Is Hell a place of eternal existence?

[Spreading Salt]

Mr. Baldy has brought up an interesting concept for me - annihilation.

Abiding even posted a link to someone who believes that souls in hell do not suffer forever, but have a sentence met out for them (depending upon the significance/importance of their sin). This is all my paraphrase of course but in essence the gist of what has been brought forward in the other thread seen here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=71946 Also, here is the link Abiding provided: http://www.wadeburleson.org/2014/12/ete ... fresh.html

Here are some scriptures to consider:

Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

II Thessalonians 1:9 “And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Mark 9:47-48 “”And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”

Revelation 20:10 “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Matthew 13:41-42 “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

I have never heard of such a concept before and think this thought process is in error, per the above mentioned scriptures. I think personally that people want to think hell is softer than the true reality. The Bible is pretty clear to me. Look at the phrases above: worm does not die, fire not quenched; tormented day and night forever and ever; eternal fire.

Any other thoughts?

SS

[Ready1]

I have never heard of such a concept before and think this thought process is in error, per the above mentioned scriptures. I think personally that people want to think hell is softer than the true reality. The Bible is pretty clear to me. Look at the phrases above: worm does not die, fire not quenched; tormented day and night forever and ever; eternal fire.

Any other thoughts?

I think that the annihilationists on this board will be happy to show you your error, SS.
I am in your camp (unless they change your mind....)

[Mr Baldy]

I have never heard of such a concept before and think this thought process is in error, per the above mentioned scriptures. I think personally that people want to think hell is softer than the true reality. The Bible is pretty clear to me. Look at the phrases above: worm does not die, fire not quenched; tormented day and night forever and ever; eternal fire.

Hi Spreading Salt,

First of all to answer your question.... Hell is NOT a place of eternal existence - for even it is cast into the Lake of Fire.

Here is what Revelation 20:14 says:

Then Death and Hades were case into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

I believe that it is necessary for you to understand that there is a difference between the "Lake of Fire" and "Hell/Hades".

To give you an example of Hell - well Jesus told the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. When they both died the Rich man went to Hell/Hades - which is described as a place of torment and where the worm dieth not. Many have made this mistake of believing this place - which according to Scripture is "temporary" - is one and the same as the Lake of Fire. Well it is NOT, as it is cast into the Lake of Fire, which is subsequently called the 2nd Death.

Believers will only die ONCE - unless they are alive at the Coming of Christ; then they will NEVER Die. Unbelievers will die Twice - hence the term "2nd Death" is mentioned. When Christ Returns the Sheep & Goats Judgment commences. Those who are ALIVE at His Coming are separated. The Righteous who are ALIVE and have not been resurrected (survivors of the Great Tribulation) will be allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies. Those Wicked who are ALIVE at His Coming will "go away into everlasting punishment". They will have died this one time - they "go away" to Hell/Hades to await the GWTJ. When they "brought to life" 1,000 years later, they are sentenced at the GWTJ. They will then be cast into the Lake of Fire to receive the "2nd Death".

You have mentioned several passages of Scripture:

Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Spreading Salt, one must have to understand that you cannot take a Highly Symbolic Book like the Book of Revelation in a "wooden literal sense". If you were to, then you would be seeing literal dragons, and 10 horned beast....etc.

In Revelation 14:11 - have you ever noticed that it plainly states: "the SMOKE of their torment" goes up forever and ever? When something burns the smoke goes up - it's GONE forever and ever. Also it mentions "they have no rest day and night" - well have you considered what that actually means? Again, you cannot take this in a "wooden literal sense". This is clearly metaphorical language to describe their demise. Of course "they have no rest day and night" - they're DEAD. They no longer exist.

II Thessalonians 1:9 “And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.”

The "key word" in the aforementioned passage of Scripture are the words: "eternal destruction". If this doesn't prove the finality of life, then I don't know what else does.

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Again we have the term "second death" - well in order to have a "second death" you will have had to die at least once. There is no Third death, or Fourth death - the "second death" is the FINAL DEATH. There is no more existence after this.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”

This is mentioned at the Sheep & Goats Judgment - where the wicked will depart to Hell/Hades which will later be cast into the Lake of Fire.


Now the aforementioned are just a few of the examples that you have provided. It amazes me that those who want to preach Hell Fire and Brimstone never want to consider other passages of Scripture that deal with the ETERNAL DESTRUCTION of the wicked. They want to preach this eternal tormenting in Hell nonsense - yet avoid other passages of Scripture that clearly indicate that the penalty for sin is DEATH. They further want to paint this picture of the Creator of being this UNJUST God who delights in the tormenting of the wicked - who never asked to be born; are only given a limited time on this planet; and commit sins because they have the very nature of sin. Well that is NOT the Creator I serve.

God is a Just God. He is a God of Love that does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked - and please don't mention the term "eternal tormenting" in Hell - as it makes NO SENSE. Stop telling folk this nonsense!

Yes, the wicked will perish. Yes there will be "stripes" that they will be beaten with. Yes there will be degrees of punishment and/or torment. But the degrees and levels of punishment that the wicked will receive will most certainly fit the level of sin(s) that they have committed. God is a Just God. Not this monster that some want to make Him out to be. At the end of the Day - the punishment will fit the crime (sin) - and ALL WICKED will eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire where it will ALL END.

I will respond later with Scripture that supports the DESTRUCTION of the Wicked, where they are left neither root or branch; and will be "ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous" - and further prove that ONLY God is Immortal, not wicked humans.

[Jericho]

I also agree that hell\hades is a temporary place. I see hell as akin to jail and the lake of fire as a prison. So once they are judged by God they go from jail to prison. I don't believe spiritual beings are capable of non-existence. Even the angels and fallen angels war in heaven (Rev 12:7-12), yet there is never any mention of casualties or death as we understand it. I see the second death as being eternal separation from God, and I don't see the lake of fire as cruel and unusual punishment, but in a roundabout way an act of mercy. I've already stated my position here: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=51902&p=570449&hilit=mercy#p570449, so I'll leave it at that.

