Commandments in the NT

[Abiding in His Word]

Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' (caps NASB)
Mat 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Mat 22:39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' (caps NASB)
Mat 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

The first commandment reflects our relationship with God. The second reflects our relationship with our neighbor. Both commandments have love as their foundation. Love for God leads us to put Him first in our lives. Love for our neighbor leads us to consider others and treat them as we want to be treated.

If Jesus said these two commands are the embodiment of the whole law and Paul said the same in Romans 10:13, are there other commands in the NT?

For example, is it a command that must be obeyed to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you..."

And is this a command? "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off...."

Are there others that Jesus didn't mention that must be obeyed that fall outside of the "first God/second neighbor" great commandments?

[daffodyllady]

Abiding, I see all other NT commandments as directives from the Son of God, telling us how to fulfill the First and Greatest Commandment. As such, they are simply clarifications of the will of the Father, and yes, in that sense, commandments. Not separate from the First and Greatest Commandment, but part of the whole.

In fact, the Second Commandment that Jesus gave us, is actually an extension of the First. If we love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, we will love who/what God loves. We will work alongside and in the yoke with Jesus, to do the Father's will, in bringing the world to repentance and salvation. ...Not because of our own love for the world, but because of the Father's love flowing through us.

Because, really, if we do not love God as we ought, then we cannot love our neighbor as we ought. As Paul said, "In me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing." Even an appearance of love toward others is tainted by some selfish motive, if we are not motivated and empowered by the Spirit of God.

[Abiding in His Word]

Thank you for your response, daffodyllady.

We will work alongside and in the yoke with Jesus, to do the Father's will, in bringing the world to repentance and salvation

Jesus said His yoke is easy and His burden is light. To me, then, this means if we "yoke with Jesus" as you mentioned, it is not a burdensome thing. He said we would find rest for our souls with His yoke. Rest....

Then as you said, if we are to bring the world to repentance and salvation, Matthew 28:19-20 must be a command, right?

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you....Mat 28:19-20

What about this verse; is it a command?

"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you...." Mat 5:30

Jesus does speak specifically of commandments, but those speak of love. In fact, the word love is found 184 times in the NT.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. John 15:12

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." John 13:34

So, in my thinking, the love of God and neighbor is the embodiment of the gospel. These two commandments assure we will put no false idols before our love of God and no unkind, unjust, unloving treatment of our earthly relationships.

[Abiding in His Word]

Are these NT commands/commandments?

Therefore I say to you, Do not be anxious for your life, what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, what you shall put on. Mat 6:25

"If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. "For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you. John 13:14-15

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine....Mat 7:6

Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 1Cor. 14:1

Greet one another with a holy kiss. 2Cor. 13:12

….do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. Php 2:4

….. admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 1Thes. 5:14

Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
1Tim. 2:8

[daffodyllady]

Of course, some scriptures are given in figurative language, such as casting pearls before swine... read the context, and you can understand Jesus was talking about not sharing precious spiritual things with those who we know will respond with blaspheming and hatred. The Holy Spirit will direct us when to speak and what to say. Otherwise, our words are like seeds thrown into the teeth of a hurricane, in hopes of a harvest.

Most people on these forums think of themselves as taking the Word of God at face value. In other words, they believe that if they read that we shall suffer persecution, then we shall suffer persecution. If they believe God says clearly that we will escape via the Rapture, then they take that literally. If the Word says that Christ rose from the dead on the third day, they take that literally. If the Word says to lift up holy hands in prayer, or to give as teh Lord has prospered us, they believe that is to be taken literally.

Yet, how many are willing to take literally the commands that are not popular in modern American Churchianity?
How about Paul's command to share with those who have less, so that there may be equality? How about Christ's command to NOT lay up treasure on this earth?

I tend to believe that the Word of God is to be taken literally, inasmuch as it is not obviously to be taken figuratively.

When Christ told us to cut off that which causes us to stumble, He wanted us to think seriously about that which truely is at the root of our sinful behavior. Hands do not cause to sin. Eyes do not cause to lust. It is the sin that lies within us, that draws us away into transgression. That part of us has to be actively cut off. I have to choose to lie down and die to my fleshly lust, even when it is screaming like a spoiled brat for another helping of sin.

You are right, the commands of Jesus are not hard to obey, if we are in love with Him. But if we actually are in love with the world, the flesh, and the devil, then Jesus' yoke will be heavy, and His commandments grievous.

And yes, my church does wash feet together, not only to obey the commandment literally, but also to keep in mind what it means: that we are to daily serve one another. The literal obedience is hard for one who is not humble enough to bare his feet to another. Just as accepting charity is hard on one who is not humble.

[mark s]

Very well stated, daffodyllady!

[Abiding in His Word]

You are right, the commands of Jesus are not hard to obey, if we are in love with Him. But if we actually are in love with the world, the flesh, and the devil, then Jesus' yoke will be heavy, and His commandments grievous.

Just wondering, daffodyllady, do you know believers who are "in love" with the world, flesh, and the devil? Really, I can honestly say I have never met such a believer. I have, however, met hundreds of believers who suffer from guilt, shame, and a sense of unworthiness even though the gospel tells them differently. That's why I asked the question about NT commandments as these believers are hearing NT gospel presented in a way that focuses on sin, lists of "thou shalts" and "thou shalt not" rather than of grace, mercy and righteousness.

NT commandments are not burdensome.

They are followed as the direct result of a changed heart. That's why Jesus said “take My yoke....” His yoke brings rest to the weary and heavy-laden. This is in direct contrast to the Pharisees who weighed people down with very heavy burdens they were unable to bear. That's why Peter reprimanded those who wanted to place a a heavy yoke on the disciples that no one can bear. And it's the reason Paul admonished believers to not allow a yoke of bondage to be imposed on them, but to stand firm in their freedom.

