The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Keeping Alert on Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:39 pm

If we take a step back and ponder, we would have noticed that not one of us agree completely on prophetic interpretation of passages.

And then yesterday, I read this from Hosea 11

1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

2 But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images.

3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk, taking them by the arms; but they did not realise it was I who healed them.

4 I led them with cords of human kindness, with ties of love; I lifted the yoke from their neck and bent down to feed them.


Sounds familiar?

That is because Matthew uses Hosea 11:1 to quote in Matthew 2:15

15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."


It seems to me two absolutely contrary passages... In Hosea, Israel is described as a son who is rebellious...

Except, that The Lord gave specific insight to Matthew and Matthew lifted Hosea 11:1 out of context as it were to apply it to Jesus.

I am not saying there is error. What I am saying is that using our own understanding of how we interprete scriptures, we will not be able to understand prophecy (things future) clearly until it is revealed in its own time.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:33 pm

Interesting, KA. I'm thinking it's possible Matthew is focusing on the aspect of deliverance in both instances.

Reading further, Matt. 2:16-18, he apparently does the same thing relating the sorrow of the innocents to the sorrow of the captivity of the ten tribes mentioned in Jeremiah 31:15. Two different events; same sorrowful emotion.

That might be how we would say, "that reminds me of.....(such and such)" because of the emotion the event invokes.

Possible?
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:52 pm

Just wanted to add that something similar happened to me today. At the grocery store, a woman passed me and I immediately was back in time. The perfume that lingered was similar to the kind my mother always wore. Two different people; different locations; years apart; but the scent evoked a memory in the present time.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Jericho on Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:19 pm

Sounds to me like a typology. We can find a lot of these in the Old Testament concerning Christ. As an example, Abraham sacrificing Issac was a picture of the crucifixion of Christ. Scriptures can have dual implications.

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Typology%20of%20Issac%20and%20Jesus.htm

In some regards I would agree with you. Prophecy isn't always clear and we may know even realize it until after it happens. This was the case for the Jews who missed the Messiah. But sometimes prophecy is clear, such as Daniel prophesying when the Messiah would be cut off and the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD. Part of the problem with prophecy is people like to interpret it their own way and make it say anything they want. But Peter tells us no prophecy is of private interpretation. I prefer the literal reading of scripture, without ignoring context and figures of speech of course.
Last edited by Jericho on Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Keeping Alert on Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:46 pm

Thanks Abiding, Jericho.

I can understand the effort to give explanations on how Matthew could have used Hosea 11:1 to refer to Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, based on how we would interpret scriptures currently, there is no way at least for myself to have considered Hosea 11:1 in that manner.

What I am thinking therefore, there is a way of interpreting prophetic scriptures that is only God holds the key and only to those he reveals, it is made known.

I am sure Matthew must have been like the rest of the Jews who might have read Hosea 11:1 multiple times and had not the slightest clue that that it might be a reference of Jesus leaving Egypt. Then God revealed...

God is never wrong. His Word is perfect. Beautiful. It is our capability to understand is faulty. So while we want to take things literal, and within its context, it might not be so simple as understanding could be achieved with diligence in studying the word. Every statement might be a stand alone prophecy apart from its context just as Hosea 11:1 has been shown to be...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby shorttribber on Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:26 pm

Hi KA,
Ya got some good thinking going on...out of the box :wink:

As for me....I was looking into those texts about three months ago. I think it has to do with The Promised "Seed", and God's protection of His Promise to Abraham.
His "Seed(Christ)", as of One, was called out of Egypt.........The Oracles (Word) of God Protected and called out "IN" them from Bondage.
Then, that Living Oracle, Word , Seed was Called Out WITH, In the Prophetic Sense, Faithful Israel IN Him.

That's how I see it anyway....abidings idea makes sense too....and maybe it's a little of both ideas thrown in there.

But you're right...it is quite Impossible to Fully understand prophecy.............Until Perfection Comes.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:33 am

Could it not have to do with multiple fulfillments in a variety of ways? For example, God's prophecy and warning about the Israelites future desire for a King like the other nations. The fulfillment as a result is seen throughout scripture in the corruption, idolatry, and immorality evident in a variety of rulers from Judges, Priests, and Kings.

As these types of fulfillments progressed throughout the OT, it's doubtful that many saw them as relating to God's prophetic words about the outcome of such a demand.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:56 am

And so I searched and it seems there is a reasonable answer...

From http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/q ... att-214-15

This would take a book to answer well, but here's the gist:

Israel out of Egypt?

