Christian author John Perry accused of child molestation

[Abiding in His Word]

Co-Author Of Mike Huckabee Books Was Accused Of Child Molestation In Two Legal Cases

Prominent Christian author John Perry, who has also co-authored a book with Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore, has been accused of child molestation in two separate lawsuits.

“As a result of the investigation, the allegations of sexual battery were sustained, but it was determined that the statute of limitations had tolled, barring prosecution. The victim was age 18 when she first disclosed the allegations to non-law enforcement and said at that time she did not want the matter reported to the Tennessee Department of Children’s Services or the police.”

In a second series of lawsuits brought in a county court in Tennessee, and related to the same alleged acts of child molestation, Austin Davis, a former parishioner of Covenant Presbyterian Church in Nashville, claims that the church covered up Perry’s alleged acts of child molestation and launched a campaign to silence and harass Davis.

link

[GodsStudent]

Why do we continually have to see the name "Christian" associated with these people? When Christ returns, indeed, I see why He asked...will He find ANY faithful? My heart just breaks into a million pieces at all the self serving LAODICEANs out there.....pharasees/sad you sees......
These people who claim to love Christ and accept money to tell others about it and how to do it.....some are carrying false credentials.....they have their handy dandy "Isn't the Lord so great" cards to whip out and show all of us.....but aren't self honest enough to say and admit that they are NOT living UNDER THE AUTHORITY of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. If they aren't, and all that takes is introspection....then they shouldn't be out there telling us how to do it....and how it is...and all about it.....PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
That's like asking someone whose been divorced 12 times how to avoid divorce......
Only someone who has brought their marriage under God's reign and put Him at the head of it and turned theirs around thru Him can properly witness to others about how it's done.

I am so sick of these lukewarm perpetrators.

[keithareilly]

The apostle Paul, formerly, Saul the murderer and persecutor of the church, could testify personally to the magnitude of God's grace through the forgiveness and grace God allotted him.

Two types of people, those who see the grace God allotted Paul and want it for themselves, and those who say: "Who are you, Saul, you murderer, to be instructing us about morality?

Perhaps we should discard everything Paul wrote.


Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

:cry: Why do we continually have to see the name "Christian" associated with these people?

It's definitely not only Christians but the ones we least expect to see involved in these types of sexual sins against the most vulnerable.

My local newspaper reported that a government employee accidentally discovered more than 11,000 untested rape kits in Detroit, some had been there 30 yrs. That means there's a lot of sexual offenders who have not been apprehended based on available evidence from the victims and correctly reported to law enforcement.

Apparently cover ups benefit those persons or churches who have the most to lose by a tarnished reputation. What they don't realize, imo, is that hiding and/or covering the serious sins reflects an environment that may not be protected by those who should be watching out for the members.

[Abiding in His Word]

Forgiveness and justice are not mutually exclusive. Taking the appropriate and necessary steps to report and prosecute abuse is not unforgiving. It is in fact the most loving thing someone can do, because it can help to protect other potential victims. Not reporting is the equivalent of enabling the perpetrator to continue.

[keithareilly]

Abiding wrote

Forgiveness and justice are not mutually exclusive.

Justice [and vengeance for the victims] can be executed by God outside the Judicial system.
See topic Mercy, Justice, Vengeance

Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

Justice [and vengeance for the victims] can be executed by God outside the Judicial system.

Keith, we went through this very same discussion in the link you provided. I'm of the opinion you are not understanding who Paul was relative to what he did. Christianity technically became prominent when the 120 in the upper room received the Holy Spirit and began to proclaim the gospel. Shortly afterward, in Acts 4, we learn there was a rapid growth of believers who numbered 5,000. Also in Acts 4, we see how these conversions of the Jews to Christianity was a threat to the Jews who were still Torah abiding and they were members of the Sanhedrin which was the legal body with authority over the Jews except for the authority to administer the death penalty. Roman governors in the first and second centuries concluded that to be a Christian was in itself a subversive act, because it entailed a refusal to sacrifice to the gods of Rome.

Here we see them using their authority to arrest Peter & John (and others) and put them in jail. The next day, they gathered for a "trial" and afforded them the opportunity to defend themselves:

Act 4:5 On the next day, their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem;
Act 4:6 and Annas the high priest was there, and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of high-priestly descent.