NT commandments are not intended to be oppressive.

That's why James criticized those who would oppress the poor and favor the rich. That's why he calls the just, fair, and impartial treatment of everyone, the “Royal Law.” He also mentions the law of liberty which is based on mercy, love, and concern for those who are in need.

NT commandments are different than the “precepts of man.”

That's why Jesus warned about those who would add to or devise rules and regulations that were above and beyond those contained in scripture. That's why He warned about false teachers and false prophets who would teach doctrine under the guise of being biblical, but in fact is merely a precept of their imagination. Those who teach oppressive, false commands sneak in unaware to curtail the liberty believers have in Christ Jesus. Their purpose is to bring bondage and sanction penalties.

NT commandments are based on love and liberty.

That's why James calls them the “perfect law of liberty” that puts love into action. It's the reason Paul said it was for freedom that Christ set us free. Jesus said knowing the truth sets us free and if He sets us free, we will be free indeed. That liberty and freedom was paid for on the cross so His commandments do not result in bondage, but rather a desire to be bond-servants to HIM. We love because He first loved us. It's a reciprocal, mutual love that is the fulfillment of the two commands to love the Lord our God and our neighbor as ourselves.

Sometimes the Bible and/or the NT is presented as a “book of laws.” But that's the way the Pharisees continually presented it even after being converted. But to the believer, they are faith-building words of life, liberty and love. A red flag should go up when we hear NT commandments presented as burdensome words, that reflect bondage and focus on rules and regulations. Those who sneak in to spy out the life, love, and liberty believers have should be exposed as false teachers. New Testament commandments do not bring guilt, shame, oppression, or bondage, but just the opposite. They should not be perceived as another 613 laws in a different timeframe.

There are churches today whose covenants, beliefs, and focus distorts the gospel and presents a list of rules and commandments that resemble the OT law rather than the gospel of grace. My association with Christian friends and acquaintances who believe in this type of oppressive teachings led to my question about the commandments in the NT. I know more believers who are suffering from spiritual abuse than those who are rejoicing in the Lord.

[aaron]

NT commandments are different than the “precepts of man.”

That's why Jesus warned about those who would add to or devise rules and regulations that were above and beyond those contained in scripture. That's why He warned about false teachers and false prophets who would teach doctrine under the guise of being biblical, but in fact is merely a precept of their imagination. Those who teach oppressive, false commands sneak in unaware to curtail the liberty believers have in Christ Jesus. Their purpose is to bring bondage and sanction penalties.

I think conversations such as this will become more commonplace as we near the return of the King. Because people will have itching ears they will heap up for themselves teachers...

I too have run into some people who have commandments of men right along with Bible commands and can't seem to discern the difference. We have the Holy Spirit to guide us, comfort us, bring the words of Christ to remembrance.

For example, I have some Christian neighbors who believe children should be home-schooled by mom, and dad must work full time outside the home. While I don't bring this us to change the conversation, this makes an interesting point. They believe their way of family structure is the only way, therefore, all who don't conform are looked down upon. You can find some instructions from Paul in the NT about young widows and such, and some OT examples of men teaching children, but you don't have a clear cut commandment of how a Christian family should be structured. There is a broad spectrum of family structures in Christianity, but in the end we need to be led by the Holy Spirit as to how to walk worthy of His calling, and not rely on the opinion of a pastor or ministry. I continue to be nice to my neighbors even if they frown on my family structure. I know they would frown on my views on spiritual gifts as they are from a conservative Baptist denomination.

Baptists and pentecostals in the same room make for interesting discussions! Anyway...

We know we cannot earn our salvation by obeying the 10 commandments, or the 1,10,000,000,000 commandments of modern church teachings. lol.

We have been set free, and we cannot let ourselves be tangled by a yoke of bondage .. and even more important, like you ended your post Abiding, we absolutely cannot let others steal the joy of our salvation with their pet doctrines.

btw, been gone a while off the board, just thought I'd stop by and say hi and share my 2 cents. God bless U all!
-a

[burien1]

Welcome back, Aaron !

[Abiding in His Word]

So good to hear from you, aaron! Hope you are doing well!

[mark s]

I seriously doubt you will find anyone more staunchly opposed to legalism in the NT covenant than I am. No, I'm not the only one, but I am one.

That being said, daffodyllady puts it very well in my opinion in speaking about sharing with others, and not laying up our treasures on earth.

I know many people in the church, so far as I know Christians, who seem much more in love with their things than with their brothers and sisters. Yes, these things are ours, to do with what we choose. No, I do not judge others, its between them and their Lord.

But it remains that there is much disparity, and those who are side by side who have great excess, and those who have none.

This is something I myself need to give greater consideration too. It may be that I will need to give more than consideration.

The Bible's commandments to us are not a new Law. They they describe a way of life. Are we in that Way?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

The Bible's commandments to us are not a new Law. They they describe a way of life.

Thanks for your post, mark!

I don't think anyone would disagree that we are to share with the less fortunate. Many assume that's happening through the church we attend and the contributions freely given. But that's another subject.

My question is what are the commandments in the NT outside of the two greatest ones Jesus and Paul mention regarding our relationship to God and neighbor. I agree that the NT commandments are not a "new law," but the fact remains that they are often presented in that manner; i.e. a legalistic fashion. But it's strange that there doesn't seem to be a clear list of those commandments and when asked for them, none are forthcoming. Obey...obey...obey is the mantra. Does this not sound like a legalistic reflection of the NT?

Is this a command?

Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. Rom_12:15

Is the "Great Commission" a command to go, teach, baptize, etc.?

What commandments in the NT are we to obey?

