What would you say if...

[Douggg]

Out of the European unification crisis, they re-organized and the new headquarters was situated in Rome?

Doug

[benny balerio]

Out of the European unification crisis, they re-organized and the new headquarters was situated in Rome?

Doug

I would say that I believe that you are dead on target.
But this would mean that something of global proportions must occur in the not too distant future.

http://focusonjerusalem.com/MysteryBaby ... tified.htm

[Exit40]

Hi Doug. I see a possibility of Italy, France, Spain, and maybe Portugal forming an alliance within the EU, likely to include the Balkans and Greece, and taking more control of the Euromed. Based in Rome ? The French might say Paris, but if Prophecy is pointing this way then, yes, Rome.

God Bless You

David

[Jay Ross]

Hi Doug,

If what you are suggesting lines up with scripture, then why is it that God does not see the Roman Empire as a separate entity from the Greek Empire in prophecy?

Back in the 1400's during the reformation, those who were opposed to the Roman Catholic Church made the RCC the bad guys in prophecy to suit their own ends / to justify their political stance for separating from the RCC and forming a new "Reformed Church."

The justification for a "Roman" world power is based on a false understanding of the Daniel 2 prophecy where it is assumed that the segments of the statue in the prophecy must be "World powers" and as such since the Roman Empire, which was a subset of the Greek Empire, gained world dominance then it must be the fourth segment of the statue. Unfortunately, as exposed by history, the Roman Empire had no dominion over the People who lived in the Land of the Chaldeans, which is the focus of the Daniel 2 prophecy, during their time on the world stage of history when the Roman influence had gained the upper hand after some years within the Greek Empire's governance structure established after the death of Alexandra the Great.

Also if we consider Jeremiah 50-51 account of the last two segments of Daniel 2’s statue prophecy he provides a different perspective/understanding of the unfolding events in Daniel’s statue prophecy. Jeremiah 50-51 indicates to us that there is a 2,000 plus year gap between the Greek dominance over the Land of the Chaldeans and the establishment of a new kingdom/nation in that land. Jeremiah 50-51 also tells us when the legs and the feet of the statue will be visible on the Lord’s timeline of prophesied events.

Now since Jeremiah 50-51 does not mention a Roman Empire link for the nations/kingdom dominating this narrative, may I humbly suggest that the proposition presented in the opening post to this thread is poorly conceived and is not supported within the framework of Biblical prophecy. Nor is it s sign for these times for what God is presently doing and allowing to unfold.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[The Orange Mailman]

I would say, next up is a ten nation confederacy who will give their power to one man. He will attempt to move the headquarters to Jerusalem or somewhere in the holy land.

[Tevye]

Good to see ya O.M.!!!!
Hope all is well.

[Ready1]

I would agree with OM.

[benny balerio]

I would say, next up is a ten nation confederacy who will give their power to one man. He will attempt to move the headquarters to Jerusalem or somewhere in the holy land.

I agree with your statement,..but this is how I see it.
I believe the antichrist headquarters begins in Rome and that the antichrist rides the harlot(Religion-one world church)
But at the A.O.D.,...the ac not only commits the A.O.D. but moves his headquarters there.(Destroys the one world church and claims to be god at the A.O.D.)
Now in the first half of Daniels 70th week,..A 7 year covenant is confirmed with Israel,..and at that point,..Israel is still in possession of the land obtained from the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17;1 war(Greater Israel-Genesis 15;18)
But,......At the A.O.D. the jews flee into the wilderness(Bozrah) and the ac then redistributes the land back to arabs.

[Jay Ross]

I would say, next up is a ten nation confederacy who will give their power to one man. He will attempt to move the headquarters to Jerusalem or somewhere in the holy land.

I agree with your statement,..but this is how I see it.
I believe the antichrist headquarters begins in Rome and that the antichrist rides the harlot(Religion-one world church)
But at the A.O.D.,...the ac not only commits the A.O.D. but moves his headquarters there.(Destroys the one world church and claims to be god at the A.O.D.)
Now in the first half of Daniels 70th week,..A 7 year covenant is confirmed with Israel,..and at that point,..Israel is still in possession of the land obtained from the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17;1 war(Greater Israel-Genesis 15;18)
But,......At the A.O.D. the jews flee into the wilderness(Bozrah) and the ac then redistributes the land back to arabs.

Benny

Does not Daniel 9:27 say the following?

Daniel 9:27: - And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

now my question is who are the many that the strong covenant is made with? Is Irsael specifically mentioned or is scripture silent as to who the many are in this verse?

I would suggest that this is the same covenant that is spoken about in Rev 20.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[benny balerio]

I would say, next up is a ten nation confederacy who will give their power to one man. He will attempt to move the headquarters to Jerusalem or somewhere in the holy land.

I agree with your statement,..but this is how I see it.
I believe the antichrist headquarters begins in Rome and that the antichrist rides the harlot(Religion-one world church)
But at the A.O.D.,...the ac not only commits the A.O.D. but moves his headquarters there.(Destroys the one world church and claims to be god at the A.O.D.)
Now in the first half of Daniels 70th week,..A 7 year covenant is confirmed with Israel,..and at that point,..Israel is still in possession of the land obtained from the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17;1 war(Greater Israel-Genesis 15;18)
But,......At the A.O.D. the jews flee into the wilderness(Bozrah) and the ac then redistributes the land back to arabs.

Benny

Does not Daniel 9:27 say the following?

Daniel 9:27: - And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

now my question is who are the many that the strong covenant is made with? Is Irsael specifically mentioned or is scripture silent as to who the many are in this verse?

I would suggest that this is the same covenant that is spoken about in Rev 20.

Shalom

Jay Ross

I believe that you are asking the wrong questions.

I'll let you answer by asking you a question:
To what race are the 70 weeks of Daniel decreed too by God?

[Jay Ross]

Daniel 9:24-27
God’s purpose for the people of Israel and Jerusalem

"Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city,

1. to finish the transgression,
2. to put an end to sin, and
3. to atone for iniquity,
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. to seal both vision and prophet, and
6. to anoint a most holy place.

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.

Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

Concerning the fate of Christ after his first advent.

And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing;

Concerning the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem and the land of Canaan

and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end {for some 2,000 or so years}, there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

A prophecy concerning the end of mans’ time and a covenant that will be made with many nations and people groups and possibly also including some from Israel which will have a seven year undertaking on the part of the desolator around a 1,000 years after the redemption of the nation of Israel and possible referred to as the Time of Jacob's trouble in other OT prophecy.

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

I hope I have answered your question correctly. If I have do I get a prize or something?

[benny balerio]

Daniel 9:24-27
God’s purpose for the people of Israel and Jerusalem

"Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city,

1. to finish the transgression,
2. to put an end to sin, and
3. to atone for iniquity,
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. to seal both vision and prophet, and
6. to anoint a most holy place.

Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.

Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

Concerning the fate of Christ after his first advent.

And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing;

Concerning the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem and the land of Canaan

and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end {for some 2,000 or so years}, there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

A prophecy concerning the end of mans’ time and a covenant that will be made with many nations and people groups and possibly also including some from Israel which will have a seven year undertaking on the part of the desolator around a 1,000 years after the redemption of the nation of Israel and possible referred to as the Time of Jacob's trouble in other OT prophecy.

And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

I hope I have answered your question correctly. If I have do I get a prize or something?

Well you started off pretty good,..until you began putting your own allegorical twist to it to fit your historicist views on the topic.
Gabriel said to Daniel (Daniel 9;24)Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression.
Daniels people are the Jewish race.
The 70 weeks represent a 490 year period of time.
The command was given and 483 years to the exact day,..the Lord Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a little donkey(The day of thier Visitation)
The first 483 years was without the Bride,....the coming last 7 years of the 70 week prophecy will be without the Bride too,...and the 70 week prophecy is exclusively designed by the Lord towards the Jewish race to bring them to salvation.
And this prophecy will occur prior to the Millennium reign of Jesus Christ on this earth.(Not after the Millennium as you claim.)

Sorry but no tacos for you...no prize

[Jay Ross]

benny

I see four separate and independent prophecies in these four verses and as such we should allow them to speak for themselves.

Now with regards to the chronology of the Old Testament and when things occurred, we need to be careful as Bishop Ussher's chronology has a number of flaws in its calculations and is in all probability out by up to 100 years. Because of this error I place little credence on the accepted dates provided for OT historical events which from my understanding were established from Ussher's chronology of the Old Testament.

The other accepted error is that the average length of a year in OT times was 360 years but in making that statement we forget that every couple of years an additional 30 day month was added to bring the Jewish colander into line with the solar years. To correct the number of years as you have done in your post above is in error and as such misleading.

Now the Daniel 9:26b prophecy spans around 2,000 years from 70 AD to some time in our near future some 30-40 years hence such that the end of that prophecy will probably occur sometime in the decade associated with the following years, 2040-2050.

The prophecy found at Daniel 9:27 happens some time after the end of the previous prophecy Daniel 9:26b and the prophecy is silent as to when it will occur. If Revelation 20:7-10 is a guide and is describing the same event then we can assume that Daniel 9:27 will occur some 1,000 years after Israel is redeemed.