[Spreading Salt]

Sorry about that folks. I meant to say the Lake of Fire and not Hell in the title of the post. I understand Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire after the Millennium reign of Christ and that the Lake of Fire is the second death per the definition of such in God's Word.

Jericho, I loved your response in the other thread you linked. I didn't realize that thread was there. Much reading ahead for me today. I too believe it is eternal separation from God and that souls are eternal.

[kirthril]

Revelation 20:10 “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”

This pretty much sums it up. Hell is temporary but the lake of fire is eternal. If annihilationism is real, then there is no need for a "eternal" fire. It would be "temporary" as the last of those consigned to it are destroyed. No use having a fire burn with nothing to burn.

Also Rev 20:10 states quite clearly, lake of fire... torment... day and night... forever and ever...

Jericho's analogy to a jail to court to supermax prison is one I always use.

[Abiding in His Word]

Here's another view for consideration.

*snips*

Christians throughout the centuries have disagreed on how God's justice is impartially displayed in the sentencing of individual sinners in hell. How is it just for Adolph Hitler to receive the same prison sentence of separation and isolation from God and people that a twelve-year-old boy who dies without Christ receives? Answers to this question vary:

However, I do believe that somehow, someway, eternal punishment in hell (which is never torture) will vary from sinner to sinner. Jesus said that the people of Tyre and Sidon would find their sentencing on the day of judgment "more tolerable" than the people of Sodom and Gomorrah (see Matthew 10:15). For the third time: The real hell is really holy. No mistakes of justice are ever made by God in His righteous and impartial sentencing of the wicked.

The Real Hell Is Really Holy

[Mr Baldy]

Revelation 20:10 “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.”

This pretty much sums it up. Hell is temporary but the lake of fire is eternal. If annihilationism is real, then there is no need for a "eternal" fire. It would be "temporary" as the last of those consigned to it are destroyed. No use having a fire burn with nothing to burn.

Also Rev 20:10 states quite clearly, lake of fire... torment... day and night... forever and ever...

Jericho's analogy to a jail to court to supermax prison is one I always use.

Again, one absolutely cannot take the Book of Revelation which is Highly symbolic in a "wooden literal sense" - as if this were possible it would make no sense at all. Scripture has to harmonize with other passages of Scripture.

The Lake of Fire is "ETERNAL" in the destructive results that it will bring - PEROID. It doesn't literally mean that it will be at some unspecified location continuously burning the wicked as the righteous enjoy eternal bliss. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever - and is furthermore contrary to Scripture.

In Revelation 21 & 22 - Scripture is very clear that "ALL things are made NEW"; the "FORMER THINGS" are no longer remembered - there will be NO NIGHT; there will be no SUN or MOON - NO Temple.

I don't know what else to say............... other than the previous link that discusses Annihilation provides examples of where Scripture is very clear about the total Destruction of the Wicked - and the fact that DEATH means DEATH.

[mark s]

Hmmmm . . . . woodenly literal . . . kind of a phrase that serves more for a pejorative use than to actually describe something.

I suppose that one could fault a "woodenly literal" interpretation when one concludes God has feathers, but to the eternal torment in the lake of fire? Seems to me like "guilty by association".

Symbols in the Revelation? Certainly. However, they are identified in Scripture as symbols, and the meaning of the symbols are given in Scripture. Think about it. It couldn't be any other way. Because if it weren't this way, then interpretations could not have Scriptural authority. Any time we don't like what it says, it's easy to say, oh, that's symbolic. But I would reply, show me where these are identified as symbols, and where the meanings of those symbols are given.

The exact same language . . . I'll say it again . . . the exact same language is used to describe the duration of the torment - not destruction, but torment - of the condemned in the lake of fire as is used to describe the duration of the "afterlife" with God for the redeemed.

One last thought I'd like to share. When you look at how "death" is used in the Bible, it does not refer to inactivity or cessation of existence. It refers to separation. Check it out.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[notworthcomparing]

I think we would all agree that God is eternal. One of many many verses:

Deuteronomy 33:27
"The eternal God is a dwelling place, And underneath are the everlasting arms; And He drove out the enemy from before you, And said, 'Destroy!'

We are not inherently born immortal. God is immortal.

Genesis 3:22-24 (NLT)

Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23 So the Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the Lord God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Those who are saved will once again be able to take from the tree of life, but this is not for those who are not unsealed.

Revelation 22 (NLT)

Then the angel showed me a river with the water of life, clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 It flowed down the center of the main street. On each side of the river grew a tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, with a fresh crop each month. The leaves were used for medicine to heal the nations

A clear plain reading of the word tells you the fate of the saved and for those who die in their sin. Perish means perish. Death means death. Not conscious tormented life.

The saved receive eternal life. The unsaved will perish (cease to exist).

John 3:16 (NLT)

“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:10

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Apparently not everyone will receive eternal life.

Matthew 19:16 (NLT)

Someone came to Jesus with this question: “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”

Revelation 19:19 through the end of chapter 20, a careful study of the order of things is helpful as well.

These are sent straight, do not pass go into the Abyss (satan is out for a bit, but he's back), without discussion.

1. The Beast and False Prophet are taken and thrown in the abyss forever
2. Satan is grabbed and put in for a thousand years
3. Satan is released for a short time
4. Armageddon
5. Satan is returned to the abyss forever

Judgement on everyone else, whose names are not written in the book of life. Judged at the white throne judgement. Their deeds against the perfect, holy white standard. They are judged according to their deeds. All have sinned, all come up short, all are thrown in the lake of burning sulfur.

If God is the righteous judge and each is judged according to their deeds, then how do they all have eternal conscious torment? From a little rainforest kid who didn't know, to Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot and Satan himself.

Eternal destruction means there is no Catholic purgatory where you suffer a while and then come out, it means you are destroyed and once destroyed it is an eternal/everlasting sentence. This is not some Rob Bell universalist, all roads lead to heaven and there is no hell. No hell is real and it is not something you want for 5 minutes or 500 millennia, but the judgement fits the crime. God is just. His judgements are right and true.