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15

.... Therefore, confess your sins to one another....Jas 5:16

I'm not trying to be difficult in my question, but without some clarification, how are we to know what to obey? And if the answer is "the whole NT." doesn't that make it a book of laws much like the OT? Hope someone understands the reason for my concern in this area.

Saying that the NT is a "way of life" seems to be just another way of saying "obey everything." No?

[aaron]

I'm not trying to be difficult in my question, but without some clarification, how are we to know what to obey?

Maybe finishing your thought would help bring more clarity. How about:
how are we to know what to obey in order to be saved?
how are we to know what to obey to honor the Lord with our increase?

Or maybe looking at exactly what a commandment is would help as well. I looked up Webster's definition of a command and it mentions 'to dominate as if from an elevated place' and that struck me. If you are Christian then Jesus is in command of your life, He is above no matter what anyway, but I know our human nature wants to be in that high place of authority, calling the shots.

Another issue I struggle with is that I want a clear cut list to follow so that I can know I am right with God and that I have His favor. Yet I find that I need to seek Him to get answers in every area of life ... and something tells me He wants it that way, He loves our fellowship and need for Him.

We all know that we are supposed to rest on the sabbath. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." Yet in the Gospels Jesus did not honor the sabbath as the scribes and pharisees thought He should have, He healed people, performed His ministry .. you could say He did not rest on the sabbath. Yet He is the Living Word of God.

To me, it isn't about resting on Saturday or Sunday or even at all. I want a list of rules, but I find direction from the Word and through the Holy Spirit in prayer, for every circumstance. "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." -Jer. 29

I just don't believe there's a list of commandments in the NT to obey to the letter except the two you already mentioned Abiding.
"...But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[d] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[e] 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Perhaps His last words are the most important: "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (emphasis mine)

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. -John 14:21

[mark s]

Hi Abiding,

I understand your question and share your concern. I only have a moment or two, but in a nutshell, I think these things describe the sorts of things Love does, and we are to live love.

It's not keeping rules, its loving others, but these imperatives help me to know when I am and am not living love.

I hope that helps clarify, and I hope I have some more time later to expand upon this.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[daffodyllady]

And then, there are times like today...

I gently told a sewing customer that I felt uncomfortable working on a dramatically skimpily-cut prom dress. It just didn't sit well in my conscience.

I was judged to be judgmental. There was anger directed at my tender conscience. From staunch Christians, nonetheless!

I did not pass judgment on them for wearing it. I was grieved in my spirit at the lasciviousness of the style, and was thankful they didn't hold me to my agreement to adjust it for them.

Now, who was being legalistic?
Was it not the one passing judgment on the one who has a more tender conscience?

It seemed to me that those Christians who were judging me for being legalistic had a law that I had violated: "Thou shalt not have any standards holding one manner of dress to be more suitable than another manner. If thou dost deem any clothing to be immodest, thou dost trample on the freedom all Christians have in Christ." I had violated their law.

They were legalistically judgmental against what they judged to be legalism!

In my understanding, the freedom we have in Christ does not free us to do things that may be offensive to others, but rather frees us from the bondage of the flesh, so that we no longer are in bondage to sin.

After all, isn't Paul very clear about how to give room for one who does not allow as much license as our personal standards allow? "Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other."

[mark s]

daffodyllady,

[daffodyllady]

Thanks, Mark, that does help.

[Abiding in His Word]

It's not keeping rules, its loving others, but these imperatives help me to know when I am and am not living love.

I hope that helps clarify.....

Hi Mark,

I appreciate your reply, but I've heard you use the word imperative in describing the Greek meaning of a word that implies it's a "non-negotiable." So, I'm no further ahead in the sense that the words imperatives, directives, laws, rules, commands all imply the same thing. Non-negotiables are commandments. And some Christians delight in posting lists of commands that nearly rival the 613 of the OT.

Here's Webster's definition of imperative:

Definition of IMPERATIVE

1: the grammatical mood that expresses the will to influence the behavior of another or a verb form or verbal phrase expressing it
2: something that is imperative: as
a: command, order
b: rule, guide
c: an obligatory act or duty
d: an obligatory judgment or proposition

Now, the definition of the word "guide" is a tad different in that it implies a general directing or instruction, but at the same time doesn't reflect a law or command.

Definition of GUIDE

transitive verb

1: to act as a guide to : direct in a way or course
2 a: to direct, supervise, or influence usually to a particular end
b: to superintend the training or instruction of

.....but in a nutshell, I think these things describe the sorts of things Love does, and we are to live love.

I agree. So then Jesus and Paul were right! And if believers' actions are based on love on both God and neighbor, they will exhibit the fruit of the spirit which flows from the new birth and infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 22:37 And He said to him, " 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Mat 22:39 "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mat 22:40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Having said that and hopefully defined commands, imperatives, directives, etc..... when Paul tells the Corinthians, for example, to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, and especially the gift of prophecy, is he presenting them with a choice to earnestly desire prophecy (if they/we want to) or not?

[mark s]

Yes, I think we have the choice.

There is our salvation, simply believing in Jesus to be our Lord and Savior, and there is our fruitfulness. God works in us to will and to do His good pleasure, but it still remains for us to cooperate, or to be dragged along.

God doesn't force us, but He tells us what we are to do. He leaves it to us to either do it or not, and these things are not compulsory as the Law was. He who kept the law would live. We live through faith in Jesus Christ.

Take giving, for instance. We're told to share with others, but we're also told that our giving is not to be by compulsion. God is not forcing you to give.

The fact is, under the covenant of Law, Israel received blessings for obedience. Under the New Covenant, we receive our blessings in Christ.

I called them "imperatives", and, you saw right through me. I was simply avoiding the word "command". But while they are in a command voice, I think there is the presupposition that we are not being compelled to do them, as though this were our new Law.