Peter acknowledges he is on trial and being subject to legal interrogation:

Act 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of the people,
Act 4:9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well,

In Paul's letter to the Church at Philippi, he states his credentials in order to make them understand why he persecuted the Christians as he did. He makes special note of his Hebrew heritage and that by his obedience to the "law" he is found righteous and blameless. He lists his birth, education, and conformity to the law as reasons for his zeal in persecuting those who were deemed to be heretics. Paul was in compliance with both the Roman law and the Court of the Temple or Sanhedrin.

But following his conversion, we again see Paul appealing to the Roman law which forbade scourging of a Roman citizen:

Act 22:25 But when they stretched him out with thongs, Paul said to the centurion who was standing by, "Is it lawful for you to scourge a man who is a Roman and uncondemned?"

So with those points in mind, we see why Paul confessed his gratitude for the mercy shown him. It was because of his ignorance; i.e. he was acting in compliance with the Roman law as a citizen and the Jewish Sanhedrin as a Pharisee of the law. We might see this as the difference between intentional and unintentional sin in the Mosaic Law. Both required a sacrifice by the High Priest, but in this case, Jesus was the High Priest and had already paid the sacrifice for Paul's sin. We might see the difference between intentional and unintentional when we read of the deliberate deception of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts. 5.

So when Paul advocates obedience to the laws that govern the people, he truly followed them himself however misguided his zeal was.

Rom 13:4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

We must interpret and understand the transition from the OT law to the NT period of grace and it's progress among the Jews first and then to the Gentiles. Even after walking with Jesus for 3 yrs., we find Peter clinging to the OT law when he couldn't comprehend the vision of unclean animals.

In conclusion, Paul always abided by the law and advocated for the legal process. That process runs throughout the Bible as well as the principle of providing witnesses to determine either the truth or false accusations of an alleged crime.

The victims of crime may forgive the offense against them; God may apply mercy and forgiveness upon repentance; and the law must apply appropriate penalties in it's jurisdiction according to the seriousness of the crime.

[Abiding in His Word]

Justice [and vengeance for the victims] can be executed by God outside the Judicial system.

Btw, it was God who established the Judicial system.

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

The law is not God's only tool for implementing Justice or Punishment.

Merriam-Webster defines apostasy as:
1 renunciation of a religious faith
2 abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

What concerns me about this and the Duggar thread is that it appears that you are labeling sexual sins as apostasy.
You posted this under apostasy, of what apostasy are you saying these people are guilty?


Keith

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

I went back and reread some of your previous post in the Duggar thread.

John 17:15-23
15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.[a] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them[b] in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself,[c] that they also may be sanctified[d] in truth. 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.


Matthew 5:21-26
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[c] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults[d] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[e] of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.[f]

When I read this, I understand that Christ wants us to be one. Not society at large, but the believers. It is pretty descriptive as how intensely He wants us to be one. That is as the Father and Christ are one so are we to be one. This requires reconciliation with each other when there is a wrong. What Christ is telling us is to be reconciled with each other and avoid being turned over to the legal system of the world. If we cannot reconcile with each other, then we deserve to be turned over to the legal system.

Christ desires us to be one; to handle offenses among ourselves, and warns us to pursue the right relationships with each other and become one lest we be turned over to the legal system.

I do not see this as in conflict with adhering to the laws of state.
In this country, the criminal system, not the civil system, has jurisdiction for jailing people. Therefore, in the USA, Christ is addressing crimes for which the statute of limitation has not yet expired. And Christ is telling us to be reconciled with those to whom we have committed a crime against for the purpose of avoiding being turned over to the legal system for expiation of these crimes.


One might say that covering up a crime is against the laws of the state. To that I respond I when I have to choose between the state and Christ's commands, I seek to choose to Christ's commands.

I hope this helps in your pursuit of belief systems and frameworks.

Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

Christ desires us to be one; to handle offenses among ourselves, and warns us to pursue the right relationships with each other and become one lest we be turned over to the legal system.

I do not see this as in conflict with adhering to the laws of state.
In this country, the criminal system, not the civil system, has jurisdiction for jailing people. Therefore, in the USA, Christ is addressing crimes for which the statute of limitation has not yet expired. And Christ is telling us to be reconciled with those to whom we have committed a crime against for the purpose of avoiding being turned over to the legal system for expiation of these crimes.

