All seals have been opened except the 6th

[Sonbeam]

It is with great hesitancy that I open this thread since my view of Revelation is quite distinct from the prevailing views. But here it goes.

My view can be most closely categorized as historicist--in some ways--as well as futuristic. But unlike the classic historicist view that holds that Revelation presents the course of history from the apostles' life through the end of the age, I see the Revelation narrative as spanning the whole history of man starting at the garden.

My view is futuristic in that believe in a post tribulation (man’s wrath on the saints) rapture of the saints at the last trumpet -- Christ’s second coming -- and PRIOR to God’s wrath being poured out on the world.

Historically, I see all the seals, with the exception of the 6th, as having already been opened, with the first 4 seals having a continuing fulfillment as man is plagued in every generation by famine, wars, and pestilences since the garden.

Here’s an outline of the opening of the seals as I see it:

1st seal, White horse: Satan bent on conquest; he was released in the garden; “conquered” man when Adam sinned; Satan continuews to be bent on conquest till the end.

2d seal, Red horse: Peace taken from the earth starting when Cain killed Abel. Gen 4:8 War continuing till the end.

4th seal, Pale green horse: death (started when Cain killed Abel) caused by sword, famine, pestilence, wild beasts, etc. Events continuing till the end.

3rd seal, Black horse: First recorded famine Gen 12:10, Gen 26:1; famine and inflation continuing throughout the world at different times since then.

7th seal: Rev 8:1 Opened with the birth of our Lord. We are in an interlude following His Ascension. Interlude will end when the events of the first trumpet are fulfilled. After that, fulfillment of this seal and its trumpets will continue till the last trumpet is sounded at our Lord's return.

5th seal: Rev 6:9 Opened right after His resurrection when white robes were given to saints who had died prior to the Cross. White robes signify the cleansing from sin Christ obtained on the Cross for all men. This seal is closed.

6th seal: Possibly having its initial opening when anti-Christ is revealed since 6 is man’s number; or definitely opened at Christ’s second coming. Saints will be raptured before bowls of wrath are poured out on the world.

I believe Satan is bound while this is happening and also while nonbelievers are being judged at the great white throne judgement. Afterwards, he is released for the battle of Armageddon.

I do not see a literal millennium happening on this earth. I interpret the millennium to be eternity with the Lord starting right after the saints are gathered to Him.

And I think this will do for now, and I'll duck for cover.

[mark s]

HI Sonbeam,

This is an interesting idea!

My first reaction . . . what are your thoughts on the scroll being given to the lamb after His being slaughtered?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[4givenmuch]

Hmmmmm . . .

[shorttribber]

interesting idea, it seems there could be a layer of fulfillment of that nature possibly

[Jericho]

Hi Sonbeam

Historically, I see all the seals, with the exception of the 6th, as having already been opened, with the first 4 seals having a continuing fulfillment as man is plagued in every generation by famine, wars, and pestilences since the garden.

Interesting twist on things. It's true there has always been war, famine, pestilence, etc. since the fall of man. However I think the thing that will distinguish it during the tribulation will be the intensity. Jesus said "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mat 24:21)" There has always been war throughout history, for example, but world war's are relatively new. And now that we all have nuclear weapons it brings it to a level never before imagined. Likewise with the world so interdependent now there is potential to have famine and pestilence on a scale that has never happened before.

You believe these seals were opened shortly after the fall of Adam correct? What then do you suppose was the reason for opening the seals?

1st seal, White horse: Satan bent on conquest; he was released in the garden; “conquered” man when Adam sinned; Satan continues to be bent on conquest till the end.

Why do you believe the white horse is Satan and not the Anti-Christ who also goes out to conquer till the end? The rider has a bow but no arrows and white is generally symbolic for peace and purity. The picture here is someone who comes in peace but brings war. This would seem to fit the Anti-Christ better than Satan IMO.

I've noticed that you've rearranged the seals out of sequential order. I've seen this sort of re-arranging happen a lot to the book of Revelation and and I don't understand it. If we did this to any other book in the bible it would not make any sense. Imagine if we did this to Genesis and re-arranged the days of creation. It just seems like a convenient way to make things fit ones eschatological views.

There are other issues, but I think Mark S asked the most obvious question. Revelation 5 makes it clear the seals are opened by Christ after he is already crucified and resurrected. In fact that seems to be the main prerequisite to open the seals:

"So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it." (Rev 5:4)

"But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals." (Rev 5:5)

"And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation. (Rev 5:9)"

[Sonbeam]

HI Sonbeam,

This is an interesting idea!

My first reaction . . . what are your thoughts on the scroll being given to the lamb after His being slaughtered?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark!

Yes, the following verses seem to indicate that the seals are opened after the Cross.

5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders

6:1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.

However, Rev 13:8 says the Lamb “was slain from the creation of the world.” And Peter says, Christ was chosen before the creation of the world.”

13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (NIV)

1 Peter 1:20 He but was revealed in these last times for your sake. (NIV).

The way I see it, the visions given to John were given to him by One Who is outside of time and place and Who from His eternal perspective sees man's history and its salvation process as already completed.

Taking this into account, I believe that we can say God set in motion man’s history when He created Adam -- everything that man would experience on this earth until his full redemption at His Second Coming, which would include the "opening" of the seals. In this sense, perhaps this is when the 6th seal was truly “opened” since 6 is man’s number.

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam

Historically, I see all the seals, with the exception of the 6th, as having already been opened, with the first 4 seals having a continuing fulfillment as man is plagued in every generation by famine, wars, and pestilences since the garden.

Interesting twist on things. It's true there has always been war, famine, pestilence, etc. since the fall of man. However I think the thing that will distinguish it during the tribulation will be the intensity. Jesus said "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mat 24:21)" There has always been war throughout history, for example, but world war's are relatively new. And now that we all have nuclear weapons it brings it to a level never before imagined. Likewise with the world so interdependent now there is potential to have famine and pestilence on a scale that has never happened before.

Hi Jericho!

Yes, I agree there's always been war, famine, etc., and that is why I see the three seals that signal those things happening as being opened right after the fall and the first seal being opened before the fall when Satan was released to tempt Adam.

And I agree with you that during the great tribulation--since man has suffered tribulation since he left the garden--wars, famine, etc., along with man's wickedness, will definitely intensify.

Jericho: You believe these seals were opened shortly after the fall of Adam correct? What then do you suppose was the reason for opening the seals?

Perhaps my answer to Mark answers your question Jericho. And I'll respond to the rest of your comments next.

[mark s]

However, Rev 13:8 says the Lamb “was slain from the creation of the world.” And Peter says, Christ was chosen before the creation of the world.”

13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (NIV)

Hi Sonbeam,

I would have to disagree about the interpretation of this verse. Grammatically, the clause "from the creation of the world" can go with either "the lamb that was slain" or "whose names do not remain written in the book of life". To determine which, we look at the sister passage:

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. (Revelation 17:8, ESV)

I think the thing being said here is that there are some whose names have not remained in the book of life from the foundation of the world, and those are the ones who will worship the beast.

Verse 13:8 adds that it's the slain Lamb's book.

The next day Moses said to the people, “You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” So Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold. But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.” But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book. (Exodus 32:30-33, ESV)

This tells us that God blots from His book the one who sins.

So those whose sins are imputed to them - those who have not been justified - do not remain written in the book.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Ready1]

All seals have been opened except the 6th

1st seal, White horse: Satan bent on conquest; he was released in the garden; “conquered” man when Adam sinned; Satan continuews to be bent on conquest till the end.