Read this non-exhaustive list of verses and take them at their clear plain meaning (when the plain sense, makes good sense, seek no other sense, lest you end up in non-sense).

Gen. 2:17; 3:19; 3:22; 6:5-7; 6:13; 6:17; 9:6; 19:13; 20:7; 38:7; Exod. 4:23; 12:15; 12:19; 19:12-13; 21:12; 21:14; 21:15; 12:16; 12:17; 21:12; 21:15; 21:16; 21:17; 21:29; 22:18; 22:19; 22:20; 22:22-24; 28:35; 30:33; 30:38; 31:14-15; 32:9-14; 32:27-28; 32:33; 32:35; 33:3; 33:5; 35:2; Lev. 17:4; 17:9; 17:14; 18:29; 19:8; 20:2; 20:5; 20:9; 20:10; 20:11; 20:12; 20:13; 20:15; 20:16; 20:17; 20:18; 20:27; 22:3; 22:9; 23:29-30; 24:16; 24:17; 24:21; 26:22; 26:30; 26:38; 27:29; Num. 1:51; 3:10; 3:38; 4:15; 4:19-20; 9:13; 14:35; 15:30-31; 15:35-36; 17:10; 17:13; 18:3; 18:7; 18:22; 18:32; 19:13; 19:20; 21:6; 26:10; 26:61; 26:65; 27:3; 32:13; 35:16-21; 35:30; 35:31; Deut. 2:15; 4:3; 4:26; 7:4; 7:10; 8:19-20; 9:8; 9:14; 9:19; 9:20; 9:25-26; 10:10; 11:17; 13:5; 13:9-10; 17:5; 17:7; 17:12; 18:20; 19:12; 21:21; 22:21-22; 22:24-25; 24:7; 24:16; 28:20; 28:22; 28:24; 28:45; 28:48; 28:51; 28:61; 28:63; 30:15; 30:18-19; 32:39; Josh. 1:18; 23:15-16; 1 Sam. 2:25; 2:33-34; 25:37-38; 2 Sam. 6:7; 12:13-14; 1 Kgs 14:10; 20:42; 21:21; 2 Kgs 9:8; 14:6; 1 Chron. 2:3; 10:13-14; 13:10; 2 Chron. 13:20; 25:4; Job 4:8-9; 27:8; 34:10-15; 36:5-12; Ps. 1:6; 2:12; 34:16; 34:21; 37:9; 37:20; 37:22; 37:28; 37:34; 37:38; 49:12; 55:23; 73:18; 73:27; 78:50; 82:6-7; 92:9; Prov. 2:22; 15:10; 19:9; 19:16; 21:28; Isa. 10:22-23; 11:4; 13:6; 14:22; 14:30; 27:1; 28:18; 28:22; 29:20; 34:3; 41:11; 47:11; 51:6; 53:8; 60:12; 65:15; 66:16; 66:24; Jer. 5:6; 11:21-22; 15:3; 21:8; 25:33; 28:16; 31:30; 44:7; Lam. 2:21; 3:43; Ezek. 3:18-20; 6:4-7; 14:13-21; 18:4; 18:13; 18:18-20; 18:24; 18:26; 18:31; 33:8-18; Hos. 8:4; 7:13; 10:15; 13:14; Obad. 1:10; Mic. 6:16; Zeph. 1:3; Matt. 3:10; 5:25-26; 7:13; 7:19; 7:26-27; 8:12-13; 10:29; 11:23; 15:4; 15:13; 16:25-26; 17:6; 18:34-35; 21:33-44; 22:7; 24:37-41; Mk 7:10; 8:35-37; 12:1-9; Lk. 3:9; 6:49; 9:24-25; 10:15; 12:20; 12:58-59; 13:1-5; 13:6-9; 14:34-35; 17:1-2; 17:23; 17:27; 19:27; 20:9-18; Jn 3:16; 3:35; 5:24; 6:50; 8:21; 8:24; 10:28; 12:25; 15:6; Acts 13:40-41; Rom. 1:32; 2:6-12; 5:12-14; 5:17-18; 6:16; 6:21; 6:23; 7:5; 8:6; 8:12-13; 9:27-29; 13:4; 1 Cor. 3:16-17; 10:1-12; 10:8-12; 2:15-16; 4:3; Phil. 3:19; 1 Thess. 5:3; 2 Thess. 2:8-10; 6:9; Heb. 3:12-17; 10:26-31; 10:39; 12:9; 12:25-27; Jas 1:9-11; 4:14-15; 5:5; 5:19-20; 1 Pet. 1:9; 1:24-25; 2 Pet. 2:1-4; 2:4-10; 2:12-13; 3:7; 1 Jn 2:15-17; 3:14; 5:11-13; Jude 1:5; 1:20-23; Rev. 2:7; 2:11; 2:26-28; 6:9-17; 11:19; 13:9-10; 14:18-20; 18:21; 19:21; 21:8.

The Rich Man and Lazarus story is a good one. In it we find the pre-crucifixion holding area "Hades", with a good side (Abraham's bosom) and the other. Between which was fixed a great chasm. Before the gift of Christ no one come come into the presence of God.

After His sacrifice, the captives in Abraham's bosom were released and were led into heaven. This is certainly a type of the churches emancipation on the day Christ brings us home.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (NIV)

8 This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

The unsaved dead have experienced the first death, the second death is coming. This the white throne judgement and the death that follows in Hell/Abyss.

Some will be given eternal life:

John 4:14 (NIV)

but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 5:21 (NIV)

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

John 6:51 (NIV)

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 10:28 (NIV)

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The greek idea that the body was bad and the spirit was good and immortal has satanically snuck it's way in. Another way the accuser brings deception. How many have said "How can God be good, if He would torment someone who didn't know in hell forever? If this is who God is, I don't want any part".

It matters, because it matters that we represent God's nature and word correctly to a God rejecting world.