One might say that covering up a crime is against the laws of the state. To that I respond I when I have to choose between the state and Christ's commands, I seek to choose to Christ's commands.

All 50 states have mandatory laws regulating the necessity of reporting crimes against children. Some refer specifically to the types of professions and/or relationships that are required due to the proximity with children. For example, those who are photographers or film processors are required to report child porn. You will notice on that page that 26 states currently mandate clergy reporting suspected or confirmed child abuse. These mandatory reporting laws are updated from time to time as reports and failures come to light.

Based on my previous post that gives clear evidence of legal, judicial laws being implemented and endorsed by God, we cannot in good conscience maintain that these laws regarding any type of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, or child abuse are in contradiction to God's Word. They are to be obeyed for the protection of the innocent and vulnerable of our country.

I hope this helps in your pursuit of belief systems and frameworks.

I really appreciate your effort Keith, but I'm still of the belief that suppression, secrecy, minimization and denial may be foundational in some belief systems and they contribute to the unfortunate coverups we see among believers and are justified by improper use of scripture. Such excuses are:

Do not judge
But for the grace of God...
We are all sinners saved by grace
God wants restoration
Grace and mercy

When the pendulum swings in the opposite direction, we hear of transparency, accountability, depravity and general "sin-sniffing" among believers.

Righteous judgment requires careful analysis of each case to determine the intent, effects, and evidence and what penalty, if any, is warranted by law. The same punishment is not imposed for the theft (for example) of a quart of milk that will be imposed for the theft of a 2014 Lincoln Continental. That's why Jesus uses strong words to the Pharisees about greater condemnation due for devouring widows houses with the pretense of praying or counseling.

That's why crimes against children must be turned over to the appropriate agencies to determine the course of action necessary.

[keithareilly]

Abiding wrote

Based on my previous post that gives clear evidence of legal, judicial laws being implemented and endorsed by God, we cannot in good conscience maintain that these laws regarding any type of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, or child abuse are in contradiction to God's Word. They are to be obeyed for the protection of the innocent and vulnerable of our country.

And ...

Righteous judgment requires careful analysis of each case to determine the intent, effects, and evidence and what penalty, if any, is warranted by law. The same punishment is not imposed for the theft (for example) of a quart of milk that will be imposed for the theft of a 2014 Lincoln Continental. That's why Jesus uses strong words to the Pharisees about greater condemnation due for devouring widows houses with the pretense of praying or counseling.

That's why crimes against children must be turned over to the appropriate agencies to determine the course of action necessary.

I agree that we need righteous judgment.
I don't think a legal system that promotes homosexual marriage can be said to be completely endorsed by God.
The legal system is not the place to find righteous judgment.

Christ acknowledged the unrighteousness of legal systems in the parable of the woman and the unrighteous judge.
What I understand him to be saying is we are to be righteous and the ones who make those righteous analyses and judgments before it ever gets to the legal system.

When we fail to do that, then the legal systems are required to intervene. That is what I see today, our failure consequently the legal system taking over.

Keith

[GodsStudent]

Seriously??? !!!!



We do collectively have a system in place FOR CHRISTIANS and it's called the legal system and we are all under it and for good reason. I have a VERY hard time believing anyone thinks Christ would want us to handle child molestation in the church and keep it out of our legal system. I can't even believe anyone would suggest such a thing.

Indeed God's Righteous Judgment can and is often found in our flawed legal system. That's why we so often hear of one person committing a crime and after going into rehab or some other form of reformation in their personal life (with remorse, sincerity and a humble heart), being given a surprisingly lenient sentence...The Lord is clearly involved in our flawed legal system and we do certainly see evidence of miracles happening and forgiveness direct from the Lord being reflected (on occasion) and in a case by case basis.

We report, He (as well as the judges and a jury of our piers) decides.....

[Abiding in His Word]

I don't think a legal system that promotes homosexual marriage can be said to be completely endorsed by God.
The legal system is not the place to find righteous judgment.

The governing authorities are to be obeyed because they are established by God. If a judgment is made that contradicts the Word of God, then we must obey God rather than man.

