Can Christians Be Deceived

[Dusty]

http://www.understandthetimes.org/comme ... ived.shtml

If our battle is not against flesh and blood, then why is it that when we are in conflicts here on this earth that flesh and blood always show up? What are the reasons for this? Is it possible for believers to be agents for darkness and not even know it? Is it possible for entire organizations to be misled because they have not kept their focus on Jesus Christ and His Word? How is it possible for believers and even leaders to believe they are following Jesus, when instead they are following man? These and other questions intrigue me. Only the Bible has the answers. And though, I am sure, not all of these questions will be answered fully in this life, we can gain the vital insights that we need from the Word of God. The book of Revelation, which has often been ignored for a lack of understanding, will prove to be more and more insightful in these last days before Jesus returns.
For example, the letters to the seven churches have much to say about churches going apostate. In Revelation, it foretells how the whole world will be wrapped up in vast delusion and apostasy. We are seeing that happening right now. And just as God used His humble servant, John, to warn the churches to get their houses in order, God is sounding out a warning again to the churches that will listen. Repentance has always been the trademark of those who are His. They know that God will come back for a church “not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:27). It has been said that the church has a lot of washing and ironing to do before Jesus returns if we are to be without “spot or wrinkle.”

But just as the churches in Revelation were given opportunity to repent, so is that invitation going out today. The Bible warns:

[F]or the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17)

This is a very sober warning, and as we hear the voices of many scoffers throughout the land, we can hear the thunderings of judgment, in the distance, approaching closer by the day.
One thing the Bible is very clear on, we cannot serve man and God at the same time.

Much more at above link

[Abiding in His Word]

Excellent article Dusty! I agree this is a major problem today:

Another thing new Christians (and old ones too) run into is being taught to unquestionably follow the teachings of their pastors and elders. They are told they lack the spiritual maturity to decipher spiritual matters on their own, and that by obeying their leaders, they are obeying God

I have seen this over and over where believers no longer think for themselves nor check out the Word of God for themselves. They have enveloped themselves with a false sense of security by relying solely on their pastors and elders.

Erroneous teachings get handed down from generation to generation "just because" it's always been taught that way!

[Ready1]

Not much different from the RCC for hundreds of years prior to the availability of the written word.

[Sunny]

Excellent article, Dusty.

And yes, I believe that Christians can be deceived if they do not vigilantly stay in their Bibles so they don't drift off course.

I fell for the prosperity gospel hook, line and sinker years ago. It took some very painful discipline from the Lord, and getting back into studying what the Bible actually says, not what preachers told me it said.

That's where the deception creeps in. Not reading the Bible in context and applying what is there to our lives.

I thank God for His discipline and His mercy.

[GodsStudent]

My mother is encouraging us to go to a church that is not speaking about end times. My daughter's best friend's mother, who has become a pretty good friend of mine, is constantly inviting us to their church....THE church that is not speaking about end times. ( I know because I called the church secretary and she'd never heard of that, but she was quick to tell me they have 849 different bible studies and book studies and so forth going on at any one time and about 15 sermons that start on Saturday morning and don't stop until Sunday night, and we can dress like morons and fit in if we'de like.....ok, she didn't exactly say that, but the come as you are in our area really does mean no decorum is needed).

Im at a compromising roads.....compromise what I know is right just to manipulate my daughter to go to church and of course to please my mother and my daughter's best friend's mom, who really likes me and wants me to start doing bible studies with her and her friends....

and so my mom got wind of this and said I should just relax on this end time thing because when she was a little girl, back in the 50s or so, everyone thought it was the end time and they all preached the last days constantly and they were wrong, so every generation does this whole end time thingy.

What a quandry.

YES, emphatically, Christians can be deceived. They're everywhere, and here I am....on an island seemingly by myself...with all my friends and loved ones hovering.....like this......

So, I cut my mother off and she promptly said "with love in her voice" that we should be able to talk about these things without getting upset....let me translate....that will never happen...because I will never see it her way and she will never see it mine. My daughter's friend's mom....she is going to be very upset when I say we've decided against their huge church with tons of great stuff, and the reason she really wants us to join in is so our daughters, neither who wants to do church, will be able to "do church together." ....oh, and our husband's too.....

but where will that leave me....I'll tell you....biting my tongue.....a whole lot...and sulking in silence as we all avoid the elephant in the room.

I am struggling with this ....anyone have a word for me?

[Abiding in His Word]

I am struggling with this ....anyone have a word for me?

I attend church on-line. I know that won't meet everyone's needs, but I've been very happy with it for the past year or so. Check it out here if you want to. It may fill a temporary need until you find one. The service is posted on Sat. till Mon. and we are just finishing the book of Hebrews.

I'm convinced most will not find a church they agree with 100%, but hopefully find one where they can be comfortable with other believers and have the freedom to express differences in doctrine without fear of retaliation. I also advise against ever signing membership contracts/covenants and can't for the life of me why some churches require it.

I can relate to and sympathize with some of your circumstances, Lisa. I've come to the conclusion that life is just one long series of one issue after another that hopefully enable us to eventually become expert problem-solvers!

[Sunny]

I can relate to and sympathize with some of your circumstances, Lisa. I've come to the conclusion that life is just one long series of one issue after another that hopefully enable us to eventually become expert problem-solvers!

That's as nicely as I've ever seen it put.

A long time ago I seriously wondered what we were going to have to deal with in heaven if we had to grow such patience and endurance here to prepare for it!

[Dusty]

I sometimes wonder how it will be in heaven where we will once again be in fellowship with those who likely are indeed saved but who hate (maybe too strong a word) others because they don't agree with them. Will they still cross the street to avoid us? I'm being mostly silly but I do wonder at times.

[daffodyllady]

Of course Christians can be deceived.
The following verses are meaningless, if Christians cannot be deceived:

1John 3:7 "Little children, let no man deceive you..."

2Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means..."

Mark 13:5 "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you..."

Mat 24:24 "for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen."
(I quoted the Youngs Literal Translation here. The KJV inserts two words not found in the Greek: "if it were possible"... which changes the meaning.)

There are many verses that also warn against falling away. And then there are verses that contain that God-breathed qualifier "IF". Like these:

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1Corinthians 15:1,2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

Hebrews 10:38 " and `the righteous by faith shall live,' and `IF he may draw back, My soul hath no pleasure in him" (YLT--because the KJV added words which changed the meaning.)

2Peter 2:20,21 For IF after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

There are so many more verses that tell us Christians can be deceived... But this post is getting long.

As for finding fellowship... I don't think it is as important that we find someone who believes exactly the way we do about the end times. After all, God will reveal those things as time progresses. But the basics are these, in my estimation:

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
As long as a church does not deny the pure doctrine of Jesus Christ, and is filled with the Spirit of God, I count them my brothers and sisters in the Lord. I don't have to divide the body of Christ over non-essentials.

[Jay Ross]

God’s Student,

<snip>

but where will that leave me....I'll tell you....biting my tongue.....a whole lot...and sulking in silence as we all avoid the elephant in the room.

I am struggling with this ....anyone have a word for me?

I started to attend a church and one Sunday a Canadian male person cornered me and asked, “When did you receive your Salvation?” Well that burred me up the wrong way, this person had his story and it was a great story and if you had time he would tell you the long version of how he had received his salvation many years before, but he wanted to know everybody else’s story.

I was not a story teller like him and my story is, “Yea, it happened back in my past, but it is the wrong question to be asking me right now, you know. A better question to ask, and please allow me to ask you it if you will allow me to, is, “How is your relationship right now with the God that you worship at this very moment?" Well, he told me that his relationship with the God that he worshipped was okay at that moment but later I caught sight of him when his countenance facade had dropped and I could not see any joy on show in the face that was on show at that moment. It was as if he put on display a book cover when he thought that others were watching him that did not match the actual contents of the book and he knew that he had something missing but did not want to show others.

Now if your relationship with the God that you worship is okay and you have joy all the time in that relationship, then if the God that you are in relationship with is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then you are very lucky and I would guess that your mum and your friends would be jealous of you because you have the presence of God in your everyday life which is, I guess, what they are searching for by going to a Church that has the appearance of being alive.

Now if you have this relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then why do you need someone to be able to give you a “word” to “comfort” you when you are in this deep and meaningful relationship with the comforter which it would seem your mother and your friends are searching for?.

Now, Abraham was counted as being righteous because he believed God’s “End Time” promises even though he himself would not live (in our present form) to see them come into reality. So it is with us, {until the last generation who will be alive on the great day of the Lord}, our righteous with be counted unto us if we will “believe in Him whom he has sent.” If we believe, then we will be doing the work of the Kingdom. If we believe we will be demonstrating that belief by our relationship with our God, our neighbours and our friends. I believe that Isaiah 58 gives us a clue of what God expects of us and of how he expects us to respond in relationship with him.

The “end times” only becomes the elephant in the room if we make it so by focusing on the wrong part of the story which is the story of what our relationship is right here and now with our God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

May your joy in the Lord increase as you follow His word and His desires for you? Amen.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Edited to correct some clangers.]

[Abiding in His Word]

Now if you have this relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then why do you need someone to be able to give you a “word” to “comfort” you when you are in this deep and meaningful relationship with the comforter which it would seem your mother and your friends are searching for?.

If I'm misunderstanding this statement, Jay, please correct me. But I hope you're not implying that believers shouldn't ask for help, comfort, advice, etc. during times of stress or sorrow in their lives. Because it's not reasonable to expect joy in every situation we find ourselves in from time to time.

That's the beauty of the body's ministry one to another. After all, even Jesus experienced the full range of ups and downs we do; He was weary, hungry, thirsty, etc. And he experienced compassion, grief, anger and love. He ministered to many, and many ministered to Him. We do likewise.

[Jay Ross]

Now if you have this relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then why do you need someone to be able to give you a “word” to “comfort” you when you are in this deep and meaningful relationship with the comforter which it would seem your mother and your friends are searching for?.

If I'm misunderstanding this statement, Jay, please correct me. But I hope you're not implying that believers shouldn't ask for help, comfort, advice, etc. during times of stress or sorrow in their lives. Because it's not reasonable to expect joy in every situation we find ourselves in from time to time.

That's the beauty of the body's ministry one to another. After all, even Jesus experienced the full range of ups and downs we do; He was weary, hungry, thirsty, etc. And he experienced compassion, grief, anger and love. He ministered to many, and many ministered to Him. We do likewise.

Yes you are right. You are misunderstanding what I have written.

Now an absences of "motherhood" statements concerning body ministry does not mean that I am advocating that people should not seek that out from loving, genuine, God fearing people. However, I sense that there is an underlying issue that is being discerned by GodsStudent which she should rightfully fear. It was for that reason that I was pointing to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who only had God to interact with within their circumstances and that they were content with that. Abraham in Genesis only had a handful of recorded interactions with God over approximately 58 years. {There were nine recorded, to be precise.} Isaac, on the other hand during his lifetime only had two recorded interactions with the Lord. For Jacob, in Genesis, it is recorded that he had six encounters with the Lord.

Now Jacob’s strength was that he was able to see God’s protective covering in the form of an army of angels around him. The Book of Genesis is silent as to whether or not Abraham or Isaac could see God’s protection around them.

All three were content with the Lord and they did not lose their resolve to believe by faith the promises that God has made concerning man’s future salvation. So it should be with us. We should trust God’s prompting and leading. At the time of God’s prompting in our lives we may not see God’s hand in it but when the dust settles we often have time to reflect on what has occurred and we can perceive that God’s hand was indeed at work within our lives.

Now the Jewish Oral Tradition suggests that Abraham had an open table for people who passed by his tent where he probably took the time to tell his visitors about God and what He has promised to do for mankind. In Genesis, we are told that Abraham instructed his third family in the ways a man should interact with God and this lead too five hundred and twenty or so years later one of Abraham’s descendants from his third family to patiently sit in a desert to wait for a man who would come to him to receive instruction on how to interact with the Lord God of Abraham. This man was known to be a Friend of God.

I wonder if this man in the desert had the luxury of “a family body ministry” to answer his questions of doubts as he waited for God’s purposes to begin to unfold for his life. His strength was that he believed the God of his forefather Abraham, and was patient for God’s plan to unfold without falling apart.

In our relationship with God, He will bring encouragement to us to keep us strong in His purposes for us and it may surprise us that we will have the patience of Job as we hold onto his promises for our life.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Abiding in His Word]

OK, Jay, thanks for clarifying. But I'm still seeing a pointed reference to OT saints who apparently did not need the counsel or encouragement from other believers. You said:

I wonder if this man in the desert had the luxury of “a family body ministry” to answer his questions of doubts as he waited for God’s purposes to begin to unfold for his life.

The luxury of a "family body ministry" is one of the reasons the NT is better than the OT! 12 times in Hebrews alone Paul tells how it's better. Every gift of every believer is given for the express purpose of edifying and maturing the body of Christ. The phrase "one-another" is found about 75 times in the NT reflecting the interaction between believers so no one should have to "go it alone" so to speak and should feel free to ask for whatever the need is at the moment. Needlesstosay, interaction with other believers does not take the place of reliance on the Lord, but they often go hand-in-hand.

[GodsStudent]

I suppose I will need to read your responses a few more times before they click for me. At present, I feel misunderstood. My family goes to a Methodist Church....my parents, etal. believe as Preterists, stand against Israel (in so much as the Methodist Church has adopted replacement theology and is on board with supporting the Palastinines).....the new church we are being asked to attend is much the same.....

For a church that has 569 (ok, I exaggerated, but not by much) bible studies going on, tell me, how is it we miss ALL THE SCRIPTURES which point to the end times, to Israel and the entire middle east, America and the whole rest of the world IN the end times, etc., etc., etc.....

So, I fully expect my mother to be supportive of a church which doesn't support my views of an end time current situation. She is not hearing it at her Methodist Church, did hear it in her non denominational childhood church during the 50s, and feels I am off on some tangit.....with all this end time watching that I do.

The friend's church....well....split the difference, it's the same environment.

