Are we compromising when we offer grace?

[Keeping Alert]

There have been sharp disagreements regarding our response to a sinner. Many here do not believe a sinner can continue to sin and be a born-again Christian. In particular, there has been very intense feelings when that sin happens to be homosexuality. So let's bring it out.

I will tell you what I believe in no uncertain terms - I believe a sincere Christian whatever his sexual orientation is thoroughly saved from the moment he received Christ.

I see no sin too big that God's grace cannot cover. And once grace and forgiveness has been administered, God does not repent of it. Righteousness has been imputed to this man and there is therefore, now no more condemnation (Romans 8:1)

Now my reasoning is this - is God able or not able to administer grace to the vilest sinner? If yes, then dare we do less? If no, then what level of sin will he accept and not accept when he 'chooses' to administer grace? Is repentance required?

Think carefully. Are we all repentant of the sins that so easily besets us? Be honest. When do stand if not for the grace of God.

Now a few passages for your thoughts

Luk 5:36   And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was [taken] out of the new agreeth not with the old.


Luk 5:37   And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.


Luk 5:38   But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.


Luk 5:39   No man also having drunk old [wine] straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

..

Gal 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 2:21   I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:4   Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

That last verse in Gal 5:4 should be read with much meditation.

Now are those who promote grace compromising. Most definitely not. At no time we bring down the standard of the law. At no time we say that homosexuality is right. But what is our message to the world when we throw out and distance homosexuals in our midst? That They must clean up their act before they can come to God?

I say it is a terrible message and a erroneous one - that God's Grace comes with Terms and Conditions. It is Limited for that few who has the will and intelligence to know all the pristine and lofty commandments of God. That God Grace is not really Grace after all but it is a mixture of some effort on our part.

We dare not downplay God's Law but I think there are many who have dishonoured God's Grace. The Grace that was made possible not because of what we can or cannot do, but because of what Jesus Christ had done on the cross for us.

Blessing-in-Christ,
KA

[Jericho]

I will tell you what I believe in no uncertain terms - I believe a sincere Christian whatever his sexual orientation is thoroughly saved from the moment he received Christ.

If that person has truely repented then yes they are saved. But can one continue to be a practicing homosexual and still be a Christian? I say no. That's like one continuing to steal or murder and calling themselves Christian. Repentance is the key here. If they are truly Christian they will repent and put there past behind. If they can not do this it says they love there lifestyle (and there own sinful disires) more than Christ.

[Abiding in His Word]

Many here do not believe a sinner can continue to sin and be a born-again Christian. In particular, there has been very intense feelings when that sin happens to be homosexuality.

Hi Keeping Alert,

I just last week heard this very subject answered this way. "God always makes a distinction between willful defiance and struggling compliance." That says it all for me. Reading through scripture, the difference between willful defiance and struggling compliance and God's reaction to each becomes very clear.

Here's a simple example of willful defiance that I remember from many years ago. A young child stands up in his high chair. His mother tells him to sit down. He continues to stand, staring directly in her eyes. One more time, she tells him sternly to sit down! He finally sits down but says in his mind...."I may be sitting down on the outside, but I'm standing up on the inside."

God knows what's going on in the heart but we don't.

[mark s]

Hi KA,

In a nutshell, this is what I believe. Based on faith in Jesus - and that alone - God justifies us, and regenerates us. This is His desire for our salvation.

Having been born again, we are a new nature, created patterned after God Himself, bearing His nature as we bear our human parents' nature. We have been severed from our old nature, what was condemned, judged, and crucified on the cross.

As we live our lives, at times that old nature will use our body to express and act upon it's desires. At other times, we will, out of our new nature, wrest control of our body away from it's original master, to make it serve a new master, Christ within us.

Whatever the works of the old nature, they are not the works of the new nature. We have been forgiven from those works. They have nothing to do with whether or not we are a child of God.

As we continue to mature in the Lord, we exhibit increasing control over our bodies, demonstrated in our thoughts, attitudes, words, and behaviors. This is the work of God in us, to both make us want to do and be able to do those things that please Him.

And not all sinful behaviors will disappear at once. Some may persist for some time to come. And in fact, the Bible teaches that we will be dealing with sin until we have our heavenly bodies.

But there is something we need to understand about God's grace. God reconciled the world to Himself in Christ's death. Now He's given us the job of serving up that reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:16-20 LITV
(16) So as we now know no one according to flesh, but even if we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we no longer know Him so.
(17) So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!
(18) And all things are from God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation,
(19) as, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not charging their deviations to them, and having put the Word of reconciliation in us.
(20) Then on behalf of Christ, we are ambassadors, as God is exhorting through us, we beseech on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God.

Even when we were His enemies, God reconciled us to Himself. God stopped counting our sins against us long before we repented, believed, and were born again. And having received the reconciliation, we have been set free from sin, the flesh, and the Law.

What is it exactly that we are offering to others?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

I would add that after having been regenerated, even what we might call "willful defiance" is still a work of the flesh, and has been forgiven, having been paid for at the cross, and does not bring condemnation to the child of God.

It happens that I gave a message on this topic in my church a couple of weeks ago.

You can hear it here:

http://www.calvaryanaheim.org/anaheim2/ ... %20mp3.mp3

Love in Christ,
Mark

[HighBeams]

I was saved as a child (about 10 yrs. old), but I did not give over Lordship of my life to Him until I was around 22. There is a big difference between salvation knowledge and knowing Him in a relationship.

I agree with Mark and Abiding. We all have besetting sins that will plague us for our entire lives here on earth. We may minimize the damage some as we learn to submit more to the Lord in these areas, but no one gets to heaven in a sinless state.

Falling into those sins does not negate our salvation. It does, however, rob us of our joy in Him, our effectiveness in His kingdom, and our rewards in heaven.

[slick]

Hello KA & Gang,

Very Good Points and thoughts to consider, specially when we live in a society and world culture that has become tolerant and immune to anything called sin. The "GARDEN LIE" & "ADAM & EVE Response" has become prevailing cry in today's world..."IT'S NOT MY FAULT.... " Homosexuals...."I WAS BORN THIS WAY" .....Alcoholics/drug users....."I AM A PRODUCT OF MY UPBRINGING....AND TERRIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES...." pedophiles....."MY MOTHER AND FATHER DIDN'T LOVE ME PROPERLY...." on and on it goes. These are just seductive lies that the serpent whispered subtly to EVE when she "FIRST COVETED THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE to help prompt her action.

You see the act of eating the fruit on the tree WAS NOT THE SIN itself it as JAMES records in His book EVE being carried away by...

"Jam 1:14 (NASB) — But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Jam 1:15 (NASB) — Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin *is accomplished, it brings forth death.

Repentance is not a changing course of ACTION it is a changing course of THOUGHT.......the flesh produces action....the soul produces MOTIVE and THOUGHT ...and it is the MOTIVE that GOD judges.it is the action that WE can and are to JUDGE.....Over and over again, we see JESUS and the Apostles reaching into the "HEARTS" of those they are trying to reach , because they know that with a true REPENTANT HEART change the actions will eventually follow.though the struggle may have different lengths of duration depending on the depth of involvement emotional or physical in the sin.