So...in the matter of homosexual marriage...we won't agree with that judgement by the Supreme Court and it doesn't pertain to those who aren't homosexual. Homosexual's, on the other hand, must decide for themselves whether they will obey God or man. If they are not Christians, their choice will likely be different than those who are Christians. The law is not saying that homosexuals must get married; just that if they do, they will be entitled to the same privileges as heterosexual marriages have.

Likewise, if the law passes stricter laws on fraud or tax evasion, it won't affect you if you are paying your state and property taxes and don't plan any fraudulent activities. Or tougher laws against domestic violence only affect those who are guilty of that crime.

.... for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Christ acknowledged the unrighteousness of legal systems in the parable of the woman and the unrighteous judge.
What I understand him to be saying is we are to be righteous and the ones who make those righteous analyses and judgments before it ever gets to the legal system.

I have no problem with making a righteous analyses and judgment regarding the spiritual implications. If it is indeed righteous, it will include notifying the appropriate agencies for their analyses regarding the legal implications. I think you will agree that just as law enforcement and federal government personnel are not experts regarding spiritual, scriptural principles, pastors and other believers are not experts regarding the law. That's why we have trust in both who have hopefully been educated in their area of expertise.

When we fail to do that, then the legal systems are required to intervene. That is what I see today, our failure consequently the legal system taking over.

There are certainly some circumstances where we should try to resolve issues between the two parties involved. Here's a personal example that happened two days ago. A young woman backed out of her parking place without looking carefully behind her and hit my car. We both got out of our cars and she was very apologetic and obviously frightened. After carefully looking at the rear of my car and analyzing the implications for both of us in filing an accident report with the police, we decided together to just chalk it up as "just one of those things" because of the minor damage to both vehicles. Now had that young woman been drunk or high on drugs or had I been physically injured by her carelessness, that might have entailed a police report for obvious reasons; 1) it's against the law to drive while inebriated and 2) the insurance companies require a police report before deciding if financial compensation is deserved. Or if a car accident had caused a death, that would require a police report.

Bottom line is that each situation must be determined by the seriousness and legal mandates involved. As I mentioned above, all 50 states have mandating laws when it comes to child abuse so that should be the deciding factor in that type of case. To ignore the mandated reporting law is to jeopardize the safety of others and equally as bad, think you don't have to obey the law.

[amessenger4god]

I have agreement with everyone here, but I would ask for caution in how it's approached.

1. We all agree that we should obey the laws of the land. Christians are called to do that.

2. But God's law does come first. We can obey the law of the land only insofar as it does not contradict God's higher law. Hence martyrdom, persecution, and imprisonment of Christians when they are forced to do things by the state against God's law. While I don't see it here yet, nothing quite burns me up like Christians who stake everything on this issue on Romans 13. This is the worst example of cherry picking scripture I can think of. God's law comes first. Period. Often times earthly laws are good and beneficial and we can and should respect them, but not when they ask us to turn against the Supreme Law-giver Himself.

3. I agree with Abiding about submitting over to the governing authorities. I think that is appropriate and Christians that don't do that are in sin.

I also agree with I think the spirit of what Keith is saying regarding grace and reconciliation. Insofar as we as believers are concerned, we are called to extend grace, forgiveness, and reconciliation to any and every fellow brother when they ask for it. No exceptions. That includes Josh and John. Especially if they have forsaken their sin or are genuinely fighting it. Failure to forgive is a sin, and in fact a bitter, venomous, ongoing sin.

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Matthew 7:2

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." - Matthew 18:21-22

Nothing traps people in cycles of sin and despair like the failure of their family, friends, and neighbors to forgive and accept them when they ask for it (IF THEY ACTUALLY ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WRONGDOING; not talking about accepting sin, aka not acceptance in the sense that it's "ok if you're 'gay'"; but only when there appears to be acknowledged repentance).

In just my close circle of family and friends there has been habitual struggles with hard drugs, alcohol, sex, pornography, despair, lying, homosexuality, divorce, infidelity, and on and on and on.

These were overcome through love and forgiveness and reconciliation to Christ.

Judgment does nothing to solve the heart problem, it only stops the societal ramifications. Judgment is important and necessary, but let us not put ourselves in the judge's seat unless that seat has been given to us.