I find it intolerable that I have to compromise and submit myself to a place where, in the midst of the world we live in right this minute, the second most amazing thing that has ever happened on this planet (not the 1st coming of Christ, but His second coming) is imminent in this generation, and we are not interested enough or learned enough to discuss it's happening. How can I go there every Sunday and weekdays too feeling resentment that it's not important enough to the very Saints of the Most High Christ Jesus to stop and look around....to look up like the scriptures tell us to do?

It is a compromise for me, one I am finding very hard to imagine I must make. My family went to a TRUE Philadelphia church here in our hometown and my daughter didn't like it because they didn't have "designer Sunday school and lots of fun stuff for the kids" and frankly, my husband didn't like the lack of "showmanship" since any performances were to bring glory to the Lord and not man....Every time I stepped foot in that building, I cried, because the presence of the Lord was at the very door to greet us....and it overwhelmed me. The sermons challenged me....

My husband knows how this grieves me...this decision. He says for me to decide and we will go wherever I will be happy, but the problem is, I would be happy only at the church of Philadelphia (as far as my blunt and decided heart can see...the realist that I am)....and my husband and daughter want all the pageantry that serves to lift up men and women and make them the focus....when we go to church, for just that two or three hours a week that we are there, I want it to be all about God and His Word....about Christ....about the truth......THEN I am challenged....THEN I grow.....THEN I feel true humility.....

and if I choose the "right church" for me it's the "wrong church" for my husband and my daughter.....but then, there is a reason for that, too....if you know what I'm saying.

I do listen online to powerful sermons that rock me to my core and I am being fed, but of course, my daughter and my husband are not getting fed, and so their conditions deteriorate.....something must be done....we must follow scripture's commandment to forsake not the assembling....

perhaps Jay, you are telling me that I must focus on my own relationship with the Lord and be content to have it and to let my little light shine wherever I am put....but if I am put there, it is not in my heart to be there....I want to be with the serious minded in Christ, where I can be challenged to continue to grow and be evermore sanctified. I can't talk with my mother about this (2 sentences in and I am certain it's a mistake), because she is a part of those who love, love, love church and their church family and all they do with and for church....yet....the church is centered around so much "them" that the Bridegroom is soon to come and not one of them is anticipating His return with any sense of the time we are in right this minute.....no clue as to scriptures, following them....seeing them unfold or appropriately applying discernment to the things going on in our country in our planet....the whole of it....it's underlying theme....why it's happening....is lost to them all......I cannot tell you how incredibly painful it is for me to see this happening with these people out there....my own parents and family and so many friends...it genuinely breaks my heart......

and to say that I am going to gleefully join the ranks....well....to deny the very essence of this day brings me not glee, but much sorrow, and this is why I said I would sit and sulk while there....because the elephant is sitting on me, I cannot breath, and the silence is deafening to me.

I am sorry that I have just let it all out here, but this is a huge thing going on in my life and it is completely in line with the subject matter of this thread....Can Christians Be Deceived. Yes, they can, and I earnestly feel I am at one of those such crossroads where Christians compromise on something for whatever their reasons and they end up compromised themselves....Sure I may go eyes wide open, but will I be able to have joy? I don't think so.

We have a Calvary Chapel nearby and while I personally don't like the music, I think I'd prefer that to this church, so I may just compromise in that way....I am still looking for edification and to learn from you all....which is why I keep trying to share what is going thru my mind. I will read Jay's posts a few more times to see if I can understand them better.

[Jay Ross]

I suppose I will need to read your responses a few more times before they click for me. At present, I feel misunderstood......

<snip>

I find it intolerable that I have to compromise and submit myself to a place where, in the midst of the world we live in right this minute, the second most amazing thing that has ever happened on this planet (not the 1st coming of Christ, but His second coming) is imminent in this generation, and we are not interested enough or learned enough to discuss it's happening. How can I go there every Sunday and weekdays too feeling resentment that it's not important enough to the very Saints of the Most High Christ Jesus to stop and look around....to look up like the scriptures tell us to do?

<snip>

I do listen online to powerful sermons that rock me to my core and I am being fed, but of course, my daughter and my husband are not getting fed, and so their conditions deteriorate.....something must be done....we must follow scripture's commandment to forsake not the assembling....

perhaps Jay, you are telling me that I must focus on my own relationship with the Lord and be content to have it and to let my little light shine wherever I am put....but if I am put there, it is not in my heart to be there....I want to be with the serious minded in Christ, where I can be challenged to continue to grow and be evermore sanctified.

<snip>

....Can Christians Be Deceived? Yes, they can, and I earnestly feel I am at one of those such crossroads where Christians compromise on something for whatever their reasons and they end up compromised themselves....Sure I may go eyes wide open, but will I be able to have joy? I don't think so.

We have a Calvary Chapel nearby and while I personally don't like the music, I think I'd prefer that to this church, so I may just compromise in that way....I am still looking for edification and to learn from you all....which is why I keep trying to share what is going thru my mind. I will read Jay's posts a few more times to see if I can understand them better.

I am sorry that I am a complex person trying to express God’s heart with mere words. I know your frustration about being with like minded Saints who study the word and glean from it the very essence of what God is trying to convey to the reader. But I too become frustrated with their lack of understanding and unwillingness to be challenged so that their boat like mine is rocked.

Sadly we are a people of tradition and the tradition of miss understanding prevails as people are afraid of changing their “foundational” understanding of scripture.

It is my view that at present, we are coming towards the end of the third 1,000 years period spoken about in Ezekiel 47:1-12 from the time that God’s presence inhabited Solomon’s Temple when it was dedicated. Jesus also spoke of this same time period in the Parable of the Sower but few are able to see the time dimension hidden from view as the sower moves easily from the rocky ground, along a path, across an unprepared ground and finally into the prepared field which is the Millennium Age. Today I would humbly suggest that we have been planted in the unprepared field where the weeds compete with us for life. The cares of this world around us are choking us as we attempt to raise our heads up towards the heavens with our increase of praise unto the Lord.

The above understanding is not what is the “accepted teaching” of the theological elite. Their understanding in my view is, so often, suspect.

A friend of mine told me today that he was invited to go and listen to a “great visiting preacher” from the USA and when he began to investigate the credentials of this preacher, warnings were flashing all over the internet about this preacher and his teachings. Subsequently, he did not accept his friend’s kind invitation and stayed at home instead.

Over the last 50 years when I would go to church I would become uncomfortable about being in the building and would get up and go outside, much to my wife’s horror. It would be noticed by the other attendees and they would seek the Lord as to what was wrong with me and they would then begin to construct various rational theories as to why I had a “problem.” Usually I would be uncomfortable because of the spirit residing in that place/community. But inevitably they would reach the conclusion that it was I who had the problem and that they should be the ones that I should submit myself too for “healing” prayer to have the “evil” spirits cast off of me. Naturally I would decline their offer for prayer based on their divination of what was “wrong” with me for not accepting their teaching insights.

What I have come to understand is that God reveals to me what is grieving his Heart in those places and often I would find myself quietly shedding tears of anguish for the people in there under the respective teaching of their leadership.

