What happens when you die?

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

What happens when you die?

Postby GodsStudent on Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:23 am

So, a co worker of ours passed away suddenly on Friday. I worked around him for about 23 years and things were friendly between us, but we were not actually friends. From a very "outside" perspective, I honestly don't think he knew the Lord, and yet, everyone (as usual) immediately went into those words "He's in a better place." I complained that as far as I know, everyone I've ever known who died is "in a better place" which doesn't jive with what scripture says. Literally, every time anyone has died that I've known, the people are always saying that, and I feel that does a great injustice to truth and "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." If we wouldn't all immediately comfort ourselves with those words, then perhaps some true evaluation could begin to take place while we are on this side of the equation. I am not judging him or his salvation, and I feel I have to say that, because I didn't know him well, but this discussion moved on to create questions that once the new discussion took place, I could not answer with certainty and clarity, and that is the purpose of my questions here.

Our discussion moved forward to what happens for each, the Lost and the Saved....upon death. We even tried to discuss the issue of heaven not being our home, but this planet and the one that will be created for us after the 1000 year reign of Christ, is where we are to always live......of course "....I go to prepare a place for you. In my Father's House are many mansions" came up, among other things.....so I'd like to get some input as to what we know the bible says and tells us will happen so that, hopefully, if scripture does clear this up, I can understand what happens when a person dies.

Here are some questions that led to confusion in our conversation, as different verses created different questions, and in the end, we felt like we weren't sure and wanted to be sure we knew what happened upon death, both with the saved and the unsaved. I am asking questions I think I know the answer to, but I want to be sure I have the right answer in my own mind, so I am going to ask as though I know nothing and have only questions:

When a person dies, do different things happen among the saved and the unsaved?
Does a saved person go to sleep in the grave, anticipating being "raised from the dead in the blink of an eye" at the rapture?
Alternately, if a person dies unsaved, what happens?
Do they go straight to hell at that time or do they go to sleep, too, and if that's the case, when do they go to hell?
Do the unsaved never go to hell and only go straight to the lake of fire?
Does the bible say the spirit roams the earth for 3 days upon the person's death? What is the purpose for this, if so?
When the rapture happens, saved people will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible bodies, right?
Are all people who have died saved going to be changed from corruptible to incorruptible and live on this earth with Christ for the 1000 year reign? If not, who is not going to be changed then and why? Will they ever wake...when and why?
At the end of the 1000 year reign, the earth will be burned up and the Lord will create a new planet for us. Where do we go while we are awaiting our new planet (if anywhere)?
Do the saved ever go to heaven at any point? (In my father's house are many mansions....I go to prepare a place for you....if we do not go there, what does this verse mean?)
It seems to me that we are never intended to leave this planet.....we live here until we die. We die and sleep in the grave until Christ redeems us at the rapture, then we live with Him here for 1000 years, and after that, the Lord destroys this planet and creates a new one for us to live on in to eternity.....so at what point would we go anywhere but here???? Tell me where I am wrong about this and why...two hangups I have are 1) why would we be told about streets paved of gold....where is that and will we ever be there....and 2) why did Christ go to prepare a place for us....and 3) why the mansions....who are they for and where are they located?
The unsaved....what is the process for them? When they die to they go straight to hell? Do they live there from the time of their death, thru the 1000 year reign of Christ, and then, until the White Throne Judgment, where at that time they will be thrown into the lake of fire? So, would that mean that some will live in hell for a very long time (people who died a long time ago)...have they been there this whole time, or are they in the grave, asleep and all are going to go at one time to hell, and when will that be?

I have posted a lot of questions here. It's my hopes that you will cut a question and paste it and answer it. Please answer as many as you have a clear understanding and answer to or have time to answer. Adding scripture would be much appreciated, and clarifying misunderstood scripture in any of my questions above would also be much appreciated.

It seemed the more we talked yesterday, the more unsure we were about how sure we were about anything!
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby mark s on Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:42 pm

Hi God's Student,

I would suggest beginning with a careful reading of 2 Corinthians 5, particularly the first half or so of that chapter. Paul talks about being absent from the Lord while we are in our bodies, then being present with Him when we have left our bodies. Since we know Jesus is with us now, I have to conclude Paul is talking about our perceptions of Him (our walk is by faith, not by sight). Then we will see Him. But before the resurrection. If the next thing that happened was our physical resurrection, then we would not be "absent from the body, and present with the Lord".

I've done a more in depth study on death and resurrection, I'll look around and see if I can find it.

