Paul Was Pre_trib?

[mrgravyard49]

http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/tough-q ... -pre-trib/

[Keeping Alert]

Makes good sense to me

[tharkun]

I'd reply, but I can't stop laughing at the idea.....

[Keeping Alert]

[rizen]

Reading 2 Thes 2:1-3 we see that the forgery must have disputed Paul’s teaching on events leading up to the Day of the Lord. This is the only logical explanation for his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.

Notice that right from the beginning Paul separated the coming of the Lord from our being gathered to Him. That’s because they’re two different events.

According to Jack Kelley, the "coming" (parousia) of Jesus should be separate from "our being gathered unto him" (episunagoge) in 2 Thess. 2:1. But according to a Mal Couch article posted in pre-trib.org, this is an incorrect interpretation.

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Couch- ... smand2.pdf

And our being gathered unto Him. Is this synonymous with the first clause? Our gathering unto Him fits with the Rapture and not the Second Coming. This is the opinion of most of the Greek commentators. Both Alford and Robinson see "the coming" and "the gathering together to Him" as the same thing. The grammar probably well supports this by the use of the preposition huper (concerning, regarding), which controls the two nouns "the coming" and "the gathering-together." Thus it would read: "With regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ even our gathering together to Him." "In reference to our being gathered unto Him." (Barnes) Vine strongly concurs and writes, "the article appears before parousia and is not repeated before episunagoge indicating that these are complimentary elements in one event.

So which Pretribulationist is wrong here? Is it Jack Kelley or is it Mal Couch?

[mark s]

Yep, there are different interpretations even within the same overall view. I've seen that in all of the general views.

So while we tend to categorization as Pre-Trib, Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib, so forth, there are actually, from what I've seen, many different variations within each of those.

I think this goes towards why the debates become endless.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Sword of Geddon]

And also why the very idea of interpretation is foolishness. The Bible either says something, or it doesn't. It is only when you inject people's egos or world-views into things that the word becomes more complicated than it truly is.

If I wrote someone a letter that said "Hi hows it going?", a simple greeting, I guarantee you there would be hundreds of people, after the letter was found, arguing over the meaning of "Hi hows it going?".

God is not the author of confusion. The fault lies not in the word of God, but in the entire doctrine of the "rapture".

Do an internet search of "rapture" and "Zoroastrianism". You may be surprised at the origin of the concept. I have read that both Catholics in the early RCC and the various Protestant groups considered the Rapture idea a heresy. I'm not saying the RCC is an authority we should turn to, or even Luther and the other Protestant founders, but I am saying that the very idea of a rapture, in which a god of good takes away his followers to avoid calamity was a concept in another faith(a false one) long before it was talked about as part of ours.

[benny balerio]

And also why the very idea of interpretation is foolishness. The Bible either says something, or it doesn't. It is only when you inject people's egos or world-views into things that the word becomes more complicated than it truly is.

If I wrote someone a letter that said "Hi hows it going?", a simple greeting, I guarantee you there would be hundreds of people, after the letter was found, arguing over the meaning of "Hi hows it going?".

God is not the author of confusion. The fault lies not in the word of God, but in the entire doctrine of the "rapture".

Do an internet search of "rapture" and "Zoroastrianism". You may be surprised at the origin of the concept. I have read that both Catholics in the early RCC and the various Protestant groups considered the Rapture idea a heresy. I'm not saying the RCC is an authority we should turn to, or even Luther and the other Protestant founders, but I am saying that the very idea of a rapture, in which a god of good takes away his followers to avoid calamity was a concept in another faith(a false one) long before it was talked about as part of ours.

You Quote:

but I am saying that the very idea of a rapture, in which a god of good takes away his followers to avoid calamity was a concept in another faith(a false one) long before it was talked about as part of ours.

My Reply:
No,....There is no confusion to those who rightly divide the Word of God.
The Word of God is clear that the Bride of Christ Jesus is caught up to meet the Lord in the air, prior to His coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 1;10

[4givenmuch]

From what little I know, most Christian's were pre- trib until late in Augustines life. His early life he believed the literal interpretation, but near the end of his life, he moved away from it. The scholars that followed studied his work.