.............................................................
Well you started off pretty good,..until you began putting your own allegorical twist to it to fit your historicist views on the topic.
.............................................................................
Sorry but no tacos for you...no prize

Can I be allowed to rephrase your opening statement in your response to what i had written: -

Well you started off pretty good,. with your reply. until you began putting your own allegorical twist to it to fit your pre-trib views on the topic.

So once again we both have to take our blinkers off and really allow the scriptures we are considering to speak for themselves.

Have a great day sir.

[benny balerio]

benny

I see four separate and independent prophecies in these four verses and as such we should allow them to speak for themselves.

Now with regards to the chronology of the Old Testament and when things occurred, we need to be careful as Bishop Ussher's chronology has a number of flaws in its calculations and is in all probability out by up to 100 years. Because of this error I place little credence on the accepted dates provided for OT historical events which from my understanding were established from Ussher's chronology of the Old Testament.

The other accepted error is that the average length of a year in OT times was 360 years but in making that statement we forget that every couple of years an additional 30 day month was added to bring the Jewish colander into line with the solar years. To correct the number of years as you have done in your post above is in error and as such misleading.

Now the Daniel 9:26b prophecy spans around 2,000 years from 70 AD to some time in our near future some 30-40 years hence such that the end of that prophecy will probably occur sometime in the decade associated with the following years, 2040-2050.

The prophecy found at Daniel 9:27 happens some time after the end of the previous prophecy Daniel 9:26b and the prophecy is silent as to when it will occur. If Revelation 20:7-10 is a guide and is describing the same event then we can assume that Daniel 9:27 will occur some 1,000 years after Israel is redeemed.

.............................................................
Well you started off pretty good,..until you began putting your own allegorical twist to it to fit your historicist views on the topic.
.............................................................................
Sorry but no tacos for you...no prize

Can I be allowed to rephrase your opening statement in your response to what i had written: -

Well you started off pretty good,. with your reply. until you began putting your own allegorical twist to it to fit your pre-trib views on the topic.

So once again we both have to take our blinkers off and really allow the scriptures we are considering to speak for themselves.

Have a great day sir.

You Quote:

Now the Daniel 9:26b prophecy spans around 2,000 years from 70 AD to some time in our near future some 30-40 years hence such that the end of that prophecy will probably occur sometime in the decade associated with the following years, 2040-2050.

My Reply:
It seems that now you are changing your statements around,..you might want to look in the mirror to make sure you know what you claimed earlier.....but allow me to remind you what it was that you stated earlier.

This is what you said:
"went back to the study the scriptures more carefully and discovered that there was a gap of some 2,000 years between the third segment and the fourth segment of the statue"

My Reply:
There was not a gap between the third segment and fourth segment(Empire) of Daniel 2 pertaining to the giant statue.
History has it that the third empire was Greece and the fourth empire was the Roman Empire.
To hear your Historic claims,..it is obvious to me that you denie that Rome is involved in the interpretation of empires within the giant statue.
Daniel 7 backs up Daniel 2......................And Again America is not identified within the statue of daniel 2.

You Quote:

To correct the number of years as you have done in your post above is in error and as such misleading.

My Reply:
We hear you talking,..now how about backing it up.
Tell us now what error are you speaking of?
I myself have not discovered an error..........enlighten us with your Historisic view.

You Quote:
Now the Daniel 9:26b prophecy spans around 2,000 years from 70 AD to some time in our near future some 30-40 years hence such that the end of that prophecy will probably occur sometime in the decade associated with the following years, 2040-2050.

My reply:
Why are you giving an aproximate date from Daniel 9;26.......just exactly what are you implying here?

You Quote:
The prophecy found at Daniel 9:27 happens some time after the end of the previous prophecy Daniel 9:26b and the prophecy is silent as to when it will occur. If Revelation 20:7-10 is a guide and is describing the same event then we can assume that Daniel 9:27 will occur some 1,000 years after Israel is redeemed.

My Reply:
Why would there be a covenant confirmed after the coming millennium?..and to whom would this covenant be with?
(Be very careful with your answer)(and please do not go around the question)

[Jay Ross]

benny

It seems that you are very confused because you want to mix all the prophecies from the Book of Daniel together into a conglobation of confusion.

Listen very carefully. I said that there was a 2,000 or so year gap between when the land of the Chaldeans became desolated and devastated by the Greek empire General who had control/dominion over the land of the Chaldean and when the land became inhabited again after WW1 when the nation of Iraq was established. No mention is being made in that statement about the Land of Canaan which Israel occupied.

I also have stated that Daniel 26b spans a period of time which is also 2,000 or so years long and that in my humble opinion the end of this half verse prophecy will be sometime in the decade 2040-2050. Again the suggested 2,000 years for Daniel 9:26b has nothing to do with Daniel 2:31-45 prophecy.

The time gap in the history of the land of the Chaldeans and the people who inhabit that area of land is completely independent of the time gap in the history of the land of Canaan and the Israelites who have inhabited the land. The histories of these two people groups are independent and your suggestion that they are one and the same time period is false.

Now because the time lines in the Book of Daniel has been hidden from you does not make me wrong. It simply means that what is obvious to me is hidden to you just as the angel said it would happen until it is revealed right before us.

Now concerning your last question in your post above:

You Quote:
The prophecy found at Daniel 9:27 happens some time after the end of the previous prophecy Daniel 9:26b and the prophecy is silent as to when it will occur. If Revelation 20:7-10 is a guide and is describing the same event then we can assume that Daniel 9:27 will occur some 1,000 years after Israel is redeemed.

My Reply:
Why would there be a covenant confirmed after the coming millennium?..and to whom would this covenant be with?
(Be very careful with your answer)(and please do not go around the question)

I believe that Revelations 20:7-10 provides the answer in that the covenant is made by Satan with the people/nations at the four corners of the earth with a promise that if they go up against Mt Zion and the Saints of God and take Jerusalem then they would become God like, a bit like the promise that Satan made with Eve in the Garden of Eden, which Satan will then break forcing all the people who had entered into his covenant with him to begin worshipping him instead of G_d, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This answer does not suit the Pre-trib theorists because it does not fit their paradigm of avoidance of the times of tribulations and refining.



Have a great day Sir.

[benny balerio]

benny

It seems that you are very confused because you want to mix all the prophecies from the Book of Daniel together into a conglobation of confusion.

Listen very carefully. I said that there was a 2,000 or so year gap between when the land of the Chaldeans became desolated and devastated by the Greek empire General who had control/dominion over the land of the Chaldean and when the land became inhabited again after WW1 when the nation of Iraq was established. No mention is being made in that statement about the Land of Canaan which Israel occupied.

I also have stated that Daniel 26b spans a period of time which is also 2,000 or so years long and that in my humble opinion the end of this half verse prophecy will be sometime in the decade 2040-2050. Again the suggested 2,000 years for Daniel 9:26b has nothing to do with Daniel 2:31-45 prophecy.

The time gap in the history of the land of the Chaldeans and the people who inhabit that area of land is completely independent of the time gap in the history of the land of Canaan and the Israelites who have inhabited the land. The histories of these two people groups are independent and your suggestion that they are one and the same time period is false.

Now because the time lines in the Book of Daniel has been hidden from you does not make me wrong. It simply means that what is obvious to me is hidden to you just as the angel said it would happen until it is revealed right before us.

Now concerning your last question in your post above:

You Quote:
The prophecy found at Daniel 9:27 happens some time after the end of the previous prophecy Daniel 9:26b and the prophecy is silent as to when it will occur. If Revelation 20:7-10 is a guide and is describing the same event then we can assume that Daniel 9:27 will occur some 1,000 years after Israel is redeemed.

My Reply:
Why would there be a covenant confirmed after the coming millennium?..and to whom would this covenant be with?
(Be very careful with your answer)(and please do not go around the question)

I believe that Revelations 20:7-10 provides the answer in that the covenant is made by Satan with the people/nations at the four corners of the earth with a promise that if they go up against Mt Zion and the Saints of God and take Jerusalem then they would become God like, a bit like the promise that Satan made with Eve in the Garden of Eden, which Satan will then break forcing all the people who had entered into his covenant with him to begin worshipping him instead of G_d, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This answer does not suit the Pre-trib theorists because it does not fit their paradigm of avoidance of the times of tribulations and refining.



Have a great day Sir.

You quote:
Listen very carefully. I said that there was a 2,000 or so year gap between when the land of the Chaldeans became desolated and devastated by the Greek empire General who had control/dominion over the land of the Chaldean and when the land became inhabited again after WW1 when the nation of Iraq was established. No mention is being made in that statement about the Land of Canaan which Israel occupied.

My Reply:
Oh,..I know what you said
Your above quote is leaving out what I am disputing.....the following is what you really said.

You Quote:

From my ten plus years of considering this matter, I have come to the conclusion that the Roman Empire is not the fourth segment of the Statue in Daniel 2 and as such, went back to the study the scriptures more carefully and discovered that there was a gap of some 2,000 years between the third segment and the fourth segment of the statue and that this understanding can be found in jeremiah 50-51 for those who understand the keys to the time line of this prophecy. Jer 50-51 covers the time from the Greek Empire controlling the lands of the Chaldeans up and until Israel is redeemed by the Lord, the existance of the Roman Empire in the unfolding story of the land of the Chaldeans is a very bad understanding of this story.