[keithareilly]

1 Corinthians 6:1-7
When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you.

Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

While I don't see it here yet, nothing quite burns me up like Christians who stake everything on this issue on Romans 13. This is the worst example of cherry picking scripture I can think of.

Perhaps they are not aware that the law runs through the whole bible. Perhaps they are not aware that God Himself instituted the laws, statutes, and ordinances by which the Israelites were to live. He implemented moral, judicial and civil boundaries as guides on how to treat neighbors and those who trespass against others. The laws insisted on justice, fairness, and honesty among his people. All people were equal in God's law and subject to appropriate punishment for crimes committed depending on the severity. That's why it's stated "an eye for an eye"....Victims could not inflict more injury than they had received. Neither could criminals restore less than they had taken or stolen simply because of a class distinction. References to governing authorities runs all the way through scripture from the OT to the Gospels to the Epistles. Paul, being a Pharisee, was well versed in the Mosaic law and respected the judicial authority as originating from God hence the reference in Romans 13.

God's law comes first. Period.

What laws of God's in particular are you referring to, amessenger4God?

Often times earthly laws are good and beneficial and we can and should respect them, but not when they ask us to turn against the Supreme Law-giver Himself.

I'm in agreement that God gave us laws and we are subject to them while on earth. No one has implied otherwise I don't think.

3. I agree with Abiding about submitting over to the governing authorities. I think that is appropriate and Christians that don't do that are in sin.

Agreed.

I also agree with I think the spirit of what Keith is saying regarding grace and reconciliation.

Agreed. The legal laws of the land are not meant to extend grace and forgiveness. Those are spiritual virtues.

Insofar as we as believers are concerned, we are called to extend grace, forgiveness, and reconciliation to any and every fellow brother when they ask for it. No exceptions. That includes Josh and John.

Scripture teaches forgiveness of sins committed against us. Josh has not committed sin against me, but against those whom he molested. Forgiveness must come from each of them.

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother trespasses against you, rebuke him. And if he repents, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 And if he trespasses against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turns again to you, saying, I repent, you shall forgive him.

Col 3:13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

Mar 11:25 "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

For me to say I forgive Charles Manson, or the Boston Bomber, or millions of doctors who have performed abortions, or ISIS for murdering women and children, or homosexuals who are getting married, is a misunderstanding of what God expects of us. The principle of forgiveness is that of one person to another who has sinned against them. Now love is another story altogether. We are to love not only one another in the family of God, but to those who are outside the family of God. He died for all sinners. We love because while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us.

Again, I have nothing to forgive Josh Duggar for as he has not sinned against me.

Especially if they have forsaken their sin or are genuinely fighting it. Failure to forgive is a sin, and in fact a bitter, venomous, ongoing sin.

Not sure I understand this. Would you provide scripture references for bitter, venomous, and ongoing sin?

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Matthew 7:2

Yes, this is part and parcel with reaping what is sown, the deed of the flesh as opposed to the fruit of the spirit, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc.

"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." - Matthew 18:21-22

Yes, forgiveness toward those who sin against us specifically...."brother or sister who sins against me..."

Nothing traps people in cycles of sin and despair like the failure of their family, friends, and neighbors to forgive and accept them when they ask for it (IF THEY ACTUALLY ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WRONGDOING; not talking about accepting sin, aka not acceptance in the sense that it's "ok if you're 'gay'"; but only when there appears to be acknowledged repentance).

Forgiveness does not always result in restoration of relationships. We wish it would. We hope it will. But it doesn't always. I might forgive a friend who stabbed me while he was high on drugs, but that doesn't mean I'll take a trip to France with him next month if invited. I'll wisely, politely pass on the offer.

In just my close circle of family and friends there has been habitual struggles with hard drugs, alcohol, sex, pornography, despair, lying, homosexuality, divorce, infidelity, and on and on and on.

These were overcome through love and forgiveness and reconciliation to Christ.

Some will struggle with these sins throughout their lives even following reconciliation to Christ. With these, we walk with them through their valleys, extending encouragement, love, and prayer for eventual victory.

Judgment does nothing to solve the heart problem, it only stops the societal ramifications. Judgment is important and necessary, but let us not put ourselves in the judge's seat unless that seat has been given to us.