[benny balerio]

In medieval times evidence of pretribulational thinking can be found in the recently discovered sermon attributed to Ephraem the Syrian.16 This sermon, which was written sometime between the 4th and 6th Centuries, encourages believers to prepare themselves for meeting the Lord because "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Scholars believe this text was derived from the writings of the original Ephraem who lived from 306 to 373 AD. He was one of the leading theologians of the early Byzantine Church.

[jgilberAZ]

pseudo-ephraim ... another fallacy

http://www.totall.exagorazo.net/Post-Tr ... hraem.html

The mistake made by Jeffrey (and Ice) is the assumption that "taken to the Lord" means a pre-trib rapture, while ignoring nearly everything else in this sermon that clearly indicates Pseudo-Ephraem was not pre-trib!

[benny balerio]

pseudo-ephraim ... another fallacy

http://www.totall.exagorazo.net/Post-Tr ... hraem.html

The mistake made by Jeffrey (and Ice) is the assumption that "taken to the Lord" means a pre-trib rapture, while ignoring nearly everything else in this sermon that clearly indicates Pseudo-Ephraem was not pre-trib!

Your Post(link) quotes:
The Real Ephraem of Syria
The well respected scholar, Dr. Robert H. Gundry, chairman of the Department of Religious studies at Westmont College and author of seminary textbooks and books on eschatology, has recently authored a book entitled, First the Antichrist. On pages 161-188, he gives several quotes from the real Ephraem of Syria which show that Ephraem believed the resurrection and translation of believers would occur after the tribulation.

My reply:
Upon briefly reading this....(in which I intend to spend more time studying).....I noticed that this well respected "Dr. Robert H. Gundry"....has a big problem.
If the real Ephraem of Syria actually stated that..."the resurrection and translation of believers would occur after the tribulation".......then one must ask,.."who is left to repopulate the millennium?"
If all the dead and alive are raptured and receive immortal bodies,...then there would not be one human left on the earth that would repopulate the earth.
After all,....The word of God is clear that all unbelievers will not enter into the millennium and that the Lord will destroy them all.
There is not one scripture in the bible that indicates a rapture after the great tribulation,..that is just a fact.
when one divides the Word of God correctly,..there is evidence of a harmonic flow that comes togeter in unity.
Post trib theory nor a pre wrath theory cannot accomplish a harmonic flow.

But then again,,....it is not the first time that I have seen Gundry misinterpret words,...and that he see's only what he wants to see.

Your Post Quotes:
"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world?"

My Reply:
Upon closely examining the above and the other two posted statedments in the link by ephraim,...It is obvious to me that ephraim was pointing out all the signs that were occurring, and that he believed that the rapture was about to occur any day soon.

[Exit40]

Hi Benny...

If the real Ephraem of Syria actually stated that..."the resurrection and translation of believers would occur after the tribulation".......then one must ask,.."who is left to repopulate the millennium?"
If all the dead and alive are raptured and receive immortal bodies,...then there would not be one human left on the earth that would repopulate the earth.

Zec 14:16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

It is quite evident there are mortal survivors of the end of this age who enter the Millennium. And apparently some are still heathen...

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

There is a difference between entering the Millennium on earth and entering The Millennial Kingdom on earth. Would you agree ?

God Bless You

David

[benny balerio]

Hi Benny...

If the real Ephraem of Syria actually stated that..."the resurrection and translation of believers would occur after the tribulation".......then one must ask,.."who is left to repopulate the millennium?"
If all the dead and alive are raptured and receive immortal bodies,...then there would not be one human left on the earth that would repopulate the earth.

Zec 14:16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

It is quite evident there are mortal survivors of the end of this age who enter the Millennium. And apparently some are still heathen...

Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

There is a difference between entering the Millennium on earth and entering The Millennial Kingdom on earth. Would you agree ?

God Bless You

David

....No disrepect towards you David,..it's just that I already anticipated that someone was going to post the above.

Again,..no unbeliever will enter the millenium.
Yes there will be survivors after Armageddon,..and these will "ALL" go before the Lord Jesus,..in the "Sheep and Goat Judgement"
Only those who were saved by evidence of their faith in Christ Jesus by works,,....these have endured in their faith unto the end,...only the sheep will enter the millennium.

These survivors will repopulate the earth,...and those born into the world of the millennium,...are not forced to accept our Lord Jesus Christ, as their Lord and Savior,....even in the millennium,..the Lord knocks at our hearts door.
And anyone who has not accepted the pardon that the Lord has provided on the Cross,..is considered a heathen.
God Bless you David

[Sword of Geddon]

The rapture doctrine was also considered heresy at one point as well.