2d seal, Red horse: Peace taken from the earth starting when Cain killed Abel. Gen 4:8 War continuing till the end.

4th seal, Pale green horse: death (started when Cain killed Abel) caused by sword, famine, pestilence, wild beasts, etc. Events continuing till the end.

3rd seal, Black horse: First recorded famine Gen 12:10, Gen 26:1; famine and inflation continuing throughout the world at different times since then.

7th seal: Rev 8:1 Opened with the birth of our Lord. We are in an interlude following His Ascension. Interlude will end when the events of the first trumpet are fulfilled. After that, fulfillment of this seal and its trumpets will continue till the last trumpet is sounded at our Lord's return.

5th seal: Rev 6:9 Opened right after His resurrection when white robes were given to saints who had died prior to the Cross. White robes signifies the cleansing from sin Christ obtained on the Cross for all men. This seal is closed.

6th seal: Possibly having its initial opening when anti-Christ is revealed since 6 is man’s number; or definitely opened at Christ’s second coming. Saints will be raptured before bowls of wrath are poured out on the world.

Two Points:

Point 1: While these are interesting thoughts, it seems to me that you have neglected one small phrase in Revelation 4 which modifies everything in the book which follows.

Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door was opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what must occur after these things.

Point 2: My God can count, and 1,2,4,3,7,5,6 is poor counting. Three comes before four, five and six come before seven and seven comes after six.

[Sonbeam]

However, Rev 13:8 says the Lamb “was slain from the creation of the world.” And Peter says, Christ was chosen before the creation of the world.”

13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. (NIV)

Hi Sonbeam,

I would have to disagree about the interpretation of this verse. Grammatically, the clause "from the creation of the world" can go with either "the lamb that was slain" or "whose names do not remain written in the book of life". To determine which, we look at the sister passage:

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come. (Revelation 17:8, ESV)

I think the thing being said here is that there are some whose names have not remained in the book of life from the foundation of the world, and those are the ones who will worship the beast.

The fact that the same clause “from the creation of the world” is used in both Rev 13:8 and Rev 17:8 does not mean that it has to be a qualifier in both verses only for those “whose names have not been written in the book of life.”

Qualifying clauses are normally placed as close as possible to the words which they modify.
The clause in Rev 13:8 qualifies “the lamb” since it follows immediately after that and the Greek lexicon appears to me(since I’m definitely not a Greek scholar ) to show it written in that order.

For this clause to be describing unbelievers in Rev 13:8, it would have to read thus: "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written [from the creation of the world ]in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain." And it does not appear to be written that way in the Greek.

But beyond that, while Rev 17:8 says nonbelievers names “have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world," Eph 1:4 says the saints were chosen "before the creation of the world," and 2 Tim 1:9 says "grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time. "

This tells me that in God’s eternal realm, He saw the Cross already consummated and the Lamb slain before the creation of the world. This to be revealed to us in our time as 1 Pet 1:20 says:

20: He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. NIV

[Sonbeam]

Yes, ready1, I'm very much aware that I do not show the seals being opened in sequential order.

[mark s]

For this clause to be describing unbelievers in Rev 13:8, it would have to read thus: All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written [from the creation of the world ]in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain. And it does not appear to be written that way in the Greek.

Hi Sonbeam,

Again I have to disagree. It wouldn't actually "have to read" that way.

For myself, I look at passages that make definitive statements to interpret passages that make less definitive statements.

Either interpretation is possible for that passage. Check me out on that.

While English relies heavily upon word order to show associations, Greek relies heavily upon syntax (word form). Greek uses word order to show emphasis. Words appearing first are considered more important to what the writer is saying. And as a result, since word order is used for emphasis, syntax comes in to preserve associations.

In this passage, the syntax allows the clauses to be matched either way, rendering the passage less than definitive in how it should be read. But again, we have a parallel passage that clarifies it for us.

Meanwhile, as Hebrews calls Jesus' sacrifice a "once for all", and Paul says that "at the right time" Jesus came, these are indicative of a temporal event, something that occurred in the history of the earth. Under the Old Covenant, the people did not enter heaven, instead remaining in Sheol, because Jesus had not died yet.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi Sonbeam,

I wonder what you think the scroll with seven seals contains? We are told clearly what the seals are, but not so clearly what is in the scroll. What do you say?

RT

[watching]

Hi Sonbeam,

I've only scanned over this thread, but there are a few things that I would like to point out concerning the white horse.

I've mentioned some of these things before, but I think it's worth mentioning again.

First of all, it's important to note that there is nothing negative that is mentioned in relation to the white horse, or the rider of the white horse.

Secondly, I don't know if I agree with the use of the word "conquer" as a translation for the Greek word "nikao."

The word "nikao" in the Greek, simply means to "win" to "prevail" or to "overcome."

In fact, it is used that way in every other instance in the New Testament, aside from Rev. 6:2.

See definition and translation count here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3528&t=KJV

The word conquer, imo, implies the use of force. Whereas, "winning" or "overcoming" does not necessarily involve the use of force.

See definition for conquer here:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conquer

Also, the word "nikao" is used as a participle, in the first part of Rev. 6:2, and in the subjunctive mood, in the second part.

When a word is used as a participle in the Greek, it can either be translated as a verb, i.e. "winning."

Or it could be used as a noun, i.e. "one winning," or "one having won."

See tense description here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=6&v=1&t=KJV#conc/2

It's hard to say which was the original intention.

In any case, here is how I would translate this verse:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth winning/having overcome, and so that he might win/overcome.

Now, it's also important to know that the word "crown" does not refer to a diadem.

It is the Greek word "stephanos," which refers to a victors wreath.

See definition and concordance here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4735&t=KJV

And last, but not least, I wanted to point out, that the word "bow" does not necessarily imply a weapon, or part of a weapon.

A bow can refer to many things.

For example, a bow can refer to a rainbow.

See concordance for the word "bow" here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=bow&t=KJV

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam

Why do you believe the white horse is Satan and not the Anti-Christ who also goes out to conquer till the end? The rider has a bow but no arrows and white is generally symbolic for peace and purity. The picture here is someone who comes in peace but brings war. This would seem to fit the Anti-Christ better than Satan IMO.

I've noticed that you've rearranged the seals out of sequential order. I've seen this sort of re-arranging happen a lot to the book of Revelation and and I don't understand it. If we did this to any other book in the bible it would not make any sense. Imagine if we did this to Genesis and re-arranged the days of creation. It just seems like a convenient way to make things fit ones eschatological views.

Hi Jericho,

Here’s why I believe Satan is the rider of the white horse and why he was released early on in man’s history.

Rev 6:1: I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

While white is generally symbolic of purity, it is the horse that is white and not the rider wearing white clothes. So in this instance I think the white horse portends a victorious conqueror -- if only for a time. The rider was given a crown, a sign of power and authority, and a bow, normally a weapon for waging war, but no arrows, perhaps denoting his power and authority are limited and controlled by the One Who has given him the crown in order to advance His own divine plan.

So who is the rider bent on conquering? Who is he trying to defeat? And how long does the rider remain victorious?

Satan has been trying to usurp God’s place since he was created. It would seem that he would understand the impossibility of trying to place himself above God Who created him, but apparently he doesn’t. When he tempted Adam in the garden, Satan was pitting himself against God not against Adam. (Yes, I know he tempted Eve, but she was just a tool to get to Adam and make Adam disobey God’s Word)

When Adam disobeyed God by listening to Satan (through Eve) rather than to God, God allowed Satan to have his first victory or conquest. Satan won the first round against God … or so he thought.

