What ur church is not telling u...MOB

[Mitchell]

Mitchell, you state that there needs to be consistency when interpreting the signs and symbolism:

The Beast = The Devil
The Dragon = The Antichrist
The Horns = The Kings
The Crowns = The Kings
The Lamb = The Saviour

The Mark = ???

If we’re going to be consistent here; why would the ‘mark’ then represent an ‘invisible’, non-tangible belief and not stay consistent in representing something tangible and physical?

The Dragon is Satan. I'm curious, though, are you saying that Satan is physical? Obviously, he is not a physical being. Which means that you must at least believe that he is tangible, correct? The Mark = The Allegiance to the Beast. Is not allegiance to the Beast even to the point of death not something to be considered tangible or significant? Is it not a force to be reckoned with? The Islamists who engage in suicide missions, who behead Christians, who persecute the saints of God. Is their allegiance to Mohammed and Islam not tangible?

The Lamb = Christ
The Great Multitude = The Ekklesia
The Bride = "The Church"

The Seal Upon the Elect's Forehead = ???

We are sealed (Ephesians 1:14; 4:30) in Christ. In your view, what is the seal upon the elect's forehead?

In the event that the Mark of the Beast is active and in use who would be the specific 'he' who is the one providing and causing?

The "he" likely refers to the coming Islamic Antichrist whom the Muslim world will follow, and it is his rule that will be the impetus to implement the widespread forced subjugation of all Christians residing in Muslim lands to the dictates of Islam. Anyone who therefore is not an obvious Muslim or who does not recite the Islamic "Shahada" (There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah) will not be able to buy or sell. Let's also not discount the possibility that the “man of sin” may not be pointing to one single Antichrist personage, as it were, though the general consensus is precisely that, but could instead be pointing to one single entity. Just as the ekklesia of God is comprised of a great multitude of believing Jews and Gentiles created as “one new man” in Christ who are marked by God (Eph. 2:15, Rev. 14:1) and described by John in Revelation 7 as the “multitude of the lamb” (the Son of God, whom they follow), then the “man of sin” (2 Thess 2:3) may simply be its direct antithesis comprised of those who have the Mark of the Beast and described by John in Revelation 13 as the “multitude of a man” (the false prophet Mohammed, whom they follow).

Islam in it's extreme is in a war against Christians, but... According to Daniel chapter 11 the king who is seen as Antichrist or the Beast comparitively in scripture does not honor the faith (or god) of his fathers, so if he does rise up out of Islam and then turns against it then his mark would not be of Islam, but of himself.

Daniel 11:37-38 reveals that Antichrist will not regard “the God of his fathers” but will instead honor “a god whom his fathers knew not.” Many Arabs and Muslims are descendants of Ishmael, whose father was Abraham. To not regard “the God of his fathers” means, in my opinion, that the Antichrist will not regard YHWH the true God of Abraham (and Ishmael, whom God took care of after he and Hagar were sent away), but will instead honor a god whom they never knew, one that is forced upon the inhabitants of all nations surrounding Israel in the eschaton, and in increasing measure upon the world, whom they refer to as ‘Allah’.

From what we know of Islam, it cannot claim an existence from before the time of Rome.

The origins of Islam most definitely existed before John's time. Islam originated from a pagan polytheistic religion that pre-dated John where the people of Arabia worshiped many gods, including the moon god "al-ilah":

1. Moon worship has been practiced in Arabia since 2000 BC. The crescent moon is the most common symbol of this pagan moon worship as far back as 2000 BC.
2. In Mecca, there was a god named Hubal who was Lord of the Kabah.
3. This Hubal was a moon god.
4. One Muslim apologist confessed that the idol of moon god Hubal was placed upon the roof of the Kaba about 400 years before Muhammad. This may in fact be the origin of why the crescent moon is on top of every minaret at the Kaba today and the central symbol of Islam atop of every mosque throughout the world:

About four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad one Amr bin Lahyo ... a descendant of Qahtan and king of Hijaz, had put an idol called Hubal on the roof of the Kaba. This was one of the chief deities of the Quraish before Islam. (Muhammad The Holy Prophet, Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar (Pakistan), p 18-19, Muslim)

5. The moon god was also referred to as "al-ilah". This is not a proper name of a single specific god, but a generic reference meaning "the god". Each local pagan Arab tribe would refer to their own local tribal pagan god as "al-ilah".
6. "al-ilah" was later shortened to Allah before Muhammad began promoting his new religion in 610 AD.
7. There is evidence that Hubal was referred to as "Allah".
8. When Muhammad came along, he dropped all references to the name "Hubal" but retained the generic "Allah".
9. Muhammad retained almost all the pagan rituals of the Arabs at the Kaba and redefined them in monotheistic terms.
10. Regardless of the specifics of the facts, it is clear that Islam is derived from paganism that once worshiped a moon-god.
11. Although Islam is today a monotheist religion, its roots are in paganism. [http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god.htm].

The religion of Islam has as its focus of worship a deity by the name of "Allah." The Muslims claim that Allah in pre-Islamic times was the biblical God of the Patriarchs, prophets, and apostles. The issue is thus one of continuity. Was "Allah" the biblical God or a pagan god in Arabia during pre- Islamic times? The Muslim's claim of continuity is essential to their attempt to convert Jews and Christians for if "Allah" is part of the flow of divine revelation in Scripture, then it is the next step in biblical religion. Thus we should all become Muslims. But, on the other hand, if Allah was a pre- Islamic pagan deity, then its core claim is refuted. Religious claims often fall before the results of hard sciences such as archeology. We can endlessly speculate about the past or go and dig it up and see what the evidence reveals. This is the only way to find out the truth concerning the origins of Allah. As we shall see, the hard evidence demonstrates that the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters. [http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm].

In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha, that she had uncovered a temple of the moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple. An idol which may be the moon-god himself was also discovered. This was later confirmed by other well-known archaeologists. The evidence reveals that the temple of the moon-god was active even in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrates that moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, while the name of the moon-god was Sin, his title was al-ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods. As **** pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." The moon-god was called al-ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times.

Muhammad was raised in the religion of the moon-god Allah. But he went one step further than his fellow pagan Arabs. While they believed that Allah, i.e. the moon-god, was the greatest of all gods and the supreme deity in a pantheon of deities, Muhammad decided that Allah was not only the greatest god but the only god. In effect he said, "Look, you already believe that the moon-god Allah is the greatest of all gods. All I want you to do is to accept that the idea that he is the only god. I am not taking away the Allah you already worship. I am only taking away his wife and his daughters and all the other gods." This is seen from the fact that the first point of the Muslim creed is not, "Allah is great" but "Allah is the greatest," i.e., he is the greatest among the gods. Why would Muhammad say that Allah is the "greatest" except in a polytheistic context? The Arabic word is used to contrast the greater from the lesser. [http://www.isrelate.com/pages/content/2/169/Islam-and-the-moon-god].

... Muslims will, after he proclaims to be god, turn their backs upon him."

The Muslim world is waiting for a “messianic” figure whom they call “The Mahdi” or “The 12th Imam” that will lead them into a new era of Islamic “justice” that would “spread around the globe” and unite the Ummah (Islamic community of nations) against non-Muslims. Of particular interest here is the fact that Islamists view this figure as the savior, not only for Muslims, but for all of humanity. If the Mahdi proclaimed himself to be — or is proclaimed by the Muslim world to be — the “true savior” of mankind that the whole earth must follow, this would fly directly in the face of God who says in Isaiah 43:11 that “I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior.” According to Scripture, anyone who would proclaim himself to be the savior of the world would therefore be claiming to be God by attributing to himself a title that only God can hold.

The Mahdi (according to Islamic teaching) will not only claim to be the ‘savior’ but will also be the driving force behind uniting a coalition of Islamic nations that come up against the nation of Israel. He will also desire to subjugate the world into converting to Islam, according to Islamic teaching. The Mahdi, or “man of sin”, does not have to outright say “I am God” in order to show (“apodeiknymi”, declare) himself as God. Jesus did the same thing without telling the Sanhedrin “I am God”, yet they understood the theological significance of His words and sought to kill Him.

[1whowaits]

Mitchell, (have you posted here previously as Seeker?), actually the beautiful, holy mountain between the seas (Med and dead) is Jerusalem, the AC meets his end at Jerusalem, which Zech 14 and Joel 3 confirm. Interestingly, Gog is never associated with Jerusalem, there is no evidence that Gog even makes it to Jerusalem, he and his troops are buried in the valley to the east which is an approach to Jerusalem from the dead sea, but it is not Jerusalem.

The definitive statement regarding the end of the AC is in Rev 19, he is captured 'alive' and cast into the lake of fire (not like the destruction of Korah- captured alive at a battle and cast into the place of eternal punishment- unlike any other human other than the sidekick FP). That is nothing like being buried with an army in a mass grave in a specific place in Israel, which is the end of Gog specifically described in scripture. Jesus does destroy the AC with the brightness of His coming, Jesus comes and captures the AC alive and casts him into the lake of fire, and Jesus tramples the armies like grapes, not described at Gog-magog.

Jesus is repeatedly described as personally coming and doing the trampling of His enemies at armageddon in Rev 19, Joel 3 and Zech 14. Ezek 38 and 39 describe judgement being sent by God, no direct contact between Jesus and the armies is described as it is in passages referring to armageddon. Jesus tramples the armies at armageddon and is splattered with their blood, nothing like this is indicated at all in Ezek 38-39.

Saying that Jesus is present at Gog because a statement is made of the Holy One 'in' Israel is an unsupported assumption imo, as there is no depiction of Jesus' presence anywhere else in the passage. I am not a Hebrew scholar, but it appears that the original wording of the passage in Hebrew is 'Holy One Israel' with 'in' being inserted later by the translator, placing any emphasis on 'in' would not appear to be warranted. Alternatively, the 'in Israel' statement can refer to God's presence in the rebuilt temple, the Shekinah glory, as it would be likely that the temple will be rebuilt after Gog-Magog.

As far as the earthquake, as you quote the earthquake in Ezek is in Israel, while the earthquake at armageddon shakes all nations. Ezek states that the events occur in Israel, the events that follow are local and occur on the mounatins of Israel. And the statement about the earth shaking at God's presence is not only in Ezek but is stated elsewhere in scripture- 'The mountains quake before him and the hills melt away. The earth trembles at his presence, the world and all who live in it.' Nahum 1.

Nahum describes the earth shaking at the presence of God at the past destruction of Nineveh. Was this a worldwide earthquake at the fall of Nineveh felt by all men, or was this symbolic of the effects of what God had done to Nineveh locally? Likely the statement in Ezek of all those on the face of the earth shaking is similar to that of Nahum 1, it is a local event, as the statement is preceeded by a direct reference to these events occurring in Israel proper.

And did Jesus return at the destruction of Nineveh, the 'presence' of God is stated in Nahum 1, is this term always an indicator of Jesus' return? As there is no indication that the 'presence' in Nahum refers to the return of Christ, so also it is unlikely that the 'presence' noted in Ezek is any reference to the return of Christ, and there is no supporting evidence for this view anywhere else in the passage.

And as far as Israel not polluting the name of the Lord, the meaning of this is explained in Ezek 36, it is reference to the exile of Israel among the nations and the nations stating that God could not protect His people, and not to Israel sinning against God.

The differences between Gog-magog and armageddon, between Gog and the AC, are significant and cannot be explained away, imo.

[1whowaits]

And, just some thoughts as to some of the problems with the view that the AC is a muslim. Daniel 11 states that the 'king', the AC, will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard of things against the God of gods. In Islam, as Mitchell indicates, the god of gods is Allah. As Allah is supreme in Islam, no one can proclaim themsleves above Allah or superior to Allah, and remain a muslim. And yet the AC does this.

Dan 11 further states that the AC will show no regard for the gods of his fathers, if the AC is muslim the god of his fathers would be Allah, a muslim would show regard for Allah to remain a muslim, and yet the AC does not show regard for Allah.

Dan 11 further states that the AC will not regard any god but exalt himself above them all, including Allah, again not an act of a muslim.

Dan 11 states that the god the AC does honor is unknown to his fathers, Allah is known the world over, making it unlikely that the AC is a muslim.

In Dan 11 the AC engages the king of the south in battle and Edom, Moab and Egypt (all muslim nations) will fall to him. If the AC is a muslim why is he warring against muslim nations?

The logical conclusion based on what the AC does in Dan 11 would be that the AC is not a muslim.

[Tevye]

If the AC is a muslim why is he warring against muslim nations?

Good point!

The logical conclusion based on what the AC does in Dan 11 would be that the AC is not a muslim.

At least not in his heart... as will show itself when he is revealed as the A/C.

[1whowaits]

Tevye, prior to the AOD scripture does not conclusively indicate what religion the AC follows, whether he is a muslim or hindu, etc (I believe he is likely Jewish), but once he declares himself over every other god, he cannot be a muslim. Once he declares himself over all gods including Allah, making Allah subservient to himself, he is an infidel as far as Islam is concerned. Those who then follow him also would not be of Islam, they would be following a heretic and denying the faith of Islam.

The view of those who believe that the AC is Islamic would be that armageddon and Gog-magog are the same event, and that armageddon is the surrounding of Israel by the forces of Islam led by an Islamic Mahdi. But by what the AC does in Dan 11 around the time of the AOD 3.5 years prior to armageddon, even if prior to the AOD the AC were a muslim, he would have denied the faith of Islam long before the time of armageddon, as would those who follow him. The AC would not be an Islamic Mahdi and the armies that follow him would not be of Islam, both would have rejected the faith long before the time of armageddon.

Therefore armageddon is not an Islamic event, by the time of armageddon the AC is performing acts totally contrary to the religon of Islam, he is his own god aligned with Satan and his minions, the AC is something much worse than a muslim.

[Tevye]

Tevye, prior to the AOD scripture does not conclusively indicate what religion the AC follows, whether he is a muslim or hindu, etc (I believe he is likely Jewish),

Hi, curious, can you provide clear scripture that would indicated
he will be Jewish or that would connect the A/C to a Jewish heritage?

It has been said that Hitler was part Jewish, ironically.
In a way you may be right, genetically speaking....
especially if he comes from a heritage of the Hebrew people.
Who may be descendants in a part of the old Persian empire.
In this event he may be a person deceived of his own ancestry.
Which would give him an advantage and the support of Muslims
leading to his rise of power in an empire made up of Islamic nations
that he would eventually turn his back upon.