My Reply:
Now allow me to piont out more clearly what I dispute in your erroneous statement.....in the following you stated:

You Quote:
I have come to the conclusion that the Roman Empire is not the fourth segment of the Statue in Daniel 2 and as such, went back to the study the scriptures more carefully and discovered that there was a gap of some 2,000 years between the third segment and the fourth segment of the statue.

My Reply:
What you are really saying here is that the Roman empire is not included in the Daniel 2 giant statue.
and yet again,..you are claiming that the fourth empire has not come to pass as of yet.

Now stop being evasive and admit tyhat is exactly what you are claiming.

You Quote:
also have stated that Daniel 26b spans a period of time which is also 2,000 or so years long and that in my humble opinion the end of this half verse prophecy will be sometime in the decade 2040-2050. Again the suggested 2,000 years for Daniel 9:26b has nothing to do with Daniel 2:31-45 prophecy.

My Reply:
The fourth empire of Daniel 2(Giant Statue the two legs) were and are the Old Roman Empire
Daniel 7...speaks of the fourth beast/ten toes......the reason Daniel is describing a fourth beast is to point out "A way of political rule",....that these ten toes/horns,...the world will be ruled in the same authoritarian fashion as coming from the Old Roman Empire.
Daniel 9;26 states in part the following:

and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The people of the roman empire did destroy the temple and the city in 70ad.
But also take notice that this prince is still to come who has been identified as the coming ac.
and the people again I point out were from the Roman Empire which was ruled from its headquarters "Rome"
So it is that the Ac will come from a revived Roman Empire.

You Quote:
The prophecy found at Daniel 9:27 happens some time after the end of the previous prophecy Daniel 9:26b and the prophecy is silent as to when it will occur. If Revelation 20:7-10 is a guide and is describing the same event then we can assume that Daniel 9:27 will occur some 1,000 years after Israel is redeemed.


My Reply:
Hmmmmm,....You should try re-evaluating Daniel 9:27 again,..Allow me to explain why.
First let's read Daniel 9;27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

First of all,..what you are attempting to get others to believe on this forum is,...that the Lord would allow satan to attack His Elect for 3 1/2 years.
Second,..You are claiming that satan is identified as the anti-christ at the end of the millennium.
I guess next you will claim that the false prophet will be around at the end of the millinium?

Third the question that I should pose upon you is,...If the Lord Jesus allowed temple sacrifice to continue in the millennium for a thousand years,..then why would he allow satan to stop the sacrifices?

There is much more that I could point out,...but I think your reply would be interesting indeed.

[Jay Ross]

benny

I believe that I have suggested previously that Iraq is the nation that makes up the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue and that the Coalition of the Willing is the fifth segment.

Daniel 2:44-45: - And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever; 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold.

It is my view that in the days of the kings of the member nations of the Coalition of the Willing the Messianic Kingdom will be established and that Israel will be the first fruits of that kingdom when they are redeemed.

Now you have asked a question

...................................................

My Reply:
Hmmmmm,....You should try re-evaluating Daniel 9:27 again,..Allow me to explain why.
First let's read Daniel 9;27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

First of all,..what you are attempting to get others to believe on this forum is,...that the Lord would allow satan to attack His Elect for 3 1/2 years.
Second,..You are claiming that satan is identified as the anti-christ at the end of the millennium.
I guess next you will claim that the false prophet will be around at the end of the millinium?

Third the question that I should pose upon you is,...If the Lord Jesus allowed temple sacrifice to continue in the millennium for a thousand years,..then why would he allow satan to stop the sacrifices?

There is much more that I could point out,...but I think your reply would be interesting indeed.

The question is, "Who is the one who goes out to the nations to make a covenant with many? Who are the ones who are offering sacrifices within the precincts of the Temple area? Could it be they are the ones who have attacked Jerusalem and either driven away the Saints of the Lord or killed those remaining within the area of Jerusalem, who are the "Saints of the Lord?" Is it not Satan who stops these sacrifices at the mid-point of this covenant agreement and commands all the people to begin worshipping him instead as the god of the earth?

I wonder if we have not over spiritualised this verse in our understanding and established the wrong conclusions.

Have a good day sir.



Jay Ross

PS: - Remember the Bible is silent on these questions and it is only conjecture on our part if we attempt to give a definitive interpretation.

[benny balerio]

benny

I believe that I have suggested previously that Iraq is the nation that makes up the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue and that the Coalition of the Willing is the fifth segment.

Daniel 2:44-45: - And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever; 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold.

It is my view that in the days of the kings of the member nations of the Coalition of the Willing the Messianic Kingdom will be established and that Israel will be the first fruits of that kingdom when they are redeemed.

Now you have asked a question

...................................................

My Reply:
Hmmmmm,....You should try re-evaluating Daniel 9:27 again,..Allow me to explain why.
First let's read Daniel 9;27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

First of all,..what you are attempting to get others to believe on this forum is,...that the Lord would allow satan to attack His Elect for 3 1/2 years.
Second,..You are claiming that satan is identified as the anti-christ at the end of the millennium.
I guess next you will claim that the false prophet will be around at the end of the millinium?

Third the question that I should pose upon you is,...If the Lord Jesus allowed temple sacrifice to continue in the millennium for a thousand years,..then why would he allow satan to stop the sacrifices?

There is much more that I could point out,...but I think your reply would be interesting indeed.

The question is, "Who is the one who goes out to the nations to make a covenant with many? Who are the ones who are offering sacrifices within the precincts of the Temple area? Could it be they are the ones who have attacked Jerusalem and either driven away the Saints of the Lord or killed those remaining within the area of Jerusalem, who are the "Saints of the Lord?" Is it not Satan who stops these sacrifices at the mid-point of this covenant agreement and commands all the people to begin worshipping him instead as the god of the earth?

I wonder if we have not over spiritualised this verse in our understanding and established the wrong conclusions.

Have a good day sir.



Jay Ross

PS: - Remember the Bible is silent on these questions and it is only conjecture on our part if we attempt to give a definitive interpretation.

You Quote:
I believe that I have suggested previously that Iraq is the nation that makes up the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue and that the Coalition of the Willing is the fifth segment.

My Reply:
Iraq never was a fourth empire...your imagination is running wild.
Jeremiah 49-50 never even hinted that Iraq would become a empire in the future,..and it definately was not a fourth empire.
Allow me to ask you a question,.....are you claiming that all of Iraq today will become ten horns?
Are you not aware that in the days ahead that northern Iraq will be in possession by Israel(Greater Israel)?

You Quote:
The question is, "Who is the one who goes out to the nations to make a covenant with many? Who are the ones who are offering sacrifices within the precincts of the Temple area? Could it be they are the ones who have attacked Jerusalem and either driven away the Saints of the Lord or killed those remaining within the area of Jerusalem, who are the "Saints of the Lord?" Is it not Satan who stops these sacrifices at the mid-point of this covenant agreement and commands all the people to begin worshipping him instead as the god of the earth?

My Reply:
ANTICHRIST: Applying the accepted rule of interpretation and observing the text for the nearest antecedent of the pronoun he (without bias or influence by other "experts"), this he most closely parallels the prince who is to come in the previous passage (Daniel 9:26). This is the conclusion reached by most conservative evangelical commentaries, who go on to identify him as the Little Horn (Antichrist) who "came up among the (10) horns" of the fourth beast (fourth kingdom ~ "Revived Rome") chapter 7 of Daniel (Da 7:8,11-note Da 7:20, 21-note).

With the many - In context refers to the Jews (or Israel) and is not a general reference to any group. Furthermore, because these Jews will carry out sacrifices, the implication is that these are unbelieving Jews. Any Jews who were genuine believers at this time would recognize that the Cross represent the one sacrifice for all time (He 10:12-note, cf He 10:14-note, He 9:12-note).
http://preceptaustin.org/daniel_927.htm#9:27
Once again,...The 70 weeks are exclusively about the Jewish race(Daniels people)
This Daniel 9;27 prophecy is definately not an event at the end of the millennium as you believe.

You Quote:
I wonder if we have not over spiritualised this verse in our understanding and established the wrong conclusions.

My Reply:
Do not put me in that basket,...I do not spiritualize literal prophecy

[Douggg]

Unfortunately, as exposed by history, the Roman Empire had no dominion over the People who lived in the Land of the Chaldeans, which is the focus of the Daniel 2 prophecy,....

Jay, I don't read the focus of the Daniel 2 prophecy as a prophecy directed at the future of the land of the Chaldeans.

Also if we consider Jeremiah 50-51 account of the last two segments of Daniel 2’s statue prophecy he provides a different perspective/understanding of the unfolding events in Daniel’s statue prophecy. Jeremiah 50-51 indicates to us that there is a 2,000 plus year gap between the Greek dominance over the Land of the Chaldeans and the establishment of a new kingdom/nation in that land. Jeremiah 50-51 also tells us when the legs and the feet of the statue will be visible on the Lord’s timeline of prophesied events.

Personally, I think Jeremiah 50-51 was about the defeat of the Babylonian empire back in the day. I do agree, however, there are parts in Jeremiah 51 that suggests application to the end times, perhaps will be a result of the Gog/Magog destruction.

I don't think that Jeremiah 50-51 alters there being 4 distinctive metals in the Daniel 2 statue representing 4 distinctive empires. The demarcation between the gold, silver, bronze (Greek), iron is pretty obvious that the 4th empire is different from the Greek empire.