Therefore, the enmity has always been primarily between God and Satan. If we look at Gen 3:15:

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring [fn] and hers; he will crush [fn] your head, and you will strike his heel. NIV"

we can see that there was no enmity between Satan and man until God decreed that there should be ( specifically between Satan and the saints) only AFTER Satan was instrumental in Adam’s fall. The enmity prior to this was only between Satan and God as I said before.

Satan’s victory on that first round only lasted till Christ came. Though by indwelling Judas and inciting the Jews and Romans to kill Christ, Satan thought that he had another victory over God, we know that in reality, Christ through the Cross gained the final victory. I say final victory because though Satan is still loose on this earth and will continue to be till Christ’s second coming, he has no power and authority over God’s children who already have the victory in Christ.

However, Satan continues his battle against God, and the anti-Christ will be just the puppet he indwells to continue his futile struggle against God.

As for rearranging the sequence of the seals to fit my view of Revelation, it was actually the other way around. When I studied Revelation years ago, I started by trying to fit my understanding of the scriptures to fit the normal sequence of the opening of the seals, and it just didn’t make sense. For one, I couldn’t see and still don’t how God’s wrath, which destroys the earth, happens before God’s judgments (the trumpets) are levied on nonbelievers, who supposedly are still alive after the earth has been consumed by fire. ???

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam,

I've only scanned over this thread, but there are a few things that I would like to point out concerning the white horse.

I've mentioned some of these things before, but I think it's worth mentioning again.

First of all, it's important to note that there is nothing negative that is mentioned in relation to the white horse, or the rider of the white horse.

Secondly, I don't know if I agree with the use of the word "conquer" as a translation for the Greek word "nikao."

The word "nikao" in the Greek, simply means to "win" to "prevail" or to "overcome."

In fact, it is used that way in every other instance in the New Testament, aside from Rev. 6:2.

See definition and translation count here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3528&t=KJV

The word conquer, imo, implies the use of force. Whereas, "winning" or "overcoming" does not necessarily involve the use of force.

See definition for conquer here:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conquer

Also, the word "nikao" is used as a participle, in the first part of Rev. 6:2, and in the subjunctive mood, in the second part.

When a word is used as a participle in the Greek, it can either be translated as a verb, i.e. "winning."

Or it could be used as a noun, i.e. "one winning," or "one having won."

See tense description here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=6&v=1&t=KJV#conc/2

It's hard to say which was the original intention.

In any case, here is how I would translate this verse:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth winning/having overcome, and so that he might win/overcome.

Now, it's also important to know that the word "crown" does not refer to a diadem.

It is the Greek word "stephanos," which refers to a victors wreath.

See definition and concordance here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4735&t=KJV

And last, but not least, I wanted to point out, that the word "bow" does not necessarily imply a weapon, or part of a weapon.

A bow can refer to many things.

For example, a bow can refer to a rainbow.

See concordance for the word "bow" here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=bow&t=KJV

Hi Watching!

Thank you for the clarification on the many different meanings of the Greek words used in Rev 6:2. If you go here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%206:2

you'll notice that most of the English translations render the translation of the verse as the NIV does which is the translation I've been using:

Rev 6:2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

And I agree with you that there is nothing negative that is mentioned in relation to the white horse, or the rider of the white horse. And I believe the reason for that is that it is God Himself who is sending this rider on his mission -- a mission which God has decreed to further His own divine purpose.

[Sonbeam]

For this clause to be describing unbelievers in Rev 13:8, it would have to read thus: All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast -- all whose names have not been written [from the creation of the world ]in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain. And it does not appear to be written that way in the Greek.

Hi Sonbeam,

Again I have to disagree. It wouldn't actually "have to read" that way.

For myself, I look at passages that make definitive statements to interpret passages that make less definitive statements.

Either interpretation is possible for that passage. Check me out on that.

While English relies heavily upon word order to show associations, Greek relies heavily upon syntax (word form). Greek uses word order to show emphasis. Words appearing first are considered more important to what the writer is saying. And as a result, since word order is used for emphasis, syntax comes in to preserve associations.

In this passage, the syntax allows the clauses to be matched either way, rendering the passage less than definitive in how it should be read. But again, we have a parallel passage that clarifies it for us.

Meanwhile, as Hebrews calls Jesus' sacrifice a "once for all", and Paul says that "at the right time" Jesus came, these are indicative of a temporal event, something that occurred in the history of the earth. Under the Old Covenant, the people did not enter heaven, instead remaining in Sheol, because Jesus had not died yet.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark,

I can see that you are very knowledgeable about the Greek language use of words and phrases. As I said before, I am not, and in my studies I rely on and compare different bible translations rendered by those scholars who are well versed in the Greek, Hebrew, etc.

And the Rev 13:8 passage you and I are discussing is translated by most as the NIV does:

http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation%2013:8

And I agree with you on this: "that as Hebrews calls Jesus' sacrifice a "once for all", and Paul says that "at the right time" Jesus came, these are indicative of a temporal event, something that occurred in the history of the earth."

Yes, the Cross had to happen in our time line and be part of the history of man. This is why I have made the distinction to state that from God's eternal perspective events that we experience in the temporal, God could see them as already accomplished as the Rev 13:8 passage and others seem to indicate.

Since I do not have any idea what eternity is actually like and how our God lives outside our time and place and in eternity (and I bet nobody else does either ), I am not willing to dispute that as far as God is concerned events in our history might have already happened.

Under the Old Covenant, the people did not enter heaven, instead remaining in Sheol, because Jesus had not died yet.

Yes I agree with you Mark.

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam,

I wonder what you think the scroll with seven seals contains? We are told clearly what the seals are, but not so clearly what is in the scroll. What do you say?

RT

Good question RT. I haven't really given that much thought. Although since I hold to the historical perspective on Revelation, it could be every single detail of man's history on this earth, or a record of every detail of the history of His saints.



Maybe somebody else has done a study on this and has an answer for you.

[Mr Baldy]

Hi Sonbeam,

I can see that you are getting HIT hard with some resistance to your theory, but I know that it has been all with love.

When you have the time, I'd like to ask you about this statement that you wrote:

I do not see a literal millennium happening on this earth. I interpret the millennium to be eternity with the Lord starting right after the saints are gathered to Him.

As you know, the term "millennium" is not written in Scripture. Since you do not "see a literal millennium happening on this earth" - can you please explain how you see:

Revelation 19:11-16 "The Coming of Christ"

11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12) His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13) He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14) And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15) From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16) And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

The aforementioned shows the "Coming of Christ" to the Earth to establish His Kingdom.

And then this:

Revelation 20:4-10

"4) Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. 7) When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8) and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

If you'll notice in the aforementioned verses of Scripture, we don't have an exact timing of "those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God" or "those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand" - but, we are given the fact that they come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years. "This is the first resurrection".

So, base on the fact that they "come to life" and "this is the first resurrection"; can we assume that this occurs at His coming? Another question to you is that it appears to be quite obvious that at His Coming we are gathered to Him as He Returns, or do you believe that the martyred Saints have a separate timing as being resurrected - although it may still be considered the 1st Resurrection? Nevertheless, how is this still not a "literal thousand year reign with Christ on this earth" - and if not on Earth, where are they at, and where is Christ "coming" to?