One thing to point out, Jesus lived and taught under the Old Covenant, which was in effect until His death.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

I called them "imperatives", and, you saw right through me. I was simply avoiding the word "command". But while they are in a command voice, I think there is the presupposition that we are not being compelled to do them, as though this were our new Law.

When we function in love, everything falls into place. Everything we say and do flows naturally from "being" a new creature and "being" filled. Notice Paul doesn't say (1 Cor. 13) , "You must have love that is patient and kind." He doesn't say, "You must have the kind of love that doesn't seek it's own or you must not allow yourself to be provoked, etc." He doesn't say it that way because we already have the kind of agape love that is patient, kind, is not arrogant, etc. It's the way true, born again, spirit-filled believer and it's exhibited in our daily walk.

Paul doesn't say (Gal. 5) that we must have fruit of the spirit. He says the fruit is..... It just is!

Jesus doesn't say "you must be the light of the world." He said, "you are....." We just are the light of the world. We just are salt. The salt and light are exhibited in our daily walk as a direct result of the new birth and the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

We can't take credit for having agape love; for being salt or for being light. We can't earn or produce the virtue that separates us from the world. That's why His burden is light and we find rest for our souls. We are free of oppressive, legalistic, heavy-laden, burdens, laws, rituals, and commandments imposed on us by those who want to weigh us down as the Pharisees did. I don't know that they weren't well-meaning in their efforts to impose rules, regulations, etc., but they were operating under the premise that the OT law superseded the work of Christ.

That's why there are so many warnings in the NT about false teachers who would (intentionally or inadvertently) change the focus and intent of the "good news."

I suggest that if we find ourselves feeling unworthy, guilty, shamed, depressed or oppressed, frustrated, etc. rather than full of joy, peace, and righteousness, we are operating under a performance-based, works-focused gospel in which commands, rules, rituals, and regulations are emphasized in direct contrast to grace, mercy, and love as well as the priesthood of all believers.

[daffodyllady]

I suggest that if we find ourselves feeling unworthy, guilty, shamed, depressed or oppressed, frustrated, etc. rather than full of joy, peace, and righteousness, we are operating under a performance-based, works-focused gospel in which commands, rules, rituals, and regulations are emphasized in direct contrast to grace, mercy, and love as well as the priesthood of all believers.

That may be one possibility...

And then perhaps there is also a possibility that if our conscience is bothered by guilt, we just might be guilty of something!

Are you suggesting that every time a Christian feels any negative feeling, he needs to drown it out with shouts of praise?

Is there absolutely no room for the Holy Spirit to make us feel guilty or ashamed if we have done something wrong? Paul makes it clear that there are two kinds of guilt: the worldly kind, and the godly kind.

2Co 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner...
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Guilt from God points to definite sin, so we can repent of it. It is not a vague feeling of depression.

However, if a christian refuses to acknowledge a sin that the Holy Spirit is nudging him about, the feeling of guilt can become systemic, spreading into depression and defeatedness. I have known Christians who refused to acknowledge open sin, who battled depression for years, until they deliberately turned their backs on the truth. Suddenly, they felt complete relief! Of course, this was not because they got right with God! Nor was it because they finally came to the truth! It was because they had stomped on their conscience until it stopped screaming at them. Strangely, these folks feel at peace with God. What a deception!

Therefore, if we feel a prick in our conscience about a specific matter, and we run roughshod over it, refusing to accept any guilt over it, we just might be ignoring the Holy Spirit trying to correct us.

Remember this strong warning written to born-again believers:

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence (faith) stedfast unto the end;

I maintain that as long as we are human, we will sometimes disobey God, and at that point, we will need to repent.

If we reject all feelings of guilt, then we reject the working of the Spirit in us.

Yes, I know where you are coming from. And I agree with the half of the coin you are looking at. But I am pointing to the opposite side of the coin. You have to acknowledge the balance of Truth, or else it leads into false doctrine.

[mark s]

I think we need to let these feelings of guilt, depression, anger (the unrighteous variety), things like these, let them do their work in letting us know we've gotten onto the wrong direction, into the flesh (which always only sins).

Let Godly sorrow do its work, as this is coming back to the walk in the Spirit, sorrowing over the lost time, lost opportunities, for fruit in others, for eternal reward for them and ourselves.

These feelings having done their work, we are returned to the fruitful walk of new life in Christ.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

However, if a christian refuses to acknowledge a sin that the Holy Spirit is nudging him about, the feeling of guilt can become systemic, spreading into depression and defeatedness.

How would we know whether another is refusing to acknowledge a sin that the Holy Spirit is nudging him about? How would this information be made available to others?

I have known Christians who refused to acknowledge open sin ....

Without names, would you please say what "open" sin these Christians were guilty of? How did others become aware of these sins?

who battled depression for years, until they deliberately turned their backs on the truth.

Did these Christians disclose that they had turned their backs on the truth?

Suddenly, they felt complete relief! Of course, this was not because they got right with God!

Suddenly? Are you sure? Could it be it simply took longer than others thought it should take for their conviction?

Nor was it because they finally came to the truth! It was because they had stomped on their conscience until it stopped screaming at them.

How could you possibly know that another is stomping on their conscience? How could you possibly know it was screaming at them?

Strangely, these folks feel at peace with God. What a deception!

The deception, as I see it, daffodyllady, is that one sinner might be annoyed with another sinner because they didn't react within another's timeframe and expectations. Without knowing the specific circumstances, it's entirely possible that one person does not see something as sin as another does. Scripture is replete with sinners with no indication that conviction took place within a prescribed manner or timeframe.

Do you think that believer's sin negated his salvation? I ask that because you said:

I maintain that as long as we are human, we will sometimes disobey God, and at that point, we will need to repent.

I don't want this thread to turn into a OSAS discussion, but the good news of the gospel is that Jesus died for all of our sins. It's the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin in one's life, both intentional and unintentional, and He is perfectly able to turn a prodigal person back to the Good Shepherd without our help.

I've posted this several times on the board, so I'll not do so again in detail, but know this. There may be a believer who has need of the Holy Spirit's work in 10 areas of their life. While the Holy Spirit is working on #5 (which He determines is the most important) we are annoyed that the believer isn't seeing that #2 sin. Then when the #5 sin is gone, the Holy Spirit begins on #1 while we are focusing on #3! How callous and rebellious of that believer to not see his sin and ignore his conscience!! No wonder he's miserable!

We are called to love one another regardless of their decision to repent or not. We can't control the decisions others make. We can let them know we love them and then we can remember them in our prayers.

I maintain that as long as we are human, we will sometimes disobey God, and at that point, we will need to repent.

What commands might we sometimes disobey? That's the question I posed in the OP.

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi Mark,

.....sorrowing over the lost time, lost opportunities....

I'm not sure I believe this exactly the same way you have expressed. I think every single minute and experience of our lives are teaching us valuable lessons. Those learned lessons strengthens our faith and our resolution to not go there again is firmly entrenched in our walk with the Lord. We may make the same mistake several times, in fact, many times possibly. But just as a child falls many times while learning to walk and eventually is able to stand without stumbling or falling, we likewise grow from each attempt and subsequent failure. Maturity is a growth process....one step at an appointed time.

Just keep on keepin' on. The Lord is able to bring the opportunities in His perfect time.

[mark s]

HI Abiding,

Not that I disagree with what you are saying, what I am saying is that I am saddened sometimes when I realize I've just spent time that could have been used for serving the Lord to allow my flesh to serve it's wants instead. To me, that's such a waste! Its good if we can take away a renewed determination to avoid such.

I am saddened sometimes when I realize that instead of building up, I've torn down.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

Its good if we can take away a renewed determination to avoid such.

Only the power of God can change the condition of the heart. We express sadness at the weakness of our flesh, but we don't stay in the state of sorrow. Under the new covenant, sins and lawless deeds are remembered no more. If God doesn't remember them, we are free to live apart from guilt, shame, and regret. Paul is a perfect example of one who continued to press on to the finish! Even though he was set aside from his mother's womb, he persecuted Christians "beyond measure." I have no doubt that God picked the perfect time for Paul's conversion. Why did God not convert Paul before his slaughter of God's people? We'll never know for sure. But I am fairly certain in my mind that all of life's experiences shape us for the ministry we are given. With that in mind, we have the faith in Him to move forward and leave the past behind.



You are a special vessel, Mark, "a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

[daffodyllady]

Well, Abiding, one person I have in mind is a family member who after years of struggle against sinful thought patterns, chose to live in continual fornication with serial relationships... choosing to "just go with it", becoming a part-time drunk, and suddenly thinking he is far superior spiritually to those who weep over his self-destructive behavior. If you only listened to his talk, and didn't know his walk, you would think he is a great man of God.

Another one that comes to mind is a man who at one time repented from abusing his wife and children, but then gave in to the temptation to become bitter against those he thought did him wrong. He became a worse abuser than ever before, forcing his wife to leave in fear for her life. This man thinks he is right with God--Oh yes, he will tell you so, for hours on end!

Another family member (I have 8 sisters and brothers, and most of us have large families, with grandchildren!) is in prison for sexually abusing every one of his 8 children. He tells the prison psychologist that he was doing his victims a favor, and that they wanted it. He said he fought it for a long time, thinking it would be wrong. But after a while, he realized that it was a good thing to do. Yes, he says he is right with God.

Another man in the family felt guilty at first when choosing to leave his wife and family for personal freedom's sake. When the deed was finally done, however, he said he felt so much happier, that he just knew that it had been the right thing to do after all, even though it seemed wrong at the time.

Every one of these people were professing Christians while privately starting down the path of their sin. Every one of them said later that they felt guilty at first. And every one of them now thinks that guilt was wrong, because they found they were actually free in Christ to do what they felt they had to do.

[mark s]

Under the new covenant, sins and lawless deeds are remembered no more. If God doesn't remember them, we are free to live apart from guilt, shame, and regret.

Hi Abiding,

This is, to me, one of the most amazing truths of all!

Paul was, in his own words, the foremost of sinners, thinking of his previous life. And he was the teacher of God's amazing grace. He knew of which he spoke!

And thank you for your encouraging words!



Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

Now, who was being legalistic?
Was it not the one passing judgment on the one who has a more tender conscience?

Hello daffodyllady.

I sense through your posts that you have focused on one's conscience. You did mention “more tender” as a description of your own conscience.

Also in relating the circumstances of certain family members and acquaintances, it seems that at the heart of your discomfort is their apparent violation of their consciences. (btw, I also have 8 brothers and sisters.)

The subject of conscience probably deserves a thread of it's own, but for now, in response to your post, I will share my thoughts. There are 27 mentions of the word conscience in the NT. Anyone interested can look them up for their context, but I list them here for convenience.

[NASB] Act_23:1; Act_24:16; Rom_2:15; Rom_9:1; Rom_13:5; 1Co_8:7; 1Co_8:10; 1Co_8:12; 1Co_10:25; 1Co_10:27; 1Co_10:28; 1Co_10:29; 2Co_1:12; 2Co_4:2; 1Ti_1:5; 1Ti_1:19; 1Ti_3:9; 1Ti_4:2; 2Ti_1:3; Tit_1:15; Heb_9:9; Heb_9:14; Heb_10:22; Heb_13:18; 1Pe_2:19; 1Pe_3:16; 1Pe_3:21

I found several verses particularly interesting and informative in understanding the impact of the conscience on one's walk.