[Exit40]

The origins of Islam most definitely existed before John's time. Islam originated from a pagan polytheistic religion that pre-dated John where the people of Arabia worshiped many gods, including the moon god "al-ilah":

Jdg 8:21 Then Zebah and Zalmunna said, Rise thou, and fall upon us: for as the man [is, so is] his strength. And Gideon arose, and slew Zebah and Zalmunna, and took away the ornaments that [were] on their camels' necks.

Ornaments, established from the time of Gideon, and likely for some time before that.

Strong's H7720 - saharon
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) moon, crescent
a) as ornament

God Bless

David

[Exit40]

And, just some thoughts as to some of the problems with the view that the AC is a muslim. Daniel 11 states that the 'king', the AC, will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard of things against the God of gods. In Islam, as Mitchell indicates, the god of gods is Allah. As Allah is supreme in Islam, no one can proclaim themsleves above Allah or superior to Allah, and remain a muslim. And yet the AC does this.

Hi 1whowaits. I figured Mitchell's posts would attract you eventually. Thanks for showing up, I have something new for you since we last discussed this. This is in regards to the mahdi, or as he is called also in islam, the perfect man. Muslims believe Mohammed was a perfect man, similar to our Jesus, and the coming mahdi will be also. Here is an article for your perusal, with a brief quote to tantalize.

The Perfect Human through this developed self-consciousness and self-realization prompts divine self-manifestation.[15] This causes the Perfect Human to be of both divine and earthly origin, al-Arabi calls him the Isthmus. Being the Isthmus between heaven and Earth the perfect human fulfills God’s desire to be known and God’s presence can be realized through him by others.[15] Additionally through self manifestation one acquires divine knowledge, which is the primordial spirit of Muhammad and all its perfection.[15] Al- Arabi details that the perfect human is of the cosmos to the divine and conveys the divine spirit to the cosmos.[15]

Link

Dan 11 further states that the AC will show no regard for the gods of his fathers, if the AC is muslim the god of his fathers would be Allah, a muslim would show regard for Allah to remain a muslim, and yet the AC does not show regard for Allah.

Because he is an Ishmaelite the God of his fathers is the God of Abraham, Jehovah. Our God is the God of his fathers, as Mitchell has reiterated for us, and therefore the true God he shows no regard for.

Dan 11 further states that the AC will not regard any god but exalt himself above them all, including Allah, again not an act of a muslim.

Dan 11 states that the god the AC does honor is unknown to his fathers, Allah is known the world over, making it unlikely that the AC is a muslim.

The second statement in this quote negates the first statement. As allah was unknown to Abraham the god he honors is in fact allah. Also, see the article/quote for further explanation.

In Dan 11 the AC engages the king of the south in battle and Edom, Moab and Egypt (all muslim nations) will fall to him. If the AC is a muslim why is he warring against muslim nations?

This was fulfilled by Antioch, the future AC isn't spoken of until Dan 11:36.

The logical conclusion based on what the AC does in Dan 11 would be that the AC is not a muslim.

Not hardly. While the islamic AC paradigm might not pan out in time, in our time it is a very logical Scripturally sound conclusion.

God Bless You Brother

David

[Mitchell]

Mitchell, (have you posted here previously as Seeker?)

No, this is my first time on the forum. Thank you everyone for the warm welcome. :)

actually the beautiful, holy mountain between the seas (Med and dead) is Jerusalem, the AC meets his end at Jerusalem, which Zech 14 and Joel 3 confirm. Interestingly, Gog is never associated with Jerusalem, there is no evidence that Gog even makes it to Jerusalem, he and his troops are buried in the valley to the east which is an approach to Jerusalem from the dead sea, but it is not Jerusalem.

Scripture does not say anywhere that the AC meets his end in Jerusalem, and there is no conflict with Ezekiel 39:4, which simply refers to Israel. Gog comes to his end in Israel according to Ezekiel, along with those who are with him. Even if Antichrist himself is within the city limits at this time (which Scripture never says), the armies who are with him would not all be packed together inside the city limits. The point of Ezekiel 39:4 is that Gog and his army "shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured" (NKJV). Let's think about this logically. When the Lord gathers all nations against Jerusalem per Zechariah 14, they are simply being gathered against Jerusalem. Joel 3 even says that, "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat". It does not say that they are being gathered in Jerusalem. Ezekiel's description concurs with Zechariah's and Joel's.

The definitive statement regarding the end of the AC is in Rev 19, he is captured 'alive' and cast into the lake of fire

There is nothing in Ezekiel's description that prohibits this from also being true about Gog. Just because certain details are left out does not mean that Ezekiel was describing something entirely different. For example, in 2 Thess 2:1 we agree that Paul is talking about our "rapture", despite the fact that important details such as Christ descending from Heaven, the last trump, the resurrection of the dead, etc. are omitted. Not every last detail needs to be provided. Likewise, Ezekiel simply says that Gog comes to his end in Israel. Daniel similarly also says that he comes to his end "and none shall help him" (Dan 11:45). Not every last detail of the AC needs to be included in Ezekiel's description in order for us to know that the leader of the Magog armies is Antichrist. If it is OK for Daniel, why is it not OK for Ezekiel?

This reminds me of how some of the Jewish people argued when Jesus was on earth. Some debated that he couldn't be the Messiah because Jesus was from Galilee and the Messiah was suppose to come from Bethlehem. Others probably debated that he was suppose to come out of Egypt, but Jesus was from Nazareth. The truth is that the prophecies all spoke about Christ, but from a different perspective. Similarly, it only stands to reason that we would find the same thing regarding Antichrist as well.

Jesus does destroy the AC with the brightness of His coming, Jesus comes and captures the AC alive and casts him into the lake of fire

What destroys the AC, the brightness of His coming, or Him capturing the AC alive and casting him into the lake of fire? Does Jesus do this in Israel, like the prophets Ezekiel and Daniel say?

Jesus is repeatedly described as personally coming and doing the trampling of His enemies at armageddon in Rev 19, Joel 3 and Zech 14. Ezek 38 and 39 describe judgement being sent by God, no direct contact between Jesus and the armies is described as it is in passages referring to armageddon.

John 5:22,27 says that, "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son ... and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man." If the Father judges no one and all authority to execute judgment is given to Jesus, who then is executing judgment upon Gog and his armies, if not Jesus?

Jesus tramples the armies at armageddon and is splattered with their blood, nothing like this is indicated at all in Ezek 38-39.

Does the omission of that detail therefore mean that it isn't Jesus who is executing judgment? What about the fact that both Gog-Magog and Armageddon end with a great earthquake? That both Gog-Magog and Armageddon experience great hailstones? That both Gog-Magog and Armageddon are followed by the "Feast of God"? That the armies of Gog-Magog are confused and attack each other, just as the armies at Armageddon are confused and attack each other? There are many more similarities than there are "differences".

Saying that Jesus is present at Gog because a statement is made of the Holy One 'in' Israel is an unsupported assumption imo, as there is no depiction of Jesus' presence anywhere else in the passage.

If Christ has not yet returned, how can all men upon the earth shake at the presence ["paniym", face] of Jesus per Ezekiel 38:20? This is the parousia (presence) of Jesus Christ.

Alternatively, the 'in Israel' statement can refer to God's presence in the rebuilt temple, the Shekinah glory, as it would be likely that the temple will be rebuilt after Gog-Magog.

The physical temple was only a shadow of the future new temple, which is the Church. God now indwells the Church, not any physical temple. According to the verses below we are continually reminded that the true temple of God is no longer a physical temple — after the final sacrifice of Christ the veil was torn and animal sacrifices were no longer of any value — but is instead now a spiritual temple:

1 Cor 3:17, “If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

1 Peter 2:5, “And now God is building you, as living stones, into his spiritual temple. What’s more, you are God’s holy priests, who offer the spiritual sacrifices that please him because of Jesus Christ.” (NLT)

Eph 2:19-22, “Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner[stone], in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Moreoever, I find it interesting that you referenced a temple after Gog-Magog. Interestingly, Ezekiel was not seeing some type of tribulation temple to be constructed on the Temple Mount in Ezekiel 40. In fact, Ezekiel describes in great detail a temple in Israel that is much too large to fit on the present Temple Mount site. The Temple of Ezekiel proper measures about 875 feet square, and it sits in the middle of a large consecrated area. Ezekiel's temple is also very different in many details from any previous temples that have existed in Israel (or elsewhere). Therefore most Bible scholars believe there will one day exist in the Holy Land a 'Millennial' Temple. According to many Christian Bible scholars, the temple of Ezekiel 40-45 will be 'memorial' - a teaching center apparently to instruct men about the holiness of God and proper worship during the coming kingdom of Jesus on the earth. As sinful men and women continue to be born into the world in the millennium, the temple is supposed to remind everyone of the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross, as the 'Lamb of God,' some 2000+ years earlier.

If we are going to infer that Ezekiel's temple is sequential to the Gog-Magog war, then we'll therefore need to acknowledge that the Gog-Magog war in Ezekiel 38-39 in fact culminates at Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation since Ezekiel's temple is indicative of some type of "Millennial Temple" and is unlike any other temple before it.

As far as the earthquake, as you quote the earthquake in Ezek is in Israel, while the earthquake at armageddon shakes all nations.

Given the context of the battle of Armageddon, this would be the "surrounding nations" according to Zechariah and Joel.

"The differences between Gog-magog and armageddon, between Gog and the AC, are significant and cannot be explained away, imo.

When we dig into the text a little more deeply, they don't need to be explained away at all. They just need to be explained. What we have is simply one event, multiple perspectives. IMHO. :)

[Mitchell]

Daniel 11 states that the 'king', the AC, will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard of things against the God of gods. In Islam, as Mitchell indicates, the god of gods is Allah. As Allah is supreme in Islam, no one can proclaim themsleves above Allah or superior to Allah, and remain a muslim. And yet the AC does this.

A few verses later we read, "But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces" (11:38a). If he magnifies himself above every god, yet honors the "God of forces", he obviously is magnifying himself above all gods except the one whom "he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things" (v. 38b). This is a perfect description of Islam. The religion of "Allah" is a religion of the sword, of conflict, of conquest through military "forces" and "jihad". On one hand Islamists claim to despise "idols", but look at how they honor "Allah" by decking their religious symbols and structures such as crescents, mosques, the "Kaaba", the Qur'an, their prophet Mohammed, even the city of Mecca, which they pray toward, with "gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things." All of these are idols in the eyes of YHWH the true God of Israel, and every one of them will be thrown down in the day of the Lord, as well as that great city.

once he declares himself over every other god, he cannot be a muslim. Once he declares himself over all gods including Allah, making Allah subservient to himself, he is an infidel as far as Islam is concerned... Therefore armageddon is not an Islamic event, by the time of armageddon the AC is performing acts totally contrary to the religon of Islam

When the premiss is flawed to begin with, so too is the conclusion.

To reiterate, and per above, the Muslim world is waiting for a “messianic” figure whom they call “The Mahdi” or “The 12th Imam” that will lead them into a new era of Islamic “justice” that would “spread around the globe” and unite the Ummah (Islamic community of nations) against non-Muslims. Of particular interest here is the fact that Islamists view this figure as the savior, not only for Muslims, but for all of humanity. If the Mahdi proclaimed himself to be — or is proclaimed by the Muslim world to be — the “true savior” of mankind that the whole earth must follow, this would fly directly in the face of God who says in Isaiah 43:11 that “I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior.” According to Scripture, anyone who would proclaim himself to be the savior of the world would therefore be claiming to be God by attributing to himself a title that only God can hold. Jesus did the same thing without telling the Sanhedrin “I am God”, yet when He forgave sins and stated to them that "I Am" and called God His father they understood the theological significance of His words and sought to kill Him because He was "making Himself equal with God" (cf. John 5:18). Antichrist does not have to outright say “I am God” in order to show (“apodeiknymi”, declare) himself as God. While claiming to be the "savior of the world" on one hand, he would deny that he is calling himself God on the other. But according to the God of Israel, this is precisely what Antichrist would be doing.

http://www.al-islam.org/40ahadith-twelfthimam/

Dan 11 further states that the AC will show no regard for the gods of his fathers, if the AC is muslim the god of his fathers would be Allah, a muslim would show regard for Allah to remain a muslim, and yet the AC does not show regard for Allah.

Many Arabs and Muslims are descendants of Ishmael, whose father was Abraham. To not regard “the God of his fathers” means, in my opinion, that the Antichrist will not regard YHWH the true God of Abraham (and Ishmael, whom God took care of after he and Hagar were sent away), but will instead honor a god whom they never knew, one that is forced upon the inhabitants of all nations surrounding Israel by force, and in increasing measure upon the world ...

If the AC is a muslim why is he warring against muslim nations?

Because as Daniel says, "the kingdom shall be divided" (Dan 2:41). The kingdom of Islam is divided into Sunni and Shia. It is divided into extreme and "more extreme". We often hear of Muslims killing other Muslims, of Islamic nations warring against another Islamic nations. We see the Muslim Brotherhood beginning to subjugate those who do not fall in line with their hard-line pro-Sharia agenda. We see al-Qaeda affiliated "rebels" warring against Syria's Assad. Perhaps Turkey will soon join the fray. It's a mess in the Middle East and they are longing for the implementation of the Caliphate. Although 10 nations will give their authority over to Antichrist, there are some who will not, however. Keep your eyes peeled for Iran and its allies to launch an attack against the "apostate" Saudi kingdom, perhaps Dubai also.

[Abiding in His Word]

[good4u1]

Gosh...Abiding...I should win some kind of award for winning the most viewed and controversial threads of this discussion board! I am good at that, apparently!

[Abiding in His Word]

[good4u1]

^^^^^^^^ @ Abiding^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Ready1]

Gosh...Abiding...I should win some kind of award for winning the most viewed and controversial threads of this discussion board! I am good at that, apparently!

Good for you good4u1.

[good4u1]

Thanks, Ready1! I may not have gifts...but I sure know how to get thread views! On all kinds of topics I might add! I wonder what kind of trouble I can stir up now....

But then the devil made me do it...durn him!

[1whowaits]

Teyve, Exit, i thought it might be better to move our discussion over to the 'debate' area, i attempted to respond to your questions there.

Mitchell, actually the AC meets his end at armageddon in Rev 19, and Joel 3 and Zech 14 indicate that armageddon occurs when 'all nations' surround Jerusalem, which would mean that the AC meets his end in Jerusalem, which Dan 11 confirms (the beautiful holy mountain is mount Zion, Jerusalem).