For more in depth study I recommend the excellent studies and sermons on the subject by Dr. David Reagan or Dr. Edward William Fudge (The Fire that Consumes, Hell a Final Word).

[Resurrection Torchlight]

What do you all think of this passage and how it might relate to this topic?

1 Corinthians 15:35-50
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?”
36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Here are my thoughts:

if the dead are raised from their mortal state to an immortal state and if the perishable become imperishable, how can they ever be "destroyed" in the sense of no longer existing? The topic of the passage is the resurrection of the dead, Paul is correcting some within the Corinthian church who were denying the resurrection. Does this passage only apply to the righteous dead or to all who die?

I would suggest that it pertains to all men, because earlier Paul says:

1 Corinthians 15:20-22
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked:

Acts 24:14-15
14 “But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;
15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:25-29
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

To be resurrected, means that the immortal become immortal, that the perishable becomes imperishable, whether they are the righteous or the wicked. We have an excellent example of the wicked being raised to immortality in the Revelation :

Revelation 19:20
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Now if you look at 2 Thessalonians you will see that the beast AKA the lawless one is killed by the Lord upon His return:

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

Daniel tells us the same:

Daniel 7:11
11 “Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.

SO is there a contradiction in the Revelation when it says that the beast and false prophet are thrown ALIVE into the lake of fire? I think not, they are slain/destroyed in their natural mortal flesh and raised to their spiritual immortal body,that is how they are thrown alive into the lake of fire to be tormented continually forever.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Those who worship the beast receive the same fate:

Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Contrary to what the aforementioned passage indicates there are those who believe that the Lake of fire is annihalation of the wicked. But if ultimately the lake of fire means the end of existence for the wicked, then why would the wicked need to fear it? Why worry about the consequence of worshipping the beast, if it just means I cease to exist? That doesn't sound like something I would fear. If there is no punishment, then there is not anything for me to fear.

1 John 4:17-18
17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

RT

[Exit40]

Umm, I can't find a passage of Scripture to back this up, but I am certain a twelve year old boy in the forest who never heard of Christ will not receive the same punishment as Hitler and the antichrist. No doubt someone can find Scripture that states so, and proves our Father is not only a loving God, but a just God as well. I know Scripture states that at least, more proof is needed to satisfy our own desires for Him, of Him ? And furthermore, none of us gets to determine who God is and what it is He does according to our own judgments. He is who He is, and we accept it or we don't. To place a qualifier on Him in order for us to worship Him is taking on the spirit of antichrist ourselves. We simply don't get to do that. Rather, we don't get away with it.

I look at it this way, only those who are His are saved, all others are of satan, his children, and whatever punishment the Lord metes out for them is up to Him. Just as our eternal salvation is up to Him. None of His are lost to eternal fire, only the one anyway. So who can say whom a twelve year old is really. Not up to us to decide, only to accept His righteous judgment, for ourselves as well as others.

God Bless

David

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Just one more thought:

Hebrews 9:27
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Man is appointed to only "die" once, we know from scripture that the torment of those within the lake of fire goes on eternally. I would assume that the reason it is called the second "death" is because their immortal body is tormented as it is when they experience their mortal body's death.

Matthew 10:28
28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This cannot be speaking of a literal mortal body, but an immortal one, because mortal bodies are destroyed through the process of decay here on this earth.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Soul and (immortal) body are eternally destroyed- over and over eternally, now that is a punishment I would most certainly fear!

RT

[mark s]

You need to watch your definitions. Jesus told us what "eternal life" means. "this is eternal life, to know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent". It's not simply remaining eternally conscious.

Physical life is relationship with the body. Sever the relationship, life ends. But not the person. Restore the relationship, and life resumes.

Spiritual life is relationship with God. Sever the relationship, and spiritual life ends. But not the person. Restore the relationship, and life resumes.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Mark I am unsure if your comment was made for me or someone else I completely agree with what you said. But wonder if you are implying that the unsaved are not raised to an immortal state? Are you saying that they do not receive a spiritual body when they are resurrected? I would agree with what you have said. I am not just talking about eternal consciousness but that they receive an eternal body, just as believers do. They however do not enter into God's Kingdom to inherit eternal "life" but rather they inherit eternal condemnation, torment and punishment, in essence they are subject to a never ending death.

RT

[Mr Baldy]

I am not just talking about eternal consciousness but that they receive an eternal body, just as believers do. They however do not enter into God's Kingdom to inherit eternal "life" but rather they inherit eternal condemnation, torment and punishment, in essence they are subject to a never ending death.

Hi RT,

I personally have issues with the term "eternal consciousness" as it relates to the 2nd Death. Respectfully, please explain what you believe the "2nd Death" is - and why is there a need to have this term identified in Scripture.

Also, you have mentioned the term "never ending death" - which honestly, I feel is an oxymoron.

In closing, I really enjoy debating with you as you have shown an "open mind" and do your homework when it relates to Scripture. I also believe I have an open mind to a willingness to understanding as well. Hopefully, we can come to understand how to properly interpret Scripture as it relates to learning when to apply a"wooden literal" view of passages that are very plain to understand verses those that are symbolic and/or metaphorical in context.

I am looking forward to your explanation - as well as anyone else who believes that "Hell is a place of eternal existence" - which I wholeheartedly disagree with, and I hope to prove it over the next few weeks.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Thanks for your kind words, I have tried to explain from scripture my viewpoint, see above posts. If ALL are made alive in Christ, as scripture seems to indicate and ALL who are in the grave will be resurrected, and if I am correct in my handling of the passage in Corinthians (above) and all receive a "spiritual body" one that is "imperishable", then the only conclusion one can arrive at is that eternal punishment, means exactly that. It is torment for eternity. Those cast into the lake of fire have a physical eternal imperishable body. As I pointed out the false prophet and the beast are examples of those resurrected and thrown "ALIVE" into the lake of fire. And again if there is fear in punishment, annihilation does not seem to fit the bill. In fact many non believers believe exactly that and have no fear at all, if they just cease to exist, then hey " let's just eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die".... I have heard the unsaved say that.

