Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Okay Morpheus, just whipped this up for you, I hope it helps shed some light on where I am coming from:
*note- In this sequence the effects of the seals/trumpets/bowls as described as happening upon the earth in the book of Revelation begin to occur on earth at the time the specific seal is removed, or the trumpet sounded or the bowl poured.
Seals 1-4 have been removed by Christ and their effects happen on the earth throughout the church age, increasing in intensity as the 70th week draws closer (Birth pains).
Seal 5- the resurrection of the dead in Christ
Seal 6- the rapture of those who are alive in Christ
Seal 7- (Silence in heaven for about a half hour) The first half of the “hour of testing” or the first three and a half years of the 70th week. The antichrist confirms the covenant to start the 70th week clock, the false prophet steps onto the prophetic stage, also at this time I believe the ministry of the 2 witnesses begins, and the 144,000 are sealed during this time. The Jews will also reinstitute temple sacrifices of some kind and a temple will be built in Jerusalem. Many people will be saved, both the 144,000 and gentiles as well. But the great deception will also deceive many.
*The scroll represents the great tribulation, primarily the last half of the 70th week, and on it are written the plagues of the trumpets and bowls.
Trumpets 1-4 are sounded their effects begin to occur on earth just before the middle of the week.
Trumpet 5- the first woe- the bottomless pit opened, stinging demonic locusts torment men on earth, for five months, I believe this will also begin just before the middle of the 70th week and continue for five months.
Trumpet 6- the second woe- the four angels released, I believe these angelic beings are the supernatural counterpart of the 200 million man army on earth. They go on to kill 1/3 of mankind. I believe these are the tribulation saints who will be killed. Again this army is roused just before the 7th trumpet sounds, and continues to pursue the saints throughout the last half of the 70th week.
Seven thunders- I believe this is when the fullness of the gentiles occurs. All those gentiles who will be saved during the first half of the 70th week will have been at this time. Just before authority is granted to the “beast to overcome them”. I also believe that towards the end of this time, the battle between Micheal and his angels and the dragon and his angels begins.
Trumpet 7- the third woe- the seventh trumpet begins with a broad overview giving more details about what has and will transpire in order to fulfill prophecy. It begins at the end, looking forward to Christ’s reign on earth and how Christ will destroy those who destroy the earth and reward His bondservants.
John sees the ark of the covenant appear in the heavenly tabernacle, which is opened to receive it. I believe that it could be the actual Ark of the Covenant that God will catch up but it may also symbolize or happen coincident with the resurrection of the two witnesses. Who will be killed by the antichrist just before the AOD.
The sign of the woman giving birth to a son, in my opinion is symbolic of Christ’s resurrection as the head of the male child, and includes the resurrection/rapture of His body the church. The child both head and body are caught up into heaven.
Satan and his angels are cast to earth, and those who will have been saved during the first will be persecuted by the beast and his armies, while the “woman” flees to safety in the wilderness. The woman I believe is the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel.
At this time the mark of the beast will be enforced, the final gentile kingdom will rule, and the world will worship the antichrist and the dragon.
In Chapter 14 John sees more about what will transpire. He sees the Lamb standing with the 144,000 on earth at Mt. Zion, in Jerusalem, victorious and singing the new song of the kingdom age.
He sees the reapers, Jesus who will reap the lives of the tribulation saints, and the angels who reap the evil ones and throw them into the winepress to be tread under foot. This I believe looks forward to the battle at Armageddon.
John sees the angels in heaven who have the final 7 plagues
Then He sees another future event, (Rev 15:2) the resurrection of the tribulation saints, those who will be killed by the Antichrist because they did not take the mark, this is still part of the overview John sees at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.
Then finally he sees the temple in heaven is opened, the overview is finished and John is about to describe the next series of plagues that will befall the earth. The reason I say the overview is finished here is because he has seen the last of the events of the 70th week, the handing over of the kingdom to the saints, which happens after the tribulation saints are resurrected. We know that this actually occurs later in the sequence of events as described in Revelation 20:4 (see below).
