Is the AC Islamic and/or Gog?

[1whowaits]

I believe this is a pertinent question considering that a confrontation between at least some of the muslim nations and Israel appears likely in the near future. Are the coming attacks by muslim nations of Israel armageddon, or are they something else?

I will attempt to present the negative view and the reasoning behind it considering scripture, that the AC is not Islamic nor is he Gog of Gog-Magog fame.

perhaps the starting place regarding whether the AC is Islamic would be to consider the basic tenets of Islam- that there is no God but Allah, no partner, no son, no equal, and that Muhammed is his prophet. If one does not accept this, one is not of Islam. Considering this, what does scripture indicate regarding the AC and 'gods'?

Dan 11 does appear to discuss the AC, the king who exalts himself. Part of Dan 11 discusses events around the time of Antioch Epiphanes who appears to prefigure the AC in what he does, and many consider the transition from discussing AE to discussing the AC to occur at vs 36, that vs 36 -45 refer to the AC. But as vs 35 refers to the time of the end, the exact point of separation between what AE did and what the AC will do may overlap, the AC may repeat some of the acts of Antioch Epiphanes.

Dan 11 states- 'The king will do as he pleases and will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard of things agains tht God of gods.' Dan 11 clearly indicates that the king, the AC, will set himself over and above all gods, he will magnify himself above every god, which would include Allah. The AC does not make himself equal with any god such as Allah, the AC sets himself over all gods including Allah.

Some have indicated that the Mahdi can be a perfect human perhaps of a divine nature accordinng to Islamic writings, but the AC goes beyond any equality with Allah or any god, the AC sets himself over every god, he presents himself as superior. This would go against the tenets of Islam, not only is there no equal to Allah, there certainly is no one superior to Allah, which the AC clearly contradicts.

This by itself, the AC setting himself over and above Allah, would rule out the AC as being Islamic.

Dan 11 indicates that the AC sets himself over the god of Gods, which would be Yaweh, which in the Islamic mind is the God of Abraham, and is also called Allah. Muslims consider Yaweh and Allah to be the same entity, and the AC sets himself over both, again contrary to the basic tenets of Islam.

Dan 11 further states that the AC 'will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women.' If the AC were muslim, the gods of his fathers could be a reference to those gods the Arab peoples believed in before mohammed and Islam, gods which the AC shows no regard for. If a muslim were asked who the god or gods of his fathers were, the likely answer would be Allah. In any case it appears that the AC does not have nay regard for the god or gods of his fathers, which if he were Islamic, would likley include Allah (unless the AC were a convert to Islam- unlikely for the Mahdi).

The 'one desired by women' appears to be a reference to Jesus, which Islam regards higly as a prophet. Showing no regard for Jesus, even for a muslim, would not appear to be consistent with Islam.

Dan 11 then states -'nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all' (again totally inconsistent with Islam). And then Dan 11 states something which appears contradictory- 'Instaed of them, he will honor a god of fortresses (forces), a god unknown to his fathers he will honor with gold and silver..'

The AC shows no regard for any god and yet he honors a god of forces, how can that be? would that not be a contradiciton? Perhaps, unless the AC is part of, or joined with, the god of forces.

[1whowaits]

According to Dan 11, the god of forces appears to be a real entity with real power who helps the AC conquer fortresses- 'He will attack the mightiest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who aknowledge him'. In Rev 13 it is the dragon, Satan, who gives the AC his authority and power and throne. It would appear unlikely that Satan would just give his power and authority to a mere man without some ability to control that man. So it is likely that there is a merging between Satan and the AC, by possession or some other means.

So it would appear that the god of forces is likely Satan, that there is some type of merging between the AC and Satan, so that the god the AC honors is Satan, and in a sense the AC honors himself, as the AC has the authority and power of Satan and is likely possessed by Satan. By honoring the god of forces the AC can honor Satan and himself, still setting himself above all other gods because he is part of the god of forces, so that there is no contradiction in Dan 11.

In any case, honoring Satan and exalting oneself above all other gods including Allah, would be contrary to Islam. Also the god of forces is called a 'foreign god', suggesting that the AC had not been previously acquainted with the god of forces. Allah would not be a 'foreign god' to the Mahdi, suggesting that Allah is not the god the AC honors and confirming that the AC is not Islamic.

Dan 11 then indicates that the AC engages in battle the king of the south, the mostly muslim nations of Africa, and the AC will invade many countires including Egypt, a muslim nation, and cause the Lybians and Nubians, muslims, to submit to him. Why would the muslim savior, the Mahdi, need to war against and conquer muslim nations, as the AC does? And this passage is referring to the AC and not AE, the reference is to the time of the end, which was not the time of AE.

Dan 11 also states of the AC- 'He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.' The beautiful, holy mountain is mount Zion, in Jerusalem, between the Med and dead seas. The AC comes to his end in the area of Jerusalem, Joel 3 and Zech 14 place armageddon in the area of Jerusalem, Rev 19 indicates that the AC meets his end at armageddon, confirming that Dan 11 is discussing the end of the AC.

The AC meets his end at Jerusalem, the AC sets himself up as god in the temple in Jerusalem at the AOD, the AC kills the 2 witnesses in Jerusalem. Jerusalem is also called Sodom and Egypt in scripture, and the description of Babylon in Rev 17, the city that rules the world that the AC hates, is most consistent with Jerusalem. It appears that the AC makes the holy mountain, Jerusalem, the place of his royal tents, the place that he rules from.

The city that the AC is repeatedly associated with is Jerusalem, not Mecca nor Medina, the holiest cities of Islam. If the AC is a muslim, why is he most intimately associated with a Jewish city? Why does he rule from a Jewish city? Why does he set himself up as god in a Jewish temple in a Jewish city?

I believe the strongest case is for the AC being Jewish, he rules from Jerusalem, he confirms a covenant with the 'many', apparently Jews, the covenanat that is confirmed for 7 years is most likely the Old Covenant (the only covenant strengthened every 7 years as commanded by Moses was the Old Covenant), in Dan 11 the AC corrupts with flattery those who violate the covenant and shows favor to those who forsake the holy covenant( he is involved with stopping aspects of the Old Covenant and corrupting those who will not follow the covenant, he acts as though the Old Covenant has some validity- otherwise why bother?). In Zech 11 it appears that the AC is referred to as the 'worthless shepherd', a shepherd being a leader of Israel.

The presentation of the AC in scripture is not consistent with the AC being Islamic. The AC performs acts that are completely contrary to Islam, even to the point of attacking Islamic nations and elevating himself above all gods including the only god of Islam, Allah. And the AC appears to involve himself significantly with the Jerusalem, apparently making it his capital city, and the AC appears to be involved with the Jewish Old Covenant, not the acts typical of one who is the main leader of Islam.

[1whowaits]

As far as Gog and the AC being the same individual, there are significant differences between the 2 noted in scripture. Gog is the leader of a limited number of mostly Islamic nations, while the AC is described as having authority over 'all nations' and who gathers 'all nations' to armageddon, all nations being indicated repeatedly (Joel 3, Zech 14, Rev 19).

The AC is associated with a prophet, the FP, and is associated with 10 kings. Gog is associated with a limited number of nations but no other individuals are ever mentioned with him.

Gog comes against Israel to loot and plunder while the AC not only loots Jerusalem (Zech 14), he gathers the kings of the world (and their armies) against the King of Kings, the rider on the white horse, Jesus (Rev 19).

The AC receives power and authority from Satan, power that would be supernatural, power which is not associated with Gog.

Gog is buried with his troops in a valley east of Jerusalem it what would be a mass grave. The AC is captured at armageddon and cast alive with the FP into the Lake of Fire, the eternal place of punishment. There is no evidence that any other being is cast into the Lake of Fire prior to the GWTJ, the final judgement, the timing of this punishment is unique to the AC and FP, and is not described for Gog.

The differnces between Gog and the AC are significant, and from the statements in Dan 11 the AC is not Islamic, and from other passages the AC does not lead an army limited to the muslims, the AC leades and gathers all nations. Gog on th e other hand does appear to lead a mostly Islamic army, and may himself be Islamic as Islamic nations follow him, although this is not stated in scripture.

It would then appear that the likely coming attack by a limited number of muslim nations upon Israel is not armageddon, and their leader is not the AC, the AC is not Islamic.

[Spreading Salt]

As usual 1WW, nicely laid out.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Gog is buried with his troops in a valley east of Jerusalem it what would be a mass grave. The AC is captured at armageddon and cast alive with the FP into the Lake of Fire, the eternal place of punishment. There is no evidence that any other being is cast into the Lake of Fire prior to the GWTJ, the final judgement, the timing of this punishment is unique to the AC and FP, and is not described for Gog.

Let's look at all the passages that speak of the demise of the "beast" and compare them with what scripture says is the demise of "Gog".

2 Thessalonians 2:8-10
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Daniel 7:11
11 “Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.

These two passages say that the beast/ lawless one is slain- Daniel especially makes this clear.Yet here in Revelation it appears that the beast is captured alive and thrown alive into the lake of fire. Is this a contradiction?

Revelation 19:20
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Now let's look at Gog's end:

Ezekiel 38:21-23
21 “I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains,” declares the Lord God. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother.
22 “With pestilence and with blood I will enter into judgment with him; and I will rain on him and on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone.
23 “I will magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the Lord.” ’

Ezekiel 39:11
11 “On that day I will give Gog a burial ground there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea, and it will block off those who would pass by. So they will bury Gog there with all his horde, and they will call it the valley of Hamon-gog.

Gog is killed and buried.

The passage in Revelation would appear to contradict what the other passages say about the demise of the "beast". But Daniel in the interpretation concerning his vision of the beast explains

Daniel 7:25-27
25 ‘He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
26 ‘But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 ‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

The court sits for judgment, the body that the beast occupies on earth will be killed/destroyed, then he will be resurrected to stand for judgment. Remember that the beast is more than just a man- he is a spiritual being that comes up from the abyss:

Revelation 11:7
7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

Revelation 17:8
8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

The Revelation also sheds light on who it is that will have gone to war against the Lord, who the survivors will be. Those who repopulate the earth are called by the Lord "Gog and Magog". They will be the descendants of the nations that go against the Lord and survive into the millennium. It makes sense that these people at the end of the millennium would be called Gog and Magog if they are in fact the descendants of those who will have fought against the Lord at Armageddon.

Revelation 20:7-8
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

We know that there will be survivors because Zechariah tells us:

Zechariah 14:16
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

So there is no contradiction in revelation, the "beast" and false prophet will first be be killed and they will be apprehended at their resurrection to stand for judgment and will be condemned and thrown alive into the lake of fire.

Also I believe the seeming differences between the Antichrist and Gog can also be accounted for. The Gog Magog war doesn't start at Armageddon, it begins earlier I believe sometime just prior to the midpoint of the 70th week. Initially Gog is just as any other man would be, he leads a smaller contingent against those in Jerusalem. A careful reading of the OT prophets shows that this initial battle will route those Israelites in Jerusalem, some will go into exile because of it, others will be killed and persecuted. This is brought about in order to chastise Israel, to purify them and cause them to turn to God. I believe at some point Gog will be fatally wounded in this initial conflict and he will die, but the beast who comes up out of the pit will bring life back to this individual's body. The soul of that man will no longer be human, but will actually be demonic, and that will be what causes the world to follow after him and worship him and to relinquish their authority to him as their leader. However this is speculation on my part, I may be wrong about this, there are still some things I am confused about concerning the nature of the beast. In any case though, even if I am wrong about that bit, the war of Gog/Magog may have many battles, and may last several years, culminating with the gathering of the troops at the battle of Armageddon. The man called Gog may undergo a change in position, even if not a physical/spiritual change, from a military leader of a smaller contingent of nations, to a world leader who gathers many nations to the final battle at Armageddon.


RT

[shorttribber]

Wow....good stuff RT sure makes a lot of sense, and agrees 100% with what scripture has to say about it

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Here's something interesting that I have found concerning the beast, perhaps I am reading too much into this, you guys can tell me what you think:

Daniel 7:23-24
23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
24 ‘As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings

The word "different" here means "altered, or changed, transformed in some way", the root word implies a change in the nature of an object. Daniel uses this word cosistantly when describing the beast:

Daniel 7:7
7 “After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:19
19 “Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,

Also the word Daniel uses in verse 7- "terrifying" is translated to mean:

368 אֵימִים [’Eymiym /ay·meem/] n pr m p. Plural of 367; GK 400; Three occurrences; AV translates as “Emims” three times. 1 ancient inhabitants of Moab. Additional Information: Emims = “terrors”.

These inhabitants of Moab, the Emim are spoken of here:

Genesis 14:5
5 In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings that were with him, came and defeated the Rephaim in Ashteroth-karnaim and the Zuzim in Ham and the Emim in Shaveh-kiriathaim,

Deuteronomy 2:9-11
9 “Then the Lord said to me, ‘Do not harass Moab, nor provoke them to war, for I will not give you any of their land as a possession, because I have given Ar to the sons of Lot as a possession.
10 (The Emim lived there formerly, a people as great, numerous, and tall as the Anakim.
11 Like the Anakim, they are also regarded as Rephaim, but the Moabites call them Emim.

