The Rebellion

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: The Rebellion

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:05 am

keithareilly wrote: The Agape love you described is not limited to Christians, the word was in existence prior to Christ's visitation and therefore, described love that was already known among the Greeks. There is plenty of reason to believe that this Agape love that was already known and still exists today even among unbelievers will wax cold for many believers and unbelievers alike.


It doesn't matter that the word Agape was known, what matters is what the word is Truly Describing. Please go thru each place where the That word is used, I suppose you must have a Strong's Concordance that will show you each place. There is no question whatsoever that it does not nor Can Not be used as Any Love that is Operable in Any Way in Unbelievers.
Please do check that.....you will surely find that I am correct in saying so.
And That kind of Love did not have it's Origin at the first Advent of Christ, I never said it did....it's Origin is with God, who IS Love...and He has No Beginning or End.

The Greek word just Describes what it Is....Not where that Love Began, simply because the Greeks LEARNED of it at Some Appointed Time.

I can use the word Billionaire, but that does not mean I can Apply that to myself :alrighty:

I do agree that there are those that At Present do not Have Agape Love, but can in the future Obtain it by the Spirit of God by receiving Faith in Christ.

keithareilly wrote:Second, only verse 10 says it is limited to believers...........There is plenty of reason to believe that this Agape love that was already known and still exists today even among unbelievers will wax cold for many believers and unbelievers alike.

Just because of what I've already stated, and if you will check, you will see that it Is Proven that the Love Described Limits it's Scope to Believers Only.

You will need to provide Scriptural Proof of Agape Love Operable IN and Through Unbelievers to have any solid foundation to support your opinion on that.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6050
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The Rebellion

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:36 am

Shorttribber,

If Agape love did not exist outside of Christianity, then the word would not have existed prior to be Christ's visitation. It would have been something new in the world. As the word already existed, it described something already in the world. If Christians were the only one who knew Agape Love, then the word would have come from Christianity. It does not. Yes, we Christians are to aspire to Agape Love, and, those who do not believe who aspire to Agape love are very likely to believe in Christ once they hear the word. Consider the woman who washed Jesus's feet, she was forgiven much because she loved much. She loved much before she met Christ, even thought she was a prostitute and looked down upon, she loved much. Love exists in the world in the form of Agape love even outside Christ. If this were not so the term Agape love would have originate from Christianity. Do I think those who believe and choose Agape love are likely to believe in Christ? Yes. But before they here the word, they may still exhibit Agape Love.

For myself, Agape love was not possible until I knew Christ, but I am not a noble person.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The Rebellion

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:46 am

Shortribber,

Strong's is a Christian oriented document. It researches things through the Christianity lens. I would not expect it to yield anything other than Christian orientation on its research. To use it to research something Christian oriented is its proper use. It is not an Authority outside its scope.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The Rebellion

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:21 am

keithareilly wrote:Shortribber,

Strong's is a Christian oriented document. It researches things through the Christianity lens. I would not expect it to yield anything other than Christian orientation on its research. To use it to research something Christian oriented is its proper use. It is not an Authority outside its scope.

Keith


The Strong's was suggested so that you may have access to Every place the word Agape is used, or where the word "Love"
,other than Agape is used. it does not matter how Perfect it is as a Lexicon. Choose any good lexicon then and you will see the Same Meaning as that described in the Strongs.

keithareilly wrote:If Agape love did not exist outside of Christianity, then the word would not have existed prior to be Christ's visitation.

Again, I did not say that Agape did not exist Outside of Christianity. but I will say that it Does not exist Outside of Christ and The Goodhead NOW.
It has Always Existed IN God By God and Through God, Abraham Had it BECAUSE He HAD REAL FAITH , and FAITH Works by Love, Agape Love.

keithareilly wrote:If Agape love did not exist outside of Christianity, then the word would not have existed prior to be Christ's visitation. It would have been something new in the world.


Again, it did not matter that the Word existed before Christ, it is just that NOW that Love is Only Operable By the Spirit of God Through Faith IN Christ. Before Christ it WAS Operable through Those who Had Faith in God and His Promises.

Now that Christ Has Come, That Love is Only Operable Through Him and In Him.

Please, prove your assertions with scripture, you will find None that support the idea that Agape Love is a Capable Act in Any Unbeliever.

That is one reason why God Himself did not even Require that Kind of Love from ANY MAN from the very Beginning.

Where it says, "Love the Lord thy God with All your heart", That word Love, Is NOT Agape Love. He Knows Full Well that Not One Human is Capable Of THAT Love, Only He is Able to Shed That Kind of love in Our Hearts AS Believers.....By His Spirit Only.

