Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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shorttribber wrote:That's so much to cover Mr. B.It may be best to start a thread on each subject.
Daniel 12:1-4 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Time of the End
1) “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3) Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4) But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase
25) Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27) and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
35) Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36) But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37) All that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38) For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the LAST DAY.
40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the LAST DAY.
The Glorious Return
29) “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed
25) Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26) For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27) and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28) Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29) and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Tares among Wheat
24) Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25) But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26) But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27) The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28) And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29) But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30) Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.
40) So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41) The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42) and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43) Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
shorttribber wrote:That's why I believe that "The Day of the Lord" will Commence Again at the Start Day of the Final 3.5 years (Great Trib)When the Future AOD Begins, so does the "Day of the Lord/Last Day".....The "Last Day" actually being 1,000 years Long (Possibly...IF there remains a Literal 1,000 year reign)
Zechariah 14:1-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
1) Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2) For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3) Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4) In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5) You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! 6) In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7) For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. 8) And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.
9) And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.
16) Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17) And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18) If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19) This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
The Judgment
31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
2 Peter 3:10 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10) But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
Judgment at the Throne of God
11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the Second Death, the Lake of Fire. 15) And if ]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire.
shorttribber wrote:Notice this part though too "an hour is coming and now is "
That Hour/Day of the Lord WAS Also In the Past....At Christ's FIRST Parousia.
shorttribber wrote:Again, I think mostly we are in agreement, potential agreement. There is something you've not addressed regarding that Day/Hour though, and that part Also makes that "Day/Hour" all the more "Unique".
shorttribber wrote:His first Coming was Part of "That Day/That Hour" His Entire 3.5 year ministry was Part of That Day. And it is my belief that His Ministry By His Spirit, Given in His Full Measure to Bring the Saints in to the Full Measure and Stature of Christ will be Included in the Final 3.5.And the ENTIRE Final 3.5 will Also be a Part of "That Day"
Isaiah 61:1-2 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; 2) To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord And the day of vengeance of our God
Luke 4:18-21 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18) “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed, 19) To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”
20) And He closed the Book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21) And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
Daniel 12:11-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11) From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12) How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!
Mr Baldy wrote:Now the question becomes: When Jesus entered the Synagogue on this particular day - which we know was a Sabbath as mentioned in Luke 4:16; did His Public Ministry began at that point - AND did His Public Ministry begin the 70th Week?
shorttribber wrote:His Entire 3.5 year ministry was Part of That Day. And it is my belief that His Ministry By His Spirit, Given in His Full Measure to Bring the Saints in to the Full Measure and Stature of Christ will be Included in the Final 3.5.And the ENTIRE Final 3.5 will Also be a Part of "That Day"
shorttribber wrote:The best understanding, and most consistant with scripture is that The First Day of the Seventieth Week began at the Baptism of Christ. That is the clearest timing Christ is mentioned as receiving His Anointing to Minister (by the Holy Spirit)
Mr Baldy wrote:What say ye?
Mr Baldy wrote:Our Gathering unto Him can occur anytime AFTER the A0D.
Mr Baldy wrote:................and the requirements of Revelation 7:9 - the "Great Multitude" which no one could number standing before the Throne of the Lamb.
Mr Baldy wrote:First - Peter had mentioned the Day of the Lord as a future event in 2 Peter 3:10. This was AFTER Christ was crucified and AFTER His Resurrection. Second - Paul plainly mentions "Our Gathering unto Him" and "The Day of the Lord" as future as well in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.
Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>
The aforementioned mentions the Millennial Kingdom - and the worship that will be required. What is not mentioned is that these mortals - both Jew and Gentile are Judged at the Sheep & Goats Judgment that happens on the LAST DAY.
Let's take a look at: Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)The Judgment
31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ 41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
If you'll notice the Wicked DEAD are not mentioned - as there has been no resurrection for them YET. Those wicked who are ALIVE at His Coming and who "go away into eternal punishment" at this Sheep & Goats Judgment will be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years - which by the way is still considered the LAST DAY. They will receive the penalty of the 2ND DEATH at the GWTJ.
<snip>
Jay Ross wrote:I wonder if the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats is a reflection or expansion of the Ezekiel 34:17.
It comes after God has separated the flock from the other flock. i.e. those that CALL him LORD and those that do not Call Him Lord. Which is then followed by the separation of the Rams from the He Goats of those who call God, Lord. The Sheep are the righteous while the He Goats are the unrighteous ones who have a Hellenistic approach to their relationship with God where they are still self centered even though they acknowledge that God is the Lord.
