Sixth Seal Rapture

[Keeping Alert]

Just throwing out a question here...

If the rapture happens at the sixth seal and there is a seven years tribulation and we are pre-tribulationists, what are the first five seals?

[Ready1]

...if you have bought into a sixth seal rapture, then you have a question that must be answered.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I subscribe to a sixth seal rapture view. My opinion is that the seals have already been removed.

The scene in Chapter 4 of the revelation to me depicts Christ (the Lamb that was slain) appearing in heaven standing before the throne, He is handed the scroll with 7 seals and then begins to remove them. Many, well most folks see this event as something that happens in the future, but I tend to believe that it is actually an event from John's past, Christ's ascension into heaven after His death and resurrection, it is the initiation of the new covenant era.

The seals correspond to the colored horses and their riders. There are similar agents mentioned in the book of Zechariah, who were sent out into the world to appease God's wrath. They affected geopolitical realities on the earth. It is my contention that under the new covenant, after Christ assumed His heavenly throne, that these spiritual agents submitted to Christ's authority and He sent them out after initiating the New Covenant.

I believe the fifth and sixth seal have not yet been removed, they would represent the resurrection of the dead in Christ and those who are raptured respectively. Which would be followed by a 7 year "tribulation". The scroll itself represents the 70th week of Daniel.

I am fairly confident with my view on this topic and can fully back it up with scripture , if you like I can elaborate when I have more time.

RT

[Keeping Alert]

I am fairly confident with my view on this topic and can fully back it up with scripture , if you like I can elaborate when I have more time.

Thanks RT Yup, I posted this question because I know you and mark s believe in the 6th seal rapture (with a slight variation)... and since I am beginning to believe in the 6th seal rapture too (I think you replied to my E=mc2 thread), I am wondering what to do with the first 5 seals...

Why would you think the 5th seal is yet to be opened? Aren't there also many martyrs throughout the ages?

[Spreading Salt]

I don't know when the Rapture will occur, but I too believe the next seal to open is the 6th. Stephen was the first martyr of the 5th seal and there are millions already who have been martyred since his death.

[mark s]

In a nutshell, I think the seals are all opened at once, probably in the same amount of time that it takes to read the passage, and the 70th week begins with the opening of the 7th seal.

I think the first 4 seals set the political, sociological, economical, and ecological conditions which will persist throughout the 70th week, each being a culmination of the birth pains of Matthew 24. Each of these will become completely hostile to mankind.

I think the 5th seal signals a return to a Jewish dispensation, with "your brothers" is referring to their fellow Jews, who will then be persecuted. I think the "souls under the altar" are the OT faithful, who died under the first covenant.

I think the sixth seal is the close of the gentile dispensation which was begun with "He shall pour out His Spirit upon all flesh", that is, not just on the Jews. And with the closing of that dispensation, our catching away.

Next, 144,000 Jews are sealed. God will always have His witness upon the earth. And when they are removed halfway through the week, angels flying through the sky take over.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Why would you think the 5th seal is yet to be opened? Aren't there also many martyrs throughout the ages?

To explain let's first look at the passage:

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

John sees souls under the heavenly altar of incense, it is an important point, that these are "souls" of the dead; believers who were martyred for their faith. They do not yet possess their glorified resurrected bodies. John hears them crying out to the Lord for His vengeance upon those who took their lives. In my opinion these souls reside in paradise, which is "underneath" the altar, in some level of the heavenly realm,under the floor of the heavenly temple. That John only sees and hears from the martyrs does not negate the idea that other believer's souls are present also. I believe the effect of the seal is that these souls, are shown to be receiving "white robes", these robes represent their glorified bodies, therefore In my opinion what John is witnessing is in fact the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which would include these martyred for their faith throughout the age of grace. They receive their "robes" and are instructed to wait a little while longer until the number of their fellow servants who will also die as martyrs would also be completed. Those fellow servants would be what we call the tribulation martyrs.

RT

[mark s]

One thing I could mention is that Paul wrote to the Colossian church that we are hid with Christ in God.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

In a nutshell, I think the seals are all opened at once, probably in the same amount of time that it takes to read the passage, and the 70th week begins with the opening of the 7th seal.

I think the first 4 seals set the political, sociological, economical, and ecological conditions which will persist throughout the 70th week, each being a culmination of the birth pains of Matthew 24. Each of these will become completely hostile to mankind.

I think the 5th seal signals a return to a Jewish dispensation, with "your brothers" is referring to their fellow Jews, who will then be persecuted. I think the "souls under the altar" are the OT faithful, who died under the first covenant.

I think the sixth seal is the close of the gentile dispensation which was begun with "He shall pour out His Spirit upon all flesh", that is, not just on the Jews. And with the closing of that dispensation, our catching away.

Next, 144,000 Jews are sealed. God will always have His witness upon the earth. And when they are removed halfway through the week, angels flying through the sky take over.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Mark and I agree on many things, for instance we both agree that the 70th week begins at the opening of the 7th seal. However I tend to think that the fifth seal regards those in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile that have died during the church age under the New Covenant, rather than the OT faithful.

I also believe that the fullness of the gentiles will actually occur at the sounding of the seven thunders, which is an event of the seventieth week that is often overlooked.

Revelation 10:1-7
1 I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire;
2 and he had in his hand a little book which was open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left on the land;
3 and he cried out with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; and when he had cried out, the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices.
4 When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them.”
5 Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven,
6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer,
7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.

We do not and cannot know exactly what the seven peals of thunder utter when they sound from the strong angel, John is told not to record what they say. But we do know what they pertain to because verse 7 tells us. They refer to the mystery of God being finished, the mystery that He preached to His prophets. The question is what it the "mystery of God"?

I believe that it is in fact the gospel of salvation to the gentiles.

Romans 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

Romans 1:1-5
1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

Colossians 1:24-28
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.
25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28 We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ.

Colossians 2:1-3
1 For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Laodicea, and for all those who have not personally seen my face,
2 that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself,
3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Ephesians 3:1-11
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—
2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;
3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,[/u]
5 [u]which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;
10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.
11 This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,

So just before the seventh trumpet sounds, the "mystery of God is finished".

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I believe that there are two sides to the "thunder" coin so to speak: On one hand you have the fullness of the gentiles, on the other you have the re-grafting of the nation of Israel into the olive tree. (See Romans 11:13-27).

When the trumpets begin to sound the 144,000 will have all been sealed, I believe this occurs during the first half of the 70th week, I think Mark would agree on that point. But also during that same time frame , many more gentiles will come to Christ. Especially after the rapture happens, many who had heard about these events I believe will realize what has happened and that they will be saved along with the 144,000. While those from the nation of Israel who are "sealed" will be protected during the second half of the week, those gentiles who come to Christ will die as martyrs ( See Revelation 12:17, 13:7-8). I tend to believe that the third of mankind that is killed by the plague of the 6th trumpet armies, are in fact the tribulation saints (See Revelation 9:20 -21) who will refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die as martyrs .

So as the nation of Israel is beginning to turn back to God and are finding Christ, the last of the gentiles will be brought to faith. One era coming to an end and another era's groundwork being laid at the same time.

RT

[Keeping Alert]

Thank you RT, Mark for your most enlightening inputs. Surely good food for thought

[Keeping Alert]

Mark, just wondering about your view that that the seals are opened quickly... do you think we will know the seals are opening before we are caught up at the 6th?

Also, if the souls under the altar are the OT faithful, what do you make of the account in Matthew 27:52,53 that says "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Also, if the souls under the altar are the OT faithful, what do you make of the account in Matthew 27:52,53 that says "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

I know you were asking Mark this question, but I will take a stab at it.

I think that these "saints" were brought back to life, to live again in their fleshly bodies, like Lazarus was. Presumably they would live out their lives and then would die (again).

Hebrews 11:35
35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;

RT

[Keeping Alert]

Thanks RT. It does give me a new angle to look at things.

Could I clarify something you posted?

John sees souls under the heavenly altar of incense, it is an important point, that these are "souls" of the dead; believers who were martyred for their faith. They do not yet possess their glorified resurrected bodies. John hears them crying out to the Lord for His vengeance upon those who took their lives. In my opinion these souls reside in paradise, which is "underneath" the altar, in some level of the heavenly realm,under the floor of the heavenly temple. That John only sees and hears from the martyrs does not negate the idea that other believer's souls are present also. I believe the effect of the seal is that these souls, are shown to be receiving "white robes", these robes represent their glorified bodies, therefore In my opinion what John is witnessing is in fact the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which would include these martyred for their faith throughout the age of grace. They receive their "robes" and are instructed to wait a little while longer until the number of their fellow servants who will also die as martyrs would also be completed. Those fellow servants would be what we call the tribulation martyrs.

After they receive their robes which signifies their resurrection in Christ, where do they go to wait? I thought the dead in Christ would rise first and then we who are alive would be caught up in the air to meet our Lord Jesus Christ?

[mark s]

Mark, just wondering about your view that that the seals are opened quickly... do you think we will know the seals are opening before we are caught up at the 6th?

Also, if the souls under the altar are the OT faithful, what do you make of the account in Matthew 27:52,53 that says "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Would 24 be many?

[mark s]

If I remember rightly, the traditional history was that there were quite a few of them, and they ascended when Jesus did.

[mark s]

Mark, just wondering about your view that that the seals are opened quickly... do you think we will know the seals are opening before we are caught up at the 6th?

Also, if the souls under the altar are the OT faithful, what do you make of the account in Matthew 27:52,53 that says "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

We may see the effects of the 6th seal, as far as I know. I don't thing the effects of the others will be instantaneously noticeable.

[mark s]

Also, if the souls under the altar are the OT faithful, what do you make of the account in Matthew 27:52,53 that says "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

More specific to your question, I don't see that one precludes the other.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Thanks RT. It does give me a new angle to look at things.

Could I clarify something you posted?

John sees souls under the heavenly altar of incense, it is an important point, that these are "souls" of the dead; believers who were martyred for their faith. They do not yet possess their glorified resurrected bodies. John hears them crying out to the Lord for His vengeance upon those who took their lives. In my opinion these souls reside in paradise, which is "underneath" the altar, in some level of the heavenly realm,under the floor of the heavenly temple. That John only sees and hears from the martyrs does not negate the idea that other believer's souls are present also. I believe the effect of the seal is that these souls, are shown to be receiving "white robes", these robes represent their glorified bodies, therefore In my opinion what John is witnessing is in fact the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which would include these martyred for their faith throughout the age of grace. They receive their "robes" and are instructed to wait a little while longer until the number of their fellow servants who will also die as martyrs would also be completed. Those fellow servants would be what we call the tribulation martyrs.

After they receive their robes which signifies their resurrection in Christ, where do they go to wait? I thought the dead in Christ would rise first and then we who are alive would be caught up in the air to meet our Lord Jesus Christ?

My version says that they are told to "rest" a while longer. Remember that they ask a question;

“How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

They rest in anticipation of their number being completed, so that God can avenge their blood. It isn't so much about where they wait as it is what they are to wait for. I believe they would be resurrected into the heavenly tabernacle, to stand before the throne with those multitudes who are raptured. They rest in God's assurance that He will soon bring His vengeance upon those who dwell on the earth which will happen when their fellow brethren are martyred for their faith:

and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

RT

[Keeping Alert]

That's what I love about the bible! On one hand, I can understand the frustration that the book is not laid out like 1, 2, 3... But on the other hand, it just puts you in awe of a infinitely wise God which the bible says "the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men" (1Cor 1:25)

It's just like there was a time I asked my friend to explain Planck Theory to me as simply as possible and I know my friend took pains to make it as simple as he could, but it still went over my head.

Thank you RT, Mark for giving your patience in clarifying... It humbles me to know that there are so many angles that I have not even considered

[Keeping Alert]

Here are my thoughts regarding the 5th seal...

RT you wrote

I believe the effect of the seal is that these souls, are shown to be receiving "white robes", these robes represent their glorified bodies, therefore In my opinion what John is witnessing is in fact the resurrection of the dead in Christ,

I am thinking that this is possible but you know that I am slanting to the 6th seal rapture because of the earthquake sign... of course, this is only a theory but if to keep everything in line, i.e. that every place that a resurrection is mentioned in the bible, an earthquake occurs, I would expect an earthquake at the 5th seal...

Mark, you wrote this

I think the 5th seal signals a return to a Jewish dispensation, with "your brothers" is referring to their fellow Jews, who will then be persecuted. I think the "souls under the altar" are the OT faithful, who died under the first covenant.

I am just wondering if this has to be so? I did a quick search on "fellowservants" (or servants) and "brethren" and did not find any clear distinction in their use for Jews vs non-Jews...


So, as I was reading the passage over and over again, a sudden thought came to my mind... they are in fact groaning...

And what does the bible talk about groaning?

Romans 8:23 - even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body

2 Cor 5:2 - For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Cor 5:4 - For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened, not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon

We all groan for the redemption of our body but perhaps none more than those who "were slain for the word of God"... those that had been decapitated, boiled in oil, sawn in two, burned at the stake, fed to the lions...

I think they are eagerly awaiting the 6th seal resurrection/rapture...

Just some quick thoughts while contemplating...

[Keeping Alert]

Here are my thoughts regarding the 5th seal...

RT you wrote

I believe the effect of the seal is that these souls, are shown to be receiving "white robes", these robes represent their glorified bodies, therefore In my opinion what John is witnessing is in fact the resurrection of the dead in Christ,

I am thinking that this is possible but you know that I am slanting to the 6th seal rapture because of the earthquake sign... of course, this is only a theory but if to keep everything in line, i.e. that every place that a resurrection is mentioned in the bible, an earthquake occurs, I would expect an earthquake at the 5th seal...

Mark, you wrote this

I think the 5th seal signals a return to a Jewish dispensation, with "your brothers" is referring to their fellow Jews, who will then be persecuted. I think the "souls under the altar" are the OT faithful, who died under the first covenant.

I am just wondering if this has to be so? I did a quick search on "fellowservants" (or servants) and "brethren" and did not find any clear distinction in their use for Jews vs non-Jews...


So, as I was reading the passage over and over again, a sudden thought came to my mind... they are in fact groaning...

And what does the bible talk about groaning?

Romans 8:23 - even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body

2 Cor 5:2 - For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Cor 5:4 - For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened, not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon

We all groan for the redemption of our body but perhaps none more than those who "were slain for the word of God"... those that had been decapitated, boiled in oil, sawn in two, burned at the stake, fed to the lions...

I think they are eagerly awaiting the 6th seal resurrection/rapture... where the world shake with fear "For the great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?" ((Rev 6:17) They will have their vengeance soon...

Just some quick thoughts while contemplating...

Please feel free to comment

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Here are my thoughts regarding the 5th seal...

RT you wrote

I believe the effect of the seal is that these souls, are shown to be receiving "white robes", these robes represent their glorified bodies, therefore In my opinion what John is witnessing is in fact the resurrection of the dead in Christ,



I am thinking that this is possible but you know that I am slanting to the 6th seal rapture because of the earthquake sign... of course, this is only a theory but if to keep everything in line, i.e. that every place that a resurrection is mentioned in the bible, an earthquake occurs, I would expect an earthquake at the 5th seal...

Hi KeepingAlert,

I do not disagree with you on this point, and believe that the effect of the removal of the fifth seal likely coincides with the effect of the removal of the sixth seal. The dead in Christ will precede those who are alive, but I do not think much time will elapse between the two events. They follow in very close succession.

RT

[mark s]

Mark, you wrote this

I think the 5th seal signals a return to a Jewish dispensation, with "your brothers" is referring to their fellow Jews, who will then be persecuted. I think the "souls under the altar" are the OT faithful, who died under the first covenant.

I am just wondering if this has to be so? I did a quick search on "fellowservants" (or servants) and "brethren" and did not find any clear distinction in their use for Jews vs non-Jews...


So, as I was reading the passage over and over again, a sudden thought came to my mind... they are in fact groaning...

And what does the bible talk about groaning?

Romans 8:23 - even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body

2 Cor 5:2 - For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Cor 5:4 - For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened, not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon

We all groan for the redemption of our body but perhaps none more than those who "were slain for the word of God"... those that had been decapitated, boiled in oil, sawn in two, burned at the stake, fed to the lions...

I think they are eagerly awaiting the 6th seal resurrection/rapture...

Just some quick thoughts while contemplating...

Hi KA,

These things are so, yes, but I look at what they are told to wait for, the rest of their brothers that would be killed as they were. If their wait ends with the 6th seal immediately following, they do not have long to wait. But we know many more would be killed.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

(Revelation 6:9-11 ESV)

Compare this to . . .

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

(Revelation 12:17 ESV)

There is a commonality between the two, but with a noticeable difference. In the latter passage, their testimony is of Jesus, while Jesus is not named in the former. This is partly why I see the former as coming from before Jesus incarnated, while those in Revelation 12, the rest who would be killed as they were, know Jesus.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Keeping Alert]

Mark, you wrote this

I think the 5th seal signals a return to a Jewish dispensation, with "your brothers" is referring to their fellow Jews, who will then be persecuted. I think the "souls under the altar" are the OT faithful, who died under the first covenant.

I am just wondering if this has to be so? I did a quick search on "fellowservants" (or servants) and "brethren" and did not find any clear distinction in their use for Jews vs non-Jews...


So, as I was reading the passage over and over again, a sudden thought came to my mind... they are in fact groaning...

And what does the bible talk about groaning?

Romans 8:23 - even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body

2 Cor 5:2 - For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2 Cor 5:4 - For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened, not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon

We all groan for the redemption of our body but perhaps none more than those who "were slain for the word of God"... those that had been decapitated, boiled in oil, sawn in two, burned at the stake, fed to the lions...

I think they are eagerly awaiting the 6th seal resurrection/rapture...

Just some quick thoughts while contemplating...

Hi KA,

These things are so, yes, but I look at what they are told to wait for, the rest of their brothers that would be killed as they were. If their wait ends with the 6th seal immediately following, they do not have long to wait. But we know many more would be killed.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

(Revelation 6:9-11 ESV)

Compare this to . . .

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

(Revelation 12:17 ESV)

There is a commonality between the two, but with a noticeable difference. In the latter passage, their testimony is of Jesus, while Jesus is not named in the former. This is partly why I see the former as coming from before Jesus incarnated, while those in Revelation 12, the rest who would be killed as they were, know Jesus.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Thanks Mark. Interesting observation.

However, I note that this phrase is common throughout the Book of Revelation.

In fact, in the very introduction of the book there is in verse 2 "(John) who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ." John repeats it again in 1:9

The absence of the words "Jesus Christ" as you pointed out in Rev 6:9 is interesting and may be significant hermeneutically but if I were to read it as a novel, I would take it to mean all the same especially since it was written all by John.

Of course, the phrase "word of God" will bring to mind Rev 19:13 where Jesus identified as the true "Word of God"

As far as I can investigate, ο λογος του θεου is identical in all phrases written as "word of God"

Therefore, my current take (probably on shaky grounds since I am a newbie sixth seal rapture convert) is that the first five seals have all been opened... The first four seals with horses galloping with varying speeds at different times but gathering speed towards the end.... The fifth seal was opened to let us see the many martyrs that will be from John's time who will have "rest for a little season" (6:11)

I am currently pondering the significance of the seals being opened by "a Lamb as it had been slain" (4:6)

I am intrigued by your idea of the return of the Jewish Dispensation at the 5th seal but I see a better fit at the 7th seal...

So I think the first five seals have been opened in quick succession at John's time...

And then the sixth and seventh seal in quick succession later...

At the sixth seal, there is a simultaneous resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture of the saints alive and the sealing of the 144000...

The 144000 is seen closely linked with the LAMB again in Chapter 14

The Lamb is of course the endearing image of the Gospel of Grace...

The 144000 are clearly Messainic Jews sealed at the sixth seal so it appears to me that the fifth seal has not begun the Jewish dispensation...

Love-in-Christ,
KA

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi Keeping Alert, I pretty much agree with you as to the seals except that I think seal five six and seven still await removal. With five being the resurrection of the dead in Christ and Six being the rapture. As I have noted above I think these two seals are removed almost simultaneously.

I am currently pondering the significance of the seals being opened by "a Lamb as it had been slain" (4:6)

Sorry about the lengthy post that follows, but after you read it, I think you will understand why I felt it necessary.

I believe that when Jesus enters the heavenly tabernacle (holy of holies) as the lamb that was slain, that He is actually showing John something from the past, not something future. Jesus is showing him the events that transpired in heaven when He ascended after His death and resurrection, the initiation of the New Covenant era. To me this is very obvious, though I know many would disagree with me on that point.

There are several things in chapter four that point to this idea:

First you have a positional change in the "seven Spirits of God", :

They are first depicted as seven lamps of fire burning before the throne:

Revelation 4:5
5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

Then after the Lamb that was slain enters they are depicted as seven horns and seven eyes on the lamb Himself:

Revelation 5:6
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

As we know from the book of Hebrews and Leviticus and Chronicles, the earthly wilderness tabernacle and the later temple in Jerusalem were patterned after the heavenly tabernacle, which is where John is called up into to receive the revelation. In the earthly tabernacle/temple, the seven branched menorah served as the copy for the seven lamps of fire before the throne of God, under the old covenant.

Interestingly in the book of Acts, when the Holy Spirit comes upon the disciples gathered together on Pentecost, He is pictured as flames of fire. It is a perfect picture of the change in the work of the Holy Spirit that John sees when the Lamb enters as if slain.

Acts 2:1-4
1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

The Lamb that was slain sent the Holy Spirit to indwell believers, effectively sending the Spirit out into all the earth.

We also see a change in the behavior of the 24 elders. John sees them first sitting on thrones around the throne of God.

Revelation 4:4
4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

Revelation 4:10-11
10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

After the Lamb enters we see them doing the following:

Revelation 5:8-10
8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Before the Lamb that was Slain enters the elders are submitting their authority to the creator who sits on the throne. They show their submission by casting their crowns before the throne. These are not the "saints" as many assume, I believe that they serve as the heavenly pattern for the earthly High priests that served under the Old Covenant in the Holy of Holies. Remember the earthly high priests wore a golden crown with the words "holy to the Lord" inscribed on it. The golden crown was a symbol of their authority, granted by God to serve Him and to enter into the holy place on the day of atonement. There were 24 divisions of priests according to families whose members took turns serving as High Priest. That they sit on thrones also demonstrates their position of authority, and likely they serve/d as a kind of heavenly panel of judges of the tribes of Israel, after the rapture/resurrection, in the millennial kingdom when Israel as a nation is once again serving God, the disciples will fulfill this role (See Luke 22:30), they too will occupy "thrones".

After the Lamb enters we see them now praising the Lamb and presumably they now subject themselves to His authority as they sing a "new song". Which is the song of the New Covenant era. The Father whom they were singing praises to hands the scroll to the Lamb, and now they praise Him.