There was a time when it wasn't even considered something a Christian would talk about. Why? Because the very idea of a rapture was a popular belief from the ancient Zoroastrian religion that found its way over the centuries to christian circles.

Its been attempted for centuries to try to find a christian justification for the Zoroastrian concept of the rapture. What this does is give believers the false expectation that simply being a Christian means they will never have any hardship in life. The entire philosophy behind "the rapture" is very closely related to the prosperity doctrine and other teachings which have been at the heart of the destruction of the western church.

All you need to do is look at Revelation. There is only one second coming at the battle of armageddon. There is no such thing biblically speaking of a hidden second coming, since Christ's return at megiddo would have been called the third coming to avoid any confusion.

The rapture doctrine needs to die. It causes so much unnecessary confusion when it comes to end times studies. Since God is not the author of confusion, but of wisdom, why would we, as followers of God, cling to an idea that promotes unnecessary confusion?

[benny balerio]

The rapture doctrine was also considered heresy at one point as well.

There was a time when it wasn't even considered something a Christian would talk about. Why? Because the very idea of a rapture was a popular belief from the ancient Zoroastrian religion that found its way over the centuries to christian circles.

Its been attempted for centuries to try to find a christian justification for the Zoroastrian concept of the rapture. What this does is give believers the false expectation that simply being a Christian means they will never have any hardship in life. The entire philosophy behind "the rapture" is very closely related to the prosperity doctrine and other teachings which have been at the heart of the destruction of the western church.

All you need to do is look at Revelation. There is only one second coming at the battle of armageddon. There is no such thing biblically speaking of a hidden second coming, since Christ's return at megiddo would have been called the third coming to avoid any confusion.

The rapture doctrine needs to die. It causes so much unnecessary confusion when it comes to end times studies. Since God is not the author of confusion, but of wisdom, why would we, as followers of God, cling to an idea that promotes unnecessary confusion?

2 Peter 3:
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

To be truthful the concept of the rapture originated with God. God before the foundation of the world planned the history of the world. Jesus in John 14:1-3 alludes to the rapture to His disciples.

The Bible is the Holy Spirit led Word of God written by men who were inspired what to write down.

You quote:
All you need to do is look at Revelation. There is only one second coming at the battle of armageddon.


My Reply:
The second coming that you refer to at armageddon is an event that includes the wrath of God as does Daniels 70th week also includes the wrath of God.

I can say with confidence that this Zoroastrian rapture twist and deception is hogwash in my opinion,..and I have no doubt that you are deceived into intertwining it with christianity.

Again the Lord is clear that He will rescue the Bride before the Wrath of God begins.
The only way for this to come to pass, is by being "Caught Up"......the interpretation of caught up is "HARPAZO" in the greek. It means to snatch up violently.
The rapture is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4;16-17

I think that it is sad that you would go to a cult religion to attempt to water down the truth in Gods Word.
What you should be doing is to use Gods Word in your defence,...not a cult.

[Exit40]

So then Benny, what does the following mean to you...

Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"

God Bless You

David

[benny balerio]

So then Benny, what does the following mean to you...

Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"

God Bless You

David

Dear David,
It is much simpler for me to just post the following link that will answer your question, in which I am in agreement with or other wise, I would not post it.
What is important is that we all seek the truth, and it is not about us,...But the Lord only,...what I mean by this is that only He is worthy to receive the Praise, Honor and glory.
We are guided by the Holy Spirit unto the Truth,......without Him,....we can do nothing of our own.
God Bless.

http://www.raptureready.com/resource/web/web15.html

[Exit40]

Hi Benny. From the link you provided....

In the first Restoration, because of their blindness, and hard, stony hearts, they rejected and killed Jesus. But in the future Restoration they shall REPENT of all this, and have CLEAN HEARTS, and ACCEPT of CHRIST, who will be their King.

As far as I can tell this is the response to the passage I asked about. As this does not offer explanation I think I should be more clear in my request for meaning. What I want to know is, if no unbeliever enters the Millennium, how can there be men such as these ten who at this point appear to have heard of God yet they don't seem to know Him. Vs 22, they seek the Lord, many peoples and strong nations. If they are all believers wouldn't they already know the Lord ? In the context of this chapter it seems this is shortly after Our Lord returns to Jerusalem, in those days that follow. Benny, this is an honest question, no hidden agenda, rapture aside for a moment.