They are regarded as the Rephaim or the giants. Why does Daniel say that this beast is terrible, is an Emim or like the inhabitants of ancient Moab? perhaps there is something to the idea that the beast is altered in some way genetically???? I know that this is a view of some prophecy teachers. I had never really given the idea much credence, but now I am wondering if there might not be something to it. Perhaps when the Antichrist receives the fatal head wound and is brought back to life he is altered when the demon takes physical possession of his body,more than just spiritual possession but genetically speaking???

Another thing that really puzzles me is the relationship between the false prophet and the beast. The false prophet exercises all the authority of the beast when he is in his presence. He deceives those who dwell on the earth to make an image of the beast and to worship it. He gives breath and voice to the image of the beast. And causes all those who do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

Why does the false prophet exercise the authority of the beast only while in his presence? My guess is so that he does not draw attention away from the beast to himself? And why does he make an image of the beast, when the beast is himself present? Why have the world worship the image and not the beast himself? Though scripture tells us that they do in fact worship the beast. And why is this image given what appears to be life? (breath and voice) Does the image actually come to life? Is it the Image/idol that comes to life after the head receives the fatal wound? And is it this that causes the world to be amazed???

Just some thoughts and questions

RT

[1whowaits]

SS, thanks.

RT, actually the 'beast' of Dan 9 is the kingdom of the AC, the 'horn' is the AC. It is the beast, the kingdom, that is slain and cast into the fire, not the AC, in the context of Dan 7. The court of Dan 7 sits when the AC is speaking boastfully, which would place the court sitting somethime between the time of the AOD and armageddon, when the AC has his 'mouth' for 42 months in Rev 13, not after armageddon. There is no evidence that the AC is killed and then raised and the cast into the lake of fire. He goes directly to the place of eternal punishment, which does not even happen to Satan.

When interpreting prophetic scripture, it is helpful to begin with the passages that describe an event as clearly and directly as possible. In the case of Gog and the AC the scripture clearly indicates that Gog is buried in a mass grave. In the case of the AC it is Rev 19 that clearly states that the AC is captured alive and then cast into the lake of fire. There is no further judgement of the AC described, no resurrection, he is captured, he is alive when he is captured, he is then cast into the lake of fire.

When the AC is cast alive into the lake of fire, his mortal body would be consumed by the fire and would be slain, his spirit would remain in the place of eternal punishment. The AC is slain in the lake of fire, which is consistent with other scripture, but he is not slain in battle nor is he buried in the ground. Gog is apparently slain in battle and he is buried in a mass grave, he is not cast into the lake of fire as the AC is and there is no evidence that he is captured alive as the AC is.

And Gog-Magog and armageddon do not appear to be a series of connected battles. At Gog the limited number of armies gather, God sends judgement on them, Israel is then regathered to the land and God blesses them. If there were a series of battles following this Israel would not be regathered to the land as Ezek 39 describes. Gog-Magog is described as a stand alone event with a definite conclusion.

[1whowaits]

RT, i would agree that the kingdom of the AC will be 'different'. The AC is given the power, authority and throne of Satan, and the giving of this power would be at a cost to the AC, it would be unlikely that Satan would just walk away.

Satan is called the 'god of this world' suggesting that he does have great power in this world, supernatural power, power that the AC may be able to access. It appears that Satan is the most powerful of the fallen, so the fallen likely submit to him, and then to the AC who bears Satan's authority.

So the kingdom of the AC is not only of men, it is also of the fallen, the kingdom is a combination of the 2. This appears to be what is spoken of in Dan 2 of the feet of the image, the feet of iron and clay- 'just as you saw that the feet and the toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom...so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle...the people will be a mixture and will not remain united...'

The AC himself appears to be a combination of the 2, a man, and the beast that rises from the Abyss. Rev describes an angel that rises from the Abyss call Apollyon, the destroyer. In Hebrew 'beast' can be interpreted as 'living creature', the living creatures being called the 'Cherubim' in Ezekiel. Satan is called a Cherub, a Cherubim, aka living creature and 'beast'.

So it appears likely that the beast that rises from the Abyss, that is intimately associated with the AC, is Satan himself (who gives the AC his power after all). So the AC may be a template for the kingdom, a being who is a hybrid of man and fallen angel, ruling a hybrid kingdom of man and the fallen. And genetic manipulation would likely facilitate such a union, men will become like the ancient 'gods'(aka-the fallen). The 'image' of the beast, the 'exact representation', the 'prototype', could be a reference to DNA, the 'exact image' is contained in the DNA, and the AC could be the prototype for the genetic manipulation to follow.

From the beginning men have sought to be 'like God', so Satan will likely deceive them into believing that this joining will make them the 'gods' they desire to be. Which of course is the new age agenda- the next stage of human evolution is the joining of the genetic material of man with the genetic material of the ancient 'gods' who will soon return to earth, also a recurrent theme in popular culture....if they only knew.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

RT, actually the 'beast' of Dan 9 is the kingdom of the AC, the 'horn' is the AC. It is the beast, the kingdom, that is slain and cast into the fire, not the AC, in the context of Dan 7. The court of Dan 7 sits when the AC is speaking boastfully, which would place the court sitting somethime between the time of the AOD and armageddon, when the AC has his 'mouth' for 42 months in Rev 13, not after armageddon. There is no evidence that the AC is killed and then raised and the cast into the lake of fire. He goes directly to the place of eternal punishment, which does not even happen to Satan.

Perhaps I am wrong about the beast and the little horn as you say it is the body of the beast that is destroyed , however wouldn't the little horn be a part of that body? The horn grows out of the head of the beast right?

And it still doesn't explain the passage in 2 Thessalonians:

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

How do you explain that?

RT

[1whowaits]

RT, as far as the AC being destroyed at Jesus' coming, it would depend on how one viewed the spirit world. The spirit world a is not a distant place, it appears to be another plane of existence right next door. After the resurrection, Jesus could enter a locked room and just appear, likely because He could move from the spiritual realm into the physical realm. Angels can suddenly appear and then disappear, as though they go through a 'door', which likely they do, going to and from the spiritual realm.

When Jesus returns He destroys the armies with the 'sword of His mouth', apparently a force proceeds from His mouth that can cause physical destruction. Zech 14 also describes the armies as rotting where they stand, Isa 29 describes them turning to dust. How this is done is not directly stared, but as all things that are made have been made by the 'Word', and by Him all things are held together, it is likely that the Word can speak and the physical/chemical bonds that hold matter together cease to exist, and matter dissolves into elements or sub-atomic particles.

The Lake of Fire appears to be in the spiritual realm, it is not currently here on earth, but it would appear to be a gigantic area of fire. When Jesus confronts the AC at armageddon, all Jesus has to do is speak, an access point to the Lake of Fire in the spiritual realm would open, fire would envelope the AC as the force of the Word would cast the AC into the lake, and the access point would close. To those surrounding the AC, it could appear that the AC suddenly bursts into flames and is consumed by fire, disappearing from their sight, with only an ashen residue remaining.

Which is what Ezek 28 appears to desxcribe- 'So I made fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of al those who were watching.' Ezek 28 describes the king of Tyre, who appears to be a man, but is described as Satan- 'You were in Eden, the garden of God..you were anointed as guardian Cherub...so I threw you to earth...' Ezek 28 describes the fall of Satan, but associates him with a man that is consumed by fire, consistent with the demise of the AC in the lake of fire.

And there is 1 other passage that appears to describe Satan and associates him with a man, the king of Babylon, in Isa 14- 'how you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn... you said...I will make myself like the Most High...but you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword...like a corpse trampled underfoot..'

This man associated with Satan is covered by dead bodies slain in battle, he is not in a regular tomb, he is in a mass grave, which would be consistent with the demise of Gog of Magog.

Scripture describes 2 different men, the king of Tyre and of Babylon, both killed in different ways, but then with a similarity, both associated directly with Satan, described as if they were Satan. Perhaps they do appear similar because they are both taken over by the same evil entity, the internal evil one shines through the external appearance.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi 1whowaits,

I tend to agree with you, since the lake of fire exists in the spiritual realm, then whatever physical bodies the beast and false prophet abide in while on the earth will have to be destroyed, before they are brought into the spiritual realm. In other words they will have to be killed in some way, either physically or supernaturally as you have pointed out. I think it will happen supernaturally as you have said. 2 Thess 2:8 says that the Lord will slay the lawless one with the breath of His mouth, and that he will be brought to an end by the Lord's appearing. However the beast from the abyss who indwells the man of earth, is a spiritual entity, he is a real physical being that exists in the spiritual plane, he will be cast alive in the lake of fire along with the resurrected body of the false prophet, or perhaps the spiritual entity that indwells him.

RT

[watching]

Hi 1whowaits, shorttribber, RT, et al,

If you don't mind, I would like to share my two cents on this issue, although the Gog/Magog debate is not something I usually get involved in because, for one thing, I feel that there is no way that we can know for sure when this event will, in fact, take place. Because, the way I see it, there seem to be at least some evidences in scripture that would seem to point to any of at least one or more of the following three possibilities:

1) Either Gog/Magog occurs seven years prior to the end of this millennium, or......

2) it occurs at the end of this millennium and the clean up occurs for seven years into the next millennium, or.....

3) it occurs at the end of the next millennium (the thousand year reign).


There is also the question of whether the Book of Ezekiel was meant to be understood in a strict chronological order, or not.

Of course, I don't know if the book of Ezekiel was meant to be understood chronologically, or not.

However, if we at least consider the possibility that that the book of Ezekiel may have been outlining a strict chronological sequence of events, then it might benefit us to back up a little bit, and take a look at Ezekiel 36, and 37, and ask ourselves whether the events described in these chapters have actually taken place yet, or not.

Ezekiel 36

King James Version (KJV)

36 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord:

2 Thus saith the Lord God; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:

3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:

4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God; Thus saith the Lord God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;

5 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:

7 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.

8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:

10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

13 Thus saith the Lord God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.

15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord God.

16 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the Lord, and are gone forth out of his land.

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

33 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the Lord build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the Lord have spoken it, and I will do it.

37 Thus saith the Lord God; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.

38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

Ezekiel 37

King James Version (KJV)

37 The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.

4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.

5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.[/color]

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Btw, I don't mean to take this thread off topic, but it may be beneficial at this point for one to do a study on the two houses of Israel (Judah and Ephraim) that Ezekiel tells us will be joined together, and what that might represent.

Because that may offer a clue as to the timing of events, assuming, of course, the possibility that the book of Ezekiel may have been laid out in chronological order, which I'm not sure if it was, or not, but that is a possibility that should at least be considered.

Of course, this may not tell us who Gog is, but it may offer some more clues as to who Gog may, or may not, be.

So, let's now read Ezekiel 38 and 39, in light of what has just been foretold in Ezekiel 36 and 37.

Ezekiel 38

King James Version (KJV)

38 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

10 Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.

19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.

Ezekiel 39

King James Version (KJV)

39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.

14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

[Exit40]

Hi watching. There are many comparisons in the Scripture defining and explaining the times we are apparently in. Most are partial fulfillment's IMO at this point, starting with the gathering of 1948, with the final days yet to come. Here are a few..

Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.
......
Eze 36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

The Jews of today are apparently going to live in their own ways adding to their uncleanness having to go through yet another devastation to complete their punishment of seven times over for not repenting, starting in 70 AD. One that has been accomplished they must go through the period of time as of an unclean woman. Days for years that is approximately seven. They only have to do this once. The Lord is not going to require the Jews to do a repeat performance after gog/magog. Gog/magog is the initial invasion, culminating in Armageddon and Christ's return likely in a period of seven years of abominations, battles and desolation's. Other Scriptures witness to this from different perspectives and in part descriptions.

Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

How many other days does Scripture state that can equal the breadth and scope of this one ? None that I can find. The Lord lets Israel go her own way until He is angry enough to accomplish all this for His Holy Names sake not because of Israel or the rest of the world doing something right, we bring this upon ourselves because we haven't repented even though we are given the opportunity to do so in the final days. Compare the many Scriptures for yourself. I did and came to the conclusion it has to be muslim nations and Israel centered events, one time once and for all. That part over, Our Lord reigns. Thank God.

God Bless You

David

[watching]

Hi Exit 40,

Although there may be some similarities between Ezekiel 36 and 37 and Ezekiel 38 and 39, there are also some differences.

For example, in Ezekiel 36 it says:

8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:

10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

*****************************************************************************************************************************************




However, in Ezekiel 38 it says:

38 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

*****************************************************************************************************************************************

They only have to do this once. The Lord is not going to require the Jews to do a repeat performance after gog/magog.

I don't know if this is a repeat performance, or the only performance of Gog/Magog, but Gog/Magog is again mentioned in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[Exit40]

Hi watching. As I said, some of the verses have already been fulfilled, some partially, and there are some that refer to a future fulfillment, they haven't happened yet. This one really gets to me though. God pours out His Spirit on them, Jews and all of Israel, at a post gog/magog and then some time in the next seven years they fall for the ac and fp bringing desolation upon them yet again. Hard to imagine God's Spirit being rejected so easily, especially when he says He puts in them a heart of flesh, as opposed to the heart of stone they apparently have now.