Ezek indicates that Gog is buried with his troops, which would suggest that Gog is likely dead when he is buried. Rev 19 states that the AC is captured alive, not dead, and then cast alive into the lake of fire. Only the AC and FP are cast into the lake prior to the GWTJ, no evidence that this occurs with Gog, who would go with the rest of the unrighteous to the place of holding, Hades. The description of the destruction of Gog vs the AC is significantly different in scripture.

Rev 11 indicates that a literal, physical temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem, one does not measure the temple within christians. Isa 2 indicates that the temple will be present in Jerusalem during the millenium, and Zech 6 suggests that the 'Branch', Jesus, will rebuild it. The temple described in Ezek has millenial aspects to it, but also aspects not consistent with the millenium. The 'prince', who would be Jesus during the millenium, must offer sacrifices for his sin as directed in Ezek 45, which would not be consistent with the millenium. Therefore the temple of Ezek may be built prior to the millenium, say after Gog-Magog perhaps.

The AC elevates himself 'over' all gods, including Allah. The 'perfect human' of Islam could approach equality with Allah (a stretch) but he could not be over Allah or magnify himself above Allah, that would be against the basic tenets of Islam. The AC is not equal, he is over 'all gods', totally contrary to islam.

The god(s) of the fathers of the muslims is considered to be the God of Abraham, Yaweh, which the muslims consider to be the same as Allah. So the AC has no regard for Allah, suggesting that the AC is not a muslim.

The 'god of forces' helps the AC conquer fortresses, the god of forces appears to be a real entity as he actually has power to help the AC. Does Allah have the power described of the god of forces?

i think i answered most of your points, i attempted to answer things a bit further in the debate forum, it looks like we were derailing the thread here so perhpas it would be a better idea to move the discussion over there- God bless.

[clang]

But there appears to be another aspect to the mark, an apparent change in the spiritual condition- 'If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he to will drink of the wine of God's fury...he will be tormented with burning sulfur..and the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.'

The current spiritual condition of man is fallen, but if one worships a false god (Allah), or takes some type of marking associated with that god, or commits sinful acts in the name of that god, one can still turn form those evil ways and accept God's provision in Jesus Christ, right up until the time of death. One can be a muslim, worship a 'Mahdi' and still later convert to Christ and receive eternal life.

But in the taking of the mark and worshipping of the AC appears to change this, Rev 14 appears to state that those who worship the beast and take his mark are then condemned to eternal punishment at that point, there appears to be no provision for repentance. The angel in Rev 14 appears to be stating that the mark should not be taken because if one does take the mark, the punishment is eternal.

So what changes, why is worshipping the AC worse than worshipping any other false god? Cannot Satan worshippers currently turn from their evil and accept Christ a saviour? Why would receiving a physical mark be worse than any other markings men have done through the ages? There appears to be more to the mark, something that changes the spiritual condition (and the physical?) so that apparently one is beyond rescue.


Are there beings in scripture who are beyond rescue, who cannot repent, who are not afforded forgiveness?

The mark may suggest an answer, it is the name of the beast or the number of his name. The number of the beast is man's number, 6, but it is also partly God's number, 3. This would suggest that the beast claims to be or appears to be combination of both numbers, a 'man-god', a hybrid, a combination of a spirit being (3) and a physical being (6). How would one become a man-god? Have there been such beings in the past? Were they beyond redemption?

I actually believe you may be getting close to the truth here my friend. Could receiving the MOB actually change a persons DNA, thus the condemnation. Genetic manipulation today is certainly pointing in that direction.

[lamb7]

Mitchell, sorry I did not respond sooner. This post was on the Mark of the Beast and to be honest, I hadn’t really delved into the Seal of God and whether it was literal or not. I have always understood our Sealing in the Holy Spirit as something invisible, but as I went about searching and studying, I find that in Ezekiel 9 God does ‘mark’ His people; is it literal? That is the question and I thank you for asking!

Now, I have to question whether this is a foreshadowing to that future Tribulation, as Ezekiel is a prophet and it must have some bearing on the times we find ourselves in; but I also must seek out the advice of others here, as I have stated, it is something I have not studied in depth.

I still believe the ‘Mark of the Beast’ is a literal one and I am finding that maybe the ‘Seal of God’, too, may be.

In either case, I must admit that yes, I did switch up my symbolism in my previous post; thank you for pointing it out. When we speak, we are to speak as if they were God’s very own words. When I see such an error then I know I ‘spoke’ out of my own weakness, as I wanted to quickly stick my 2 cents in the conversation. Although it may have been out of a sincere passion to represent my beliefs, I should still always meditate upon what I am going to write, as it is something I usually try to do; so, my apologies!

I am still in the process of seeking out the meaning in Revelation 9:4, concerning the Seal of God, so I will bow out for now as it looks like the thread is taking a turn to a slightly different mode than the one to which I posted, but look forward to seeing what others have to say concerning this most important topic.

Revelation 9:4
(NIV)
4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

[Mitchell]

Mitchell, actually the AC meets his end at armageddon in Rev 19, and Joel 3 and Zech 14 indicate that armageddon occurs when 'all nations' surround Jerusalem, which would mean that the AC meets his end in Jerusalem

Hi 1whowaits, Revelation 19 shows John's vision of Armageddon, yes, but he says nothing about Antichrist meeting his end in Jerusalem. We read in Rev 19:17-19, "Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, 'Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all [people], free and slave, both small and great.' And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army." Ezekiel describes the same scene in 39:4, "You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who [are] with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and [to] the beasts of the field to be devoured."

Surrounding Jerusalem does not mean that the AC and his armies are in Jerusalem. We cannot force that meaning into the text when it isn't there. Joel 3 tells us that God will "bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat."

which Dan 11 confirms (the beautiful holy mountain is mount Zion, Jerusalem).

Daniel 11:45 says "And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him." If he is between the seas and the "holy mountain", he cannot be in Jerusalem.

Ezek indicates that Gog is buried with his troops, which would suggest that Gog is likely dead when he is buried... The description of the destruction of Gog vs the AC is significantly different in scripture.

Even if his physical body is dead, do you not agree that his spirit is still very much alive? Or is it your belief that the body and soul of Antichrist will both be annihilated? Where would the justice be in that? I see no conflict between Ezekiel's description, Daniel's description, Paul's description and John's description. They all describe the same event through their own lens and camera angle: the end of Antichrist.

Rev 11 indicates that a literal, physical temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem

Let's examine the text to see if it does. In Revelation 11:1 we read, “Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, ‘Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there’” (Rev 11:1).

One thing I’ve always wondered is why was John given a “rod” and told to “measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein“? I’m sure that an entire word study could be done on just the word “rod” (cf Psa. 23:4, Thy rod and Thy staff shall comfort me), or “measure” (cf Hab 3:6, He stood and measured the earth …), but let’s take another look here at temple and the temple imagery instead:

1. The very first time we find the word “temple” in Revelation is in 3:12a regarding the Church in Philadelphia when Christ says, “He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.” For one to be made a pillar in the temple it must mean that the temple in view here is not one made of stone, but rather one that is made of people.

2. Lampstands/candlesticks were important items that were found in the physical temple in the Old Testament, yet John shows us that this time the lampstands/candlesticks in the temple are represented by the two witnesses (11:4), which again would indicate that the temple in view is not a physical temple made of stone, but rather one of people.

3. In the Old Testament a priest was one who served within the physical temple of God. In Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 we are told that anyone who has been washed by the blood of Christ is a priest, and the Christian understanding of this according to 1 Peter 2:5 is that as priests we now “offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” We no longer offer animal sacrifices in a temple made of stone.

This of course reminds me of Ephesians 2:19-22, which says, “Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner[stone], in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

In light of what we have learned, could it not therefore stand to reason that when John speaks of the temple being trampled on in chapter 11 that he is referring to God’s people, and not a physical third temple per se built in Jerusalem? Absolutely.

With that thought in mind, we begin to see the text in a whole new light:

2 Thess 2:3-4,8, “Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day [the day of the Lord] will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed — the one who brings destruction ... He will position himself [eis -- in, toward, against] --> the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God ... And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.”

1 Cor 3:17, “If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

If the Mahdi stands up in defiance against the Ekklesia (God's temple) and claims to be their saviour whom they must follow, this would be utter blasphemy against YHWH and His Messiah. The Mahdi could easily approach the temple mount where the Islamic Dome of the Rock stands and from there make the proclamation to be the “savior of mankind” whom both Jews and Christians must follow. Not only would Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians recognize this as an affront to the faith of Christ and the significance of this event, even orthodox Jews would know that this would be a declaration of divinity, someone other than God showing himself to be God. They, too, understand Isaiah 43:11 as God declares “I am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior.” Indeed, “…I am God, and there is none like Me” (Isaiah 46:9).

Antichrist will not take this rejection lightly.

one does not measure the temple within christians.

Romans 11:25, "For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

Has come in to what? If we as Gentile believers have been adopted into the family of God through Christ and have become fellow citizens with the saints as members of the household of God, being built together into God's holy temple, does it not stand to reason that when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in that the temple will be ready? When a builder has completed his building, does he not take one final survey to confirm that what he built is complete and ready according to plan?

Isa 2 indicates that the temple will be present in Jerusalem during the millenium, and Zech 6 suggests that the 'Branch', Jesus, will rebuild it.

In light of what we have learned above, guess what Isaiah is referring to in Isaiah 2:2 when he writes that "the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains". Yep, it is us. It is the Church. :)

Let me explain.

When Jesus said in John 14 that He was going to prepare a place for us, what is it that He would be building? I believe the answer is already given in Matthew 16:18 when Jesus says, “I will build my church (ekklesia G1577)“. As we can see from above, the Church is the spiritual Temple. Many Christians today, however, are taught that the Church is a New Testament creation that is completely distinct from Israel and is parenthetical to the plan of God, a teaching based upon traditional dispensationalism which posits that the Church only began at Pentecost and did not exist in the Old Testament. According to this view everyone — including Jews — can be a part of the NT Church if they believe in Jesus. According to the whole of Scripture, however, the traditional dispensational view does not convey the full, Biblical definition of precisely what the Church is.

When Jesus says that He will “build” (oikodomeō) His Church the word build carries with it the meaning “to build up from the foundation.” Contrary to pop-theology the Church did not begin at Pentecost. It began in the Old Testament where the foundation of the Church had already been laid. Because of Jesus, everyone who believes would be added to His Church (cf Acts 2:46-47 – “And the Lord added to the church (ekklesia G1577) daily those who were being saved) and would no longer be foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone (Eph 2).

This should be evident to us when Jesus explained to His disciples how to resolve conflicts in Matthew 18:15-17, saying, ”If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (ekklesia G1577); and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector….” Now, this is in the book of Matthew and many Christians believe that Jesus was addressing this teaching to a Jewish audience only, yet here He is calling them the Church. Since the Church — as it is taught by traditional dispensationalism — was not yet formed until after Pentecost, what was Christ referring to? The answer is simple: it was the Church, and the dispensational teaching regarding its post-Pentecost nature is incomplete because Scripture clearly tells us that the Church existed in the Old Testament all along:

Acts 7:36-38, “He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church (ekklesia G1577) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us”

1 Corinthians 10:2-4, “And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

According to Scripture, the Church therefore did not begin at Pentecost. It was increased at Pentecost. The Church began in the Old Testament with the assembly of believers of Israel. These are they who put their faith in God’s promise of a coming Deliverer, in the hope of Messiah. It is because of their Messiah that we as Gentiles who believe are adopted into this family of God. In other words, we should not view believing Jews as being a part of the Church because they believe in Jesus, but rather it is we as Gentiles who are now a part of the Church because we believe in Yeshua. We have become a part of Jacob. This is the Temple that He has been building. This is the place that Christ has been preparing.

John 14:2b-3a, “… I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself …”

The 'prince', who would be Jesus during the millenium, must offer sacrifices for his sin as directed in Ezek 45, which would not be consistent with the millenium.

Your wording seems to imply that Jesus sins. But Jesus has not and cannot sin (2 Cor 5:21). Additionally, animal sacrifices have never taken away sin, even in the Old Testament. They merely served as a reminder of sin (Heb 10). The saints of old, like today, were all justified by faith. If animal sacrifices were to be carried out literally during the Millennium (to which I have my doubts, personally, and there are varying opinions regarding whether these are literal or not), it would not be to take away sin, but merely to serve as a reminder of Christ's sacrifice -- not for us, but for the generations who enter into and are born into Christ's earthly Millennial Kingdom.

The AC elevates himself 'over' all gods, including Allah.

Keep in mind the perspective from which Antichrist is doing this. According to him, all gods are false, including the God of Israel. However, in the eyes of Antichrist, Allah is the only one who would not be false. This is why he "shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods" yet "shall honor a god of fortresses; and a god which his fathers did not know he shall honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and pleasant things". Daniel shows us that Antichrist is magnifying himself above every god, but for one.

The god(s) of the fathers of the muslims is considered to be the God of Abraham, Yaweh, which the muslims consider to be the same as Allah.

YHWH is not Allah. Abraham's God was YHWH. Ishmael's God was YHWH. Antichrist's god is Allah. He does not regard the God of his fathers and will instead "speak blasphemies against the God of gods" because he will believe that the God of Jews and Christians is false.

The 'god of forces' helps the AC conquer fortresses, the god of forces appears to be a real entity as he actually has power to help the AC. Does Allah have the power described of the god of forces?

Allah is Satan. Satan is real. But he is not the One True God who spoke the universe into existence.

Allah has 99 names in the Qur'an, and one of them is The Destroyer. In Revelation 9:11, the "locusts" that come out the bottomless pit have a king over them named "Abaddōn" in the Hebrew, which means "destruction", or "Apollyōn" in the Greek, which means "Destroyer". Even look at the name of Satan in Isaiah 14:12, Lucifer. In the Hebrew his name is "heylel" which means "light-bearer". The Arabic equivalent "hilal" means "crescent moon".

The Prophet Isaiah, in describing the condition of the earth at the time leading up to the Second Coming of Messiah, says that “the curse [alah] has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate” (Isa 24:6). To dwell in the earth does not in and of itself make one “desolate”. But the same cannot be said for those who dwell in the “curse.”

http://www.discerningthetimesonline.net ... dStar.html

it looks like we were derailing the thread here

This is actually related to the original topic of the thread. If the Antichrist is Islamic, then the Mark of the Beast is, at the very least, directly associated with Islam.

[1whowaits]

Clang, it is interesting what can be accomplished through genetic manipulation. We usually think of genetic manipulation as cloning and hybrids that are 'conceived' in the test tube and the brought to birth. But is does appear that full grown adults could be subjected to genetic manipulation.