Love in Christ,
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby mark s on Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:47 pm

OK, this may be more than you were planning for . . .

The Rapture and the Resurrection of the Church

When we were looking at the first few verses of John 14,
John 14:2-3 "In My Father's house are many dwellings; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

some questions were asked, such as, “Does the believer go to heaven when they die?” and “Do the dead in Christ have bodies in heaven before the rapture?”
1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. What does that mean, “wake or sleep”?

We’re not the first to ask these kinds of questions. Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:35 “But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"

We know that at the rapture there are two groups of people involved, those who have died, or “sleep”, and those who are alive and remain.

1Th 4:14-17 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Do we actually sleep? Or, if we don’t, what sort of body do we have, considering that the resurrection hasn’t happened yet?

I’ve heard several different answers to this. Some people say we receive our new bodies immediately when we die. Others say we literally sleep, oblivious, until the resurrection. Still others say we get a temporary body to hold us until the resurrection.

What we want to know is just what the Bible actually says. For example, while I don’t believe “soul sleep” correctly describes what will happen, I’ve heard the argument that it isn’t true because it doesn’t seem all that appealing. First of all, it may be more appealling the older and more weary you become, but most importantly, its not what the Bible teaches. We simply want to know what the Bible says, without adding to it, or taking from it.

Some people say these questions are irrelevant, that we will find out in due time. I believe that the more we know of God’s revelation to us, the more able we are to live the holy lives He calls us to live. He addresses these topics specifically in the Bible.

Let’s look at some of these passages:

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 "In My Father's house are many dwellings; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
The straightfoward plain meaning of this is that we will be with Jesus where He is when He comes again, to receive us unto Himself. He leaves, He returns, and we shall join Him when He returns.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Here we are told that Christ is the first of the resurrection. After Christ will be those that are His, who will be raised at His coming, or parousia. The second coming of Christ is spoken of in scripture two ways, as His parousia, or advent, and His epiphenia, or shining forth.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness epiphaneia of his coming: Jesus comes unannounced for His church, then comes “with power and great glory”. There is His parousia as He removes the saints, and His epiphaneia as He defeats the evildoers, and establishes His kingdom.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

We shall be changed.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby mark s on Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:48 pm

Ac 6:14 Jesus shall change the customs of Moses
Ro 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man
Ga 4:20 I desire to be present with you now and to change my voice
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up and they shall be changed

By the NT usage of the Greek allasso, we could read it as “exchanged” – to stop using one, and to begin using the other.

But then we come to this:
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians has several passages regarding our joining Jesus:

1Th 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming - parousia?

1Th 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These examples show two different ideas of what will happen. In some of them, Jesus will return for us. In others, Jesus will return with us! So how does that work?

To answer this question, we’ll look at what resurrection actually is. But before doing that, we will look at what life and death are.

We know that from the beginning, God intended for mankind to live forever, and to be His family, forever the recipients of His grace.

Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

When God created Adam and Eve, He put them in a garden that had a special tree, the Tree of Life, that if they ate of it, they would live forever. Of course, there was also that other tree, of the knowledge of good and evil.

Ge 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

God’s only commandment was that they not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam and Eve were in an unaltered state from the way God made them. They were as they had been made to be.
Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

But God had said:
Ge 2:17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

They did eat, and this resulted in several changes.

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby mark s on Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:49 pm

Why do you suppose Adam and Eve hadn’t already eaten of the tree of life? Perhaps because the fruit wasn’t yet ripe?

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

We know that for the church the eternal state comes after the time of testing. Was this also true for Adam and Eve?

God told Adam that in the day that he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would die. What does the Bible say about what death is? There are three kinds of death spoken of. They are:

Physical Death
Ge 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Second Death
Rev 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Spiritual Death.

Disobedience brings separation from God,
Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

which we have come to think of as spiritual death; Death entered in, which passed to all of us. This death ends when we come to Christ.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ
This is our spiritual resurrection.

If the lake of fire is the second death, which other death is counted as the first death?
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God

The dead in this passage are not just those whose body functions have ceased, but these are those who will be judged by their works. They are the ones who are not covered by Christ’s righteousness. The books of their works will show their sins, and the justice of their names having been blotted from the book of life.

Ex 32:33 And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Jas 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

One sin, any sin, is rebellion against God, and “the soul that sins shall die”.

Paul wrote something very interesting:
Ro 5:12-14 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned-- 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Not all sin is imputed sin. God told Adam to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Until the Law was given, until Moses, this was the only Law from God, and therefore this was the only imputed sin. After God barred the way to Eden, it was not possible that anyone else could break God’s law, and thus incur the imputation of sin. Impute means to “set to the account of, to attribute or ascribe”. However, sin is not sin just because God says it is sin. Sin is sin because it is intrisically wrong. And because men sinned, they died, even though their sin was not counted against them.

The First Death is the result of actual sin. The result is both immediate and delayed. Immediately upon sinning, we are separated from God, because sin causes separation, and we are dead in our trespasses. The end result of actual sin is physical death, because sin kills. That is, without the benefit of the Tree of Life, which would have caused Adam to live forever. “...lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.”

The Second Death is the result of imputed sin. This result will occur at the final judgment.

(1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Preaching is always spoken of in the Bible as preaching the gospel, or preaching repentance. Did these perhaps billions of people have the opportunity to receive Christ’s atonement? I hope so! Its also written that the just shall live by faith. These did not live by faith, therefore how could they be justified?)
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby mark s on Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:49 pm

Another result of Adam and Eve’s disobedience was the curse pronounced by God:
Ge 3:17 “And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

God, in an act of grace and mercy, not only cut mankind off from the tree of life, which would have preserved him in his fallen state forever, but also took him from paradise and ease, for as Jesus said, “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Matt 19:24. (in Aramaic, “gamla” is a homonym, that means both “camel”, and “rope”)

God made us poor, so that we would sooner seek Him.

This was not the last word on this matter.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Here we have then that same referrence to life as being awake, and death as sleeping, and not just for the believer, but for the condemned as well.

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;

Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me.

Isaiah 26:19 Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

Then coming into the New Testament:
Martha, talking to Jesus after Lazarus had died, said,
John 11:21 Then Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 "But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." 23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Martha seems to be thinking of something else that Daniel wrote. Daniel was writing in chapter 12 of his vision concerning the time of the great tribulation, the 70th week. He had been told a schedule of the number of days for the completion of these things, and then he was told: Daniel 12:13 "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

From this we know, as Martha knew, these Old Covenant faithful would be raised at the end of the 70th week, as the Son of Man was given dominion. In the meantime, before Jesus ascended to heaven, their spirits, according to the story Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus, were in Abraham’s bosom. (Luke 16) When Jesus ascended to heaven, He “took captivity captive.” (Ephesians 4:8-9)

So the spirits of the OT faithful are now where Jesus took them, apparently as conscious and aware as they were in Abraham’s bosom, awaiting their resurrection at the beginning of the kingdom age, the millenial reign of Christ.

Let’s look for a moment at Christ’s death and resurrection.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
And there are many other scriptures that tell us the same thing. Jesus died, and did not rise again until three days had passed. The indication of scripture is that Jesus was not inactive during that time.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,

Eph 4:9 (Now this, "He ascended" --what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?

Throughout the Old Covenant times, when people died, their spirits were taken to Sheol, to either the side of torment or the side of comfort. When Jesus died, He “went and preached to the spirits in prison”, and when He ascended, He “led captivity captive”. Our understanding of this is that He rescued the faithful and led them to heaven. According to Daniel, they shall “stand in their lot (allotment) at the end of the days”, or when Jesus has finished judging the earth during the 70th week, and is now ready to establish His kingdom.

We know that their imputed sin fell upon Jesus. God will reverse the result of their actual sin, their death, at the regeneration, when He establishes the kingdom.

So how is the church different from the OT saints?

Well, one thing is that resurrection of the OT saints is described in only one way. They died, they are resting, and will rise on the last day. The NT saints, on the other hand, will rejoin Christ when He comes back with them!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby mark s on Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:50 pm

But tell me, are we strangers to this kind of dual teaching in the Bible, or is it something we see over and over?

In Romans 7:20 “Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.” We sin, yet it is not us.

In Romans 8:10 “And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” We are dead, yet alive.

In Eph 2:6 “and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,” we are here on earth, and seated in heaven.

The natural man doesn’t have this dichotomy, either. They are dead in sins. When they die they are dead. They are judged unto eternal death.

