King of kings

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

King of kings

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:24 am

I was just reading about Nebuchadnezzar and was surprised to find that he was called king of kings (Eze26:7)!

I found out that he is not the only one... Artaxerxes was also called king of kings in Ezra 7:12

Of course, Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords, with a capital K and L. (1Tim 6:15, Rev 17:4, Rev 19:16)

But is Jesus calling himself King of these earthly kings?

After doing some research, I don't think so. In fact, he is called Prince of the kings of the earth (Rev 1:5) NOT KING of kings of the earth as we would expect it to be. It would seem that Jesus is not so keen to be king over the kings of the earth...

So what kings are Jesus King over?

Look at Rev 1:6

and has made us to be kings and priests...

I believe this is the true meaning of Jesus being King of kings...He is King of us who have been made kings!

This blew my mind...

Indeed, Rev 15:3 says it beautifully in the KJV

Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou KING OF SAINTS (Gr hagios)

King of saints
King of kings

Hallelujah!
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
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Re: King of kings

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:41 pm

I hate bursting your bubble of euphoria, but is the KJV translation of the Greek correct in this case?

Here are all the other times that the same Greek word is found in the New Testament: -

Matthew 4:15, 10:5, 20:25, 24:9
Mark 10:42,
Luke 2:32, 21:24, 21:24, 21:25, 22:25
Acts 7:45, 9:15, 13:47, 14:2, 14:5, 15:3, 15:14, 15:19, 15:23, 21:11, 21:25, 26:17
Romans 3:29, 3:29, 4:17, 4:18, 9:24, 11:12, 11:13, 11:25, 15:12, 15:16, 15:18, 16:4
2 Corinthians 11:26
Galatians 2:12, 2:15
Ephesians 3:1
1 Timothy 2:7
1 Peter 4:3
Revelation 2:26, 11:9, 15:3, 16:19, 21:26, 22:2

and the translation of the Greek word ethnoón is generally associated with the Gentile Heathens and not with the Gentile Saints as the KJV translation of Revelation 15:3 suggests.

However, at the beginning of the Millennium Age the Son of Man, Jesus, will be made the King of all of the peoples of the earth and that when He is given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth, that they should worship Him.

The Saints on the other hand, since they are in Christ, are described as being considered as a people who will be/have been elevated to be like "Royalty" and Priests forever more.

Perhaps we need to be grounded in the reality of God and who we will become and not with those whose destiny is not like that of the Saints who will become Sons of the Living God and receive their inheritance of the Earth from Him at the time of the Great Judgement of all of the earth.
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Re: King of kings

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:50 pm

Jay, my bubble is not burst so easily :grin:

Of course, Jesus is King of everything and all will worship him eventually.

But it is clear that for the kings of the earth, the bible clearly says he is called their Prince (Rev 1:5). We do have to grapple with that. Why is Jesus their Prince and not théir King?

I also noted in my study that while the kjv uses hagios, the other versions uses ethnoos as you mentioned. Once again, that is not what the kjv "suggested" but is based clearly on which original text the version is using. I am not a kjv-only person but in cases of discrepancy, my tendency is to revert to the kjv... But I have no wish to debate kjv vs other versions here.

And the definition of hagios can be no doubt

Thayer's Definition
most holy thing, a saint

Strong's Definition

From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.


Translated Words
KJV (229) - Holy One, 4; holy, 161; misc, 3; saints, 61
NAS (232) - Holy, 92; Holy of Holies, 1; holy, 62; holy one, 5; holy ones, 1; holy place, 7; most holy, 1; saint, 1; saints, 59; saints', 1; sanctuary, 2
HCS (221) - *, 1; Holy, 53; The Holy, 1; a Holy, 1; a holy, 8; as saints, 2; by the Holy, 2; for saints, 1; from the Holy, 1; holy, 37; is holy, 5; most holy, 1; of gifts from the Holy, 1; of the Holy, 3; of the saints, 1; offered up are holy, 1; ones, holy, 1; saint, 1; saints, 52; set apart for God, 1; the Holy, 30; the One who is holy, 1; the holy, 2; the saints, 3; will be dedicated, 1; with a holy, 1; with the Holy, 8; you saints, 1
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
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Re: King of kings

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:02 pm

Keeping Alert,

You are using the Textus Receptus Greek text as your basis whereas my Interlinear is based on the NA27 Greek Text. The footnotes for the NA27 texts notes in my Interlinear suggests that NT0040 has only the slenderest support in the Greek Witnesses (296 2049, neither of which was available when the Textus Receptus was formed.

The NET Bible has the following footnote with "respect" to the "correct" translation: -

tc Certain mss (Ë47 a>*,2 C 1006 1611 1841 pc) read "ages" (ai)w/nwn, aiœnœn) instead of "nations" (e)qnw=n, ethnœn), which itself is supported by several mss a1 A 051 ª). The ms evidence seems to be fairly balanced, though ai)w/nwn has somewhat better support. The replacement of "ages" with "nations" is possibly a scribal attempt to harmonize this verse with the use of "nations" in the following verse. On the other hand, the idea of "nations" fits well with v. 4 and it may be that "ages" is a scribal attempt to assimilate this text to 1 Tim 1:17: "the king of the ages" (basileu\$ tw=n ai)w/nwn, basileus tœn aiœnœn). The decision is a difficult one since both scenarios deal well with the evidence, though the verbal parallel with 1 Tim 1:17 is exact while the parallel with v. 4 is not. The term "king" occurs 17 other times (most occurrences refer to earthly kings) in Revelation and it is not used with either "ages" or "nations" apart from this verse. Probably the reading "nations" should be considered original due to the influence of 1 Tim 1:17.