So, unless, we see ANY sin as GOD sees it....though we may cease to act upon our own lust for a time, we WILL fall back into it eventually. However, If We do see SIN as God sees it it DOES NOT necessarily mean that we wont struggle or slip at times but we will NEVER mentally accept or acquiesce to the SIN that besets us we WILL ALWAYS recognize it as being sin.......that struggle between the Repentant Heart (REDEEMED) and the FLESH will be wrought our entire lives to some degree or another and we must take care to look closely at ourselves, and those we consider brothers and sisters as to the struggle that takes place when falling into sin or temptation. DO WE ourselves, justify, simplify or callously disregard scripture , to partake of of the LUST of our hearts or do we agonize each and every time we fall into the sin that besets us?

The church and Christians have fallen prey to the "WORLD VIEW" LIE that we can not judge.........and that we must tolerate, accept and embrace, those who simply claim they have been redeemed! we have become weak in our knowledge of scripture, and have grown lazy in our studies and have allowed ourselves to be led astray by following WOLVES for so long and relying on others to teach and study GODS word for US instead of digging into it on our own.

ERROR is uncovered by studying TRUTH and in today's world culture and unfortunately in most churches there has become a blending of ideas that has muddied GODS WORD so that truth can not be found! The ONLY resource or solution is to get back into GODS WORD ourselves and PRAY for wisdom and understanding and not to allow ourselves to be blindly led or compromised with watered down drivel.

A Saved person can and does and will continue to FALL and struggle with SIN, but their heart attitude will always be toward becoming like CHRIST and desiring to be free from whatever struggle they/we are up against.Conversely a person who attempts to JUSTIFY, SIMPLIFY, OR GLOSS OVER, blatant sin without remorse IS NOT SAVED! HOWEVER that being said, it is NEVER....NEVER....NEVER[/color] our job to decide who can or will be or IS saved, but to continue WITH LOVE preaching the GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST and associating ourselves with sinful mankind gently calling ALL to repentance GOD will redeem or restore those WHOM HE has CHOSEN or HAS CHOSE.

GOD-BLESS,

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!
Clarence

[GodsStudent]

When contending becomes cantankerous

Jan Markell, Olive Tree, did this program:

When Contending Becomes Cantankerous
Saturday, June 16, 2012
Jan and her guests, Eric Barger and Jill Martin Rische (daughter of the late Dr. Walter Martin) have an in-studio discussion: All three head "discernment ministries" yet they are troubled by all the sniping, bad-mouthing, character assassinations, and general lack of love being shown. So just how do evangelicals confront doctrinal error? And what is "secondary separation?" Can Christians ever share a platform with one who is known to have serious false doctrine? Are some outfits just being Pharisaical and becoming known for what they attack more than what they build up? These are tough questions because we must "contend for the faith." Apostasy does reign and we cannot always be silent. Can we contend in love or must contending be cantankerous?

The program can be found in current radio archives at her website here:
http://www.olivetreeviews.org/radio

This program, IMO, speaks to the issues going on more in the church than witnessing to an unbeliever, but I thought it was such a great discussion and certainly pertinent to this discussion.

[slick]

Can we contend in love or must contending be cantankerous?

The issue first is.....WHO DETERMINES WHAT IS OR IS NOT CANTANKEROUS? for instance HOMOPHOBIA is a created word to cause ANY opposition to be viewed in a bad light therefore no matter how loving or Biblical ones views are they are seen as cantankerous.this can be said of many other social woes as well. We as Christians specially those with true understanding of the times and culture, and studied in scripture are becoming more and more viewed as "FANATICS" Critical of PROGRESS and CHANGE. We are more and more being seen as the CAUSE of the world woes and troubles.

Culture today because of the strong "post-modern" thought sees any reference to ABSOLUTE truth as a threat to a evolutionary means to mans improving.

It can no longer said that the world view is shifting from a Judeao-Christian ethic but has rather completely transformed into a GOD-LESS society that not only has itself, but also the governing forces behind them.

In short if we choose to be BIBLICAL we will be cantankerous because society has demanded it by their casting off of GOD.

The solution isn't silence or cowardice, nor is it attempting to soften the message by seeker friendly or watered down messages, THAT IS THE ROOT CAUSE of today's christian catastrophe! If we believe GODS word and that HE is primarily LOVE then HIS word is LOVE ALL OF IT.therefore as long as we keep OUR personal opinion out of it and speak only scripture when confronting sin, the argument is against GODS WORD and not us, not matter what light the world believes us to be in.

GOD-BLESS,

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!

[mark s]

We need to reflect God's true love for mankind in our thoughts, feelings, attitudes, so it will come through our words and behaviors.

We've been given Jesus' ministry of reconciling man to God, shall we do what He did not?

Even when Jesus spoke so strongly to the Pharisees, He asked them, How will you escape the fires of hell??? I believe that was an impassioned plea for them to consider, how will they escape???

I don't think Jesus was there to catalog their sins for them, rather, to shake them awake, so that perhaps they could turn and be saved.

What is in our hearts?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

We need to reflect God's true love for mankind in our thoughts, feelings, attitudes, so it will come through our words and behaviors.

We've been given Jesus' ministry of reconciling man to God, shall we do what He did not?

Amen!

I don't think Jesus was there to catalog their sins for them, rather, to shake them awake, so that perhaps they could turn and be saved.

Agreed!

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2Peter 3:9

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1Tim. 2:3-4

[Keeping Alert]

I am truly encouraged by Mark and Abiding. You guys are much more scholarly than me. I would truly encourage all to hear the most marvellous sermon given by Mark (link above)... it is thought provoking to say the least.

But for a more simple illustration, I am reminded of the real incident regarding the woman who was caught in adultery.

We know the story. But what stumps me and perhaps not many realize it, is how Jesus responded to that woman.

Of all those standing there that day, only Jesus could throw the stone at her. Yet he does not.

And this is what he says:

Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. - John 8:11

I would think the natural way most people would answer is "Go and sin no more and I will not condemn thee too."

But as far as the record goes, Jesus does not challenge the woman to confess her sins and force her for repentance.

He just administers grace - NEITHER DO I CONDEMN THEE. The instruction thereafter was to go and sin no more and many have taken it to mean that the grace adminstered was conditional on that she goes and sin no more. Nope, that is not how it was done. The forgiveness and grace imparted was unconditional. Jesus as fully God could have struck her down dead in that instant but he withholds judgement and gives grace. And grace is grace, it is not a malicious double-talk that God will eventually get you. Jesus is not saying - I forgive you now but you will still fry in hell... just you wait, you vile sinner!

"Go and sin no more" is a call from God to everyone. It is not just for the adulterer and the sexual perverts, it is for us all.

It is a call that none of us will fulfill... not this adulterous woman, not the sexual perverts, and not one of us.

In-Christ,
KA

[Abiding in His Word]

I would think the natural way most people would answer is "Go and sin no more and I will not condemn thee too."