Please look at Each Place where these Two Kinds of Love are mentioned....and it has Zero to do with the accuracy or inaccuracy of the Strong's Concordance.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6050
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The Rebellion

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:33 pm

Shorttribber,

Matthew 5:43-48
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,[i] what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

God makes the sun rise and the rain fall on the fields of the wicked exactly as he does for the righteous, no difference.
He is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe.

Will not the unbelieving parent give their life for their child?
Does not the unbelieving soldier fall on the grenade to save his brother in arms?

God is the source of all love. He rains it down on all of us not just we believers.
Christ is out Savior. He is the Agape love of the Father incarnate.
He is the savior of all men but especially those who believe, but all men.
All love is from God. Each person who loves, loves because he is gifted with love from God.
To say God withholds Agape love from the unbeliever is like saying Christ did not die for us while we were yet sinners.
No, God gives Agape love to us first while we are yet sinners, so that we will respond to his love.


Enough Said about Agape Love. That is not the topic.
Since we do not agree on Agape love, then I will rest on the initial argument in my previous post.

From above ...
Matthew 10:9-14
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Note that the word apostasy is not used here. While falling away is the translation used for both Matthew and Thessalonians, here the word used for falling away is describing only believers. The word used means cause to stumble. The word in Thessalonians means change of stance. The word in 2 Thessalonians 2 does not mean sin or stumbling as the word in Mathew 24:10 does mean sin or stumbling. These verses in Matthew are talking about falling away from the faith, sinning, stumbling. The verse in 2 Thessalonians 2 is talking about a change of position, a change of foundation, a change of understanding. A change that does not imply sin or stumbling.

The verses in Matthew and in Thessalonians are not talking about the same event.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The Rebellion

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:54 am

hi keith,
sorry for not commenting yesterday.....tied up all day....hope to comment later tonight

bless ya
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6050
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The Rebellion

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:41 pm

Shortribber,

Sure no problem. Kind of busy myself. By the way, I did read the verses regarding Agape love as you asked.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The Rebellion

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jul 17, 2015 2:41 pm

keithareilly wrote:Shortribber,

Sure no problem. Kind of busy myself. By the way, I did read the verses regarding Agape love as you asked.

Keith

Thanx keith and thanx for reading those,
The discussion should not leave the subject of That Love though as you've suggested we do. It is an integral part of understanding Apostasy, since Jesus himself said, "If you Love me, you will Keep my commandments".

Now ponder this also, when Jesus said that, even then the word he used was Not Agape.

so, I beg you to reconsider what you've said here...
keithareilly wrote:Enough Said about Agape Love. That is not the topic.


The mention of this woman....
keithareilly wrote: Consider the woman who washed Jesus's feet, she was forgiven much because she loved much. She loved much before she met Christ, even thought she was a prostitute and looked down upon, she loved much.

Her Love to Christ is recorded below...
Luke 7
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she........ loved...... much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

The word describing Her Love Was and Is Not Agape Love.
keithareilly wrote:For myself, Agape love was not possible until I knew Christ, but I am not a noble person.

None of us were, and That was Not Possible for Any Of Us Before The Holy Spirit WORKS IN US and Through us.

The Holy Spirit Alone is Responable for that Work and Gift of Love.
This IS Communion WITH God, This IS FELLOWSHIP With Him, This is The FRUIT OF Righteousness. And it is Only Operable Through Him, it Is His Love Only, and we are Unspeakably Privileged to Share/Participate/Communicate in That Love.

A good read of l John chapter 4 is very helpful also.

keithareilly wrote:Will not the unbelieving parent give their life for their child? Does not the unbelieving soldier fall on the grenade to save his brother in arms?

Neither of these examples require Agape Love either.
keithareilly wrote:God is the source of all love. He rains it down on all of us not just we believers.

Yes, I agree. He Freely does Agape Everyone, Believer and Unbeliever.
But, He is Only Able to COMMUNICATE That Love THROUGH Those that are JOINED TO IT....THROUGH a Vehicle, Vessel, Conduit of His Living Water that He Has FELLOWSIP With, those vessels being, The Holy Spirit, and Those Born Of That Spirit.

This is That Love, this is That Fellowship, This is That Communion that "Waxeth Cold". When a Believer begins to "Smite His FELLOWservants" and That Love is Forfeited and Exchanged FOR Apostasy, AND Rebellion Against God.