Yes, judgement is necessary, but only by those who are designated for that responsibility. That's why it's important to recognize the difference between the spiritual principles we extend and the legal, judicial we leave to the governing authorities as ordained by God for our good. Both are necessary depending on the situation. If there's a law that's being broken and there's a law of mandated reporting, we must report it.

I'm truly baffled by the (somewhat) insistence that one precludes the other. That spiritual applications negate the need for legal ones despite the evidence to the contrary is to assume Christians are above the law.

Things that are against the law and should be reported to law enforcement include:

Murder, physical or sexual assault, human trafficking, child pornography, physical or sexual child abuse, theft, sale or use of illegal drugs, child abduction, carrying firearms without proper documentation

Things that are not against federal, state, or civil law but are spiritual sins which require repentance by the individual include:

lying, unforgiveness, sexual promiscuity, divorce, adultery, cheating, abortion, homosexual activity, drunkenness, pride, etc.

The appropriate method of resolution should be obvious. You wouldn't call 911 to report your friend just got divorced or told a lie. Likewise, we shouldn't try to imply that all that's necessary for an illegal child abduction is grace and mercy nor should such a crime be minimized or covered up.

[GodsStudent]

And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?

Keith: It clearly says trivial cases and even gets further on into lawsuits. We are talking about the molestation of a child in this thread. That is not a civil matter and is certainly not trivial. It is a SUPER STRETCH imo to insinuate that this scripture is speaking of the matters set forth in the OP.

[keithareilly]

Godstudent,

If we are incompetent to judge trivial cases then we are not ready to judge the world. What is being said is we should be competent to judge the world and angels yet are not ready to judge even the most trivial cases.

You are correct, child molestation is not a trivial case. But it is a worldly case and we should be competent to judge it. Abdicating responsibility to other authorities is relinquishing are responsibility to prepare ourselves for our responsibility of judging the world.

Abiding is addressing a topic that we should be able to make correct judgments about. She has stated many things that I agree with such as counseling for both victims and perpetrator. What she and I disagree with is the responsibility that we are to take on as a church. I support taking on this responsibility as a church, she does not. What I have done is post scriptures supporting why I think we ought to be taking on such responsibilities. It is my belief that if we do not take on such responsibilities, then we will not be ready to judge the world when the time comes for us to do what scripture clearly indicates we will be called upon to do. It is also my opinion that by addressing this topic, Abiding is helping us prepare for that responsibility.

Keith

[amessenger4god]

Perhaps they are not aware that the law runs through the whole bible. Perhaps they are not aware that God Himself instituted the laws, statutes, and ordinances by which the Israelites were to live. He implemented moral, judicial and civil boundaries as guides on how to treat neighbors and those who trespass against others. The laws insisted on justice, fairness, and honesty among his people. All people were equal in God's law and subject to appropriate punishment for crimes committed depending on the severity. That's why it's stated "an eye for an eye"....Victims could not inflict more injury than they had received. Neither could criminals restore less than they had taken or stolen simply because of a class distinction. References to governing authorities runs all the way through scripture from the OT to the Gospels to the Epistles. Paul, being a Pharisee, was well versed in the Mosaic law and respected the judicial authority as originating from God hence the reference in Romans 13.

I agree with almost all of what you are saying here. I also agree that judicial authority comes from God. I would say though that not all laws come from God, as clearly there are explicitly immoral laws.

I would also add that on the basis of Christ the new law of God is the law of grace. Judicial authorities should still, of course, do there duty to prosecute wrongdoing (earthly justice exacted for earthly crimes), but as far as God and eternal justice are concerned post-resurrection, the law is grace. Judgment will be based on John 3:18, John 6:29, etc. This is the heart of the Gospel: http://www.unsealed.org/2015/04/the-gospel.html

What laws of God's in particular are you referring to, amessenger4God?

Every moral law given in the Bible. I can think of numerous unjust laws that Christians should absolutely not follow. The variety of rules and regulations surrounding China's One Child Policy are an obvious contemporary example, or any of the multitude of laws in Muslim countries regarding the reporting of apostasy. There are countless others, too. Here in America, there is of course the growing controversy of laws that may cause people to directly sin, so I believe they are 100% in the right for refusing to obey them (i.e. Christian bakeries refusing to do cakes, Hobby Lobby with contraception, etc).

