shorttribber wrote:These things can't be in an exact Time sequence as we think in Western Terms can they? You and I know...there will be a remainder of 3.5 years of future trib only (plus75 mysterious days) right? The two Witnesses Therefore MUST Begin at the Same Time as the Beginning of the AOD, right? That being the case, How is it possible for the two Witnesses to Begin their ministry Between trump 6 and Trump 7?
Shorty, I continue to be pleased with your responses - as they specifically address issues that many have been confused about. In saying that, I'm also not so sure I agree with what you have mentioned thus far, but your explanations as far as the way you believe...... well I understand why you have come to the conclusions that you have. I just can't completely agree at this point.
shorttribber wrote:Can you see how the Sequence is Absolutely Not in Exact order as we think with our Western Thought?.....The Vision is recorded in a Very Hebraic Manner, Folded or Weaved Over Itself....Seals 4-6 are LAID OVER Trumps 1-7.
This point my friend, needs to be reconciled with Scripture.
shorttribber wrote:The Traditional Prewrath Time Sequence you are clinging to Embraces the Seven Year Trib Idea...and there will not be a Seven Year Trib.
Yes, Shorty I am holding on to a Pre-Wrath view - however I don't know whether or not it is "Traditional" as you have mentioned. I have shown you in Scripture that the Pre-Wrath View is the correct view. Now, in mentioning that you and I both know that there is NOT a Seven Year Tribulation written ANYWHERE in Scripture.
The Book of Daniel mentions two very specific timeframes that need to be reconciled. So, together I am hoping that we can discover this mystery that has plagued many - even the very top Theologians.
First, as it relates to the
LAST DAY we need to look at what timeframes are provided to us:
Daniel 9:24-27 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah
24) “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25) So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26) Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27) And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
Now, I have embolden the 6 requirements that are to be fulfilled in this 70 week Timeframe that we are provided in Scripture. We know that at least one has been fulfilled - yet there are those that remain to be filled.
Question is...WHEN? My answer to that is AFTER He has destroyed the last enemy - which is Death, and He hands the Kingdom over to God the Father so that God may be ALL in ALL. That is the mission of the Son as further indicated in
1 Corinthians 15:20-28.
The Son's mission will not have been completed until AFTER He Reigns and has destroyed Death - which doesn't occur until after the "little season" Satan has been let loose from his prison to deceive the Nations AFTER His Millennial Reign.
Now, before I get ahead of myself - we have to reconcile Daniel 12 - the 3.5 years - and this mystery 75 Days that no one has seemed to have been able to factor into the parameters that have been set forth by Scripture.
Let's take a look at what Daniel 12 mentions - and factor it into what he mentioned earlier in Daniel 9:
Daniel 12:1-4 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Time of the End
1) “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3)Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4) But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”
Daniel 12:1-4 specifically mentions the time that we know as the very beginning of the A0D - and can be referenced to Matthew 24:21.
What is interesting here is that in Daniel 12:1-4 & Matthew 24:21 - which is mentioning the exact same time period we see no coming Antichrist mentioned. We do know that it is the "Tribulation" period beginning.
Now lets look further in Daniel 12:6-9
“How long will it be until the end of these wonders?” 7) I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. 8) As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” 9) He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.
In the aforementioned passage of Scripture we have Daniel asking "How long will it be until the end of these wonders?" So the question ALSO becomes "What Wonders?" Well, Daniel is given a time, times and half a time which we know is 3.5 years - and the wonders that are associated with this timeframe are the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24. However..... it goes on to mention "
and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people" -
ALL THESE EVENTS WILL BE COMPLETED.
So, based on the Scriptural evidence we are provided in Revelation 20 - which shows the Millennial Reign of Christ; Satan bound for 1,000 years; The "Little Season" Satan deceives the Nations after his release from prison; and the Final Rebellion.... could this include what is mentioned to Daniel when he is told "
and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people?I ask this because in the response to Daniel; in Daniel 12:7 the man dressed in linen also incudes the word "and" which means to include this specific time that they "finish shattering the power of the holy people". And this is also AFTER the man in linen mentions the 3.5 year timeframe given.
This leads up to this Verse in Daniel 12:11-13 - which has confused MANY:
8) As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” 9) He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. 10) Many will be purged,purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. 11) From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12) How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! 13) But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”
The aforementioned passage of Scripture casts reasonable DOUBT that we are not just looking at a 3.5 year period, as you and I currently believe. However, could this 75 Day period be referring to what the man dressed in linen referred to in that he stated: "and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people?"
Well, if this is true, then lets take another look at your Theory:
You have included this extra 75 days mentioned or at least a 45 day portion of Scripture in which you think God's Wrath is poured out. In our discussion, I have conceded that Christ's Ministry here on Earth possibly fulfilled 3.5 years of the remaining week of the 70 years. However, in looking at all of this as a whole, I believe that we still may be missing something.
Again, I find no evidence whatsoever that there is a 7 year Tribulation period - as a matter of fact, Scripture itself proves that theory incorrect.
Also, by your very own prior comments, your Short/Trib Theory "may" have to be re-visited. You have previously mentioned that the Saints will have to endure the entire 3.5 years in which the Antichrist is given power, and the Body of Christ is "protected". However, you give no explanation as to those who will have survived the Great Tribulation; have become saved during this time period; and will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth. Furthermore, your theory of Revelation 7 and the explanation thereof of has too many moving "parts" as it relates to the Bowls; Trumpets; and Seals - as I have not found a satisfactory answer as to why we see this "Multitude in Heaven" and the Great Tribulation is still going on - at least at this juncture. You also have produced this 45 days of Wrath being poured out by God on the Earth timeframe, and have mentioned that the Rapture will have occurred and an unknown time during this segment, but sometime AFTER the Great Tribulation. Again, thus far, I have found no evidence to support this.
In Closing............... the question(s) now becomes:
1) Do we still yet have a future FINAL week to look forward to?
2) Is the
LAST DAY actually the time that Christ Appears - and there is NO Millennial Kingdom?