I think in Daniel 8, where the little horn comes out of one of the four break up kingdoms, has to be post Greek Empire. Being out of one of those four break up kingdoms, imo, it is talking about the geographic location of where the Antichrist will be from..... within the end times Roman Empire.

Now since Jeremiah 50-51 does not mention a Roman Empire link for the nations/kingdom dominating this narrative, may I humbly suggest that the proposition presented in the opening post to this thread is poorly conceived and is not supported within the framework of Biblical prophecy. Nor is it s sign for these times for what God is presently doing and allowing to unfold.

We are all entitled to our opinions....

Doug

[Jay Ross]

Doug

I have not responded to Benny's last post nor will I respond to the bait which you have dangled before me.

As you have said we are all entitled to our own opinions of our understanding of the Statue Prophecy in Daniel 2.

Now I am happy to be proved wrong within the next 40-50 years when the end of this present age should occur and I am reminded of this passage from Joel of what will happen at that time: -

Joel 3:1-8: - 3:
1 "For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat, and I will enter into judgment with them there, on account of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations, and have divided up my land, 3 and have cast lots for my people, and have given a boy for a harlot, and have sold a girl for wine, and have drunk it.

4 "What are you to me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the regions of Philistia? Are you paying me back for something? If you are paying me back, I will requite your deed upon your own head swiftly and speedily. 5 For you have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried my rich treasures into your temples. 6 You have sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks, removing them far from their own border. 7 But now I will stir them up from the place to which you have sold them, and I will requite your deed upon your own head. 8 I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the sons of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, to a nation far off; for the Lord has spoken."

Please note in this passage no mention is made of the Roman Empire as being responsible for the demise of Israel around 70 AD. God identifies the people responsible as being from the Greek Empire of which the Roman Empire is a subset of, being one of the four segments that came into existence after the death of Alexandra the Great that rose to pre-eminence at that time and overcame the other three segments/arms of the Greek Empire.

Now I would be happy to read the history of the Roman Empire theory as being the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue to see how and when it developed and how it has been sustained since then.

Do you know of it Doug and if so would you mind presenting it?

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Ready1]

Does anyone see Nebuchadnezzar's vision in Daniel 2 and Daniel's dream in Daniel 7 as a revelation of the Kingdoms of the earth which have dominion over Israel. Nebuchadnezzar's vision is from the human perspective where the Kingdom's of the earth are a beautiful thing...gold, silver, brass, and iron. While Daniel's dream show's how God views the Kingdoms of the earth...their character is likened to savage beasts.

Any thoughts?

[Jay Ross]

Does anyone see the Nebuchadnezzar's vision in Daniel 2 and Daniel's dream in Daniel 7 as a revelation of the Kingdoms of the earth which have dominion over Israel. Nebuchadnezzar's vision is from the human perspective where the Kingdom's of the earth are a beautiful thing...gold, silver, brass, and iron. While Daniel's dream show's how God views the Kingdoms of the earth...their character is likened to savage beasts.

Any thoughts?

Ready1

You have posed a very good question and I will respond with my understanding and views.

The Statue prophecy found in Daniel 2:31-45 makes no mention of or reference to Israel or the land of Canaan in the prophecy. It does however have a time event link with the prophecy found in Daniel 7. That time link being when the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom will occur. In Daniel 2 we are clearly told that {Daniel 2:44} “in the days of those kings {associated with the fifth segment of the statue, namely the feet and the toes}, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it, {the messianic Kingdom}, shall stand forever.”

In Daniel 7 we are told that of an event that happens in heaven when a judgement is made against the four beast in this prophecy which reads: -

Daniel 7:9-12: - 9 As I looked,
thrones were placed
and one that was ancient of days took his seat;
his raiment was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames,
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came forth from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words which the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Now no mention is made in Daniel 7:1-8 of these beasts specifically coming against Israel or the Saints of God. It does tell us that the people of the earth inhabited the persona of these beasts and subsequently oppressed and because people inhabited these beasts the beasts were able to devour much flesh up and until the time of the judgement against them.

We are told in Daniel 7 that the fourth and terrible beast spoke great things before it was killed.

The passage that follows the Judgement of the four beast in Daniel 7:9-12 gives us the only time link with Daniel 2:31-45 and it reads as follows: -

Daniel 7:13-14: - and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
14 And to him was given dominion
and glory and kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

The time event link is the establishment of an everlasting Kingdom by the Ancient of Days/God.

It is not until after this event in Daniel 7 that we are told that : -

Daniel 7:17-22: - 17 'These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.'

19 "Then I desired to know the truth concerning the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrible, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze; and which devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet; 20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints, and prevailed over them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints received the kingdom.

In Revelations we are told that the “fourth beast which was thought to have been killed previously, rises again and lives for a further period of time.

During this further period of time Daniel is told the follow will occur: -

Daniel 7:23-27: - 23 "Thus he said: 'As for the fourth beast,
there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,
which shall be different from all the kingdoms,
and it shall devour the whole earth,
and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
24 As for the ten horns,
out of this kingdom
ten kings shall arise,
and another shall arise after them;
he shall be different from the former ones,
and shall put down three kings.
25 He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, two times, and half a time.
26 But the court shall sit in judgment,
and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end.
27 And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'

In this passage of Daniel 7 we are told that the “Fourth Beast” shall go after the Saints of the most High. Now it is my view and understanding that Daniel 7 is written in chronological order of the recorded events occurring and as such, the “fourth Beast” goes after the Saints just prior to the final Judgement of the God where he gives Dominion of the earth to the Saints of the most High.

Now you may well ask where does Daniel 9:26b fit into this story.

Allow me to tell the story this way: -

God had warned the Israelite Nation that if they did not obey His statutes then they would be scattered to the four corners of the earth. This scattering comes about because Israel played the harlot with Idols from the time that they entered into their Covenant with the Lord to be a nation of Priests before the Lord and this iniquity of the first 2,000 or so years of Israel’s existence was visited on them for the next 2,000 or so years of their existence until such time that they repented and the Lord Redeems them unto Himself. This event is still to happen just as the establishment of the everlasting kingdom is a near future event.

Daniel 12:7 tells us that all these “wonders” will happen over a time period of some 3,500 years and as of yet we have not yet reached the 2,500 or so year mark as I make this post.

Jesus also tells us in Luke 14:31-32 that they will see Him afar off and will ask for His terms of peace because they will only understand who He is at that point in their history of existence. This event is still a near future event.

Previously in posts in this thread, I have suggested that Iraq was the fourth kingdom/statue segment of the Daniel 2:31-45 prophecy and that the Coalition of the Willing is the fifth segment of the same statue. Iraq as a nation is heavily influenced, IMHO, by the fourth and terrible beast which manifests itself as Islam.

Daniel 9:27, IMHO, has a strong event/time link with Daniel 7:23-27 and Revelation 20:7-10.

It is also my view and understanding that The time of Jacob’s Trouble is also linked with these three passages.

I trust that this explanation is useful for you to ponder.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[benny balerio]

Does anyone see the Nebuchadnezzar's vision in Daniel 2 and Daniel's dream in Daniel 7 as a revelation of the Kingdoms of the earth which have dominion over Israel. Nebuchadnezzar's vision is from the human perspective where the Kingdom's of the earth are a beautiful thing...gold, silver, brass, and iron. While Daniel's dream show's how God views the Kingdoms of the earth...their character is likened to savage beasts.

Any thoughts?

Ready1

You have posed a very good question and I will respond with my understanding and views.

The Statue prophecy found in Daniel 2:31-45 makes no mention of or reference to Israel or the land of Canaan in the prophecy. It does however have a time event link with the prophecy found in Daniel 7. That time link being when the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom will occur. In Daniel 2 we are clearly told that {Daniel 2:44} “in the days of those kings {associated with the fifth segment of the statue, namely the feet and the toes}, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it, {the messianic Kingdom}, shall stand forever.”

In Daniel 7 we are told that of an event that happens in heaven when a judgement is made against the four beast in this prophecy which reads: -

Daniel 7:9-12: - 9 As I looked,
thrones were placed
and one that was ancient of days took his seat;
his raiment was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames,
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came forth from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words which the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Now no mention is made in Daniel 7:1-8 of these beasts specifically coming against Israel or the Saints of God. It does tell us that the people of the earth inhabited the persona of these beasts and subsequently oppressed and because people inhabited these beasts the beasts were able to devour much flesh up and until the time of the judgement against them.

We are told in Daniel 7 that the fourth and terrible beast spoke great things before it was killed.

The passage that follows the Judgement of the four beast in Daniel 7:9-12 gives us the only time link with Daniel 2:31-45 and it reads as follows: -

Daniel 7:13-14: - and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
14 And to him was given dominion
and glory and kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

The time event link is the establishment of an everlasting Kingdom by the Ancient of Days/God.

It is not until after this event in Daniel 7 that we are told that : -

Daniel 7:17-22: - 17 'These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.'

19 "Then I desired to know the truth concerning the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrible, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze; and which devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet; 20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up and before which three of them fell, the horn which had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and which seemed greater than its fellows. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints, and prevailed over them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints received the kingdom.

In Revelations we are told that the “fourth beast which was thought to have been killed previously, rises again and lives for a further period of time.

