Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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2 Sam. 12:13-14 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
WilliamL wrote:Consider this passage, regarding David's sin with Bathsheba:2 Sam. 12:13-14 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die. Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
So, after David repented and was forgiven, there was yet a material consequence to result from his sin. Not a spiritual consequence, but a physical one. God could not allow a bastard to become king of Israel, so the child had to die.
Some effects begun in the material world, as a result of sins, are as inexorable as gravity. Even when the sins have been forgiven. The ill effects of divorce upon children come to mind, even though the parents have later repented.
keithareilly wrote:I see in these verses the best example of how God can be merciful, just, and vengeful all at the very same time.
Saul persecuted and killed Christians.
1) Mercy: Saul receives mercy and believes in Christ; ( I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy)
2) Justice: Saul is made to suffer much, even stoning and left for dead,
3) Vengeance: The suffering life Saul led as a Christian was an act of vengenace for those and their families whom he persecuted and killed.
Any thoughts?
1 Chronicles 3:5: - These were born to him in Jerusalem: Shim'e-a, Shobab, Nathan and Solomon, four by Bath-shu'a, the daughter of Am'mi-el;
Abiding in His Word wrote:It's true that sin often has ill effects, but in the example you mentioned, they are natural effects. In other words, they are not necessarily imposed by God, but the natural results of reaping what is sown. Every sin has some effect on others unless it's committed in secret. Lies, cheating, anger, adultery, pride, greed, stealing, etc. all likely involve others. But again, David's sin of adultery and murder was personally punished by God Himself.
Abiding said ...
Again, Keith, God doesn't take out His vengeance or wrath on believers or else we nullify the work of the cross.
keithareilly wrote:God is Merciful.
God is Just.
God is Vengeful (it is His to repay, not ours).
God is also faithful, trustworthy, and true.
Therefore, I expect him to be Merciful, Just, Vengeful, Faithful, Trustworthy, and True; never compromising any of these
1) Mercy: Saul receives mercy and believes in Christ; ( I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy)
2) Justice: Saul is made to suffer much, even stoning and left for dead,
3) Vengeance: The suffering life Saul led as a Christian was an act of vengenace for those and their families whom he persecuted and killed.
Abiding said ...
So for my clarification, do you believe God imposed justice and vengeance on Paul in the form of suffering, stoning, and being left for dead because he persecuted and murdered Christians?
Jay Ross wrote:...God challenged David through the prophet around 8 years after he committed adultery with Bathsheba after King David had forgotten that he had sinned before God by his God like Acts and had not repented.
Where do I glean the information that around 8 years had passed between the sin deeds and the call to repentance?
It can be determined here: -1 Chronicles 3:5: - These were born to him in Jerusalem: Shim'e-a, Shobab, Nathan and Solomon, four by Bath-shu'a, the daughter of Am'mi-el;
Solomon was the fourth son of David's by Bathsheba and he was begot when David went into Bathsheba to comfort her after the Lord had taken Shim'e-a the son conceived during their adultery before David had brought her into his house and married her.
God had allowed this approximate 8 year time of Grace for King David to repent of His sin...
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts...
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me...
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
keithareilly wrote:Abiding said ...
So for my clarification, do you believe God imposed justice and vengeance on Paul in the form of suffering, stoning, and being left for dead because he persecuted and murdered Christians?
No, the verse is clear, God did this for His own name's sake. Says so right in the verse.
Which is also to say it was (or synonymous with) Just, Vengeful, and Merciful.
Keith
Here, vengeance is what happens when God judges the world. God is not talking about the redeemed, but about the world.Romans 3:5,6 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
2Thessalonians 1:7-9 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
keithareilly wrote:Daffodyllady,
I am not sure if your post is agreeing or disagreeing with what I posted. So let me clarify.
As I said, God caused Paul to suffer for God's name sake, just as the verse says. For Example:
1) God caused Paul to suffer, lest people accused God of being unjust (Justice, For His name's sake),
2) God caused Paul to suffer, lest people execute vengeance themselves, (Vengeance, For His name's sake).
God demonstrates, Mercy, Justice, and leaves men without excuse to execute vengeance.
And He does this without compromising any one of them.
He is protecting His name just as the verse says.
Keith
I would be happy to hear your understanding of verse 16.
Acts 9:16
For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”
Do you think our God, who willingly planned and killed his only begotten son, would not actively bring about suffering upon of us, even as we believe and trust him as Christ did, for the purpose of his name?
I think only for the unsaved.Hebrews 10:31Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
Jeremiah 29
4 “Here is what Adonai-Tzva’ot, the God of Isra’el, says to all those in exile, whom I have caused to be carried off captive from Yerushalayim to Bavel: ................ 11 For I know what plans I have in mind for you,’ says Adonai,‘plans for well-being, not for bad things; so that you can have hope and a future.
keithareilly wrote:Sometimes We forget Philippians 2:12 "... Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling".
I appreciate what I said is not modern; but, it is true.
Peter was so comfortable with Jesus that he actually began to rebuke him (Mathew 16:22).
I think we should remember not to get that comfortable.
"For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”
WilliamL wrote:4) And the demons. Sins of blood, particularly, create dark places in the soul into which demons can infiltrate, and harass even believers.
"...a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me..."
keithareilly wrote:
Consequently, God does not take pleasure in all his actions.
Malice is desire to harm, it is heart felt . A decision to harm can be without malice, from the head, not the heart.
Keith
mark s wrote:WilliamL wrote: 4) And the demons. Sins of blood, particularly, create dark places in the soul into which demons can infiltrate, and harass even believers.
Hi William, Where does this idea come from?
"...a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me..."
Since this thorn was never defined or explained, how is it evidence of your previous statement?
I find one other place where this metaphor is used, and that being if the Israelites allowed any of the nations in the land to remain, they would be thorns to them. So if we use Scripture to interpret Scripture, doesn't it make better sense that this "thorn in the flesh" would be the Jews who followed Paul around, harassing him at every turn?
(MKJV) Ro 8:32 Truly He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
(ISV) Is:53:10 Yet the LORD was willing to crush him, and he made him suffer. Although you make his soul an offering for sin, He will see his offspring, and he will prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will triumph in his hand.
(MKJV) Heb 5:8 though being a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
(ESV) Heb 8:12 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
keithareilly wrote:Interesting that no one answered the questions I posed earlier.
Most Christians have no problems with God chastising us.
Yet, chastise is just another word for punish.
It carries different connotations; but, like vengenace, it is a punishment.
No problem with being punished if we call it "chastise"; but, a serious problem if we call punishement "vengeance".
Interesting.
Keith
keithareilly wrote:I find it curious that Christians refuse to accept that his punishment, even when meant for our edification, is also vengeance for the wrong we have done others. For some reason, there seems to be an obstacle to accepting that truth.
It is acceptable to be chastised, it is acceptable for God to take vengeance on our behalf, yet, it does not seem to be acceptable for God to avenge others when we have wronged them.
Keith
He does not see only my picture, but the whole album, and how it all relates to the whole.
keithareilly wrote:Interesting that no one answered the questions I posed earlier.
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