Thank you for your response Sonbeam, in advance

[watching]

Hi Sonbeam,

The words "win" "prevail" and "conquer" are basically synonyms.

So, the word "conquer" in Rev. 6:2 could work, based on the fact that "conquer" is a synonym for "win."

For example the word "conquer" could just as easily have been used in the following verse........

1 John 5:4

King James Version (KJV)


4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh (νικᾷ) the world: and this is the victory (νίκη) that overcometh (νικήσασα) the world, even our faith.

........so that the above verse would read as follows:

For whatsoever is born of God conquers the world: and this is the conquest that conquers the world, even our faith.

But, my point is, that if the word "nikao" in Rev. 6:2 had been translated as "overcome" "prevail" or "have the victory" just as it was in every other instance that the word "nikao" was used in the New Testament, there may have been a different impression given.

Couple that with the fact that the "crown" is actually not a diadem, but rather a "victor's wreath."

And add to that, the fact that death in verse 8 is brought on by sword, (in addition to hunger, death and beasts of the earth), not a bow.......

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

And the fact that "bow" does not necessarily refer to a weapon.

But, that's really all that I wanted to point out.

I'm not trying to add any meaning to the verse, other than to point out what some of the words, that were used, were. And what they could mean.

[shorttribber]

As for rearranging the sequence of the seals to fit my view of Revelation, it was actually the other way around. When I studied Revelation years ago, I started by trying to fit my understanding of the scriptures to fit the normal sequence of the opening of the seals, and it just didn’t make sense. For one, I couldn’t see and still don’t how God’s wrath, which destroys the earth, happens before God’s judgments (the trumpets) are levied on nonbelievers, who supposedly are still alive after the earth has been consumed by fire.

Sonbeam,
Your idea that is Half Historcist and Half Futurist is also my position. Please read this next section Very carefully and you will see a very reasonable way to rectify the rearrangement you feel Is necessary of the seals in relation to God's Wrath.

..............this is from my Shorttrib/Prewrath thread.....sorry it's long, but please read it carefully..............

At the opening of the sixth seal we see the signs in the sun, moon and in the heavens that parallel those found in Joel, Mathew and various others and ends with such words as "hide us from the face of Him who sets on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb",Rev 6:16 "for the great day of his wrath has come and who shall be able to stand?"vs.17

Here's where traditional prewrath sees the rapture occurring based on the words in vs 17 (I agree, in part, but I'll show you where I differ some).
Traditional prewrath finds what Marvin Rosenthal described as "a convergence"@ rev. 6:17 and all that follows thereafter (trumpets and such)is the wrath of God based on the words "His wrath has come" thus the name "prewrath".

What i'll show you next is an idea that must be remembered in order to grasp the remaining pattern and timeline I'll try to explain to you.

cont.
post # 4...................(1) The nearly identical statement "His wrath has come" is found in Rev11:18, in Rev6:17 the statement is said by the ungodly and in Rev 11:18 it is said by the twenty-four elders.

(2) All of the trumpet judgements are superimposed over the fourth thru sixth seals, thereby making the first trumpet coincide exactly with the revealing of the antichrist (the loser) so that all seven trumpets share the same time period as seals 4-6.
Of interest to me is that three(number of perfection) seals are enveloped and given greater clarity by seven (number of completion) trumpet judgements.

(3)Since the trumpets overlap seals 4-6 the gathering occurs at the seventh trumpet (the LAST trump)I Chor 15:51-52.
Rev 11:12-18 coincides exactly with Rev6:16-17. This is why I agree that Rev 6:17 is when the gathering occurs, because the seventh trumpet sounds at that point.

Well, you might say, that is not so, the trumpet judgements span a period of SEVEN years......oh?.....show me proof of that in scripture.
You may have your opinions but no proof for timelines exist among the seven trumpets themselves to suggest they need to stretch beyond three and a half years.

Backing up just a little bit i need to point out something that is often overlooked at the end of Rev 6:17.
Remember the words "His wrath has come", these are the words that generally garner the most attention and study, but,the statement continues........"who shall be able to stand?", these are critical words. Why? Because the following chapter introduces those Who WILL Stand, the 144,000 and the Church.

cont.
Post # 5......................I need to mention something here in regard to timelines: there is a common term used to describe sections of John's visions, I've used the term but as of recently found it to be inadequate. "Parentheses" is the term I have discarded in this writing in favor of "Definitive Interlude".
The reason for calling certain sections of John's vision a "Definitive interlude" is somewhat self explanatory in that they contain an area within the main vision that is not necessarily sequential but create a pause to give greater clarity to the overall vision.

From this point I will no longer type "Definitive Interlude" but will instead use "D.I.".

Having said that let's look back to D.I. number one (Rev chapter 7).

Why, you may ask would I classify Rev chap 7 a D.I.? Because it is set in it's position to give a "definitive" answer to the question posed in the previous chapter and verse, that being "who shall be able to stand"? It is also sandwiched between the sixth and the seventh seal thereby creating an "interlude" within them.

There is a pattern also that should be pointed out, if we look at the seals as a kind of condensed overview or introduction to the greater vision that speaks of God's proof to His people that even given ample time and opportunity, the enemies of the cross HAVE NOT and WILL NOT defeat us!

The pattern of covering large spans of time to prove God's deliverance is abundant throughout the greater single revelation to John.

cont.
Post # 6.....................Try now if you will to imagine a scroll rolled up tightly in front of you on a table or desk, it is sealed from top to bottom with seven seals. It is evident that the contents in it are "condensed", rolled together tightly. Now try to imagine a seal pops open and you then are able to peek inside just a little bit, then another seal pops and you can peek just a bit more, and one by one the seals pop until the scroll is able to open and lay flat on the table for your viewing.

the above illustration is one of the reasons I see the seals as condensed and introductory in nature.

[Jericho]

And last, but not least, I wanted to point out, that the word "bow" does not necessarily imply a weapon, or part of a weapon.

A bow can refer to many things.

For example, a bow can refer to a rainbow.

I have to disagree here. All the standard Greek Lexicons define "toxon" as a bow and only a bow. "Toxon" is used 75 times in the Septuagint for the Hebrew word "qesheth.". All expect a few times in Genesis is it used for rainbow because of the similar "shape" involved. The other times it is used to mean a weapon. Other root words that come from TOX also imply a bow, toxotes (Archer), toxeuo (shoot arrows), toxeuma (Arrow).

Moreover the Greek word "toxon" signified primarily an oriental weapon we call a bow. Dioscorides in the first century A.D. uses the word "toxikon" to signify the poison to smear arrows with. This is were we get the English word toxin, toxic, etc.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/prewrathonly/message/10893
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16671/16671-8.txt (under poisons)

First of all, it's important to note that there is nothing negative that is mentioned in relation to the white horse, or the rider of the white horse.

I disagree here too, look at who the white horse is associated with. The red horse (war), The black horse (death), The Pale or Green horse (famine). The is nothing good that comes from the seals being opened.

And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Here's my take on the rider on white horse in Revelation 6:2 who is the antithesis of the rider on the white horse in Revelation 19:11, which is Christ. White is the symbol for purity, righteousness, everything the Messiah is. Likewise many people will believe the Anti-Christ is the messiah and will worship him (Rev 13:8). He has a bow but no arrows signifying he may be a political\military leader (Someone like Alexander the Great) but he comes in peace. He's given a crown which significations he is given authority. Likewise the Anti-Christ is given authority over every tribe, tongue, and nation (Rev 13:7). He goes forth to conquer, Daniel says the Anti-Christ comes from among the ten kings and completely conquers three of them (Dan 7:24).