God Bless You

David

[benny balerio]

Hi Benny. From the link you provided....

In the first Restoration, because of their blindness, and hard, stony hearts, they rejected and killed Jesus. But in the future Restoration they shall REPENT of all this, and have CLEAN HEARTS, and ACCEPT of CHRIST, who will be their King.

As far as I can tell this is the response to the passage I asked about. As this does not offer explanation I think I should be more clear in my request for meaning. What I want to know is, if no unbeliever enters the Millennium, how can there be men such as these ten who at this point appear to have heard of God yet they don't seem to know Him. Vs 22, they seek the Lord, many peoples and strong nations. If they are all believers wouldn't they already know the Lord ? In the context of this chapter it seems this is shortly after Our Lord returns to Jerusalem, in those days that follow. Benny, this is an honest question, no hidden agenda, rapture aside for a moment.

God Bless You

David

Well let's think about it for a moment.
I am just going to use my imagination based on what I know about scripture.

The Word of God says:
In the millennium,it will be uncommon for a man to die at the age of 100 years.
Those born in the millennium I am certain will have heard about Jesus, and had been told that He is the Son of God,..that He is a Jew, and sits on the Throne in Jerusalem.
I believe that the Holy spirit will still be influencing mankind in those Days,..and,...these who have heard of Him, but had not yet asked to be forgiven of their sins,..obviously will not know Him,unless they ask in their heart that He come into their heart as their Lord and Savior.
Today,..we are excited to know that soon we will meet Him face to face.
I believe that these ten will want to meet Him face to face also.
I believe that those who will not come to Him as their Lord and Savior will be counted among those who join satan in attacking us/Lord in the closing days of the Millennium.
I do know that the Lord will call the Jewish race once again during the millennium,...His Elect,...maybe this too contributes to the reason why these ten will travel with a Jew to Jerusalem in those days.

[benny balerio]

Hi Benny. From the link you provided....

In the first Restoration, because of their blindness, and hard, stony hearts, they rejected and killed Jesus. But in the future Restoration they shall REPENT of all this, and have CLEAN HEARTS, and ACCEPT of CHRIST, who will be their King.

As far as I can tell this is the response to the passage I asked about. As this does not offer explanation I think I should be more clear in my request for meaning. What I want to know is, if no unbeliever enters the Millennium, how can there be men such as these ten who at this point appear to have heard of God yet they don't seem to know Him. Vs 22, they seek the Lord, many peoples and strong nations. If they are all believers wouldn't they already know the Lord ? In the context of this chapter it seems this is shortly after Our Lord returns to Jerusalem, in those days that follow. Benny, this is an honest question, no hidden agenda, rapture aside for a moment.

God Bless You

David

Well let's think about it for a moment.
I am just going to use my imagination based on what I know about scripture.

The Word of God says:
In the millennium,it will be uncommon for a man to die at the age of 100 years.
Those born in the millennium I am certain will have heard about Jesus, and had been told that He is the Son of God,..that He is a Jew, and sits on the Throne in Jerusalem.
I believe that the Holy spirit will still be influencing mankind in those Days,..and,...these who have heard of Him, but had not yet asked to be forgiven of their sins,..obviously will not know Him,unless they ask in their heart that He come into their heart as their Lord and Savior.
Today,..we are excited to know that soon we will meet Him face to face.
I believe that these ten will want to meet Him face to face also.
I believe that those who will not come to Him as their Lord and Savior will be counted among those who join satan in attacking us/Lord in the closing days of the Millennium.
I do know that the Lord will call the Jewish race once again during the millennium,...His Elect,...maybe this too contributes to the reason why these ten will travel with a Jew to Jerusalem in those days.

Dear David,
I research to get a commentary from someone eles,..the following is not far off unto what I earlier stated:


2. (20-22) The LORD says: the nations will stream into Jerusalem, to seek the LORD.

"Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'Peoples shall yet come, inhabitants of many cities; the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Let us continue to go and pray before the LORD, and seek the LORD of hosts. I myself will go also." Yes, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.' "

a. Peoples shall yet come: In Zechariah's day not many people wanted to come to a downtrodden city like Jerusalem. God promises a redemption so great that one day the peoples shall yet come to the glorified city.

b. Yes, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem: This promise will ultimately be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom of Jesus. Jerusalem will be the headquarters of His kingdom, and the nations will come to seek the LORD in Jerusalem.

3. (23) The LORD says: God will give Israel such favor that the nations will see God is with them.

"Thus says the LORD of hosts: 'In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you." ' "

a. Ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man: This same word grasp is used for grabbing a snake by the tail (Exodus 4:4) or for grabbing a lion by its beard (1 Samuel 17:35). It means to grasp something that you can't afford to let go of.

i. "This prophecy teaches, then, that Israel will be the means of drawing the nations of the earth to the Lord in the time of the Messiah's reign of righteousness upon earth." (Feinberg, cited in Barker)

ii. "We are all clinging to the seamless robe of that one Jew, Jesus of Nazareth, who because of His work on the cross is the only basis on which anyone may approach God and entreat Him for spiritual blessings." (Boice)

b. Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you: When others see that God is with us, it attracts them to the LORD. When people see Christ in you, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27), they want to come to Jesus.

i. "God is never idle while he dwells in his people; for he cleanses away every kind of impurity, every kind of deceit, that where he dwells may ever be a holy place." (Calvin)
http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view. ... hapter=008

[Exit40]

Those born in the millennium I am certain will have heard about Jesus, and had been told that He is the Son of God

But Benny, what I am asking is not of those born in the Millennium, but those who in the quoted passages appear to be living in the days shortly after Our Lord arrives in Jerusalem, as if it seems they survived our age and lived on into the Millennium age. If you think to ask, which I have, what makes me think this is shortly into the Millennium, here is a passage directly describing the times in the context of the chapter, in the days of the surviving remnant of Jews from the previous age, the one we are in now.

Zec 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.

At issue here is, if they were believers before the Millennium they would have been raptured, or if they were not they would have been destroyed so how could they ask of the Jew, or they were unbelievers before the Millennium and survived to hear of the Lord and seek Him. The only other option is they were indeed born in the Millennium, but to whom ?

God Bless You

David

PS. I've been doing a lot of reading and researching and haven't looked at your latest post yet.

[Exit40]

Benny, that's another great commentary you have provided, but my question remains unanswered.

God Bless You

David

[benny balerio]

Those born in the millennium I am certain will have heard about Jesus, and had been told that He is the Son of God

But Benny, what I am asking is not of those born in the Millennium, but those who in the quoted passages appear to be living in the days shortly after Our Lord arrives in Jerusalem, as if it seems they survived our age and lived on into the Millennium age. If you think to ask, which I have, what makes me think this is shortly into the Millennium, here is a passage directly describing the times in the context of the chapter, in the days of the surviving remnant of Jews from the previous age, the one we are in now.

Zec 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.

At issue here is, if they were believers before the Millennium they would have been raptured, or if they were not they would have been destroyed so how could they ask of the Jew, or they were unbelievers before the Millenium and survived to hear of the Lord and seek Him. The only other option is they were indeed born in the Millennium, but to who ?

God Bless You

David

PS. I've been doing a lot of reading and researching and haven't looked at your latest post yet.

Dear David,
There scripturally is not going to be a rapture as the Lord Jesus is descending towards earth to fight the battle of Armageddon.
Do you not think it strange that a rapture at that moment, before The battle begins, to rapture all the dead in christ first,..and then who are alive and remain to be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air and then come back to earth?
This scenario does not leave one saved person in their mortal body....PERIOD!
In that case,...not one person to repopulate the earth.

With the above in mind,.........the "RESURRECTION" of the martyred Tribulation Saints scripturally would not occur until "After" the anti-christ and the false prophet will both be throne into the lake of fire.
Which means that you must ask why were these martyred saints not raptured too while the Lord was in the air prior to armageddon.

Again,..The whole of Daniels 70th week is the Wrath of God/Day of the Lord,..and Armageddon is also the Lord executing the Wrath of God.
You must keep in mind that the Lord will rescue(Rapture) the Bride "BEFORE" the wrath of God begins"(Thess 1;10)
Again,...The rapture of the Bride is to occur in a normal life setting,..such as Marrying , giving in marriage and Drinking, or descibed as two women grinding at the mill,..one taken the other left behind.
This scenario cannot fit rightly during the Bowl Judgements,..in which cannot be described as a normal life setting.
The Bowl judgements are to occur just prior to the sign of the Son of Man.
The Bowl judgements reveal that man will only have blood to drink,....no possible chance for rain to grow and grind wheat.