The first was Paul's statement in Acts 23:1 that he “lived his life with a perfectly good conscience before God up to this day." How could this be? How could he say such a thing having murdered countless numbers of people? Could it possibly be that in his zeal as a Roman soldier, he saw it as his duty to eliminate those who seemingly opposed the governing authorities?

Second, was his confession that “he also does his best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.” Acts 24:16 Paul sincerely tries to use his conscience as his guide in matters concerning his conduct.

Third, Paul correctly evaluates the back-and-forth action involved with one's conscience and their thinking process. He says (regarding the gentiles) “their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or defending them.” I have no doubt that this accusing and/or defending process occurs in believers as well until one or the other becomes well established.


And last, but imho not least, is verse Heb. 10:22 where we learn that we have full confidence in drawing near to God because we are cleansed from an “evil” conscience. The meaning of the word evil indicates a conscience that is diseased, defective having been influenced over time by a variety of causes.

I think you will agree that we are a work in progress in that we are not what we were, and not yet what we will be. The Holy Spirit develops and matures our conscience and teaches us a sensitivity to the conscience of others. In reality, we are not bound by the conscience of others, but are encouraged to be sensitive to them so they will not be offended by our exercising our freedom in various areas.

While it's true that if we don't cooperate with the work of the Holy Spirit in this regard, the conscience could ultimately become seared and rigid and allow delusion, deceit and hypocrisy to become our end. On the other hand, it's equally true that we can be confident that “He who began a good work in us will perfect it.”

In closing, I feel strongly that we cannot judge the work taking place in another's life as if there is none being accomplished. Nor can we compare our conscience, standard, or expectations to another's. Faith in Him enables us to be assured that just as He was able to change our hardened hearts, He is able and willing to change others as well. We cannot want more for others than they want for themselves. In that we can rest.

I hope you can find some words of comfort here in knowing the Good Shepherd cares for those in your family and ardently seeks those sheep who are lost to bring them back to the fold.

[Sonbeam]

There may be a believer who has need of the Holy Spirit's work in 10 areas of their life. While the Holy Spirit is working on #5 (which He determines is the most important) we are annoyed that the believer isn't seeing that #2 sin. Then when the #5 sin is gone, the Holy Spirit begins on #1 while we are focusing on #3!

In closing, I feel strongly that we cannot judge the work taking place in another's life as if there is none being accomplished. Nor can we compare our conscience, standard, or expectations to another's. Faith in Him enables us to be assured that just as He was able to change our hardened hearts, He is able and willing to change others as well.

Dear Abiding,

As I read your posts on this thread, I found myself saying Amen! mentally to many of your comments. They would be too many to cite here, so I'll just quote the above two which seem to go very well together.



sonbeam

[keithareilly]

Hi Abiding,

Read this a while back and have been letting it stew.

When I was young and legalistic, I found the following verses helpful.
John 6:28,29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

To believe something is to act upon it.
If I believe I will be killed if I jump off a building, I won't jump.
If I believe I will be killed if I don't move my car from over the railroad tracks, I move my car from the tracks.
Faith without works is dead; therefore, if I don't move my car from the tracks, I am dead (one way or another).
Belief must result in choices, actions, or restraint from actions.
Concentrate on believing and the rest will follow.

Mostly, I think many deny or are unaware the gospel of Christs includes the power to overcome sin.
When we deny (choose not to believe) this power, we consider ourselves still enslaved to sin; therefore, we continue to sin.
The good news of the gospel is not just that we have a God who forgives us our past, present, and future sins; but also, we have a God who provided us the power to master the sin that reigned in our bodies so that God can reign in our bodies instead. When we talk about being saved, from what are we saved? It is from judgement and the enslavement to sin that we are saved. Since sin receives it power from the Law, we have to remember that as Christians we are not under the law of sin and death but under the law of grace and life. First wash the inside of the cup and the outside will be clean also. This means worry about believing in Christ then we will behave as if we believe he died in our stead and set us free from the enslavement to sin. We should each watch our own actions to see how we are doing about cleaning the inside of the cup. When we see our own or others sin, we can know we or they have not yet finished cleaning the inside. This is how we work out our salvation. We work on cleaning the inside so the outside will be clean also.

Again, if we had faith the size of a mustard seed we could say to a mountain be lifted up and cast into the sea. Believing in Christ is really a lot of work. I don't mean accepting he was real. I mean believing what he taught and acting upon it. The will of God is to believe and that is a lot of work. How many of us can say to a mountain be removed from your place? See how hard it really is to believe what Christ taught? Having faith as small as a mustard seed is really quite difficult. So we are told to work on believing. Thus the prayer "help my unbelief" by the father of the possessed boy and Jesus's response that much prayer is required.

I repeat: John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Here we see it quite clear: Believing is the work we are to be struggling to accomplish.



Keith

[WOODHENOT3]

A very interesting post!
I have ministered so many "Christians" who thinks they love God.
The sad part is, they refused to repent with forgiveness or wanting to grow in Christ.
They rather rely more on man than God. They're happy in their warm fuzzy club they attend every Sunday.

Speaking of love, if you really love Jesus, you'd do anything for him, right?

How many Christians can you find they'll actually do anything for Jesus?
I have asked many Christians if they have ever witnessed or done anything for God since they've become a Christian. All I hear is, "oh their church does that....their pastor does that......etc..." I took noticed that a lot of Christians are so hooked up as being religious instead of being of the Holy Spirit. Most Christians I know are just SELFISH, everything is for themselves.