Now perhaps I have it all wrong, and you can explain to me how you reconcile those passages with your view of annihalation?

As far as death being never ending being an "oxymoron" as you claim, The reason I used the term "never ending death" was just a way to describe what I feel happens as eternal punishment of the wicked. If they receive imperishable eternal bodies, then I would assume that their torment might be something like experiencing dying continuously, over and over, their immortal body will be tormented... only God knows exactly how, but the smoke of their burning goes up forever, sounds like having the flesh burned off your body, though they won't have "flesh" like our mortal bodies do, they will have flesh that is eternal and continuously feel the pain of its burning. That is what I mean by eternal death. Like I said though that is only an assumption on my part, and the comparison is just my way of explaining what I think it might be like.

The other thing is that we tend to view death from a human/mortal point of view. Death is more than just a physical experience that our mortal body undergoes, it is also a spiritual vehicle to transport the soul of the person who experiences it. It is also a tool of God used to bring rest to His people. In the revelation, death is described as a physical place that exists within the spiritual dimension: "Death" gives up its dead (Is that an oxymoron?) and "death" is cast into the lake of fire? There are souls in the place called "death". I would speculate that these souls are people who have just recently died and are on their way to Hades or Paradise???? Though I do not know for certain. But given the fact that many will have at that time just perished by the fire sent from God to devour them, I would say that it might be a fit. So If death is currently a place that has within it "souls",then the idea that there is a second death that is a place of eternal torment for the resurrected wicked to me is not at all out of line with scripture.

As Mark posted, if you can pick and choose which things are symbolic and which aren't then you can claim whatever you want. The Revelation explains what is symbolic, and some things we can glean symbolism from because other scripture speaks directly to them. But the "lake of fire" is a place that burns with fire and looks like a lake. When scripture says that those who take the mark will have no rest day or night, and that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, then I believe that it means exactly what it says, it is not symbolic. The smoke of their torment could not go on forever unless their torment also goes on forever. Also in Matthew when the goats are judged, they are told to go away into eternal fire, which is later described as eternal punishment, which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. That is not symbolic, it also is not Hades. It is in fact the lake of fire which is the place reserved for satan and his angels.

RT

[shorttribber]

i would just like to say that i personally hope that Mr B is right on this one.

i think there is strong support in the scriptures for either position.

i just know that God is All Merciful and Just. That's all i can truly say i know about the whole matter under discussion.

[Mr Baldy]

Hi RT,

I have to say that I am so frustrated right now after typing out a long rebuttal to your reply on my son's PC - because mine is broke, only to lose everything that I have wrote. Apparently his PC has issues as well.

Nevertheless, I will respond to this one thing that you have mentioned:

If ALL are made alive in Christ, as scripture seems to indicate and ALL who are in the grave will be resurrected, and if I am correct in my handling of the passage in Corinthians (above) and all receive a "spiritual body" one that is "imperishable", then the only conclusion one can arrive at is that eternal punishment, means exactly that. It is torment for eternity.

RT, your aforementioned statement is WRONG. I challenge you to re-read 1 Corinthians 15:22. This verse refers to those who are IN CHRIST only - not the wicked. And no where will you find in Scripture where the wicked ever receive a "spiritual body" that is "imperishable".

Secondly, after reading what you have commented on thus far - I pose this question to you:

What is the purpose of the GWTJ if the wicked dead are already in a place of torment (Hades)? I mean are you saying that God will resurrect them to perhaps "give them a brief break" only to cast them into the Lake of Fire to be tormented again? I mean why even take them out?

Now, before I lose this...........here are some verses of Scripture that clearly describe the demise of the wicked which appears to be Annihilation:

Malachi 4:1
Matthew 10:28
Job 20:5-7
Psalm 37:9-10
Psalm 145:20
Ezekiel 18:4

Before I lost all my information .... I actually brought up a few of the things you had mentioned, and clearly and properly refuted them with Scripture. I am so frustrated now for not saving it, that I have a headache.

However, I leave you with this thought: ONLY God is Immortal. He gives us the Gift of Eternal Life by receiving Him as Savior, and we will receive imperishable bodies at His Coming; at that point we become immortal - this absolutely cannot be said for the Wicked. Eternal Life is a Gift - not a Punishment.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Mr. Baldy, Sorry that you lost your post, I have had that happen a few times also, and it is very frustrating.

RT, your aforementioned statement is WRONG. I challenge you to re-read 1 Corinthians 15:22. This verse refers to those who are IN CHRIST only - not the wicked. And no where will you find in Scripture where the wicked ever receive a "spiritual body" that is "imperishable".

I will repost this verse:

1 Corinthians 15:20-22
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

The passage is pretty clear, as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. All die and all are made alive, if everyone who dies in Adam includes the wicked, which it does, then so too all are made alive. Since by a man came death so also by a man came the resurrection of the dead. The passage doesn't say that only those in Christ are made alive, it says that in Christ all are made alive, which would include the wicked.

Acts 24:14-15 and John 5:25-29 (see above post) both say that there is indeed a "resurrection" of both the righteous and the wicked. What do you think would be the purpose of resurrecting the wicked? If it isn't to receive an eternal body, then like you say, why bother? If Hades is cast into the lake of fire, why does it first have to "give up its dead" at all? If the status of the dead is not altered in some way? I mean the fact that they are in Hades demonstrates that they have already been deemed as unqualified for paradise and therefore they would be counted as the wicked. So why raise them at all? Just cast them with Hades into the lake of fire.

They are raised not to give them a reprieve, but to give them an eternal body, at least that is what I think, and obviously to be judged and subsequently punished.

In my opinion, the term "resurrection" implies that the soul of the dead, whether righteous or wicked, means that they are raised in order to receive a physical yet spiritual, eternal body and to receive either reward or punishment.

