his weapon, fear.
So, Jesus is definitely more powerful.

Keith

[sacredcowbasher]

The apostle Paul tells us in Romans 6:5-14, For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin..

Hi sacredcowbasher,

Why does the body of sin need to be destroyed? (or more literally, made powerless?)

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark, The apostle Paul said it this way: Romans 7:18 - 8:2 For I know in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, bvut sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,

Here, Paul is, in verse 23, explaining it further what he stated in verse 21 and 22.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

This is the body of sin, or our flesh which has a sin nature. I will say more afterward.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When Paul states, ‘I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.’, he is not leading up to something in saying this. He is giving us the answer to the question of who shall deliver me from the body of sin.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Chapter 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free form the law of sin and death.

Here, we are at the peak of the revelation of Paul’s writings in Romans. If you can take my word for it, because it is very academic to go into to prove it, Paul sinned and failed after he was born again. This is what he writing about. He is not writhing about a man who has never been born again. Paul did the same thing all of us do when we are saved. We try to live out our salvation life the best way we know how.

Paul was taught by Gamaliel and was an excellent student of the law; a pharisee of pharisees. When he was born again, he assumed that he could now live out his born again life by the law. Surely he could now keep the law, for he could feel the Spirit of God running through his being. This is how he comes to these chapters in Romans.

Paul received the truth of how to live while in the desert those three years. He received it from the Lord Himself. He shows us the two laws and we come to this conclusion, 7:25 So with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul has received the blessed truth that Jesus’ victory is our victory. We are in Christ a new creature. We can not overcome sin by the law, any law; whether it is the law of Moses, or a law we make unto ourselves: Our righteousness is as filthy rags. The only righteousness that God recognizes is the person Jesus Christ, the spotless Lamb of God. When we come to God with the right sacrifice, we are accepted. As Able was accepted, and Cain rejected; if we bring the correct sacrifice, we are accepted. We can bring nothing that is of our flesh. We started with Ro 7:18 For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing:

If Paul concludes that it is ok or right to serve God with our mind while our flesh sins, where does that leave us? It leaves us firstly with a correct understanding of how to live. Jesus defeated sin at the cross, His victory is our victory because we are in Him. We live by faith in Him and what He accomplished at the cross. So what can I do when I sin?

We confess our sin and receive forgiveness and we keep living by faith. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in:

When we are born again, we are imputed God’s righteousness. We are justified, declared innocent. In this sense we are instantly sanctified, otherwise we could not have audience with God. What about the body of sin?

There is also ‘progressive’ sanctification. This is a process where the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin and leads us unto all truth. We are becoming like Jesus Christ, being formed into the man Christ Jesus. It is His work, we are His workmanship. This is why the apostle said to one of the church’s, ‘until I see Christ formed in you once again.’ A certain church had messed up and Paul was astonished at quickly they had gotten messed up. Now, he has to wait to see Christ formed in them once again.

If the teaching is right, and those who listen can receive it, they will grow at the best pace possible. It is God’s desire that we bear much fruit.

So why do we have to die? We can not be made better, we must be crucified with Christ. We are not to look to be better selves, we are to be formed into His image. Our flesh can not get there, it has to be crucified.

What this means is that we are living sacrifices, we reckon ourselves to be dead, never the less we live, but not us, but Christ that lives in us. I have not arrived, but I press toward the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

[1whowaits]

Mark, the body of sin needs to be made powerless so that we become like Christ, and the process by which that is accomplished is sanctification. It appears that God's endpoint is that we become like Him, we become like Christ, we are joined with Christ, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Why does this not happen immediately, why does this process occur over time, why the past 6,000 years? IMO this is how God is dealing with rebellion and self will. When sentient being are created with the ability to have a will and make their own decisions, there is always a risk that they will rebel and follow their own will. This appears to be a universal problem, it occurs not only in created men but also in perfectly created angels.

So it appears that we are in the process that brings the rebellious will of the created into permanent alignment with the will of the creator, forever banishing rebellion and self will. When this process is completed, after the GWTJ, we can move forward as one with God, dwelling together in the New Jerusalem forever.