Israel in the Pentateuch was typological of God's people (cf. 1 Cor. 10)

(God's people would have to leave "Egypt", pass through the "water", follow God through the "wilderness", live by God's "law", etc.)
Israel failed to actually be God's people (cf. Hos. 11 and the rest of the OT)

There was to be an "Israel" some day who would actually fulfill God's Law, serve as a witness to the Gentiles, etc. But who? When? How? It seemed to be hopeless, with generation after generation falling flat on their faces. (Cf. Judges, the depressing progression through 2 Kings, etc.)

Christ out of Egypt?

Christ came be the True Israel, fulfilling Israel's mission, obeying God's Law

He also came as the firstborn among many brethren to blaze the trail. He was to lead the way for God's people, who would follow after Him and look like Him.

Matthew wanted to show that Christ was the True Israel. (He came out of Egypt, passed through the water, spent 40 days without food in the wilderness, fulfilled God's Law, etc.

The Hermeneutic

God's statement in Exodus 4:22-23 had Messianic undertones. Thus, while it did refer more immediately to Israel, they were merely a type of the coming "God's People" comprised of Christ and those in Christ, and so it more ultimately spoke of God's true people (Christ and the Church) being called "out of Egypt".

Hosea 11:1 referred back to that, maintaining the Messianic undertones, while showing that Israel did not succeed in being "God's son". In a sense, Hosea 11 then is Messianic as well, anticipating the True Israel who would be called "God's Son" and not fall flat on their faces.

Matthew 2:15 picks up on Hosea 11:1 and Exodus 4:22-23 showing Jesus as the "Son" that Israel failed to be

Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby shorttribber on Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:33 am

Keeping Alert wrote:Hosea 11:1 referred back to that, maintaining the Messianic undertones, while showing that Israel did not succeed in being "God's son". In a sense, Hosea 11 then is Messianic as well, anticipating the True Israel who would be called "God's Son" and not fall flat on their faces.

yep

This is very much in agreement with my thoughts on it...saying this...
shorttribber wrote:His "Seed(Christ)", as of One, was called out of Egypt.........The Oracles (Word) of God Protected and called out "IN" them from Bondage.Then, that Living Oracle, Word , Seed was Called Out WITH, In the Prophetic Sense, Faithful Israel IN Him.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:34 am

Interestingly, Wade Burleson posted a new article on his blog just this morning relating to this very subject.

After Jesus was born in Bethlehem, his parents took Him to Egypt to avoid the murderous plot of King Herod. Later, Jesus left Egypt with Joseph and Mary and settled in Nazareth. When Matthew recounts how Jesus was "called out of Egypt" (Matthew 2:15), he says that Christ coming out of Egypt fulfills the statement of Hosea 11:1 - "Out of Egypt I have called My Son."

Wait a minute! That Hosea 11:1 passage says:

"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son."
But the gospel writer (Matthew) says that this statement from Hosea is fulfilled in the life of Jesus Christ. In other words, Jesus becomes the new Israel in the New Covenant. Unlike Old Covenant Israel, Jesus fulfills the Law - every jot and tittle of it! There are some evangelicals who believe that "the church" has replaced Israel in the New Covenant. Not so. Jesus is the new Israel.


Jesus is the New Israel in God's New Agreement
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Jericho on Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:32 am

Interestingly, Wade Burleson posted a new article on his blog just this morning relating to this very subject.


Maybe he vists FP. :grin:
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:46 am

Jericho wrote:
Interestingly, Wade Burleson posted a new article on his blog just this morning relating to this very subject.


Maybe he vists FP. :grin:


Could be...could be... the internet sure makes the world a smaller place, doesn't it?
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:00 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Jericho wrote:
Interestingly, Wade Burleson posted a new article on his blog just this morning relating to this very subject.


Maybe he vists FP. :grin:


Could be...could be... the internet sure makes the world a smaller place, doesn't it?


Most interesting article. Thanks for sharing, Abiding. Another way to look at it is that God sure knows what is happening in the world and uses different parts of the body of Christ to edify one another in amazing ways :a3:
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:44 am

Keeping Alert wrote: Another way to look at it is that God sure knows what is happening in the world and uses different parts of the body of Christ to edify one another in amazing ways


:a3:

Our God is an Awesome God
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby shorttribber on Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:58 am

:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:06 pm

The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly......

St. John 4:21....Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father...

22...Ye worship ye know not what: ........we know what we worship: ........for salvation is of the Jews...

23...BUT THE HOUR COMETH, AND NOW IS, WHEN THE TRUE WORISHIPPERS MUST WORSHIP THE FATHER IN Spirit and in Truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him...

24....God is a SPIRIT: AND THEY THAT WORSHIP HIM MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.....

This is why He has sent the Holy Spirt to each of us.....Go to Jerusalem and tarry untill you receive the Promise of the Father.....The promise of the Holy Spirit......