If you are being called to this prayer when you enter those places, then you are indeed, rubbing shoulders with the very best Saints in Christ as few are called into this essential, unseen and often unrecognised ministry. It is a ministry with great responsibility as much is revealed to you, but it is a ministry where often your only avenue is to pray unseen for the people that they would be protected from the errors being embellished and that they will turn away and return back into the arms of our loving God.

My understanding of the “End Times Timetable” and how God’s plan will play out is of little consequence when I start to become uncomfortable in any place which I may join to worship in for a time. I usually find that it is my wife who drags me along to the new places where god wants me to be. However, my understanding of words translated as “generation” within the English Bibles does help me to understand their theological position and error, but then that is a topic of another thread maybe, if it has not already been choked to death by the volume of posts on that theme.

It is my view that the actual meanings of the original language words translated as “generation” in our English Bibles would be better served if they were translated as “age, i.e. a period of time a little while longer than 1,000 years. When we understand this possibility of a miss translation then the verses where this occurs takes on a very different time context and inference. Even I am learning new things as I consider words that have been translated as “water,” etc. and begin to see the possibility of a completely different theological thought or concept.

But if I am called to a ministry of prayer these new concepts fall away as I begin to focus on what God is revealing to me in my spirit as to what I should be praying on and over.

It can be a very lonely ministry and one that is not very exciting but then years later your heart becomes glad of the very small part that you prophetically prayed about, when it finally comes into reality in God’s time.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[GodsStudent]

Sure I may go eyes wide open, but will I be able to have joy? I don't think so.

Most certainly as I read my post and I read yours, I have an opportunity for humility and learning. Certainly it is not really all about my happiness as much as it is about my willingness to seek the Lord's Will for myself, for therein, will I have peace. I am among a generation that cannot seem to get enough of anything, and I find myself representative of the same....I want more....for me. In fairness, I have FP, I have more edified and fulfilling resources from the internet, and I have the opportunity to work alone in my home and listen to these all day long while I work, if I so desire...and often I do. The results of this are an ever changing me, and the blessings in my personal growth as a Saint are such that I see what good fruit can produce, and so it is my constant desire to be in the midst of what is producing good fruit. So, naturally, in a "me" generation, I am compelled to only get more, more, more of the same, yet I have chosen to resent being, what I take as being, blocked....and so it astonishes me that what is right for me to do is not necessarily what serves me.....and not necessarily what I see as the glaringly appropriate place for me to be.

Your words have set me to silence, Jay.....because they ring true very deeply in places that make me know I must seek the Lord concerning their content, for indeed, you have awakened my spirit to absolute truth here. I recognize it. It's the thing that makes one go before the Lord in complete silence as the questions come so fast one can barely process them in the conscious mind, and it is time to listen, for indeed, the answers and understanding will rapidly come in the silence and my spirit will know.

I really appreciate your willingness to share on the matters, Jay (and everyone else who has participated). Genuinely, my heart was pricked this morning, and it's so serious as to be a calling for my own life. Which calling will be given definition when I take it to the Lord, but at least I understand that there is more to this than my simple (and in ways selfish) mind could see. Attitude....lol....I am laughing at myself, as I have no problem communicating mine....but how wonderful when one's perception about a thing can be so drastically changed. I am being called to serve...how to serve is what I know the Lord is getting ready to reveal to me...and now, I am happy...because I have a mission coming.

Thank you, again.

[Jay Ross]

Yes, the most important thing to be concerned about is the relationship we have with our Father, God. So often we want all the answers of: - When? Why? Where? What? How? But God only requires an answer too, “Will you do this small thing just for me?” not knowing that all he wants us to do is to begin the journey of a lifetime with him

Seventeen years ago my wife and I both felt that we were being called to go on a mission trip to Kathmandu but the "leader" did not really want us to go with him. He found me difficult to understand and I was uncomfortable with many of his views. He wanted to be dancing up "Revivals" wherever he went. (He had done his PHD on "How revivals were started," and he believed that he had distilled the essence of how to go about that.) I on the other hand sensed that God wanted him to teach on "How to maintain a continuous relationship with God.” I understood that if you can teach people how to maintain their relationship with God, then you will begin a Revival in that place that will last and last and last.

So often the "revivals" that he started with his visits die as soon as he had left because he had not taught on God's essential requirements. But let me go back to this story of mine about how we were able to go on this trip.

The leader was telling us that because we did not have the money to pay for the airline tickets, that perhaps God did not want us to go on the trip. Unbeknown to him, the couple in Kathmandu where we were going to be staying had been praying for someone to help them with the looking after of the people while the people were in their home in Kathmandu. My wife and I knew we both had to go on the trip but we did not have the answers as to “Why we should go?” or “How it would be possible for us to go?”

Well, God used a very small spider to provide the means for us to go on that trip and this is how it came about.

I had gone to the morning pre-service prayer meeting feeling a little despondent with an unknown heavy burden on my heart. At the end of the pre-service prayer time the burden had not left me and I knew that we all should continue to pray but when I asked the people in the pre-service prayer time to stay with me in prayer, many felt that prayer time was over and that they should respect the pastor and go into the service. My heart became even heavier but out of the wood work true intercessors came into the room and joined me with their grunts and groans and funny noises and within ten minutes, the heavy burden had left me and the intercessors once again disappeared into the woodwork, their work done.

I left the room where we had been praying and went into the foyer found where my wife, who had come independently of me, was sitting in the auditorium and went back outside. Five or so minutes later I was approached by a member who was just coming into the service. He informed me that my daughter had had an accident and damaged our vehicle, but that she was okay. It seems that the accident had happened just before the burden had been lifted off of me in the intercessory prayer time after the pre-service prayer time.

Now my recollection of the events is a bit hazy. I think I went back in and told my wife what had happened and maybe I got my work vehicle keys off of her and then went to where the accident had happened. Or I rode my motorbike to the accident and my wife followed in my work car.

When I got there my daughter who was a little shaken up by the accident told me that as she was approaching the bend in the road, a small spider had dropped down from the sunshade in front of her and as she put her hand out to brush the spider out of the way she had steered the van into a large concrete power pole on the edge of the footpath. Fortunately, the impact of the pole was on the front passenger’s side of the van and that side of the car had been caved in with no damage to the car on the driver’s side.

Well the car was a write off and we knew that the in-laws were thinking of getting a new car for the mother in-law so we asked if we could buy their car they were intending to trade in. They also offered to lend us the money so that we could go on the mission trip to Nepal, India, Sri Lanka and Thailand for four weeks. When we received the insurance payout for the van we used that money to pay the airfares for another member of the team so that he could go as well.

(Our association with Nepal has continued ever since and when the Lord prompts us to pray for that country or for the people we know there we follow the Lord’s prompting. At present we have been hosting the daughter of one of the pastors we met on that first trip to Nepal and her husband so that she could complete a degree course in Theology. They have been living in our house now for four years.)

Now the couple in Kathmandu had been prayer for a “cook” to help them prepare the meals for the people with them. That became my role while we were in Kathmandu.