And That is what Jesus Does describe in Mathew24, here....
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
and here.......
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Hopefully you will not be bothered by my continuance on the subject of Agape Love, and How it Does and Will Effect Apostasy, And Rebellion Against God.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6050
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The Rebellion

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jul 17, 2015 3:53 pm

Shorttribber,

I don't agree that Mathew 10 and 2 Thessalonians 2 are talking about the same event.
The word from Strong's used in Matthew is this word "skandalizó", not "Apostasy".

skandalizó: to put a snare (in the way), hence to cause to stumble, to give offense
Original Word: σκανδαλίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: skandalizó
Phonetic Spelling: (skan-dal-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I cause to stumble
Definition: I cause to stumble, cause to sin, cause to become indignant, shock, offend.

It is a very different word with a very different meaning. This word means to cause to stumble and sin.
This word is more applicable to what is happening today than it was during the Revolutionary War.


Apostasia from Strongs is this:
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.
HELPS Word-studies

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."



Apostasia does not imply wrong doing, sin, or stumbling. 2 Thessalonians 2 is not describing the same things Mathew 10 is describing.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: The Rebellion

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:44 am

keith,
First, thank you for allowing me to go on further about Agape without impatience on your part toward my desire to continue on a bit longer at it.

There are two different words used, yes, one a falling away clearly mentioned. And there other (in Thes.) not as clearly defined probably. But should we look at other words that could assist us in understanding that Apostasy from the Gospel of Christ is what that "Shift from Standing" implies?

We should also look at the Context, just as Abiding has previously pointed out.

the text again....

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that .............................man of sin............................. be revealed, the son of perdition;...........................................................................7 For the........................................ mystery of iniquity..................................... doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And........ then shall that Wicked........ be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of........ unrighteousness......... in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Let's look at the Context then of the "leaving, from a previous standing." You are saying that a Primarily "Political Standing" is what we are to believe has Already Occurred. And Because of THAT " leaving from a previous standing", the Effect has been an Ongoing Spiritual "Falling Away", and will grow worse such as many scriptures describe.

I think I understand that idea.

But, can we look at another kind of "leaving, from a previous standing" that would allow the word apostasía to Also be Understood as something Other than a "Political" Revolt, Departure, or Rebellion?

This text should be considered I think....
Eph 6
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;


Could it not Also then be concluded that a "Departure form Standing" as is Taught in the Above text may be what 2 Thes. describes?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
shorttribber
 
Posts: 6050
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: The Rebellion

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:44 am

Shorttribber
Could it not Also then be concluded that a "Departure form Standing" as is Taught in the Above text may be what 2 Thes. describes?


Sure it could. What I am saying is the change in standing is so vast, on such a scale, that it resulted in political change. Apostasy means: a change of standing of a type that challenges the authority of the established order and on sufficient scale can overthrow the established order.

Acts 21:21
They are all zealous for the law, 21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (Apostasy) Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.


The verse concerning Apostasy in Acts 21:21 describes Paul being accused of teaching Jewish Christians to stop following (Apostasy) Moses. The Jews in power saw Christians just as they saw Christ, teaching ideas that were a threat to their power over the people. Indeed, under Christ we are free from the Law and the wicked did not like us to be free, they wanted us enslaved spiritually, through political enslavement to the Law where sin gains its power over us. Christianity was considered an Apostasy to the established order of the day. The same type of challenges to authority should be visible from the Apostasy found in 2 Thessalonians 2.

As a citizen of the USA, born and raised here, becoming a Christian caused me to rethink and change everything I believed. You might say, that what I was taught as an "American" was religious indoctrination on how to believe. For example, "All men are created equal". All men are not created equal, there are people born with handicaps, some are smarter than others, etc. The truth is: all men are equal from God's perspective each with different talents and abilities. Yet, that is not what we are taught. The ideas of the Revolutionary War are replacing religious ideas. From a Christian perspective, we are all subjects to God and those whom God places over us. The Revolutionary War turned this upside down, saying leaders are subject to the people.

Consider this, Homosexuals have been given the right to marry in the USA because they are equal under Constitutional Law. The ideas enshrouded in our constitution have become a religion competing with Christianity, labeling Christians a hate group. Are we not now considered a threat under federal law?

What we are seeing today is the use of the ideas from the Revolutionary War, such as all men are created equal, as a religion telling people they are free to sin under Constitutional (verses Mosaic) Law. And through this legal freedom to sin people are being enslaved to sin. This is exactly the type of Apostasy attributed to Paul by the Jewish Authorities in Acts 21:21. In Acts, the Apostasy is about being free from the Law and enslavement to sin, Today it about being free under Law to sin and become enslaved to sin.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 2221
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Previous

Return to General Bible Study & Debate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests