Earth's title deed

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Earth's title deed

Postby Jericho on Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:41 pm

Have you ever heard someone ask, "How can a just God allow suffering?". I've tried to answer this question from a theological perspective, but in retrospect I believe there's a far simpler explanation that involves the earth's title deed. I realize everyone doesn't agree with this premise and it will stir some debate (good), but I believe it best explains why things are the way they are, why God allows suffering, and why Satan is currently allowed to roam free.

So we know that when God made the earth and the Garden of Eden it was perfect (Gen 1:31). Then God handed it over to Adam, to have denomination over the whole earth. The Earth still belongs to God mind you, but he gave man charge over it:

"Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”" (Gen 1:26)

"You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet" (Psa 8:6)


In essence God gave Adam a title deed to the earth. Pastor Chuck Smith says, "Under Jewish law whenever you sold property in the deed there was always a redemptive clause. You always had the right to buy the property back within a specified period of time providing you could fulfill the terms and the requirements that were written in the deed.

So wherever there was the sale of property, there was always two deeds that were drawn up. One deed was sealed and it was put away in a safe deposit. The other remained open and was kept by the person who sold the property. And in the time of redemption you would bring both deeds, the one that was open and the one that was sealed. And by the open deed you would prove that you were the one that had the right to redeem it. And in the redeeming of it, you would break the seals of the closed deed and you would fulfill the requirements therein, and thus, the property would revert to you."

When Adam sinned he in essence turned the title deed of earth over to Satan. Since that point Satan has been the God of this world (2 Cr 4:4). Likewise John says the whole world is under the control of the evil one (1Jo 5:19). Satan tempted Jesus by showing Him all the kingdoms of the world and said all the authority (of these kingdoms) would be given to Him if He would worship Satan. This claim of ownership was never contested by Jesus and Satan could not tempt Jesus with something he did not have (Luke 4:5-7). Matthew 12:26 acknowledges that Satan has a kingdom. The Book of Daniel (Dan 10:20) describes two spiritual principalities, the prince of Persia (Persia was the dominate power of that day) and the prince of Greece (Alexander the Great became the next power), indicating Satan does have influence over the kingdoms over the earth. In Ezekiel 28 Satan is described as the King of Tyre who was the real power behind the power of Tyre. Satan's man The Anti-Christ will have authority over every tribe, nation, tongue (Rev 13:7). Revelation 13:2 makes it clear this authority comes from Satan not from God, "The dragon (Satan) gave him his power, his throne, and great authority." As such Satan retains some of his old authority, he is allowed to present himself before God (Job 1:6, 2:1), and when Micheal the archangel disputes Satan over the body of Moses he doesn't dare to condemn him (Jud 1:9).

When Jesus came and died on the cross, He redeemed the earth back but hasn't taken possession of it yet. Some believe the first seal opened in Revelation is the title deed to the earth (Rev 5), and the point at which God fully takes it back. After the seven years of tribulation and the removal of Satan and those who have taken his mark, there is a partial restoration that takes place. Life span's are restored to pre-flood conditions, everyone will eat under there own vine meaning no one will go hungry, and animals will no longer eat one another or harm us. After those 1000 years death, the final enemy, is destroyed and everything is made new and perfect once again.

In conclusion, there is evil and suffering in the world because Adam opened the door to it when he gave the title deed to Satan. That means even God is not legally bound to intervene until the title deed is taken back. Yes God can do anything, but He does have self-imposed limitations. If God violated his word then He wouldn't be a just God. But He has a plan to bring everything back into perfection, we are merely living in the intermediary period until then.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby mark s on Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:06 pm

Hi Jericho,

I think it's 6 times in the Bible that it says God owns the earth and everything in it. I don't believe that God gave "title deed" to anyone. God gave man dominion, but not ownership.

As the manager of my company, I have dominion, but I don't own it.

I think there is a far simpler explanation of why suffering exists. God gave man the opportunity to make real choices, with real consequences. And when those consequences result in suffering, God doesn't simply negate the consequences of man's choices, thus negating his opportunity to choose, but allows those consequences, even though some result in suffering.

My thinking, anyway . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:38 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Jericho,

I think it's 6 times in the Bible that it says God owns the earth and everything in it. I don't believe that God gave "title deed" to anyone. God gave man dominion, but not ownership.

As the manager of my company, I have dominion, but I don't own it.

I think there is a far simpler explanation of why suffering exists. God gave man the opportunity to make real choices, with real consequences. And when those consequences result in suffering, God doesn't simply negate the consequences of man's choices, thus negating his opportunity to choose, but allows those consequences, even though some result in suffering.

My thinking, anyway . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark


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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:53 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Jericho,

I think it's 6 times in the Bible that it says God owns the earth and everything in it. I don't believe that God gave "title deed" to anyone. God gave man dominion, but not ownership.

As the manager of my company, I have dominion, but I don't own it.

I think there is a far simpler explanation of why suffering exists. God gave man the opportunity to make real choices, with real consequences. And when those consequences result in suffering, God doesn't simply negate the consequences of man's choices, thus negating his opportunity to choose, but allows those consequences, even though some result in suffering.

My thinking, anyway . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark


I hear you Mark and just to add... God suffered the consequences too... God had to become man

Jericho, I guess you are thinking in terms of a title deed because of the timing and perhaps the delay when God will finally redeem everything back to Himself. But indeed no such transaction is expressed in the Genesis account nor elsewhere as far as I can see.

Besides offering that God is not willing that any should perish and that all should come to the saving knowledge of Christ (but then based on rate of death vs rate of conversion more may seem to be going to a Christless eternity), I have suspicion that God is working everything out in his perfect timing which he has set from time beginning. He has set the sun, the moon and the stars for that purpose, and his system of Sabbaths (of weeks and of years) has probably something to do with it.

When the stars are aligned and when the fullness of his timing is met, God will return...

As Mark put it... My thinking, anyway :lol:
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Jericho on Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:36 pm

I think it's 6 times in the Bible that it says God owns the earth and everything in it. I don't believe that God gave "title deed" to anyone. God gave man dominion, but not ownership.


Hi Mark. I don't discount that God owns the earth, I tried to make that clear. But that he gave control over to man for a limited period of time. If God was currently in control of the earth it wouldn't be such a mess.

As the manager of my company, I have dominion, but I don't own it.


I get the analogy but I'm not sure it is appropriate. How a human manger runs a company on earth is a far cry how God does things. His ways are not our ways.

I think there is a far simpler explanation of why suffering exists. God gave man the opportunity to make real choices, with real consequences. And when those consequences result in suffering, God doesn't simply negate the consequences of man's choices, thus negating his opportunity to choose, but allows those consequences, even though some result in suffering.


Yet we know suffering will cease and God will perfect things again, so why the delay? Why not fix things as soon as Adam sinned? What prevents God from intervening now?

Jericho, I guess you are thinking in terms of a title deed because of the timing and perhaps the delay when God will finally redeem everything back to Himself. But indeed no such transaction is expressed in the Genesis account nor elsewhere as far as I can see.


Keeping Alert, I would agree that it isn't expressly spelled out. The best way I can describe it is like this:

"The proper method of Bible study, then, is analogous to the putting together of the puzzle. For any given doctrinal subject, read the entire volume, selecting every verse that bears on the truth under study. Put all of these passages together, and the synthesis of the result is the true Bible doctrine on the question with which you are concerned. A verse from Moses, and one from Ezekiel, and one from Paul, put side by side, each illuminating the others, fit into the perfect pattern of the whole design and give the whole light which God has been pleased to reveal on that particular theme. Taken one by one, the verses may be no more than mere shapes, meaningless as far as the over-all purpose of the inspired revelation is concerned. This is why the Lord says that one of the first principles of Bible study is that no Scripture is of "private interpretation" (II Peter 1:20)." -(Donald Grey Barnhouse - The Invisible War).
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby shorttribber on Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:06 pm

Jericho wrote: If God was currently in control of the earth it wouldn't be such a mess.


God has control of me....and I'm still a mess :mrgreen:

Jericho wrote:His ways are not our ways.

So true

Jericho wrote: Why not fix things as soon as Adam sinned? What prevents God from intervening now?

You've already answered this...in saying the following
Jericho wrote:His ways are not our ways.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby mark s on Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:55 am

Jericho wrote:
I think it's 6 times in the Bible that it says God owns the earth and everything in it. I don't believe that God gave "title deed" to anyone. God gave man dominion, but not ownership.


Hi Mark. I don't discount that God owns the earth, I tried to make that clear. But that he gave control over to man for a limited period of time. If God was currently in control of the earth it wouldn't be such a mess.


Hi Jericho,

I guess you mean something different that what I mean when I think "title deed". You did say that God still owns the earth, but that God gave the deed to man, and man gave it to Satan. To me, this is saying that since Satan has the deed, he owns it.
As the manager of my company, I have dominion, but I don't own it.


I get the analogy but I'm not sure it is appropriate. How a human manger runs a company on earth is a far cry how God does things. His ways are not our ways.


I meant this as an example of the difference between dominion and ownership.

I think there is a far simpler explanation of why suffering exists. God gave man the opportunity to make real choices, with real consequences. And when those consequences result in suffering, God doesn't simply negate the consequences of man's choices, thus negating his opportunity to choose, but allows those consequences, even though some result in suffering.


Yet we know suffering will cease and God will perfect things again, so why the delay? Why not fix things as soon as Adam sinned? What prevents God from intervening now?


Nothing prevents Him, so far as I can tell. He simply has chosen the time to act according to His Own reasoning, and I can only guess what that may be.

We have certain examples in the Bible, such as when He chose to rescue the Israelites from Egypt, and when to send Jesus. Jesus, talking the the disciples about, "Is this when you will restore the kingdom?", He told them it was up to the Father.

Why? Who can answer that? But I could promote the reasoning, God knows that it's better that way.
Jericho, I guess you are thinking in terms of a title deed because of the timing and perhaps the delay when God will finally redeem everything back to Himself. But indeed no such transaction is expressed in the Genesis account nor elsewhere as far as I can see.


Keeping Alert, I would agree that it isn't expressly spelled out. The best way I can describe it is like this:

"The proper method of Bible study, then, is analogous to the putting together of the puzzle. For any given doctrinal subject, read the entire volume, selecting every verse that bears on the truth under study. Put all of these passages together, and the synthesis of the result is the true Bible doctrine on the question with which you are concerned. A verse from Moses, and one from Ezekiel, and one from Paul, put side by side, each illuminating the others, fit into the perfect pattern of the whole design and give the whole light which God has been pleased to reveal on that particular theme. Taken one by one, the verses may be no more than mere shapes, meaningless as far as the over-all purpose of the inspired revelation is concerned. This is why the Lord says that one of the first principles of Bible study is that no Scripture is of "private interpretation" (II Peter 1:20)." -(Donald Grey Barnhouse - The Invisible War).
[/quote]

Interestingly, and for what it's worth, this verse in II Peter isn't about the interpretation of prophecy, rather, it's about the origin of prophecy.

2 Peter 1:20-21 ESV
(20) knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.
(21) For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter 1:20-21 NET
(20) Above all, you do well if you recognize this: no prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet's own imagination,
(21) for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Exit40 on Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:56 am

shorttribber wrote:God has control of me....and I'm still a mess :mrgreen:


:laugh:

Ditto. I'm not trying to be perfect. I am trying to do good.

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And Grace, my fears relieved.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Jericho on Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:03 am

I guess you mean something different that what I mean when I think "title deed".


Hi Mark. Were using human terminology here to describe spiritual transactions so it may not be completely apt. However I think it's clear God gave man dominion over the earth, and human government is currently ruling the earth. When Adam sinned he opened a door for Satan to operate in this world and to have influence over the nations. But there is a time when human government will end, Satan will be bound, and God will rule on earth.

Nothing prevents Him, so far as I can tell. He simply has chosen the time to act according to His Own reasoning, and I can only guess what that may be.


There does seem to be preconditions for Jesus to return, for one he say's he will not return until the Jews acknowledge their transgression, which happens near the end of the tribulation (Matthew 23:39, Hosea 5:15). The other "could" be taking back Earth's title deed.

Interestingly, and for what it's worth, this verse in II Peter isn't about the interpretation of prophecy, rather, it's about the origin of prophecy.


A minor quibble. The point I was making is things are not always explicitly spelled out in the bible, such as the trinity, but the concept is there.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Keeping Alert on Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:11 pm

Some believe the first seal opened in Revelation is the title deed to the earth (Rev 5), and the point at which God fully takes it back.


Jericho, as I re-read your theory, I found this interesting and remember that I had heard this before.

Mark, any take on this? What is the scroll that the seals hold in place?
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby mark s on Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:08 am

Jericho wrote:
I guess you mean something different that what I mean when I think "title deed".


Hi Mark. Were using human terminology here to describe spiritual transactions so it may not be completely apt. However I think it's clear God gave man dominion over the earth, and human government is currently ruling the earth. When Adam sinned he opened a door for Satan to operate in this world and to have influence over the nations. But there is a time when human government will end, Satan will be bound, and God will rule on earth.


Hi Jericho,

Most certainly Satan, as well as other angels, have influence in the world. I'd say that is well supported in the Bible, for instance:

Ephesians 2:1-3 ESV
(1) And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
(2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
(3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

But as you continue to speak of the "title deed to the earth", I'll need you to define what you mean when you say "title deed", if this is not ownership. My understanding of that term is that the person to whom "title deed" is given is the owner of that which is deeded.

Nothing prevents Him, so far as I can tell. He simply has chosen the time to act according to His Own reasoning, and I can only guess what that may be.


There does seem to be preconditions for Jesus to return, for one he say's he will not return until the Jews acknowledge their transgression, which happens near the end of the tribulation (Matthew 23:39, Hosea 5:15). The other "could" be taking back Earth's title deed.


You had asked, what prevents God from intervening. God can intervene at any time of His choosing. Whether of not there are preconditions to Jesus' return is another question entirely.
Interestingly, and for what it's worth, this verse in II Peter isn't about the interpretation of prophecy, rather, it's about the origin of prophecy.


A minor quibble. The point I was making is things are not always explicitly spelled out in the bible, such as the trinity, but the concept is there.


When presenting an assertion of doctrine that isn't "spelled out" in the Bible, I personally try to maintain an extremely high standard of interpretation of passages (not to mention all other times). Now, the example of the Trinity, to me, is an entirely different matter. There are numerous passages which specify a single Diety. There are numerous passages which identify the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as distinct Persons, Each God, and each responsible for numerous acts performed by God. So yes, the doctrine is not stated as such, however, it has a very solid foundation, and there are no verses that say, for instance, that the Son is not God.

While in this case, there are numerous verses which plainly state that God owns the earth and everything in it.

Love in Christ,
Mark
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby mark s on Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:21 am

Keeping Alert wrote:
Some believe the first seal opened in Revelation is the title deed to the earth (Rev 5), and the point at which God fully takes it back.


Jericho, as I re-read your theory, I found this interesting and remember that I had heard this before.

Mark, any take on this? What is the scroll that the seals hold in place?


Hi KA,

I've heard a number of expositors assert that the scroll in Revelation 5 is just as Jericho says, the "title deed to the earth". However, the number of people who believe a certain thing is not evidence for whether or not that thing is true.

Given the repetition that God owns the earth and everything in it, in both New and Old Testaments, I don't see how that interpretation is allowable. There is also the fact that it is never identified as having anything to do with ownership of the earth.

There is also this. What did Jesus purchase through His death? Here again, I think the answer is plainly stated in Scripture. He purchased us. People, not real estate.

Now, to answer your question, what is this scroll, again, I'd have to say that it is not identified by name.

We have the scroll in Ezekiel, which bears a resemblance to this one, which is described as:

Ezekiel 2:9-10 ESV
(9) And when I looked, behold, a hand was stretched out to me, and behold, a scroll of a book was in it.
(10) And he spread it before me. And it had writing on the front and on the back, and there were written on it words of lamentation and mourning and woe. Certainly upon opening this scroll judgments begin.

I can only speculate at this point, but the best answer, to me, is that this is a scroll of judgment. Jesus was appointed judge of humanity, therefore only Jesus can open the scroll. This is what makes sense to me. Again, this is speculation, since these things are not specifically stated.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:51 am

We have the scroll in Ezekiel, which bears a resemblance to this one, which is described as:

Ezekiel 2:9-10 ESV
(9) And when I looked, behold, a hand was stretched out to me, and behold, a scroll of a book was in it.
(10) And he spread it before me. And it had writing on the front and on the back, and there were written on it words of lamentation and mourning and woe.

Certainly upon opening this scroll judgments begin.

I can only speculate at this point, but the best answer, to me, is that this is a scroll of judgment. Jesus was appointed judge of humanity, therefore only Jesus can open the scroll. This is what makes sense to me. Again, this is speculation, since these things are not specifically stated.


Thanks Mark. If scriptures interprete scriptures, then that makes lots of sense.

KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Jericho on Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:00 am

mark s wrote:But as you continue to speak of the "title deed to the earth", I'll need you to define what you mean when you say "title deed", if this is not ownership. My understanding of that term is that the person to whom "title deed" is given is the owner of that which is deeded.


Mark, perhaps "lease" is a better word and to think of God as the landlord of Earth. Altho I don't want to get too dogmatic about the wording. But I have no problem believing God "leased" earth to Adam for a period of time, and Adam left the door open for Satan to squat (as in squatter).

While in this case, there are numerous verses which plainly state that God owns the earth and everything in it.


And there are also verses which plainly state man has dominion over the earth.

There is also this. What did Jesus purchase through His death? Here again, I think the answer is plainly stated in Scripture. He purchased us. People, not real estate.


It may be telling when John laments there is no one worthy to open the scrolls. Why is John so upset when Jesus has already redeemed us? Perhaps Jesus did not only redeem us but the earth as well. People are not the only thing that needs redeemed. When Adam sinned it not only affected humanity but all of creation:

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:20 am

mark s wrote:What did Jesus purchase through His death? Here again, I think the answer is plainly stated in Scripture. He purchased us. People, not real estate.


So very true :banana:

mark s wrote:the number of people who believe a certain thing is not evidence for whether or not that thing is true.


True again

mark s wrote:I can only speculate at this point, but the best answer, to me, is that this is a scroll of judgment. Jesus was appointed judge of humanity, therefore only Jesus can open the scroll. This is what makes sense to me. Again, this is speculation, since these things are not specifically stated.


Yep

Jericho wrote:John says the whole world is under the control of the evil one (1Jo 5:19). Satan tempted Jesus by showing Him all the kingdoms of the world and said all the authority (of these kingdoms) would be given to Him if He would worship Satan. This claim of ownership was never contested by Jesus and Satan could not tempt Jesus with something he did not have (Luke 4:5-7


Notice this..."John says the whole world is under the control of the evil one"
Not so..... because Satan made a certain claim is PROOF that It Was a Lie............Because HE IS the Father of Lies, and IN HIM is NO Truth..........THEREFORE, NO TRUTH can Proceed From His Mouth.

Because Jesus did not Contest it is Not Proof either......The Lord Jesus simply Let Him Think he had, and Currently Has All Power and Authority over ALL the Kingdoms of the earth.......The Lord simply let him alone to think so Foolishly.

And this Idea...."Satan could not tempt Jesus with something he did not have"
There was and is a certain amount of Power and Control over the Kingdoms that Satan Had and Has that Could Have been a temptation to Christ to Take back Immediately upon being Thus Tempted, but Christ knew it was simply not yet time and that Satan was basically an Idiot for even speaking so Foolishly.

Now, this is not to say that anyone who believes the "Title Deed" Idea we are discussing are also thinking "Foolishly", it is just that they are thinking Incorrectly.

The Foolishness aspect of What the Loser THINKS and has SAID is in the Preposterous Idea in Thinking that God HAS Truly Given him Ultimate Control and Ownership of Anything that Truly God Himself OWNS.

The Loser will Learn Differently very soon. :armor:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby mark s on Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:59 am

Jericho wrote:
mark s wrote:But as you continue to speak of the "title deed to the earth", I'll need you to define what you mean when you say "title deed", if this is not ownership. My understanding of that term is that the person to whom "title deed" is given is the owner of that which is deeded.


Mark, perhaps "lease" is a better word and to think of God as the landlord of Earth. Altho I don't want to get too dogmatic about the wording. But I have no problem believing God "leased" earth to Adam for a period of time, and Adam left the door open for Satan to squat (as in squatter).

While in this case, there are numerous verses which plainly state that God owns the earth and everything in it.


And there are also verses which plainly state man has dominion over the earth.


Hi Jericho,

Again, dominion and ownership are two different things. And where in Scripture would I find this idea that God "leased" the earth to Adam?

There is also this. What did Jesus purchase through His death? Here again, I think the answer is plainly stated in Scripture. He purchased us. People, not real estate.


It may be telling when John laments there is no one worthy to open the scrolls. Why is John so upset when Jesus has already redeemed us? Perhaps Jesus did not only redeem us but the earth as well. People are not the only thing that needs redeemed. When Adam sinned it not only affected humanity but all of creation:

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.


How is John's weeping evidence that God gave away ownership of the earth?

God cursed the ground because of man, but the ground did not sin, requiring propitiation. Just that the curse be lifted.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Jericho on Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:51 pm

Again, dominion and ownership are two different things. And where in Scripture would I find this idea that God "leased" the earth to Adam?


I think I've tried to make the case for that already. It's a matter of connecting the dots. In short:
1)We know God gave dominion to man
2)Dominion by it's very definition implies sovereignty or control
3)We know Satan is the god of this world, so man lost control
4)We know God is not in control yet, that comes later (otherwise the earth wouldn't be so messed up)
5)We can surmise God gave control to man who gave control to Satan, call it a deed or a lease or whatever you want

How is John's weeping evidence that God gave away ownership of the earth?


I will pose some questions to you. Why is John weeping that no one can open the scroll? Can we conclude that the scroll is more than a judgement and that is why John is upset that no one can open it? Why is Jesus the only one that can open the seal? Could it be as a redeemer he is also the only one who can redeem the earth? These things only make sense to me in context of a title deed.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:22 pm

Jericho wrote:4)We know God is not in control yet, that comes later (otherwise the earth wouldn't be so messed up)


It is not accurate to assume that God is not "In Control", He Absolutely Is in Ultimate Control.......He is God Almighty.
He has Only Allowed the freewill of Evil Entities and Evil Men to Prove His Ultimate Authority and Power EVEN WHILE ALLOWING the Vessels of Wrath to Reveal His Might and Glory in the End.

Satan can do Absolutely Nothing, not having the least bit of "Control" when, at Any Time, God should decide to pluck up or pull down Any Nation or Kingdom. see Jer. 18.

What Shall we Say then to the Potter? God, You do not have Control Yet.

Oh, He certainly Does.

Jericho wrote:I will pose some questions to you. Why is John weeping that no one can open the scroll? Can we conclude that the scroll is more than a judgement and that is why John is upset that no one can open it? Why is Jesus the only one that can open the seal? Could be as a redeemer he is also the only one who can redeem the earth? These things only make sense to me in context of a title deed.


After Mark answers this...I will also ok?
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby mark s on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:15 pm

Jericho wrote:
I think I've tried to make the case for that already. It's a matter of connecting the dots. In short:
1)We know God gave dominion to man


But dominion over what?

Genesis 1:28
28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Adam was given dominion over the fish, birds, and animals.

However, to the one man obeys, to that one he becomes their slave. So man became a slave to sin, and taken captive by the devil.

2)Dominion by it's very definition implies sovereignty or control
3)We know Satan is the god of this world, so man lost control
4)We know God is not in control yet, that comes later (otherwise the earth wouldn't be so messed up)
5)We can surmise God gave control to man who gave control to Satan, call it a deed or a lease or whatever you want


The rest of this becomes non sequitor, since the dominion given to man was over the other living creatures, not over the earth, therefore ownership of the earth in any kind was never a part of this.

How is John's weeping evidence that God gave away ownership of the earth?


I will pose some questions to you. Why is John weeping that no one can open the scroll? Can we conclude that the scroll is more than a judgement and that is why John is upset that no one can open it? Why is Jesus the only one that can open the seal? Could it be as a redeemer he is also the only one who can redeem the earth? These things only make sense to me in context of a title deed.


You have avoided answering my question.

Nonetheless, I won't avoid answering yours.

Why is John weeping that no one can open the scroll? Because it made him very sad. But exactly why? In reality, you'd have to ask John. Perhaps because he thought a delay in concluding judgment meant a delay in the coming kingdom of righteousness. Perhaps he simply knew it was terribly important, being in God's hand and all.

Why is Jesus the only one who can open it? Perhaps because only by successfully concluding His work on earth reconciling man to God, this authenticated the authority given Him by the Father to judge humanity. Remember, Jesus did not purchase the earth. He already owned it. He purchased the people, who were sold into slavery.

Can you conclude that the scroll is more than a judgment? Certainly! It appears that in fact you have done just that. But on what basis?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Jericho on Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:01 am

I don't have much time right now, so this will be brief.

shorttribber wrote:It is not accurate to assume that God is not "In Control", He Absolutely Is in Ultimate Control.


I would agree ST, God is in control. But would you agree God does have self-imposed limitations? For instance he can't lie, or do evil, and he won't make someone serve him. The point I'm making is that if God put's a spiritual law in place, then even He won't violate it. Not because He can't but because He won't. Otherwise He wouldn't be a just God.

mark s wrote:Adam was given dominion over the fish, birds, and animals.


Mark, could Genesis 1:28 be a figurative way of saying God gave dominion over everything? If there is any doubt, I believe Psalm 8:6 make it clear, "You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,"

Why is John weeping that no one can open the scroll? Because it made him very sad. But exactly why? In reality, you'd have to ask John. Perhaps because he thought a delay in concluding judgment meant a delay in the coming kingdom of righteousness. Perhaps he simply knew it was terribly important, being in God's hand and all.


I agree it's speculative either way.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:24 am

Jericho wrote:I would agree ST, God is in control. But would you agree God does have self-imposed limitations? For instance he can't lie, or do evil, and he won't make someone serve him. The point I'm making is that if God put's a spiritual law in place, then even He won't violate it. Not because He can't but because He won't. Otherwise He wouldn't be a just God.


I agree, yes.....but you also said...
Jericho wrote:4)We know God is not in control yet, that comes later (otherwise the earth wouldn't be so messed up)

So, Obviously He IS in Complete, and Almighty Control......But, he does have Self-imposed Limitations. That speaks of course to his Sovereignty.....and we can not remotely grasp that as Clay Pots.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:34 am

Psalm 8
"6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:"


First part of this Verse pertains to the First Adam, and the Second part refers to the Second Adam. And Not the least bit of Direct Ownership Relinquished by God to the First Adam, but Given by Inheritance to the Second.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Jericho on Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:05 am

shorttribber wrote:Psalm 8
"6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:"


First part of this Verse pertains to the First Adam, and the Second part refers to the Second Adam. And Not the least bit of Direct Ownership Relinquished by God to the First Adam, but Given by Inheritance to the Second.


"man" is synonymous for all mankind. The second part is inferred by you.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:22 am

Jericho wrote:"man" is synonymous for all mankind. The second part is inferred by you.

shorttribber wrote:Psalm 8"6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet::"First part of this Verse pertains to the First Adam, and the Second part refers to the Second Adam. And Not the least bit of Direct Ownership Relinquished by God to the First Adam, but Given by Inheritance to the Second.
"man" is synonymous for all mankind. The second part is inferred by you.


not so....what I mentioned is Clearly laid out by Paul....." thou hast put all things under his feet:"Is a Prophetic Utterance in the psalms that Absolutely Speak of Christ ONLY........it is not an Inference.

1Cor 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby Jericho on Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:39 am

I'm not convinced the two verses are connected, "all things" is not the same as "all enemies", one is general the other is specific. Psalm 8 is clearly talking about mankind, "you have made him a little lower than the angels."
Regardless Paul is speaking future tense, "Till he puts all enemies under his feet". That would suggest all things are not currently under His feet.
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Re: Earth's title deed

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:28 pm

Jericho wrote:I'm not convinced the two verses are connected, "all things" is not the same as "all enemies", and Psalm 8 is clearly talking about mankind, "you have made him a little lower than the angels." Regardless Paul is speaking future tense, "Till he puts all enemies under his feet". That would suggest all things are not currently under His feet.

Then I will further attempt to convince you that they are indeed connected.
Psalms 8
2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of ...........thine enemies,........ that thou mightest .............still the enemy............. and the avenger.
Math 21
15 And when the............... chief priests and scribes ...................saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,
16 And said unto him, .................Hearest thou what these say?................. And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?
Math 11
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast.............. revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 .....................................................All things................................................. are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

........................................... "all things" is not the same as "all enemies", ..............................................

Jesus Clearly Referenced Psalm 8:2.......as He did "still the enemy" by His Word and Ministry.
................................................................................................................................................

"Regardless Paul is speaking future tense, "Till he puts all enemies under his feet". That would suggest all things are not currently under His feet."

Of Course....but speaking of something Future is in agreement with the Prophetic Nature of the Second half of Psalm 8:6

Let's look at the wording and compare it to another text....

Psalm 8:6B "thou............... hast................. put all things under his feet:"

Hast....As Though it had Already Occurred, as though it pertains to Adam, or Man in general right? How could it speak of Christ if he had not yet come? is that your reasoning?

Then let's look at the following text for comparison......

Psalm 68
18 Thou................. hast.................... ascended on high, thou................ hast................. led captivity captive: thou..................... hast.................... received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Christ had not Yet Come when This prophecy was Uttered and Sung of Him.

So you see, Because "All things, to Include, All Enemies" are Not yet put under Christ's Feet, does not mean that Psalm 8:6B does not Clearly Reference Him.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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