While others on that trip were praying for lots and lots of people, I would hold back and allow the prompting of the Lord to lead me to who I should pray for and when I put out my hand to pray for them I would only get tears to shed over them and all that I could tell them was that god understood their pain and that he had caused me to shed His tears over them.

I was the square peg attempting to fit into a round hole on the trip but I was a very important cog during that trip. Other members of the team may not have thought so but it was what God was getting me to willingly do that was important for the people that I was rubbing my shoulders with. They were the saints that God wanted to be reached out too, through the expression of His love for them through me.

I still do not fully understand why God did what He did that through me. I do not know how each of their respective stories will end nor is it my business to know or find out. That is God’s business and I have no more responsibility to act or interfere in their lives unless the Lord specifically asks me too. I am not even sure if I would even remember who they are. Their respective continuing journey with the Lord is God’s and their business alone to attend too. If I attempt to become involved again, I will be attempting to act God like and the consequences of that could/would be catastrophic for me.

Why am I posting this for you? God knows. It is just how I feel that I am being lead by the Lord.

Shalom

Jay Ross.

[Sunny]

This may be totally off topic, but I would like to share how God spoke to me a couple of days ago.

I have been so burdened by the Christians who are being imprisoned for their faith in repressive countries, and seemingly forgotten.

So a couple of nights ago, I was asking God for answers. Finally, I cried out, "God, why do you choose to limit yourself when you could just free them all?"

A little while later I was reading my Bible and read:

Is My hand shortened at all that it cannot redeem?
Or do I have no power to deliver?
...
The Lord God has given Me the tongue of the learned that I should know how to speak a word in due season to him who is weary.

It was so obvious that God had answered my question. So I told Him, I recognize that You have answered my questions, but I don't really understand Your answer. :)

I kept reading and came to:

Who among you fears the LORD,
who obeys the voice of His Servant,
who walks in darkness and has no light?
Let him trust in the name of the LORD,
and stay upon his God.

(from Isaiah 50)

So God was telling me, trust Him implicitly. He is in control. Wait for Him. He sees the end from the beginning and only He knows what He is working in the lives of those who are imprisoned and in those in prison with them.

Or as my mother used to tell me when I started tattling and minding my sisters' business, "Pull your own little red wagon."

I guess this ties in with what Jay said in that God works His own program and His own plan in each believer's life. And how He works in others is not our business most of the time.

[GodsStudent]

I know that I consciously choose to be a "prayer warrior." I have seen the power of prayer through it's processes and know, not only because the Word says, but because I have witnessed the Word all the way through an issue I and/or others have prayed through, that indeed it is crucial that we all heed Christs' words to "pray ceaselessly." So, as a habit, I have put this in play in my life on a very conscious and purposeful plane. The more I do it, the more see and hear results, because the more people ask me to do it and share with me the net effects of mine and others prayers, all Glory be to God, for it is He Alone who hears and is able to move on those requests we make in our prayers.

I also know that at times I have been called to intercessory prayer. Sometimes when I have a thought that I need to pray for someone or something, before I can conceive the next thought about what I'd like to say in my prayer, I already know what I am supposed to pray for that person or those things, and yet, I never thought it myself. While I have no confidence in my prayers, and could barely conceive doing it aloud or telling others of my prayers, I have absolute faith and confidence that the Lord is listening and acting and all Glory be to Him, working out the seemingly smallest of details in so many lives and things at all times as a result of our prayers....the Lord is profoundly beautiful and exceedingly good to us all. Many times I know to pray a certain way and others would not understand that I truly believe the Holy Spirit is leading me to pray in this manner, and in fact, those who have requested I pray would prefer me to pray the way they asked, which = their will in a matter, but when I go to the Lord in prayer, I am not comfortable to pray the person's will, but only comfortable to take the person and their issues before the Lord and pray He will intervene in a way that brings Him glory and which I know will be beneficial to the person for whom I've prayed.

So, I am aware I just went on a thinking out loud tangit about prayer. My spirit understands now. I have been and will continue to be richly blessed to hear the wonderful Word from those who are spirit filled. I will not be missing a whole lot, because I've already got these resources (online...even the church of Philadelphia I spoke of, which is local to me, has the majority of their sermons and bible studies online). Where my husband and my daughter feel most comfortable is a place where I can and will be led to serve. Imagine that....I have been upset for so long because I was not going to be served.....fed....nourished....and yet, I already am and already get this from my own particular vantage point.

I'm so glad I asked, because now I can take those words of discontent and dissatisfaction in my above posts and replace them with the hope that I can use what I've learned and what has been given to me to serve, the joy of knowing I get to continue to have my cup filled every week, and be a part of showing its impact on me, as an example to those who will be around me....and most of all.....in the privacy of my own being, I can intervene when I see or know where effectual, fervent or intercessory prayer will improve those things that hurt others and hurt me to see happening with others.

Jay, one thing I do well is communicate my displeasure, so it is likewise something else when that displeasure is replaced with genuine acceptance. I honestly did not know how I could "lie" my way through this, forcing myself to do something I didn't want to do, but lately, service has been a big theme in my thoughts. As I am working very hard to, for the first time in my life, use my financial resources extremely wisely, and ensure that I personally follow scripture and have no debt, I am feeling like I don't do enough. Giving money has always been a big way for me to serve, but I have stopped that for a short time in order that I can be faithful about clearing my debts. I want to serve in other ways, and so much has come out of what you've said to me. I see myself in your words and experiences and know it can be a real and genuine service experience for me. While I have always admired those who can teach and who retain information in a certain way that makes them seem to be so intelligent and capable of carrying on in a conversation, this has never been my way. I see what I can't do easily, but sometimes cannot see what I can and should do.

With a new attitude, I should be much more able to go and be a pleasant person to be around. I will not walk in the door with an attitude that says I don't want to be there, because now I know, I can very much be there and be a part in ways that I will be fulfilled with....

[Abiding in His Word]

GodsStudent

[daffodyllady]

I have found that I need the body of Christ not to lean on so much anymore... but to mature me in areas of humbling myself and loving others. I go to church not as much to be ministered to, as to carry the Presence of Jesus there, and to seek ways to bless people in His Name.

Don't get me wrong... as I have humbled myself to serve, I have been served in ways I did not expect. I have found friendships I did not expect. I have found prayer partners I did not expect. And this evening, after prayer meeting, I had a long discussion with my pastor over doctrine, and was surprised at the depth of his convictions. He simply will not allow some things that the denomination allows, because of how the Word speaks on the subject. That blesses me.

I think too many of us go shopping for a church with the mindset of an American Consumer. We look for features that we want, and we will use the "product" (attend the church) as long as it meets our needs. As soon as we feel it no longer meets our needs, we feel free to pitch the "product" and look for another model we think we will like better.

We need to look at church as "family" instead of as a "product."
We need to be looking for opportunities to love and serve, instead of to be loved, and to be served.
It's time to grow up, because we simply don't have much time anymore.

[Dusty]

Wonderful testimonies, just wonderful! May our Lord be magnified in all that we think, say and do.