Viruses invade cells and take them over causing the cell to produce a material alien to the cell, ususally more viruses. It appears possible to use such a vector to insert new commands into the nucleus of a developed cell and cause it to carry out functions for which it was not oringinally designed. if one developed a vector to invade most or all of the cells in a human body, one could alter that human body on a cellular level, and produce an altered human. This process would not happen overnight, it would take some time, and would likely be quite painful as the nervous system would still be functioning.

Which brings to mind Rev 9- 'locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. they were not given the power to kill them, only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. During those days men will seek death, but will not find it. They will long to die, but death will elude them.'

What is this passage describing? It appears that a hybrid being injects a substance into a human which then causes great suffering in that human for what appears to be 5 months. During that time or after that injection the human seeks death but cannot find it, usually not a problem for humans considering the fragility of the human body. Has the injected human been altered, has the human become enhanced making death of the body difficult?

And what could occur at the injection site of a foreign substance such as a virus? How does one know whether one has been immunized in the past against smallpox? Check your shoulder and look for the mark.

i am just speculating, but it appears that scripture does describe some things that are difficult to explain. Why does Rev appear to state that those who take the mark and worship the AC are eternally condemned, when even the worst of sinners has some chance to repent right up until the time of death?

The only beings in scripture that have no chance to repent are the fallen angels, who are held in everlasting chains. And it would follow that their offspring, the Nephilium, produced outside of the command and plan of God, are also condemned with no chance of repentance. It is believed that the deceased Nephilium are the source of the demons who appear to be separate entities from the fallen angels, but condemned to the same place of torment, the Abyss.

it is not clear why the fallen angels made these Nephilium, some believe there was a desire to corrupt the genetic line of humanity so that the Messiah could not be born. In any case it appears that Satan's agenda was to alter the creation of God, to go outside the human genetic code that God had set up, to make beings unacceptable and unredeemable to God.

What if that is still Satan's agenda?

[Jericho]

What if that is still Satan's agenda?

That is certainly a possibility, have you heard of Tom Horn or .LA. Marzulli?

[1whowaits]

Mitchell, regarding Jerusalem and armageddon, Zech 14 describes all nations gathering to Jerusalem, looting the city and taking 1/2 the pop into captivity, when Jesus sets foot on the mount, it appears that they AC and the nations are in the city of Jerusalem. Joel 3 states all nations gather to the valley of Jehosaphat, a valley just outside the old city of Jerusalem, which would now be inside the city of Jerusalem. The meets his end at armageddon, armageddon occurs at Jerusalem.

Rev 11 describes a temple that can be measured with an altar and outer court, not consistent with any depiction of a christian. Although we as christians are God's temple, there is nothing to suggest that Israel will not rebuild the temple, and Rev 11 confims this.

Zech 14 states that Jesus, the King,, will rule from Jerusalem during the millenium. Isa 2 states that - 'the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains....many peoples will come and say, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways...he will judge between the nations..'

The house of the God of Jacob is the temple, 'He' who teaches and judges is Jesus, Jesus rules from the temple in Jerusalem. As Jesus rules from the temple during the millenium, He has no problem with a rebuilt temple. And Zech 14 even mentions sacrifices- 'and all who come to sacrifice...'

We are God's temple, and we will be present during the millenium, but Jesus has no problem with a literal, physical temple being present at the same time we are.

And i realize you have no problem with the AC and Gog being seen as having the same demise, but that is not a straightforward reading of scripture.

I would agree that Yahweh is not Allah, but the muslims do view Yahweh and Allah as the same. If the AC shows no regard for Yahweh, he shows no regard for Allah, as muslims believe they are 1 in the same, the AC would then not be Islamic, as he shows no regard for Allah.

[Tevye]

To keep the train on track... I'm posting a reply here:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=63573

[Mitchell]

Mitchell, regarding Jerusalem and armageddon, Zech 14 describes all nations gathering to Jerusalem, looting the city and taking 1/2 the pop into captivity

Hi 1whowaits. Note, however, that Zechariah is not saying all nations in the whole literal world. He is saying all of the surrounding nations will be gathered against Jerusalem (cf. Zechariah 12:2, 14:14, Joel 3:11-12, Ezekiel 28:24-26). Who are all the nations? The Hebrew text says “goy cabiyb” and this can very easily mean the surrounding Gentiles or the Gentiles round about. The references listed above even indicate that this is the case:

Zechariah 14:14 “Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the SURROUNDING NATIONS will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.”

Zechariah 12:2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the SURROUNDING PEOPLES reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.”

Joel 3:11-12 “Hasten and come, all you SURROUNDING NATIONS, And gather yourselves there. Bring down, O LORD, Your mighty ones. Let the nations be aroused And come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, For there I will sit to judge All the SURROUNDING NATIONS.”

Ezekiel 28:24-26 “‘No longer will the people of Israel have malicious NEIGHBORS who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. ” ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their NEIGHBORS WHO MALIGNED AGAINST THEM. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God.’”

The nations surrounding Israel are today all Muslim nations. Also keep in mind that Jerusalem, and particularly the eastern half of Jerusalem -- the"old city" -- is already largely comprised of Muslims (not to mention Gaza and the West Bank). "As of 2005, Jerusalem is home to 475,000 Jews and 245,000 Arabs. This 66 percent Jewish - 34 percent Arab ratio is narrowing by about 1 percentage point a year. As Jerusalem’s Arab population swells and Jewish population shrinks, Israelis are becoming increasingly concerned about the difficulty of maintaining Jerusalem’s status as the eternal capital of the Jewish State in the future" (http://tinyurl.com/cvhzxtr). When the Muslims who already live in Jerusalem and the numerous militants already in the area see Islamic armies gathering against Jerusalem you can rest assure that they are going to band together and spread chaos the likes of which Jerusalem has not seen since 70 AD.

when Jesus sets foot on the mount, it appears that they AC and the nations are in the city of Jerusalem.

The text doesn't say that. Logically, these armies would be too vast to even fit within the city limits, but the armies of the Islamic countries that surround Israel can fit in the "valley of decision" outside of Jerusalem. It's possible that there may be some forces inside the city in addition to the Muslims who already reside there, but the text doesn't tell us and Israel will do everything in its power to keep Islamic armies out up until the very end.

Joel 3 states all nations gather to the valley of Jehosaphat, a valley just outside the old city of Jerusalem, which would now be inside the city of Jerusalem.

No one knows for sure where the "valley of Jehoshaphat" is located. Judging from all indications in the text, it is not some small valley in Jerusalem. It may simply be a play on words meaning "Jehovah has judged" in reference to the "valley of decision". Or it could be referring to the Kidron Valley to the east through the Judean Desert towards the Dead Sea, which was called the "valley of Jehoshaphat" for centuries, or the valley in between Jerusalem and Hebron. In any case, it is not inside Jerusalem.

meets his end at armageddon, armageddon occurs at Jerusalem.

Just outside Jerusalem, but not inside.

Rev 11 describes a temple that can be measured with an altar and outer court, not consistent with any depiction of a christian. Although we as christians are God's temple, there is nothing to suggest that Israel will not rebuild the temple, and Rev 11 confims this.

1 Peter 2:4-5, "Coming to Him [as to] a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God [and] precious, you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

The temple of God and the altar are measured, not the outer court. The altar is very much consistent with the depiction of Christians. If we are described as living stones who are being built up into a temple of the Lord, does it not stand to reason that this spiritual temple will therefore also have a spiritual altar, especially given the fact that Peter describes us as a "holy priesthood" who offers up "spiritual sacrifices"? Absolutely. But the "outer court" is not measured because it is given over to those who trample upon the "holy city" for 42 months. What is the holy city? See Rev. 21:2, "And I John saw the holy city ... prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." We are that holy city.

And i realize you have no problem with the AC and Gog being seen as having the same demise, but that is not a straightforward reading of scripture.

The straightforward reading of the text simply says that Antichrist comes to his end in Israel. It never says that he will come to his end in Jerusalem.

I would agree that Yahweh is not Allah, but the muslims do view Yahweh and Allah as the same.

It doesn't matter what their view is. They are utterly wrong. They will argue that Allah is the God of the Hebrew Scriptures and say that Abraham worshiped Allah, but this is an obvious lie. The Muslims believe that, according to the Qur'an, Allah is a cunning deceiver who commands men to sin in order to destroy them and leads people away from the truth and towards immorality, that Allah cancels out older verses with newer verses, that Allah is the author of carnal pleasures, that Allah has no Son and is not Triune, that Allah does not love sinners, that Allah is not truly personal or knowable or approachable, that Allah judges you by your works to determine who makes it into heaven and who does not, etc. This is not the God of the Bible.

If the AC shows no regard for Yahweh, he shows no regard for Allah, as muslims believe they are 1 in the same, the AC would then not be Islamic, as he shows no regard for Allah.

This is a false argument. They do not believe that God has a Son who was sent into this world to die for our sins. They do not believe in the Triunity of One God. The very foundation upon which the Christian faith is built -- God in the flesh and Him crucified -- is considered by Muslims to be the greatest of sins that anyone can commit and is unforgivable. Obviously, Muslims already show no regard for YHWH whatsoever. As such, are we to reasonably believe that if Antichrist likewise shows no regard for YHWH that he therefore shows no regard for Allah?

[clang]

Clang, it is interesting what can be accomplished through genetic manipulation. We usually think of genetic manipulation as cloning and hybrids that are 'conceived' in the test tube and the brought to birth. But is does appear that full grown adults could be subjected to genetic manipulation.

Viruses invade cells and take them over causing the cell to produce a material alien to the cell, ususally more viruses. It appears possible to use such a vector to insert new commands into the nucleus of a developed cell and cause it to carry out functions for which it was not oringinally designed. if one developed a vector to invade most or all of the cells in a human body, one could alter that human body on a cellular level, and produce an altered human. This process would not happen overnight, it would take some time, and would likely be quite painful as the nervous system would still be functioning.

Which brings to mind Rev 9- 'locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. they were not given the power to kill them, only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. During those days men will seek death, but will not find it. They will long to die, but death will elude them.'

What is this passage describing? It appears that a hybrid being injects a substance into a human which then causes great suffering in that human for what appears to be 5 months. During that time or after that injection the human seeks death but cannot find it, usually not a problem for humans considering the fragility of the human body. Has the injected human been altered, has the human become enhanced making death of the body difficult?

And what could occur at the injection site of a foreign substance such as a virus? How does one know whether one has been immunized in the past against smallpox? Check your shoulder and look for the mark.

i am just speculating, but it appears that scripture does describe some things that are difficult to explain. Why does Rev appear to state that those who take the mark and worship the AC are eternally condemned, when even the worst of sinners has some chance to repent right up until the time of death?

The only beings in scripture that have no chance to repent are the fallen angels, who are held in everlasting chains. And it would follow that their offspring, the Nephilium, produced outside of the command and plan of God, are also condemned with no chance of repentance. It is believed that the deceased Nephilium are the source of the demons who appear to be separate entities from the fallen angels, but condemned to the same place of torment, the Abyss.

it is not clear why the fallen angels made these Nephilium, some believe there was a desire to corrupt the genetic line of humanity so that the Messiah could not be born. In any case it appears that Satan's agenda was to alter the creation of God, to go outside the human genetic code that God had set up, to make beings unacceptable and unredeemable to God.

What if that is still Satan's agenda?

I do believe that this very well could be a large part of the enemy's agenda. Tom Horn has done an amazing amount of research on this subject. What is going on in labs around the world is not just dangerous, but insane.

[1whowaits]

Clang, yes it is insane, people are actually asking for this. At the beginning the evil one said, take this and you will be 'like God'. Now the similar statement appears to be made, take this and you will become like the 'gods', you will become 'gods'. Could the last great deception be the same as the first?

It is interesting that the greek myths about the 'gods' are making a comeback in popular culture. Part man, part god or part man, part animal beings are celebrated as the heroes of old, the demi-gods, men of renown, which appears to be the statement made in Gen 6 of the fallen, the Nephilium, they were celebrated.

If genetic manipulation is the result of the taking of the mark, there could be some interesting implications from scripture. If Rev 9 is describing what happens after taking the mark, the torture for 5 months, then it would appear that christians are 'immune' to the mark. Many worry that they could inadvertanatly take the mark, but it appears possible that christians cannot take the mark because those who have the seal on God on their forehead cannot be touched by the locusts of Rev 9. As christians are God's possession, it would make sense that He would prevent them from being altered by an outside force. So they can behead us but they can't make us take the mark, because we are already marked by God, and that mark cannot be altered.

Also Jesus stated in Matt 24 that if those days had not been cut short, no life would be saved, but for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. Life in this passage is translated as 'flesh', as in no 'flesh' would be saved, and can also be translated as 'of human origin', as in no 'of human origin' would be saved. The implication could be, if genetic alteration were occurring, that if the days continued, there would be no of human origin life left, all human life would either be altered or killed.

[1whowaits]

Mitchell, actually Zech 14:2 and Joel 3:2 both say 'all nations' are gathered, all nations would appear to mean all of the nations of the world. And this is consistent with Rev 16 and 19 which describe all the kings of the world (and by implication their armies) being gathered- 'that go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day.....then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse..'

All nations gather for armageddon to Jerusalem, Harmegddon appears to be just the assembly point. The armies likely do extend some distance from Jerusalem, it appears that Jesus tramples the armies as far away as Bozrah, He is pictured as returning from Bozrah with His garments stained with their blood. But as the armies that gather are taking the people of Jerusalem captive according to Zech 14, and Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives and battles them according to Zech 14, the armies are indeed inside Jerusalem. And as Rev 19 appears to describe the AC at the head of the gathered armies, he would be the most powerful opponent, and the armies are indeed inside of Jerusalem, it appears highly likely that the AC meets his end if Jerusalem (or just outside if you prefer- no significant difference).

Which is not decribed of Gog, Gog is never described as being anywhere near Jerusalem. And Gog gathers only a limited number of armies, not 'all nations' as clearly stated in Zech 14, Joel 3 and Rev 16 and 19.

We are all part of the body of Christ, but we are also individual temples of the Holy Spirit (do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?) Christians are described as individual temples and do not fit the description of the temple of God in Rev 11, where is the outer court of any individual christian? Where is the inner court of any individual christian? Who are those worshippers inside any individual christian?

Also, the AC sets himself in God's temple, procaliming himself to be God, according to 2 Thess 2. If the individual christian is the temple being referred to, the AC then has the power to eject the Holy Spirit from the individual christian and then take over that christian, which cannot be done, no one can take any christian out of the Father's hand, as Jesus has stated.