Also, which Prophet is it that tells the absolute whole story of the days prior to and including Christs return ? None that I know of, except probably Revelations. Scripture witnesses to Scripture, throughout. Some events are history with a reflection to the future, some are happening now progressing slowly towards fulfillment, others are in the future and who knows for sure when they will be fulfilled. And Revelations relies on prior Prophecy for explanation. In my studies it has become apparent that the greatest events of all time will be the times just prior to our Saviors return. I'm sure we all agree about that. You know, it's all about how we as individuals interpret Scripture, by that I mean what does it say to us, line upon line, precept upon precept, building the concepts in our thoughts. We get a feeling about these things that we chase to find answers for, following what we believe we are being told. Yes we have disagreements, Scripture is still somewhat of a mystery. If it were clear we would not be having these discussions.

For me, from the first time I began to study on my own, no interference from the internet or anyone close, I believed it would be islam as the final beast empire. I began my internet studies right here at FP in '03 maybe and honestly, I couldn't agree with the RRE paradigm, still don't, but am slowly coming to a belief it will somehow be both islam and the EU involved, at the same time. Talk about many nations surrounding tiny Israel, this would most certainly cover it I think. That was the known civilized world at the time of Jesus, and I suspect the future will closely resemble that. Yet I struggle to understand what is just beyond the grasp of my mind, what I think I am being told by Scripture. Look at what is happening in Europe right now, as well as the muslim world. Something is in the wind, doncha think ? But the wind is not blowing me along, I am following my nose upwind, attempting to discern the source, as many do here.

Anyway, enough of my ramble.

God Bless You

David

[watching]

Hi Exit 40,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. And, imo, you were not rambling at all.

In fact, I think it's good to have a little background. It helps me to understand your position better and to know where you are coming from.

Anyway, in case you're interested, here's what I think.

I think the Muslim nations could very well be a part of the beast system, but only because they will, most likely, be absorbed into it.

Because, if you think about it, Babylon has already been absorbed, and so has Egypt, Persia and Assyria are about to be absorbed, as well as Greece, along with the rest of the EU.

So, that's pretty much all of the ancient empires, prior to the fourth empire, which of course, was the Roman Empire.

Of course, this does not include the Eastern Empires. But that would make sense, because, obviously, if it were not for the Kings of the East, then there wouldn't be anyone left for the beast to fight with in the battle of Armageddon, would there?

What you need to keep in mind, though, is that the original Roman Empire had two legs, an eastern leg and western leg.

Just like the statue described in Daniel 2.

Once the Muslim nations are absorbed into the beast system, only then will the beast system match the fourth empire, which, btw, never really went away completely......it just, for lack of a better term, reorganized itself over the years into various other systems, such as the Feudal System, the Holy Roman Empire, then Europe, the US, the EU, etc. (These are all off springs of the Roman Empire.)

Now, getting back to the topic at hand.

As I had said in my original post, in this thread, the Gog/Magog debate is not something I have ever gotten very involved in because I have always felt like there wasn't any way to really know for sure.

In fact, I'm not even sure why I posted this time.

I guess I was just really bored.

In any case, it definitely was not because I have done any kind of intensive research prior to posting, or anything like that.

But that's the really great thing about posting. It forces you to look into, and to delve into, things that you had never looked at before.

Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand.

The point that I was trying to make in my last post, by pointing out the differences between Ezekiel 36 and 38 is that Ezekiel 36 seems to refer to a time prior to Israel's regathering. That's why I was underlining words such as shall or will.

For example:

8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

But, if you will notice, something interesting happens in verses 24 through 28.

Verses 24 through 28 tell us WHEN Israel will be regathered.

AND IT WASN'T IN 1948, btw.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

So, verses 24 through 28 tell us that it is when Israel is regathered into the land that..........

THEN they will have a new heart, etc.


In other words, ISRAEL IS REDEEMED, WHEN ISRAEL IS REGATHERED INTO THE LAND.

This is further evidenced in verse 33:

33 Thus saith the Lord God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

So, there is no way, that I can see, that the regathering described Ezekiel 36 could be referring to Israel becoming a nation in 1948, because Israel has not yet been redeemed.


However, when you contrast this to Ezekiel 38. You see that, in Ezekiel 38, Israel has ALREADY been brought back from the sword, and gathered into the land, and most importantly THEY DWELL SAFELY and ARE AT REST.

Ezekiel 38

King James Version (KJV)

38 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

10 Thus saith the Lord God; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.

19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord.

Furthermore, if all the above scriptures weren't enough evidence to pinpoint the timing of the Gog/Magog event, then, as you said, we also have to consider the fact that scripture interprets scripture.

So, then we must ask ourselves.......

Where does the second witness to Gog/Magog, in scripture, place this event?

Because................

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Well, to answer the above question, the only other reference, that I know of, where Gog/Magog is mentioned in scriptures, is in Revelation 20.

Revelation 20:7-10

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[Exit40]

Hi watching..

So, there is no way, that I can see, that the regathering described Ezekiel 36 could be referring to Israel becoming a nation in 1948, because Israel has not yet been redeemed.

Eze 37, the Dry Bones Prophecy at the beginning of the chapter covers this first regathering to the land. Not all Israel is regathered at this point, Jews are all over the world. And the rest of ALL Israel is still missing, they don't even know who they are. I would imagine many in the Church would be a part of this large group which God calls His people. There is another scattering in Eze 38-39.

Regarding the people dwelling safely, it is my opinion that Israel will make a covenant ( with death / Islamic ME empire ) and bring on the period of FALSE safety, a covenant which the Lord will annul. Even so, today most in Israel live in relative safety and they are a growing nation. Can't be doing that if they are continually under a working sword, but a distant threat unrealized does have it's affects. Nobody wants war, it is counter productive at this point to prosperity in the region. When the covenant with death is annulled the sword goes back into action, devastation and desolation comes upon the Lord's people there, again.

So, then we must ask ourselves.......

Where does the second witness to Gog/Magog, in scripture, place this event?

Zec 12-14, Joel 3-4, Daniel 11, Revelation, practically the whole book, there are so many if read as separate Prophecies we can't see the forest for the trees, that many parts of them refer to the same thing, The days leading up to and including the return of our Savior. Notice though in Rev 20 Jerusalem and the land is not ravaged by gog/magog. They are destroyed outside the camp. The important point is satan is released to deceive, just as he is doing now with islam. These are the people who are against the God of Gods forever, their fate is sealed before they even live. It is written.

God Bless you

David

PS. I hope I am making some sense here. I am distracted by whelping pups at the moment.

[Jay Ross]

Hello

In 1948 some of Abraham's descendants returned to the land of their fathers in the hope of forcing God to honour his covenant promises to them. They did this around 4,000 years after Isaac was born very near the end of the fourth age of Abraham's descendant's existence through Isaac. In the prophecy that talks of this return of Abraham's descendants, we are told the time period by a reference to the increased iniquity of the Amorite people against God and the increase in the religion of the Amorite people becoming abomination to God which he will deal with. The religion of the Amorite people referred to, is Islam. The reason why the iniquity is yet to be complete is that Islam has not convinced all people groups/nations that the God of Abraham is defunct and that only Allah should be worshipped instead of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The fulfilling of Rev 16:12-16 can be broken down into the following: -
Fulfilled: -
1. The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up,
2. to prepare the way for the kings from the east. (Began around 1,300 years ago.)
3. And I saw, issuing from the mouth of the dragon and from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet, three foul spirits like frogs; for they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, (2001)
Presently being fulfilled: -
to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. ("Lo, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is he who is awake, keeping his garments that he may not go naked and be seen exposed!") (This phase of this prophecy will, IMHO, will take around 40 years to be completed.)
Near future: -
And they assembled them at the place which is called in Hebrew Armageddon.

Another interesting timeline marker is that there is 4,000 years from when the Temple was dedicated until the end of the summer harvest season. We presently know that only around 2,945 or so years have passed since the temple was dedicated. This means that the measured stream/river flowing out from under the Altar still has 1,055 or so years still to unfold before the last measured point along the river is reached.

Presently we are approaching the beginning of the Summer Season which will be around 90-96 years after we see the initial leaves budding on the fig tree when the descendants of Abraham with the help of people who fleetingly joined themselves to them brought back to life the cursed fig tree.

The first fruits of the fig tree will be seen at the beginning of the Summer Season when they are gathered from the four corners of the earth by the Lord.

It is my opinion that the battle of Gog is still around 1,026 years into our future and that the Daniel 9:27 covenant will not play out until around that time. Daniel 9:27 and Rev 20:8, IMHO describe the same covenantal event occurring.

In Daniel 7:9-12, IMHO, we see the driving force behind Islam being dealt with along with the false prophet when the Terrible Beast is killed and dispatched into the lake of fire. This event happens around the time of the Armageddon event. Also around this time, Satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years before he is let out for a short while. It is during this period of the “short while” that the Battle of God and Magog become an issue for the saints.

If we are looking for Christ’s permanent return to the earth in the near future, then it is my view that we will be disappointed as even Christ tells us that He will be seen afar off during the battle associated with the Armageddon event. He also told us in a parable that when He comes for his bride and goes into to her, that he will only be seen for a fleeting moment as he goes in after which time the doors will be shut.

What does this mean?

It means that too many trees have been cut down to present false teachings by false prophets to those with itchy ears.

Presently the hidden secrets of the OT timelines have not become widely known by the scholars who have studied the Holy Scriptures for them. When these secrets become understood, then the references to the End Times in the NT will also become clear to those who have understanding.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[watching]

Eze 37, the Dry Bones Prophecy at the beginning of the chapter covers this first regathering to the land.

Hi Exit40,

No offense, but.........

Says who???

I mean, I know that is what prophecy teachers "teach," but where does it say that in scripture?

I do not see anything in Ezekiel 37 about Israel becoming a nation.

Were any graves opened in 1948???

I'm sorry but I do not see any indication that Ezekiel 37 is talking about Israel becoming a nation in 1948, but I see every indication that it is talking about the RESURRECTION AND THE REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL.

Did the two houses of Israel (Judah and Ephraim) become one in 1948?

Is Israel presently being ruled by one King?

Is David their prince?

Have they been cleansed from all their transgressions?

Is God's sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore?

If not, then how could Ezekiel 37 possibly be talking about Israel becoming a nation in 1948?

So, am I supposed to believe what "bible teachers" say about Ezekiel chapter 37, or am I supposed to believe what the Word says?

No offense, but I think I will stick to believing what the Word says.

Not all Israel is regathered at this point, Jews are all over the world.

Exactly! That's my point.

There is another scattering in Eze 38-39.

Where does it say that in scripture?

Regarding the people dwelling safely, it is my opinion that Israel will make a covenant ( with death / Islamic ME empire ) and bring on the period of FALSE safety, a covenant which the Lord will annul.

Isaiah 28 says:

Isaiah 28:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

According to Isaiah, it is the SCORNFUL MEN that rule the people in Jerusalem that make a covenant
WITH DEATH (not with Israel, nor Israel with them).

Besides that, why would Israel make a covenant with death and hell, so that the scourge will overpass them?

If they knew that there was going to be a scourge, then why would they make the covenant? That does not sound like a "peace" covenant to me.

It sounds to me that those who are SCORNING, or should I say, MOCKING ( see H3944) the people in Jerusalem, ARE THE ONES MAKING THE COVENANT.

And they are making it WITH DEATH AND HELL, no less. NOT WITH ISRAEL.

Also if I'm understanding Isaiah 28:15 correctly, these scornful men are making this covenant because they think that, by doing so, the scourge (WHIPPING/CHASTISEMENT), that they apparently KNOW IS COMING, will overpass them because of the fact that they have made LIES THEIR REFUGE and because they are HIDING BEHIND their FALSEHOODS.

So, they are the ones taking refuge in THEIR OWN LIES, not Israel.

Even so, today most in Israel live in relative safety

I wouldn't try telling Benjamin Netanayhu that.

Do you call living under the threat of being wiped off the face of the earth, RELATIVE SAFETY???

When the covenant with death is annulled the sword goes back into action,

Again, where do you see this in scripture?

Where does the scripture speak of a time of peace, prior to the Lord's return?

So, then we must ask ourselves.......

Where does the second witness to Gog/Magog, in scripture, place this event?

Zec 12-14, Joel 3-4, Daniel 11,Revelation, practically the whole book,

I don't see Gog Magog mentioned in any of those scriptures, except for Revelation 20.

there are so many if read as separate Prophecies we can't see the forest for the trees, that many parts of them refer to the same thing, The days leading up to and including the return of our Savior.

Although there are many prophesies relating to the return of our Lord and Savior, that does not mean that every prophecy is about that one exact moment.

In fact, prior to the Lord's first coming, it was not even known that there would be TWO COMINGS (at least).

Nor was it understood that there would be a millennial reign.

These things were not revealed until the New Testament was written.

Notice though in Rev 20 Jerusalem and the land is not ravaged by gog/magog.

Here is what Revelation 20 says:

Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Notice that fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

This matches the description in Ezekiel 39.