[GodsStudent]

Abiding....you and ALL of our Mods. are so special to my heart. I look at you as like a mother type figure, for you lead and guide so many with so much wisdom here on FP. I thank God for you...and I thank God for all the mods...you're all so special and it's so clear why you all have the positions you do. I love all of you!!!

I miss BetheMoon....it's been forever since he posted and I don't know what happened with him......

(I hope I didn't wear him out with all my financial disagreement stuff, lol! I still have a lot of his posts saved from years back where he offered a very different opinion of how things will go verses what I thought might happen....variety is the spice of life....and just in case he is right, lol!)

[Jay Ross]

GodsStudent, I was glad to be of service when being so far away even in the ether of the net.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Resurrection Torchlight]

here's a question:

If I as a believer have the mind of Christ as scripture says I do then how can I be deceived?

1 Corinthians 2:11-16
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Either one of two things must be true in order to be deceived, either the Spirit of God (the mind of Christ in the believer) can be deceived or the natural man can be deceived. Since the Holy Spirit cannot be deceived, then I would suggest that those who claim to be "Christians" and yet are deceived are actually functioning as "natural men" and not walking according to the Spirit. This is not to say that all who believe are free from falling into deception, because as we all know we all have times when we fail to walk in the Spirit and instead foster the flesh or the natural man. This is why pursuing maturity in our Christian walk is so important, as we mature we walk less by the flesh and more by the Spirit and are less and less susceptible to deception.

IMO there is an epidemic of infant believers in the church today who are simply stuck there, because they are fed a steady stream of milk and cookies, their faith stagnates. Christianity has become more about "experience" and less about growing in knowledge and understanding and the unfortunate consequence is that there are many more who are quick to fall for deception and false teaching.

RT

[ladilesper]

I think the way Christians are deceived is by not being faithful to the Word of God. They add psychology, science (such as quantum physics or Darwinian evolution), business principles, philosophy, mystical pursuits, extra-biblical dreams and visions (How can we know which ones are true?) or any other thing they see as "truth" to the scriptures. They add to and thereby alter the scriptures. This is very dangerous because the new mixture is a lie.

Even though they carry the name of Christ, their perversion and/or corruption of the Word, leads to them being in the service of the Father of Lies.

Christians need to jealously guard the Word of God and keep it holy. (Whole and pure, set apart.) This is the only way they won't be deceived.

We can't be snatched away from Jesus, but we can be seduced, beguiled, and lured away from Jesus, just as Eve was seduced into disbelieving God's Word.

This is how I see it . . .

[GodsStudent]

I think the way Christians are deceived is by not being faithful to the Word of God. They add psychology, science (such as quantum physics or Darwinian evolution), business principles, philosophy, mystical pursuits, extra-biblical dreams and visions (How can we know which ones are true?) or any other thing they see as "truth" to the scriptures. They add to and thereby alter the scriptures. This is very dangerous because the new mixture is a lie.

Even though they carry the name of Christ, their perversion and/or corruption of the Word, leads to them being in the service of the Father of Lies.

Christians need to jealously guard the Word of God and keep it holy. (Whole and pure, set apart.) This is the only way they won't be deceived.

We can't be snatched away from Jesus, but we can be seduced, beguiled, and lured away from Jesus, just as Eve was seduced into disbelieving God's Word.

This is how I see it . . .

I like the post!

[daffodyllady]

I think the way Christians are deceived is by not being faithful to the Word of God. They add...extra-biblical dreams and visions (How can we know which ones are true?). . .

I agree with most of your post... however, this one point I disagree with.

Just as in the Old Testament, we should not seek after a "fortune teller" experience, even so today, we need to be careful not to follow the "dreams and visions" we might experience.

HOWEVER.
God promised that those who receive the Holy Spirit would receive dreams and visions. How can we know which ones are true? The same way the early church knew which ones were true.

Jesus has to be front and center.
Not a pet theology.
Not a pet doctrine.
Not a favorite teacher.
Not even the thrill of receiving supernatural guidance.

If we are more in love with thrills and chills, than with Jesus, we can be led astray.
If we are more focused on our theological explanations of Scripture, than with Jesus, we are probably already led astray.
If we have a pet doctrinal hobby-horse, we are definitely off-balance already.
And if we think a certain Bible teacher (whether past or present) is 100% spot-on
with every teaching he puts out, we are ripe for deception.

We have to know the Author of the Scriptures, instead of just the Scriptures, so we can know what He would say, and what He would not say. It's about that personal relationship.

And yes, God still does give dreams and visions. Some of us tend to be more gifted in these things than others. And that doesn't make anyone any better than anyone else.

It's just a function within the body. Just because the foot cannot see, doesn't make him worth any less than the eyeball. And just because an eye can see dreams and visions, doesn't make him not need the foot. An eye can see the road ahead, but depends on the foot to help get it where it sees to go. And the foot cannot see ahead, but depends on the eye to tell it where to go.

And as long as the eyeball doesn't get puffed up, and remains a servant, its eyesight is trustworthy.

[ladilesper]

My view on this is that Christians can be led by the Spirit in their personal lives, like Paul when he received the Macedonian call. Many Christians throughout history received supernatural guidance from the Lord. Missionaries and pastors speak often of receiving a "call" from God. Sometimes this can happen through a dream or a vision.

But, Christians cross the line when they share dreams and visions that create new doctrine or announce a doctrine that is contrary to the settled, complete, and finished Word of God.

For example, I think Rick Joyner did this in his book, The Final Quest.

[Ready1]

In response to the OP, I would offer these and answer the question, Yes.

1Co 6:9 Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: Evil company doth corrupt good manners.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Jas 1:16 Be not deceived, my beloved brethren.

[daffodyllady]

Good post, Ready1.
And may I add the following:

Luke 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Hebrews 3:12,13 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Colossians 2:6-8 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Ephesians 4:14 ...henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Ephesians 4:22 ...put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

[ladilesper]

Why didn't Jesus want his followers to be deceived?

[daffodyllady]

How about you answer your own question?
I don't understand how this is a valid question.

[ladilesper]

I ask because there must be a consequence for being deceived. Why did Jesus warn his followers not to be deceived if there were no consequences for it? What is the consequence for being deceived?

I think this is a valid question.

I'm not sure I have the answer.

Are those people who are deceived now in a state of apostasy? Have they departed from the faith? Can a person lose their salvation if they're deceived?

It was Jesus' greatest/first concern for the last days. Why?

[GodsStudent]

I believe the deception will be most forthcoming when the antichrist is revealed, and many who profess Christ (with a basic knowledge and not a personal relationship), will follow after the antichrist. Most churches today preach the whole world will be witnessed to and then Christ will return. We know this is not scriptural, but the scriptures say "My people perish for lack of knowledge."

I find it very hard to believe that those of us searching the scripture, following along, will be among those deceived. Different people define "deceived" in different ways. Someone may attach that as a label to another who isn't in agreement with them on particulars in scripture, such as where the antichrist will hail from, or rapture timing, etc. Implications are made all the time here, and it's downright hurtful, frankly. I would term that "mistaken" more than "deceived" and as long as we are following along, and giving it our all, I believe the Lord will keep us straight. (I mean, we're praying not to be deceived, most of us).......