During this further period of time Daniel is told the follow will occur: -

Daniel 7:23-27: - 23 "Thus he said: 'As for the fourth beast,
there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth,
which shall be different from all the kingdoms,
and it shall devour the whole earth,
and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
24 As for the ten horns,
out of this kingdom
ten kings shall arise,
and another shall arise after them;
he shall be different from the former ones,
and shall put down three kings.
25 He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;
and they shall be given into his hand
for a time, two times, and half a time.
26 But the court shall sit in judgment,
and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end.
27 And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey them.'

In this passage of Daniel 7 we are told that the “Fourth Beast” shall go after the Saints of the most High. Now it is my view and understanding that Daniel 7 is written in chronological order of the recorded events occurring and as such, the “fourth Beast” goes after the Saints just prior to the final Judgement of the God where he gives Dominion of the earth to the Saints of the most High.

Now you may well ask where does Daniel 9:26b fit into this story.

Allow me to tell the story this way: -

God had warned the Israelite Nation that if they did not obey His statutes then they would be scattered to the four corners of the earth. This scattering comes about because Israel played the harlot with Idols from the time that they entered into their Covenant with the Lord to be a nation of Priests before the Lord and this iniquity of the first 2,000 or so years of Israel’s existence was visited on them for the next 2,000 or so years of their existence until such time that they repented and the Lord Redeems them unto Himself. This event is still to happen just as the establishment of the everlasting kingdom is a near future event.

Daniel 12:7 tells us that all these “wonders” will happen over a time period of some 3,500 years and as of yet we have not yet reached the 2,500 or so year mark as I make this post.

Jesus also tells us in Luke 14:31-32 that they will see Him afar off and will ask for His terms of peace because they will only understand who He is at that point in their history of existence. This event is still a near future event.

Previously in posts in this thread, I have suggested that Iraq was the fourth kingdom/statue segment of the Daniel 2:31-45 prophecy and that the Coalition of the Willing is the fifth segment of the same statue. Iraq as a nation is heavily influenced, IMHO, by the fourth and terrible beast which manifests itself as Islam.

Daniel 9:27, IMHO, has a strong event/time link with Daniel 7:23-27 and Revelation 20:7-10.

It is also my view and understanding that The time of Jacob’s Trouble is also linked with these three passages.

I trust that this explanation is useful for you to ponder.

Shalom

Jay Ross

You Quote:
Previously in posts in this thread, I have suggested that Iraq was the fourth kingdom/statue segment of the Daniel 2:31-45 prophecy and that the Coalition of the Willing is the fifth segment of the same statue. Iraq as a nation is heavily influenced, IMHO, by the fourth and terrible beast which manifests itself as Islam.

My Reply:
So after writing your long post,..your above quote is what you are attempting to claim............NOT!
There is so much error in your statement.

Psalms 83/isaiah 17;1 reveals that the inner ring nations that touch Israels borders today are destroyed by Israel and Isreal becomes very wealthy.Israel will obtain a small slice of Egypt,..all of Jordan,...all of Lebanon,..all of syria,...Northern Iraq,..and 1/3rd of Saudi arabia..........this is the land that God promised Abrahams descendants in Genesis 15.
After this coming war,...Israel will be dwelling in peace and safety carelessly,....this is a requirement of Ezekiel 38;11-14
The reason that none of the nations mentioned in Psalms 83 are not at all mentioned in Ezekiel 38 are because they were already destroyed by Israel,....when the Eszekiel 38 (Gog-Magog) battle comes to pass,...The Lord Himself will destroy all the outer ring islamic nations that were involved in the attack against Israel...all but 1/6th along with Russia.

Now from scripture,..I do not see where Islam wil be in any position to dictate the affairs of man.
Your interpretation is in great error.

Somebody give me an AMEN!

[Jay Ross]

Benny

I have responded to the questions asked by Ready1 and presented my views. It is up to him to sift through what I have presented in my last post and for him to ask for clarification of what I have written.

Your response to my post is that I am just wrong based on your understanding of the scriptures. you even claimed the following in your post above: -

You Quote:
Previously in posts in this thread, I have suggested that Iraq was the fourth kingdom/statue segment of the Daniel 2:31-45 prophecy and that the Coalition of the Willing is the fifth segment of the same statue. Iraq as a nation is heavily influenced, IMHO, by the fourth and terrible beast which manifests itself as Islam.

My Reply:
So after writing your long post,..your above quote is what you are attempting to claim............NOT!
There is so much error in your statement.

Psalms 83/isaiah 17;1 reveals that the inner ring nations that touch Israels borders today are destroyed by Israel and Isreal becomes very wealthy.Israel will obtain a small slice of Egypt,..all of Jordan,...all of Lebanon,..all of syria,...Northern Iraq,..and 1/3rd of Saudi arabia..........this is the land that God promised Abrahams descendants in Genesis 15.
After this coming war,...Israel will be dwelling in peace and safety carelessly,....this is a requirement of Ezekiel 38;11-14
The reason that none of the nations mentioned in Psalms 83 are not at all mentioned in Ezekiel 38 are because they were already destroyed by Israel,....when the Eszekiel 38 (Gog-Magog) battle comes to pass,...The Lord Himself will destroy all the outer ring islamic nations that were involved in the attack against Israel...all but 1/6th along with Russia.

Now from scripture,..I do not see where Islam wil be in any position to dictate the affairs of man.
Your interpretation is in great error.
Somebody give me an AMEN!

When my wife read you post her immediate reaction was, "What is he on about, can he not see the influence that Islam is already having on the affairs of man. Does he not understand what is presently happening?"

Now I am Glad that you referred to Genesis 15 because hidden in that Chapter is a reference to Islam and the great iniquity that it is causing within the world today. This was prophesied some 4,000 years before it happened. The same verse also tells us when Abraham's descendant would return to the land under their own power and without any direct help from God but that little fact is hidden by the "Technical Translation" which is masking the true intended meaning of just one word from us. Something, I believe, that is spoken about in Daniel.

Now Genesis 15:17-21 is a prophecy that when it happens confirms an even bigger covenant promise that is found in

Genesis 15:7-11: - 7 And he said to him, "I am the Lord who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you the {total entity of the earth} to possess." 8 But he said, "O Lord God, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" 9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a she-goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 And he brought him all these, cut them in two, and laid each half over against the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

Now I am unsure as to when this confirmation prophecy will/has happened as it could be argued that during King Solomon reign, Abraham's descendants had been given the land as spelt out in Genesis 15:17-21. I am also willing to accept/consider your suggestion that this is the land that Abraham's descendants will occupy for a prolonged period of time during the Millennium Age.

But this is moving away from the two questions that Ready1 asked forum members to comment/write on.

I am sure that Ready1 would be willing to read your views and understandings as such if you posted them in response to his two questions. Now if your views and understandings are based on other peoples’ views and understandings then that notation would also be useful.

My expressed views and understandings in my post above are, as far as I know, not supported by others as of yet. That does not mean that they are wrong as you are suggesting. It only means that they are radically different and people need to get their laughing matter around the ideas that I have presented and to then draw their own conclusions as to whether or not the thesis, as presented, is valid.

You scriptural references in your last post above IMHO does not argue against what I have posted or disprove my thesis' validity.

Have a great day Benny.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[benny balerio]

Benny

I have responded to the questions asked by Ready1 and presented my views. It is up to him to sift through what I have presented in my last post and for him to ask for clarification of what I have written.

Your response to my post is that I am just wrong based on your understanding of the scriptures. you even claimed the following in your post above: -

You Quote:
Previously in posts in this thread, I have suggested that Iraq was the fourth kingdom/statue segment of the Daniel 2:31-45 prophecy and that the Coalition of the Willing is the fifth segment of the same statue. Iraq as a nation is heavily influenced, IMHO, by the fourth and terrible beast which manifests itself as Islam.

My Reply:
So after writing your long post,..your above quote is what you are attempting to claim............NOT!
There is so much error in your statement.

Psalms 83/isaiah 17;1 reveals that the inner ring nations that touch Israels borders today are destroyed by Israel and Isreal becomes very wealthy.Israel will obtain a small slice of Egypt,..all of Jordan,...all of Lebanon,..all of syria,...Northern Iraq,..and 1/3rd of Saudi arabia..........this is the land that God promised Abrahams descendants in Genesis 15.
After this coming war,...Israel will be dwelling in peace and safety carelessly,....this is a requirement of Ezekiel 38;11-14
The reason that none of the nations mentioned in Psalms 83 are not at all mentioned in Ezekiel 38 are because they were already destroyed by Israel,....when the Eszekiel 38 (Gog-Magog) battle comes to pass,...The Lord Himself will destroy all the outer ring islamic nations that were involved in the attack against Israel...all but 1/6th along with Russia.

Now from scripture,..I do not see where Islam wil be in any position to dictate the affairs of man.
Your interpretation is in great error.
Somebody give me an AMEN!

When my wife read you post her immediate reaction was, "What is he on about, can he not see the influence that Islam is already having on the affairs of man. Does he not understand what is presently happening?"

Now I am Glad that you referred to Genesis 15 because hidden in that Chapter is a reference to Islam and the great iniquity that it is causing within the world today. This was prophesied some 4,000 years before it happened. The same verse also tells us when Abraham's descendant would return to the land under their own power and without any direct help from God but that little fact is hidden by the "Technical Translation" which is masking the true intended meaning of just one word from us. Something, I believe, that is spoken about in Daniel.