Ezekiel 39:1-6

King James Version (KJV)

39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

The important point is satan is released to deceive, just as he is doing now with islam. These are the people who are against the God of Gods forever, their fate is sealed before they even live. It is written.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people against the God of Gods, not just Islam.

On a lighter note............

PS. I hope I am making some sense here. I am distracted by whelping pups at the moment.

Aaaaww that's so sweet! What kind of puppies are they?

I've been wanting a little puppy.

I've looked at some animal shelters, but I realized that I really just want a puppy, not a dog.

Or better yet a whole litter of puppies.

The only problem is that they grow up. So I guess I won't be getting one, any time soon.

[Exit40]

Hi watching. With your usual fierceness for the Word you have come up with some good questions, which I will attempt to answer honestly as I have been lead to believe.

Hi Exit40,

No offense, but.........

Says who???

I mean, I know that is what prophecy teachers "teach," but where does it say that in scripture?

I do not see anything in Ezekiel 37 about Israel becoming a nation.

Were any graves opened in 1948???

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Judah ceased as a nation state in 70 AD. That date was not specifically mentioned in Scripture, but it was foretold to happen. So why would 1948 be mentioned as a date to look forward to. We can only look back and say life came again to national Israel in 1948 with the gathering of the Jews back into their homeland. There were no actual bones that came out of graves for sinew and muscle and skin to be laid on, nor a wind that caused them to live. But there was a Spiritual wind from the four corners, which is where the Jews came from to occupy the land, breathing life into national Israel. Jews are back in their own land, just as written here and other Scriptures. How can a remnant escape the desolation coming to Israel if they are not even there ? So we know at some point they return to the land, Judah first then Ephraim. We can draw conclusions about one chapter from what other Scriptures tell us. But it does require study to put line upon line, precept upon precept, until the weight of the full Scriptures gives a picture which we then must interpret for the True meaning. Then take another picture we have studied up on and apply that with the other, and then another, and so on. The Holy Spirit reveals the more time spent in the Word.

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:

I'm sorry but I do not see any indication that Ezekiel 37 is talking about Israel becoming a nation in 1948, but I see every indication that it is talking about the RESURRECTION AND THE REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL.

Did the two houses of Israel (Judah and Ephraim) become one in 1948?

Is Israel presently being ruled by one King?

Is David their prince?

Have they been cleansed from all their transgressions?

Is God's sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore?

If not, then how could Ezekiel 37 possibly be talking about Israel becoming a nation in 1948?

The whole of the chapter covers a lot of time, from 1948 until the Resurrection and Return of Christ and beyond, when David will be their prince and they will be cleansed, and God will dwell with them forever more from that point on. This chapter seems to be an over view of the end times, not telling us all the bad things that will happen but rather the happy side of the story, that eventually we will be with God in His Kingdom.

So, am I supposed to believe what "bible teachers" say about Ezekiel chapter 37, or am I supposed to believe what the Word says?

No offense, but I think I will stick to believing what the Word says.

What teachers are you reading ? Do they confuse you with a lot of talk they don't explain ? I wouldn't follow those either, but rather stick to the Word and what I think it is telling me.

Not all Israel is regathered at this point, Jews are all over the world.

Exactly! That's my point.

Mine too! And it seems to be the point of Eze 37, a progressive Prophecy about the end times starting with Israel becoming a nation, and eventually living with God as His people, cleansed and redeemed.

There is another scattering in Eze 38-39.

Where does it say that in scripture?

I think this covers it well.

Eze 38:12-13 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places [that are now] inhabited, and upon the people [that are] gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

Regarding the people dwelling safely, it is my opinion that Israel will make a covenant ( with death / Islamic ME empire ) and bring on the period of FALSE safety, a covenant which the Lord will annul.

Isaiah 28 says:

Isaiah 28:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

According to Isaiah, it is the SCORNFUL MEN that rule the people in Jerusalem that make a covenant
WITH DEATH (not with Israel, nor Israel with them).

Besides that, why would Israel make a covenant with death and hell, so that the scourge will overpass them?

If they knew that there was going to be a scourge, then why would they make the covenant? That does not sound like a "peace" covenant to me.

It sounds to me that those who are SCORNING, or should I say, MOCKING ( see H3944) the people in Jerusalem, ARE THE ONES MAKING THE COVENANT.

And they are making it WITH DEATH AND HELL, no less. NOT WITH ISRAEL.

Also if I'm understanding Isaiah 28:15 correctly, these scornful men are making this covenant because they think that, by doing so, the scourge (WHIPPING/CHASTISEMENT), that they apparently KNOW IS COMING, will overpass them because of the fact that they have made LIES THEIR REFUGE and because they are HIDING BEHIND their FALSEHOODS.

So, they are the ones taking refuge in THEIR OWN LIES, not Israel.

Yup, the people get sold down the river while the leaders and cohorts conspire with their enemies in order to be safe when the scourge comes. It comes off as a form of peace with islam, which is , I forgot the word for their promising safety or not attacking until they have become strong enough to attack and overcome. They lie, they know it, the people are hopeful peace is here at last as the muslims appear to want peace and prosperity.

Even so, today most in Israel live in relative safety

I wouldn't try telling Benjamin Netanayhu that.

Do you call living under the threat of being wiped off the face of the earth, RELATIVE SAFETY???

As we in the US are the great satan we are living under the continuous threat of annihilation by islamic forces. Personally, I feel relatively safe. How about you ?

When the covenant with death is annulled the sword goes back into action,

Again, where do you see this in scripture?

Where does the scripture speak of a time of peace, prior to the Lord's return?

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

So, then we must ask ourselves.......

Where does the second witness to Gog/Magog, in scripture, place this event?

Zec 12-14, Joel 3-4, Daniel 11,Revelation, practically the whole book,

I don't see Gog Magog mentioned in any of those scriptures, except for Revelation 20.

Scripture has many names for the AC in different places. We still debate whether gog is another name for the AC. I believe it might be, or probably is. Still working that one out.

there are so many if read as separate Prophecies we can't see the forest for the trees, that many parts of them refer to the same thing, The days leading up to and including the return of our Savior.

Although there are many prophesies relating to the return of our Lord and Savior, that does not mean that every prophecy is about that one exact moment.

In fact, prior to the Lord's first coming, it was not even known that there would be TWO COMINGS (at least).

Nor was it understood that there would be a millennial reign.

These things were not revealed until the New Testament was written.

They had the Torah, and the Tanach. I don't know if those books were ever gathered into one place prior to Christ, but they would not have been called the Old Testament by them. They certainly have that now, and it is what the studying Jews of today use.

Notice though in Rev 20 Jerusalem and the land is not ravaged by gog/magog.

Here is what Revelation 20 says:

Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Notice that fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

This matches the description in Ezekiel 39.

Ezekiel 39:1-6

King James Version (KJV)

39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

The fire goes on magog and the coastlands and isles. But it is not the only method the Lord uses to wipe them out.

The important point is satan is released to deceive, just as he is doing now with islam. These are the people who are against the God of Gods forever, their fate is sealed before they even live. It is written.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people against the God of Gods, not just Islam.

Agreed, but none can claim a membership of one fourth the planet, nor have as their slogan allah is god and he doesn't have a son, the most antichrist message ever spread worldwide, and if necessary by the sword.

On a lighter note............

PS. I hope I am making some sense here. I am distracted by whelping pups at the moment.

Aaaaww that's so sweet! What kind of puppies are they?

I've been wanting a little puppy.

I've looked at some animal shelters, but I realized that I really just want a puppy, not a dog.

Or better yet a whole litter of puppies.

The only problem is that they grow up. So I guess I won't be getting one, any time soon.

Rat terriers, best ranch and barn dogs on the planet. Exceptional companions, nothing gets by them as watchdogs, super loyal, loving dogs. Despite their name, they are cuter than heck. Yes, they hunt rats and lots of other furry critters that don't belong around humans, the rodents and vermin our activities seem to attract. PM your email, I will send some pics if you like. Oh, got two females and two males, a culmination of 1st generation breeding. Now I can begin my 2nd generation planning with what we got today. It is indeed a happy day around here.

God Bless You watching

David

[benny balerio]

Eze 37, the Dry Bones Prophecy at the beginning of the chapter covers this first regathering to the land.

Hi Exit40,

No offense, but.........

Says who???

I mean, I know that is what prophecy teachers "teach," but where does it say that in scripture?

I do not see anything in Ezekiel 37 about Israel becoming a nation.

Were any graves opened in 1948???

I'm sorry but I do not see any indication that Ezekiel 37 is talking about Israel becoming a nation in 1948, but I see every indication that it is talking about the RESURRECTION AND THE REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL.

Did the two houses of Israel (Judah and Ephraim) become one in 1948?

Is Israel presently being ruled by one King?

Is David their prince?

Have they been cleansed from all their transgressions?

Is God's sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore?

If not, then how could Ezekiel 37 possibly be talking about Israel becoming a nation in 1948?

So, am I supposed to believe what "bible teachers" say about Ezekiel chapter 37, or am I supposed to believe what the Word says?

No offense, but I think I will stick to believing what the Word says.

Not all Israel is regathered at this point, Jews are all over the world.

Exactly! That's my point.

There is another scattering in Eze 38-39.

Where does it say that in scripture?

Regarding the people dwelling safely, it is my opinion that Israel will make a covenant ( with death / Islamic ME empire ) and bring on the period of FALSE safety, a covenant which the Lord will annul.

Isaiah 28 says:

Isaiah 28:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

According to Isaiah, it is the SCORNFUL MEN that rule the people in Jerusalem that make a covenant
WITH DEATH (not with Israel, nor Israel with them).

Besides that, why would Israel make a covenant with death and hell, so that the scourge will overpass them?

If they knew that there was going to be a scourge, then why would they make the covenant? That does not sound like a "peace" covenant to me.

It sounds to me that those who are SCORNING, or should I say, MOCKING ( see H3944) the people in Jerusalem, ARE THE ONES MAKING THE COVENANT.

And they are making it WITH DEATH AND HELL, no less. NOT WITH ISRAEL.

Also if I'm understanding Isaiah 28:15 correctly, these scornful men are making this covenant because they think that, by doing so, the scourge (WHIPPING/CHASTISEMENT), that they apparently KNOW IS COMING, will overpass them because of the fact that they have made LIES THEIR REFUGE and because they are HIDING BEHIND their FALSEHOODS.

So, they are the ones taking refuge in THEIR OWN LIES, not Israel.

Even so, today most in Israel live in relative safety

I wouldn't try telling Benjamin Netanayhu that.

Do you call living under the threat of being wiped off the face of the earth, RELATIVE SAFETY???

When the covenant with death is annulled the sword goes back into action,

Again, where do you see this in scripture?

Where does the scripture speak of a time of peace, prior to the Lord's return?

So, then we must ask ourselves.......

Where does the second witness to Gog/Magog, in scripture, place this event?

Zec 12-14, Joel 3-4, Daniel 11,Revelation, practically the whole book,

I don't see Gog Magog mentioned in any of those scriptures, except for Revelation 20.

there are so many if read as separate Prophecies we can't see the forest for the trees, that many parts of them refer to the same thing, The days leading up to and including the return of our Savior.

Although there are many prophesies relating to the return of our Lord and Savior, that does not mean that every prophecy is about that one exact moment.

In fact, prior to the Lord's first coming, it was not even known that there would be TWO COMINGS (at least).

Nor was it understood that there would be a millennial reign.

These things were not revealed until the New Testament was written.

Notice though in Rev 20 Jerusalem and the land is not ravaged by gog/magog.

Here is what Revelation 20 says:

Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Notice that fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

This matches the description in Ezekiel 39.

Ezekiel 39:1-6

King James Version (KJV)

39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

The important point is satan is released to deceive, just as he is doing now with islam. These are the people who are against the God of Gods forever, their fate is sealed before they even live. It is written.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people against the God of Gods, not just Islam.

On a lighter note............

PS. I hope I am making some sense here. I am distracted by whelping pups at the moment.

Aaaaww that's so sweet! What kind of puppies are they?

I've been wanting a little puppy.

I've looked at some animal shelters, but I realized that I really just want a puppy, not a dog.

Or better yet a whole litter of puppies.

The only problem is that they grow up. So I guess I won't be getting one, any time soon.

You Quote:
I mean, I know that is what prophecy teachers "teach," but where does it say that in scripture?

I do not see anything in Ezekiel 37 about Israel becoming a nation.

Were any graves opened in 1948???

I'm sorry but I do not see any indication that Ezekiel 37 is talking about Israel becoming a nation in 1948, but I see every indication that it is talking about the RESURRECTION AND THE REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL.

Did the two houses of Israel (Judah and Ephraim) become one in 1948?


My Reply:
Hello Watching,...Your statement above is incorrect,.....Ezekiel 37 very much reveals that it is speaking of Israel becoming a nation again.
...."
11Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel."....also....."....12....I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

Ironicly,..there are many pictures of Jews at the end of world war 2 that shows jews with just skin and bones coming out of the death camps.

Also,...Ezekiel reveals that Israel would become a nation in 1948 in the following link(God is AWESOME!)
http://israelsmessiah.com/prophecy/isra ... future.htm

You Quote:
Is David their prince?

Have they been cleansed from all their transgressions?

Is God's sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore?