Revelation 20;4 speaks of a "Resurrection" only.......no "Catching Up"
Deuteronomy 30:4....(Do you remember matthew 24;31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
(THe Lord is referring to the Jewish race,......Not the Bride...remember,...the Bride will not enter Daniels 70th week,..The Lord(Bridegroom) is not returning to take home a battered and bruised Bride

As concerning the millennium:
No unbelieveer can enter the millennium.
But most likely some of the Sheep survivors(Women) will enter the millennium pregnant(matthew 24;19)
What about a child under the age of accountability?
Could a living child even survive such circumstances?
Regardless,..I would think that a child would be able to enter since they do not yet understand the difference between right and wrong(Sin)......These would still need to make a decision sooner or later.

It is important that you come to realize that not one unbeliever can enter the millennium.
revelation 21;8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

revelation 22;
10Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.”

12“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Matthew 25;
The Sheep and the Goats

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

revelation 19:
.”a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.
revelation 19;
21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.


No unbeliever will enter the millennium.

[Sword of Geddon]

Many believers will die at the hands of the governments of the world and especially the antichrist, that could not be the case with the pre-trib rapture view.

People should stop shoe-horning in views, and instead just read what the Bible actually says.

The only "rapture" that occurs is shortly before armageddon. There is only one return of Christ, one second coming.

[benny balerio]

Many believers will die at the hands of the governments of the world and especially the antichrist, that could not be the case with the pre-trib rapture view.

People should stop shoe-horning in views, and instead just read what the Bible actually says.

The only "rapture" that occurs is shortly before armageddon. There is only one return of Christ, one second coming.

Do you care to produce scripture to back up your claim rather than have us take your word for it?

[Sword of Geddon]

Anyone who has a bible and studies prophecy should be familiar with what I said in my last post. Quoting scripture neither adds nor detracts from what I have said. If you don't believe me, look for yourself. I believe you will find it in the verses following Apollyon's(the antichrist) rise from the abyss.

Here:

Various versions of Revelation 13:7

http://bible.cc/revelation/13-7.htm

If a rapture were to take place, how could the antichrist kill believers, if all believers on Earth were gone? Don't forget this event takes place shortly after the ascension of the Beast's government to the world government, which is early on in the Tribulation.

Also keep in mind the verses that speak of multitudes of believers in heaven begging God to avenge them after the Antichrist kills them on Earth.

[benny balerio]

Anyone who has a bible and studies prophecy should be familiar with what I said in my last post. Quoting scripture neither adds nor detracts from what I have said. If you don't believe me, look for yourself. I believe you will find it in the verses following Apollyon's(the antichrist) rise from the abyss.

Here:

Various versions of Revelation 13:7

http://bible.cc/revelation/13-7.htm

If a rapture were to take place, how could the antichrist kill believers, if all believers on Earth were gone? Don't forget this event takes place shortly after the ascension of the Beast's government to the world government, which is early on in the Tribulation.

Also keep in mind the verses that speak of multitudes of believers in heaven begging God to avenge them after the Antichrist kills them on Earth.

The Word of God is clear that the Bride will not enter Gods wrath (1 Thessalonians 1;10)
Obviously the Bride will not enter Daniels 70th week,.........The Great multitude are those who came to Christ Jesus,...after the rapture.

[Exit40]

Hi Benny. I know I have been off topic in my request. Not intended to derail you, I don't even think that is possible. But, I am still at a loss as to who the 70th week mortal survivors are. According to Scripture they cannot be believers, and they cannot be unbelievers, in an apparent contradiction. Since this is not possible in the Word of God, there must be two situations described, which I haven't sorted out yet. So I think I will bow out of the discussion for a while and search for the line which I can put upon the line which explains this situation to me. Thanks for trying to help out Benny.

God Bless You

David

[mrgravyard49]

Wasnt sure where to put this and I didnt want to start another Rapture thread..
so.

http://www.intouch.org/resources/articl ... he_rapture
..........
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-t ... my-friend/