[shorttribber]

look at who the white horse is associated with. The red horse (war), The black horse (death), The Pale or Green horse (famine). The is nothing good that comes from the seals being opened.

I agree, the trend is entirely Destructive, and things that cause Suffering and Chaos.

[watching]

I have to disagree here. All the standard Greek Lexicons define "toxon" as a bow and only a bow.

Hi Jericho,

A bow is a shape.

It's not necessarily a weapon. Although, of course, it could refer to weapon.

See Mirriam Webster definition for the noun form of the word bow here:

3bow
noun \ˈbō\

Definition of BOW


1

a : something bent into a simple curve

b : rainbow

2

: a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow


3

: archer


4

a : a metal ring or loop forming a handle (as of a key)

b : a knot formed by doubling a ribbon or string into two or more loops

c : bow tie 1

d : a frame for the lenses of eyeglasses; also : the sidepiece of the frame passing over the ear

5

a : a wooden rod with horsehairs stretched from end to end used in playing an instrument of the viol or violin family

b : a stroke of such a bow

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bow

Also see Septuagint for "bow" (rainbow) in Genesis.

Gen 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

9:13 τὸ τόξον μου τίθημι ἐν τῇ νεφέλῃ καὶ ἔσται εἰς σημεῖον διαθήκης ἀνὰ μέσον ἐμοῦ καὶ τῆς γῆς

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=9&t=KJV#conc/13

Gen 9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:

9:14 καὶ ἔσται ἐν τῷ συννεφεῖν με νεφέλας ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν ὀφθήσεται τὸ τόξον μου ἐν τῇ νεφέλῃ

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=9&t=KJV#conc/14

Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that [is] upon the earth.

9:16 καὶ ἔσται τὸ τόξον μου ἐν τῇ νεφέλῃ καὶ ὄψομαι τοῦ μνησθῆναι διαθήκην αἰώνιον ἀνὰ μέσον ἐμοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον πάσης ψυχῆς ζώσης ἐν πάσῃ σαρκί ἥ ἐστιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gen&c=9&t=KJV#conc/16

I disagree here too, look at who the white horse is associated with. The red horse (war), The black horse (death), The Pale or Green horse (famine).

I don't know if it's necessarily an association, or a sequence.

The is nothing good that comes from the seals being opened.

What about the fifth seal?

Revelation 6:9-11

King James Version (KJV)


9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Or the seventh seal?

Rev 8:1 ¶ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour

[Jericho]

Hi watching,

A bow is a shape.

It's not necessarily a weapon. Although, of course, it could refer to weapon.

I think a bow as a weapon makes more sense here since he's conquering. Did you read the first URL I referenced? If you don't think it's a weapon what do you think it is?

What about the fifth seal?

Or the seventh seal?

The scriptures seem a little ambiguous as to what exactly happens once the 5th and 7th seal are opened. The 5th seal does mention judgement upon those who killed the saints. I suppose this is good but it proceeds something bad, the saints being killed. All we know of the 7th seal is there is silence for half an hour before more bad stuff happens. If these seals are positive or neutral it would certainly be uncharacteristic with the rest of the seals, trumpets, bowl judgements.

[shorttribber]

Jericho wrote:
The is nothing good that comes from the seals being opened.

What about the fifth seal?


Revelation 6:9-11

King James Version (KJV)


9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Or the seventh seal?


Rev 8:1 ¶ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour

"The is nothing good that comes from the seals being opened."
You'll notice that i did not agree with this part, but only that Destruction and Chaos is what all the Horses and riders represented.

You know what i think about the Power and Might of God in the Saints during that time.

Hello by the way watching, i hope you don't mind my slipping this comment in, i know you were addressing Jericho

[watching]

I think a bow as a weapon makes more sense here since he's conquering.

Hi Jericho,

That does seem to make sense.

I'm not saying that the rider of the white horse is not the anti-Christ, because I really do not know for sure if it's referring to the anti-Christ, or Christ, or both, or even neither. I don't want to say anything for certain.

Did you read the first URL I referenced?

Actually, I hadn't read it, but I just looked over it now.

If you don't think it's a weapon what do you think it is?

Well, the only thing that I'm thinking it could be referring to, if it's not referring to a weapon, is perhaps a rainbow.

Something else that may, or may not, have any bearing, that I have noticed is that the word translated as "had" is actually a participle. So, another way that the verse could be translated would be as follows:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and the one sitting on it having a bow and a garland was given unto him: and he went forth having overcome and so that he might overcome.

Again, I'm just stating another way to translate the verse.

I'm not saying who this may, or may not be referring to. It may be that the verse was meant to be ambiguous.

For that matter, it may be that many verses are meant to be ambiguous. I really don't know for certain.

The scriptures seem a little ambiguous as to what exactly happens once the 5th and 7th seal are opened.

I think the fact that white robes are given to the souls that were slain, seems like a positive thing to me.

Also, you have to ask yourself, how can souls wear a white robe? What does that mean happened at the fifth seal?

I don't know the answer, I'm just asking the question.

Then between the sixth and seventh seal we see the sealing of the 12 Tribes.

And.......

Rev 7:9 ¶ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

For the rest of chapter 7 see link:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=7&v=1&t=KJV

[watching]

Hello by the way watching, i hope you don't mind my slipping this comment in, i know you were addressing Jericho

I don't mind at all, Shorttibber. Good to hear from ya!

[shorttribber]

I don't mind at all, Shorttibber. Good to hear from ya!

backatcha!

[watching]

Hi Shorttribber, Jericho, Sonbeam,

Here's something else that I think is worth pointing out.

Only two horses are described as going forth. The white horse that is overcoming and the red horse that is given a sword to take peace from the earth. The other two horses are seen but they are not described as going forth.

Also the word translated as "went forth" is the Greek word ἐξέρχομαι (exerchomai).

What's interesting about the word "exerchomai" is that it can mean "go forth" or "come forth." It is used interchangeably for both.

So, there is no way to know whether the two horses are coming or going. Or, for that matter, if one is coming and one is going. There is just no way to distinguish, because the same word is used for both. Sometimes it's used for coming forth, and some times it's used for going forth.

See concordance for the word "exerchomai" here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 1831&t=KJV

So, there are only two horses that are described as coming and/or going forth. (The other horses are seen, but are not described as going or coming forth.)

The two horses that come or go forth are a white (leukos) horse.

See concordance for all the uses of the word "white" here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3022&t=KJV

And a fiery red (pyros) horse here:

See concordance for all the uses of "fiery red" here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4450&t=KJV

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam,

I can see that you are getting HIT hard with some resistance to your theory, but I know that it has been all with love.

When you have the time, I'd like to ask you about this statement that you wrote:

I do not see a literal millennium happening on this earth. I interpret the millennium to be eternity with the Lord starting right after the saints are gathered to Him.

As you know, the term "millennium" is not written in Scripture. Since you do not "see a literal millennium happening on this earth" - can you please explain how you see:

Revelation 19:11-16 "The Coming of Christ"

11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and [b]in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12) His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13) He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14) And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15) From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16) And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”[/b]

The aforementioned shows the "Coming of Christ" to the Earth to establish His Kingdom.

Hi Mr. B!