And it is well documented that the muslims consider the God of Abraham and Allah to be the same God. If the AC is a muslim, and he says unheard of things against the God of gods, the God of Abraham, he would be speaking against Allah, as muslims consider them to be one in the same god. So either the AC doesn't get the message that Islam considers the God of gods, the God of Abraham, and Allah to be the same god, or the AC is not a muslim.

[Exit40]

Hi 1WW.

And this is consistent with Rev 16 and 19 which describe all the kings of the world (and by implication their armies) being gathered- 'that go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day.....then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse..'

At this point how many kings are there ? My understanding is ten.

Which is not decribed of Gog, Gog is never described as being anywhere near Jerusalem. And Gog gathers only a limited number of armies, not 'all nations' as clearly stated in Zech 14, Joel 3 and Rev 16 and 19.

Eze 38:9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.

How big is a cloud ? It covers the land, and likely is much bigger than Israel proper when they are considered to be muslim. This has also been compared to a river overflowing it's banks, and stretching wings that cover. Yes, they will be in Jerusalem too. They are already almost everywhere in the ME. Can't get around that part.

Isa 8:7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, [even] the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach [even] to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

Gog/magog is the invasion and occupation of Israel. How long this lasts before the armies of the ten kings gather at the Valley of Decision is not known, but apparently this is the time of Jacob's trouble, the overrunning and devastation of the Jews in Israel. You know how that goes, it is the time that is cut short. I have to wonder what the land will look like after gog/magog. I can't imagine in less than seven years the glorious non muslim kingdom of the final beast empire will even want anything to do with it, that is if it goes that way.

And it is well documented that the muslims consider the God of Abraham and Allah to be the same God. If the AC is a muslim, and he says unheard of things against the God of gods, the God of Abraham, he would be speaking against Allah, as muslims consider them to be one in the same god. So either the AC doesn't get the message that Islam considers the God of gods, the God of Abraham, and Allah to be the same god, or the AC is not a muslim.

You are misunderstanding the muslim mind here. They state that our Jehovah is actually allah, that our Scripture has been corrupted by evil men, and the koran and mohammed are the final say in the matter. This is what makes them angry, we continue to believe it is our God Jehovah while they are claiming it is actually allah. We do not accept mohammed or the koran as the final say, they adamantly do. It is our refusal to acknowledge their god that angers them so. At some point the global debate on this will end, they will become deluded and demented enough to invade and bring on the end times, according to them, which is the beginning of the end times as we know it. Ours doesn't start until their after they have conquered and devastated the Jews in Israel, apparently for some time, and they force their god upon us.

God Bless You

David

[good4u1]

I also see it exactly as David (Exit 40) does in his last post, Onewho. It is time for re-evaluation. Biblical prophecy is not a science but an art and re-tuning our understanding is a constant exercise in what Scripture says in light of world events. But then time will be the great teller of truth.

[Mitchell]

Mitchell, actually Zech 14:2 and Joel 3:2 both say 'all nations' are gathered, all nations would appear to mean all of the nations of the world. And this is consistent with Rev 16 and 19 which describe all the kings of the world (and by implication their armies) being gathered- 'that go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day.....then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse..'

Hi 1whowaits, given the fact that prophecy is very Middle Eastern and Israel-centric, and that there are obviously resistor nations that wage war against Antichrist, it only stands to reason that these expressions are synecdochical. Not only does the whole of Scripture give us numerous clues pointing us to an understanding that the scope of Antichrist’s rule will be limited, even the words chosen by the authors — under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit — allow such a meaning. For instance, in Revelation 13:8 John used the word “gē”, which need not only mean the entire literal planet. It also means “a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region” as well. I would contend that if the Spirit’s intent were to be over the whole literal globe, John would have likely been inspired to use a much better word such as “kosmos” (cf Acts 17:24) to convey such a meaning.

We see many examples of this figure of speech elsewhere. Here are a few that are quite obvious:

Luke 2:1-3, “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.”

Mark 1:5, “And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.”

Daniel 2:36-38, “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.”

Ezra 1:2, “Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD Elohim of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth;”

Romans 10:18, “But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”

Using a bit of common sense we already know the answers to the following questions, but in light of the verses above let’s ask the obvious: Did Caesar literally tax the whole world? Did every last man, woman and child in Judea and Jerusalem get baptized in the Jordan River? Did Nebuchadnezzar or Cyrus literally rule over the entire earth, ruling over the native Indians in North and South America? Was the Gospel preached to the whole literal earth during the lives of the disciples? We know that the answer to each of these questions is no. The verses above are obvious example of a synecdoche, an expression that uses a part for the whole, or the whole for a part. It’s like saying “the whole world watched the Super Bowl on Sunday” and is obviously not meant to be taken literally. Likewise, we often see this expression in Scripture, especially when we read about kings and their kingdoms, and the end-of-days leader identified as Antichrist is no different.

Not only are there no verses that describe the rule of Antichrist in a literally global sense in the original text, there are many verses that prohibit this understanding. Antichrist cannot have dominion over the whole literal planet if he needs to wage wars against other nations. He cannot have dominion over the whole literal planet if even one nation is able to “escape his hand.” He cannot have dominion over the whole planet when other nations are waging war against him right up until the end (Dan 11:39-45). Additionally, every nation that Scripture describes as being judged by Christ at Armageddon is today an Islamic nation. “Rome” is not an Islamic nation and is often mentioned in Scripture, but never as one destroyed by Christ at Armageddon.

Revelation 6:8, “And I looked, and behold a chlōros [green] horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the thērion [brutal, savage men] of the earth.”

In a brief commentary to the article titled “The Christian Era in the Middle East is Over, ‘Will Be Completely Green, the Colour of Islam’” that I posted over on MidnightWatcher's Blogspot (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-3a0), I wrote that in Revelation 6:8 John describes the “fourth horseman of the Apocalypse” as being “chlōros”, literally translated as “green”. Green is the official color of Islam and is believed to have been Mohammed’s favorite (http://tinyurl.com/bpuxfd8). The “fourth horseman” is described as having power over the fourth part of the earth. I don’t believe that it is a mere coincidence that Islam today has dominion over a fourth part of the earth (http://tinyurl.com/d536fxs). John describes the “fourth horseman” as having the power to “kill with sword.” Islam is spread through Jihad, the “Sword of Islam” (http://tinyurl.com/2tvac). The “fourth horseman” also kills with hunger/famine. Spiritual destitution aside, Islamists would even prefer to see children starve to death than have them receive life-saving aid from the “Christian West” (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2QC). The “fourth horseman” kills with “death”, and the love of death in suicide and martyrdom operations against men, women and children for the cause of “Allah” permeates Islamic culture, so much that they openly declare to “love death more than you love life” (http://tinyurl.com/826wm4s). Lastly, the “fourth horseman” is described as killing with “the beasts of the earth.” The Greek word “thērion” here is, I believe, being used metaphorically to refer to “savage”, “brutal” and “bestial” men, a perfect description of what we see today in the radical world of Islam’s death seekers (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2jo).

Now think about the following very carefully. After John writes about the Fourth Horseman that has power over a forth part of the earth he then describes the martyrs of Jesus and the events that take place “immediately after the tribulation” according to Christ in Matthew 24:29. If, as you believe, the dominion of Antichrist will have power over every nation in the whole literal world, then why does the Fourth Horseman of the Apocalypse only have power over a fourth part of the earth?

Which is not decribed of Gog, Gog is never described as being anywhere near Jerusalem. And Gog gathers only a limited number of armies, not 'all nations' as clearly stated in Zech 14, Joel 3 and Rev 16 and 19.

It is easily demonstrated from the full counsel of Scripture that Antichrist himself only gathers a limited number of nations. Antichrist will have authority over "all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" in the same sense that Nebuchadnezzar had authority over all people, nations, and languages that dwell in all the earth according to Daniel 4:1. Nebuchadnezzar did not control the Americas. He did not rule over Greenland. He was not an ancient Emperor of Japan, and the list goes on. These are obvious examples of synecdochic language. History and archaeology testifies that Nebuchadnezzar's rule was relegated to the Middle East only. Daniel’s words, like John’s, are a figure of speech and are not intended to be understood in a wooden literal sense.

Daniel 4:1, "Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth ..."

Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

We are all part of the body of Christ, but we are also individual temples of the Holy Spirit (do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?)

Excellent! Yes, that is correct.

Christians are described as individual temples and do not fit the description of the temple of God in Rev 11

Ah, that is where I have to disagree. In John 14:1-3, Jesus said that in His Father’s house were many mansions. Some translations say many rooms. When we look at the word translated as mansions or rooms (monē) in John 14:2 we can see that it means, simply enough, “a staying, abiding, dwelling, abode; to make an (one’s) abode; metaph. of God the Holy Spirit indwelling believers”. So what would this mean? As was mentioned above, the body of believers (all of us) are being built together into a spiritual Temple. But as believers in Christ we are ourselves a dwelling place individually according to 1 Corinthians 6:19. But now think about this: Is not a building a collection of individual rooms built together as one single structure? Individually we are the many rooms within the Father’s house, but being built together we form His Temple, and the Temple of Revelation 11 is a perfect description of one that is not made of stone, but of people.

where is the outer court of any individual christian?

We are the dwelling place of God, not the outer court. The outer court is not measured, and it is not where God dwells.

Also, the AC sets himself in God's temple, procaliming himself to be God, according to 2 Thess 2. If the individual christian is the temple being referred to, the AC then has the power to eject the Holy Spirit from the individual christian and then take over that christian, which cannot be done

Scripture does not say that the Holy Spirit is "ejected". Christ will remain in anyone and everyone who remains in Him.

Let's examine the text closely. 2 Thess 2:3-4,8 says, “Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day [the day of the Lord] will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed — the one who brings destruction ... He will position himself [eis -- in, toward, against] --> the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God ... And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.”

The "man of lawlessness" stands eis the Temple of God. The word eis also means toward and against. All the "man of lawlessness" would need to do is give himself an office or title that only God can hold -- such as the office of "savior" -- therefore positioning himself as God. In his attempt to defile the Temple of God the "man of lawlessness" is subsequently destroyed by the epiphaneia of Christ's coming. See what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:17:

1 Cor 3:17, “If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

no one can take any christian out of the Father's hand, as Jesus has stated.

Correct. But keep it in context. He is referring to His Sheep, not simply anybody who claims to be a believer (cf John 10:26-27). The elect will not be deceived by the "man of lawlessness".

And it is well documented that the muslims consider the God of Abraham and Allah to be the same God. If the AC is a muslim, and he says unheard of things against the God of gods, the God of Abraham, he would be speaking against Allah, as muslims consider them to be one in the same god.

Bible: 1 John 2:22, "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

Islam denies the Father and the Son. Islam speaks blasphemies against YHWH. Are you saying that Muslims are speaking against Allah when they deny the Father and the Son?

Qur'an: Sura 4:171, "... Far is it removed from His [Allah's] transcendent majesty that He should have a son ..."

[Mrs. B]

What ur church is not telling u.....MOB

The Falling Away?
Falling away from what?
Falling away from the Truth......
the falling away is the a/c seated in the church.....deceiving if possible the very elect with False teaching,
Ruled by man and not by The Holy spirit and the True Living Word....the True Teaching of the Word of God....

The church is the Body of Christ on this earth today....but every man does that which is right in his own eyes...
Teaching the doctine of man and not the doctrine of God....or the True Written Words of God....but man's ideas...
and we trust more in commentries and what some one said a hundred years ago instead of Studying the Word and letting
the Holy Spirit lead us and Guide us into all Truth....we all as individuals must give an account for what we believe...

This is Measuring the Temple.......the word and the Spirit are the true teachings of God....we as individuals will give an account to the Living God.....we will each stand alone in that day...
This is Measuring the Temple...each peace must fit in it's place....peter says we are lively stones....fitly shaped to fit into the Temple...

I Peter writes....I Pet. 2:5...Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a Spiritual House, An Holy Priesthood, to offer up Spiritual Sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the Chief Corner Stone of the Temple......we are Measured and jointly fitted into the body or temple of God....as individuals.......each one of us will give an account for our life.....and what we believe....

7.....Unto you therefore which believe he is precious:
But unto them which BE Disobedient, the Stone (Jesus) which the builders disallowed, the same is made the Head of the Corner,

(Jesus is the Chief Corner Stone and we must aline up with Him and His Teaching...this is the Measuring of the Templel)

8...And a Stone of stumbing, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the Word, being disobedient:
Whereunto also they were appointed...

9....BUT Ye are a Chosen Generation, A Royal Priesthood, An Holy Nation, a Preculiar people; that Ye should shew forth the Praises of Him Who hath Called you out of darkness unto His Marvellous light:

10...Which in time past were not a people(the gentiles) But are now the People of God which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy...

11...Dearly Beloved, I beseech you as stangers and Pilgrims abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12...Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that whereas they speak against you as evil doers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of Visitation....

4:17....For the time is Come....that Judgment must begin at the House of God: and if it first begin at us...What shall the end be of them that obey not the Gospel of God? 18...And if the righteous scarely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Rev. 11:1....And there was given me a REED like a rod; and the angel stood, Saying, Rise, and measure the Temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein......
The Angel is Measuring the church.....

2 Peter 2:13....And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time....SPOTS THEY ARE and Blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they FEAST with YOU;
14...Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls; and a heart they excerccised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15...Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Baalaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighttpismess'
17...These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest: to whom the midst of darknkess is reserved for ever...
They follow the antichrist spirit....fallen away from truth...
22...But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire...read all of Peter

Those that Walk righteously before God, they are the True Temple of God......The Antichrist spirit is those who follow false teaching and doctrone of devils....
If it were possible even the very elect will be deceived......Satan will be the Antichrist in the flesh........deceving those that have not given their Whole Heart to Jesus....but are deceived by Words of untruth....

Enekiel also measures the Temple.......Jesus is the Chief Corner Stone.....every building has a corner stone...and the building must line up with the corner stone....we must lien up with Jesus...and His Teachings....being lead by His Holy Spirit which is in you.....


Mrs. B

[Jericho]

Hey 1whowaits, saw this today and thought you might like it:http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/videos/tv-program/

[1whowaits]

Jericho, thanks, i will have to look that over.

Exit, there appear to be more than 10 kings at the time of the end. The 10 kings are of the beasts kingdom but they do not appear to be rulers of individual nations- 'the 10 horns you saw are 10 kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for 1 hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.' Rev 17.