Oh well, this is the final judgement when the righteous receive/inherit the whole earth and live with an in relationship with God.
It is the final act at the end of the Millennium Age such that the inheritance happens in the everlasting Age of Eternity.
<snip>
and shows that there are two times when God separates out people from each other.Ezekiel 34:17 “As for you, my flock, thus says the Lord God: Behold, I judge between sheep/{flock} and sheep/{flock}, between rams and male goats.
is dependent on when you believe that the Matthew 25:31-46 parable occurs which in turn is dependent on when you believe that Christ comes in all of His Glory on the Clouds with all of the hosts of heaven. From what you have written, you believe that Christ's "second coming" will occur at the beginning of the Millennium Age. Sadly, this is not the case based on a proper study of scripture.If you'll notice the Wicked DEAD are not mentioned - as there has been no resurrection for them YET. Those wicked who are ALIVE at His Coming and who "go away into eternal punishment" at this Sheep & Goats Judgment will be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years - which by the way is still considered the LAST DAY. They will receive the penalty of the 2ND DEATH at the GWTJ.
Isaiah 24:21-22
21
On that day the Lord will punish
the {wicked fallen}*host of heaven, in heaven,
and the kings of the earth, on the earth.
22
They will be gathered together
as prisoners in a pit;
they will be shut up in a prison,
and after many days they will be punished.
* - My addition to the passage quoted based on a word study of "Host"
shorttribber wrote:You're mostly right I think, with very few exceptions. Remember the words of Christ.....He said that Hour Was/Now Is and Is Yet to come, regarding that.....ie that Hour Was Occurring during his first Visitation/Appearing, and would Occur Also in the Future.
Mr Baldy wrote:However, I believe that the 70th week has been split in order for Prophecy to be Fulfilled in God's timing. Certain events had to take place in it's proper order. Jesus's 3.5 year Public Ministry; His Crucifixion; and His subsequent Resurrection was a part of the 70th week (as you have mentioned) - however, the Day of the Lord and/or the LAST DAY will close out the Final 3.5 years. This means that the LAST DAY is quite different than the "Last Week" as far as relational dynamics pertaining to the requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24.
Mr Baldy wrote:
Our Gathering unto Him can occur anytime AFTER the A0D.
shorttribber wrote:We are told in many places that the "Saints/Elect" will indeed endure the Entire 3.5 years of Great Trib.
21) For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22) Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Jay Ross wrote:Mr Baldy, in the What you think (About news) section in the Britain votes to leave EU in historic vote
Jay Ross wrote:In the first separation, the first flock, i.e. all the people who do not call God Lord, is separated from the second flock, i.e. all the people who do call God Lord. The first flock is judged and punished while the second flock of those who call God/Jesus Lord is separated into a flock of Rams and into a flock of male goats. The Matthew 25:31-46 parable is describing what occurs during the second separation and what the final outcome will be of Ezekiel 34:17.
Jay Ross wrote: From what you have written, you believe that Christ's "second coming" will occur at the beginning of the Millennium Age. Sadly, this is not the case based on a proper study of scripture.
Matthew 25:31-33 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Judgment
31) “But when the Son of Man COMES in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Isaiah 24:21-22 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
21) So it will happen in that day,That the Lord will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth. 22) They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.
Matthew 25:41-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mr Baldy wrote:Even the way you have described it shows that you believe that the 70th week is split as well. However, His first "Visitation/Appearing" could not have been the LAST DAY - yet is a part of the 70th week.
Mr Baldy wrote:I agree with that. I was looking at "Our Gathering unto Him" from a Pre-Wrath perspective. In that Matthew 24:21-22 reads this:
shorttribber wrote:Why , specifically do you believe that His First Visitation could not have been a Portion of the "Last Day"?I just see no reason to reject that idea entirely. What are your reasons, specifically?
1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to The Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect That The Day of the Lord has come.
39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the LAST DAY. 40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the LAST DAY.”
shorttribber wrote:Math 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.What Days will be "THOSE DAYS"? We both know Mr. B., they are "Those Days" spoken of in Daniel 12 (Primarily), just as Christ said.But Mr. B., we have discussed this in part already...."Those Days" are 1,335 days in length.....and they will be Shortened for the Elect. If we endure the full 3.5, then the days will be shortened by 75, and if we endure till the 1,290 then they will still be shortened by 45 days.As I said, Any Day During that 75 day period, we should be delivered before God's Wrath is poured out.