If not, then how could Ezekiel 37 possibly be talking about Israel becoming a nation in 1948?

So, am I supposed to believe what "bible teachers" say about Ezekiel chapter 37, or am I supposed to believe what the Word says?

No offense, but I think I will stick to believing what the Word says.


My Reply:
Watching,...Some of the prophecies are still ongoing....patience my friend

I would say that a security agreement consisting of 7 years in length is coming in the future after the Bride is caught up,....but I do not believe that this agreement is between the arabs and Israel,...but rather Israel and the antichrist.

[watching]

Hi Exit40 and Benny,

What teachers are you reading ? Do they confuse you with a lot of talk they don't explain ? I wouldn't follow those either, but rather stick to the Word and what I think it is telling me.

The point that I'm trying to make is that I've heard the explanations........such as the ones you are giving.......many times before.

I just don't believe them.

Maybe I believed them, at one point, but I don't any more.

I guess you could say I've become sort of like the little boy in the story, the Emperor's New Suit.

But, as I said, I wasn't always that way.

I use to believe things merely because they were repeated over and over again, or explained in a certain way again and again, just like most people do. After all, it's human nature to do so.

And I'm sure.......let's just say........the "deceiver" KNOWS that. And most certainly uses that as a tactic to deceive people. And don't think for a minute that the "church" is exempt from that type of deception, whether on purpose, or otherwise.

But, as I said, I use to also believe things simply because all the "experts" were saying the same thing.

I figured they must know what they are talking about, since they're "experts." And especially since they are all saying the same thing.................even if what they were saying made no sense at all.

I just never had any reason to question it.

Believe me, I was just as naive as anyone else. Probably much more so.

In fact, it wasn't until a few years ago that I finally woke up to the reality that you can't believe what all the "experts" are saying..............especially the ones on tv or on the radio.

I guess you could say, it was at that time, that I swallowed the red pill, as they say.

But, I've also learned, since then, that you can't force the red pill on anyone else.

That is something that people have to take on their own..........if they choose to, of course.........and in their own time.

No one forced me to take it. So, I really can't force it on anyone else.

Anyway,

The point is, I still don't see anything in Ezekiel 37 about 1948.

And there is no way that I can believe, after having read the scriptures for myself, that Ezekiel 37 is talking about 1948, when it is clear, to me, that the regathering being referred to in Ezekiel 37 is the regathering that will occur
WHEN ISRAEL IS REDEEMED.

And it is AFTER this gathering has occurred................that Ezekiel 38 takes place.

As for the two house of Israel being joined, OF COURSE THAT DID NOT HAPPEN IN 1948.

In fact, as a side note, it was actually this part of the prophecy that peaked my interest initially, although, I've only just begun to do some research on this. Nevertheless, I think there is a lot more to the joining of the two houses of Israel than what appears to be on the surface. But, like I said, I haven't done a lot of research on this yet.

In any case, as you probably know Jesus descended from the tribe of Judah.

So, Judah represents the true genealogical line and tribe from which Jesus would come.

However, Joseph (which is another one of the 12 tribes) is also a prophetic representation of Christ.

As you may know, Joseph had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.

What's interesting about this is that, although Manasseh was the older of the two brothers, and Ephraim was the younger, it was nevertheless Ephraim who received the following blessing from Jacob (Israel):

Genesis 48:8-20

New International Version (NIV)

8 When Israel(A) saw the sons of Joseph,(B) he asked, “Who are these?”

9 “They are the sons God has given me here,”(C) Joseph said to his father.

Then Israel said, “Bring them to me so I may bless(D) them.”

10 Now Israel’s eyes were failing because of old age, and he could hardly see.(E) So Joseph brought his sons close to him, and his father kissed them(F) and embraced them.(G)

11 Israel(H) said to Joseph, “I never expected to see your face again,(I) and now God has allowed me to see your children too.”(J)

12 Then Joseph removed them from Israel’s knees(K) and bowed down with his face to the ground.(L) 13 And Joseph took both of them, Ephraim on his right toward Israel’s left hand and Manasseh on his left toward Israel’s right hand,(M) and brought them close to him. 14 But Israel(N) reached out his right hand and put it on Ephraim’s head,(O) though he was the younger,(P) and crossing his arms, he put his left hand on Manasseh’s head, even though Manasseh was the firstborn.(Q)

15 Then he blessed(R) Joseph and said,

“May the God before whom my fathers
Abraham and Isaac walked faithfully,(S)
the God who has been my shepherd(T)
all my life to this day,
16 the Angel(U) who has delivered me from all harm(V)
—may he bless(W) these boys.(X)
May they be called by my name
and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac,(Y)
and may they increase greatly
on the earth.”(Z)

17 When Joseph saw his father placing his right hand(AA) on Ephraim’s head(AB) he was displeased; so he took hold of his father’s hand to move it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 Joseph said to him, “No, my father, this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head.”(AC)

19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He too will become a people, and he too will become great.(AD) Nevertheless, his younger brother will be greater than he,(AE) and his descendants will become a group of nations.(AF)” 20 He blessed(AG) them that day(AH) and said,

“In your[a] name will Israel(AI) pronounce this blessing:(AJ)
‘May God make you like Ephraim(AK) and Manasseh.(AL)’”

So he put Ephraim ahead of Manasseh.

As you can see from the above blessing, Ephraim represents the "nations."

This is also indicated elsewhere in scripture, such as the following scripture:

Hosea 7:8

New International Version (NIV)

8 “Ephraim mixes(A) with the nations;
Ephraim is a flat loaf not turned over.

So, whereas Judah (one house of Israel) represents,...........well,............Israel.

Ephraim (the other house of Israel) represents the nations.

Are you starting to see where this is going?

In any case, the point is, the joining of the two houses of Israel DID NOT HAPPEN IN 1948 (or in 70 a.d. for that matter).

They had the Torah, and the Tanach. I don't know if those books were ever gathered into one place prior to Christ, but they would not have been called the Old Testament by them. They certainly have that now, and it is what the studying Jews of today use.

.

My point is that there were a lot of things written in the Old Testament that people did not understand at the time. And they were not understood UNTIL THOSE PROPHESIES WERE ACTUALLY FULFILLED.

So, most likely, the same will be true with the remainder of prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.

There is another scattering in Eze 38-39.

Where does it say that in scripture?

I think this covers it well.

Eze 38:12-13 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places [that are now] inhabited, and upon the people [that are] gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

I do not see anything in the above scripture about Israel being scattered again.

Am I missing something?

Yup, the people get sold down the river while the leaders and cohorts conspire with their enemies in order to be safe when the scourge comes. It comes off as a form of peace with islam, which is , I forgot the word for their promising safety or not attacking until they have become strong enough to attack and overcome. They lie, they know it, the people are hopeful peace is here at last as the muslims appear to want peace and prosperity.

I'm really not sure what to say here. This just doesn't make any sense to me.

How can a covenant with death and hell, be a peace covenant?

As you pointed out yourself earlier, it is God who disannuls this covenant, not the anti-Christ.

Why would God disannul a peace covenant?

For God to disannul this covenant, then it must be something other than a peace covenant.

So, if there is no peace covenant, than how would there be any peace?

Besides that, you still have not provided any scriptures that speak of a time of peace, false or otherwise, aside from the millennial reign of Christ. And you can't say Ezekiel 38, because that is the chapter in question.

In order for a word to be established there must be two or three witnesses, per scripture.

So, where is your second witness?

As we in the US are the great satan we are living under the continuous threat of annihilation by islamic forces. Personally, I feel relatively safe. How about you ?

We are under threat of annihilation by Islamic forces?

Have you seen the following video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqf_1TntGkk

Agreed, but none can claim a membership of one fourth the planet, nor have as their slogan allah is god and he doesn't have a son, the most antichrist message ever spread worldwide, and if necessary by the sword.

Upon doing a quick check, it appears that Islam comprises about 22 percent of the world population.

Catholicism is not far behind with 18 percent. And they are the ones who give the pope the title of Vicarius Filii Dei (Latin: Vicar or Representative of the Son of God). Not to mention the fact that they are the ones leading the charge to bring all religions together, including Islam.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percent_of_the_world_is_Muslim
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_total_number_and_the_percentage_of_Catholics_in_the_world

Rat terriers, best ranch and barn dogs on the planet. Exceptional companions, nothing gets by them as watchdogs, super loyal, loving dogs. Despite their name, they are cuter than heck. Yes, they hunt rats and lots of other furry critters that don't belong around humans, the rodents and vermin our activities seem to attract. PM your email, I will send some pics if you like. Oh, got two females and two males, a culmination of 1st generation breeding. Now I can begin my 2nd generation planning with what we got today. It is indeed a happy day around here.

I just looked at some pictures of rat terriers on line. They're cute.

I especially liked this one:

http://oakland.olx.com/purebreed-rat-te ... id-3151372

I just wish they could stay little like that.

[benny balerio]

Hi Exit40 and Benny,

What teachers are you reading ? Do they confuse you with a lot of talk they don't explain ? I wouldn't follow those either, but rather stick to the Word and what I think it is telling me.

The point that I'm trying to make is that I've heard the explanations........such as the ones you are giving.......many times before.

I just don't believe them.

Maybe I believed them, at one point, but I don't any more.

I guess you could say I've become sort of like the little boy in the story, the Emperor's New Suit.

But, as I said, I wasn't always that way.

I use to believe things merely because they were repeated over and over again, or explained in a certain way again and again, just like most people do. After all, it's human nature to do so.

And I'm sure.......let's just say........the "deceiver" KNOWS that. And most certainly uses that as a tactic to deceive people. And don't think for a minute that the "church" is exempt from that type of deception, whether on purpose, or otherwise.

But, as I said, I use to also believe things simply because all the "experts" were saying the same thing.

I figured they must know what they are talking about, since they're "experts." And especially since they are all saying the same thing.................even if what they were saying made no sense at all.

I just never had any reason to question it.

Believe me, I was just as naive as anyone else. Probably much more so.

In fact, it wasn't until a few years ago that I finally woke up to the reality that you can't believe what all the "experts" are saying..............especially the ones on tv or on the radio.

I guess you could say, it was at that time, that I swallowed the red pill, as they say.

But, I've also learned, since then, that you can't force the red pill on anyone else.

That is something that people have to take on their own..........if they choose to, of course.........and in their own time.

No one forced me to take it. So, I can't really force it on anyone else.

Anyway,

The point is, I still don't see anything in Ezekiel 37 about 1948.

And there is no way that I can believe, after having read the scriptures for myself, that Ezekiel 37 is talking about 1948, when it is clear, to me, that the regathering being referred to in Ezekiel 37 is the regathering that will occur
WHEN ISRAEL IS REDEEMED.

And it is AFTER this gathering has occurred................that Ezekiel 38 takes place.

As for the two house of Israel being joined, OF COURSE THAT DID NOT HAPPEN IN 1948.

In fact, as a side note, it was actually this part of the prophecy that peaked my interest initially, although, I've only just begun to do some research on this. Nevertheless, I think there is a lot more to the joining of the two houses of Israel than what appears to be on the surface. But, like I said, I haven't done a lot of research on this yet.

In any case, as you probably know Jesus descended from the tribe of Judah.

So, Judah represents the true genealogical line and tribe from which Jesus would come.

However, Joseph (which is another one of the 12 tribes) is also a prophetic representation of Christ.

As you may know, Joseph had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.

What's interesting about this is that, although Manasseh was the older of the two brothers, and Ephraim was the younger, it was nevertheless Ephraim who received the following blessing from Jacob (Israel):

Genesis 48:8-20

New International Version (NIV)

8 When Israel(A) saw the sons of Joseph,(B) he asked, “Who are these?”

9 “They are the sons God has given me here,”(C) Joseph said to his father.

Then Israel said, “Bring them to me so I may bless(D) them.”

10 Now Israel’s eyes were failing because of old age, and he could hardly see.(E) So Joseph brought his sons close to him, and his father kissed them(F) and embraced them.(G)

11 Israel(H) said to Joseph, “I never expected to see your face again,(I) and now God has allowed me to see your children too.”(J)

12 Then Joseph removed them from Israel’s knees(K) and bowed down with his face to the ground.(L) 13 And Joseph took both of them, Ephraim on his right toward Israel’s left hand and Manasseh on his left toward Israel’s right hand,(M) and brought them close to him. 14 But Israel(N) reached out his right hand and put it on Ephraim’s head,(O) though he was the younger,(P) and crossing his arms, he put his left hand on Manasseh’s head, even though Manasseh was the firstborn.(Q)

15 Then he blessed(R) Joseph and said,

“May the God before whom my fathers
Abraham and Isaac walked faithfully,(S)
the God who has been my shepherd(T)
all my life to this day,
16 the Angel(U) who has delivered me from all harm(V)
—may he bless(W) these boys.(X)
May they be called by my name
and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac,(Y)
and may they increase greatly
on the earth.”(Z)

17 When Joseph saw his father placing his right hand(AA) on Ephraim’s head(AB) he was displeased; so he took hold of his father’s hand to move it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 Joseph said to him, “No, my father, this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head.”(AC)

19 But his father refused and said, “I know, my son, I know. He too will become a people, and he too will become great.(AD) Nevertheless, his younger brother will be greater than he,(AE) and his descendants will become a group of nations.(AF)” 20 He blessed(AG) them that day(AH) and said,

“In your[a] name will Israel(AI) pronounce this blessing:(AJ)
‘May God make you like Ephraim(AK) and Manasseh.(AL)’”

So he put Ephraim ahead of Manasseh.