The born again are described by Paul in 2 Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. (NKJV)

Some things in this passage are stated as fact, some are given as preferrences. Following are statements made in this passage:
If our earthly body dies, we have a heaveny body.
We want to put on our heavenly body.
We do not want to be unclothed.
We do not want to lose our earthly body, but to clothe it in our heavenly body.
God had this in mind when He made us, and gave us His Spirit as the first part.
When we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.
We would rather be away from our home in the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

Here Paul is saying, in a nutshell, that nobody wants to die – we all want to be raptured. God created us for eternal life. Eternal life, in the eternal body, is what we want. But its not our wish to die, and leave this body, but rather, to be raptured, and put on the eternal body without ever experiencing physical death, the putting off of our body. But if we do die, we are with the Lord. We believe in Him Who put His Spirit in us, and we know the if we do die, we are with Him, because we walk by faith, not by sight. Walking by faith means that we count on what the Bible tells us, not what we see with our eyes.

What does the Bible tell us, and what do we see with our eyes, concerning our being with the Lord?

What we see with our eyes – that’s easy – we see this world, our physical bodies, what we do not see is Jesus! I don’t see Him anywhere!
What the Bible tells us is very different.
Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

We are born, we sin, and this separates us from God. We spend the rest of our lives just waiting for the rest of death to catch up to us, and to die physically. But then we are born again. This is our spiritual resurrection. This is what we have that the OT saints did not.

We have died with Christ, we are raised with Christ, and we are in heaven with Christ.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

The Bible teaches us that we have already died and gone to heaven, to be with Jesus, as a completed action.

Go back to 2 Cor 5.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

While we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord, for we walk by faith and not by sight.

In what sense are we absent from the Lord? We know that God lives in us, and that He is everywhere. We are both physically and spiritually in His presence. Paul inserts this comment, that we walk by faith and not by sight, to clue us in. We are absent from the Lord in sight.

If our walk were by sight, this would be to physically see Jesus. To see heaven. We do not see Him yet, so our walk is by faith. We are “at home” in our body. This is where our consciousness is, our sight. It is here, where our eyes and ears and hands and mouths are. It’s where our bodies are. We are in bodies that belong in this temporal environment, and are not equipped to exist, or even to be aware of, the heavenly realm. But where else are we? We are “hid with Christ in God”, “seated in the heavenlies with Jesus.”

So how can both “sleep” and “death” be compared to describe what happens to us?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby mark s on Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:58 pm

What happens when we sleep? We are no longer conscious of our bodies, nor are we focused on the sensory input that dominates us while awake. We are no longer active in the physical world.

What happens when we die? We no longer see through our eyes, or hear through our ears, or touch with our hands, and we are no longer active in the physical world. But death does not change our spiritual existance. We are still hid with Christ in God. We are just no longer tethered to a body that limits our sensory experience to the physical world. We sleep in the sense that we cease to experience the physical world.

What happens when we wake up? We return to the sensory input of our body. And when we receive our immortal, heavenly bodies, they will be made for heavenly existance, not limited to experiencing life on a purely physical level, but also capable of perceiving and experiencing on the spiritual level.

Think of the time you felt the closest, the most aware, of God. Maybe a time in prayer, or your eyes closed, singing praises, or meditating in His Word. Remember how the world just seemed to fade away, and the joy of just being in the Lord’s presence?

There’s a song we sing:
Turn your eyes upon Jesus – Look full in His wonderful face – and the things of earth will grow strangely dim – in the light of His glory and grace.

When we sleep to this world, our spirit does not sleep. When our body sleeps, the distraction, the tether that keeps us fixed in this physical world, and not fully experiencing the spiritual existance which we already have, will be gone. There will just no longer be any barrier to our fully experiencing the light of His glory and grace. The most intimate fellowship we have had with Jesus will be magnified beyond our imagination.

And at the resurrection, as our consciousness awakes in our immortal bodies, this fellowship doesn’t end or diminish. Physically, we sleep to this world, and this body, then wake to our eternal body. Spiritually, we live continuously with Jesus.
1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Spiritually, we are already in our eternal state. We do not spiritually change either with death or resurrection. Physically, we will change tremendously. So why is it important to know this?
2 Co 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory, 18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians 1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not;

The question is, how distracted will we allow ourselves to be by our material existance?
Ps 17:15 As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:34 pm

Lazarus went straight to hell (Luke:16) Paul said that the moment we depart from here we are present with the Lord, so I think it's pretty black and white.

Sometimes people don't seem to be saved, because they don't talk about their faith much. From the perspective of a spirit-filled mature christian, it might seem like others are doomed to hell because they don't bear the fruit that we do. But that doesn't mean that they're going to hell. They may have accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior a long time ago.