[keithareilly]

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

The transformation caused by the renewing of the mind is not immediate. It is a difficult struggle.
Biologically, this means we grow new synapses in our brains and old ones die.
Thus is our mind transformed.

When we lift weights, our muscles break down and reform to adapt to the new muscular behavior.
I suspect, when we repent, our synapses break down and reform in new patterns to adapt to our new behavior.
The biological stress of repentance limits what we are able to handle.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

God does not allow us to be temped beyond what we can handle and, during each temptation, He provides an escape so that we need not sin.

As we struggle with repentance, we are to forgive each other 70 weeks of times. Why? because we are to understand that overcoming temptation means changing our patterns of behavior and that changing patterns of behavior requires changing the patterns of, i.e. renewing, our mind from the previously established corrupt patterns.

We are rescued from this body of death in part through this process. Ideally, we do not need to ever sin again as God provides an escape. But we don't always take that escape because we do not want to or because our mind has an established patterned to sin and it is difficult to choose against the pattern. It is why repentance is so important, for without repentance, we do not force our minds to undergo the change needed to accommodate the new behaviors of our bodies. Without repentance, our minds are not renewed.

Because Christ never sinned, His mind (synapses, flesh) was never corrupted to learn sinful patterns.

Keith

[keithareilly]

John 8:32
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Before we can be free, we must continue in the word. Without continuing in the word we cannot be free.

Enslavement to sin describes our situation prior to our belief and prior to Christian maturity.
It should not describe our situation once we know the truth.
If it still describes out situation, then we do not yet know the truth.

[Abiding in His Word]

Seems most all agree that we have free will and the ability to choose. And most all agree that in exercising our free will, we will most likely make wrong choices along the way.

My question is then, who decides whether or not my choices are wrong or sinful? For example, some believe birth control is sin. If I don't see that and choose to use artificial birth control, can someone accuse me of sin in this regard? Or perhaps I choose to enjoy a glass of wine with my daily meal, and those who think drinking alcohol is sin accuse me of sinning. Many see homosexuals as evil, but am I sinning if I have a homosexual friend with whom I water ski occasionally? Some Christians think playing cards or placing a bet on a greyhound at the races is sin, but I don't. Some believe its a sin to avoid church for a long period of time, but I see it was intended as a day of rest and occasionally decide to spend it as such.

Am I free to question a teaching I hear from the pulpit? Am I free to refuse to sign a membership contract the church requires? What if I choose to pray on my way to the grocery store in traffic rather than on my knees in my secret room? Or, God forbid, I choose to divorce my spouse for reasons I refuse to divulge to others? Or what if I believe in assisted suicide when the pain and suffering becomes unbearable?

The examples I given are not among those obvious sins in scripture; i.e. murder, adultery, theft, greed, or federal/state laws, etc. so who decides what choices I make from my free will can be defined as sin in the eyes of others?

[1whowaits]

Abiding, the answer to your last question is of course God, God is the main One you have to answer to. God knows our motivations in making decisions, motivations we may deny even to ourselves. Scripture answers questions, Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners to demonstrate His love and encourage their repentance, spending time with a homosexual is not wrong if the motivation is right. God gives us direction in prayer and through other Christians, and as Paul indicates, we try not to offend weaker brothers and sisters and lead them astray with our decisions.

Sometimes we want to be like teenagers, we want to test the limits of the rules and we are offended if it seems that someone is trying to hold us back or assert their authority over us or limit our freedom. But as we mature we become like parents, we are not free to act or make decisions that a test the limits, others are watching us. And the decisions we make and the words we say have consequences, not only for us, but for them.

We are free but we are not free, we are responsible, so our decisions must also be made in that light.

[Exit40]

John 8:32
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Before we can be free, we must continue in the word. Without continuing in the word we cannot be free.

Enslavement to sin describes our situation prior to our belief and prior to Christian maturity.
It should not describe our situation once we know the truth.
If it still describes out situation, then we do not yet know the truth.

Hi Keith. I think these verses answer to our freedom, which is not free. There is a price, Jesus as our Christ paid it for us, as we are bought of Him, believing in Him sincerely is therefore freedom, and the Truth.