Anyway, not knowing how it all works and everything scripture says about every element of how the last days will play out, who is who in Daniel, etc., etc., is a far cry from accepting the anti Christ, or not knowing who he is when he shows up.....

[daffodyllady]

This really does boil down to the question of "once saved, always saved"?
If you believe one can lose their salvation, then, yes, there are disastrous consequences from allowing yourself to be deceived. It's a question of eternal hellfire!

But if you are as most in here, that they believe one cannot leave the Lord once one has truly been born again... well then, the consequences are of minor importance. Because in the Calvinist theology, deception (if possible) really makes no difference as far as the eternal resting place of a once-saved person. They would say deception (if possible) of a truly born again soul would only affect his rewards... which, when compared to hellfire, really is of not much consequence at all.

Thus, such theology soothes the convicted soul, assuring them on the basis of long-ago-uttered words, that their soul is forever safe from eternal consequence, no matter how the life may be lived afterwards.

As you can see, I don't agree with the second stance. I think such a stance discards too much scripture. But of course, this thread will now dissolve into the everlasting debate between the Calvinists and the Non-Calvinists.

From which I shall abstain, based on this scripture:

2 Timothy 2:23-25 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth...

[Loop]

Totally agree with you daf...

[mark s]

I ask because there must be a consequence for being deceived. Why did Jesus warn his followers not to be deceived if there were no consequences for it? What is the consequence for being deceived?

I think this is a valid question.

I'm not sure I have the answer.

Are those people who are deceived now in a state of apostasy? Have they departed from the faith? Can a person lose their salvation if they're deceived?

It was Jesus' greatest/first concern for the last days. Why?

Hi ladilesper,

I think this is a completely valid question.

What was the deception that Jesus warned against? The places I'm thinking of are where He warned them to not be deceived because imposters would come in the last days. In that instance, the consequence of being deceived would be following a false messiah, and risk being led into beast worship.

Daffodyllady has also mentioned some Scriptures that give the consequences of deception.

Deceitfulness of sin can harden a man's heart.

You can become "spoiled" if deceived by the traditions of men, that is, led to follow them instead of Christ.

You can be deceived by riches, and not be fruitful in your life.

You can be tossed from one doctrine to the next, not being grounded in the word.

And of course the original consequence of deception, the old man, the man we used to be, was originally corrupted by sin's deception.

So to explore your question a bit, what is the deception you have in mind? There is the deception that sin is OK. There is the deception that riches are to be sought after. There is the deception of people teaching you things that are wrong. There is the deception of a false messiah. There are other deceptions as well.

Can you clarify for me the deception or deceptions you are thinking of?

The reason I ask, well, one example, would be, for instance, doctrine. Some are deceived by false teachers that working miracles such as healings and raising from the dead are an ordinary part of the true Christian's daily life. Now, they've trusted in Jesus for forgiveness of sins, and are relying on God's Spirit daily, and their life has been changed. But they happen to think of them self as a "second class Christian", because they aren't raising people from the dead. This person is deceived. Are they apostate? Have they become "un-born again"?

I raise this example to demonstrate that there are different types and degrees of deception.

So let's say we are talking about a truly born again Christian, who has been deceived in some way. What types of deception, and to what degree of being deceived, would cause them to become spiritually dead again? Or would it?

To your last question, Jesus' concern for the last days, I think this was because Jesus knew many deceivers would come, and that His brothers would be anxiously looking for their messiah to appear. He knew false ones would appear, even working miracles, so the deception would be strong, but that it would lead to worshiping the beast if not averted.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[BeTheMoon]

Strong delusion can be from God (2 Thess 2:11) just as a debased mind can be from God (Rom 1:28). The Word of God is not a literary book, it is alive (Heb 4:12), and we must yield.

[daffodyllady]

And isn't that fascinating?
It is important to realize that God sends that strong delusion only to those who once had an opportunity to love truth, but who chose instead to love unrighteousness.

2Th 2:10 ... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

So, it's not just God's arbitrary choice (though of course, as God, He is certainly able to make arbitrary choices!) to appoint some to wrath, and others to destruction. He fits some for destruction... but they do have a choice, just as Pharaoh first hardened his own heart, before God began to harden it further.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Note again: They didn't want to RETAIN God in their knowledge!
So, at one time, they knew God.

[GodsStudent]

Where is the peace that should come with salvation, if born again believers who live in the Word every day are in fear of being deceived? I trust the Lord. I worry that a lot of this "man made" warning comes from human beings, just like me, who don't necessarily agree with me on various points. (not saying BTM is doing this, I am saying it seems to me that I get a lot of this "warning" on a regular basis, in various threads, where I see things one way and another sees it differently). That, imo, is manipulation and fear mongering, using the scriptures.

I, of course, am thinking right now about the blood moons and Lord's Feasts, and the lining up of Jewish (old testament) events with today's timing. While I don't have it all settled in my mind, I am certain that the Lord could be speaking to the Jewish people of this day with these signs in His universe. I am settling down about this in my own mind, as in I am feeling more like I need to understand the Feasts and these traditions of the Jewish people, but not so much that I need to follow them in this day and time. They are "signs" of the time, just as they were signs in the past. It's not that far fetched to me that they are happening......but we are taking the book of Kahn, which is a fiction work, and imo, throwing the baby out with the bath water....and even further, shutting down the potential for the conversation with warnings such as this. Watchers will explore in a healthy environment, and I don't have to "hang my reputation" on my exploration, nor will I let anyone put me into a box marked "toss out" because I do. If we had to be right, then all those ENP1 people from a few years back would be in that box right now. Further, many haven't let that go to this day (and Im not saying its not for good reason, this still may be the covenant with many).....but right now, it hasn't panned out.

If this year and the next don't show great change, even coinciding with the blood moons, super moon and feasts, then we can say this was probably not of any relevance, but it certainly bears watching in my own mind, as these are the Lord's feasts, these are blood moons in His universe, and these are Jewish people events....pretty significant when you consider the end time contains a whole lot about the Jewish people and Israel itself....as it won't happen without them coming to Christ....that's a significant part of what is happening. So, I don't get all the scoffing. Scoffing about the messenger....(one of them, as we have a few others who "confirm" along with him)....how the messenger delivered his materials (speaking of Kahn)....I get it....but throwing the whole subject out as taboo.....blows my mind.

There are many "politicized" churches out there. Seeker friendly, preterist.....problems ten fold, because they have a lack of knowledge. These "Christians" wouldn't have a clue what I am talking about here and now, and even worse, don't have a clue what's happening in the world right now. Worse still, even though there is a great fuss going on out there, in both the secular and Christian community, as in everyone wants to know what in the world is going on with the world, they aren't picking up their bibles, they aren't plagued with concern to know, and they scoff the very instant someone suggests they must stop their "best life now" to get a handle on what it all means. These are the Christians who are deceived. They don't love the Lord enough get to know Him. They love their own idea of who He is, and if He doesn't fit into their mold, well then, they won't stretch themselves to learn where the error is in their thinking. This is a type of "Sadducee" ( I love to call them "sad you see")....