Now Genesis 15:17-21 is a prophecy that when it happens confirms an even bigger covenant promise that is found in

Genesis 15:7-11: - 7 And he said to him, "I am the Lord who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you the {total entity of the earth} to possess." 8 But he said, "O Lord God, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" 9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a she-goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 And he brought him all these, cut them in two, and laid each half over against the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when birds of prey came down upon the carcasses, Abram drove them away.

Now I am unsure as to when this confirmation prophecy will/has happened as it could be argued that during King Solomon reign, Abraham's descendants had been given the land as spelt out in Genesis 15:17-21. I am also willing to accept/consider your suggestion that this is the land that Abraham's descendants will occupy for a prolonged period of time during the Millennium Age.

But this is moving away from the two questions that Ready1 asked forum members to comment/write on.

I am sure that Ready1 would be willing to read your views and understandings as such if you posted them in response to his two questions. Now if your views and understandings are based on other peoples’ views and understandings then that notation would also be useful.

My expressed views and understandings in my post above are, as far as I know, not supported by others as of yet. That does not mean that they are wrong as you are suggesting. It only means that they are radically different and people need to get their laughing matter around the ideas that I have presented and to then draw their own conclusions as to whether or not the thesis, as presented, is valid.

You scriptural references in your last post above IMHO does not argue against what I have posted or disprove my thesis' validity.

Have a great day Benny.

Shalom

Jay Ross

I would guess that it is safe to assume that you are in denial that Psalms 83/Isaiah 17;1 is very soon to occur,....and that Ezekiel 38 also is very soon to occur before Daniels 70th week begins,...but yet,..these prophecies are very much in plain site before our very eyes.
And I am very aware about Islam today,...But I believe the Word of God in the above prophecies I mentioned.
The prophecies are discernable to realize the dynamic implications on the earth for mankind.
I also realize that there is enough scripture to discern, that there is a strong chance that the Bride will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air prior to this coming war that is now brewing in the middle east.


It seems that when we do the math,..we begin to realize that we are on the edge of eternity.
I strongly sense that we will be going home to be with the Lord extremely soon.
There are some things that I would like to point out.
When we read the book of Daniel 9;24.......we see the words..."Your people"(referring to Daniels people the Jewish race.)
In the meantime,..the Lord is gathering a people from among the gentile nations.
But when the "Fullness of the Gentiles" has come in,...we know that the Lord will come to take His Bride home.
Then afterward,....we know that Russia and the outter Islamic nations will attempt to attack Israel, and that the Lord will destroy the invading armies.
But take notice,...that in Ezekiel 38;14...it states:
"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it?"
What I want to point out here are the words...."My People"
We know that after the rapture, that the Lord will turn His attention back to His People(The Jewish race).

But when we read 1 Thessalonians 5;3...we observe the following:
What stands out are the words..."They"......"Them"...and...."They"
It is as though this indicates the Bride was not around when these words were proclaimed by the world.
I believe that the beginning era of when the world and Israel will carelessly believe that they are now at peace,is when the following prophecies come to pass.
The thing about this though, is that there is strong indiction that it may very well come to pass before this year has expired.read the following link:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=61543

In the Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 prophecy,..I believe that Israel will obtain the land that God had promised abraham.
The following are those involved in the Psalms 83 war,...and keep in mind that these have confederated together.
The tribes mentioned in Psalms 83 are the inner ring of Islamic nations that are today, preparing to attack Israel.
These nations are not involved in the Ezekial 38 battle.
Tents of Edom-Palestinians and So.Jordanians
Ishmaelites-Saudis(Ishmael father of arabs)
Moab-Palestinans and central Jordanians
Hagrites-Hagnarenes-Egyptians
Gebal-Hezbollah and No. Lebanese
Ammon-Palestinans and No.Jordanian
Amalek-Arabs of the Sinai area
Philistia-Hamas of the Gaza Strip
Tyre-Hezbollah and So. Lebanese
Assyria-Syrians and Northern Iraq's
I believe that Damascus Syria will be destroyed the same time as when Psalms 83 occurs.
Israel has a Motto towards their enemies...."NEVER AGAIN!!!"
It just so happens that these nations make up the land that is promised to Abrahams descendants,...this will consist of a small slice of Egypt,....All of Lebanon,...all of Syria.....Northern Iraq..... 1/3rd of Saudi Arabia....and all of Jordan(This explains the flight to petra and the mountainous region, when Israel flees in the A.O.D.)
(The Daniel 11 prophecy has it that Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand,while on the other hand we see that Edom, Moab and Ammon are involved in the fight against Israel,rather than being delivered by his hand.)

Again as we can see,..the 10 leaders of Daniel 7 are now present,and Hal Lindsey agrees with this in the following link:
08-05-2011 http://www.hallindsey.com/videos/ (He talks about it in the second half of his program)
It seems that these ten are officially here on the world scene and we know that these ten will eventually give their power and authority over unto the beast.

OK,...with all this mentioned,...the following is what I am trying to point out.
In Psalms 83;3,....we read the following:
3With cunning they conspire against your people;they plot against those you cherish.

There it is again!........"Your People"
There is a strong possibilty that we the Bride,..may be going home extremely soon,..I believe that we are on the edge of eternity.

Another reason that I believe that the rapture will ocur prior to the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17;1 war,...is that ther are christians that live in Damascus,Syria,.........And God would not destroy Sodom until Lot and his family were out of harms way.

You Quote:
When my wife read you post her immediate reaction was, "What is he on about, can he not see the influence that Islam is already having on the affairs of man. Does he not understand what is presently happening?"

My Reply:
And can she not see what is about to happen?...and I do very much understand what is now happening.

[Jay Ross]

Benny,

I would suggest that it is not safe to assume that I am “in denial that Psalm 83/Isaiah 17:1 is very soon to occur,....and that Ezekiel 38 also is very soon to occur before Daniel’s 70th week begins,” as I agree with you that the above events are on our horizon. The issue that I have with your thesis is when these events will occur.

The question that I have asked myself is, “Is the prophecy found in Ezekiel 38 occurring as a result of Daniel’s 70th week?” The understanding that I have come to is that the prophecy found at Ezekiel 38 is occurring as a direct result of the Daniel 9:27 prophecy which is retold by the Apostle John at Revelation 20:7-11.

Now it is my understanding that there are two battles/God confrontations that occur separated by around 1,000 years. The first one is the Armageddon Event which is in my view a near future event that will happen sometime in the next 30 to 40 years if we are to believe the time line presented in scripture.

The Ezekiel 38 prophesied battle, the Gog/Mogog attack against Jerusalem is in my view still a distant future event and yes even now we are on the edge of Eternity but as of yet we have not reached the point where that edge is discernible.

In your statement in your post above you made the following claim: -

I also realize that there is enough scripture to discern, that there is a strong chance that the Bride will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air prior to this coming war that is now brewing in the middle east.

but provided no scriptural evidence to support such a claim that “the Bride” will be caught up before these coming wars.

Benny, you may believe that we will be going home to be with the Lord extremely soon but that is IMHO not supportable by scripture. It is just your opinion based on a false theory on scripture.

You then make mention in your post that: -

... when the "Fullness of the Gentiles" has come in,...we know that the Lord will come to take His Bride home.

which is a reference to the following verse in Romans

Romans 11:25-26: - Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved;

where there is no mention of a bride found with the first reference in the letters found at 2 Corinthians 11 and then four times in the book of Revelation.

Now it is my view that Roman 11:25 has been poorly translated to match the notion of first the gentile Christians must be saved before Israel can be save but I would like to suggest to you that the verse actually suggest something else and is better translated like so: -

Romans 11:25-26: - Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the the time of the Gentiles is complete, after which all Israel will be saved;

which keeps harmony with the prophecy in Daniel 8 concerning the time of the Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary.

The research I have done on this topic suggests that 2,300 days and nights can be considered to be 2,300 full days which in Daniel 9 a day is attributed to a year so that the prophecy is about a time span of 2,300 years and it is not until all of the 2,300 years of the Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary have been completed that all Israel will be saved.

Now the “traditional” translation could be taken to mean that when Israel is redeemed and saved that there will be no more “Gentile Christians saved.” That in my view is false based on the following passage from Isaiah.

Isaiah 2:1-4: - The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

It shall come to pass in the latter days
that the mountain of the house of the Lord
shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
and shall be raised above the hills;
and all the nations shall flow to it,
and many peoples shall come, and say:
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob;
that he may teach us his ways
and that we may walk in his paths."
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more.

Now you make reference to 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and I will quote that verse in context from two translations: -

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11: - But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
[b]NKJV

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11: - But as to the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. When people say, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. For those who sleep sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.
RSV

You then claim that

But when “we” read 1 Thessalonians 5;3...we observe the following:
What stands out are the words..."They"......"Them"...and...."They"

It is as though this indicates the Bride was not around when these words were proclaimed by the world.

I believe that the beginning era of when the world and Israel will carelessly believe that they are now at peace, is when the following prophecies come to pass.

The thing about this though, is that there is strong indication that it may very well come to pass before this year has expired.

which it would appear is your view and is not IMHO supported by the quoted scripture above.

Now if the “Rapture”/“Disappearance of the Bride” does not happen as you suggest before the end of this year, then what will you theorise that it will happen next year because your theory was out by one year or the year after, or the year after that?