I believe the story of Daniel is the proper lens through which we should view Romans 13. A law was made that required Daniel to disobey his faith. He refused it. So God's law trumps earthly law for Christians. We are lucky that for most of our lives the laws of this country have not generally conflicted with our faith. That time is quickly ending.

...But I will say, I'm not sure quite how to handle things like taxation going towards abortion or dhimmitude (for Christians in Muslim countries). I suppose we are still called to pay these fees/taxes because we are not directly sinning or causing someone else to sin. "Render unto Caesar" even though Caesar was doing some pretty wicked things. Thoughts?

Scripture teaches forgiveness of sins committed against us. Josh has not committed sin against me, but against those whom he molested. Forgiveness must come from each of them.

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother trespasses against you, rebuke him. And if he repents, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 And if he trespasses against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turns again to you, saying, I repent, you shall forgive him.

Col 3:13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

Mar 11:25 "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.

For me to say I forgive Charles Manson, or the Boston Bomber, or millions of doctors who have performed abortions, or ISIS for murdering women and children, or homosexuals who are getting married, is a misunderstanding of what God expects of us. The principle of forgiveness is that of one person to another who has sinned against them. Now love is another story altogether. We are to love not only one another in the family of God, but to those who are outside the family of God. He died for all sinners. We love because while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us.

Again, I have nothing to forgive Josh Duggar for as he has not sinned against me.

Agreed 100%. I'm sorry if I sounded confusing or misleading. I agree with you here. Of course, that's not to say we hold a grudge or bitterness towards these vile people who didn't personally wrong us. Instead, as you mention, we love them. Of course, our love for them would have us turn them over to the authorities, so that their sin ceases and others are protected.

Not sure I understand this. Would you provide scripture references for bitter, venomous, and ongoing sin?

Here are some verses about the sin of unforgiveness: http://www.openbible.info/topics/unforgiveness A theme you can see is throughout is "forgive in order to be forgiven".

Matthew 18 has an especially powerful and gut-wrenching parable about the wickedness of unforgiveness:

23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold[h] was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[i] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.

29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’

30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Yes, forgiveness toward those who sin against us specifically...."brother or sister who sins against me..."

Agreed.

Forgiveness does not always result in restoration of relationships. We wish it would. We hope it will. But it doesn't always. I might forgive a friend who stabbed me while he was high on drugs, but that doesn't mean I'll take a trip to France with him next month if invited. I'll wisely, politely pass on the offer.

Agreed completely.

Some will struggle with these sins throughout their lives even following reconciliation to Christ. With these, we walk with them through their valleys, extending encouragement, love, and prayer for eventual victory.

Agreed. I've definitely been there myself and with others. Victory can sometimes take a long time.

I'm truly baffled by the (somewhat) insistence that one precludes the other. That spiritual applications negate the need for legal ones despite the evidence to the contrary is to assume Christians are above the law.

Agreed. You may be aware, but I definitely was taking issue with that. I was just trying to offer to everyone here a sense of moderation, so that we are reminded of the grace extended us and the need to follow God's laws first (on the one hand) and also the need to be obedient to the laws of the land and not circumvent them (on the other hand; unless of course they ask us to do something against God's moral law).

Things that are against the law and should be reported to law enforcement include:

Murder, physical or sexual assault, human trafficking, child pornography, physical or sexual child abuse, theft, sale or use of illegal drugs, child abduction, carrying firearms without proper documentation

Things that are not against federal, state, or civil law but are spiritual sins which require repentance by the individual include:

lying, unforgiveness, sexual promiscuity, divorce, adultery, cheating, abortion, homosexual activity, drunkenness, pride, etc.

The appropriate method of resolution should be obvious. You wouldn't call 911 to report your friend just got divorced or told a lie. Likewise, we shouldn't try to imply that all that's necessary for an illegal child abduction is grace and mercy nor should such a crime be minimized or covered up.

Agreed. Well said, btw.

[redeemed1953]

There are demonic spirits involved in child molestation.
Just because I call myself a polar bear doesn't mean I am one.
If I live in a garage that doesn't make me a car.