Many claim that this is not an event of John's past, but say this is a future event. I see several reasons why this cannot be so, I will not elaborate too much here, but in short, Jesus enters the heavenly tabernacle only once as the Lamb that was slain, one time for all to offer Himself as the atoning sacrifice and to initiate the New Covenant in His blood (please read the book of Hebrews for clarification). Also and more clearly seen in the book of Revelation that John opens the letter to the seven churches with this:

Revelation 1:4-6
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Note that John says that Jesus who was firstborn of the dead (the Lamb standing as if slain) who released us from our sins by His blood ( purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.) has made (past tense) us to be a kingdom of priests to His God and Father ( “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God).

Echoing the new song that is sung around the throne when the Lamb enters the heavenly tabernacle, thus we know that what John sees happening in chapter four is actually an event from his past. The song itself tells us what event has made Jesus “worthy” to now open the seals. It is because He was slain and purchased for God with His blood men from every tribe tongue people and nation (the gentiles). He has just arrived in heaven after accomplishing this task. “The Lion from the tribe of Judah, the root of David has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals”.

What made the Lion of Judah, the root of David, which is interestingly an Old Testament description of Christ, worthy to open the scroll? The answer is given to us: He overcame; He overcame the world, he overcame death, but when did He do so?

Revelation 3:21
21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Jesus says that he overcame and sat down with His father on His throne, the following passage tells us when this happened:

Hebrews 1:3
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

What John witnesses is Christ entering into the heavenly tabernacle to make atonement for sin, once for all mankind, He is initiating the New Covenant era. Which is a very important piece of the prophecy pie so to speak. Prophecy could not be fulfilled until this event happened. Which is why IMO that it is the first thing he sees after being caught up into the heavenly realm.

Hebrews 9:22-26
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hebrews 10:10-14
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet.
14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

RT

[Keeping Alert]

Hi RT, Just to let you know that I am taking time to read (and re-read) your post

[christian_m0mmy]

Hi RT, Just to let you know that I am taking time to read (and re-read) your post

I agree! I could sit and read her posts for hours! Over and over I think "wow, she's right! why didn't I see that before!"


(edited to fix my wrong assumption of gender, lol)

[Exit40]

Hi RT, Just to let you know that I am taking time to read (and re-read) your post

I agree! I could sit and read his posts for hours! Over and over I think "wow, he's right! why didn't I see that before!"

Ahem. Yes, She is spectacular.

God Bless You

David

[christian_m0mmy]

Ahem. Yes, She is spectacular.

God Bless You

David

Thanks David

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi RT, Just to let you know that I am taking time to read (and re-read) your post

I agree! I could sit and read his posts for hours! Over and over I think "wow, he's right! why didn't I see that before!"

Ahem. Yes, She is spectacular.

God Bless You

David

Yeah, I am a she not a he You guys have no idea what a boost your encouraging words are to me. Sometimes I feel like no one gets it, what I am trying to explain. Here at home no one is even interested in hearing about these kinds of things. You know how the saying goes... "a prophet is without honor in his own home" (Mark 6:4). I wonder why I even bother at times. It is nice to know that people are reading my posts and getting something out of it. "Spectacular" might be a bit generous, and I make no claims to have it all figured out, I am simply trying to figure it out along with every one else here.

Honestly I think the differences over interpretations regarding prophecy can cause people in the church to avoid the topic altogether. As we know the prophetic word holds such blessing for us as believers, it is really a shame that so few are really interested in studying it more closely. Many are so willing to accept what has been taught through the years, that they have a hard time looking at it from a fresh perspective. I have often thought of publishing my study on the book of Revelation but wouldn't even know where to begin to accomplish that. This site is truly my only outlet.

Thanks guys for the encouragement.

Now

RT

[morpheus]

A pre-trib rapture starting at the 6th/7th seal is very possible just looking at the book of Revelation. In fact, it is a way stronger theory than the rapture being when John is told to come up at the start of chapter 4. Nothing in the first 5 seals are unique to the end times.

The problem comes when you try and harmonize the Olivet Discourse with Revelation. In the Olivet Discourse, the Abomination of Desolation happens before the sign in the sun,moon, and stars. One would have to maintain that the AoD has already happened and the signs in the sky are the only thing to happen immediately at the start of the rapture. Otherwise the rapture cannot be pre-trib.

So while this 6th seal pre-trib rapture theory is interesting, I don't think it can work. One would have to totally separate the Olivet Discourse from Revelation. Seeing Jesus told both, that is a hard pill to swallow. Not only do the four passages match up tightly, but Jesus would know the similarities and then be guilty of not clarifying that the one end time passage(s) do not match up with the other.

Help me out here folks. Do you see this problem too?

[Sanderson]

Hi morpheus,

Not only do the four passages match up tightly, but Jesus would know the similarities and then be guilty of not clarifying that the one end time passage(s) do not match up with the other.

Would you give the references for the four passages that you are referring to?

I'm thinking that you are matching Mat 24:29-31 to Rev 6:12-17 as being the same event. Is that correct? I think I understand what you see as being a problem but it's only a problem if one sees them as the same event, which I don't think they are.

[morpheus]

The four passages I was talking about were Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and Rev 6. The first three are commonly referred to as the Olivet Discourse and have historically been harmonized as being three different perspectives of the same conversation. So you can also refer to the Olivet Discourse and Revelation as just two conversations also. It all depends on how you want to define it.

Yes, the signs in the heavens in the Olivet Discourse and in Revelation 6 are the same. That debate should have ended hundreds of years ago. Here is why. There are more differences in the gospel accounts of Jesus's life than between these two prophecy passages. Do you want to claim there were four different people called Jesus? After all, one can point to differences in the gospel accounts. Why harmonize in all the gospels and then deharmonize when it comes to prophecy? We harmonize the differences into a fuller picture of the life of Jesus. We harmonize to get a fuller picture of prophetic events.

Are there differences between the various Olivet Discourse passages and Revelation? Yes. Is there a way to harmonize them without contradiction. Absolutely. There is nothing that prevents an harmony between the two. That is a very powerful point. One can always point to differences but the question is are they exclusive differences? That is, is there absolutely no way the two passages, or more, can be harmonized? If there is something stopping harmonizing, then it is obviously no match. I repeat. There is nothing between rev 6 and the Olivet Discourse that prevents a solid harmonizing of the two sequences. One should not just look at the sixth seal, but the whole sequence.

Olivet DIscourse Quick Harmony
Overview (Luke 21:8-19)
False Christs
Wars
Pestilence and famine
Death
Persecution - note this out of order "but before all this (that is, the fearful signs in the heavens)..." so it gets moved
from after the signs in the heavens to before the signs in the heavens
Signs in the Heavens
Details of Great Tribulation (Luke 21:20-28)
Abomination of Desolation
Martyrs
Signs in heavens
Sign of the Son of Man
Redemption

Rev 6
White Horseman (false christ)
Red Horseman (war)
Black horseman (famine)
Pale horseman (death)
Martyrs
Signs in heavens

Rev 7 is the redemption that Luke talks about and then the trumpet judgements are God's wrath until the end of the 70th seven in Rev 11. Rev 12 then takes a second pass at the details of the Great Tribulation and Day of the Lord and what comes after. So Revelation 4-11 if the overview and Rev 12 - 22 is the details of the second half of the end times. This matches up with the Olivet Discourse perfectly.

I repeat, that there is nothing in this theory that prevents a match. Differences? Yes. But not unlike those found in the gospels about the life of Christ. So we harmonize because we can and because we should. Just like we harmonize the OT with the NT. Just like we harmonize I and II Samuel, I and II Kings with I and II Chronicles. Just like we harmonize Exodus and Numbers with Deuteronomy. Just like we harmonize the Pauline epistles. Get the pattern?

If one cannot harmonize, that is a huge clue you are not understanding something. Can't harmonize the info in Ezekiel 40-48 and Revelation 21? Guess what? You are missing something very important. Because they match and match tightly.