Do you love your neighbor?
Do you offer help, things they need?
Do you do things for the Lord when you don't want to?
Most Christians go to church because of the music, food, edification, etc..
But, do they go help, feed, clothe and to witness the poor?
Most Christians I know sends money to the soup kitchen thinking they will be blessed, but I always say to them, "WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? "....I would feel selfish to send money and not being there for the poor....
sending money to the poor is not ministry......
We have to ask ourselves, how much do we love the Lord?, if you love him so much, you would not be a sitting duck....

T

[keithareilly]

WouldHeNot3

Do not be so harsh on our brothers and sisters. We tend to look at the apostles and think everyone should follow their examples. But not everyone is fitted for every work. I know for what I am fitted and it is not evangelism. Yet, an evangelist could not do what I do either. It is not our position to judge the faith of another. Is the man who goes to work everyday supporting his family not doing God's will? Is he not doing a good thing? God knows his own and he gives us what we need, whether we like what we need or not. If there is one thing I have learned, it is that God provides what I need, not necessarily what I want or think I need. Trust that God will complete his work in each of us in his time and that he has a plan and no one can thwart that plan. I know of very few pople whose lives have turned out as they planned. I can only conclude that God's plan will be accomplished. After all, our own righteousness is as filthy rags, mine , yours, everyone's. So when you see filthy rags it is because you are not seeing others as justified by faith. Perhaps yours are less dirty. I have learned that mine are not.

Keith

[WOODHENOT3]

Kevin,
I know what you're saying, but I don't believe I was being harsh....but some Christians do need "an awakening"... I was just sharing with all the people I have experienced in many churches. You'd be surprise how many selfish Christians you can find and sometime when you share with someone, you try to encourage them to be generous, etc.....but the truth is, there is a (I believe) large number of selfish Christians.....there are many ways people can be selfish. In my experience, I have seen the unfortunate in churches who Christian hardly ever invite over their home for the holiday for their selfish reasons, I have asked many Christians, why they have not bother asking the unfortunate to their home...you hear, "well, my family is coming excuse or we don't have enough for them, etc....there was this pastor who I spoke with about having Thanksgiving at his house for the unfortunate, he told me he doesn't want to put up with them, that is selfish, of course I invited the 10 people over and gave them a great feast. ...why is it so hard to find generous Christians? Every time I ask Christians for help, most of them always ask, "how much?"
My own neighbor who is not a Christian comes over to help me....so when someone in need ask you for help, this could be very well a message coming from God to help that person and many people I know refuse to help for selfish reasons.....

Example: I love watching football, and a neighbor stop by my house to ask me if I can trim his bushes. I decided to do something for God and helped this neighbor trim his bushes. He was all excited and happy. If I didn't help this neighbor because of football, then I would think I am very selfish....I did it because I love God. I obeyed him....
I'm not biting anybody on this board, but reality is, many Christians I believe are very selfish and they don't know it yet and yes there are some awesome generous Christians out there as well....

[keithareilly]

WoodHeNot3,

Remember Ananias and Sapphira? The money the gave was theirs to keep or give away. The were not judged for keeping what was theirs or giving away what was theirs. They were judged for lying, not being truthful about what they were doing. They had succumb to Christian peer pressure.

Scriptures are clear. They had the right to use what was theirs as they saw fit without judgement from others.

Keith

Editted to add...

By the way, it is not the actions of those you describe I am addressing. It is the temptation to look at others and say to oneself, I am better than them because I do such and such. Love builds up, it does not puff up. It is not for the vessel to ask ther potter, why did you make me thus? It is not for us to question God's pupose for others or even ourself. We must be confident he made each able to accomplish that for which he created us. Or again, for every fighting man in the army another seven people are needed to support him. Most of us are support personell.

Keith

[WOODHENOT3]

Keith,

It is the temptation to look at others and say to oneself, I am better than them because I do such and such.

I believe you missed the point, that was not my intention.
All I am saying there is many Christians who are selfish not because of what I have done for Christ and comparing my testimonies to theirs.. I have seen the HS work on others and they refused to change, grow in Christ and so on...where do you think they end up?. I am talking about when other Christians who has opportunities to do something for the Lord and refuses it.
And yes, you can know what God is doing in others your with....
Another example: I was with one Christian guy walking down the road, a poor man asked this Christian guy for some money because he was starving, he said, "no"...the next thing you know, I saw the Christian guy open his wallet with many hundred dollar bills and having lunch. I asked him, "why couldn't you spare some change for the poor guy, he said, because it is his hard working money and it's his."....I believe this is selfishness in his part, very clear! What would Jesus do? He would certainly help the poor guy....Everything we have is owned by God, God told him to help the poor guy and he did not....this Christian guy thinks he loves God, but I think he loves his money more.....I tried to teach him what God was doing, but he is too caught up with all the excuses.....

[daffodyllady]

So, Woody... what did you do to help that poor fellow?

[keithareilly]

Woody,

Sometimes, Christians follow the bible precedent of not letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing.
Frequently, this may lead to incorrect judgements about anothers behaviour. Some Christians do not do their acts in front of others; they do them in secret where God sees not men. You have know idea how these people behave when you are not looking.

Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

Good point, Keith.

[Mrs. B]

Commandments in the NT


Paul says.......I die daily......

Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself....
we must die to live....be a living sacrifice

let go and let God have His Way....

to fulfill all the Law and the Prophets, Commandments is to Love your neighbour as yourself......I die daily
our lives are to be a Living Sacrifice....

the old man says, but what about me? we are to be a living sacrifice....total surrender to Him...Put Jesus First by loving others more then you do yourself...I die daily

Mrs. B

[keithareilly]

The commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself, NOT more than yourself!

Be merciful to your neighbor as you are merciful to yourself.