The kingdom of the beast rules the world, the 10 kings apparently are in charge of the beast's kingdom (Dan 7) and give their authority to the AC, who then has authority over the whole world. But these 10 kings do not have a kingdom prior to joining with the AC, they are not rulers of individual nations, they are rulers of the worldwide kingdom of the beast. The theory is that the world is divided up into 10 sections of nation groups and each king is over 1 section of multiple nations with the AC over the whole organization, some theorize a similarity to a super UN with teeth, which already divides the world up into 10 sections.

The 10 kings are loyal to the AC to the end according to Rev 17, they give their power to the beast and will make war against the Lamb. This is in contrast to the kings of individual nations that appear to resist at the end, Satan and the AC must deceive to get them to gather to armageddon. And individual nations resist the AC and are conquered according to Dan 11, an act not associated with the 10 kings who give their authority willingly to the AC.

There are 10 kings over the kingdom of the AC, but there are many kings over all the individual nations, and all the kings of the nations gather to armageddon, while only a limited number gather at Gog-Magog.

Gog is described as advancing like a cloud against the land, but this does not indicate that Israel is completely taken over or that Jerusalem is invaded as is clearly stated of armageddon.

Gog is buried in a mass grave to the east toward the dead sea suggesting that this may be as far as the army advances and where it falls. Joel 2 also appears to describe Gog Magog, the attack of the northen army, and indicates that the forward columns are pushed back to the eastern sea (Dead sea) and the rear columns are pushed back to the western sea (Med sea). This would suggest that the troops advance from the Med sea to the Dead sea and approach Jerusalem from the east and are stopped before reaching Jerusalem. The forward troops, where Gog would likely be, would be buried where they were pushed back to, which is east near the dead sea, a location that both Ezek 39 and Joel 2 appear to refer to.

This is in contrast to armageddon where the armies are in Jerusalem and are killed where they stand (Zech 14), they are not pushed back, and there is no indication that the armies of armageddon are buried, they 'rot where they stand' (Zech 14), and are turned to dust (Isa 29).

And as far as Dan 11, it is a simple logical arguement. The AC will say unheard of things (blaspheme) against the God of Gods, which would be the God of Abraham. The muslims revere the God of Abraham, they consider the God of Abraham and Allah to be the same God, and they consider themselves the true seed of Abraham. No muslim would blaspheme the God of Abraham, as they do revere Him, so the logical conclusion would be that the AC is not muslim. We consider the muslims to be in error, but from their perspective, they cannot blaspheme the God of Abraham, so the AC cannot do this and be a muslim.

And of course there are several other statements in Dan 11 that no muslim would do. Can a muslim elevate himself above Allah? Not equal with, above Allah. Can a muslim show no regard for Allah? Can a muslim deliberately blaspheme and speak against in a derogatory fashion, the God of Abraham, when they consider Allah to be the same god?

[1whowaits]

Good4U1, i was thinking about re-evaluating my position, but the statements made in Dan 11 would appear to contradict the view that the AC is a muslim, so if you wouldn't mind explaining those contradictions, i would appreciate it.

[1whowaits]

Mitchell, prophecy is only Middle Eastern and Israel centric if you choose to limit your understanding to that level. When scripture states 'all nations' (Zech 14, Joel 3) or the 'whole world' (Rev 13, 16) or 'every tribe, people, language and nation' (Rev 13), the meaning is clear. When John said that God so loved the world... was he referring to the ME alone? When Jesus told the disciples to go into all nations, was He referring only to the ME? When Jesus said that the gospel of the kingdom would be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations and then the end would come, was He referring only to the ME?

As far as the extent of the authority of the AC, where does the AC get his authority from? What is the extent of Satan's authority? Satan is known as the god of this world, how much authority does that entail? At the temptation of Jesus Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and stated 'All this I will give to you...', and Jesus did not deny that Satan had the authority to do so. When Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet it is stated 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord...', whose kingdom was the world before that event?

Scripture indicates that indeed Satan has authority over this world, he is the 'god' of this world, but does having authority mean that all will accept that authority? Do all men currently accept the authority of God? Or do they resist that authority even though it does exist? The AC wields the authority of Satan, and that is real world wide authority, but having authority does not entail unquestioned obedience to that authority. So the nations can rebel against the authority of the AC/Satan, which they appear to do at the end, according to Dan 11. That is likely why Satan and the AC must send out demons to deceive the kings of the world to gather at armageddon, exercising their authority is not enough.

But is it clear that the AC has authority over the whole world, the authority of Satan, which is authority over all the kingdoms of the world, which the scripture appears to indicate Satan can give to another if he wishes, as he attempted to do with Jesus.

The many mansions that Jesus was referring to in John 14 would appear to be the New Jerusalem, a literal structure that christians will live in for eternity described in Rev 21, the temple construct you describe of individual christians being built into a temple (that they live in?)is not mentioned in scripture. Scripture describes us as individual temples, not a complex of temple that you appear to describe.

The temple of Rev 11 has an outer court and by implication and inner court and worshippers, so this temple is clearly not made up of christians but a literal, physical structure, indicating that the temple will be rebuilt, you might want to check out Randall Price's book on the coming temple.

The AC setting himself up as god in 'God's temple' would suggest that the temple the AC sets himself up in is not the body of a christian, it is a literal, physical temple.

Dan 11 states that the AC says unheard of things, ie blasphemes, the God of gods, which would be the God of Abraham. As the muslims consider the God of Abraham and Allah to be the same god, can a muslim blaspheme the God of Abraham, whom they consider to be their god Allah? Can a muslim set himself over and above Allah, as Dan 11 describes of the AC?

[Mitchell]

Mitchell, prophecy is only Middle Eastern and Israel centric if you choose to limit your understanding to that level.

Hi 1whowaits, it is not my choosing. The full counsel of Scripture does that for us.

When scripture states 'all nations' (Zech 14, Joel 3) or the 'whole world' (Rev 13, 16) or 'every tribe, people, language and nation' (Rev 13), the meaning is clear. When John said that God so loved the world... was he referring to the ME alone? When Jesus told the disciples to go into all nations, was He referring only to the ME? When Jesus said that the gospel of the kingdom would be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations and then the end would come, was He referring only to the ME?

No, not at all. There are many examples that we can point to that obviously refer to the whole literal earth, and the Greek word “kosmos” in John 3:16 would be one of those examples that refers to the earth as a whole and not just simply the region. Comparing Scripture with Scripture hermeneutically and examining the text exegetically leads us to an understanding that the Gospel is to be preached over the whole literal world (Matt 24:14, “this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikoumenē - the inhabited earth] for a witness unto all nations [pas ethnos - every ethnic group/tribe"; Matt 26:13, "Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world [kosmos - the world, all of humanity]; John 3:16, "For God so loved the world [kosmos - the world, all of humanity] ... that whosoever [pas - everyone] believeth in him ...). There is no geographical limitation in the original text when it comes to preaching the Gospel, but there is a geographical limitation in the text when it describes the scope of Antichrist's power.

As far as the extent of the authority of the AC, where does the AC get his authority from? What is the extent of Satan's authority? Satan is known as the god of this world, how much authority does that entail? At the temptation of Jesus Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and stated 'All this I will give to you...', and Jesus did not deny that Satan had the authority to do so. When Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet it is stated 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord...', whose kingdom was the world before that event?

Is every last government and person in government therefore ruled by the dictates of Satan? Is Satan the one who appoints rulers? Of course not. God is sovereign over the earth, and God is more than capable to raise up nations in the Last Days who oppose Antichrist.

Daniel 2:21, 4:17b, “He [God] changes times and seasons; he [God] sets up kings and deposes them. He [God] gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning … the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.”

To reiterate what was stated above, not only are there no verses that describe the rule of Antichrist in a literally global sense in the original text, there are many verses that prohibit this understanding. Antichrist cannot have dominion over the whole literal planet if he needs to wage wars against other nations. Antichrist cannot have dominion over the whole literal planet if even one nation is able to “escape his hand.” He cannot have dominion over the whole planet when other nations are waging war against him right up until the end (Dan 11:39-45).

If the Assyrian in Micah 5 is Antichrist, who are the “seven shepherds, and eight principal men” that come to Israel’s defense in the Last Days? Think about this very carefully: Scripture shows us at least one nation that will not be subjected to the rule of Antichrist. We read that “these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon” (Dan 11:41). If Jordan — who is situated smack-dab within the epicenter of it all and has a relatively tiny military in comparison to the United States — is able to “escape his hand”, does it not stand to reason that many more will also be able to do so as well? Does it not stand to reason that the most powerful military power on the opposite side of the world will easily be able to" escape his hand" as well?

Scripture indicates that indeed Satan has authority over this world, he is the 'god' of this world, but does having authority mean that all will accept that authority? Do all men currently accept the authority of God? Or do they resist that authority even though it does exist?

You're helping me to make my point. :)

So the nations can rebel against the authority of the AC/Satan, which they appear to do at the end, according to Dan 11. That is likely why Satan and the AC must send out demons to deceive the kings of the world to gather at armageddon, exercising their authority is not enough.

By the time we get to the end of Daniel 11 where we read about resistor nations, it's already too late for Antichrist. At the time of Christ’s return, Antichrist still has not been able to control the whole world. For example, in Daniel 11:44-45 we read that while other nations are still waging war against Antichrist it is during this time that “he shall come to his end”. Up to this point he has become increasingly powerful militarily, but then Christ returns in glorious splendor to deliver Israel and His people. Because of Antichrist’s arrogance and his false Islamic prophecies (Islam teaches that our Messiah is their “Antichrist” that they must fight against, and that our Antichrist is their Messiah whom they must follow), he then decides to fight against our returning Messiah, and is subsequently destroyed by Him (Daniel 8:25b, “… he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.”)

The many mansions that Jesus was referring to in John 14 would appear to be the New Jerusalem, a literal structure that christians will live in for eternity described in Rev 21, the temple construct you describe of individual christians being built into a temple (that they live in?)is not mentioned in scripture. Scripture describes us as individual temples, not a complex of temple that you appear to describe.

Revelation 3:12, "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And [I will write on him] My new name."

Revelation 21:9-10, "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, 'Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife.' And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light [was] like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal."

We are described as being built together into as a Temple. We are described as a structure. The Church is the Bride of Christ. The New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ. The Church is therefore the New Jerusalem. Jesus does not marry a literal structure.

The temple of Rev 11 has an outer court and by implication and inner court and worshippers, so this temple is clearly not made up of christians but a literal, physical structure, indicating that the temple will be rebuilt

I'm not sure if you saw my previous answer to this, but the outer court (also called the Court of the Gentiles) is not measured. The Court of the Gentiles was outside of the main part of the Temple proper.

you might want to check out Randall Price's book on the coming temple.

There are many good commentaries and authors, but the final authority for interpretation is Scripture alone. :)

The AC setting himself up as god in 'God's temple' would suggest that the temple the AC sets himself up in is not the body of a christian, it is a literal, physical temple.

I never said it was the body of a Christian, but rather we collectively as the temple. What does Islam do today? Does the Ummah not stand up against the Ekklesia of God? It has become apparent to me that although the enemy will try to destroy what God has created, he cannot. All he can do is create his own corrupted version of the elect (Isaiah 14:12-15) to wage war against God’s elect in an effort to replace God’s elect:

* Yahweh has the Ekklesia.
* Allah has the Ummah.

* Yahweh’s Ekklesia is “as a bride adorned for her husband” and filled with “the glory of God”.
* Allah’s Ummah is a harlot “decked with gold and precious stones and pearls” filled with abominations.

* Yahweh has given the Ekklesia His Word, the Bible.
* Allah has given the Ummah its corruption, the Qur’an.

* Yahweh’s Ekklesia is the multitude of the Lamb, whom they follow.
* Allah’s Ummah is the multitude of a man (the “prophet Muhammed”), whom they follow.

* Yahweh’s Ekklesia comes out of Great Tribulation.
* Allah’s Ummah is responsible for it.

* Yahweh’s Ekklesia receives the seal of God upon their foreheads and are redeemed.
* Allah’s Ummah receives the Mark of the Beast upon their foreheads and are condemned.

* Yahweh’s Ekklesia will be lead to springs of living waters.
* Allah’s Ummah will drink of the wine of the wrath of God.

The Islamic Antichrist will soon make his "stand".

Can a muslim set himself over and above Allah, as Dan 11 describes of the AC?

Look more closely at the text of Daniel 11:38, "in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things." He exalts himself above all gods (because he believes that all are false) except for the one whom in his estate [his office or position] he honors. This is a perfect description of Islam today.

Dan 11 states that the AC says unheard of things, ie blasphemes, the God of gods, which would be the God of Abraham. As the muslims consider the God of Abraham and Allah to be the same god, can a muslim blaspheme the God of Abraham, whom they consider to be their god Allah?

I've already explained this a number of times, so I'm not sure how else to help you understand the fact that they believe that Abraham worshipped Allah makes no difference whatsoever. They don't believe that Abraham worshipped YHWH. They believe that Abraham worshipped Allah.

Let me try it this way. The Qur'an says that Allah has no son. The Bible says that this is Antichrist. Think about this -- If showing no regard for YHWH therefore means to show no regard for Allah, then your position is essentially stating that the Qur'an blasphemes Allah. He who has an ear, let him hear.

In light of what I've already explained, let's consider the logical implications of what your position suggests. When Satan is already setting up the Muslim world to accept the Antichrist with arms wide open, and judging from what we read in the prophetic texts and what we are now seeing take place on a daily basis, does it not stand to reason that the empire of the Beast is already here? We see it on the news every day, read it in the papers, hear about it on the radio, etc. If it is implausible that Islam is the system of Antichrist, then you'll need to believe that:

* Yet a different nearly two billion (or more) people will also be specifically Antichrist of an as yet unknown non-Middle Eastern religion.

* Yet a different nearly two billion people will also follow a different, as yet unknown, non-Middle Eastern false prophet.

* Yet a different religion will also “wear out the saints” by murdering Jews and Christians (Dan 7:25) – and by beheading.

* Yet a different religion will also change the times – by creating its own calendar. (Daniel 7:25)

* Yet a different religion will also attempt to change laws, ignoring the fact that Islamists are right now attempting to impose Sharia law anywhere and everywhere that Muslims live, in the place of legitimate laws of sovereign nations, throughout the world. (Daniel 7:25)

* Yet a different religion will also build yet another abomination on the Temple Mount that is specifically Antichrist, which contain inscriptions inside and out that read “Far be it from God’s glory that he should have a Son”.

