Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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Mat 24:15 When therefore ye shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever readeth, let him understand,)
Mat 24:16 Then let them who are in Judea flee to the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the house-top not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes.
I have often wondered about the time frame when the temple will be built. My question is this. Does the temple have to be built prior to the beginning of the final seven years?
1whowaits wrote:
After Jesus, the 'Branch', returns it does appear that He rebuilds the 4th temple as Zech 6 describes.
1whowaits wrote:So the scripture must directly state something before it is true? There must be 2 witnesses? Show me 2 OT prophetic scriptures that directly state that Jesus will come twice. They must be there, Jesus stated that the Jews should have known the hour of their visitation, so it must be in the OT scripture. If then it is not stated directly in OT scripture that Jesus will come twice, does that mean it did not or will not happen?
1whowaits wrote:And in 2 Thess 2, if God's temple is the heavenly sanctuary, the AC is able to eject God from His temple and then set himself up as god? How does the AC get into the heavenly sanctuary? How is it that he makes it through all the angels and sets himself over God in God's heavenly temple/sanctuary?
1whowaits wrote:Rev 11 describes what is a literal, physical temple with worshippers in it prior to Jesus' return.
1whowaits wrote:I find it interesting that after the scripture repeatedly describes a sanctuary, holy place, and temple and gives it physical characteristics, that some try to find any explanation other than the most obvious, that a literal, physical temple will be rebuilt, and the AC will defile it and set himself up as god in it.
1whowaits wrote:So when one uses the term 'heavenly sanctuary', one is referring to God's temple, not the spirit world in general. And it is clear that Rev 11 and 2 Thess 2 are not describing God's temple in heaven, as i attempted to demonstrate previously through a logical argument, it is a literal, physical temple on earth.
1whowaits wrote:ST, actually, while we are all collectively part of the body of Christ, we are each individually a temple of the Holy Spirit, God dwells within us- 'don't you know that you are God's temple, and that God's spirit lives in You?' 1 Cor 3. So there is 1 body of Christ but multiple temples, it is the indwelling that makes us a temple.
1whowaits wrote:So it would appear that in 2 Thess 2, if the AC were among those indwelt by the Holy Spirit, he would be among God's temples, which is not what the passage indicates.
1whowaits wrote:Rev 11 describes a literal, physical temple
1whowaits wrote: Daniel 9 can be interpreted as referring to a temple which is defiled
1whowaits wrote:Daniel 8 describes a sanctuary that is literally taken over
1whowaits wrote:Daniel 11 refers to a temple that is defiled and taken over.
1whowaits wrote:The weight of scriptural evidence would point to a literal, physical temple being rebuilt (as it does not currently exist) which is then desecrated and taken over in the middle of a 7 year period, which means we have a long, hard trib in front of us, imo. I would agree that we will soon find out which way this will go.
1whowaits wrote:And Rev 11 states that the temple is to be measured and the worshippers to be counted, not measured, the worshippers are separate and described as such. Therefore the temple in Rev cannot be 'spiritualized', it is a literal, physical temple that can be measured literally, with worshippers in it who can be counted as individuals.
1whowaits wrote:Therefore the temple in Rev cannot be 'spiritualized', it is a literal, physical temple that can be measured literally, with worshippers in it who can be counted as individuals.
mark s wrote:There were various sorts of sacrifices, not all for atonement of sin.
1whowaits wrote:wkc, i would agree that just because the Jewish people rebuild the temple it is not necessarily true that God will be pleased with what they build, or that He will send the Shekinah glory to the temple. From Ezek 43 and Rev 11 it appears that God instructs the temple mount to be holy, which is not the case in Rev 11, the outer court is given to the geentiles which would be in violation of the law of the temple. On that basis alone the temple would be unacceptable to God and He would not be part of it, which would then allow someone else to take it over.
The temple is a building constructed to honor God and focus worship on Him. God laid out the plans for the temple personally, and it appears that His purpose is to focus worship, on Himself and on His Son, primarily when Jesus returns and sets up the temple Himself as described in Zech 6.
God desires His temple to be rebuilt, but He also desires the worship to be focused on His Son, and the 2 only come together after Jesus returns. But that does not mean the Jewish people won't make an attempt to rebuild the temple and ultimately fail in pleasing God. They still don't understand that the Atonement for sin has been made once for all in Christ, but soon they will.
1whowaits wrote:The temple is a building constructed to honor God and focus worship on Him. God laid out the plans for the temple personally, and it appears that His purpose is to focus worship, on Himself and on His Son, primarily when Jesus returns and sets up the temple Himself as described in Zech 6.
1whowaits wrote: If that were the case then why build churches and cathedrals, would that not be wrong?
1whowaits wrote:from which He (Jesus) will judge between the nations, during the millennium.
1whowaits wrote: It appears that during the millenium Jesus will rule from the temple mount, in God's house, aka the temple, in Jerusalem.
1whowaits wrote:And from the context and description, the future temple described in Rev 11 and 2 Thess 2 is a literal, physical temple, not a group of christian bodies.
wkc wrote:So ....ST...you are saying that you don't believe there will be a temple constructed before Christ returns?
wkc wrote:ST....my position is in agreement with yours for the most part and as you said, we shall soon see.
1whowaits wrote:Isa 2 describes 'the house of the God of Jacob' on the mountain of the Lord, the mountain of the Lord's temple, from which He (Jesus) will judge between the nations, during the millennium. It appears that during the millenium Jesus will rule from the temple mount, in God's house, aka the temple, in Jerusalem.
shorttribber wrote:mark s wrote:There were various sorts of sacrifices, not all for atonement of sin.