I think the pre-trib has no problem with putting the rapture just after the sixth seal except for the Abomination of Desolation (AOD) being before the signs in the heavens in the Olivet Discourse. In fact, I would put the AOD before the persecution and martyrs. That messes up the sixth seal being the pre-trib theory. 2 Thess 2 also is problematic. The rapture can't both be imminent and after the AOD. So the rapture can't be at the sixth seal or the pre-trib position is wrong.

So finding the pre-trib rapture in the sequences of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, and Revelation is still not solved. The sixth seal was close as a candidate but would violate immanency, the backbone of the pre-trib position. Unless immanency gets throw out, and with it the pre-trib position, then the sixth seal cannot be the rapture.

[christian_m0mmy]

Are we supposed to be discussing this here?

[Sanderson]

I repeat, that there is nothing in this theory that prevents a match. Differences? Yes. But not unlike those found in the gospels about the life of Christ. So we harmonize because we can and because we should. Just like we harmonize the OT with the NT. Just like we harmonize I and II Samuel, I and II Kings with I and II Chronicles. Just like we harmonize Exodus and Numbers with Deuteronomy. Just like we harmonize the Pauline epistles. Get the pattern?

If one cannot harmonize, that is a huge clue you are not understanding something. Can't harmonize the info in Ezekiel 40-48 and Revelation 21? Guess what? You are missing something very important. Because they match and match tightly.

Thanks for the clarifying response. Clearly your mind is made up so any further discussion would lead to debate and as christian_m0mmy pointed out (and I agree) I don't think this is the proper forum. Perhaps someone in the debate forum would like to continue with you.

[morpheus]

This is a pre-trib only forum and a question was asked concerning something about the pre-trib rapture occurring at the 6th seal. I responded that by looking only at Revelation, it was a good fit. However, when harmonizing Revelation with the Olivet Discourse there is a major problem - a problem that would undermine the pre-trib position. I did not argue for any other position.

Is my mind made up? I am always open to other information. I've flipped positions in the past and could do so again when somebody shows I am wrong. Had to do that a couple months ago due to what somebody wrote in another thread on this forum. I appreciate them pointing out something I didn't see. It is give and take.

If you don't like what I say then you are free to disagree. You are even free to list my mistakes. In fact, I would welcome that. However, do not attack the person. I am just another person trying to learn and share what I have learned. We are all on the same team here. There are watchers and then there are sleepers. Anybody who is a watcher is a friend of mine. We may agree on somethings and disagree on others. It is part of the process. Sorry if anyone thought I came across too strongly.

[4givenmuch]

I actually took the time to read through this whole post (first time in a long time) and ... you guys ROCK!

[Resurrection Torchlight]

This is a pre-trib only forum and a question was asked concerning something about the pre-trib rapture occurring at the 6th seal. I responded that by looking only at Revelation, it was a good fit. However, when harmonizing Revelation with the Olivet Discourse there is a major problem - a problem that would undermine the pre-trib position. I did not argue for any other position.

Is my mind made up? I am always open to other information. I've flipped positions in the past and could do so again when somebody shows I am wrong. Had to do that a couple months ago due to what somebody wrote in another thread on this forum. I appreciate them pointing out something I didn't see. It is give and take.

If you don't like what I say then you are free to disagree. You are even free to list my mistakes. In fact, I would welcome that. However, do not attack the person. I am just another person trying to learn and share what I have learned. We are all on the same team here. There are watchers and then there are sleepers. Anybody who is a watcher is a friend of mine. We may agree on somethings and disagree on others. It is part of the process. Sorry if anyone thought I came across too strongly.

Hi Morpheus, can you please explain in more detail what the major problem is that you see in trying to harmonize the olivet discourse with a 6th seal pre trib rapture? You said something about the signs in the heaven, can you elaborate? I am not trying to be critical, just trying to understand. I happen to believe they harmonize well and would be happy to explain why. But I would first like to understand why you feel there is a problem.

(If the moderators feel this should be discussed in the debate forum I am fine with that.)

Thanks

RT

[morpheus]

(If this needs to be moved to debate section, I am fine with that too.)

Putting the rapture at/after the sixth seal in Revelation is not a problem at all in just looking at the book of Revelation. In fact it sure makes sense. After all the first 5 seals have been going on for 2000 years. One could say there is going to be something specific and different from that which went before, but you would need to get that data mostly from other passages. That is what the original question in this thread was about and I found it very interesting.

However, I do see a major problem with this hypothesis when one attempts to harmonize the Olivet Discourse with Revelation. That is my point. It is my opinion that based on this conflict, that the 6th seal rapture idea is incompatible with a pre-trib rapture. So both cannot be right.

The Olivet Discourse and Revelation are the two major prophetic sequence passages in the Bible. A sequence is a list of things that come after each other. However, that is not to say it cannot have time jumps in the sequence. For example, in the Olivet Discourse, we see phrases like "but before these things..." That indicates a time jump backwards. So the sequence is not always laid out in a nice simple order.

Also in Revelation we have to be careful about the phrase "and then I saw..." John is telling us what is the order of his focus. However if five things happen at once, we have to be careful that one's focus and then describing what they saw does not necessary imply sequential order. Usually it does, but not always.

So in looking at the two sequence passages, and keeping an eye for out for of the tricky stuff, we can build a general outline sequence for both and compare. That is what I did. One can look at that and see what I did. If there is a problem, please point it out to me. Because I am working from this understanding.

As can be seen when harmonizing the three Olivet Discourse passages, (something I did not do but it should not be too hard to do yourself) the Olivet Discourse is in two parts. And "then the end shall come" is the ending of the first part. Jesus then said "when you see Jerusalem surrounded..." While this could be sequential, it might also not be sequential. It depends when this surrounding occurs. We do know it happens right before the Abomination of Desolation occurs.

Daniel 9 puts this AOD at the midpoint of the seventieth seven. Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse to make sure we understand Daniel. He pointed out there was something there that we needed to understand. While he did not tell us the clue directly, he told us where to look. I believe this is a pretty big key to understanding the Olivet Discourse. Knowing the timing of the AoD tells us the point where the second half of the Olivet Discourse jumps back to in the time sequence.

So after the AOD is when the persecution happens and then after that is the sign of the son of man and the signs in the heavens. If the sixth seal in Revelation 6 matches up with these signs, then the 6th seal has to be after the AOD. If the 6th seal is the rapture, then the rapture is not pre-trib. It is not even mid-trib. It would be after that. So to maintain the pre-trib view, it is not possible for the 6th seal to be the rapture.

And that is why pre-trib has historically not linked up the 6th seal with the rapture. They place it at the beginning of the 70th seven. They have the signs in the heavens in the Olivet Discourse matching up with Rev 19 instead.

I want to be clear here. This is the pre-trib only forum. No views outside the pre-trib should be debated. So anything discussed should all be with that understanding. But I actually read all the various rapture timing sections and respond in all of them about various things. I want to learn from all the various people, not just from one side in the debate. Gold nuggets are found everywhere. So too is junk sometimes. So I jump in where I have questions or where I think I have answers.

Regardless of when one believes the timing of rapture takes place, I strongly feel the sixth seal cannot be the pre-trib rapture for the reasons stated above. A sixth seal rapture is the defining point of one of the other rapture positions, not the pre-trib. But if somebody can point to a flaw in my reasoning, I am all ears. Because this is what I understand and if it is wrong, please correct me.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Okay Morpheus, let me see if I am understanding you correctly, I am going to divide up what you have written and respond accordingly, you can let me know if I am misunderstanding you at all:

Daniel 9 puts this AOD at the midpoint of the seventieth seven. Jesus told us in the Olivet Discourse to make sure we understand Daniel. He pointed out there was something there that we needed to understand. While he did not tell us the clue directly, he told us where to look. I believe this is a pretty big key to understanding the Olivet Discourse. Knowing the timing of the AoD tells us the point where the second half of the Olivet Discourse jumps back to in the time sequence.