But as far as the record goes, Jesus does not challenge the woman to confess her sins and force her for repentance.

This is a very astute observation, Keeping Alert. Interesting that we love to focus on the "sin no more" aspect of this story rather than the compassion Jesus had for the sinner. Also of interest is Jesus protects her from her angry, self-righteous accusers, the Pharisees. The Pharisees generally resented Jesus' compassion toward the despised and rejected and most people were afraid of them because they had great power and influence. In fact, when Jesus healed a blind man (John 9), they threatened that anyone who confessed Jesus as the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. They literally seemed to follow Jesus around to harass and accuse Him as He administered grace, healing, and hope to sinners. The Pharisees remind me of the angry Westboro Baptist church members.

We should, imho, imitate Jesus' approach to sinners in offering grace as you said, Keeping Alert. That doesn't mean we should approve or marginalize sin, but that we focus on the compassion Jesus displayed toward those most in need of the gospel. After all, He died for them. (Romans 5)

That's how I see it.

[daffodyllady]

I have heard it said thusly:

Grace is not an excuse for sin. Rather, grace is God's costly answer to sin.

Therefore, Grace is only for those sins which are repented from.
Grace does not cover those sins which we flippantly want to excuse.

KA. Jesus saw the heart of that woman. He knew whether or not she was repentant. His call to go and sin no more was obviously in relation to the sin she was currently being accused of. To claim that Jesus told her to do something that was impossible for her to do, is to say that Jesus is unreasonable.

"I can do all things through Christ, who strengtheneth me."
If we take the stance that it is impossible to try to live holy godly lives, then we will excuse sin, falling into the trap of the devil!

[GodsStudent]

I listened to a beautiful sermon this Sunday (6-17)....it deals with sin and sinners. I encourage all who are reading this thread to listen, too: Isaiah 44:21-28

http://christchurchofthecarolinas.org/resources/audios

[mark s]

Colossians 2:13-14 NKJV
(13) And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
(14) having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

This word “Handwriting”, in the Greek, Cheirographon, as it turns out had a very specific meaning.

Let me read this from the English Standard Version:

Colossians 2:13-14 ESV
(13) And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
(14) by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

In 1896, archeologists began the excavation of Oxyrhynchus, in Egypt. Or more specifically, the local landfill dump. Among other things, they found 1000's of papyri. Papyrus was hand-made paper, made from reeds, very expensive, and they used every scrap. Court records had shopping lists on the back, and personal notes in the margins. Scholars have continued to translate these 1000's of papyri, and have learned many things of the society, customs, and practices of the 3rd largest city in Egypt during the times of the Apostles.

This is where we learned that “Tetelestai” - “It is finished”, as Jesus spoke from the cross - was written across a certificate of debt when it was “paid in full”. And this is where we learned that those certificates of debt were called a “cheirographon” - handwriting.

We see this in Paul's letter to Philemon,

Philemon 1:18-19 NKJV
(18) But if he has wronged you or owes anything, put that on my account.
(19) I, Paul, am writing with my own hand. I will repay--not to mention to you that you owe me even your own self besides.

This was the custom. If I wrote in my own hand that I owed you something, that “handwriting” was your legal proof of my indebtedness. And when I paid you, you would write across it, Tetelestai, and that was my legal proof of the discharge of that debt.

It is Finished. Paid in Full. We are completely forgiven – everything – for all time – how strongly can I say it? How strongly can it be said?

Hebrews 10:11-23 NKJV
(11) And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
(12) But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
(13) from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
(14) For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
(15) But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
(16) "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,"
(17) then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
(18) Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
(19) Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
(20) by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
(21) and having a High Priest over the house of God,
(22) let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
(23) Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

"Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.”

“Remission”, also translated “forgiveness”, means that they have been “sent away”. The is not longer an offering for sin because our sin has been sent away. Our sins are gone! What is there to offer?

Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. If you have sins that aren't forgiven, who shall die to pay for them?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

It is Finished. Paid in Full. We are completely forgiven – everything – for all time – how strongly can I say it? How strongly can it be said?

"For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." Heb 8:12

[Mark F]

I would think the natural way most people would answer is "Go and sin no more and I will not condemn thee too."

But as far as the record goes, Jesus does not challenge the woman to confess her sins and force her for repentance.

This is a very astute observation, Keeping Alert. Interesting that we love to focus on the "sin no more" aspect of this story rather than the compassion Jesus had for the sinner. Also of interest is Jesus protects her from her angry, self-righteous accusers, the Pharisees. The Pharisees generally resented Jesus' compassion toward the despised and rejected and most people were afraid of them because they had great power and influence. In fact, when Jesus healed a blind man (John 9), they threatened that anyone who confessed Jesus as the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. They literally seemed to follow Jesus around to harass and accuse Him as He administered grace, healing, and hope to sinners. The Pharisees remind me of the angry Westboro Baptist church members.

We should, imho, imitate Jesus' approach to sinners in offering grace as you said, Keeping Alert. That doesn't mean we should approve or marginalize sin, but that we focus on the compassion Jesus displayed toward those most in need of the gospel. After all, He died for them. (Romans 5)

That's how I see it.

I believe that because of the Pharisees and legalists that we really only focus on the "neither do I condemn you" and ignore the "go and sin no more" part.

I am 100% that we are saved by faith in Christ alone, that it is by His grace a gift, but I lived that lifeof continual sin because I had the "i'm saved" mentality.

I believe that we cannot preach grace without preaching that obedience must follow. There HAS to be a balance, all grace and no obedience is the broad way, IMO.

Eph 1
13" In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

1 Corinthians 6:20
"For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s".


We are slaves of Christ, therefore if we are truly His slaves not just immitators, our most important goal will be to please Him in obedience-period. Not sinless perfection.

That's not the same as preaching that you must clean up before coming to Christ, that's not to say that anyone is instantly obedient, that saying,

"Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more"

Jesus never implied that people should not be changed after an encounter with him, that's what I read in these discussions.

[Abiding in His Word]

....our most important goal will be to please Him in obedience-period.

Obedience to what laws/rules, Mark F?

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=63468

[Mark F]

As Christians we are free to do as we please because we are saved by faith-no laws apply?

So I can murder and its ok?

Your question seems to be sarcastic, as if we have no obligation to Christ.

[Abiding in His Word]

Your question seems to be sarcastic, as if we have no obligation to Christ.

Please forgive me if my question appears sarcastic. Looking back, it was perhaps a bit terse. Let me try again.

Mark F, what rules/laws/commands are we to obey according to scripture? (hope that's better)

[Mark F]

It's ok, thanks.

There is no law I am required to live by you know that, I am saved apart from the law.

So am I not expected to live Godly?
My impression in this discussion that I speak about is that we must be careful to preach the whole gospel. Repent means something, it means I must turn from my old life of sin right?

Mark speaks in his message that we are to live godly before the world. I used to be a cheating drunk, can I go on being a cheating drunk and expect to be considered to be living godly let alone actually saved? What I am saying is not that difficult to understand, to live yes, but that does not exclude us from being truthful in saying in our gospel that as I may come to Christ as I am, I must now life godly.