Good to “see” you again. Yes, I knew I’d get “pummelled” (lovingly or otherwise) when I started this thread. There are others who also believe the seals have already been opened, but I have not come across anyone who sees them open since the garden and in the sequence I do. No surprise there huh?

When you say Christ is coming to earth to establish His kingdom, do you mean a “thousand year” kingdom as you believe? And on this earth as it is? Or His Kingdom on the new earth?

Let me answer you what I think anyway. I do not see the above passage as Christ coming to establish His Kingdom (on the new earth) yet, but rather as Christ coming as a judge to pour down His “fierce wrath” (7 bowls) on the unbelieving world.

I say this for several reasons:

1) I believe the phrases I’ve highlighted show He’s coming to “judge the nations” before He creates a new heaven and a new earth and establishes His Kingdom.

2) At His Second Coming, Christ says we will see him “ … the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Matt 26:64, Mar 14:62) rather than riding on a horse as shown in Rev 19:11.

Matt 26:64 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Mar 14:62 "You have said so," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

3)If we take the Rev 19 passage in context, we see that vss 19:7-8 say that “fine linen bright and clean was given” to the Bride, which implies that Christ’s Second Coming to gather His saints has already happened. Therefore, I believe those riding on white horses along with Christ are His saints since vs 19:14 echoes that same phrase, “fine linen white and clean.” Rev 17:14 confirms this I believe:

They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

And I'll take some time to review the other passage you quoted and answer your questions later from what I see. OK?

[Sonbeam]

As for rearranging the sequence of the seals to fit my view of Revelation, it was actually the other way around. When I studied Revelation years ago, I started by trying to fit my understanding of the scriptures to fit the normal sequence of the opening of the seals, and it just didn’t make sense. For one, I couldn’t see and still don’t how God’s wrath, which destroys the earth, happens before God’s judgments (the trumpets) are levied on nonbelievers, who supposedly are still alive after the earth has been consumed by fire.

Sonbeam,
Your idea that is Half Historcist and Half Futurist is also my position. Please read this next section Very carefully and you will see a very reasonable way to rectify the rearrangement you feel Is necessary of the seals in relation to God's Wrath.

..............this is from my Shorttrib/Prewrath thread.....sorry it's long, but please read it carefully..............

At the opening of the sixth seal we see the signs in the sun, moon and in the heavens that parallel those found in Joel, Mathew and various others and ends with such words as "hide us from the face of Him who sets on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb",Rev 6:16 "for the great day of his wrath has come and who shall be able to stand?"vs.17

Here's where traditional prewrath sees the rapture occurring based on the words in vs 17 (I agree, in part, but I'll show you where I differ some).
Traditional prewrath finds what Marvin Rosenthal described as "a convergence"@ rev. 6:17 and all that follows thereafter (trumpets and such)is the wrath of God based on the words "His wrath has come" thus the name "prewrath".

What i'll show you next is an idea that must be remembered in order to grasp the remaining pattern and timeline I'll try to explain to you.

cont.
post # 4...................(1) The nearly identical statement "His wrath has come" is found in Rev11:18, in Rev6:17 the statement is said by the ungodly and in Rev 11:18 it is said by the twenty-four elders.

(2) All of the trumpet judgements are superimposed over the fourth thru sixth seals, thereby making the first trumpet coincide exactly with the revealing of the antichrist (the loser) so that all seven trumpets share the same time period as seals 4-6.
Of interest to me is that three(number of perfection) seals are enveloped and given greater clarity by seven (number of completion) trumpet judgements.

(3)Since the trumpets overlap seals 4-6 the gathering occurs at the seventh trumpet (the LAST trump)I Chor 15:51-52.
Rev 11:12-18 coincides exactly with Rev6:16-17. This is why I agree that Rev 6:17 is when the gathering occurs, because the seventh trumpet sounds at that point.

Well, you might say, that is not so, the trumpet judgements span a period of SEVEN years......oh?.....show me proof of that in scripture.
You may have your opinions but no proof for timelines exist among the seven trumpets themselves to suggest they need to stretch beyond three and a half years.

Backing up just a little bit i need to point out something that is often overlooked at the end of Rev 6:17.
Remember the words "His wrath has come", these are the words that generally garner the most attention and study, but,the statement continues........"who shall be able to stand?", these are critical words. Why? Because the following chapter introduces those Who WILL Stand, the 144,000 and the Church.

cont.
Post # 5......................I need to mention something here in regard to timelines: there is a common term used to describe sections of John's visions, I've used the term but as of recently found it to be inadequate. "Parentheses" is the term I have discarded in this writing in favor of "Definitive Interlude".
The reason for calling certain sections of John's vision a "Definitive interlude" is somewhat self explanatory in that they contain an area within the main vision that is not necessarily sequential but create a pause to give greater clarity to the overall vision.

From this point I will no longer type "Definitive Interlude" but will instead use "D.I.".

Having said that let's look back to D.I. number one (Rev chapter 7).

Why, you may ask would I classify Rev chap 7 a D.I.? Because it is set in it's position to give a "definitive" answer to the question posed in the previous chapter and verse, that being "who shall be able to stand"? It is also sandwiched between the sixth and the seventh seal thereby creating an "interlude" within them.

There is a pattern also that should be pointed out, if we look at the seals as a kind of condensed overview or introduction to the greater vision that speaks of God's proof to His people that even given ample time and opportunity, the enemies of the cross HAVE NOT and WILL NOT defeat us!

The pattern of covering large spans of time to prove God's deliverance is abundant throughout the greater single revelation to John.

cont.
Post # 6.....................Try now if you will to imagine a scroll rolled up tightly in front of you on a table or desk, it is sealed from top to bottom with seven seals. It is evident that the contents in it are "condensed", rolled together tightly. Now try to imagine a seal pops open and you then are able to peek inside just a little bit, then another seal pops and you can peek just a bit more, and one by one the seals pop until the scroll is able to open and lay flat on the table for your viewing.

the above illustration is one of the reasons I see the seals as condensed and introductory in nature.

Hi Shorttribber!

You've given me a lot to digest here. So it'll take some time for me to do that. I couldn't help busting out laughing when I saw what you wrote here ST:

Well, you might say, that is not so, the trumpet judgements span a period of SEVEN years......oh?.....show me proof of that in scripture.
You may have your opinions but no proof for timelines exist among the seven trumpets themselves to suggest they need to stretch beyond three and a half years.

You were having a debate with me disagreeing with me on something you think I might believe! That's funny!

But that tells me that I need to finish explaining further why I believe the rest of the seals, namely the 7th and 5th seals, have been opened in the order that I listed them in this thread.

That way you all can disagree with me on what I believe rather than what anyone thinks that I believe.

[Sonbeam]

Hi Shorttribber, Jericho, Sonbeam,


So, there is no way to know whether the two horses are coming or going. Or, for that matter, if one is coming and one is going. There is just no way to distinguish, because the same word is used for both. Sometimes it's used for coming forth, and some times it's used for going forth.

Hi Watching!

I really appreciate what you do trying to keep us all straight on the word definitions, but your quote above really made my day by giving me a good belly laugh.



Oh no! I thought. We are having a hard time agreeing on anything around here, now we don't even know whether the horses are coming or going! Take pity on us watching.

[shorttribber]

You were having a debate with me disagreeing with me on something you think I might believe! That's funny!

That way you all can disagree with me on what I believe rather than what anyone thinks that I believe.

