Sonbeam wrote:As for rearranging the sequence of the seals to fit my view of Revelation, it was actually the other way around. When I studied Revelation years ago, I started by trying to fit my understanding of the scriptures to fit the normal sequence of the opening of the seals, and it just didn’t make sense. For one, I couldn’t see and still don’t how God’s wrath, which destroys the earth, happens before God’s judgments (the trumpets) are levied on nonbelievers, who supposedly are still alive after the earth has been consumed by fire.
Sonbeam,
Your idea that is Half Historcist and Half Futurist is also my position. Please read this next section Very carefully and you will see a very reasonable way to rectify the rearrangement you feel Is necessary of the seals in relation to God's Wrath.
..............this is from my Shorttrib/Prewrath thread.....sorry it's long, but please read it carefully..............
At the opening of the sixth seal we see the signs in the sun, moon and in the heavens that parallel those found in Joel, Mathew and various others and ends with such words as "hide us from the face of Him who sets on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb",Rev 6:16 "for the great day of his wrath has come and who shall be able to stand?"vs.17
Here's where traditional prewrath sees the rapture occurring based on the words in vs 17 (I agree, in part, but I'll show you where I differ some).
Traditional prewrath finds what Marvin Rosenthal described as "a convergence"@ rev. 6:17 and all that follows thereafter (trumpets and such)is the wrath of God based on the words "His wrath has come" thus the name "prewrath".
What i'll show you next is an idea that must be remembered in order to grasp the remaining pattern and timeline I'll try to explain to you.
cont.
post # 4...................(1) The nearly identical statement "His wrath has come" is found in Rev11:18, in Rev6:17 the statement is said by the ungodly and in Rev 11:18 it is said by the twenty-four elders.
(2) All of the trumpet judgements are superimposed over the fourth thru sixth seals, thereby making the first trumpet coincide exactly with the revealing of the antichrist (the loser) so that all seven trumpets share the same time period as seals 4-6.
Of interest to me is that three(number of perfection) seals are enveloped and given greater clarity by seven (number of completion) trumpet judgements.
(3)Since the trumpets overlap seals 4-6 the gathering occurs at the seventh trumpet (the LAST trump)I Chor 15:51-52.
Rev 11:12-18 coincides exactly with Rev6:16-17. This is why I agree that Rev 6:17 is when the gathering occurs, because the seventh trumpet sounds at that point.
Well, you might say, that is not so, the trumpet judgements span a period of SEVEN years......oh?.....show me proof of that in scripture.
You may have your opinions but no proof for timelines exist among the seven trumpets themselves to suggest they need to stretch beyond three and a half years.
Backing up just a little bit i need to point out something that is often overlooked at the end of Rev 6:17.
Remember the words "His wrath has come", these are the words that generally garner the most attention and study, but,the statement continues........"who shall be able to stand?", these are critical words. Why? Because the following chapter introduces those Who WILL Stand, the 144,000 and the Church.
cont.
Post # 5......................I need to mention something here in regard to timelines: there is a common term used to describe sections of John's visions, I've used the term but as of recently found it to be inadequate. "Parentheses" is the term I have discarded in this writing in favor of "Definitive Interlude".
The reason for calling certain sections of John's vision a "Definitive interlude" is somewhat self explanatory in that they contain an area within the main vision that is not necessarily sequential but create a pause to give greater clarity to the overall vision.
From this point I will no longer type "Definitive Interlude" but will instead use "D.I.".
Having said that let's look back to D.I. number one (Rev chapter 7).
Why, you may ask would I classify Rev chap 7 a D.I.? Because it is set in it's position to give a "definitive" answer to the question posed in the previous chapter and verse, that being "who shall be able to stand"? It is also sandwiched between the sixth and the seventh seal thereby creating an "interlude" within them.
There is a pattern also that should be pointed out, if we look at the seals as a kind of condensed overview or introduction to the greater vision that speaks of God's proof to His people that even given ample time and opportunity, the enemies of the cross HAVE NOT and WILL NOT defeat us!
The pattern of covering large spans of time to prove God's deliverance is abundant throughout the greater single revelation to John.
cont.
Post # 6.....................Try now if you will to imagine a scroll rolled up tightly in front of you on a table or desk, it is sealed from top to bottom with seven seals. It is evident that the contents in it are "condensed", rolled together tightly. Now try to imagine a seal pops open and you then are able to peek inside just a little bit, then another seal pops and you can peek just a bit more, and one by one the seals pop until the scroll is able to open and lay flat on the table for your viewing.
the above illustration is one of the reasons I see the seals as condensed and introductory in nature.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.