Jhn 3:4 ¶ Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 ¶ Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 ¶ Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10 ¶ Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Christian maturity as you call it, is being a master of Israel so to speak, in that the Word promises us eternal life in Christ. We simply have to master ourselves in our belief. Seems difficult if not impossible to us when we think about it. But what does Christ say ?

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

We learn of the Father through Christ revealing Him, in His Living Word wherein we find, once again, we are bought and paid for. Our rebirth is our pearl of great price, found in Christ alone. Thus we learn we are Pilgrims here in a land not ours. Why carry all the baggage of fret and worry about our sin. It's already forgiven, even before we commit it, if we do. Learning of Christ as we do is easy, and light, just as He promised. Setting down our earthly baggage and picking up His Word teaches us His Truth, in which we are free. Learn to love our Christ Jesus, as He loves us, and trusting in Him to guide us onto the narrow path towards the Gates of Heaven itself, and Christ standing there waiting for us. And on our journey to there we must remember this.

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jhn 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

God Bless You

David

[Abiding in His Word]

we want to test the limits of the rules

My point is that the "rules" that others deem applicable, may not be. That's the whole point of my post. We cannot judge others. We ought not to pride ourselves in being expert "sin sniffers" and begin to apply "clobber verses." Again, I'm not talking about those who blatantly practice the sins listed in 1 Cor. 6 and 1 Tim. 1. I'm talking about the believer's freedom to exercise their free will and make personal choices in their lives based on their conscience.

Jesus wasn't overly concerned about what others thought when he lambasted the rules the Pharisees had burdened others with. Jesus didn't promote a list of 613 rules; He gave two that would be the basis for our actions; love of God and love of neighbor.

...to be continued

[Sonbeam]

I just skimmed through some of the comments that I've missed since I've been away for a few days. I'll need to
go back and do a careful reading. This is a very interesting discussion.

Anyway, I hope some of my comments now will answer some of the questions Abiding, Mark and others have
on my previous ones.

Here's the applicable verse on our discussion:

Gen 3:6

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

The favorable assessment the woman made of the fruit was to be expected as God had created food to be good to eat and pleasing to the senses in order, no doubt, for man to be drawn to partake of it and continue to survive physically. Gen 2:8

The woman’s eating of the tree was in line with this principle, but in this particular instance her eating from the forbidden tree (apart from her desire for wisdom) also revealed something else. As a descendant of Adam, the woman had inherited a body of flesh, a body that desires what is contrary to the spirit (Gal 5:16). Her actions gave an indication of this as that ultimately caused the man to break the command given to him by God.

Normally Adam is the one that is charged/judged with the evil intent to deliberately disobey God in order to exercise his own authority over His. But since the woman ate of the tree first, did she do this with the evil intent to usurp God’s authority? After all, the devil did tell her that she would be “like God”?

The answer is NO. As Mark S remarked in his opening post, the man was a “true innocent,” and the woman probably more so (1 Tim 2:13). The biblical truth is that Adam and the woman had no knowledge of good and evil till AFTER the man ate. Gen 3:7, 3:22.

However, most believers choose to totally ignore this. They have been thoroughly indoctrinated into believing the notion that Adam deliberately and with evil, willful intent chose to disobey God so he could exercise his own authority over His. The Genesis account does not support this, but this falsehood is set in stone in the minds of many.

So I have some questions for those who support the above view:

Since God created man with a body of “sinful flesh,” as Paul calls it in Rom 8:3, a flesh that wars against the Spirit, did God realize that this would present man with an added burden, a stumbling block, in his ability to obey God?

Or was God unaware of this when He created man, and his disobedience made God’s plans of a good relationship with man take an unexpected course?

Was God like a bumbling, mad scientist who saw his creation take on an unexpected life of its own when it opposed his authority?


sonbeam

[keithareilly]

Ephesians 1:3-6
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Adam was predestined to do as he did before he was created, before the world was even created.
He was created in such a manner that he would behave as he did.
God made Adam knowing Adam would do exactly as he did and God planned for Adam to do what he did and for sin to enter the world and for Christ to die and for us to believe in Christ. All of this was planned from before the world was created, even before its foundation.


Keith