Matthew 24:29-31 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Glorious Return
29) “But immediately after the Tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the SIGN of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other
Mr Baldy wrote: however the 70th week in itself does not denote the LAST DAY, so in essence the LAST DAY has not occurred yet - as the 70th week is not complete.
Mr Baldy wrote:2) The LAST DAY is synonymous with the Day of the Lord
Mr Baldy wrote: I will concede that Jesus fulfilled the first 3.5 years of the 70th week
Mr Baldy wrote: in the 1,260 days as Daniel 12 first mentions "A time, times, and half a time" - which is equivalent to 3.5 years (1,260 days)? This is the specific time that the Church is persecuted - there is no "shortening" of days in this 3.5 year period for the Church.
Mr Baldy wrote:Now, the question becomes if the Church is to be Raptured out anytime during this 75 Day period - what is the purpose of the "Blessing" mentioned for those who "waits, and comes to day 1,335"? I mean who are we speaking of here? Are these the folk who will become saved and allowed into the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies?
Mr Baldy wrote:If you are suggesting that when the "Sign" appears in the sky - which is "Immediately AFTER" the Tribulation period; that God's Wrath is poured out for 75 Days - as it does not mention specifically when Jesus actually Returns - then I think I get your meaning.
Jay Ross wrote:Mr. baldy, you can flippantly dismiss what I post by stating, "Jay Ross you have a very "different" way of interpreting Scripture."
Jay Ross wrote: The Matthew 25:31-46 parable is describing what occurs during the second separation
Jay Ross wrote:As such, the Matthew 25:31-46 parable occurs at the very end of the Millennium Age and is in fact a part of the Great White Throne Judgement that occurs as the last act of the Millennium Age.
shorttribber wrote:Would you say and agree that when Christ's Kingdom Comes, the "Last Day" Also arrives Together?
shorttribber wrote:Because we All, the Whole Body of God's Elect Has been, Are presently, and Will Wait until That 1335th Day.....We All receive Our Rewards Together, All of us Together as Christ's Wrath is poured out on the Ungodly who have Defied Him throughout All History! At that Final Day, we All become Triumphant With God and Share in His Eternal Victory...We All Are Blessed Together on That Final Day of God's Wrath.
Mr Baldy wrote:Now, that makes A LOT of sense to me! I have never quite looked at it that way. Shorty, I actually appreciate you mentioning that. I will add that to my study! Thanks brother!
Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:Would you say and agree that when Christ's Kingdom Comes, the "Last Day" Also arrives Together?
Mr B. writes:ABSOLUTELY!
Mr Baldy wrote:Jay Ross wrote:Mr. baldy, you can flippantly dismiss what I post by stating, "Jay Ross you have a very "different" way of interpreting Scripture."
Jay Ross, I want to point something out to you that you wrote, and I know is in error according to Scripture:Jay Ross wrote: The Matthew 25:31-46 parable is describing what occurs during the second separation
And this:Jay Ross wrote:As such, the Matthew 25:31-46 parable occurs at the very end of the Millennium Age and is in fact a part of the Great White Throne Judgement that occurs as the last act of the Millennium Age.
Jay Ross - I challenge you to show me anywhere in Scripture where the Sheep & Goats Judgment - where the Righteous Living are "Separated" from the Unrighteous Living are either "a part of the Great White Throne Judgment or is one and the same as the GWTJ. Again, the Sheep and Goats Judgment occurs AT HIS Coming. This is in contrast to the GWTJ which happens at the END of the Millennial Kingdom.
Scripture is quite clear that these are TWO very Separate Judgments. You won't find anywhere that there is a Separation of the Righteous and Unrighteous at the GWTJ. The GWTJ further is for the WICKED DEAD only!
In closing, it's not that I am being "flippant" about your interpretation - it's just that I cannot not find it to be supported with Scripture.
Mr Baldy wrote:
however the 70th week in itself does not denote the LAST DAY, so in essence the LAST DAY has not occurred yet - as the 70th week is not complete.
shorttribber wrote:I agree again in part. You are correct, the 70th week is Not the "Last Day" and the "Last Day" is not the 70th week. But I hope to show, as best as I can, that the 70th week is Part of the "Last Day".
shorttribber wrote:Rev 12 - 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Is this not very clear that "The Kingdom of God" Is Clearly Described as Present DURING the Great Trib? Not At the End of It? Not Only During it, But at the Very Beginning of it?