[slick]

So am I not expected to live Godly?

This is the whole point of James 2

Jam 2:20 (NASB) — "But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?"

1Ti 5:20 (NASB) — "Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning."

Rom 6:1 (NASB) — "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?"

What is Paul's response to the rhetorical question?

Rom 6:2 (NASB) — "May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?"

Christ redeems us....buys us FROM and OUT, no matter what state we are called, but there is a change of mind as to the knowledge of SIN and a conscience that is changed to reflect the desire to live a GODLY life. without that changed conscience salvation is FALSE just as James imply s in his book.

And we as True Believers are called to preach the Gospel, which is FORGIVENESS of SIN by The REDEEMING BLOOD SACRIFICE of Christ on the cross.

A Changed Heart toward our sin is an after effect of those who have been truly sealed by the HOLY SPIRIT and without at the very core an inward struggle against sin, redemption has not occurred.

Hard message to accept and yet it prevails all through the New Testament, and It runs as a Theme and requirement in the OT COMPLETE obedience to the LAW...GOD understands that He gave an Impossible task, but it was as Paul states "A TUTOR" to give us a reason to place our faith in JESUS.

ROMANS 6...

Rom 8:1 (NASB) — Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

which is a statement of unilateral forgiveness, past present and future....not that there is to be NO striving against sin. sanctification, which is a WORK of GOD on behalf of the sinner....simply put if there is not a decrease in sin and an increase of righteous living the HOLY SPIRIT is not present.

GOD-BLESS,
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!
Clarence

[mark s]

Mark speaks in his message that we are to live godly before the world. I used to be a cheating drunk, can I go on being a cheating drunk and expect to be considered to be living godly let alone actually saved? What I am saying is not that difficult to understand, to live yes, but that does not exclude us from being truthful in saying in our gospel that as I may come to Christ as I am, I must now life godly.

Hi Mark,

If you've been born again, God will work within you to no longer be a cheating drunk. It may or may not happen all at once. If it does not happen immediately, those sins to come remain forgiven.

Christ did not save you to then live under Law. But neither did He save you to then live under sin.

One of the central points in my message is that our power over sin directly relates to our living in God's forgiveness and grace.

I read it again this morning, in a different place:

Ephesians 3:18-19 (NLT):

"And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God."

I immediately thought of:

Romans 5:8 (NLT) "But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners."

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

So am I not expected to live Godly?

Our conduct will change as we are changed. It is the outflow of Jesus in me. We love because He first loved us. And love does no wrong to a neighbor and therefore is the fulfillment of the law. Rom 13:10

Remember the new commandment Jesus mentioned; i.e. love of God and love of neighbor? Love is the greatest motivator that assures loving interaction with others. Will we always reflect that love in our activities and/or conduct? No. The reason is that the flesh (our carnal nature) wars against our spiritual nature.

I suspect that one reason we tend to like some type of list or standard of goodness and right behavior is so we can measure our progress against that list. But in doing that, we have become performance-based in our righteousness. We know what scripture says about our own righteousness.

So how, then, do we live? We live by the the greatest commandment: love of God and neighbor. When we fail, it brings a greater appreciation of what He has done for us in (as Mark noted, nailing the certificate of debt to the cross) and cause a greater love for Him. Remember the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and annointed them with perfume? This woman was so full of love for Jesus that she dared to walk in uninvited to the home of a Pharisee to express her love. And when the Pharisee recognized her as a sinner, Jesus talked to him about her love. She loved much because she had been forgiven much. (Luke 7) She was changed from "me" centered to "Him" centered.

When we recognize how much He has done for us, we will reflect Him and His love in our conduct. We don't have to conjure up a list of do's and don'ts. It is the natural outflow of His love in us and our appreciation of that love. By this will all men know we are His disciples; our love for one another. John 13:35

The yoke of performance-based righteousness is very heavy as opposed to His yoke which is easy and light and gives rest from trying to become worthy.

[Abiding in His Word]

....those sins to come remain forgiven.

So important and yet so difficult to receive. Can't remember the hymn but I do remember this..."the burden of my sins rolled away...." Hallelujah! What a Savior!!

[mark s]

One I absolutely adore:

"My sin . . . Oh the bliss of this glorious thought! My sin, not in part but the whole, is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more! Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord, O my soul!"

[slick]

Hello Gang,
The problem I see in this discussion , is that there seems to be confusion between two or three separate issues.

1st: CHRIST ACCEPTS THE SINNER AT WHATEVER POINT HE IS CALLED, NO MATTER WHAT THE SIN OR SINS HE MAY BE GUILTY OF.....

However, there is an expectation that there was knowledge of a need to be forgiven, I.E an awareness of sin. and the repentance is a change of attitude thought and heart on the issue of self pleasing, to GOD pleasing. there may be different lengths or periods of time that one struggles against a particular sin, but there is always a heart change that causes us to understand that we have/are sinning.

2nd: there are three works of the HOLY SPIRIT/GOD that are granted upon salvation / sealing by the HS, SALVATION,JUSTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION.....ALL THREE are A WORK of GOD, and are immediate upon ones redemption, but in the case of sanctification it can and often appears to be PROGRESSIVE.....however, if there is no evidence of any change, there probably was no change.

Gods Work of Sanctification, from our perspective is progressive, in that He is continually making us aware of our sin in order to make us like Christ, there are sins in my life that I have struggled/ struggle with that at the time of my salvation,I was not even aware that they were sin! that is GODS work in refining me.

We can Come to JESUS Just as we are,and we can Fall as often as the fleshly struggle continues,but there shoul be a progressive change from a (willful) sinful pattern of life to an increasing GODLY lifestyle.

GOD-BLESS,
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!
Clarence

[mark s]

John 1:12-13 (ESV) "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, the gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

Repentance is from "metanoia". "Meta" is the preposition "after", "noia", the noun "mind". Meta in conjunction with noia, "aftermind", refers to an "exchanged mind", the mind we have after . . . receiving Jesus, believing in His Name.

We've recognized that the "mind of the flesh" is death, and we need Jesus to give us life. Of course, we don't know all the theology, we just know that we need Jesus.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

BTW . . . Hebrews teaches we have been made holy, a completed work. We do not become "more holy".

But our overall behavior does improve as we grow in the Spirit, as self control is part of the fruit of the Spirit.