What do you feel about one that Is described as Atonement for Sin in Ezekiel ?
mark s wrote:shorttribber wrote:mark s wrote:There were various sorts of sacrifices, not all for atonement of sin.
What do you feel about one that Is described as Atonement for Sin in Ezekiel ?
I think that the temple commanded in Ezekiel was to be built by the captives returned from Babylon. I think it's in chapter 43 that it says this. They did not return and build it, and therefore remained in disobedience, incurring the 7-times over punishment, leading to their not having national sovereignty until 1948.
It would have been a place where the sin offering was given until Jesus died.
Love in Christ,
Mark
mark s wrote: Where is the rule that there cannot be both a living temple and a physical temple?
shorttribber wrote:
Then your position would be that the Ezekiel temple is not the millennial temple that so many expect? Am I understanding that portion correctly?
While the man was standing beside me, I heard one speaking to me out of the temple, and he said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the people of Israel forever. And the house of Israel shall no more defile my holy name, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoring and by the dead bodies of their kings at their high places, by setting their threshold by my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them. They have defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed, so I have consumed them in my anger. Now let them put away their whoring and the dead bodies of their kings far from me, and I will dwell in their midst forever.
“As for you, son of man, describe to the house of Israel the temple, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and they shall measure the plan. And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple, its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, that is, its whole design; and make known to them as well all its statutes and its whole design and all its laws, and write it down in their sight, so that they may observe all its laws and all its statutes and carry them out.
(Ezekiel 43:6-11 ESV)
WilliamL wrote:Mark sez, "Do you see my point?"
Loud and clear. And I agree. Except. In Revelation, the darn narrative from chapters 4-19 keeps bouncing back and forth between the heavenly and the earthly -- 7 bounces, according to one author I read -- which does leave open to debate which part is symbolic, and which is literal.
Now, take those nasty locusts and horsemen in chapter 9, for example: they are "upon the earth." I take them to be absolutely literal. Most commentaries, I believe, would disagree, making them out to be John's rather poor attempt to describe modern human military weaponry: Cobra helicopters and the like. What do you say?
As for the "temple"/naos, which is mentioned 16 times in Revelation:
10 of them directly speak of it being "in heaven," or are linked to a near verse that does: 11:19x2; 14:15, 17; 15:5, 6, 8x2; 16:1; 16:17 ;
2 of them refer to it being the Holy One Himself: Rev. 21:22x2 ;
2 more of them, 3:12 and 7:15, also are clearly heavenly, but you can check them out for yourself to decide ;
leaving only the 2 verses of Rev. 11:1, 2, which I'm convinced also refer to the heavenly sanctuary.
NOT A SINGLE VERSE IN REVELATION speaks of "the Temple/naos on earth," or "in Jerusalem/the holy city/etc." Therefore, there is no good reason, I believe, to make an exception for Rev. 11:1-2; especially since 11:19 says "the naos in heaven."
shorttribber wrote:Hi Mark,
What period would you say this applies, the millennium or now.
Is. 56
1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
9 All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest.
10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
12 Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.
mark s wrote:I'd have to go back and read the chapter, which I don't have time for right now, but isn't there a 3rd option? Could this apply to the time of the prophet?As God is calling them towards keeping the Law, I'd be inclined to think it was then.
mark s wrote:Either our interpretations are Scripturally authoritative, or they are not.
mark s wrote: And then I need to see where the Bible defines the symbols. Without these foundations, the interpretation is not Scripturally authoritative.
mark s wrote:Either . . .
A prophecy is meant to be understood in a literal way, in the overt message expressed, such as, "He will sit on His throne", meaning, there is a certain chair that he will sit on,
or . . .
a prophecy is meant to be understood in a symbolic way, in a covert message, understood by interposing alternative meanings for the normal meanings of the words used, such as, "the throne is not a chair, but signifies an established authority, and to sit does not refer to a position of physical repose, but signifies a person's established place in that designated authority.
Something like that.
shorttribber wrote:mark s wrote:I'd have to go back and read the chapter, which I don't have time for right now, but isn't there a 3rd option? Could this apply to the time of the prophet?As God is calling them towards keeping the Law, I'd be inclined to think it was then.
Do you think it interesting that Jesus quoted from this part while reproving the money changers in the temple in Jerusalem?
7. Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
And then Right After That, he says to them that "Your House is Left unto you Desolate".
But " mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."
A house built of Living Stones. Where the Sacrifice of Praise is offered upon an Alter that Carnal Priests can not Participate/Have Communion.
mark s wrote:Either our interpretations are Scripturally authoritative, or they are not.
mark s wrote: And then I need to see where the Bible defines the symbols. Without these foundations, the interpretation is not Scripturally authoritative.
Eph 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath..................... broken down the middle wall............... of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Ezk 43
7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, ....and .......the wall........ between me and them,......................... they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
There is a great deal of Scriptural Authority to Understand the Spirit of these Prophetic Reports.
you may disagree, but this is only a Very Miniscule sampling.
shorttribber wrote:mark s wrote:Either . . .
A prophecy is meant to be understood in a literal way, in the overt message expressed, such as, "He will sit on His throne", meaning, there is a certain chair that he will sit on,
or . . .
a prophecy is meant to be understood in a symbolic way, in a covert message, understood by interposing alternative meanings for the normal meanings of the words used, such as, "the throne is not a chair, but signifies an established authority, and to sit does not refer to a position of physical repose, but signifies a person's established place in that designated authority.
Something like that.
More-less that's true, but not in Every case, there could be a literal and spiritual blending of sorts....such as your position in Math 25, the sheep and goat judgment of nations. It's unavoidable that a blend be understood to arrive at your understanding of the text.
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