Bowls 1- 6 are poured out on the earth. I would suggest that these events happen over a short period of time, weeks maybe a month at most. The antichrist and false prophet gather together armies to fight the final battle against the Lamb.
Bowl 7- It is done- the greatest earthquake ever, happens, 100 pound hailstones fall from the sky, mystery Babylon is destroyed. The sky is opened and Jesus returns to destroy those gathered against Him at Armageddon. The beast (Antichrist) and false prophet are seized and cast into the lake of fire. Satan is bound and the tribulation saints are resurrected.
The millennial reign of Christ begins.
RT
Wouldn't this mean two raptures/resurrections for believers? I don't think that's biblical. Sure you are placing the rapture at Seal 6, but also during the days/weeks of the 7th trumpet before the Bowls of Gods wrath are poured out. As far as I know, unless I am wrong, there is only one gathering of the dead and alive unto Christ. What you have posted is pre-trib AND pre-wrath both happening. (unless im reading you wrong)
The difference between me and RT is you put Seals 1-4 as church history while I see them as the overall layout of the 7ish year period of the AC's rule.
1. he rises
2. War follows him
3. what follows war? Economic misery for the nations invaded
4. What comes with war and famine? Death
5. Who does the AC eventually turn his attention to? The saints, those that hold to the Covenant.
6. Gods wrath is poured out.
Reread Daniel and you will see the AC, the King of the north follows this exact pattern in Daniel 11:21-45. He rises, goes to war, economic misery/famine naturally follows wartorn nations, he invades many nations, death to those who oppose, during his war with Egypt he also turns his attention to Israel and Christianity. The AoD happens and persecution ensues. Eventually he comes to his end. Seals 1-6 are right there in Daniel 11:21-45.
This is why I see the Seals as a general overall view of the 7 years. And as why I see the trumpets as the judgements which befall the earth as the seals are opened. The 6th seal Gods wrath, comes in the form of the 7 angels carrying "the bowls of Gods Wrath, clearly labeled as so.
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Also RT I don't know if you realized it but you posted something that agrees with my point:
I also want to address the idea that the rapture takes place when the last of the trumpets sound because it is the "last" trumpet.
Revelation 8:2
2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
Revelation 8:6
6 And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.
The dead in Christ are not raised to the tune of an angel sounding a trumpet, but are raised by the call of Jesus, who speaks with a trumpet voice.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
This is exactly what I mentioned in a previous post. At the 7th trumpet (which announces the bowls of Gods wrath), the FINAL trumpet, Jesus comes and descends with a shout, sends his angels to the 4 corners to gather his elect. Is Jesus the final trumpet, sure he can be, but he can also announce his call with a trumpet after the 7th angel blows his. Either way it is the final trumpet upon which the rapture, the only rapture takes place.
We go up, Gods wrath comes down. 6th seal, 7th trumpet, 7 bowls is all talking about the same time period. Remember this:
In the days when the 7th trumpet is about to sound, the mystery of God will be completed.
What mystery?:
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed
It is the mystery that the whole world has been asking since they forgot who God is. Does he exist? And they will get that answer in the days of the 7th trumpet. That is why after the 7th trumpet blows, Jesus shows himself to the world, the 6th seal is opened and the bowls of his wrath are poured out... the world moans and wails, "HIDE US from the FACE of the ONE who sits on the THRONE". This is why Jesus said that in that day the hearts of men will fail them in fear of what is to come. It is because at the 6th seal, after the 7th trumpet...
They... can... see... him...
As Morpheous stated, their order of writing in Revelation is not necessarily mean the order that they take place. They can be simultaneous, but for the sake of clarity and to not to confuse, God separated these things in johns vision to understand what is going on better. The trumpets and bowls are sequential, yes, but the seals overlap the entire 7 year period.
Seals: Grand events
Trumpets: Judgements
Bowls: Wrath
Hope this helps