So after the AOD is when the persecution happens

I would agree with what you have said here. But just to be sure: are you saying that you believe that the midpoint of the 70th week is coincident with the AOD? I would also agree that the great tribulation begins after this event, or persecution as you have pointed out. I would also say that the events described in Rev 12: 13-17 speak of the same event as well and that the parallel Olivet passage in Luke 21:20 -24 also speaks of the same events.

and then after that is the sign of the son of man and the signs in the heavens. If the sixth seal in Revelation 6 matches up with these signs, then the 6th seal has to be after the AOD. If the 6th seal is the rapture, then the rapture is not pre-trib. It is not even mid-trib. It would be after that. So to maintain the pre-trib view, it is not possible for the 6th seal to be the rapture.

And that is why pre-trib has historically not linked up the 6th seal with the rapture. They place it at the beginning of the 70th seven. They have the signs in the heavens in the Olivet Discourse matching up with Rev 19 instead.

So here is where you see the problem correct? That the signs in the heavens don't seem to match up? However I would like to suggest a different angle of veiw for the signs in Rev 6. I do not agree that they are the same signs described in the Olivet discourse or in Revelation 19. Let's take a better look at what is happening.

(Please see next post)

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

So first of all let's look at the signs that occur at the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-17
12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Here are the signs:
1. A great earthquake
2. The sun is darkened or made "black as sackcloth made of hair"
3. The whole moon becomes like blood
4. The stars fall from the sky
5. The sky is split apart "like a scroll"
6. Every mountain and island are moved out of their places
7. The kings of earth and great men and commanders and rich and strong along with slaves and free men hide themselves in caves and among the mountains, from "Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb"

Now let us look at the signs in Revelation 16, which I believe most people would say are the same events of the sixth seal, which would immediately precede the events found in Revelation 19, the Lord's return:

Revelation 16:10-21
10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,
11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.”
18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.
19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.

A. At the pouring of the fifth bowl great darkness falls upon the kingdom of the beast
B. At the poring of the sixth bowl the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the kings of the east who are gathered together at armageddon (Har-Mageddon).
C. The seventh bowl is poured out, and here it is "done". The effects of this bowl are as follows:

1. flashes of lightning and peals of thunder
2. A great earthquake like none that ever preceded it ever
3. The "great city" is split three ways, the cities of nations fall.
4. Every island flees away and mountains are no longer found, implying they collapse.
5. Huge 100 pound hailstones fall from heaven.

Then after these events we move to Revelation 19 which gives us the following additional signs:

6. heaven is opened
7. Jesus and his army appear and proceed to destroy His enemies.

And here are the signs found in the Olivet discourse, those that occur after the AOD:

1. Those in Judea flee to the mountains (Luke says that Jerusalem is surrounded by armies)
2. Great tribulation happens

after the tribulation these signs happen:

Matthew 24:29-31
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
31 “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

3. The sun is darkened
4. The moon does not give its light
5. The stars fall from the sky
6. The powers of heaven and earth are shaken
7. The people of earth see Jesus coming to earth
8. The elect are gathered


cont'd...

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

If we compare the sixth seal signs and those found in the Olivet discourse they do indeed look very similar, but are they the same?

we have a darkened sun in both, some of the Old Testament descriptions we find concerning the darkness are described as:

Isaiah 13:10
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.

Zephaniah 1:15
15 A day of wrath is that day,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of destruction and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,

Interestingly The Olivet discourse describes the moon as not giving its light at all. Whereas at the sixth seal the description is more akin to a lunar eclipse. the light is actually still there but obscured by the shadow of the earth to look red. The passage quoted by Peter at pentecost from Joel seems to mirror that of the sith seal more closely

Joel 2:31
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Joel indicates that this occurs before the day of the Lord comes.

Clearly the description of the moon at the opening of the sixth seal is not the same as in the Olivet passage. A blood moon still gives off light. The moon in the Olivet discourse is not shining forth any light and as such it could not also appear as a full moon colored as blood.

There is also a description of the stars falling, but at the opening of the sixth seal there is a description given of these stars:

Revelation 6:13
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

I find this very curious, especially in light of the parable given in the Olivet discourse about the actual signs that will precede the Lord's return:

Matthew 24:32-33
32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33 so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

Both descriptions are of a fig tree in spring, the unripe figs in Rev 6 and the tender branch just putting forth its leaves. It is a preharvest tree. perhaps I am reading more into the parable than is really there but consider the following passage in Isaiah which is talking about the day of vengeance, the day of the Lord, which many also say is a parallel of events described at the opening of the sixth seal:

Isaiah 34:4
4 And all the host of heaven will wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.

There is a great difference in this description of the fig tree, can you spot it? It is a post harvest tree not a tree with unripe fruit, bit rather a tree whose fruit has already been harvested.

The fig tree as you know is symbolic of Israel, see Jeremiah 24, Hosea 9:10, Just before the Olivet discourse Jesus curses the fig tree, which many understand to be symbolic of Him cursing the nation of Israel because they rejected Him.

Contrary to what most prophecy scholars teach, that the fig tree symbolizes the political rebirth of Israel as a nation, I believe it symbolizes their spiritual rebirth. The Lord deliberately uses language in the description of the opening of the sixth seal that shows a spring fig tree with its unripe fruit falling. In contrast to the Isaiah passage which clearly describes a post harvest tree. This event happens before Israel's spiritual rebirth, the figs which fall are not yet ripe. We also know from the passage in Daniel which also talks about the stars falling, that the stars (Daniel 8:9-10) actually represent people from the nation of Israel who were trampled by the horn of the goat, known to be the ruler of the Kingdom of Greece, Antiochus Epiphenes, who serves a s a type of the Antichrist.

So I would contend that though the signs are similar they are not the same. In fact the parable of the fig tree, seems to indicate that the "season" in which the Lord will return is summer. Which is the time of year when figs are harvested. When the nation of Israel will have yielded its spiritual fruit in full!

cont'd...

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

You also have the sign of the great earthquake:

At the opening of the sixth seal it is described as just that "Great". Saying that every mountain and Island is moved from its place. Whether this is a metaphor for nations or actual Islands and mountains is hard to say, but in any case the description found later at the pouring of the seventh bowl is very different as it says that every Island flees, and the mountains are no longer found. This earthquake is also described as unprecedented, that there has never been as great an earthquake ever on the face of the earth as great and mighty as this one. We know that earthquakes that have already occured have the power to move the earth's axis, to move Islands and mountains by inches and meters, so it is easy to believe that literally islands and mountains will move, but the description at the seventh bowl certainly sounds much more extreme than the one at the sixth seal.

Cont'd...

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Now to me the description of those who hide themselves at the opening of the sixth seal is the most telling. It serves at least to me to be the most convincing evidence that the events of the sixth seal cannot be the same events that occur later in the revelation.

Let me just re post the passage here:

Revelation 6:15-17
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Here you have this group of people described as hiding in fear from the presence of the Lamb. while later this same group is described as acting in open rebellion and defiance of God:

Revelation 16:13-14
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

Revelation 19:17-19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

It is impossible for the same group of people to be hiding in caves in fear of the Lamb and also be assembled on the battlefield to make war against the Lamb. The great "supper of God" is the slaughter of those gathered to battle against the Lamb. The very same group identified as hiding in caves in fear of him at the opening of the sixth seal is now going to be served up as dinner for the birds.


Now some will point to the part of the passage at the opening of the sixth seal that seems to indicate that the day of the Lord has come. What happens in this passage is a very significant departure from the passages that precede it and those that follow. This group of people that remain on earth are making the claim, they believe the day of the Lord has come. No where does John confirm this, no angelic being, nor Christ Himself says this. This is being said by the people on earth. No where else in the entire revelation do we hear from the people on earth, this is the only place this happens. I personally believe that the people on earth will believe that the day of the Lord has come, they will see the beginning of events as the end. I believe it is in fact part of the great delusion sent by God upon those who will remain on earth. The people of earth will be led by the events that transpire at the opening of the sixth seal to believe the day of the Lord's wrath has come. This is in fact what led Paul to write to the Thessalonians about those who were misleading them to believe that the day of the Lord had already come in their day.