* Yet a different religion will establish in a few years what took Islam almost 1400 years to establish.

Is it a plausible proposition to believe that a quarter of the earth's population -- Muslims who are enslaved in the Antichrist religion of Islam -- will all convert to a different as yet unknown non-Middle Eastern Antichrist religion, operated by some as yet unknown charismatic and well-loved "behead-all-Christians" non-Middle Eastern Antichrist leader, and this in a period that is, for all intents and purposes, virtually overnight?

[Abiding in His Word]

Are we still discussing the MOB?

[Mitchell]

Are we still discussing the MOB?

With respect to it being directly related to Islam, yes. The discussion is whether or not Antichrist is Islamic. If this can be ascertained, then it solidifies the premiss upon which the Mark of the Beast article is written.

[Abiding in His Word]

With respect to it being directly related to Islam, yes. The discussion is whether or not Antichrist is Islamic. If this can be ascertained, then it solidifies the premiss upon which the Mark of the Beast article is written.

OK, thank you Mitchell. Carry on.....

[good4u1]

Abiding, aren't you getting a great education...just reading this thread? I'm so glad Mitchell decided to join our little company of biblical prophecy geeks.

[1whowaits]

Mitchell, to your last point, yes, the AC and Satan will establish their own religion in which they are worshipped above any god, including Allah. Men will worship Satan, a fallen angel, the AC, and demons, as Rev indicates. Men wil be forced to worship an image of a man, which is forbidden in Islam, no man or image of a man can be worshipped.

During the latter half of the 70th week Satan and his angels are confined to earth, there will be direct involvement of spiritual forces physically, using force to conquer nations on behalf of the AC, which would indicate something more than Islam, Islam would be the small view. What Rev describes is much greater, much more destructive and evil than any Islamic caliphate.

And scripture does state repeatedly that the AC has authority over the whole world, resistance by nations does not indicate absence of authority. If we would take your view that resistance to authority indicates absence of authority, God would not have authority, as most nations reject Him, which is not the case. Authority can be imposed by force, which the AC and Satan use to conquer fortresses, the fact that they use force does not indicate lack of authority. Your view that the AC does not have authority over every tribe, people, language and nation is not supported by scripture, the scripture clearly indicates otherwise, repeatedly.

And Dan 11 makes statements regarding the AC that would confirm that he is not a muslim. The AC sets himself above every god, which would include Allah. Any man setting himself over Allah is contrary to Islam, that man is a heretic, and would be rejected (and killed) by the muslims. Please provide the text or statement of Islam that a man setting himself over Allah is permitted. So far you have been unable to answer this.

Dan 11 indicates the AC blasphemes the God of gods, the God of Abraham, where is this permitted in Islam? Not from your perspective, from the muslim perspective, if the AC is a muslim then he must be allowed to say unheard of things against the God of Abraham, Islam must allow muslims to blaspheme the God of Abraham, where is this allowed?

The AC shows no regard for the god of his fathers, which would be Allah if the AC were a muslim, how is this possible if the AC is a muslim?

The AC attacks fortresses with the power of a foreign god, how is Allah foreign to the AC if he is a muslim? Or if the god of the AC is not Allah, but some other god who is foreign to the AC, how can the AC use a god other than Allah and still be a muslim?

The AC honors a god unknown to his fathers, does the AC come from a non-muslim family? Or does the mulsim family of the AC not know of Allah? How could the god of the AC be unknown to the fathers or predecessors of the AC when Allah has been known for over 1,000 years?

The AC attacks muslim nations in battle, how is this possible if the AC is the muslim Mahdi? Do the muslims reject the authority of their Mahdi? Is it part of the prophecy of Islam that the Mahdi will attack the muslim nations that consider him their saviour? Do muslims not accept the authority of the Mahdi?

The AC sets himself up in a Hebrew temple proclaiming himself to be god over every other god and all that is called god (which would include Allah) according the 2 Thess 2. Why would a muslim set himself up as god in such a non-muslim place? Would not Mecca or Medina seem more appropriate to set oneself over Allah? And do muslims routinely proclaim themselves as god over all gods, as god over Allah? Is that part of the Mahdi's role? is the Mahdi a god over Allah?

Why does the AC force other muslims to worship a image of himself, clearly forbidden in Islam?

And the AC proclaims himself as god over all gods, honors Satan, the god of forces who gives him authority, promotes the worship of demons apparently (they did not stop worshipping demons... Rev 9), and forces men to worship his image.

The religion of the AC would then be defined as polytheistic, worshipping multiple gods, and idolistic, worshipping idols, in contrast to Islam which is mono-theistic and condemns the worship of idols and images, clearly not the same religion.

The AC as a muslim? Scripture would appear to indicate otherwise. The AC as a man possessed by Satan promoting the worship of himself, Satan and demons? That is what scripture describes, and that is not Islam.

[Exit40]

Hi 1WW...

Why does the AC force other muslims to worship a image of himself, clearly forbidden in Islam?

He doesn't. They willingly worship their ' perfect man of allah ' who is part man and part allah, their god's expression of himself in the flesh so to speak, somewhat resembling our Christ. He is considered to be a divine being in islam and they look forward with great anticipation his arrival, for the specific purpose of worshiping and following him. It is the false prophet that forces worship on the rest of us, by the MOB or his number.

God Bless You

David

[good4u1]

Hi 1WW...

Why does the AC force other muslims to worship a image of himself, clearly forbidden in Islam?

He doesn't. They willingly worship their ' perfect man of allah ' who is part man and part allah, their god's expression of himself in the flesh so to speak, somewhat resembling our Christ. He is considered to be a divine being in islam and they look forward with great anticipation his arrival, for the specific purpose of worshiping and following him. It is the false prophet that forces worship on the rest of us, by the MOB or his number.

God Bless You

David

Why is David correct and how God verifies this in His Word, here it is: "10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 NIV

[Mitchell]

Hi 1whowaits, most of what you said has already been well addressed and explained. We don't need to play a broken record, but I'll briefly address a few of your other statements.

During the latter half of the 70th week

There are three views regarding the 70th week: A. Already fulfilled, B. Partially fulfilled, and C. Not yet fulfilled.

The view that it has not yet been fulfilled is not only the newest but also the weakest, in my opinion. This traditional dispensational view is a recent invention and was never taught prior to the 19th century.

Although the first view — that it has already been fulfilled — is the most prevalent view throughout church history, I lean towards the second view that it is partially fulfilled, but am open to the first view as well to some degree. I believe that Christ already fulfilled at least the first half of Daniel’s 70th week. The Messiah is mentioned more times in Daniel 9:25-26 than anyone else and it seems to be Daniel’s primary focus:

Dan 9:27a, “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease…”

Now compare Dan 9:27a with the following:

Gal 3:17, “And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.”

Heb 8:6-8, “… he [Christ] is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.”

Heb 10:1-10, “For the law … can never with these same sacrifices … make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered?… For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come — In the volume of the book it is written of Me — To do Your will, O God.’” … then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].”

Although the 70 weeks of Daniel can be consecutive from beginning to end, there is the definite possibility in my mind that there is a pause in the middle of the 70th week. We even find an example of a pause in time essentially from a comma. In Luke 4:16-21 when Jesus went into the synagogue and read the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-3 to proclaim its fulfillment, He stopped mid-way in the prophecy. This is what He fulfilled:

Isaiah 61:1-3, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD [<-- Fulfilled | --> Not yet fulfilled], and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.”

Interestingly, Jesus felt the need to mention something a few verses later in Luke 4:25, “But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land.” Could this have been a clue to something? Only God knows. But with respect to the 70th week of Daniel, however, if only the first half was fulfilled then the other half is yet to come — the 1260 days / 42 months / time, times and the dividing of time (3.5 prophetic years of Antichrist). Please show me anywhere in Scripture that speaks of a “7 year tribulation”. It does not exist.

Satan and his angels are confined to earth, there will be direct involvement of spiritual forces physically, using force to conquer nations on behalf of the AC, which would indicate something more than Islam, Islam would be the small view. What Rev describes is much greater, much more destructive and evil than any Islamic caliphate.

What Revelation describes is Islam. There is a good reason why many former Muslims who convert to Christianity and read Revelation for the first time recognize Mohammed and Islam immediately. Here are a few of those reasons (warning, the two videos below may change your mind):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fif-mt4G6ZQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIXdFjuAJ-w

Men wil be forced to worship an image of a man, which is forbidden in Islam, no man or image of a man can be worshipped... Why does the AC force other muslims to worship a image of himself, clearly forbidden in Islam?

It seems to me that you believe that an "image" is some form of statue or object. Is this what Scripture is saying? And how do you define "worship"? The Bible says that some people worship money, but do people actually bow down and pray to their dollar? Do they sing praises to their quarters? Is this what Obama meant when he said 'change you can believe in'? Of course not. So what does it mean to worship? And what is "his image"? (Note, the Greek text can also be translated as "its image").

Think about the following very carefully. I believe that the image of the Beast refers to the Ummah (Islamic community) where the ‘second Beast’ will instruct everyone under its control to submit to and conform to Islam as it is portrayed in the Qur’an. Consider the Papacy and Catholicism, for instance. The Papacy is to Catholicism what the Caliphate is to Islam. Would not an image unto the Papacy therefore not mean being conformed to the likeness of Catholicism? Likewise, making an image unto the Caliphate therefore means being conformed to the likeness of Islam. Or consider the Church (Ekklesia). Just as the Ekklesia of God is conformed to the image (eikōn) of Christ (Romans 8:29, Christianity), the Ummah of Allah is conformed to the image (eikōn) of Mohammedism (Qur’an Sura 4:171, Islam).

And scripture does state repeatedly that the AC has authority over the whole world

Like Nebuchadnezzar?

Your view that the AC does not have authority over every tribe, people, language and nation is not supported by scripture, the scripture clearly indicates otherwise, repeatedly.

Are you saying that Nebuchadnezzar literally controlled every tribe, people, language and nation in the whole world?

resistance by nations does not indicate absence of authority

That's right. Antichrist has authority, but it is limited geographically in terms of what nations he has full control over. Although I believe that the “seat of the Beast” (cf Rev 13:2, 16:10) will be primarily regional, Antichrist’s influence over the people who follow him will definitely be felt globally and involves one common denominator that we see today in all nations that surround Israel: the religion of Islam. We are even seeing its influence both inside (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2wW) and outside (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2QY) of politics. Consider, for instance, that just last year an American-born Al Qaeda leader publicly called upon Muslims in America to start buying guns and begin killing non-Muslim Americans. I’ve believed for some time now that when this does come it will, with the right “triggering event”, not be isolated. It will be wide-scale. As we all know, there are millions upon millions of Muslims living in Western nations today. If an event were to occur in the world that would be eschatologically pivotal for Muslims this would be sure to awaken any radical elements within the Muslim population, regardless of where they live, and even radicalize some of those who were previously considered “moderate”. The arrival of al Mahdi, for example, could become the “triggering event” that has the potential to precipitate a sudden surge in Islamic terrorism all over the globe. If we are complacent into believing that any such scenario could never happen or is highly unlikely, we don’t need to look far before we come face to face with the sobering reality that Islamic terrorist cells are, today, already forming within our own borders.

In February 2007 Dave Gaubatz, a former U.S. Federal Agent and State Department Arabic linguist, wrote in “American Thinker” that “There is every reason to suspect that we will endure suicide missions by Islamist sleeper cells. They are already in place. They are waiting for the right time. I know this from experience.” (http://tinyurl.com/2q2sq2). His warning was brought to light again in January 2009 when Homeland Security released a detailed report revealing the growing threat of one such terrorist group, stating:

An official government report concludes the Iranian-backed Islamic terror group [Hezbollah] has been forming sleeper cells throughout the United States that could become operational.

The report estimates Hezbollah could become a much more potent national security threat by 2014. The group was responsible for the 1983 Beirut Marine Barracks bombing, which killed 241 U.S. Marines and 58 French servicemen.

‘The Lebanese Shiite group Hezbollah does not have a known history of
 fomenting attacks inside the U.S., but that could change if there is some
 kind of ‘triggering’ event, the homeland assessment cautions,” the report
 said.

The report, obtained by the Middle East Newsline and marked “for official use only,” did not define a “triggering
 event.” Most of the threats cited in the report had been raised by the
 Homeland Security Department.
 (http://tinyurl.com/d2zf5f).

To contextualize the potential magnitude of what this could entail, consider the number of Muslims living in Western nations today. Although I believe that the vast majority of Muslims want to live in peace we cannot allow ourselves to become comatose to the reality that there are those who do not want to live in peace with the “infidel.” There are tens of millions of Muslims living in western countries, with an estimated 5-7 million Muslims living in the United States alone. Can we begin to imagine the havoc to be wrought if even 5% or 10% of them were to engage in terrorist activities to secure themselves a place in paradise? This could be over a quarter of a million radicalized followers of the ‘prophet Mohammad’ who want us dead for the cause of Dar al Islam. The Fort Hood killer, a Muslim US Army Major, waged his own jihad and took 13 lives. This was just one man with a gun. Imagine what half a million all throughout the country wielding guns and knives could do with similar intent.

Although the Antichrist will want to rule the earth and force his religion, his ideology, his image of how this world should think and act upon every government and every man, woman and child on the planet, he will not be able to do so. When Christ returns Scripture lists the nations that He fights against by name, and every nation that is identified in Scripture is today an Islamic nation.

If we would take your view that resistance to authority indicates absence of authority, God would not have authority, as most nations reject Him

It's a false argument. God is God. The Antichrist is not. There can be no comparison.

The AC attacks muslim nations in battle, how is this possible if the AC is the muslim Mahdi?

You may not have seen my answer to this above. Daniel says, "the kingdom shall be divided" (Dan 2:41). The kingdom of Islam is divided into Sunni and Shia. It is divided into extreme and "more extreme". We often hear of Muslims killing other Muslims, of Islamic nations warring against another Islamic nations. We see the Muslim Brotherhood beginning to subjugate those who do not fall in line with their hard-line pro-Sharia agenda. We see al-Qaeda affiliated "rebels" warring against Syria's Assad. Perhaps Turkey will soon join the fray. It's a mess in the Middle East and they are longing for the implementation of the Caliphate. Although 10 nations will give their authority over to Antichrist, there are some who will not, however. Keep your eyes peeled for Iran and its allies to launch an attack against the "apostate" Saudi kingdom, perhaps Dubai also.