Christ told us there are those who would say to him, when were you hungry and without clothing?
And He will say when you did not do this for the least you did not do this for me.
He also walked away from the crouds of people that followed him only because he fed them.

Keith

[daffodyllady]

If you love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, then your affections will be set on things above, and not on things of the earth.
What you want for yourself will change. You will be focused on eternity, instead of the here and now.
Keeping that in mind, how will we love ourselves, and others as ourselves?

We will be learning to be like Christ, who, while we were yet his enemies, laid down his life for us. We will care deeply about every soul we come in contact with: wanting them to go to heaven as badly as we want to get there ourselves!

When all that is in perspective, how we would yearn to share our last bowl of soup and rather to go hungry, in order to be able to share the gospel with some lost soul!

[Sanderson]

Matt 6
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

[WOODHENOT3]

So, Woody... what did you do to help that poor fellow?

Should I even bother answering?
I took him out to lunch and shared the gospel with him.

Sometimes, Christians follow the bible precedent of not letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing.
Frequently, this may lead to incorrect judgements about anothers behaviour. Some Christians do not do their acts in front of others; they do them in secret where God sees not men. You have know idea how these people behave when you are not looking.

Keith,
Did Jesus in front of many people show miracles, signs, etc? Everybody knew...it wasn't a secret...
Did the disciples in pairs worked together in their ministry?
Certain things do happen in front of people for certain reasons as long there is no pride but to do what you have to do through the HS. Wasn't Jesus accused for working on Sabbath?
So, you'd rather not feed a hungry person because you are worried about who might be watching you?
The poor person was a great opportunity to feed and share the gospel with and I know it was God that led this Christian guy and I to this person, except the Christian guy was too good to help.......
When you meet a poor person and to do it humbly, you do not need to give him money in front of people(showing your right hand....), you take him to a restaurant or wherever and feed him...be his friend, etc...talk to him....and so on...

Woody

[Abiding in His Word]

So, you'd rather not feed a hungry person because you are worried about who might be watching you?

Hello Woody,

I think the point Keith was making (and I agree with) is that you can't assume that some aren't giving and doing acts of kindness just because you don't see them doing so. Some acts are done openly and others quietly.

Many were impressed several days ago by the picture of a police officer providing a pair of boots for a homeless man out on the street. That officer didn't know someone was watching at a distance and snapped a photo of that act of kindness taking place.

I read last week about the gentleman who insists on remaining anonymous as he gives out hundred dollar bills during the Christmas season.

We just don't know who's doing what so it's wrong to arrive at a conclusion without the facts.

[WOODHENOT3]

Hello Abiding,
Just to let you know that I didn't assume that Christian guy....I asked him straight out afterwards, "why"....I had the facts... just because everybody is a Christian doesn't mean they are all generous. We all learn from our mistakes and I knew he was being selfish in his part because God was testing him. I was showing him what God was doing which was very crystal clear. How else is the Christian guy going to learn if I or anyone else didn't show or encourage him how to be generous?
God loves a generous heart....I understand when some people has a purpose of not giving and we are to be careful to judge, but this one was an obvious one for me.....there is some Christians who are selfish and has to learn to be generous......they make a lot of excuses because they don't want to change....I have heard leaders in churches talking in their offices and said, "I got every penny out of this person".....are you going to say he's not selfish?
I know that some people who are young in Christ and it takes time, etc......but, some you can judge and know their fruits....I had an anger problem before I was saved, when got saved a friend was correcting me how to control my anger and so on....thanks God he shared it with me, learned something because someone pointed it out....get my point?

Blessings, Woody

[WOODHENOT3]

Philippians 2:3
Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.

[WOODHENOT3]

I think the point Keith was making (and I agree with) is that you can't assume that some aren't giving and doing acts of kindness just because you don't see them doing so. Some acts are done openly and others quietly.

Oh Abiding, I didn't make myself clear maybe, but I was referring to all my ministeries that I have experienced with.....so, I am not speaking exactly in general terms...but I do agree we have to be careful....we can't judge a book cover without reading it....yeaaa....ha....Peace...
Woody

[daffodyllady]

I am glad to hear that you aren't ALL criticism, Woody.

Perhaps your good works of taking the poor man out to eat and sharing the gospel will be enough to outweigh the critical spirit you (may) have toward the brother who failed to do so.

Hey, just my two cents here--
I think you would be better off if you could just cast your burden on the Lord, about those who call themselves Christians, but who don't do what they ought to do. After all, criticizing them doesn't help the kingdom at all. All it does, is spread acid. Let it go. Don't let it eat at you.

If you can cast it on the Lord, then you can completely let go of the bothered feelings.
After all, they are not your servants. Allow their Lord to do the judging.

It's another facet of humility.

[keithareilly]

Woody,

I assume that most people are like myself; they became Christians because they know who they are they know they need a saviour because they are not able to live up to the standard on their own. it was pointed out to me when I was a new Christian that Christians are some of the worst people, people who know how bad they are and are in need of a saviour.

Christ himself said it is the sick who need a doctor. I have no doubt there are Christians who are still at a place in their walk where they have not yet been made perfect. The bible says we as the church body are to hide our more modest parts and love covers a multitude of sins. Announcing to the world the sin of the brethren, is contrary to my understanding of biblical teaching.

The only people I can minister to here, is viewers. So I try to build up, not tear down. From your zeal for rightiousness I can see that you are not happy when Christians do not live up to the standard and cause the name of Christ to come under criticism. Nevertheless, I encourage you to not condemn the brethren and allow God to move each brother at the rate God moves him. Remember, God is purifying all of us and each of us have our own personal sins and breaking one law means we have broken all laws. Our brethren who are selfish are not worse than me or any other viewer.

In Christ,

Keith