Also consider the following passage:

On His way to the Crucifixion, Jesus says:

Luke 23:26-31
26 When they led Him away, they seized a man, Simon of Cyrene, coming in from the country, and placed on him the cross to carry behind Jesus.
27 And following Him was a large crowd of the people, and of women who were mourning and lamenting Him.
28 But Jesus turning to them said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.
29 “For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.’
30 “Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’
31 “For if they do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”

Again Jesus makes reference to the seasons of the tree and harvest, a pre-harvest green tree of spring, and a post harvest dry tree of fall. He is showing them that they are behaving prematurely,that by beginning to say on the mountains "fall on us and cover us" that they are going to behave as if the end of the harvest had already come, when in fact it has not yet begun. Israel has remained the pre-harvest tree of spring since Christ's death and resurrection. But one day the spring tree will begin to produce fruit, at the opening of the sixth seal the stars fall as unripe figs of the spring tree, when a great wind blows upon them. The Olivet signs are likened to that spring tree, when you begin to see these things happen then know that Jesus is about to return.

One of the main signs is in fact the AOD, or as Luke says, when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies. Those of the nation of Israel who remain on earth when the AOD happens will be the generation that does not pass away until all that is prophecied takes place, they will be part of the spiritual harvest that Jesus will gather to Jerusalem when He rules from His throne over the earth.


And in the parallel passage in Luke Jesus does indicate that believers can escape the things that are about to take place, they will escape to the heavenly tabernacle where they will stand before the Son of Man (In the resurrection). (See Rev 7:9-17)

Luke 21:36
36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

RT

[christian_m0mmy]

Again, RT. When I read your posts, things become so clear I think to myself, "why didn't I see that?"

Thank you!

[brett]

Hi guys,

I just thought I'd drop these charts into the discussion. Simply click on the links to view:

http://hostrepo.com/daniels_70th_week_chart-small.jpg
http://hostrepo.com/book_of_revelation_chart.jpg
http://hostrepo.com/chronology_of_revelation_chart.jpg

God Bless.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi Brett, not sure if you noticed, but this thread is about a pre-trib sixth seal rapture. Or a pre 70th week rapture. The links to the charts you provided appear to be supporting a mid trib sixth seal rapture view. This thread started in the pre trib view only forum and was moved here, so that we could debate it with others. feel free to enter the debate, but just be aware that the OP is about a pre trib rapture view.

RT

[morpheus]

RT,

Thanks for the responses and you obviously put time and effort into what you wrote. However I disagree with your conclusion. I think you skipped some data that would have contradicted your conclusion and even mentioned some other data that did contradict your conclusion. Most of the rest of what your wrote in equivocal, that is, it can go either way.

In Revelation we have a number of possible matches to the Olivet Discourse signs in the heavens. There is the 6th-7th seal in Rev 6-7, the 6th - 7th trumpet event in Rev 10-11, the 6th-7th bowl event in Revelation 16, and the white rider event in Rev 19-20. These four events are the possible matches.

Not only should we list out what things happen at these events and compare, but we must also compare where these things happen in the sequences given. RT, you did not state these sequences and it is very revealing to do this. If something cannot fit in the sequence, then it cannot be a match in the first place.

Let's start with Revelation since there are four events that are potential matches. The first question we should ask is what is the sequence or sequences of Revelation? Are there really four events or do some or all of these events duplicated? Here is my outline of Revelation

Introduction
Letters to the Seven churches
Main Sequence
Heaven and the scroll
Opening the seven seals
Seven trumpets
The End of the Age
Rev 12 breaks the sequence, jumps back in time to events at Jesus' birth, when Satan was ready to snatch him up as a child, and then jumps to war in heaven and Satan kicked out of heaven. Since he persecutes the woman for 3.5 years (1260 days) most people place this at the midpoint of the 70th seven end times.
Great Tribulation details (not necessarily all in order, think of these as hyperlinks John went through as if on a website)
Two Beasts
144,000
3 angels
2 harvests
7 angels / bowl judgments (air campaign / bombardment)
Mystery Babylon and her destruction
Ground campaign (invasion by Jesus and His armies)
millenium
Great White throne judgment
New heaven, earth, and Jerusalem
Conclusion

Even if one disagrees with this outline of Revelation, they have to admit there is nothing in this list that contradict scripture. There are no grammar, vocabulary, or logic problems. So not only is the Olivet Discourse in two parts, so is Revelation. And even more so, they both have the exact same structure. Revelation obviously gives way more details though.

If the outline of Revelation above is correct, we can then see if the four events in Revelation match up with each other. We can start to match things up. I would maintain that the 2 harvests in Revelation 14 show an overview, the first harvest matching up with Revelation 7 and the second with the Great White Throne Judgment. The 144,000 in Revelation 14 match up with the 144,000 in Revelation 7.

So from this structure it can be seen that the bowl judgments are just the trumpet judgments from a different perspective and they harmonize. Do a comparison of this and you will see they can match up. Are there differences? Yes, but they share detail that is strikingly similar and highly unusual. There is nothing preventing a harmonization of the trumpets and bowls. But this is just a side point.

Therefore, the 6th-7th trumpet and the 6th-7th seal, and also Revelation 19-20 all match up as the same event at the end of the age, that is the end of the 70th week of Daniel. That basically puts the 6th seal as one event much earlier in the sequence and the other 3 events in Revelation as the second major event at the end. So really there are only two events that the signs in the heavens of the Olivet Discourse can match up to. Either the end, or the 6th seal.

Seeing the Olivet Discourse sequence matches perfectly with the Olivet Discourse up to the 6th seal, why not just take that as is? At the end of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus told us to lift up our heads because our redemption draws nigh. Indeed at Revelation 7, there is a great multitude coming out of the Great Tribulation. So the match is not just in Revelation 6 but also through Revelation 7.

The details also match up. In the Olivet Discourse we have the following:

Immediately after the distress of those days... (note the word distress here is the word Tribulation, so this is a post trib event . This rules out this event being pre-trib)

1. The sun will be darkened
2. The moon will not give its light
3. The stars will fall from the sky
4. The heavenly bodies will be shaken (Luke 21:25-26 "On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the
roaring and tossing of the sea. People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the
heavenly bodies will be shaken")
5. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven
6. All the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven,
with power and great glory.
7. He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds,
from one end of the heavens to the other. (Luke 21 - When these things begin to take place, stand up and
lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”)

Compare this to Revelation 6-7

verse 12 - I watched as he opened the sixth seal...

1. There was a great earthquake.
2. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair
3. The whole moon turned blood red
4. The stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
5. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
6. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!" (they see something here and describe what they see. They see if first, and then hide so the order of this is actually reversed.) "For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?"
7. After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.
8. 144,000 sealed
9. Great multitude coming out of the Great Tribulation

The only difference I see in these two lists is the 144,000 is not mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. The list otherwise is pretty much an exact match. One can try and nicknack about is the moon actually dark or is it red? Actually the truth is when an eclipse happens, before it goes dark, it goes red. If one knows anything about astronomy or has seen an eclipse, they would know the two are not exclusive at all. So to say this is a difference is not a valid point. Just look over these two lists - they match and match almost exactly. There is nothing anybody can say to prove they are different events. I showed straight scripture to scripture. Not much room to even put win man's ideas anywhere.

Looks at the details of the other three Revelation passages. Here are the the 6th-7th trumpet details.