[lamb7]

As soldiers in the army of the Lord, we also need to keep it in mind that these captives of the devil are our fellow human beings, men and woman for whom Christ died, and whom God desires to be saved (Ezek.18:23; Matt.18:14; Jn.12:47; 1Tim.2:4; 2Tim.2:24-26; 2Pet.3:9). Unlike purely human conflicts, where one side is out to destroy the other, God's desire is (and our desire must also be) the winning over to the love of Jesus Christ of all those who have been drafted by the devil:

We beg you on Christ's behalf: be reconciled to God!
2nd Corinthians 5:20

R.D. Luginbill

[mark s]

As soldiers in the army of the Lord, we also need to keep it in mind that these captives of the devil are our fellow human beings, men and woman for whom Christ died, and whom God desires to be saved (Ezek.18:23; Matt.18:14; Jn.12:47; 1Tim.2:4; 2Tim.2:24-26; 2Pet.3:9). Unlike purely human conflicts, where one side is out to destroy the other, God's desire is (and our desire must also be) the winning over to the love of Jesus Christ of all those who have been drafted by the devil:

We beg you on Christ's behalf: be reconciled to God!
2nd Corinthians 5:20

R.D. Luginbill

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I tend to agree that it is the work of the Holy Spirit in us that sanctifies us. That whatever works of righteousness we do is really a result of the Holy Spirit at work in us. However, there is a small thing called free will, that we as human beings have. We have the choice to follow the leading of the Spirit or not. At times we follow the flesh at other times we follow the Spirit, as we grow in Christ and mature as believers we learn to walk more and more according to the spirit. As we walk life's journey we often are beset by sin, we stumble, we fall... the Holy Spirit convicts, we repent and get back up and keep going. Wherever we are on the path to salvation- it doesn't matter- we are saved once we are on the path.

I personally think that the confusion is due to understanding when that path is truly embarked upon.

The parable of the sower sheds some light on this idea- the seed (the word of God) is planted in the four kinds of soil .The different kinds of soil represent the different responses that people have to the word of God.

The soil beside the road is hardened and the seed does not germinate at all, in reproductive terms it is a failure to conceive.

The seed that falls among the rocks does not receive enough nutrients to remain viable. This person receives the word and it begins to take root in their life. The "seed" begins to germinate, but because they suffer difficulty and persecution, and temptation they fall away. This in reproductive terms would be a miscarriage.

The seed that falls on the thorny soil is choked out by weeds- this person receives the word but the cares and worries of the world prove to be too much for the germinated seed to become a viable fruit bearing plant, this is in reproductive terms would be a still born birth.

The seed that falls on the good soil however- germinates and takes root and becomes a plant that can bear fruit. This person receives the word and perseveres, they hold fast. You see God brings the rain, God supplies, the nutrients, God shines forth the sun, so that photosynthesis can take place- He causes the growth. But the person must persevere and hold fast. This is what makes "good soil", this is what creates the conditions suitable for the reproductive cycle to proceed and perpetuate. God Himself creates the soil, other believers help cultivate it- fertilize it, pull weeds, prepare it for planting, others also plant the seeds, but the person who receives the seed of the word must respond by persevering, through temptation, through persecution and trials.

I am convinced that we have misunderstood what it means to be saved. It is not just simply responding to a simple prayer, it is more than just a mental assent, more than just believing, it is responding to the Holy Spirit's leading in our life- confessing Jesus as Lord, which is making and submitting to Him as Lord.

I tend to believe that when one hears the word and initially responds favorably to it, by assenting to it as being true, that they are not yet saved, they are in that precarious place of conception, but salvation has not yet been born in them. How they respond determines if they will embark on the path to salvation, if the seed of faith will be born in them as a viable plant.

Paul explains it well here:

Hebrews 6:1-12
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if God permits.
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,
12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

The understanding of elementary principles, is like the conception, these have been enlightened to the truth, but they have not yet embarked on the path toward growth and maturity in Christ, they can respond by doing so, but are in danger because they lack discernment, they can easily become entangled by the things of the world and fail to embark on that path. If in the end they cannot overcome and they yield only thorns and thistles- they are rendered useless and end up being burned if they continue in that state. The seed has been planted and the truth conceived, but it has not yet been born in the plant of faith.

All this to say that if one continues to yield primarily the produce of the flesh in their lives then they are putting themselves in danger, they are in peril of falling away. They have not yet given birth to saving faith IMO. When exactly someone does this is hard to determine, and really only God knows. Though scripture does say that a tree is known by its fruit. But sometimes a tree can take a long time to produce fruit. It is not our job to judge others, but to come alongside and bring those who are in peril back to the path that leads to faith. To aid in cultivating the soil, to water and fertilize so that the chances of success are greatly enhanced.

James 5:19-20
19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I really think that we cannot rule out free will as a factor in our salvation.

RT

[Abiding in His Word]

Hello RT,

I'm still digesting your post, but I'm having a bit of trouble with your comparing the parable of the sower/seed with human reproductive cycle; i.e. conceiving, still birth, miscarriage, etc. To me that's reading something into the story that was related to hearers very familiar with agricultural terms as this was their primary livelihood. Grain, seeds, vines, vineyards, fields, fruit, roots, etc. all represent God as the "farmer" or "vinedresser" who is working to produce a harvest. This agricultural association is prevalent throughout both the old and new testatments.

So isn't relating the parable in terms of human reproduction focusing on something other than the One who plows the soil to prepare it for seeds? And isn't God the one who causes the growth?

So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 1Cor. 3:7

ETA: You stated this at the end of your post:

Perhaps I am wrong, but I really think that we cannot rule out free will as a factor in our salvation.

In interpreting the sower/seeds parable in terms of human reproduction and then your inclusion of free will poses some measure of contradiction as well. After all, does anyone willingly choose to have a stillbirth or a miscarriage? Am I misunderstanding your analogy?

[Resurrection Torchlight]

The idea of the reproductive system is not a far stretch to make, since the parable is speaking of reproduction- A seed carries the DNA for the next generation of plant. The cycle is -seed which is planted, germination, growth, fruit production, seed, and in all cases death sometime comes to the plant, some plants have many reproductive cycles, some only one. The point of faith is to produce fruit, which bears the seeds that will become the next generation of faith. It is very much about reproduction, and thus not at all a stretch to correlate it to human reproduction, Paul himself does so, when he calls some of the "brethren" ---"Infants" or "babes". John calls some of his followers "little children". Paul as well to the Corinthians calls himself their father, he also says to the Galatians :

Galatians 4:19
19 My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you—

He speaks in terms of human reproduction. Christ Himself says we "must be born again". Indeed Peter correlates the "seed" with human reproduction as well:

1 Peter 1:23
23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Is not the term "born again" analogous to human reproduction?

Yes I agree that it is not what the parable is speaking of, it is my own correlation which I believe works to help explain it.

Also you say that Christ is the sower and that is true, He was, but those who believe also become sowers- Paul says that he planted and Apollos watered- but God caused the increase. (1 Cor 3:6). That is my point- God causes the increase, we ourselves do not, but the condition of our soil, how we respond to Him, has direct effect on whether or not that growth happens. If we respond correctly then He will cause the growth. Also we as believers can help others to respond correctly, we can encourage them to repent of sin, we can pray for and with them, we can walk beside them and help them up when they stumble, exhorting them when necessary.

Scripture is pretty clear

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:18-25
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

The key is what is our practice? What is the produce of our life? Do we produce the fruits of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit? What is our occupation? Peter says that:

2 Peter 1:5-11
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

he says that if these qualities (the divine nature supplied by God through the Holy Spirit) are ours and are increasing, then we will be fruitful, we will grow to maturity. But the one who lacks the divine nature has forgotten his purification from sin. So here we see that someone can know of their purification from sin and forget about it. But as long as we nurture our faith with the divine nature we are assured of salvation, in other words we have to respond as "good soil".