RT

[Mr Baldy]

Hi RT,

You seemed to have left out verse 23 - so I will post it again. But let me say that the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is specifically speaking of those IN CHRIST. The Resurrected Christ is our HOPE, in that we are promised to be like Him at His appearing. Now here it is again:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Order of Resurrection

20) But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21) For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, AFTER THAT those who are Christ’s at His Coming

Now the aforementioned passage of Scripture is clearly separating the SIN nature of Adam and our HOPE in Christ and His ETERNAL nature being the "First Fruits" of the resurrection. There is a very clear distinction. Here is more:

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43) it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44) it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47) The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48) As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49) Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

In closing RT, we have to take passages of Scripture in context. Scripture has to harmonize with other passages of Scripture. You have taken The resurrection of the wicked dead, and lumped them into the same resurrection as those who are Christ's - at His Coming. That is contrary to Scripture. Again, the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is clearly mentioning the resurrection of those who are IN CHRIST (as I have embolden in blue) and their hope IN CHRIST for the resurrection.

[Mr Baldy]

Just arrived at work...so I'm going to sneak in a few points before my day starts

What is the purpose of the GWTJ if the wicked dead are already in a place of torment (Hades)? I mean are you saying that God will resurrect them to perhaps "give them a brief break" only to cast them into the Lake of Fire to be tormented again? I mean why even take them out?

I have asked the aforementioned question to prove a point. You responded with this:

They are raised not to give them a reprieve, but to give them an eternal body, at least that is what I think, and obviously to be judged and subsequently punished.

I have to respectfully, and wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment. If they are in Hades, apparently they have a consciousness - as the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus demonstrates. Death and Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire because it is FINAL. Hence the term 2nd Death. Furthermore, you will find absolutely no Scriptural evidence that the wicked are ever given "an eternal body".

RT God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked - so for them to roast and be tormented in an eternal Lake of Fire makes no sense whatsoever.

Ezekiel 33:11 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?

Also take a look at this verse that I mentioned earlier:

Malachi 4:1 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Final Admonition

"For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”

So, how can the wicked have "an eternal body"?

Finally this: Isaiah 65:17

New Heavens and a New Earth

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

So when it is ALL finished - when Christ has destroyed the last enemy which is death, He hands over the Kingdom to God the Father so that God may be ALL in ALL. The former things will NOT be remembered nor come to mind. IT's OVER.

God is a JUST God....... the punishment will fit the crime.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Mr Baldy, Ugh... remember that frustration you felt about losing your post....argh....I just did the same thing, fortunately I hadn't gotten very far so I think I am okay to redo, so here goes...

You wrote:

You seemed to have left out verse 23 - so I will post it again. But let me say that the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 is specifically speaking of those IN CHRIST. The Resurrected Christ is our HOPE, in that we are promised to be like Him at His appearing.

Well Actually in context verse 23 comes after the passages I was referring to. In the first nine verses Paul is addressing the Corinthians regarding some who did not believe there was a resurrection of the dead, he does not identify anything in regard to whether they are disbelieving a resurrection of the righteous or wicked or both. Paul tells them if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ Himself is not raised and that if that is so then they have believed in vain. He then says this:

1 Corinthians 15:19
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Notice Paul says that we of "ALL MEN" are most to be pitied, "ALL MEN" would be referring to all people. Then He goes on to make a comparison, that just like "ALL" men die "in Adam" , so the same is true ...that "in Christ", "ALL" men are made alive. The "ALL" who die in Adam includes both righteous and wicked, you cannot separate the wicked out from the "All" who are made alive in Christ, all means all, both righteous and wicked, that is one of the points of the comparison. If something is true in the first part of the comparison, then the same has to be true of what is being compared to it.

1 Corinthians 15:42-45
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

The dead are the dead, everyone dies, the righteous and the wicked. Every one who dies has a perishable physical body, everyone who dies is raised as an imperishable body. Paul makes no distinction of "the dead" who are resurrected, other than to say that there are variations in "glory" for different types of "bodies". Which is another comparison by the way, he talks about the differences in glory between the celestial bodies, and says, "so also is the resurrection of the dead". Therefore there are varying degrees of "glory" for those who are resurrected from the dead. We know that some celestial bodies shine because they produce their own source of light, like the Sun and other stars, while others shine because they reflect the light of other celestial bodies that are in close proximity to those that produce light, like the moon. The righteous will produce their own light, which is the Glory of Christ shining forth from them.

Daniel 12:3
3 “Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Revelation 3:5
5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 7:9
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

The word for "white" in these passages means shining with brilliant light in the Greek!

I would guess that when the wicked are raised, their eternal body will reflect the light of the righteous while in their presence, but when they are cast into the lake of fire, they will no longer do so.

You make a distinction

separating the SIN nature of Adam and our HOPE in Christ and His ETERNAL nature

according to this verse:

“The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

I see no contradiction, Christ raises all from the dead, both the righteous and the wicked, the last Adam (Christ) became a life giving spirit. He gives life in that He raises the dead to an eternal existence. Now I don't need to remind you about context, as you have already done so, but the context is primarily speaking toward the fact that there is a resurrection of the dead. And as I have already shown, scripture tells us that there is a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. The Revelation bears this out as well. Yes, for us as believers that means HOPE for Eternal life, but for the wicked it means fear of eternal condemnation. Paul does not make the distinction that you are making.

All men bare the image of the earthly or a natural perishable body and all men will bare the image of the heavenly or a spiritual imperishable (eternal) body.


One of the verses that you claim supports your view, I see as evidence for mine:

Matthew 10:28
28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

How can someone fear having their "body" destroyed in hell, if they don't have one???

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

RT God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked - so for them to roast and be tormented in an eternal Lake of Fire makes no sense whatsoever.

Ezekiel 33:11 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?

Of course God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. He wants them to repent and choose eternal life. I do not see how this even relates to the resurrection? This death is referring to the death of one's physical body. One of the reasons for the resurrection of the wicked as the passage above indicates is because God is just and the wicked will pay the penalty for their disobedience. It is fair that God rewards those who believe and punishes those who don't.