Just because you say you are a 'Christian" doesn't mean you are a follower of Christ.

[imirish01]

Chold molestation is spirit driven. Anyone who looks at a child as a sexual object is being used by the enemy, IMO.

That said, God has placed laws in our land to protect the innocent, law abiding citizen's, as well as the nefarious ones. The victim is represented by the People of the State of... The Defendant by a lawyer, or himself/herself. By the time the Defendant gets to court they have had ample opportunity to confess, or at least admit what they did. They then seek the mercy of the court. If they fail to admit or confess, they may go to trial, where citizens judge the case by the law of the land. Our laws are generally fair.

Regarding molesters, they have had opportunity to confess. Having handled hundreds of molestation and rape cases in a prosecutors office, I know that many of them will admit (meaning to part of what they did) or confess ( meaning to all of what they did). Thus, they then face the justice system and either the Judge or the Jury. The more difficult cases go to Jury. Our system of justice is set up for mercy on the Defendant on so many levels. They can seek the mercy of the State, the mercy of the Judge or the mercy of the Citizens. Many, many times the Defendant will admit or confess, then turn around and lie to EVERYONE that they never admitted. It only comes out later in a preliminary hearing or trial. By then, they have their story in place as to why they admitted.

This system is not set up for mercy on the Victim. And that is where many Christians wanting to run to forgive the Offender fail. They fail the innocent, the children, the hurting Mom or the family. They trample them, preaching mercy and forgiveness, as they run to the Offender to forgive. Failing to have mercy where mercy is due- with the Victim...the child. You have no clue what they go through in court. None! They are called liars, mistaken, a bad child, a promiscuous woman, a prostitute, an addict. Anything, but a Victim.

I have said this before, but it needs to be repeated. In my county, in 13 years...13 YEARS- not one Christian came to support a rape victim or molest victim in court. Not one! Yet, I read letter after letter from ministers, preachers, church goers about mercy on the Defendant. And it should be noted, that one of those molest suspect's, years later, threatened to kill me. Again, the church came to his aid to say, "Not this guy." Not one of them called me to say, "are you okay?" Christians are clueless about who to have mercy on and discernment of this evil spirit.
So, I end, this sexual spirit is a liar and a perverter of innocence. You are a fool, or full of pride, if you want to run to them to "forgive" them, especially if you don't have all the facts. They will lie to you and show you to be a fool. Wait until all the facts are in. Wait until they admit what they did, like Paul, then go and try and restore. Until then, leave them alone. They did not consult you before molesting or raping. They did not need your help until they are ready to tell the truth and show mercy where mercy is due- their Victim.

[GodsStudent]

Christians are clueless about who to have mercy on and discernment of this evil spirit.

You can say that again.

I listened to a sermon by Dr. Tony Evans called Understanding Kingdom Sexuality (link to this sermon is in this series if interested) http://tonyevans.org/category/tony-evan ... ternative/
Interestingly he identified our sexuality as a unique type of sin as it involves us....our bodies.....instead of our environment.

I've posted a link to this series and it's incredible. Yesterday's sermon was incredible.....Portrait of a Christian Family....(the link I provided has that sermon, too)....and he made a very strong point....Since men are the foundation of the biblical Christian family, and the biblical Christian family is the foundation to the society and the society is the foundation of the country.....there is no mystery here that our men are whom it is satan is attacking.

I cannot stress enough the importance of listening to this series......every man in our country should listen to every single sermon in this series at least three times to be SURE he gets it....because it IDENTIFIES the problem we all have now....in our families, then bleeding to our communities, then bleeding to our states and finally our nation......

and until we, the Christians, get what he's saying and fix what's wrong in our families, we are part of this problem, not the solution......and we really can be part of the solution.

I refuse to be judged for judging these acts against children and wanting these people who commit them to step down from any level of service to the greater Christian Community......they don't have it right, so they can't tell us how to get it right....

listen to Dr. Evan's sermons in this series and let the lights come on.....(said to whom it may concern and not anyone in particular)......

[lepter]

The roman catholics and the church of england dealt with child molestation inside the church and look how that went. Report these people to the law and let them be dealt with. Sin like that destroys lives......tie a millstone round there neck.....its a more minor punnishment than God will meet out. Cover ups never work.