James also says:

James 1:22-25
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

Hearing and knowing is not what saves us- it is responding to the word of God in our lives, walking by the Spirit. We do not do so perfectly, but with "practice" we get better at it- this is the process of sanctification or Christian growth.

If someone claims to be a follower of Christ and yet remains a practicing homosexual, or adulterer, or idol worshiper, etc... they are merely hearers and not doers. But we can come alongside them and remind them of their purification from sin, and admonish them to repent of sin, and in this way we cultivate their soil, so that the seed has a better chance to continue growing. That is what Paul constantly did in his letters to the churches- He labored over them so that Christ might be formed in them. He cultivated their soil so that the seed of God's word might bear fruit. The fruit of salvation- the fruits of the Holy Spirit, the divine nature of Christ in us, so that they can go on to scatter the seeds of their fruit (the gospel) on the soil of those whose lives they touch.

RT

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi again,

The cycle is -seed which is planted, germination, growth, fruit production, seed, and in all cases death sometime comes to the plant, some plants have many reproductive cycles,

I agree with agricultural terms you have listed here relative to the parable of the sower. And I agree that God, Jesus, and Paul all reference human reproduction in terms of birth and growth as metaphors to spiritual birth and growth. But to add human reproduction to agricultural germination including words like still-birth, miscarriage, etc. is to add a metaphor to the parable that isn't intended imho.

You are free to disagree, but I think we over-complicate the parable. Those hearing Jesus words did not have access to Paul's letters at the time, so I'm of the opinion that when Jesus told the three parables in Matthew, His references to roots, seeds, soil, thorns, weeds, tares, fields, sprouting, wheat, harvest, etc. should not be confused with human reproduction.

Metaphors involving reproductive terms are not interchangeable with agricultural terms and vice versa. My perspective only perhaps.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi again,

The cycle is -seed which is planted, germination, growth, fruit production, seed, and in all cases death sometime comes to the plant, some plants have many reproductive cycles,

I agree with agricultural terms you have listed here relative to the parable of the sower. And I agree that God, Jesus, and Paul all reference human reproduction in terms of birth and growth as metaphors to spiritual birth and growth. But to add human reproduction to agricultural germination including words like still-birth, miscarriage, etc. is to add a metaphor to the parable that isn't intended imho.

You are free to disagree, but I think we over-complicate the parable. Those hearing Jesus words did not have access to Paul's letters at the time, so I'm of the opinion that when Jesus told the three parables in Matthew, His references to roots, seeds, soil, thorns, weeds, tares, fields, sprouting, wheat, harvest, etc. should not be confused with human reproduction.

Metaphors involving reproductive terms are not interchangeable with agricultural terms and vice versa. My perspective only perhaps.

Perhaps you missed this part:
[quote]Yes I agree that it is not what the parable is speaking of, it is my own correlation which I believe works to help explain it.[/quote}

It wasn't my intent to "add" anything to God's word, only trying to point out how the "seed" and it's growth or lack thereof varies as far as viability goes. A seed that doesn't germinate- is very much like a failure to conceive. A seed that germinates but withers and dies is very much like a miscarriage, a seed that germinates and grows but then dies is very much like a still birth, and a seed that germinates, grows and remains to bear fruit, is very much like a live birth- being "Born again" if you will- would you disagree?

I was only making the comparison or analogy. I am very aware that the parable speaks in terms of agriculture, to me it doesn't add confusion to the parable but helps me understand it better, to relate it to terms I understand and perhaps others can understand it that way too.

However all that aside, you are missing my point altogether, about when salvation really begins.

RT

[Keeping Alert]

hi guys,

i am on holiday so i have not been active since i posted my OP.

i could only manage a quick scan so my response will be brief.

i can do all things through Christ - i think it was daffodylady who quoted this.

indeed. but the very same Paul said that the good he wants to do, that he does not do and vice versa.

the problem is this - this wretched body or flesh that we still possess. Paul exclaimed

the solution? Christ! to add anything on top of salvation on top of Christ alone is what is theproblem and Paul in Galatians 5 says is "fallen from grace"

let us always remember the first cimmandment to love God with all of our strength, mind, might n heart.

i dare say None of us can do it because we can only do it through Christ.

our response to a sinner is to Love. that is what we have been commanded to do. Jesus clearly demonstrated this with tge ilkustration of the Samaritan.

i will write ore

[Resurrection Torchlight]

the solution? Christ! to add anything on top of salvation on top of Christ alone is what is theproblem and Paul in Galatians 5 says is "fallen from grace"

So what does it mean exactly to be "saved"?

RT

[Keeping Alert]

Hi guys, back from my holidays.

Sorry for my horrendous spelling and typing errors above... I was typing from my handphone with a keypad that does not fit my fingertips. And to top it all, the internet connection was cut off so that the message was truncated.

But first to reply RT... so what does it mean to be saved?

It is a good question that requires our full proper understanding of what salvation is but in a nutshell - it is the work of God.

We have to understand this and it is God that saves us. And the bible is clear - it is by grace through faith (Ephesian 2:8,9).

So why do we add terms and conditions to salvation? The God who saves, will also do the work of sanctification... but if we do NOT see any apparent progress in sanctification, well, quoting Jesus to Peter "What is that to you?" (John 21:20-24) Follow Jesus!

The work of salvation must come first before the work of sanctification. But we often impose rules and regulations for men to follow. In essence we are saying you need to fulfill this law or that law in order for salvation to come.

And when we see that a lying, cheating, immoral person coming to Christ, we start to put up red flags.

Do we doubt the power of God to save? I suspect we will all say no but the message that we convey through our actions and our response to someone still in sin coming to Christ is so - we have no confidence in God to save at all.

Can a homosexual come to Christ in his sinful, confused state? Oh no that can't be! - is the roar of many.

But oh why, single out the homosexual? Homosexuality is not even in the 10 commandments.

Did not one of us come to Christ, when we were struggling with lustful thoughts? Well, that is adultery according to Jesus.

Did not one of us come to Christ, when we were hurtful and holding bitterness and revenge? Well, that is murder.

Did not one of us come to Christ, when we were dishonoring our parents?

And how many of us are still living lives that are "hypocritical" to say the least... How many of us then can be saved if we had to clean up our act before believing in Jesus Christ.

Romans 11:6 says "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

I will leave you with this verse to mediated and respond.

In-Christ,
KA

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi KA, I wholly agree with you. Salvation is a work of God for sure! I guess my question would be better put as when does salvation actually happen? I mean we have to do something right? because if nothing was required then everyone would be saved, that would be universalism.

I was just reading Romans this morning:

Romans 8:1-15
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

We are "under obligation" to walk in a certain way- by the Spirit, what is necessary for us is to yield our will to His. The work is all His, but He cannot do the work if we resist Him. Yet if the Holy Spirit truly abides in us, then how can we resist? Paul goes on to say that the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness, and :

Romans 8:28
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

God "causes" all things to work together, so again it is God that does the work. Yet those works are evidence that we have real faith in Christ. If the work of the Holy Spirit is lacking in the life of a so called "believer" then their "salvation" is suspect. If the fruit of their life is of the flesh then they "must die" as Paul said to the Romans.