As you can see from the above blessing, Ephraim represents the "nations."

This is also indicated elsewhere in scripture, such as the following scripture:

Hosea 7:8

New International Version (NIV)

8 “Ephraim mixes(A) with the nations;
Ephraim is a flat loaf not turned over.

So, whereas Judah (one house of Israel) represents,...........well,............Israel.

Ephraim (the other house of Israel) represents the nations.

Are you starting to see where this is going?

In any case, the point is, the joining of the two houses of Israel DID NOT HAPPEN IN 1948 (or in 70 a.d. for that matter).

They had the Torah, and the Tanach. I don't know if those books were ever gathered into one place prior to Christ, but they would not have been called the Old Testament by them. They certainly have that now, and it is what the studying Jews of today use.

.

My point is that there were a lot of things written in the Old Testament that people did not understand at the time. And they were not understood UNTIL THOSE PROPHESIES WERE ACTUALLY FULFILLED.

So, most likely, the same will be true with the remainder of prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.

There is another scattering in Eze 38-39.

Where does it say that in scripture?

I think this covers it well.

Eze 38:12-13 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places [that are now] inhabited, and upon the people [that are] gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.
Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

I do not read anything in the above scripture about Israel being scattered again.

Am I missing something?

Yup, the people get sold down the river while the leaders and cohorts conspire with their enemies in order to be safe when the scourge comes. It comes off as a form of peace with islam, which is , I forgot the word for their promising safety or not attacking until they have become strong enough to attack and overcome. They lie, they know it, the people are hopeful peace is here at last as the muslims appear to want peace and prosperity.

I'm really not sure what to say here. This just doesn't make any sense to me.

How can a covenant with death and hell, be a peace covenant?

As you pointed out yourself earlier, it is God who disannuls this covenant, not the anti-Christ.

Why would God disannul a peace covenant?

For God to disannul this covenant, then it must be something other than a peace covenant.

So, if there is no peace covenant, than how would there be any peace?

Besides that, you still have not provided any scriptures that speak of a time of peace, false or otherwise, aside from the millennial reign of Christ. And you can't say Ezekiel 38, because that is the chapter in question.

In order for a word to be established there must be two or three witnesses, per scripture.

So, where is your second witness?

As we in the US are the great satan we are living under the continuous threat of annihilation by islamic forces. Personally, I feel relatively safe. How about you ?

We are under threat of annihilation by Islamic forces?

Have you seen the following video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqf_1TntGkk

Agreed, but none can claim a membership of one fourth the planet, nor have as their slogan allah is god and he doesn't have a son, the most antichrist message ever spread worldwide, and if necessary by the sword.

Upon doing a quick check, it appears that Islam comprises about 22 percent of the world population.

Catholicism is not far behind with 18 percent. And they are the ones who give the pope the title of Vicarius Filii Dei (Latin: Vicar or Representative of the Son of God). Not to mention the fact that they are the ones leading the charge to bring all religions together, including Islam.

Rat terriers, best ranch and barn dogs on the planet. Exceptional companions, nothing gets by them as watchdogs, super loyal, loving dogs. Despite their name, they are cuter than heck. Yes, they hunt rats and lots of other furry critters that don't belong around humans, the rodents and vermin our activities seem to attract. PM your email, I will send some pics if you like. Oh, got two females and two males, a culmination of 1st generation breeding. Now I can begin my 2nd generation planning with what we got today. It is indeed a happy day around here.

I just looked at some pictures of rat terriers on line. They're cute.

I especially liked this one:

http://oakland.olx.com/purebreed-rat-te ... id-3151372

I just wish they could stay little like that.

You quote:
The point is, I still don't see anything in Ezekiel 37 about 1948.

And there is no way that I can believe, after having read the scriptures for myself, that Ezekiel 37 is talking about 1948, when it is clear, to me, that the regathering being referred to in Ezekiel 37 is the regathering that will occur
WHEN ISRAEL IS REDEEMED.

And it is AFTER this gathering has occurred................that Ezekiel 38 takes place.

My Reply:
Allow me to help you see it.
Isaiah 66;
7“Before she goes into labor,

she gives birth;

before the pains come upon her,

she delivers a son.

8Who has ever heard of such a thing?

Who has ever seen such things?

Can a country be born in a day

or a nation be brought forth in a moment?

Yet no sooner is Zion in labor

than she gives birth to her children.

Watching,..was not Israel a nation born in one day?
This occurred on may 14,1948...Israel was a nation born in one day.

Again,...it seems to me that you did not read the link I provided for you,...allow me to post it's contents pertaining to the prophecies that lead to the date of may 14,1948.

"Prophecy: Old Testament: Ezekiel 4:3-6 (Written: between 593-571 BC)
(In this Bible passage, Ezekiel is asked by God to symbolically act out the 430 years of punishment) … “Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel . "Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel . "After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah . I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.”

Fulfilled: 1948: In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel . Here's a summary of Jeffrey's theory:

1. Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon . Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon .

2. Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon .

3. Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land , the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible's book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24 and 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon , most exiles were refusing to repent.

4. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.

5. And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.

http://israelsmessiah.com/prophecy/isra ... future.htm

,.....Ezekiel 37 very much reveals that it is speaking of Israel becoming a nation again.
...."
11Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel."....also....."....12....I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

[watching]

Again,...it seems to me that you did not read the link I provided for you,...allow me to post it's contents pertaining to the prophecies that lead to the date of may 14,1948.

Hi Benny,

I must confess, I hadn't looked at the link you posted. But I have seen those calculations before.

I just want to say, that I do not doubt that Isaiah prophesied that Israel would become a nation in one day.

And I have no reason to doubt the calculations that were done concerning Ezekiel 4 work out to 1948, although I have never tried it for myself.

But Isaiah 66 is not Ezekiel 37. And Ezekiel 4 is not Ezekiel 37.

Just because something was prophesied in Ezekiel 4, does not mean that the same thing is being prophesied in Ezekiel 37.

If anything, if Ezekiel 4 is in fact prophesying the establishment of Israel as a nation in 1948, then that would lend more support to the likelihood that Ezekiel 37, must be prophesying about something else.

Wouldn't you say?

[benny balerio]

Again,...it seems to me that you did not read the link I provided for you,...allow me to post it's contents pertaining to the prophecies that lead to the date of may 14,1948.

Hi Benny,

I must confess, I hadn't looked at the link you posted. But I have seen those calculations before.

I just want to say, that I do not doubt that Isaiah prophesied that Israel would become a nation in one day.

And I have no reason to doubt the calculations that were done concerning Ezekiel 4 work out to 1948, although I have never tried it for myself.

But Isaiah 66 is not Ezekiel 37. And Ezekiel 4 is not Ezekiel 37.

Just because something was prophesied in Ezekiel 4, does not mean that the same thing is being prophesied in Ezekiel 37.

If anything, if Ezekiel 4 is in fact prophesying the establishment of Israel as a nation in 1948, then that would lend more support to the likelihood that Ezekiel 37, must be prophesying about something else.

Wouldn't you say?

Definitely not,..I would say that I absolutely disagree with your reasoning:
Just as there are many prophecies pertaining to Israel that are spoken by various prophets,...all the prophecies pertaining to Israel paint a picture when taken all together.
When the prophets spoke about the first coming of our Lord,...each one threw a little spice into the mix that formed a picture.
Some prophecies reveal near and long term future,...with many that are ongoing until the Lord returns to reign for a thousand years.

Lets take Ezekiel 36;11 for example:
11I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before.

The Jewish race has already began to multiply in the land of Israel,..but the Lord is not finished with this ongoing prophecy.
The Lord also states that He will make Israel more prosperous than He did in their past.
What was the pinnacle of Israels prosperity in the ancient past?.........the answer is,... "during the reign of King Solomon."

Behold watching!....this prophecy is very shortly soon to be fulfilled before your very eyes!
Very soon ,...Israel will obtain a small slice of Egypt,.....all of Jordan,....all of Lebanon,...all of Syria,.....Northern Iraq,...and 1/3rd of Saudi Arabia,...Israel today is already discovering vast amounts of oil and natural gas.
But the Bride will witness these events from front row seats in heaven.
The Lord will keep His promise of Genesis 15;18
It is this prophecy that will cause Russia and the outer ring arab nations to devise an evil plan(Ezekiel 38;10)

You Quote:
If anything, if Ezekiel 4 is in fact prophesying the establishment of Israel as a nation in 1948, then that would lend more support to the likelihood that Ezekiel 37, must be prophesying about something else.

My Reply:
How so?
Now explain what this is saying..."Ezekiel 37;14I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land."

Tells us,..where were the Jews living prior to may 14,1948?
Did not he Lord say that He would scatter them to the four corners of the earth?
And how many times in scripture did the Lord state that He would bring them back?
Watching,..this is an ongoing prophecy,..it is already begun,...but it's complete fulfillment is still future.

[watching]

Definitely not,..I would say that I absolutely disagree with your reasoning:
Just as there are many prophecies pertaining to Israel that are spoken by various prophets,...all the prophecies pertaining to Israel paint a picture when taken all together.

And why wouldn't the millennium be part of the picture?

The Jewish race has already began to multiply in the land of Israel,..but the Lord is not finished with this ongoing prophecy.
The Lord also states that He will make Israel more prosperous than He did in their past.
What was the pinnacle of Israels prosperity in the ancient past?.........the answer is,... "during the reign of King Solomon."

Behold watching!....this prophecy is very shortly soon to be fulfilled before your very eyes!

I do not doubt that. I think it will be soon, as well.

The Lord will keep His promise of Genesis 15;18
It is this prophecy that will cause Russia and the outer ring arab nations to devise an evil plan(Ezekiel 38;10)

That is conjecture on your part.

You Quote:
If anything, if Ezekiel 4 is in fact prophesying the establishment of Israel as a nation in 1948, then that would lend more support to the likelihood that Ezekiel 37, must be prophesying about something else.

My Reply:
How so?
Now explain what this is saying..."Ezekiel 37;14I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land."

That would be the resurrection. How else would dry bones be able to live?

Tells us,..where were the Jews living prior to may 14,1948?
Did not he Lord say that He would scatter them to the four corners of the earth?
And how many times in scripture did the Lord state that He would bring them back?
Watching,..this is an ongoing prophecy,..it is already begun,...but it's complete fulfillment is still future.

I agree. It's complete fulfillment is still future.

[Exit40]

Hi watching...

As for the two house of Israel being joined, OF COURSE THAT DID NOT HAPPEN IN 1948.

And it won't happen until a future time.

Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah [and] against Jerusalem....

Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, [even] in Jerusalem.

This gives me the impression it is Judah that is in the land right now. And not joined with the house of Israel yet.

As you can see from the above blessing, Ephraim represents the "nations."

I am unsure of your meaning of 'nations'. Do you mean all nations, or something else ? The passage says in particular...

Nevertheless, his younger brother will be greater than he,(AE) and his descendants will become a group of nations

Exit40 wrote:There is another scattering in Eze 38-39.

watching wrote: Where does it say that in scripture?

Eze 38:13 .... hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey?.....

Is this the witness to the above ?

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

For God to disannul this covenant, then it must be something other than a peace covenant.

It is more than a peace covenant, it is also a regional prosperity, cultural, and divide the land covenant. This is the way Turkey is doing things, and bringing along most muslim and Arab nations in the process. The majority opinion about the many problems in the ME, according to the experts ( sorry, but when everything and every one seems to point this way something most likely will happen that follows suit ) begins with the Palestinian issue. Solve this problem, by dividing the land through a covenant that declares statehood for them, and the business, cultural, religious tolerance, etc stuff that will go along with it. Some of this is speculation on my part, but I believe the message of Scripture and current events and processes both point to this. I doubt Iran will be such a massive problem it's being made out to be, as Scripture doesn't seem to reflect a big destruction on them. How can they have their military and nuke programs wiped out and still have something left to accompany gog/magog ? And is this invasion even i the near future ? I suspect not, as I believe the preceding explanation of my beliefs is what will happen. For all the years I have been studying the islamic paradigm I should have amassed a collection of Scriptural passages to back up my beliefs that I can just grab out to provide explanation. I'm sorry I haven't done that.

Without going into detail I have to say for several years I have been undergoing a physical and emotional trial, under the influence of pain meds and some other junk that seems to have helped. I am a bit of a mess, not having the focus I used to have. Whining over, I still study and struggle to understand Scripture and if current events are in the process of fulfilling Prophecy. Yes, I may be wrong about my conclusions. I look for my errors too, and see there may be something beyond what I have been touting that I haven't been able to get a grip on yet. But I am a watcher, this is what I do. I know that in time Our Lord will reveal, and it may go beyond my time here. I'm OK with that.