Romans 10:9 says that if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth the lord Jesus we will be saved" I imagine a lot of people have done that. There's a wide spectrum of spiritual maturity, I would like to think that even those people who simply said "i believe in Jesus" might be saved. I guess we don't know.
Matthew 1:22
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:05 pm

When a person dies, do different things happen among the saved and the unsaved? Yes, saved go to heaven with Jesus, lost go to hell like Lazarus.

Does a saved person go to sleep in the grave, anticipating being "raised from the dead in the blink of an eye" at the rapture? No, our spirit goes to heaven, but we will receive our new body at the time of the rapture. (LIke Jesus had a new body when he was resurrected)

Alternately, if a person dies unsaved, what happens? I'm guessing they won't get a new body, ever.

Do they go straight to hell at that time or do they go to sleep, too, and if that's the case, when do they go to hell? They go straight to hell when they die, and then they'll be resurrected at the great white throne judgement, then be cast into the lake of fire when their name isn't found in the book of life.

Do the unsaved never go to hell and only go straight to the lake of fire? Possibly hell as it is now is a bit different than the Lake of Fire in the future. I wouldn't want to find out.

Does the bible say the spirit roams the earth for 3 days upon the person's death? What is the purpose for this, if so? I never heard this one before.

When the rapture happens, saved people will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible bodies, right? YES

Are all people who have died saved going to be changed from corruptible to incorruptible and live on this earth with Christ for the 1000 year reign? I think so, Yes.

If not, who is not going to be changed then and why? The Lost because they are in hell.

Will they ever wake...when and why? Yes the lost will wake up at the resurrection. When their name is not found in the book of life they will be cast into the lake of fire, "the second death"

At the end of the 1000 year reign, the earth will be burned up and the Lord will create a new planet for us. Where do we go while we are awaiting our new planet (if anywhere)? Not sure, but the bible says that when the rapture happens we will always be with Jesus from that point on.

Do the saved ever go to heaven at any point? (In my father's house are many mansions....I go to prepare a place for you....if we do not go there, what does this verse mean?) I think the saved to to the throne room of God now, maybe. But the part where Jesus is preparing a place for us, I think that is the New Jerusalem which will come down out of heaven after the 1,000 years.

It seems to me that we are never intended to leave this planet.....we live here until we die. We die and sleep in the grave until Christ redeems us at the rapture, then we live with Him here for 1000 years, and after that, the Lord destroys this planet and creates a new one for us to live on in to eternity.....so at what point would we go anywhere but here???? Why would our spirit stay here when we die? The Bible says that to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.

Tell me where I am wrong about this and why. I just did :)

...two hangups I have are 1) why would we be told about streets paved of gold....where is that and will we ever be there. I think the streets paved with gold are in the new Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth, where there will be no more death.

2) why did Christ go to prepare a place for us....He's preparing a place for us as we live out our lives and make decisions because our place in heaven will be according to the choices we make here on earth.

3) why the mansions....who are they for and where are they located? They will come down out of heaven, new heavens and new earth. They are for us!

The unsaved....what is the process for them? When they die to they go straight to hell? Yes. First death= hell second death= lake of fire. Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Do they live there from the time of their death, through the 1000 year reign of Christ, and then, until the White Throne Judgment, where at that time they will be thrown into the lake of fire? I believe the process goes like this: 1st death, hell, 1,000 years, WTjudgment, lake of fire, (second death)

So, would that mean that some will live in hell for a very long time (people who died a long time ago)...have they been there this whole time, or are they in the grave, asleep and all are going to go at one time to hell, and when will that be? I think they're alive in hell now, like Lazarus, then they'll all go to the lake of fire at the same time, when they're names are not found in the book of life.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:00 am

Mark: Thank you so much for sharing your in depth study. I can't wait to dive into it.
EC: Thank you for sharing your thoughts, which are mostly the same as mine on the subject...but I want to be sure I am not following the crowd on this, so I am excited about Mark's scriptural study....Having gone to church most of my life, I have the "group" understanding on a lot of things, but I want to advance to what scripture says, even if the group was right on everything....so I KNOW instead of thinking I know, based on what I've been taught or learned by being around the group.
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Re: What happens when you die?

Postby mark s on Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:07 am

I'd like to add that since I wrote the above, I've realized that 2 Cor 5 says "we have" a building from God, not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. We have ~ present active indicative ~ simple statement of fact ~ something we currently possess.

So my understanding is that having been born again, we have a celestial body which is our spiritual new creation, and that at the resurrection/rapture, this heavenly body will cloth the terrestrial body, imparting it's eternal and incorruptible nature the the earthly body.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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