Oh no Sonbeam,
As i understand it, you do not believe in a seven year trib, and neither do i. These comments are, as i said, moved over from my Shorttrib/Prewrath thread.......the thread's been up on FP for several years now.

That seven year comment wasn't directed at you, only to those who expect an entire seven year future tribulation.

[Sonbeam]

You were having a debate with me disagreeing with me on something you think I might believe! That's funny!

That way you all can disagree with me on what I believe rather than what anyone thinks that I believe.

Oh no Sonbeam,
As i understand it, you do not believe in a seven year trib, and neither do i. These comments are, as i said, moved over from my Shorttrib/Prewrath thread.......the thread's been up on FP for several years now.

That seven year comment wasn't directed at you, only to those who expect an entire seven year future tribulation.

Oops! Sorry shorttribber!

And no, I don't believe in a continuous 7 year trib, but I do believe there will be some persecution and killings of saints (it's even going on now) leading up to the last 3 1/2 years before the coming of Christ. During those last 3 1/2 years, the saints will undergo the great tribulation under the reign of the anti-Christ.

[wkc]

Just to mix things up a bit; it seems to me that all of the seals have been opened.

The Book with Seven Seals

5 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”

6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the [h]book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the [i]saints. 9 And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the [j]book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
Angels Exalt the Lamb

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”

13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,

“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Several points:

This is one of those "already but not yet" ideologies that is prevalent throughout the scripture. Ordained, but not yet manifested, if you will.

It appears to be clear from the previous passage above that these events take place with the death on the cross and while ordained from before the foundation of the world, not manifest until the cross. At which time also, we who believe (receive) are redeemed, (ordained but not manifest), sealed with the Spirit as earnest until the manifestation takes place.

Chapter 6 indicates that the seals are "broken", not future, not present, but past. Jesus, has broken the seals, so what we are left with is are the events future? Or is it possible that they are already but not yet. Each of the seal judgements are described fully by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. It seems that the descriptions of each seal are the culmination of continuous events. So you might say, what about the sixth seal, it definitely hasn't happened, but is it the culmination of earth/cosmos events? So what about the Trumpets, again, it is the culmination of events.

The seals have been opened; the crescendo or culmination is building, like a woman in labor.

There is no indication anywhere in scripture that the seals coincide with the 7 year tribulation.

Jesus never mentioned a 7 year tribulation, only a Great Tribulation but that is for another discussion.

This is my two cents. I'm not certain about the one on the white horse (still trying to get past the traditional teaching), but I'm thinking it may not be what is commonly understood.

[shorttribber]

There is no indication anywhere in scripture that the seals coincide with the 7 year tribulation.

Jesus never mentioned a 7 year tribulation, only a Great Tribulation but that is for another discussion.

[Mr Baldy]

Sonbeam you wrote this:

Historically, I see all the seals, with the exception of the 6th, as having already been opened

And in contrast, Ready1 responded with this reply:

Two Points:

Point 1: While these are interesting thoughts, it seems to me that you have neglected one small phrase in Revelation 4 which modifies everything in the book which follows.

Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door was opened in Heaven. And the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, saying, Come up here, and I will show you what must occur after these things.

Point 2: My God can count, and 1,2,4,3,7,5,6 is poor counting. Three comes before four, five and six come before seven and seven comes after six.

I concur......regardless of what Rapture view one may hold, the opening of the seals appear to be in chronological order. I respectfully have to totally disagree with your assessment Sonbeam. And to add... I don't think that any of the seals will be broken until after the A0D has taken place.

[extravagantchristian]

Sounds plausible. Doesn't revelation describe a scene where none was found worthy to open the seals, except Jesus, so are you saying that scene took place right before Adam sinned?

[Sonbeam]

Chapter 6 indicates that the seals are "broken", not future, not present, but past. Jesus, has broken the seals, so what we are left with is are the events future? Or is it possible that they are already but not yet. Each of the seal judgements are described fully by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. It seems that the descriptions of each seal are the culmination of continuous events. So you might say, what about the sixth seal, it definitely hasn't happened, but is it the culmination of earth/cosmos events? So what about the Trumpets, again, it is the culmination of events.

The seals have been opened; the crescendo or culmination is building, like a woman in labor.

Welcome wkc!

I think you’ve added great comments that further illuminate and expand the discussion we are having.

I believe the words “broken or opened” in regards to the seals are simply symbolic words that mean God has set in motion, from the very beginning of time, the on-going fulfillment during this age of the events described in those seals.

Looking back on the history of man, we can confirm this by taking note of those events described in some of the seals which have already happened, i.e., death, famine, plagues, etc., and that continue to happen, while the 7 trumpets and the 7 bowls of God’s wrath are yet to happen in the future.

And so yes! "the crescendo or culmination is building, like a woman in labor." But not necessarily something that any of us would be looking forward to experiencing IMO, except of course the coming of our Lord.

[Sonbeam]

I believe I should finish giving my reasons for my views on the opening of the seals to give you a more complete picture of my views before I answer the rest of your questions. Perhaps then you will better understand where I'm coming from even if you don't agree with me.

I think historical events up to our time validate, as far as I can see, that the first four seals have already been opened. So let me explain why I see the 7th as being already opened. And I’ll give my explanation on the 5th next.

The Seventh Seal

Rev 8
1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might [a]add it to the prayers of all the [b]saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, [c]with the prayers of the [d]saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.

5 Then the angel [e]took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

The number 7 is considered to be God’s number and to be symbolic of His perfection and the completeness that is His alone.

Therefore, I place the opening of the seventh seal at Christ’s first coming, when God in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ came to earth to live among men.

According to Luke 3:23, “Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry” so for the first 30 years of His life He was silent in regards to His mission.

I believe this is what the 30 minutes of silence in heaven (Rev 8:1) mean. The very Word of God came down from heaven and did not go forth in its fullness until our Lord began His ministry during the last three years of His life.

The prayers of the saints going up before the throne of God are words of praise and worship no doubt, and perhaps also pleas for God to send down the Redeemer for our deliverance – a prayer He answered!

Fire in the Old Testament is specially associated with the God’s divine presence, e.g. in Gen 15:17 where God makes the Covenant with Abraham, in the burning bush in Exodus 3:2-4 and in Exodus 13:21 in the pillar of fire. But fire is also associated with cleansing and refining as in Isaiah 6:5-7.

Isaiah 6:5 Then I said, “Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.”

6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.
7 He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is [d]forgiven.”

It is in this sense that I see the throwing of fire on the earth by the angel in Rev 8:5 as symbolic of the cleansing of sin that Jesus Christ’s death on the cross brought for the whole world. And the “peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake” recorded in Rev 8:6 as the earthquake that followed immediately after our Lord’s death as recorded in Matt 27:50-54.

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split
52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

And it is between Christ’s ascension and the events of the first trumpet yet to be fulfilled that I see an ongoing interlude to this day.

[wkc]

Hi Sonbeam,

Thank you for the warm greeting. No real disagreement with your explanation, it is as plausible as any. I think the main point we are making is that a) the seals have been broken b) the judgments described in each seal are ongoing and cumulative, c) they are not associated with a 7-year tribulation (for years, I thought they were, but after lots of study have concluded otherwise), and d) there are still events in man's future within the seal judgments, they have not yet concluded.

I'm not particularly a historicist or futurist. God is eternal, and therefore yesterday is a fresh as tomorrow. We try to understand from our points of reference and it is especially difficult, with the finite time we are here, to comprehend eternal matters and events. I'm not saying there isn't a timeline, just saying that God's thoughts and will are not confined to a timeline as we perceive it.