Jay Ross wrote:Mr. Baldy, I have been looking for scripture that supports your understanding for over 20 years but it does not exist.
Jay Ross wrote:But this may be simply too much for you to understand.
Mr Baldy wrote:My challenge relates to your response - in that it has everything to do with the timing of the "accuser" being cast down.
Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>
One of the main errors you possess in your understanding is that you cannot, nor have you ever explained how you can have a Millennial Kingdom with only those who have been Resurrected to eternal life - then have a subsequent GWTJ 1,000 years later. There would be no point for this. There is either a Millennial Kingdom in which those are given to repopulate the Earth in mortal bodies - or there is NOT a Millennial Kingdom, and it ALL Ends at His Appearing. You can't have it both ways.
<snip>
shorttribber wrote:Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Is this not very clear that "The Kingdom of God" Is Clearly Described as Present DURING the Great Trib? Not At the End of It? Not Only During it, But at the Very Beginning of it?
shorttribber wrote:Would you say and agree that when Christ's Kingdom Comes, the "Last Day" Also arrives Together?
shorttribber wrote:Remember the words of Christ.....He said that Hour Was/Now Is and Is Yet to come, regarding that.....ie that Hour Was Occurring during his first Visitation/Appearing, and would Occur Also in the Future.
Daniel 9:24 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Seventy Weeks and the Messiah
“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city:
1) To finish the transgression,
2) To make an end of sin
3) To make atonement for iniquity
4) To bring in everlasting righteousness
5) To seal up vision and prophecy
6) To anoint the most holy place.
Mr Baldy wrote:Ok, I see how you connected the timing of Christ's first visitation with Revelation 12:10 and the verbiage mentioned in the Scriptures you presented thereof - and I have considered your argument. However, I disagree with it being a "portion" as you have mentioned of the LAST DAY. What it is at best is a "portion" of the 70th week.
Mr Baldy wrote:My position is that the LAST DAY occurs as the Millennial Kingdom begins.
Mr Baldy wrote:My position is that the LAST DAY occurs as the Millennial Kingdom begins. Now let me explain as this goes back to the 6 requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24:
Mr Baldy wrote:Now, Christ's baptism may have been the beginning of the 70th week - or the day He entered the Synagogue and began His Public Ministry (Luke 4:16-21). This in itself does not indicate that it is the LAST DAY.
Mr Baldy wrote: I have conceded as previously mentioned that I believe that His Public Ministry did begin the 70th week - however this would only fulfil the first 3 of the 6 requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24; subsequently making it still very much a part of the 70th week - and NOT synonymous with the LAST DAY.
Mr Baldy wrote:As far as what you have provided in Revelation 12:10 - this too I believe as far as it mentioning "the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come" - is metaphorical language to illustrate what WILL happen on the LAST DAY.
Mr Baldy wrote:The LAST DAY begins at His Coming.
Jay Ross wrote:Mr. Baldy, you indeed have not understood my position at all.
Jay Ross wrote:During the Millennium Age, right from its beginning, the fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and Satan have their ability to have influence over the people of the earth stopped.
Jay Ross wrote: Christ as the Son of Man is given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth who should worship Him.
Matthew 28:18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18) And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Jay Ross wrote: All the living people on the face of the earth enter into the Millennium Kingdom of Christ, both the righteous and the unrighteous.
Jay Ross wrote: The start of the Millennium Age does not herald the "Second Coming of Christ" when the Sheep are separated from the Goats.
Revelation 19:11-21 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Coming of Christ
11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12) His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13) He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14) And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15) From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16) And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” 17) Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in mid heaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18) so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” 19) And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
Doom of the Beast and False Prophet
20) And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21) And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20:1-6 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Satan Bound
1) Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain [in his hand. 2) And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3) and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. 4) Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Matthew 25:31-46 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Judgment
31) But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’41) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Jay Ross wrote: In Ezekiel 34:17 we are told of a separation of the flock who call Jesus/God Lord from the flock who do not call Jesus/God Lord.
Jay Ross wrote: This initial separation of one flock from the other flock occurs at the end of the Millennium age just before the Sheep and Goat Judgement.
Jay Ross wrote:Then the second separation of the flock of sheep from the flock of Goats will occur.
Jay Ross wrote:Mr Baldy, you have Christ's Second coming on the Clouds happening at the beginning of the Millennium Age whereas I have Christ's Second coming in the Clouds with all of the righteous heavenly hosts at the end of the Millennium Age.