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Fataher hath bestowed upon us, that we should be callled the sons of God:
Therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2...Beloved, Now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: But we know that , when he shall appear, we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is....

That is why He sent back the Promise of the Father...The Holy Spirit .....that will lead and guide us unto all truth.....That is why the devil does not wont the church to believe that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for today....

Who can know a man but the spirit of man.......But God the Father has sent the Holy Spirit to all believers....that we may know Him....AND TRUTH....HE IS TRUTH

Jesus said...you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.....Thy Word is true...Who can know a man but the spirit of man.....But God has sent us...the church His Holy Spirit that will lead us and guide us into all truth...That is why the devil does not want the church to believe that God has give us...the believer, the Holy Spirit of Truth...You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.....
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit if for the believer today.....God the Father has sent back to us the Baptism of the Holy spirit...but the devil soes not want the Church to believe......OR RECEIVE.....


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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:44 am

Hi Keeping Alert,

Just wanted to say that I agree that the prophetic word is something that we will not ever totally understand completely until it is fulfilled. I think that is the key to Matthew's understanding, he saw it fulfilled in Christ.

Matthew 2:13-15
13 Now when they had gone, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up! Take the Child and His mother and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him.”
14 So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt.
15 He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”


Hosea 11:1
1 When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.


How did the Lord fulfill the words of the prophet? We do not have to guess, the passage tells us. Mary And Joseph flee from Egypt with Jesus. Just like the Israelites fled from Egypt in their youth. (When God loved them, when they weren't rebellious.)

I think the point is that Christ embodies the hope for Israel, that their only hope for true deliverance from the bondage of sin and rebellion lies in God's Son- Jesus Christ.

You know what they say about hindsight? We see clearly right? That is what Matthew is doing, and one day we will also see clearly in hindsight when the end times prophecies are fulfilled.

By the way I think this thread kind of proves your point.

RT
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Exit40 on Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:29 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Hosea 11:1
1 When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.

I think the point is that Christ embodies the hope for Israel, that their only hope for true deliverance from the bondage of sin and rebellion lies in God's Son- Jesus Christ.


Hi RT. Excellent point, but our Father sees it it is more than hope, it is the reality of Prophecy unfulfilled in that time. I wonder about the word 'hope', is it possible for God to hope when He already knows the end of each and every circumstance. Certainly it is an important word for us, charged with our own salvation in Christ. For a believer it should also mean 'certain knowledge' as Christ is our salvation, coming out of Egypt with us, leading us by the hand, into salvation ultimately. As believers, His Sons, we suffer the wilderness, all the way through the Crucifixion, already accomplished, and now we await our Christ to be resurrected with Him. Our Father, His Son is Christ, and us in Him, already done and delivered, except for the fullness of time which we have not experienced yet. Our hope is that we will know what our Father and His Son Christ already know. WE are already there. And WE are soo loved, so out of Egypt we go, holding the hand of Jesus into the wilderness, as we know not with certainty what tomorrow brings. But we know the end. We just don't know how to get there from here.

crosimoto wrote:
I pray that we get out of His way, that the fullness of His will would be made evident in our lives.


God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:47 pm

Exit40 said:
Hi RT. Excellent point, but our Father sees it it is more than hope, it is the reality of Prophecy unfulfilled in that time. I wonder about the word 'hope', is it possible for God to hope when He already knows the end of each and every circumstance.


Of course our God sees it as truth that is fulfilled in Christ, I was not insinuating that it is God's hope, rather I was trying to point out that it is Israel's hope and yes ours as well. God already knows the outcome, as you have so aptly pointed out. I think Matthew was pointing out to his fellow Jews that Jesus is the object of their hope for true deliverance from the bondage of sin. In fulfilling the words of Hosea, Jesus was proving to be their leader, their messiah who holds the answer to their spiritual need for salvation.

Romans 8:22-25
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.


We hope for the fulfillment of the reality of what God has told us will one day come.

Hope this clarifies

RT
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Exit40 on Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:33 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
Of course our God sees it as truth that is fulfilled in Christ, I was not insinuating that it is God's hope, rather I was trying to point out that it is Israel's hope and yes ours as well.


I think that was more for my own musings about hope and certain knowledge, than a comment for you to respond to. No insinuation intended.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: The Impossibility of Understanding Prophecy Clearly

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:23 am

Exit40 wrote:
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
Of course our God sees it as truth that is fulfilled in Christ, I was not insinuating that it is God's hope, rather I was trying to point out that it is Israel's hope and yes ours as well.


I think that was more for my own musings about hope and certain knowledge, than a comment for you to respond to. No insinuation intended.

God Bless You

David

:itsgood:

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