So then salvation actually occurs when the Holy Spirit resides in the believer. If we have the Spirit, we will by the Spirit be "putting to death the deeds of the body". I guess that's my real question then: when does the Holy Spirit move in? When are we actually placed "in Christ". It is obviously more than just belief, or mental assent.

I am not sure that we can even know when exactly it happens. But when looking at the parable of the sower, it is only one soil that produces a viable plant of faith. Many receive the gift, but only some actually put it to use. They believe but not unto salvation. They make the mental assent but don't actually ever yield to the Holy Spirit, so that He can take up residence in their life. When the Holy Spirit moves in, then He will convict us of sin, and cause us to put to death the deeds of the body. Note however the present tense "putting" to death the deeds of the body. It is an ongoing struggle, we are not automatically made sinless but as we are sanctified we continue to repent of sin.

Let me add that just because someone might be found in a certain kind of sin, does not mean that they are not saved, we cannot know for certain, if they are or not. But scripture does say:

James 5:19-20
19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

James is speaking to the "brethren" here, those within the local body of believers. He appears to imply that if one strays from the truth that his soul is on a course toward death. Yet if one turns him from their error, or in other words; causes them to repent; they will in effect "save" them from that path toward death.

It is not our place to render judgment, or to condemn others, it is our job to cultivate their soil, to go after those who stray off the path, who have IMO made the mental assent, but have not yet yielded to the power of the Holy Spirit in their life, and to encourage them to do so. In doing so we may save their soul from death. So is this one who is among the brethren who strays from the truth "saved" or not?

It appears that he is not because he is destined for death.

Unless however you are among those who believe you can lose your salvation. I however tend to believe that those who stray from the truth are not yet actually saved by it. They may be trying to follow it, but they are not living "in" it.

RT

[Keeping Alert]

Hi RT,

Romans 8 happens to be my favourite chapter in the whole bible.

It begins "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

The "therefore" refers to the verse before in Romans 7 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the midn I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

Christians are no longer under condemnation not because they no longer walk in the flesh but because they are in Christ Jesus. If we have no condemnation because we no longer walk in the flesh at all, then none of us will be saved!

Having been saved, we have the capability to walk after the Spirit, whereas in the past, we do not have this capability. But we are still "fleshy" and we struggle even as Paul struggles in Romans 7.

So when do we become saved? I believe that one become saved at the very point that one sincerely chooses to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as His Lord and Savior.

As you rightly mentioned, it is when we are given the Holy Spirit. And in all righteousness, God will give anyone who ask salvation of Him. He CANNOT reject anyone based on his foreknowledge that that person will not live a sanctified life and even be fruitless. It is like a father punishing a child PRIOR to the sin that the child will commit in the future!

And I totally agree with you that salvation is OSAS. If salvation is not based on works, then it cannot be otherwise.

We have to realise that there are many people who come to trust in the Lord base on a simple John 3:16. I work among people who are Christians but will pray to their ancestors because it is their culture to do so. Of course, we can try to make these people realise their mistake from the bible but what if such a one who believes in the Lord Jesus Christ should die before anyone tells him of his error? Or what if even if we tell him, he still cannot see clearly from the bible that it is wrong to pray to ancestors?

I believe God's Grace is greater than a million of these types of errors added together! I believe that when God opened the "floodgate that all may go in" (as the famous hymn goes), he opened it for those who are confused, for those who are culturally bound by erroneous practices, for those who are brain-washed by the world that they are born in such and such a way, for thoese with an IQ that are not so high, etc, etc.... essentially, anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord WILL be saved.

Of course, they who mockingly call upon the name of the Lord will not be saved as God is not mocked. But those who sincerely calls, whether in error or not in error, will all be saved. THAT IS GRACE! It is no longer any of our merit, but God's unmerited favor upon us! Hallelujah!

And it is not Universalism.

I am always intrigued by how Peter was saved despite denying Jesus. In fact, later we know that Peter dared not to even say that he AGAPE Jesus. AGAPE love is the kind of love that God demands of everyone of us toward Him. 2 times Jesus asked Peter "Do you AGAPE me?" to which Peter replied that he only PHILEO (liked) Jesus. The third time, Jesus relented and asked Peter "Do you PHILEO me?" It is the most amazing thing to me! Jesus is saying to Peter, it does not matter... even if you just like me and not really love me, I still love (AGAPE) you, go feed my sheep.

I mentioned the verse regarding loving God with all our heart, strength, mind and soul and no one responded to this verse. Why? Because none of us can achieve it 100%. Yes, we can do all things through Christ but are we always doing all things through Christ 100% of the time? Come on, we lose our temper even for the smallest things!

So none of us really AGAPE God. Let us therefore, consider the plank in our eye and not just behold the splinter in the other's eye.

But of course, we are to preach living a sanctified life for Christ. We are do believe Christ and to live Christ. But always remember that it is God that does the sanctification, if God were to take him away before that happens... what is that to you? If God were to take His time to work out sanctification in the person life... what is that to you? (following the same vein as Jesus replied to Peter)

Let us therefore, love one another even as Jesus asked us to. And God forbid that we stumble an infant in the Lord...

In-Christ,
KA

[Abiding in His Word]

I believe God's Grace is greater than a million of these types of errors added together! I believe that when God opened the "floodgate that all may go in" (as the famous hymn goes), he opened it for those who are confused, for those who are culturally bound by erroneous practices, for those who are brain-washed by the world that they are born in such and such a way, for thoese with an IQ that are not so high, etc, etc.... essentially, anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord WILL be saved.

Of course, they who mockingly call upon the name of the Lord will not be saved as God is not mocked. But those who sincerely calls, whether in error or not in error, will all be saved. THAT IS GRACE! It is no longer any of our merit, but God's unmerited favor upon us! Hallelujah!

One of the most difficult jobs we have as believers is to enter into His rest. Every fiber of our being wants to somehow earn, participate, and/or perform to please God and receive His favor. Once we "get it" and understand what Jesus meant when He said, "It is finished," we will never again look at God's favor in terms of actions and/or performance but solely on what He has done on our behalf. Only then is there rest for the weary and heavy laden.

[Abiding in His Word]

(1). His righteousness makes believers SAINTS in His eyes, and the tags "homosexual, adulterer, fornicator, etc..." are removed.

(2). You and I as believers will CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE with sexual sins, but they do not define who we are. Christ defines us, not our sins, or even our continuing sinful sexual desires.

(3). The more we learn the freedom of choosing holiness in the midst of our struggles, the greater our joy in Christ becomes, but even in our sexual failures, His joy for us is never lessoned, His joy in us is never diminished, and His joy over us never shrinks. It is our joy at stake, not His.

(4). Transparency and accountability in the midst of our struggles is part of His work of grace in us.