Now just because Hal Lindsey agrees with your claim that “the 10 leaders of Daniel 7 are now present,” does not add support to your claimed timeline.

It is our differing understanding as to when these events all take place that seems to be the base for your claim that what I am posting is in critical error. I know that I hold my timeline of the end time events very lightly and as such I have not attempted to nail down the time to a definite year as you have down in your post above but I am happy to suggest a possible respective period in time when they will occur.

I am not afraid of the time of tribulation as this is what Jesus told us would happen continually because we base our very existence on the foundational Truth that he is the Son of God and that Through Him we will receive our salvation if we believe. In fact, I am already in the tribulation right now because of what I believe and speak.

Have a great day Benny

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Ready1]

Jay, it a privilege to discuss this with you. I don't have as much time as some do to post but I will post as I can. One of your opening statements I am in complete agreement with.

The Statue prophecy found in Daniel 2:31-45 makes no mention of or reference to Israel or the land of Canaan in the prophecy.

Your statement is correct, but we must remember why Daniel and his people are in the land of Babylon. It all goes back to sin and unwillingness for the people of Israel to humble themselves and worship the God of their fathers. Several passages prophecy plainly in advance of Daniel's time as to what the Lord will do and why he will do it.

2Ki 21:12 So I, the LORD God of Israel, will bring such a disaster on Jerusalem and Judah that everyone who hears about it will be stunned.
2Ki 21:13 I will punish Jerusalem as I did Samaria, as I did King Ahab of Israel and his descendants. I will wipe Jerusalem clean of its people, as clean as a plate that has been wiped and turned upside down.
2Ki 21:14 I will abandon the people who survive, and will hand them over to their enemies, who will conquer them and plunder their land.
2Ki 21:15 I will do this to my people because they have sinned against me and have stirred up my anger from the time their ancestors came out of Egypt to this day."

He restates this again several times.

2Ki 23:26 But the LORD's fierce anger had been aroused against Judah by what King Manasseh had done, and even now it did not die down.
2Ki 23:27 The LORD said, "I will do to Judah what I have done to Israel: I will banish the people of Judah from my sight, and I will reject Jerusalem, the city I chose, and the Temple, the place I said was where I should be worshiped."

2Ki 24:3 This happened at the LORD's command, in order to banish the people of Judah from his sight because of all the sins that King Manasseh had committed,
2Ki 24:4 and especially because of all the innocent people he had killed. The LORD could not forgive Manasseh for that.

Prior to this, the Lord had told who He would use to judge his people

2Ki 20:14 Then the prophet Isaiah went to King Hezekiah and asked, "Where did these men come from and what did they say to you?" Hezekiah answered, "They came from a very distant country, from Babylonia."
2Ki 20:15 "What did they see in the palace?" "They saw everything. There is nothing in the storerooms that I didn't show them."
2Ki 20:16 Isaiah then told the king, "The LORD Almighty says that
2Ki 20:17 a time is coming when everything in your palace, everything that your ancestors have stored up to this day, will be carried off to Babylonia. Nothing will be left.
2Ki 20:18 Some of your own direct descendants will be taken away and made eunuchs to serve in the palace of the king of Babylonia."

Finally he records the several incursions into the land by the Babylonian army which fulfills these prophecies.

2Ki 24:15 Nebuchadnezzar took Jehoiachin to Babylon as a prisoner, together with Jehoiachin's mother, his wives, his officials, and the leading men of Judah.
2Ki 24:16 Nebuchadnezzar deported all the important men to Babylonia, seven thousand in all, and one thousand skilled workers, including the blacksmiths, all of them able-bodied men fit for military duty.


2Ki 25:1 Zedekiah rebelled against King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonia, and so Nebuchadnezzar came with all his army and attacked Jerusalem on the tenth day of the tenth month of the ninth year of Zedekiah's reign. They set up camp outside the city, built siege walls around it,
2Ki 25:2 and kept it under siege until Zedekiah's eleventh year.
2Ki 25:3 On the ninth day of the fourth month of that same year, when the famine was so bad that the people had nothing left to eat,
2Ki 25:4 the city walls were broken through. Although the Babylonians were surrounding the city, all the soldiers escaped during the night. They left by way of the royal garden, went through the gateway connecting the two walls, and fled in the direction of the Jordan Valley.
2Ki 25:5 But the Babylonian army pursued King Zedekiah, captured him in the plains near Jericho, and all his soldiers deserted him.
2Ki 25:6 Zedekiah was taken to King Nebuchadnezzar, who was in the city of Riblah, and there Nebuchadnezzar passed sentence on him.
2Ki 25:7 While Zedekiah was looking on, his sons were put to death; then Nebuchadnezzar had Zedekiah's eyes put out, placed him in chains, and took him to Babylon.
2Ki 25:8 On the seventh day of the fifth month of the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylonia, Nebuzaradan, adviser to the king and commander of his army, entered Jerusalem.
2Ki 25:9 He burned down the Temple, the palace, and the houses of all the important people in Jerusalem,
2Ki 25:10 and his soldiers tore down the city walls.
2Ki 25:11 Then Nebuzaradan took away to Babylonia the people who were left in the city, the remaining skilled workers, and those who had deserted to the Babylonians.

Are we in agreement that the people of Israel are in the land of Babylon because of sin and judgement? If we are then lets move ahead.

[Jay Ross]

Jay, it a privilege to discuss this with you. I don't have as much time as some do to post but I will post as I can. One of your opening statements I am in complete agreement with.

The Statue prophecy found in Daniel 2:31-45 makes no mention of or reference to Israel or the land of Canaan in the prophecy.

Your statement is correct, but we must remember why Daniel and his people are in the land of Babylon. It all goes back to sin and unwillingness for the people of Israel to humble themselves and worship the God of their fathers. Several passages prophecy plainly in advance of Daniel's time as to what the Lord will do and why he will do it.

.............................................

Are we in agreement that the people of Israel are in the land of Babylon because of sin and judgement? If we are then lets move ahead.

Hello Ready1,

It is good to be able to discuss a topic without prejudice or the need to defend ones views.

Yes it is good to understand the reasons for God’s judgements against the Southern Kingdom, Judah, but we must be able to separate the “sins” and the “punishments” that are being spoken about in the scriptures that you have quoted. The references you have provided above in your response to my post speak of two periods of time.

The first period of time is when Judah is exiled from the land for 70 years in Babylon because Judah did not keep the seventh year of rest for the land or the Jubilee Years if my memory serves me right. Judah was given seventy years of rest. Jeremiah 25:1-14 describes this period well.

The second period of time is when Israel is sold off into slavery for some 2,000 years because of her continued idolatry after Jerusalem is sacked by the roman Empire in 70 C.E.. During this period Israel will be scattered to the four corners of the earth to fulfil the prophecy given to Jacob: - Genesis 28:14-15: - “and your descendants shall be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and by you and your descendants shall all the families of the earth bless themselves. 15 Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done that of which I have spoken to you.”

There is even a prophecy contained within the Ten Commandment, Exodus 20:4-6, which speaks of this 2,000 or so year period but that understanding has been hidden because of the “Traditional” understanding/interpretation which has been the “accepted” understanding for many years because the scholars way back then before Christ’s visitation could not perceive that their iniquity of idolatry would result in them being disbursed out of God’s sight because of “who” they were. You quoted passages 2 Kings 21:12-15, 23:26-27 and 24:3-4 which speaks of this outcome which occurred in 70 CE.

That having been said, I do agree that the Kingdom of Judah was taken off to Babylon because of their sin against God.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Ready1]

Hi Jay, I have a couple of more questions.

1. Would you be able to agree that the Lord sent the Northern Kingdom into captivity because of their sins? I would site the following scripture.

2Ki 17:6 which was the ninth year of the reign of Hoshea, the Assyrian emperor captured Samaria, took the Israelites to Assyria as prisoners, and settled some of them in the city of Halah, some near the Habor River in the district of Gozan and some in the cities of Media.
2Ki 17:7 Samaria fell because the Israelites sinned against the LORD their God, who had rescued them from the king of Egypt and had led them out of Egypt. They worshiped other gods,
2Ki 17:8 followed the customs of the people whom the LORD had driven out as his people advanced, and adopted customs introduced by the kings of Israel.
2Ki 17:9 The Israelites did things that the LORD their God disapproved of. They built pagan places of worship in all their towns, from the smallest village to the largest city.
2Ki 17:10 On all the hills and under every shady tree they put up stone pillars and images of the goddess Asherah,
2Ki 17:11 and they burned incense on all the pagan altars, following the practice of the people whom the LORD had driven out of the land. They aroused the LORD's anger with all their wicked deeds
2Ki 17:12 and disobeyed the LORD's command not to worship idols.
2Ki 17:13 The LORD had sent his messengers and prophets to warn Israel and Judah: "Abandon your evil ways and obey my commands, which are contained in the Law I gave to your ancestors and which I handed on to you through my servants the prophets."
2Ki 17:14 But they would not obey; they were stubborn like their ancestors, who had not trusted in the LORD their God.
2Ki 17:15 They refused to obey his instructions, they did not keep the covenant he had made with their ancestors, and they disregarded his warnings. They worshiped worthless idols and became worthless themselves, and they followed the customs of the surrounding nations, disobeying the LORD's command not to imitate them.
2Ki 17:16 They broke all the laws of the LORD their God and made two metal bull-calves to worship; they also made an image of the goddess Asherah, worshiped the stars, and served the god Baal.
2Ki 17:17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters as burnt offerings to pagan gods; they consulted mediums and fortunetellers, and they devoted themselves completely to doing what is wrong in the LORD's sight, and so aroused his anger.
2Ki 17:18 The LORD was angry with the Israelites and banished them from his sight, leaving only the kingdom of Judah.
2Ki 17:19 But even the people of Judah did not obey the laws of the LORD their God; they imitated the customs adopted by the people of Israel.
2Ki 17:20 The LORD rejected all the Israelites, punishing them and handing them over to cruel enemies until at last he had banished them from his sight.
2Ki 17:21 After the LORD had separated Israel from Judah, the Israelites made Jeroboam son of Nebat their king. Jeroboam caused them to abandon the LORD and led them into terrible sins.
2Ki 17:22 They followed Jeroboam and continued to practice all the sins he had committed,
2Ki 17:23 until at last the LORD banished them from his sight, as he had warned through his servants the prophets that he would do. So the people of Israel were taken into exile to Assyria, where they still live.