As for the Catholic Church leading the charge to unite, they first began in the Christian world. This has made them susceptible to the AOC. This plan began in Turkey, and a man I have been studying for years has his fingerprints all over this. His name is Fethullah Gulen, a spiritual leader in Turkey and beyond, very influential. I recently posted an article by him in the Turkey 3 thread. Take a bit of time to read it and let me know what your thoughts are please.

God Bless You

David

[benny balerio]

Definitely not,..I would say that I absolutely disagree with your reasoning:
Just as there are many prophecies pertaining to Israel that are spoken by various prophets,...all the prophecies pertaining to Israel paint a picture when taken all together.

And why wouldn't the millennium be part of the picture?

The Jewish race has already began to multiply in the land of Israel,..but the Lord is not finished with this ongoing prophecy.
The Lord also states that He will make Israel more prosperous than He did in their past.
What was the pinnacle of Israels prosperity in the ancient past?.........the answer is,... "during the reign of King Solomon."

Behold watching!....this prophecy is very shortly soon to be fulfilled before your very eyes!

I do not doubt that. I think it will be soon, as well.

The Lord will keep His promise of Genesis 15;18
It is this prophecy that will cause Russia and the outer ring arab nations to devise an evil plan(Ezekiel 38;10)

That is conjecture on your part.

You Quote:
If anything, if Ezekiel 4 is in fact prophesying the establishment of Israel as a nation in 1948, then that would lend more support to the likelihood that Ezekiel 37, must be prophesying about something else.

My Reply:
How so?
Now explain what this is saying..."Ezekiel 37;14I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land."

That would be the resurrection. How else would dry bones be able to live?

Tells us,..where were the Jews living prior to may 14,1948?
Did not he Lord say that He would scatter them to the four corners of the earth?
And how many times in scripture did the Lord state that He would bring them back?
Watching,..this is an ongoing prophecy,..it is already begun,...but it's complete fulfillment is still future.

I agree. It's complete fulfillment is still future.

benny balerio wrote:
The Jewish race has already began to multiply in the land of Israel,..but the Lord is not finished with this ongoing prophecy.
The Lord also states that He will make Israel more prosperous than He did in their past.
What was the pinnacle of Israels prosperity in the ancient past?.........the answer is,... "during the reign of King Solomon."

Behold watching!....this prophecy is very shortly soon to be fulfilled before your very eyes!

Watchings Reply:
I do not doubt that. I think it will be soon, as well.

benny balerio wrote:
The Lord will keep His promise of Genesis 15;18
It is this prophecy that will cause Russia and the outer ring arab nations to devise an evil plan(Ezekiel 38;10)

Watchings Reply:
That is conjecture on your part.

My Reply:
If you really analyze your replies here,..you would realize that you are disagreeing against what you had already agreed too.

You Quote:
quote="benny balerio"]The Lord will keep His promise of Genesis 15;18
It is this prophecy that will cause Russia and the outer ring arab nations to devise an evil plan(Ezekiel 38;10)[/quote]

Watchings Reply:
That is conjecture on your part.

My Reply:
Conjecture?......No Watching,...more like discernment.
http://www.zimbio.com/Christianity/arti ... raham+Land
http://prophecydepot.blogspot.com/2009/ ... lment.html
Jordan winds down military-intelligence ties with Israel
Debkafile

Hard-pressed by Syrian President Bashar Assad and Turkish Prime Minister Tayyep Erdogan, Jordan's King Abdulllah II has sharply reduced the kingdom's military and intelligence collaboration with Israel after 60 years in which the partnership buttressed the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan's often shaky survival, secured Israel's eastern frontier and helped safeguard both against terrorism.

Debkafile's intelligence sources disclose that Jordan has reduced cooperation to the narrow border strip cutting down the middle of the Jordan River, keeping it in place only because it is an essential barrier against the flooding of the kingdom with hundreds of thousands of West Bank Palestinians. All other forms of the intelligence-sharing which kept both abreast of Middle East threats and undercurrents have been discontinued.
Continued if you follow the title heading:


[Deleted links. Rule #4; No Linking to other forums]

The owner of this forum will not again activate it.
This forum is off-line,...it is no threat to this forum

The nations mentioned in Psalms 83 are not listed in Ezekiel 38,...the reason is that the Psalms 83 nations were destroyed prior to Ezekiel 38.
It is the destruction of the inner ring nations that touch Israels border today that results in Israel to dwell "CARELESSLY" in peace and safety. This coming false peace is a requirement before Ezekiel 38 can come to pass.

[watching]

Hi Exit40 and Benny,

Sorry for not being able to respond. I was really busy yesterday.

And this morning I was trying to make a post, but in the middle of it, I decided to try and save my work, in a draft, for fear of having it be lost, because the cable line was being worked on, at the time.

But, then, I inadvertently continued to type after I had already saved my draft, as if I was still in response mode.

Later when I tried to preview my post, I realized that I had pretty much lost everything I had typed, since trying to save my draft.



As you can imagine, I'm pretty frustrated right now, and I don't want to waste the whole day.

I also have other commitments this weekend.

So, it will probably be a while before I get a chance to work on my post again.

[Douggg]

According to Dan 11, the god of forces appears to be a real entity with real power who helps the AC conquer fortresses- 'He will attack the mightiest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who aknowledge him'. In Rev 13 it is the dragon, Satan, who gives the AC his authority and power and throne. It would appear unlikely that Satan would just give his power and authority to a mere man without some ability to control that man. So it is likely that there is a merging between Satan and the AC, by possession or some other means.

So it would appear that the god of forces is likely Satan, that there is some type of merging between the AC and Satan, so that the god the AC honors is Satan, and in a sense the AC honors himself, as the AC has the authority and power of Satan and is likely possessed by Satan. By honoring the god of forces the AC can honor Satan and himself, still setting himself above all other gods because he is part of the god of forces, so that there is no contradiction in Dan 11.

In any case, honoring Satan and exalting oneself above all other gods including Allah, would be contrary to Islam. Also the god of forces is called a 'foreign god', suggesting that the AC had not been previously acquainted with the god of forces. Allah would not be a 'foreign god' to the Mahdi, suggesting that Allah is not the god the AC honors and confirming that the AC is not Islamic.

The god of forces who his fathers never knew is because the Antichrist will be a Jew. He will not be a muslim.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. 38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

There was also some mention of the beast coming out of the bottomless pit (abyss) in the discussion. Regarding the beast in Revelation 13, 12, 17, John himself sees the beast in each of those chapters. In Revelation 17 and 12, the beast is represented by Satan because the timestamps for each of those chapters the beast, the actual person, is in the bottomless pit. So John does not see the beast, the actual person in Revelation 12 or 17. It is key to realize that John himself NEVER saw the beast, the actual person, in the bottomless pit. John only knew that the beast, the person, was in the bottomless pit because the angel told him.

So, until the beast comes out of the bottomless pit, John sees Satan the power behind the beast.

Revelation 17 - scarlet colored beast (Satan) - the beast, the actual person, is in the bottomless pit, at the time of John first century.

Revelation 12 - great red dragon beast (Satan) - the beast, the actual person, is still in the bottomless pit at the start of the seven years (Revelation 12:6+12:14).

Revelation 13 - the composite beast, not Satan, John sees because with 42 months to go the beast, the actual person, will have ascended out of the bottomless pit and will have possessed the mortally wounded and recovered man of sin.

In Revelation 13 and Daniel 7, there is the reference of the beasts coming out of the sea and the earth. When it says sea, that tells us that the beast is not only a person but also a kingdom. Thus, the second beast in Revelation 13 is just a person, not a kingdom.

In Daniel 7 the first half, the beasts are coming out of the sea. So those are kingdoms. Then when the angel (assumed) explains the vision to Daniel, he says these great four beasts coming out of the earth are four kings. From that we can gather the beasts when come out of the sea have a dual meaning of both kingdoms and kings.

Since the second beast in Revelation 13 comes only out of the earth, that beast represents only a person, not a kingdom.


Doug

[Douggg]

While I don't think the Antichrist can be a muslim, Gog or the person empowered by Gog if Gog is a fallen angel, I cannot rule out as being a muslim. I tend to think him not being a muslim though. I could be wrong.

Doug

[1whowaits]

Doug, Gog leads what appears to be a muslim army, as muslims would be more likely to follow a muslim leader, it is more likely that Gog is a muslim, but that is specualtion.

The AC, the man, appears to be associated with certain things; strengthening a covenant for 7 years, which was to be done for the Old Covenant in Deut, putting an end to sacrifice and offering which is part of the Old Covenant, he sets himself up as god in God's Temple which is a Hebrew temple, he appears to be referred to as a false christ, a Jewish term, he pitches his royal tents at Jerusalem, the AC is associated with a mark on the hand and forehead, the Jews were told to bind God's commands as symbols on their hands and foreheads....it may be a coincidence but the AC appears to be repeatedly associated with Jewish actions and institutions, perhaps scripture is pointing to a Jewish AC.

Satan states is Isa 14- 'I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain...I will make myself like the Most High...' The mount of assembly and the sacred mountain are terms used for Mount Zion or the temple mount, in Jerusalem. What Satan states could be fulfilled in the person of the AC setting himself up as god, the Most High, in the Hebrew Temple on the temple mount, the sacred mount of assembly. What Satan desires would be fulfilled if he possesed a Jewish 'christ' who sets himself up in the temple on the sacred mount and rules the world.

[benny balerio]

Satan has been attempting to prove God is a promise breaker, a liar, with a flawed covenant making character.Satan attempted this in the past by polluting mankinds bloodline and also by attempting to wipe out the Jewish race through Hitler. If Satan can accomplish this he justifies his and his fallen angelic cohorts' rebellious campaign against God and His perfect divine will. Satan has clearly evidenced throughout human history that his modus operandi is to discredit God by killing Abraham’s Jewish descendants.
In Genesis 13:15, 22:17 and elsewhere God promised Abraham descendants forever. If there are no more Jews, then God is in breach of His covenant with Abraham. Furthermore, the promise of eternal security for all believers, justified by the similar faith of Abraham can be questioned. (Romans 4 and Galatians 3)
If the antichrist were a Jew,....then it seems based on satan's past,....that he would have to kill his antichrist too, when the ac attempted to annihilate the Jewish race at the A.O.D.
It does not seem likely that a Jew would attempt to wipe out his own race.

I think it is a far cry that a Jew would be a world leader to a gentile race.
The giant statue in Daniel 2,....reveals consecutive gentile world powers.
The Antichrist prototype was Antiochus Epiphanes, a Gentile.

Daniel 9;26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(This scripture suggests that the ac will be Gentile.)

[1whowaits]

BB, actually from Isa 14 and Ezek 28 it appears that Satan's desire is rule from God's throne, on God's mountain, he want's to be God or at least displace God. Satan will be cast down to earth and he will be furious, against God for the most part because he knows his time is short, he knows God will send him into eternal punishment and defeat him forever.

Satan likely wants revenge, he wants to cause God pain in any way he can. He may believe that one way to get at God is to take His wife, Israel. In the OT it was a great insult for a king to capture an opposing kings wife, and make her his own. The insult would be greater if the wife came willingly, and Israel could willingly follow a false messiah, but only if he were Jewish....' they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.....until the time of the end, for it will come at the appointed time.' Dan 11

We don't know exactly where the AC will come from, but when he is mentioned, fequently there is something associated with the Jewish people that is also described. Again it could be coincidence, but it may be a clue.

[Douggg]

Satan has been attempting to prove God is a promise breaker, a liar, with a flawed covenant making character.Satan attempted this in the past by polluting mankinds bloodline and also by attempting to wipe out the Jewish race through Hitler. If Satan can accomplish this he justifies his and his fallen angelic cohorts' rebellious campaign against God and His perfect divine will. Satan has clearly evidenced throughout human history that his modus operandi is to discredit God by killing Abraham’s Jewish descendants.
In Genesis 13:15, 22:17 and elsewhere God promised Abraham descendants forever. If there are no more Jews, then God is in breach of His covenant with Abraham. Furthermore, the promise of eternal security for all believers, justified by the similar faith of Abraham can be questioned. (Romans 4 and Galatians 3)
If the antichrist were a Jew,....then it seems based on satan's past,....that he would have to kill his antichrist too, when the ac attempted to annihilate the Jewish race at the A.O.D.
It does not seem likely that a Jew would attempt to wipe out his own race.

Benny, the Antichrist (the end times born man) will be a Jew and also descended from the Romans, the Julio Claudian clan imo. As far as him wiping out his own race, yes, that is one of the reasons it appears why God has such disdain for him.... in Isaiah 14,

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

In verse 19 above the slain Man of Sin is compared to an abominable branch. Jesus was considered the righteous branch. So we have that comparison pertaining to the Antichrist also being a Jew. And he slays his own people.
The Antichrist will be cast out of the grave, accounting for the miraculous recovery from being mortally wounded.

I think it is a far cry that a Jew would be a world leader to a gentile race.
The giant statue in Daniel 2,....reveals consecutive gentile world powers.
The Antichrist prototype was Antiochus Epiphanes, a Gentile.