1. I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke...

2. Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

3. There was a severe earthquake. "At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven."

4. An angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

5. God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

This is an interesting passage and has a lot of detail, detail not in the first Revelation passage and not in the Olivet Discourse. It is not a one for one match like Rev 6-7 was to the Olivet Discourse. However, there is nothing that says it cannot match up either. The biggest thing is it does not match up sequence wise. There are 5 trumpet judgements between these first two specific Revelation events. The fifth trumpet judgment is at least 5 months long, so there is at least this much time between the 7th seal and the 7th trumpet.

What about the other two Revelation passages? In Revelation 16, we have the 6th-7th bowl judgement. Here is that detail.

The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

Again, there are a number of very specific things mentioned here but they do not match up one-for-one with the Olivet Discourse. In fact the "It is Done" indeed matches up best with the 7th trumpet event. Not only that, the hail that falls does not match up with Jesus telling us to lift up our heads for redemption. So this passage does not jump out for a match to the Olivet Discourse but does a little to the end of the trumpet judgments. Both the 7th trumpet and 7th bowl judgment specifically mentions a great earthquake in Jerusalem and hail storm. Again, looking at the sequence of Revelation, it matches up with the 7th trumpet not the 7th seal. So in both sequence and details we have a match, but not with the 6th seal or the Olivet Discourse.

Now one could try from the detail to read these events into the Olivet Discourse, and I can see that is not a stupid thing to do. So I do not fault people for trying, But the sequence issue is another story. They have to not just fit the details together, but the sequences too.

So let's look at Revelation 19-20. Here are those details.

1. Heaven opens

2. Out comes a White horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

3. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

4. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: "King of kings and Lord of lords."

5. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

6. The beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gather together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.

7. The beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf... The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

8. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

9. I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

10. I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

These details are very specific also. They do not match one-for-one with the Olivet Discourse. They match sequence wise with end of the age event of Revelation 10-11 and Revelation 16. The details given match better than with the 6th seal. Redemption is not the focus here; judgment is. There are similarities though. I can see why people should try to see if they match. But they don't.

I also did not go into great detail about this end of age, end of the second coming event. The 6th trumpet and 6th bowl talk more about how the armies of the earth gather to fight Jesus. It matches up with Revelation 19 much better when this is considered. There is only so much I can write about here. You can see this detail matches up if you research it.

So, I have hopefully responded to you RT with equivalent detail. You took time, and so have I. Compare what I said to what you said. Others can weigh in here. I guess we have a good conversation going and it is way bigger than just the timing of the rapture. Maybe again, this should be moved to the general debate section. I would not be opposed.

I hope I have shown the sixth seal matches up with the 6th-7th seal, not the 6th-7th trumpet, bowls, or Revelation 19. Not only does the Olivet Discourse put this 6th seal event after the tribulation, but i have to admit I was wrong and Revelation does indeed put the 6th seal event after the Great Tribulation. In Revelation 7 the Great Multitude comes out of the Great Tribulation. Therefore, they cannot be raptured out before. So even just Revelation does prohibit the 6th-7th seal event from being pre-trib.

I guess I learn stuff everyday. Even have to correct my own posts in the same thread. Oh well. I hope you all forgive me. Hopefully I have shown how the 6th seal events cannot be pre-trib. Which is the only point I wanted to make.

I have written a lot of detail that can easily be torn apart if wrong. RT, I did not necessarily go into detail on all you wrote. Instead, I presented a whole different perspective. You and other can then compare the two and see how they agree and how they disagree. We can then get into more details if you want. The fact is we could spend a good amount of time going over all this. It would be a fun time too.

I thank you for your work put in so far. Hopefully you are thankful for my work too. Maybe others will enjoy both our writings. Again I do not seek to put forth any writing here that is anti pre-trib. I simply am trying to make the case that the 6th seal is not compatible as the pre-trib rapture. One of the other trib positions does believe this and that debate is for the debate forum section or another thread.

I do think the original question was a valid one. The first five seals are not unique to the end times exactly. False christs, wars, earthquakes, pestilence, famine, death, martyrs have all been going on for 2,000 years. The 6th seal is something altogether different. We do have solar and lunar eclipses but not the sign of the Son of Man sitting on the throne in heaven and all the world seeing him.

Which reminds me I forgot something. In Revelation 6, the son and father are sitting on thrones. In Revelation 19, Jesus is on a horse. This does not match up. That is a significant difference. Also, Revelation 16 mentions Armageddon by name and everybody agrees Revelation 19 is the battle of Armageddon too. So they match up tightly.

If I had more time, I would keep going. But, I have written enough. It is past midnight for me. Hope what I wrote helps somebody.

[morpheus]

I also kind of skipped over the Revelation 14 two harvests. I do think they are significant but not to the point I was making.

But just in case one was wondering. I think the two harvests link to the beginning and end of the coming, or appearing, of Jesus - Rev 6-7 at the beginning and to the Rev 10-11, 16, and 19 at the end. During this coming, Jesus meets us in the air in heaven which he is bringing with him, and commences his bombing air campaign. At the end of this coming, the ground invasion happens and heaven touches down at Jerusalem. Heaven is now on earth and we will live in the New Jerusalem and help him rule.

I have now tipped my hand as to my understand of the timing of the rapture. Nothing I wrote earlier had anything to do with one's timing of the rapture view verses another. I am now crossing over this line. Please forgive me and know I meant no ill will. I just felt I had to step in and correct the possibility that was mentioned that the pre-trib rapture could be at the 6th seal. It absolutely cannot be so for all the reasons stated. So all my previous writing stands without needing to reveal to anybody my understanding of the timing of the rapture. Good scholarship still stands.

I tried to quote straight scripture and compare, not bringing into it my own assumptions. I do reveal my what I think is the right way to sequence the Olivet Discourse and Revelation. But again, that is straight scripture and where I take a jump in sequence, try to always document the exact words that require a jump in time. No assumptions involved. At least, I do not think so. If I did, please let me know. I want to end up right.

On a very personal level, if I may say so, what I have just written out, about sequences and about matching up the sixth seal, is unique and ground breaking work. I would love to write a book detailing all this because in all my writing, I have not ever seen people take this approach and mention this detail this way. There are good books out there already (and bad ones) but what I wrote is unique. I just want people to know this work could be copyrighted. But feel free to copy this work to anybody who wants to learn. We have all received freely, so too should we freely give. Maybe someday I will get to actually publish a book. I do have offers.

I have a lot of other plates spinning. In fact, it might even be that you know of my other work from the tv industry or from the music industry. A million americans watch my tv show each week. My music is available in Walmart and other music venues and online in iTunes and Amazon. Our music was even in the top ten on the iTunes pop charts for a while. Currently I have two albums in the billboard charts.

But you probably don't know who I am. And neither do I know who any of you are. It is an interesting dynamic. While I do not keep my Christianity private, neither do I reveal in public all what I know about prophecy. Just know, God is using us and putting us in the places he wants us to be so he can use us. Many of us are not the gift pastors and college theologians people would expect. We are all in unique places. But we are watching and working together. I am not a perfect person and fall short of God's perfection. But God uses fallen but redeemed people. It is all he has to work with.

I wish I could do more when it comes to prophecy. Hopefully someday I will. But I also have another task that God has given me. My family is the biggest. But someday I would love to really join the fray publically in eschatology. With the internet, lots of progress is being made. Like Gabriel told Daniel, it is sealed up until the time of the end. I feel this unsealing is happening in our lifetime. We are figuring all this stuff out. The time of the end is near. I think we all feel the Spirit telling us this.

I say all this to encourage people. I don't know what job you do and want your training is, but I respect all of you. Someday I hope to meet you all in person. I just don't have time for prophecy conferences and such. Maybe you all do not have time to do those either. I suspect some of you are like me, busy with big companies and waging spiritual warfare in secular places. But just like I like to jam with other good musicians, I too like to jam prophecy with you all. Thank you for all of you and everything you all write. Even if I disagree with some of you, it is a help to me to see what other people think and say. I learn a lot from you all. Hope something I write helps you too.