Also take a look at this verse that I mentioned earlier:

Malachi 4:1 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Final Admonition

"For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”

So, how can the wicked have "an eternal body"?

Again I do not see how this relates, evildoers will be set ablaze (eternally), that is completely in line with my claim. They will not have any root or branch: means that they will no longer have any earthly descendants, none will survive as mortals, all the arrogant and evildoers are condemned to this fate. They will have no ancestors to remember them and no progeny to carry on their lineage.

Finally this: Isaiah 65:17

New Heavens and a New Earth

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

So when it is ALL finished - when Christ has destroyed the last enemy which is death, He hands over the Kingdom to God the Father so that God may be ALL in ALL. The former things will NOT be remembered nor come to mind. IT's OVER.

Again I do not see a contradiction here, God will create a new heavens and a new earth:

Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

It appears that the lake of fire is part of the new heavens, notice how it is described AFTER the old heaven and earth flee and there is no longer a place found for them, basically they cease to exist (now that's an annihilation I can agree to). Those who are part of the kingdom will no longer remember the former things, I have no problem believing that either.

God is a JUST God....... the punishment will fit the crime.

I couldn't agree more.

Psalm 81:15
15 “Those who hate the Lord would pretend obedience to Him,
And their time of punishment would be forever.

RT

[Sanderson]

Hi RT,
I have to say that I am so frustrated right now after typing out a long rebuttal to your reply on my son's PC - because mine is broke, only to lose everything that I have wrote. Apparently his PC has issues as well.

Mr Baldy, Ugh... remember that frustration you felt about losing your post....argh....I just did the same thing, fortunately I hadn't gotten very far so I think I am okay to redo, so here goes...

Off topic, but have ya'll tried the Lazarus extension? It is a form recovery extension that I have used on both Firefox and Chrome that will recover what you have typed on a page in case of a crash.

Quote from the Chrome extension page:

Autosaves everything you type so you can easily recover from form-killing timeouts, crashes and network errors.

Ever had one of those “oh $*#@” moments when you've finally finished filling out a long form, and hit submit only to see an error message? And when you hit the back button, the form was blank... If so, you know you need Lazarus. And if not, you have a chance to install Lazarus before disaster strikes!

I've used it for years and it has saved me many headaches.

[Mr Baldy]

In the first nine verses Paul is addressing the Corinthians regarding some who did not believe there was a resurrection of the dead, he does not identify anything in regard to whether they are disbelieving a resurrection of the righteous or wicked or both. Paul tells them if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ Himself is not raised and that if that is so then they have believed in vain.

Yes RT, I agree.....after all Jesus did say if He be lifted up then He will draw all men unto Himself. But we have to take what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15 into context. He is definitely referring to believers when he mentions, and addresses the Order of Resurrections, and those who are IN Christ.

Ezekiel 33:11 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?

Of course God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked. He wants them to repent and choose eternal life. I do not see how this even relates to the resurrection? This death is referring to the death of one's physical body. One of the reasons for the resurrection of the wicked as the passage above indicates is because God is just and the wicked will pay the penalty for their disobedience. It is fair that God rewards those who believe and punishes those who don't.

This absolutely relates to the Resurrection - after all we are debating ALL that may relate to the topic of this thread. The point I was trying to make about God not taking pleasure in the death of the wicked - is because if He takes no pleasure in it, how can anyone dare say that the wicked will receive an "ongoing" torturous punishing in the Lake of Fire. It's just a ridiculous notion to believe such nonsense.

It appears that the lake of fire is part of the new heavens, notice how it is described AFTER the old heaven and earth flee and there is no longer a place found for them, basically they cease to exist (now that's an annihilation I can agree to).

I wholeheartedly disagree that the Lake Of Fire is a part of the New Heavens. God plainly stated that He makes ALL Things New. You would have to say this in order to prove your point, and make your position on what you believe make sense - but as my country friends say.... "That dog won't hunt"

In closing, as I consider how other believers may think about hell being an eternal place of existence - the question comes to my mind: What part of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION don't they get? What part of ETERNAL PUNISHMENT don't they get? The penalty for sin is DEATH. What part of the WICKED WILL BE NO LONGER don't they get? What part of the WICKED WILL CEASE TO EXIST don't they get? After all most want to paint this picture of this ANGRY God sitting on His Throne; having this long white beard just plain MAD. They believe they live this sanctified life, when in all actuality it is very hypocritical in nature - well I say get over yourselves.

God is a JUST God - He is LOVING, Slow to Anger; Kind; Long Suffering - this is the God I serve. I ask those who believe in a God who will torture the wicked throughout eternity please prove to me the justification in that? I mean if we are all in Eternity enjoying what God has prepared for us what sense does it make for the wicked to be burning in the Lake of Fire - let's say a trillion years later? I mean what would be the POINT?

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Mr. Baldy,

When scripture says that God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked it is speaking of their physical death. The passage tells us why, because God would rather they repent and be saved, He does not take pleasure in knowing that their refusal to do so means that they will be punished eternally. God is just, He has warned all men what the consequences of disobedience are, He does not take joy in handing them over to judgement and eternal punishment. It is just like our own children, when we warn them of the consequences of their wrong actions, and they disobey anyway, the consequence stands. We do not take pleasure in it, we are sorrowful that they did the wrong thing instead of choosing what is right. That is what the passage is saying about God. He does not take pleasure in the physical death of the wicked because He knows what the eternal consequences are for them and because He is just, they will have to pay for their disobedience. Just because the passage says that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, does not mean that He won't still render justice and sentence them rightly to their eternal destiny, which is the Lake of fire in which they are eternally destroyed.

After all most want to paint this picture of this ANGRY God sitting on His Throne; having this long white beard just plain MAD. They believe they live this sanctified life, when in all actuality it is very hypocritical in nature - well I say get over yourselves.
God is a JUST God - He is LOVING, Slow to Anger; Kind; Long Suffering - this is the God I serve.