Interestingly enough, the following news was issued the same day I gave the reply above: http://tinyurl.com/6vf3jm6

Having said that, here is something for you to consider. It is an excerpt from an article that was published in The Telegraph in 2006 called "'Divine mission' driving Iran's new leader" (http://tinyurl.com/cmgprn):

But listen carefully to the utterances of Mr Ahmadinejad - recently described by President George W Bush as an "odd man" - and there is another dimension, a religious messianism that, some suspect, is giving the Iranian leader a dangerous sense of divine mission.

In November, the country was startled by a video showing Mr Ahmadinejad telling a cleric that he had felt the hand of God entrancing world leaders as he delivered a speech to the UN General Assembly last September.

When an aircraft crashed in Teheran last month, killing 108 people, Mr Ahmadinejad promised an investigation. But he also thanked the dead, saying: "What is important is that they have shown the way to martyrdom which we must follow."

The most remarkable aspect of Mr Ahmadinejad's piety is his devotion to the Hidden Imam, the Messiah-like figure of Shia Islam, and the president's belief that his government must prepare the country for his return.

One of the first acts of Mr Ahmadinejad's government was to donate about £10 million to the Jamkaran mosque, a popular pilgrimage site where the pious come to drop messages to the Hidden Imam into a holy well.

All streams of Islam believe in a divine saviour, known as the Mahdi, who will appear at the End of Days. A common rumour - denied by the government but widely believed - is that Mr Ahmadinejad and his cabinet have signed a "contract" pledging themselves to work for the return of the Mahdi and sent it to Jamkaran.

Iran's dominant "Twelver" sect believes this will be Mohammed ibn Hasan, regarded as the 12th Imam, or righteous descendant of the Prophet Mohammad.

He is said to have gone into "occlusion" in the ninth century, at the age of five. His return will be preceded by cosmic chaos, war and bloodshed. After a cataclysmic confrontation with evil and darkness, the Mahdi will lead the world to an era of universal peace.

This is similar to the Christian vision of the Apocalypse. Indeed, the Hidden Imam is expected to return in the company of [the prophet] Jesus.

Now here is a quote from the Muslim book, “Al Mahdi and the End of Time” (1997) (http://store.islamicplace.com/bok634.html), Muhammad Ibn Izzat and Muhammad Arif, two well-known Muslim Egyptian authors, who identify their Mahdi from the Book of Revelation. Quoting Hadith transmitter Ka’ab al-Ahbar they write:

“I find the Mahdi recorded in the books of the Prophets… For instance, the Book of Revelation says: ‘And I saw and behold a white horse. He that sat on him…went forth conquering and to conquer.’ ... It is clear that this man is the Mahdi who will ride the white horse and judge by the Qur’an (with justice) and with whom will be men with marks of prostration (zabiba) on their foreheads…. The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and Christians; if they accept it they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed.”

Daniel 12:4a, "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end ...". We are in the time of the end, and prophecy is now beginning to be unsealed. The writing is on the wall, and it's high time we all open our eyes and begin reading what was, and what is, written.

Edit: By the way, listen to what Dr. John MacArthur says in the following sermon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1G6qpZqyQg. If you would like the full sermon, visit here: http://wp.me/p1qlPa-lm. He who has an ear, let him hear ...

[1whowaits]

Exit, it does appear that worship of the beast and his image involves some force. Rev 13 states- 'He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast.' Making the people of the earth, which would include muslims, worship the AC implies force of some sort. This is nothing like the picture you present of the willing muslim masses and their Mahdi.

People also state 'who is like the beast? who can make war with him?', in the context of worshipping him, which would imply that the beast has already made war and conquered at that point, and the people fear him. The implication of the statement of 'who can make war with the beast' is that 'no one' can make war with the beast, no one can defeat the beast, no one can resist conquest by the AC and the god of forces (Satan).

The FP also orders men to set up the image of the AC, and the image kills those who refuse to worship the image, again force is implied if not directly stated in association with the worship of the AC and his image. Why would muslims be forced to worship the muslim Mahdi?

Also the term 'image' means 'prototype' or 'exact represention', the image is somthing that is a reflection of the AC but it is not the AC. There is some debate about what the 'image' is, but it is not the AC, it is a 'representation' of the AC and therefore would fit the definition of an idol. This worship of a representation of the AC, a image of a man, an idol, is forbidden in Islam.

Forcing the people of the earth, including muslims, to worship the AC, and forcing the worship of a representation of the AC, would appear to be inconsistent with Islam.

[1whowaits]

Mitchell, perhaps i should state this a bit more directly, we seem to be getting off on tangents, there is a point that i believe you have had some difficulty in answering, which is that presented in Dan 11, that the AC 'will exalt and magnify himself above every god...nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.', and in 2 Thess 2- 'He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped...proclaiming himself to be God.'

Islam states that Allah is the only god, there is no equal to Allah, and no one is above Allah. Anyone who exalts himself over Allah is not of Islam.

From Dan 11 and 2 Thess 2 the AC exalts himself over all gods, which would include Allah, which is contrary to Islam. How do you reconcile this with your view?

[Mitchell]

Mitchell, perhaps i should state this a bit more directly, we seem to be getting off on tangents, there is a point that i believe you have had some difficulty in answering, which is that presented in Dan 11, that the AC 'will exalt and magnify himself above every god...nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.', and in 2 Thess 2- 'He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped...proclaiming himself to be God.'

Islam states that Allah is the only god, there is no equal to Allah, and no one is above Allah. Anyone who exalts himself over Allah is not of Islam.

From Dan 11 and 2 Thess 2 the AC exalts himself over all gods, which would include Allah, which is contrary to Islam. How do you reconcile this with your view?

Hi 1whowaits, this is not difficult at all. Let me approach it the following way for you instead. Maybe it will be easier to understand and you'll see why it makes perfect sense.

You admitted previously that Antichrist is "influenced or controlled by Satan", in fact that Antichrist is "possessed by Satan". This is by your own admission. Now, did Satan not say that "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God"? Did Satan not say that "I will be like the most High"? The prophet Isaiah reveals to us Satan's own corrupt ambition, to magnify himself above everything that is called god, even above God Himself. This is exactly what Daniel says the Antichrist will do.

If it is Satan's intention to be like the Most High and to exalt his throne above the stars of God, does it not stand to reason that Satan will perform these blasphemies through Antichrist whom he possesses? Let's not forget the fact that the name of Satan in Isaiah 14:12 (Lucifer) is "heylel" which means "light-bearer". The Arabic equivalent of Satan's name is "hilal", which means "crescent moon". Satan -- through the Islamic Antichrist -- would be exalting and magnifying himself above every god through the office of al Mahdi. He would not be exalting himself above "Allah", because it is "Allah" (Satan) that is exalting himself through Antichrist. And calling himself the savior of mankind will be blasphemy against the God of Heaven who declares in Isaiah 43:11 that “I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior.” Indeed, “…I am God, and there is none like Me” (Isaiah 46:9).

[1whowaits]

Mitchell, i would agree that Satan is acting through the AC declaring himself to be god. But the scripture is stating that the AC declares himself to be 'over' all gods, every god, all that is called god, which would include Allah. The AC is setting himself over Allah, not equal to Allah, over and above Allah, that is the direct implication of scripture.

In the Islamic writings the Mahdi is repeatedly called the servant or slave of Allah, not the master of Allah. If an individual would call himself the Mahdi and then declare himself over and above Allah, he would no longer be a muslim, he would have denied the faith. And the muslim people, who have been trained on the Quran all their lives, who know what their book says about Allah and the Mahdi, would recognize that the act of setting oneself over Allah is not an act of the Mahdi, such an act would be heresey.

Islam is an organized religion with strict rules and the chief rule is that there is no god but Allah, there is no equal to Allah, and certainly there is no one over Allah. Break this rule and you are no longer of Islam.

And yet the AC clearly breaks this rule, he sets himself over 'all gods', which would include Allah, this act of the AC is not consistent with Islam, and would be recognized by all muslims as being counter to Islam, and they would reject him as the Mahdi of Islam.

As you have indicated, knowing something of the religion of the AC could aid in determining what the 'mark' would be. As the AC sets himself over all gods at the time of the AOD, and the time of the AOD is the time associated with the giving of the mark, the 'mark' and the AOD would then not be associated with Islam as by the time of the AOD the AC is acting in a way totally counter to Islam.

That is not to say that Islam will not have a significant role to play, i believe it does, Islam will 'clear the decks' and set the stage for the coming of the AC, imo. But by the time of the AOD the AC is acting in a way totally contrary to Islam, as Dan 11 indicates in several places, which would suggest that the religion of the AC and Satan is something other than Islam, it is much worse.

[Mitchell]

Mitchell, i would agree that Satan is acting through the AC declaring himself to be god. But the scripture is stating that the AC declares himself to be 'over' all gods, every god, all that is called god, which would include Allah.

Hi 1whowaits, I realize that a "non-Islamic paradigm" view requires there to be a problem with the text regarding the suggestion that Antichrist is Islamic, but such a problem does not exist. Time and time again, Scripture describes perfectly an Islamic Antichrist, imho. "Allah" is Satan, and "Allah" is acting through the office of Antichrist to exalt himself over all gods, over all that is called god, and as such we must be keen to consider the spiritual realities behind what is happening. When Antichrist does this, "Allah" is doing it. In my view, it is therefore a false argument to suggest that Islam's Mahdi is somehow exalting himself over "Allah" when "Allah" is exalting himself through him. It is Satan's way of duplicating our Christ, our savior, by setting himself via his "representative" both against, and in place of, YHWH and His Deliverer.

In the Islamic writings the Mahdi is repeatedly called the servant or slave of Allah, not the master of Allah... And the muslim people, who have been trained on the Quran all their lives, who know what their book says about Allah and the Mahdi, would recognize that the act of setting oneself over Allah is not an act of the Mahdi, such an act would be heresey.

This is all a part of the deception of Islam. Consider for a moment their behavior and teachings in light of Biblical revelation. On one hand, Islam convinces Muslims that they must not worship idols, yet on the other hand it tells Muslims to kill anyone who says anything negative about the Qur'an. It tells Muslims to kill anyone who says anything negative about their "prophet". It tells Muslims to kill anyone who leaves the Islamic faith. Islam causes them to bow down facing Mecca where the Black Stone (Kaaba) sits, and they do this five times a day. They will offer their lives for each and every one of these, each of which is blatant idolatry in the eyes of YHWH because it is worship of the Qur'an, of their "prophet", of the Black Stone. They are worshipping the image of the Beast. Likewise, Islam teaches that the Mahdi is the savior of humanity, not YHWH. This, yet again, is idolatry in the eyes of YHWH. It is the utterance of blasphemous words, for it calls YHWH and His Messiah a liar, elevating Antichrist (al Mahdi) above the Father, above the Son and above the Holy Spirit.

That is not to say that Islam will not have a significant role to play, i believe it does, Islam will 'clear the decks' and set the stage for the coming of the AC, imo. But by the time of the AOD the AC is acting in a way totally contrary to Islam, as Dan 11 indicates in several places, which would suggest that the religion of the AC and Satan is something other than Islam, it is much worse.

We need to make a concerted effort to focus solely upon what Scripture says and recognize what is happening in light of Scripture. The Beast is here, today. The stage is set, today. Everything is in place, today, for Antichrist. Islam is, today, already "wearing out the saints" by persecuting the Ekklesia of YHWH, by beheading and killing Christians and planning the destruction of Israel (http://tinyurl.com/892n8um, http://wp.me/p1qlPa-1z3). Islam is, today, already seeking to change times by calling for "Mecca Time" instead of "Greenwich Mean Time" (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-5Y), not to mention the fact that it rewrites history for its own advancement. Islam is, today, already seeking to change laws by demanding that Sharia Laws be enforced throughout the world (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-3hV). It's time that we all take the time to seriously reconsider this sobering reality, instead of focusing all of our attention upon some future, as yet unknown well-loved "behead-all-Christians" non-Middle Eastern charismatic Antichrist world leader of a brand new as yet unknown "behead-all-Christians" Anti-Christ world religion that will attempt to institute separate brand new laws and behavior virtually overnight, which took Islam nearly 1400 years to establish. Satan has already set up the Muslim world into accepting Antichrist with arms wide open, and a prowling Beast now walks about seeking whom it may devour. Yet the Western Church remains asleep ...

* Christian Bishop in Egypt: Christians Are Currently Experiencing Their Worst Time in Recent Centuries, Many Now Unable to Buy or Sell (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-29x)
* ‘Bloody’: Christian Persecution is ‘Coursing Through Muslim-Majority Nations from One End of the Globe to the Other’ (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2M2)
* The Christian Era in the Middle East is Over, ‘Will Be Completely Green, the Colour of Islam’ (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-3a0)
* Iran: The Spread of the Gospel Among Iranian Youth and Families Sparks Islamic Authorities to Increase Suppression of Christianity (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-1Ya)
* Islamic Militants Calling Themselves ‘The Unknown Soldiers of The Hidden Imam’ Threaten to Hunt Down and Execute Christians Who Flee Iran (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-1SM)
* Nigeria: Muslim Extremists Killing Christians in Two States in Effort to ‘Cleanse’ Islamic Land, Entire Christian Families Among Those Killed (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-1QY)
* Egypt: Rising Islamic Leader Declares ‘We Will Launch a Campaign of Islamic Conquest Throughout the World’, ‘Exterminate’ Christians Who Get In the Way of Sharia (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-1ED)
* Mali: Christian Leader Beheaded as Islamists Terrorize Country, Create List of All Christians They Intend to Execute by Beheading (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-3c4)
* Sudan: Christianity No Longer an Accepted Religion, Muslims Attack Christians Trying to Rebuild Church (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-23Z)
* Iraq: Islamic Extremists Want to Eliminate Christians From Country, Mass Movement of Christians Continues Unabated (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-1YM)
* Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia Calls for ‘Destruction of All Churches in Region’ (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-34u)
* Not a Single Christian Church Left in Afghanistan, Says State Department (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-1Ve)
* Egypt: Islamists Boast, ‘We Won’t Leave Any Christians in This Country’ (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-1Sa)
* Pakistan: The Existence of Christians Threatened Now More Than Ever Before, Persecution the Worse It Has Ever Been (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-1Xv)
* Islam In Africa: ‘An Invisible Genocide Where Sadistic Killers Slaughter And Execute Thousands Of Christians’ (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-3lL)
* Middle East Christians Are Being Killed by Radical Islamists Because of Their Faith, Threatening Their Very Existence (http://wp.me/p1qlPa-24P)

This is just the tip of the iceberg.