Benny, keep in mind that when we are talking about the Antichrist, it not just a case of only one person. There is also the person of the beast that is currently in the bottomless pit, disembodied in spirit form, who someday is going to ascend out of that pit and possess the slain and recovered Man of Sin, for that last 42 months. imo, the person in the bottomless pit is Nimrod, a Gentile. So we are looking at a end times Jew, who in the process betrays his own people in making a deal with Satan, is killed and recovers, and is possessed by an ancient Gentile, who himself was probably a nephilim.

Antiochus was a prototype in that he presents a picture of what the abomination of desolation will be in the time of the Antichrist beast (the possessed slain and recovered Man of Sin). Antiochus at no time in his career was ever considered by the Jewish people as the promised descendant of David, great King of Israel, i.e. messiah or christ (if a person were speaking greek at the time when Jesus rode into Jerusalem hailed as that promised King by his followers).

Daniel 9;26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and its end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(This scripture suggests that the ac will be Gentile.)

What it suggest is that the Antichrist will be descended from the Romans. That doesn't mean he also cannot be a Jew.
I can give you an example of a Jew who's name is Caesar. Sid Caesar (Isaac Sidney Caesar) was a comedian from the 50's. He was a Jew.

Again keep in mind that we have the end times born Antichrist man who goes through 4 stages of his career to finally end up as the Antichrist beast.

And we have the ancient person who is currently in the bottomless pit in disembodied spirit form, called the beast in Revelation 17, Nimrod, imo. So we need to endeavor to find out as much as possible about each, while at the same time being aware that we are talking about two separate individuals who will in the end will combine to make up the Antichrist beast.

So we are talking about a Jew who rises to political heights to become leader of Europe, then comes to the rescue of the Jews when Gog/Magog takes place, who then is seen by the Jews as their promised great King of Israel, messiah or christ, who for some reason apparently sells himself out to Satan and becomes the man of sin, who the Jews drop like a hot potato as their messiah, who is slain and miraculously recovers, and the beast in the bottomless pit ascends out of to possess him.


Doug

[Douggg]

We don't know exactly where the AC will come from, but when he is mentioned, fequently there is something associated with the Jewish people that is also described. Again it could be coincidence, but it may be a clue.

I think we have enough information in the prophecies to know where the Antichrist will come from and where the other person the beast in the bottomless pit is from.

I don't think we can pinpoint to an exact country, but since he comes from the people who destroyed the temple and city, he has to be a Roman. And since he comes from one of the Alexander four breakup kingdoms, which, of those four kingdoms, it would have to be the kingdom common to the ten king end times fourth kingdom (the EU final form). So we are looking at Greece, western Greece, Macedonia, Romania, any of the small Balkan countries.



Doug

[1whowaits]

Doug, we do know in general where the AC will come from, but not exactly. In Dan 11 he is pictured as warring against the kings of the north and south and he is alarmed by reports from the east, but the west is not metioned, likely because he is the king of the west. The west includes Europe, but also the US and North and South America. And as Israel has some agrements with the EU, Israel could be in there somewhere.

[Jay Ross]

hello

Revelation 16:12-16: - The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. And I saw, issuing from the mouth of the dragon and from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet, three foul spirits like frogs; for they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. ("Lo, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is he who is awake, keeping his garments that he may not go naked and be seen exposed!") And they assembled them at the place which is called in Hebrew Armageddon.

Does not the passage quoted above tell us the answer? It tells us that the three kings live east of the Euphrates river and that they are the dragon, the beast and the false prophet and that they send out three foul evil spirits to draw the whole world to do their bidding at the place called Armageddon.

Has not the sixth angel's bowl been poured out onto the Euphrates river, {am image representing the religions of Babel, Baal etc.} and it dried up and people have become influenced by the beast and have inhabited his domain to do his bidding, namely the Islamic religion that is rising up today with great iniquity towards the God of Creation, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the three witnesses of who God is. This is the terrible beast that Daniel describes in Daniel 7 which will be slain.

Have we not witnessed the three foul frog like spirits that went out to do signs and wonders before the whole world?

Are we not witnessing the subtle drawing of all the nations of the world to assemble at Armageddon at this present time and will this not take around 40 or so years to be fulfilled?

Both Islamic nations and nations aligned with Gog and his people will assemble there to be dealt with by God when He redeems Israel before all the nations of the world who will go up towards Jerusalem in an attempt to stop this very thing from happening. In other words the kings of the world will attempt to act "God Like" in their purposes and will cause their armies to suffer for their foolishness.

IMHO - The King of the North will be allowed to become the voice piece of the False Prophet. Who it will be, will be revealed within the next 40 or so years.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[1whowaits]

Jay, actually only the AC is described as a king, Satan and the FP are not, therefore they are not the kings from the east. Rather they send out demons to decieve all the kings of the world to gather them to armageddon, so if the AC and FP were kings of the east, they would be deceiving themselves, as they deceive all the kings of the world.

The Euphrates has not dried up, it is still flowing, what scripture describes appears to be a literal drying up of the river. All the armies of the world are not currently gathering for armageddon, but a limited number may be getting ready to attack Iran.

And i missed the appearance of the 3 frog/demons, that also does not appear to have happened yet, but if you have some pics that would be great.

[Jay Ross]

Jay, actually only the AC is described as a king, Satan and the FP are not, therefore they are not the kings from the east. Rather they send out demons to decieve all the kings of the world to gather them to armageddon, so if the AC and FP were kings of the east, they would be deceiving themselves, as they deceive all the kings of the world.

The Euphrates has not dried up, it is still flowing, what scripture describes appears to be a literal drying up of the river. All the armies of the world are not currently gathering for armageddon, but a limited number may be getting ready to attack Iran.

And i missed the appearance of the 3 frog/demons, that also does not appear to have happened yet, but if you have some pics that would be great.

1whowaits,

I am sorry that you have missed so much fulfilled scripture, particularly those parts of the passage Rev 16:12-16: -

Fulfilled portion:-
The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphra'tes, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. And I saw, issuing from the mouth of the dragon and from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet, three foul spirits like frogs; for they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world,

Being fulfilled: -
to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.

An aside: -
("Lo, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is he who is awake, keeping his garments that he may not go naked and be seen exposed!")

Furture fulfilment: -
And they assembled them at the place which is called in Hebrew Armaged'don.

Oh well, so be it.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[1whowaits]

Jay, you are right, i could have missed the fulfillment of these passages. But the demon/frog thing would have been hard to miss i would think, perhaps the ADD is kicking in.

Seriously though, you make these statements as if they are established fact but your reasoning is difficult to follow. What makes you believe these events have already been fulfilled?

[Douggg]

hello

Revelation 16:12-16: - The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. And I saw, issuing from the mouth of the dragon and from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet, three foul spirits like frogs; for they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. ("Lo, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is he who is awake, keeping his garments that he may not go naked and be seen exposed!") And they assembled them at the place which is called in Hebrew Armageddon.

Does not the passage quoted above tell us the answer? It tells us that the three kings live east of the Euphrates river and that they are the dragon, the beast and the false prophet and that they send out three foul evil spirits to draw the whole world to do their bidding at the place called Armageddon.

Has not the sixth angel's bowl been poured out onto the Euphrates river, {am image representing the religions of Babel, Baal etc.} and it dried up and people have become influenced by the beast and have inhabited his domain to do his bidding, namely the Islamic religion that is rising up today with great iniquity towards the God of Creation, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the three witnesses of who God is. This is the terrible beast that Daniel describes in Daniel 7 which will be slain.

Hi Jay, the events of Revelation 16:12-16 come right at the end of the 7 years ( at the end of the 3 1/2 years for those here who do not hold to the 7 years position) just before Jesus comes down from heaven to destroy the Antichrist beast.

So we are many years away to see any formulation to those events in Revelation 16 happening right now.

On the other hand, Islam is definitely a force right now, agreed. But it is a force that factors into the Psalms 83 war and the Gog/Magog war. Those two wars will take place right before the 7 years of the Antichrist.

Have we not witnessed the three foul frog like spirits that went out to do signs and wonders before the whole world?

No, not yet.

Are we not witnessing the subtle drawing of all the nations of the world to assemble at Armageddon at this present time and will this not take around 40 or so years to be fulfilled?

Well, we have the makings of the Pslams 83 war and Gog/Magog war alignment of nations taking place at the present time. The intent of those wars are to destroy Israel from being a nation.

Amageddon is different. That great battle will be the gathering of the worlds armies, under the leadership of the Antichrist beast, to literally stop Jesus from returning down to earth. Their gathering will be expressly to stop him.

Revelation 19:

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Both Islamic nations and nations aligned with Gog and his people will assemble there to be dealt with by God when He redeems Israel before all the nations of the world who will go up towards Jerusalem in an attempt to stop this very thing from happening. In other words the kings of the world will attempt to act "God Like" in their purposes and will cause their armies to suffer for their foolishness.

IMHO - The King of the North will be allowed to become the voice piece of the False Prophet. Who it will be, will be revealed within the next 40 or so years.

In 40 years, I am quiet sure that all of the end times prophecies will be fulfilled. Regarding the King of the North in Daniel 11:40, we don't know who that is for sure right now. I don't see him as a spokesman for the False Prophet.

The False Prophet supports the Antichrist beast, who in turn is supported by the ten kings of the kingdom that the Antichrist first emerges out of to begin his career. So that would put the Antichrist and the False Prophet aligned with the western nations.

What causes the King of the North to attack him, as well as the South and the East, imo, is that near of the end of the 7 years when natural resources and food supplies have dwindled down to critical levels, the Antichrist will be favoring the Europeans. This, plus the fact he will not be successful in stopping the plagues coming from God, will disillusion the other nations of the world regarding his claim to be God. So there will be a rebellion from the other regions of the world to remove him and the stranglehold the west will have over the dwindling resources. Which is why we get in the prophecies in Daniel 11, the battles at the end of the 7 years, just as Jesus is about to return.


Doug

[Jay Ross]

Jay, you are right, i could have missed the fulfillment of these passages. But the demon/frog thing would have been hard to miss i would think, perhaps the ADD is kicking in.

Seriously though, you make these statements as if they are established fact but your reasoning is difficult to follow. What makes you believe these events have already been fulfilled?

I considered the imagary and the outcome presently being played out of the nations of the world being drawn towards the Armageddon event as being evidence enough to be able to say that the three frog like spirits that flew out of the mouths of the three kings that are to the east of the Euphrates River has been fulfilled for just over ten years.

Doug, Is not the battle of Gog still in the distant future, some 1,000 plus years after the Armageddon event?

Perhaps we just have a differring time line understanding of Biblical prophecy events that stems from a different understanding of when we will see Jesus coming to the earth in/on a cloud. People will know within 50 years when we fleetingly see Jesus a far off who will be right with our respective understanding of Biblical prophecy.

Shalom

Jay Ross.

[Douggg]

Doug, Is not the battle of Gog still in the distant future, some 1,000 plus years after the Armageddon event?

The Ezekiel 38/39 battle would not be. That battle takes place after Israel has returned from the nations. And following, God says that the world will know why they were dispersed among the nations. Ezekiel 39:

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

At the end of the 1000 years reign of Christ here on this earth, as their king, it will hardly be a mystery of why they dispersed among the nations. It will have been known for over a 1000 years, ever since Jesus's return.

So I would put the Ezekiel 38/39 battle near at hand. Followed by the seven years of the Antichrist.

Doug

[Jay Ross]

Doug

So where does the Gog Battle in Rev 20 fit into the Old testament prophecies? Is it still over 1,000 years or so into our future?

Shalom

Jay Ross

[watching]

Ezekiel 39

King James Version (KJV)

39 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.

14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God.

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;\

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

Isaiah 11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

[Jay Ross]

Interesting passages in andswer to my questions but is it still over 1,000 years into our future? This question you have not answered.

[benny balerio]

Interesting passages in andswer to my questions but is it still over 1,000 years into our future? This question you have not answered.

Pertaining to revelation 20 in the gog-magog battle,...the old testament does not mention this last battle that occurs just prior to the Great White Throne Judgement where death and hell is thrown into the lake of fire.
The old testiment only mentions Gog-magog that occurs just prior to Daniels 70th week.

[watching]

Hi Jay Ross,

The point I was trying to make is the following:

The regathering of Israel is prophesied in Ezekiel 36 and 37. (The context of Ezekiel 36 and 37 explains when this regathering will occur.)

Then Ezekiel 38 explains that the Gog/Magog war will occur when Israel "is brought back from the sword and
is gathered out of many people" and when the following conditions exist: (see verse 8)

Ezekiel 38:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

See Ezekiel 38 in it's entirety here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2038&version=KJV

Then Ezekiel 39 explains that Israel is being brought captive again and speaks of Israel being gathered again. (see verses 21 thru 29)

Ezekiel 39:21-29

King James Version (KJV)

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

See Ezekiel 39 in it's entirety here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2039&version=KJV


The word "again" implies a second time, at least, because you can't be gathered "again" if you are being gathered for the the first time.

The context of Isaiah 11 gives us a second witness as to when the second time will be. (see verse 11)

Isaiah 11:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

See Isaiah 11 in it's entirety here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2011&version=KJV

So, since there are only two gatherings to work with, and since the scriptures tell us when the second gathering will be, then that leaves no room for doubt as to when the first gathering will be.......Especially since Israel, for the most part, has not even been regathered yet.