Now In my response to your OP, I had no intention of entering into a discussion over which particular translation was closest to being 'perfect' as all have their various weaknesses.

If what you are suggesting is true, then one would expect to find other occurrences of ethnoón NT:1484 has been replaced with NT:0040. A laborious task, to say the least, but on checking a few sample verses, it would appear that Rev 15:3 is a rare occurrence where NT:1484 and NT:0040 are found in the same location within the respective translations.

This then makes any claimed understanding tedious to justify because of the question mark that hangs over the respective translations on this verse.

Perhaps, because of this it would be better for us both to say that we have a "maybe" translation and understanding of what this verse is attempting to convey and as such are probably walking on very thin ice.
Last edited by Jay Ross on Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: King of kings

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:44 pm

Thanks Jay for accepting the possibility of either views.

But thinking from another angle.

Jesus said "My kingdom is NOT of this world." (John 18:36)

Perhaps that is reason that Jesus is the prince of the kings of this world and not the king (Rev 1:5)

Perhaps those well versed in Greek can confirm this with me...

"And has made us kings..." Rev 1:6... What tense is the "has made" in the Greek? From what I can gather, it is in the aorist tense, which in the simplest understanding is the English equivalent of the simple past tense but I am not a Greek expert and I stand corrected.

Jesus praying about his disciples..."They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:16
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2485
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: King of kings

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:09 am

Keeping Alert wrote:Thanks Jay for accepting the possibility of either views.


Thanks Keeping Alert, for also accepting the possibility of either view.

Keeping Alert wrote:But thinking from another angle.

Jesus said "My kingdom is NOT of this world." (John 18:36)

Perhaps that is reason that Jesus is the prince of the kings of this world and not the king (Rev 1:5)

Perhaps those well versed in Greek can confirm this with me...


Revelation 1:5 has the sense as being the "primary ruler" of the kings of the earth. There are 8 occurrences of árchoon in the new testament where the context of the first 4 occurrences is that of being the "primary/main ruler" while the last four occurrences are translated in the context of being a "prince." The 8 references: -

Matthew 9:18, Luke 8:41, 18:18, John 3:1, 12:31, 14:30, 16:11 and Revelation 1:5.

Note, there are 37 variations NT:0758, in the New Testament.

One would have to search further afield to draw any firm conclusion as to context of Rev 1:5. However, my sense is that árchoon in Rev 1:5 is used with the intent of 'chief ruler' over the kings of the earth. But that is just my 2 cents worth.
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Re: King of kings

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:28 am

One would have to search further afield to draw any firm conclusion as to context of Rev 1:5. However, my sense is that árchoon in Rev 1:5 is used with the intent of 'chief ruler' over the kings of the earth. But that is just my 2 cents worth.


Thanks Jay for your two cents worth. My two cents worth would be there should be some kind of distinguishing reason for God to use archoon of the kings of the earth once here and twice as king of kings in Rev 17:14 and 19:16.

When the elders of Israel wanted a king for themselves, God said this in 1Samuel 8:7 "they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them."

So God does not reign over Israel and thus not reign over any of the kings of Israel (in general) and definitely not over the kings of the earth.

But notice that he tells Abraham in Genesis 17:6 "kings shall come out of thee"

God obviously did not want any earthly kings for Israel but yet he proclaimed Abraham will produce kings!

What kings then?

There is definitely a group of kings that Jesus rightfully and joyfully reigns over... Us! Rev 1:6... We are kings that joyfully accept the reign of Jesus over us.

King of kings!
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2485
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: King of kings

Postby Exit40 on Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:25 am

With so much said about kings, not much is said about priests, which we will also be, a role I would much prefer I think.

metaph. of Christians, because, purified by the blood of Christ and brought into close intercourse with God, they devote their life to him alone and to Christ


God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: King of kings

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:12 am

Exit40 wrote:With so much said about kings, not much is said about priests, which we will also be, a role I would much prefer I think.

metaph. of Christians, because, purified by the blood of Christ and brought into close intercourse with God, they devote their life to him alone and to Christ


God Bless

David


David, I think already are (a priest)!

και εποιησεν (5656) ημας βασιλεις και ιερεις

And made (aorist) us kings and priest...

The simplest way to understand the aorist tense as far as I can understand Greek, is to think of the tense as a simple past tense.

You have already been made king and priest!

Though not explicitly mentioned in scripture but many believe we will be casting our crowns at the feet of Jesus just as the 24 elders did in Rev 4:10
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2485
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: King of kings

Postby Keeping Alert on Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:26 pm

David, your comments brought to mind a verse and some more study on my Greek :grin:

First the Greek... I said the tense in Rev 1:6 and "has made us kings and priests" is in the aorist tense... But more accurately it is in the Aorist Tense, Active Voice and Indicative Mood.

Which might be interpreted to say "Jesus (the active one doing) has actually really (indicative) made (aorist) us kings and priests)

Second the verse I recalled...

But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood... (1Peter 2:9)

υμεις δε γενος εκλεκτον βασιλειον ιερατευμα

The word translated royal is βασιλειον... Basilieos which is kingly, royal, regal (Thayer's)

From which we also see in this phrase

βασιλευς βασιλεων being interpreted King of kings

To get a better feel of 1Peter 2:9, we may this interpret "a royal priesthood" as "a kingly priesthood" and you individually a KING PRIEST! (Of course, Jesus is then King Priest of king priests)

How's that for food to meditate on! Amen!
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2485
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am


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