Mr Baldy wrote:
The LAST DAY begins at His Coming.
shorttribber wrote:Again, there is not any scriptures I know of that require that timing.
39) This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the LAST DAY. 40) For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the LAST DAY.”
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
1)Now we request you, brethren, with regard to The Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that The Day of the Lord has come.
Mr Baldy wrote:First Jesus plainly states over and over that He will "raise up" His Sheep on the LAST DAY.
Mr Baldy wrote:The Coming of the Lord and our Gathering together to HIM - happens on the same DAY. Jesus plainly says that HE will raise us up on the THE LAST DAY
Mr Baldy wrote:Jay Ross wrote:Mr. Baldy, you indeed have not understood my position at all.
Hi Jay Ross,
<snip>Jay Ross wrote: Christ as the Son of Man is given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth who should worship Him.
This has ALREADY been completed:Matthew 28:18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
18) And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Daniel 7:11-14: - 11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.
NKJV
Mr Baldy wrote:Jay Ross wrote: All the living people on the face of the earth enter into the Millennium Kingdom of Christ, both the righteous and the unrighteous.
You are absolutely WRONG here - and furthermore, I would like any Scriptural evidence you can provide to support this.Jay Ross wrote: The start of the Millennium Age does not herald the "Second Coming of Christ" when the Sheep are separated from the Goats.
Again, you are WRONG. Revelation 19:11-21 clearly shows what happens prior to the Millennial Kingdom:
<snip>
The aforementioned passages of Scripture Clearly describe what will happen AT HIS COMING. This is PRIOR to His Millennial Reign.
Mr Baldy wrote:Furthermore this is what Revelation 20:1-6 states:
<snip>
Matthew 25:31-46 works in harmony with the aforementioned passages of Scripture in Revelation:
<snip>
This is the Sheep & Goats Judgment - that CLEARLY occurs AT HIS COMING - and/or at the very onset of His Millennial Kingdom.
Mr Baldy wrote:I cannot for the life of me understand why you continue not to see this. NONE of the WICKED alive or dead are allowed to enter into the Millennial Kingdom. There will be those alive who become saved during the Great Tribulation will be allowed to enter into mortal bodies - however they are SAVED. They are those nations that survived as mentioned in Zechariah 14:16. So the Millennial Kingdom will only consist of the Righteous - at least until those in mortal bodies begin to have offspring.
Mr Baldy wrote:Jay Ross wrote: In Ezekiel 34:17 we are told of a separation of the flock who call Jesus/God Lord from the flock who do not call Jesus/God Lord.
Jay Ross - Ezekiel 34:17 was a "foreshadow" of what is to come as depicted in Matthew 25:31 - which happens AT HIS COMING.Jay Ross wrote: This initial separation of one flock from the other flock occurs at the end of the Millennium age just before the Sheep and Goat Judgement.
You will find NO such Judgment at the end of the Millennial Age - if so, please prove it. Scripture is clear that the GWTJ occurs at the END of the Millennial Kingdom and ONLY the WICKED DEAD are present. There is absolutely no separation mentioned there at all.Jay Ross wrote:Then the second separation of the flock of sheep from the flock of Goats will occur.
AGAIN, you will find NO WHERE in Scripture that shows where there are Two Separations between the Sheep & Goats.
Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>
In closing, you have provided a WHOLE lot of your thoughts and ideas - which I respect, but greatly disagree with - and only one passage of Scripture in which you base your interpretation on - that being Ezekiel 34:17. I would be careful about trying to build and entire doctrine on one part of Scripture, which by the way I feel you have not interpreted correctly.
In the end: Please BACK UP what you are saying with SCRIPTURE.
Ephesians 6:12 – For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
NKJV
Mr Baldy wrote:
First Jesus plainly states over and over that He will "raise up" His Sheep on the LAST DAY.
shorttribber wrote:Ok, does it say that the resurrection will occur on the First Day (24 hour day as we know it) OF the "Last Day" (1,000 year Long Day)?No, is does not.
Mr Baldy wrote:
The Coming of the Lord and our Gathering together to HIM - happens on the same DAY. Jesus plainly says that HE will raise us up on the THE LAST DAY
shorttribber wrote:Yes I agree that the coming and gathering occur on the "Last Day". What the scripture does not say is that the Physical Coming of Christ and our Gathering Together to Him in the Clouds will occur or Must occur on the "First Day" (in the 24 Hour realm we live in) OF the Last Day (1,000 Year Day of the Lord).
shorttribber wrote:The Uniqueness of the "Last Day" is such that it is not essential that the things you're suggesting Must occur on the Very First Day or the Very Beginning of the "Last Day/Day of the Lord".