(5). Christ ultimately transforms us, but the manner and time in which He finishes His masterpiece (ie. you and me) is His responsiblity, not ours. So, even in the midst of our darkest struggles, we should never lose hope. We have an eternal perspective that God's love is ultimately effectual in us.

link

[Keeping Alert]

Amen, Abiding.

His righteousness makes believers SAINTS in His eyes, and the tags "homosexual, adulterer, fornicator, etc..." are removed.

Theologically, Christ's Righteousness is said to be IMPUTED upon us. (Romans 4)

But for a more visual illustration, we can look to the old testament method of temple sacrifice.

What happens is that a sinner takes a lamb to the priest and the priest will check out the lamb for blemishes. If the lamb is found worthy or unblemished, the sinner puts his hand on the lamb as a picture of his sins being imputed on the lamb and the holiness of the lamb is in return imputed to the sinner. The priest then slays the lamb as a picture that it is done.

The priest represents God. The priest does not check out the sinner. He checks out the lamb. And we know the lamb represents Jesus. God found Jesus worthy and the sins of the world was borne by Jesus and God slays Jesus.

Anyone who therefore, comes sincerely to God for salvation, essentially has Christ's Righteousness imputed on him and his sins are imputed to Jesus which was nailed to the cross.

What is vivid about this is that a sinner who may sin unknowingly or may be struggling with sin, may hold his head up high when the devil, the accuser of the brethren (Oh, you fornicator, oh you pornography pervert, oh you homosexual, oh you cheat, oh you....), starts to cause you to doubt your salvation based on your "works", because you know the devil is checking out the wrong person.

The devil should be checking out JESUS!!! And you can rest assured that he ain't going to find no fault there!!! Hallelujah!

Don't fall from Grace (Gal 5:4), my friends. Passages like Heb 6 and others that threaten that we must be perfect in order to enter heaven, simple reinforce the fact that we enter heaven by Grace and Grace alone.

It is not simple, I know. Our fallen nature wants to see results, it wants to see some kind of works verifying salvation. Nope, the work has been completed on the cross by Jesus Christ for us.

We think that we are little gods that try to enforce some kind of respectability and order to the church, that the church may appear pure and holy. The truth is that we become little devils in doing that - we have become the accuser of the brethren.

The church is Righteous not because of what it can or cannot do but because of what Christ has done for us.

We now have no "homosexual, adulterer, fornicator" tag; we have a tag that says "JESUS"! Hallelujah!

As Abiding said, let us enter into His Rest!

One of the most difficult jobs we have as believers is to enter into His rest. Every fiber of our being wants to somehow earn, participate, and/or perform to please God and receive His favor. Once we "get it" and understand what Jesus meant when He said, "It is finished," we will never again look at God's favor in terms of actions and/or performance but solely on what He has done on our behalf. Only then is there rest for the weary and heavy laden.

And why can we rest? Think and meditate on the following verse in terms of the sacrifice and imputing of righteousness described above. (clue - it is once for all... forever... one sacrifice... their sins I will remember no more)

Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].


Hbr 10:11 ¶ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:


Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


Hbr 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.


Hbr 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Hbr 10:15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,


Hbr 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


Hbr 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Love-in-Christ,
KA

[Abiding in His Word]

We now have no "homosexual, adulterer, fornicator" tag......

That's being said, I feel compelled to say that I do understand those who worry that this is a "license" to sin. But we should ask ourselves this... does a truly born again believer seek approval of or license to sin? The new birth is a spiritual change that affects every area of our natural/flesh being. It's taking place from the inside out because "... out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

While the inside is being changed, the outside may exert itself in a sinful action or thought. Isaiah deeply felt this conflict, imo, when he said, "Woe is me... a man of unclean lips." And Paul clearly expressed his distress over the battle between the spirit and the flesh.

The difference then, is that as new creatures we may sin as a result of the weakness of the flesh, but we experience great sorrow afterward. And while Jesus died for each of those failures, some feel a need to repent again with each failure as though it was not forgiven.

I think feeling that need (to repent) is a positive thing as we feel a need to express our sorrow. That Godly sorrow is an deep awareness that Jesus suffered and died for our sins. That sorrow and repentance is a good thing. But continual repentance out of fear that one is not saved, denies and nullifies the efficacy of the "once for all time" sacrifice of the cross.

The work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a new believer may not be obvious to us and we may be tempted to discredit his/her conversion, but unless the sin is continual, flagrant, deliberate, justified, and encouraged to others, we must assume a legitimate conversion has taken place and afford grace as is afforded us by Christ.

Hope that makes sense.

[Keeping Alert]

The reason why I started this thread this because I think we have unwittingly started to preach "another" gospel.

The message that we are preaching to the world is that you clean up your act and then you can come to Jesus. The right gospel that I know should be you come to Jesus and He wil clean up your act.

I think this cannot be taken lightly.

Paul in Galatians strongly condemns anyone who preaches any other gospel other than the gospel of grace.

Gal 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Notice the double curse in verses 8 and 9. Paul in Galatians 5:4 tells of how we can fall from grace.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

You see, we are worried that if we don't stress the law, people will fall into terrible sins. You can throw the law book at them and they will still sin.

God's solution was to offer grace so that we can be under grace.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

You see, the amaxzing thing is that the only way for sin NOT TO HAVE dominion over you, is to be under grace. This is contrary to what we are preaching. We think we better teach them everything about the law, that they might know the truth and the they will follow the truth.

That is erroneous . The only way that they might not sin is that we preach grace and they understand grace and appreciate grace and fall in love with the grace that was afforded through Jesus Christ's AGAPE act on the cross.

And that can only be effected by the Holy Spirit is in us.

I will show you what grieves the Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Let's go one verse up

Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

I believe what grieves the Holy Spiriti most is when we refuse to edify each other and bring them to a place of Grace. We condemn them, we tear them up, we make them feel like they are not even worthy of Grace. That's what grieves the Holy Spirit. The God of Grace is greieved when we don't understand that Grace can cover all sins.

Grace, Grace, God's Grace
Grace that is greater than all our sins
Grace Grace, God's gGrace
Grace that is greater than all our sins

Love-in-Christ,
KA

[mark s]

I continue to think about this.

I've come to realize, that many people I know "rate" their success as a Christian according to how much they do or do not sin.

That's looking backward, in my opinion. We should be forward facing, eyes toward our hope, not looking back, to measure ourselves by our failures.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

I've come to realize, that many people I know "rate" their success as a Christian according to how much they do or do not sin.

While I agree 100% with this, I'm inclined to believe that it's quite natural. Just as children try to please their parents by good behavior, we want to please our heavenly father. The problem might come when that leads to a feeling of superiority or imagined personal favoritism. That could lead to criticism of others who don't quite "measure up" to our standards of holiness as the Pharisees did.

In the end, I guess it's motives and heart condition that's the most accurate measuring stick.

(I, too, continue to ponder this, Mark)

[mark s]

I'm beginning to think that it's my degree of reliance upon God for, well, everything!

And the more I rely on Him, the more settled I am, and the more fruitful I am, and the less disobedient I am.