Are you are calling me a hypocrite???
Both things are true about God, He is loving and long suffering, He is slow to anger, but it doesn't say He is without anger entirely, He is equally loving and just. Sinners must pay the consequence of disobedience, it is that simple. BY the way, I got over myself a long time ago, and it isn't about us, it is about the nature of a Just God.

Colossians 3:24-25
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
25 For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

I ask those who believe in a God who will torture the wicked throughout eternity please prove to me the justification in that? I mean if we are all in Eternity enjoying what God has prepared for us what sense does it make for the wicked to be burning in the Lake of Fire - let's say a trillion years later? I mean what would be the POINT?

First of all I do not believe that God Himself will be doing the punishing, secondly the point is justice, that is the consequence of rebellion against God, it is an extremely severe punishment, and should serve as a huge deterrent for those who would continue in their rebellion, but sadly it doesn't. People just do not believe in the truth of the Gospel and I think at least for some, the belief in annihilation plays into their continued rebellion.


You mention how some of what I claim is an oxymoron to you, and you ask what part of eternal destruction and punishment don't people like me get? To me it is an oxymoron to use the terms annihilation and eternal punishment in the same sentence. A punishment that is eternal, never ends, just like a reward that is eternal never ends. Forever is well....forever!

Yes I agree that Paul was talking to believers in 1 Corinthians, Yes the resurrection for the believer means hope, but that is not what Paul is concentrating on in the passage, the topic being discussed was whether or not there is a resurrection of the dead, Paul does not say that he is only talking about the righteous, though that is what is pertinent to the church so He stresses that to them. The wicked are also resurrected as scripture shows, and I have posted those scriptures throughout this thread. Do you deny that the wicked will be resurrected?

As for the lake of fire, clearly the passage that speaks of it shows its existence after the destruction of the "Old" heavens and earth, therefore it cannot be destroyed when they are and must coexist in time (for eternity) with the new heavens and earth. However the place of its existence is unknown to us, and I would guess that it will exist in some other dimension away from the new heavens and earth and the presence of God somewhere in the "outer darkness" wherever that might be, which in and of itself might be a "new" creation.



RT

[mark s]

Is there anything more to be said on this topic that hasn't already been said?

[Mr Baldy]

Are you are calling me a hypocrite???

NO, no, no and a thousand times NO RT.......

I was just simply trying to explain how most view God in their own self-righteousness, when in reality we are all hypocrites to a certain degree. It was not a personal attack. Some feel that since they are living a Christian Life - and most not for the true love of God, it's out of fear - so they preach stories of Hell Fire & Brimstone to scare the living daylights out of folk with the very topic we are debating.

You mention how some of what I claim is an oxymoron to you, and you ask what part of eternal destruction and punishment don't people like me get? To me it is an oxymoron to use the terms annihilation and eternal punishment in the same sentence. A punishment that is eternal, never ends, just like a reward that is eternal never ends. Forever is well....forever!

Yes, it would be - however you seemed to have left out the idiom DEATH as it relates to the topic. I think the problem here is not understanding DEATH as it relates to the Lake of Fire - subsequently called the 2nd Death. Nor, as it appears, is the term "eternal destruction" understood. Eternal Destruction IS Annihilation in the truest from of the word - there is nothing left, it is DESTROYED. The Punishment, which is DEATH is ETERNAL.

Yes I agree that Paul was talking to believers in 1 Corinthians, Yes the resurrection for the believer means hope, but that is not what Paul is concentrating on in the passage, the topic being discussed was whether or not there is a resurrection of the dead, Paul does not say that he is only talking about the righteous, though that is what is pertinent to the church so He stresses that to them. The wicked are also resurrected as scripture shows, and I have posted those scriptures throughout this thread. Do you deny that the wicked will be resurrected?

RT of course I do not deny that the wicked will be resurrected. In your aforementioned statement, you agree that Paul is talking to the believers concerning the resurrection - however you go on to say that: "but that is not what Paul is concentrating on". Well of course he was; here is some of the very verbiage he used - which exclusively concentrates on the righteous:

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43) it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44) it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47) The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48) As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; AND as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49) Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

The embolden words in BLUE relate to the righteous - so Paul was clearly concentrating on the Righteous as it relates to the resurrection.

As for the lake of fire, clearly the passage that speaks of it shows its existence after the destruction of the "Old" heavens and earth, therefore it cannot be destroyed when they are and must coexist in time (for eternity) with the new heavens and earth. However the place of its existence is unknown to us, and I would guess that it will exist in some other dimension away from the new heavens and earth and the presence of God somewhere in the "outer darkness" wherever that might be, which in and of itself might be a "new" creation.

Hummmm, what an interesting thought. However, Revelation 21 - when properly taken in context appears to refute your aforementioned comments. (I wish I could leave this page to post it, but I'm working at home on my son's PC - crash issues). What I believe you are referring to is Revelation 21:8. Yes, it does "REFER" to the Lake of Fire; however, there is absolutely no evidence to show that it still exists - as God Himself plainly states: "The former things have passed away." (Revelation 21: 4) He further states: "It is done!" (Revelation 21:6) in the previous verses - so it can't be both ways.

Off topic, but have ya'll tried the Lazarus extension? It is a form recovery extension that I have used on both Firefox and Chrome that will recover what you have typed on a page in case of a crash.

Thanks for the info Sanderson - I will definitely have to look into the "Lazarus" extension.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Is there anything more to be said on this topic that hasn't already been said?

I think I have exhausted the topic myself. Or the topic has exhausted me. One way or the other I think I have said all I can say. Thanks for the lively debate Mr Baldy. It is apparent that we shall continue to agree to disagree.

Others may carry on as they wish.

RT

[GodsStudent]

kind of a phrase that serves more for a pejorative use than to actually describe something.

Pejorative. I have fallen in love with this word. It's my word of the week. I dont regularly have a word of the week, but I do this week. Pejorative. I looked it up and then wrote it down and taped it to my desk so I could look at it over and over again. I used it in a business letter, and in secret, hoped the recipient had to look it up, just like I did. I am literally in love with my "new word."