1 Corinthians 15:20-28 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Last Enemy Destroyed
20) But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21) For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24) Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25) For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26) The last enemy that will be destroyed is DEATH. 27) For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28) Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be ALL in ALL.
2 Peter 3:8 - King James Version (KJV)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
shorttribber wrote:As I said, I will be putting some notes together that help to show that the "Day of the Lord" did in fact Include the First Part of the 70th week, at Christ's First Appearance. And that the great trib will in Fact be a Part Of the "Last Day/Day of the Lord".
shorttribber wrote:It truly is a conversation I'm enjoying, and I believe you feel the same.
Jay Ross wrote:I agree with you, there will not be two judgements of the Sheep and the Goats, but Christ’s account of this judgement can only occur at the end of the millennium Age when Christ comes on the clouds. Daniel 12 also tells us that this will occur.
Revelation 20:11-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great White Throne Judgment
11) Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12) And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14) Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15) And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Daniel 12:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Prophecy of the End Time
1) “At that time Michael shall stand up,The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3) Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
Jay Ross wrote:Shalom
Mr Baldy wrote:This Final Week as it relates to the LAST DAY is actually TWO 3.5 year timeframes or 1,260 days each bringing it to a total of 2,520 days. This 2,520 day period = 7 years with each year equaling 360 days.
Mr Baldy wrote:Now, according to the 6 requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24 - as I have mentioned previously three of the six have been fulfilled - and the remaining requirement (4-6) will not be completed until He has REIGNED and destroyed the last enemy - which is DEATH.
Mr Baldy wrote:So.....the LAST DAY is day 2,520.
Mr Baldy wrote:The "UNIQUENESS" of this day is that it will last for 1,000 years, without it being counted as a 24 hour period as we know it. Meaning it doesn't start over as if it were day one of the Millennial Kingdom - as it is the DAY OF THE LORD. A single continuous time period....it is the LAST DAY.
Mr Baldy wrote:After all Peter plainly stated that a day with the Lord is as a 1,000 years.
Mr Baldy wrote:Therefore your point about the things I have mentioned occurring on the "First Day or the Very Beginning of the LAST DAY - SHOULD provide the answer to your question.
Mr Baldy wrote:I'm looking forward to it!
shorttribber wrote:It truly is a conversation I'm enjoying, and I believe you feel the same.
Mr. B. : ABSOLUTELY!
shorttribber wrote:Mr. B., Have you had the time to consider my last post on this subject? Does the several texts in my last post not show that Christ's earthly ministry occurred in "That Day"? Whenever we see "That Day" mentioned in Isaiah and among all the other prophets it is always consistent with "The Day of the Lord"; "That Day" that is not a 24 hour "Day", but One Day that has Many Aspects and Unique Characteristics pertaining to Time and Events. There is more that I need to add, but I would appreciate your thoughts on my last post so far.
Mr Baldy wrote:Do you believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom where Christ will literally Reign for 1,000 years?
Mr Baldy wrote:
Do you believe in a literal Millennial Kingdom where Christ will literally Reign for 1,000 years?
shorttribber wrote:I'm uncertain either way Mr B. There are many reasons to see it as non literal...and just as many reasons to see it as literal...just don't know.
shorttribber wrote:Have you had the time to consider my last post on this subject? Does the several texts in my last post not show that Christ's earthly ministry occurred in "That Day"? Whenever we see "That Day" mentioned in Isaiah and among all the other prophets it is always consistent with "The Day of the Lord"; "That Day" that is not a 24 hour "Day", but One Day that has Many Aspects and Unique Characteristics pertaining to Time and Events.
2 Peter 3:10 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the Earth and its works will be burned up.
Mr Baldy wrote:Now the Day of the Lord and the LAST DAY are synonymous - however, we both know that the Earth will NOT be burned up at the Coming of Christ - which occurs on the LAST DAY AND is also the Day of the Lord. So there is a time span that covers a of sequence of events during this UNIQUE DAY.
Mr Baldy wrote:If Christ's Earthly Ministry is a part of the LAST DAY - then you would have to totally rule out a literal Millennial Kingdom
Mr Baldy wrote:I also remember that you thought the Sheep & Goats Judgment was a "Parable." Well, if you are correct, then you cannot possibly believe in a literal 1,000 year Reign of Christ - and it would ALL End when He Appears.
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