[mark s]

Hi GodsStudent,

You raise a great point.

There is a lot of fear out there, so many kinds. Perfect love casts out fear.

If we keep ourselves in the love of God, we can live without fear.

In Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

Hello GodsStudent,

You seem to be concerned about a couple issues in your post. Forgive me if I'm reading into it something that's not there, but I hear questions about how/if/why Christians can be deceived.

I can't know everything about you, of course, but from what I see over the years is various discussions here, I feel certain your love for the Lord and truth will keep you from deception. Your heart is in the right place imho.

I think we can find peace and be sure of our salvation and strong in our faith when as Isaiah says, "Isa 26:3 "The steadfast of mind You will keep in perfect peace, Because he trusts in You." Jesus is the center of our walk and if we keep our eyes on Him who is the "Way, Truth, and Life" we can rest.

Those who focus on people, rules, buildings, regulations, systems, books, etc. are in danger of taking their eyes off the One who sustains us. It's not wrong (in fact it's healthy) to search, analyze, speculate, etc. because those are the things that led many of us to come to Christ after all. And it's perfectly normal for people to see things differently and that's healthy as well. We speak from our different backgrounds and experiences.

Hope that helps....

ETA: One area we need caution is where scripture is twisted or taken out of context to arrive at a faulty conclusion. That happens quite often because some agendas are so powerful that it becomes a "no holds barred" effort to prove it. Not everyone's motives are pure so the end justifies the means for them.

[Mrs. B]

Can Christians Be Deceived?

Yes.....that is why we must Know the Living Word...
Jesus said...Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free.
Because He has given us His Word and His Holy Spirit to lead us and to guide us into all truth....

God's Holy Spirit and His Living Word....Agree
we must seek Truth....Jesus said, I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life

He has given each one of us a measure of His Holy Spirit and if we seek Him...His Spirit will bare witness to our spirit what is truth and what is not.....we must be honest with our selves.....and walk in truth.....even if sometimes we have to walk alone......Jesus is the Only Way.....His Word and His Holy Spirit agres and will bare witness to our spirit what is right and what is wrong.....we must learn to be lead by His Holy Spirit..

Some times I call it a gut feeling.....some how you know that you know that you know when it is God and when it is not...amen...The word and the Holy Spirit agree and bares witness to you....

Mrs. B

[ladilesper]

I think the greatest danger is when a person is deceived to the point of betraying God. I'm not sure if there is grace for unfaithfulness (unless the unfaithful person repents).

Lucifer was unfaithful and led a coup against God. He never repented. Eve betrayed God when she was seduced by the serpent and lured into disbelieving the Word of God. (I'm not sure if she repented.) The ancient Israelites betrayed God when they worshiped a golden calf in the wilderness. Many of them were destroyed. Israel betrayed God when they chose to add Baal worship to their worship of God. They were sent into exile and only a remnant remained. All of the Old Testament prophets cried out against Israel's unfaithfulness. They often killed the prophets rather than repent.

How much grace should a married person have for an unfaithful spouse if they don't repent?

I don't believe a person loses their salvation because they fall into sin or they aren't perfect. I also don't believe that a person who loves the Word and is trying to rightly divide it and keep it holy and pure is in danger of losing their salvation, but I do believe that a person who willfully decides to become a witch, for example, or who refuses to repent of a blatant known sin, such as greed or adultery, is in danger of losing their salvation. Look at the man who was sleeping with his stepmother. He was cast out of the church so his soul might be saved. Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!

We're saved by grace THROUGH faith. We must remain faithful to God! He's coming for a spotless bride, not a harlot.

[BeTheMoon]

GodsStudent, sorry if I came off that way (fear of being deceived). We are to be fearless, but at the same time aware of deception that can and will creep in. When Paul mentions the "beggarly" elements of the law, we know they point to Christ (Rom 10:4, John 5:39), and I only consider them beggarly in light of the preeminence of Christ (Col 1).

Daffodlylady, "retain" is the key IMO. How many times do we see that word in the Proverbs? As a necessity for wisdom and instruction, and also the perils of not retaining instruction.

I'm not an OSAS person, I don't deny OSAS people as being saved, but abiding in Christ is everything (John 15:4). The OSAS mindset guarantees eternity (not healthy IMO), and Paul says to the Gentiles to not be haughty but have fear because we do not support the root but rather the opposite, the root supports us (Rom 11:17-23).

Just my $.02. ;-)

[GodsStudent]

BTM: I love your post and have to agree...the OSAS is a curious thing, and I sometimes contemplate the matter, because I see all these "Saved" people who have literally no relationship with Christ. They do the right things (go to church, tithe, try to live a good life)....but that is not what salvation is really about. Are they saved? I cannot judge...but I can easily see that their walk with the Lord is not as fulfilling and meaningful....they walk with others in their church, and I dare say, their focus is on the social, almost, functioning of the church...all the other people, the activities, their responsibilities......they have no rest and they do not speak of Christ moving in their life, they speak almost always of their church "stuff."

Scripture tells us we must see fruit. This fruit is what I am seeing in my life and why I have assurances. I am nowhere near where some others are in my own walk with the Lord. I got a late(r) start....but I see fruit, and I rest in assurance that I am walking with the Lord. I get down on myself, sometimes, and while it happens less now, I have been known to beat myself up with legalism and works....I think alot do...but I have really been focusing for the past year or so on resting in the Lord....reminding myself of my daily efforts to maintain my relationship (listening to sermons, growing in Christ and prayer and doing the things I am told to do in scripture, like trust in the Lord, have faith)....and I see fruit...praise the Lord. I'm not a perfect person, but I am a perfect Work of Christ, just as I am.....today.

Abiding really turned my life around about last year when I posted a sermon on who I thought was my very favorite pastor, because he had so much self control and he really preached something along the lines that if you truly loved the Lord you would be "as well behaved" as he was, and for people like me, who had a lot of issues, I really beat myself up a lot as I had parents who never thought I measured up, and this preacher was doing the same thing to me....making me work myself to death trying to measure up to "prove my love for the Lord" just like I lived a life of trying to "prove my love for my parents" by being ms. perfect. Keeping Alert similarly posted threads on God's relationship with us around the same time that really made all the difference in living at peace in my walk with the Lord.

Nothing has changed about how much I love the Lord, only the burdens are lifted to "prove it" and I rest in His promises now and do not live in fear. This is the perfect love that Mark describes. I love the Lord and I trust and believe He loves me....and my heart does desire a relationship. I just don't live in fear that I am going to all of a sudden have this change in dynamics.....we have an ongoing relationship....me and the Lord.....that's why I don't fear being deceived....and if you have with the Lord a personal relationship where you rest in Him, abide in Him, and trust/have faith...and most of all, stay connected thru prayer, keeping Him close in your mind and to your heart....you will be alright.....

you will also see fruit. I am living it!

[GodsStudent]

PS: Such GREAT posts from our Mods, as usual. I adore this fellowship.
Great insights and responses.
I am not mad at anyone, either. I just speak exactly what I think, sometimes......
and maybe it doesn't always look like I am not on a high horse, lol.

[BeTheMoon]

Who is like our God?