2.

The references you have provided above in your response to my post speak of two periods of time.

Often I see prophecy as a "near view/far view" thing. I will not quibble over this point because both scriptures demonstrate that God judged Judah for their sin. I would tend to see both of these scriptures as pertaining to Babylon in the "near view" and possibly the destruction in 70 CE as the "far view". But once again, I will not quibble.

3. After the Northern Kingdom was taken into captivity, is there any scripture that would indicate that they have ever, as a people, returned to Israel? Which also brings about a corollary question...Does anyone but God know who they are?

4. Can we say that the Kingdom of Judah was taken off to Babylon because of their sin against God and the Kingdom of Israel (the Northern Kingdom) was taken to Assyria because of their sin against God?

(I really am going somewhere with these questions... )

[Jay Ross]

Ready1

It seems that you are asking questions which also seem like statements as well for a particular position that you want to set out for others to consider.

Hi Jay, I have a couple of more questions.

1. Would you be able to agree that the Lord sent the Northern Kingdom into captivity because of their sins? I would site the following scripture.

Yes, that is what the bible states.

2.

The references you have provided above in your response to my post speak of two periods of time.

Often I see prophecy as a "near view/far view" thing. I will not quibble over this point because both scriptures demonstrate that God judged Judah for their sin. I would tend to see both of these scriptures as pertaining to Babylon in the "near view" and possibly the destruction in 70 CE as the "far view". But once again, I will not quibble.

If you look carefully, two of the passages were in response to their idolatry while the third passage was because the king had shown his treasures to the Babylonian King. If you consider the scripture from Exodus 20:4-6 God said that the iniquity of idolatry of the fathers would be visited onto their children and their children’s children in the third and the fourth {unknown time period but I would suggest that it is an age, i.e. a little over 1,000 years in length.}. If the Hebrew word OT 8029, as found in Exodus 20:6, is best understood to have the meaning of the third 1,000 or so year period, then this passage points to a future time some 2,000 or so years after Isaac was born when the Iniquity of the fathers would be visited onto the children and that the duration of this visitation of their iniquity would last for a little longer than 2,000 or so years.

3. After the Northern Kingdom was taken into captivity, is there any scripture that would indicate that they have ever, as a people, returned to Israel? Which also brings about a corollary question...Does anyone but God know who they are?

I have not looked at this question nor attempted to answer it.

4. Can we say that the Kingdom of Judah was taken off to Babylon because of their sin against God and the Kingdom of Israel (the Northern Kingdom) was taken to Assyria because of their sin against God?

The scriptures tell us that this is so.

Now because we do not have a ready record of the history of the descendants of the Northern Kingdom the fulfilment of the Exodus 20:4-6 prophecy is not known nor are we aware of the outcome for those who did not return to Jerusalem after the 70 years of exile.

We can only conclude that God would have been true to His word with them as well.

(I really am going somewhere with these questions... )

I know. You will tell us when you are ready1

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Douggg]

Hi Jay,

Joel 3:1-8: - 3:
1 "For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat, and I will enter into judgment with them there, on account of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations, and have divided up my land, 3 and have cast lots for my people, and have given a boy for a harlot, and have sold a girl for wine, and have drunk it.

4 "What are you to me, O Tyre and Sidon, and all the regions of Philistia? Are you paying me back for something? If you are paying me back, I will requite your deed upon your own head swiftly and speedily. 5 For you have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried my rich treasures into your temples. 6 You have sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks, removing them far from their own border. 7 But now I will stir them up from the place to which you have sold them, and I will requite your deed upon your own head. 8 I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the sons of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, to a nation far off; for the Lord has spoken."

Please note in this passage no mention is made of the Roman Empire as being responsible for the demise of Israel around 70 AD. God identifies the people responsible as being from the Greek Empire of which the Roman Empire is a subset of, being one of the four segments that came into existence after the death of Alexandra the Great that rose to pre-eminence at that time and overcame the other three segments/arms of the Greek Empire.

Part of that prophecy was near term and part is end times.

It does not mention either the Roman Empire or the Greek Empire. The Greeks were buyers of the philistines selling of Jews into slavery. it doesn't mean that the Greeks were an empire at the time. This would have been during the period when the northern and southern two kingdoms were in exile. As far as the philitines looting, I don't know if that is referring to temple, synagogues, or the collective wealth of the Israelites at the time.

Since the little horn comes out of one of 4 break up kingdoms, the Greek Empire cannot be the final empire of the Daniel 2 statue. I don't think that the Roman Empire could be considered one of those break up empires - as the four break-up kingdoms did not go far enough west to include Italy and Rome.

So we have to consider what does it mean that he little horn comes out of one of those breakup kingdoms, and still be of the people who destroyed the temple and city (Jerusalem). I think what we are looking at is the geographical area of one of the four breakup kingdoms that would be situated within the borders of the end times Roman Empire. That narrows down where the Antichrist will be from.

Now I would be happy to read the history of the Roman Empire theory as being the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue to see how and when it developed and how it has been sustained since then.

Briefly, the old Roman Empire faded out of existence around 400 AD. Then got a face lift as the Holy Roman Empire because of Charlemagne (a German) who had Pope Leo declare him as emperor, as a marriage between state and religion (the RCC). That went on for a while, then it was "officially" ended by Napoleon. Ever since, there is the unofficial version of the Holy Roman Empire as the European politicians have been hooked up with the Vatican, in a mutual benefit relationship, as it exists today. The political side is the EU, while the religious side is the Vatican.

At the latter stage of the Antichrist's career, his power based EU ten kings will get tired of having to accommodate the Vatican and will burn it to the ground.

Doug

[Jay Ross]

Doug

Thanks for your response.

I know the historical history that you presented but what I was asking for was the unfolding story of the theory that the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue was the Roman Empire.

What I was asking was: -

Who proposed this theory?
Why was the theory proposed?
Why and how this theory has persisted to this present time?

Have a great day Doug

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Douggg]

Doug

Thanks for your response.

I know the historical history that you presented but what I was asking for was the unfolding story of the theory that the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue was the Roman Empire.

What I was asking was: -

Who proposed this theory?
Why was the theory proposed?
Why and how this theory has persisted to this present time?

Have a great day Doug

Shalom

Jay Ross

Hi Jay, I don't know. Personally, I was influenced by Jack van Impe and Hal Lindsey shorty after becoming a Christian.

Doug

[Jay Ross]

Doug,

If you do not know the answers to the questions I asked in my post above, then, how can you argue that your view of the Roman Empire being the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue is therefore correct?

I know from my understanding of scripture that the views I have been presenting have a scriptural bases. Also we are some 600 plus years further along God's time line of events from the time of the reformation and can see more of the revealed story to base our calls/views on.

Scripture informs us that the Land of the Chaldeans lay desolated and devasted for a period of some 2,000 years after the domination of the land by the greek Empire before it come back to life and became inhabited again. Our historical record also supports this understanding. The land was restored and the nation of Iraq was formed in the Land of the Chaldeans after WW1.

Also, the nation of Iraq was overpowered by a coalition of nations that entered the land after 20/11 that matches the prophetic description that is found in the Daniel 2 prophecy.

Now you could argue that the major contributor to the army that invaded Iraq came from people who had at one time links to the Roman Empire because that country's imigrants came from countries that the Roman Empire had dominion over but IMHO that is drawing a ver long bow to make that case.

Have a great day Doug

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Douggg]

Doug,

If you do not know the answers to the questions I asked in my post above, then, how can you argue that your view of the Roman Empire being the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue is therefore correct?

Hi Jay, I don't know who invented the wheel either, but there are four on my truck.

My view is not based upon a historic bible prophecy teacher. The understanding of the end times bible prophecies is a dynamic process that continues to clarify as we get closer to the day. I believe my view to be correct because it is validated by different passages lending themselves to the same conclusions, coupled with historical events, near and long past.


Doug

[Jay Ross]

Doug

So be it. Confirmation will be available in a few years time when God's prophetic words for this present time period are fulfilled. I am not sure though that the Rapture spoken so often about is for this present time period.



Shalom

Jay Ross

[Ready1]

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