The basic question we are trying to answer with all of our thoughts and theories is when will Jesus return. It is the hope of HIs coming that fuels our hearts and minds and we all long for the manifested redemption.

Grace and Peace,

wkc

[watching]

Hi Sonbeam and wkc,

I think we can get a pretty good idea of what was past, present, and future (from the time John was being given the apocalypse) by the following verses:

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;............




.................Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

[Douggg]

[quote="Sonbeam"]

Hi Sonbeam, technically all of the seals have been opened - at the time of John or else we would not know what they contained. The events themselves in each seal are still future awaiting the arrival of the Antichrist, the rider on the white horse. The rider on the white horse is the only one with a crown, he will be a king, a leader. The other three riders are faceless visionary personifications of war, famine, death, and hell.

The seals summarize what will happen during the Antichrist's reign and during the seven trumpets and the seven vials.

Doug

[lamb7]

As for rearranging the sequence of the seals to fit my view of Revelation, it was actually the other way around. When I studied Revelation years ago, I started by trying to fit my understanding of the scriptures to fit the normal sequence of the opening of the seals, and it just didn’t make sense. For one, I couldn’t see and still don’t how God’s wrath, which destroys the earth, happens before God’s judgments (the trumpets) are levied on nonbelievers, who supposedly are still alive after the earth has been consumed by fire.

Hi Sonbeam,

Just sneaking in here to throw an idea into this thought of yours. Could the Trumpets happen before the mid-point when the AC is revealed and could we look at them also as 'warning', one last plea to turn to God before the 3 1/2 years to which the AC will reign, demand the MOB and his 'trampling of the Saints'? I know these plagues are as bad as the Bowls of Wrath, but I still see warning here. We see in Revelation 9:20-21,

Revelation 9:20-21

20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

This, to me, shows that God is still trying to reach people; He is warning them as trumpets are used and like there is still time to 'repent'; all of this still happening before the Mark of the Beast, for once it is taken it is then that there truly is no more hope for those who have??? And it is later, in the latter of the 3 1/2 year of Great Tribulation, that the Bowls of Wrath are poured out?

Again, just a thought to ponder.

[Sonbeam]

[quote="lamb7Hi Sonbeam,

Just sneaking in here to throw an idea into this thought of yours. Could the Trumpets happen before the mid-point when the AC is revealed and could we look at them also as 'warning', one last plea to turn to God before the 3 1/2 years to which the AC will reign, demand the MOB and his 'trampling of the Saints'? I know these plagues are as bad as the Bowls of Wrath, but I still see warning here. We see in Revelation 9:20-21,

Revelation 9:20-21

20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

This, to me, shows that God is still trying to reach people; He is warning them as trumpets are used and like there is still time to 'repent'; all of this still happening before the Mark of the Beast, for once it is taken it is then that there truly is no more hope for those who have??? And it is later, in the latter of the 3 1/2 year of Great Tribulation, that the Bowls of Wrath are poured out?

Again, just a thought to ponder.

Hi Lamb7!

Good thought to ponder. I've thought the same things. Thank you for bringing this up. And I'll give you some quick answers about what I believe on the trumpets.

I think that in the plagues of Egypt we have a picture, a foreshadow of what is to happen during the 3 1/2 year reign of the anti-Christ which is the same time frame when the two witnesses will be performing their mission.

I believe these two witness will come in the spirit of Moses and Aaron and will have the power to afflict the world with different plagues, e.g., turn water to blood, pollute water, darkness, etc. (2d, 3rd, 4th trumpets and perhaps the 5th and 6th also), each time the anti-Christ refuses to stop the persecution and killing of the saints. And I believe the saints will be kept safe by God through these plagues, just like He kept the Israelites. Ex 9:26, Ex 10:23.

I tend to believe the first trumpet portends nuclear war (God forbid!) and that that will happen prior to anti-Christ's reign. And that after this happens, that that might be the time when the anti-Christ comes on the scene to present himself as savior of the world and the only one capable of leading the world out of the chaos caused by the war. But there's always the possibility that the saints will know who the anti-Christ is prior to all this.

As for when the bowls of wrath are poured out, I strongly believe the saints won't be here for that. And that we'll be out of here when the two witnesses are resurrected.

[Sonbeam]

The Fifth Seal

Rev 6: 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

Reading this passage, several questions come to mind.

Why are these saints “under the altar”? They are already dead as verse 9 asserts, so shouldn’t they be “in heaven” in the presence of the Lord?

And why are these dead saints supposedly speaking or aware of anything at this time? Other scriptures in the bible like Ecc 9:5, & 10, say the dead know nothing, or work, plan, or have wisdom. While Ps 6:5, 88:10,11, and 115:17 say the dead do not speak, and that they are in a place of silence.

What do the white robes represent?

I believe the Lord is using a parable here to illustrate to us a spiritual truth. A spiritual truth that has do with the process of salvation. And I think that my interpretation answers the questions I posed above.

The saints spoken of in this passage are those saints who died as martyrs prior to the Cross. These saints had been saved by faith when they died, but they had not had their past sins atoned for until Christ paid for them on the Cross and shed His blood for their forgiveness. This is why I have placed the 5th seal as being "opened" after the 7th seal.

This was the reason that these saints were under the altar rather than in heaven in the presence of God. Christ did say before He went to the Cross that no one had seen the Father except Him. John 6:46

Once Christ completed His mission on the Cross, these martyred saints, along with all other saints who had been saved before their death prior to the Cross (Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc.) were given the righteousness that came through the sacrifice of Christ. This is what the white robes signify.

I have said that this 5th seal is closed because the circumstances under which these saints died (in regards to salvation) do not and will not apply to all the saints who have been and will have been born after the Cross.

[Sonbeam]

Hi Sonbeam,

Thank you for the warm greeting. No real disagreement with your explanation, it is as plausible as any. I think the main point we are making is that a) the seals have been broken b) the judgments described in each seal are ongoing and cumulative, c) they are not associated with a 7-year tribulation (for years, I thought they were, but after lots of study have concluded otherwise), and d) there are still events in man's future within the seal judgments, they have not yet concluded.

I'm not particularly a historicist or futurist. God is eternal, and therefore yesterday is a fresh as tomorrow. We try to understand from our points of reference and it is especially difficult, with the finite time we are here, to comprehend eternal matters and events. I'm not saying there isn't a timeline, just saying that God's thoughts and will are not confined to a timeline as we perceive it.

The basic question we are trying to answer with all of our thoughts and theories is when will Jesus return. It is the hope of HIs coming that fuels our hearts and minds and we all long for the manifested redemption.

Grace and Peace,

wkc

We are on the same page wkc.

His blessings to you also.

Sonbeam

[Exit40]

The Fifth Seal

Rev 6: 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

Isn't the altar in front of God's Throne ? And sitting on the crystal sea ? So the martyrs would be almost directly under God's feet, on the next level if you will, but very close to Him, even maybe seeing Him through the sea. I believe this would be all martyr's of all time, except for those not yet killed as they had been, who will get there soon enough, at least before the sixth seal.

RT, straighten me out on this one please ?

God Bless You

David

[wkc]

Hi Watching,

Just wondering if you could provide more info on what you are trying to convey in the scriptures below?

Hi Sonbeam and wkc,

I think we can get a pretty good idea of what was past, present, and future (from the time John was being given the apocalypse) by the following verses:

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;............

.................Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.