Women/The Church/Moderators

by **aletheuo** on Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:10 am

I started a discussion on the NEWS board and it was requested it be moved to a general discussion board so, here it is: 
 
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While this thread seems to be based on deceiving the elect, I want to bring up a subject that heretofore seems to heve been avoided. 
 
And since there seem to be an abundance of women who post and moderate here, I am certain I will be taking hits. 
 
None the less, since many here seem to claim that certain points of view regarding the rapture, anything other than pre-wrath and beyond are invalid. 
 
Now in doing so, they claim any believers that claim to hold that view are being deceived by Satan. Even Herb stated this and that is what got this whole discussion going. 
 
Since we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and some seem to zealously claim thier position by scriptural reference, then this issue needs addressing. 
 
Here goes. 
 
1 Timothy, Paul, in his letter to Timothy while he ministered the church in Ephesus while Paul was in Macedonia. 
 
Paul is instructing Timothy in chapter 2 about worship. 
 
Chapter 2 verse 8 through 14 Paul tells Timothy this: 
 
8: "I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing." 
 
9: "I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10: but good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God." 
 
11: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission." 
 
12: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." 
 
13: "For Adam was formed first, then Eve." 
 
14: "And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." 
 
And we find Paul again in his first letter to the church at Corinth saying in 1 Corinthians 14:33-38: 
 
33: "For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace. As in all the congregationsof the saints." 
 
34: "women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says." 
 
35: "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." 
 
36: "Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?" 
 
37: "If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command." 
 
38: "If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored." 
 
Since we all seem to be taking the word of God literally, why are there women here that are allowed to moderate these boards and pass judgement, as it were, on the postings of men? 
 
There have been some pretty zealous conversations lately and I have been caught in the middle of some myself, having some of my posted statements severely admonished and as much as my salvation questioned. And by primarily women. Women who seem to have a propensity for castigating any and all views that differ from their own. 
 
Remember, this thread is about the elect being deceived. So, who is deceiving whom? Paul made it pretty clear about the place of a woman when it comes to the teaching of the word of God. 
 
I might add, before the responses come in, the first time the word 'church' is used in the Bible is in Matthew 16:18 and the last is in Revelation 3:14. 
 
The Greek for 'church' is ekklesia (ek-klay-see-ah) and means simply 'a group of people called out for a purpose' 
or 'the company of professed believers' Nothing to do with a building or a tent or your local place of worship. Or for that matter, this board. It is not a physical place. It is the Body of Christ. 
 
Quite simply it means the 'body of believers.' Us people. 
 
If this is so, and eveyone here professes that the word of God is true and unfailing and is to be adhered to, why do we have this situation at FP? 
 
Herb? 
 
"Speak the truth" 
 
 
Michael 
 
Edited by: aletheuo at: 7/15/05 10:03 am

by **mrshalfcent** on Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:28 am

Micheal, 
 
Herb handpicked the mods and if you have issue with that not sure what we can do about it. 
 
The written word is our source and our base for all answers or debates whatever. 
 
But seeing how you brought this up, I wonder if you can reconcile this for me: 
 
Acts 18 
 
24And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 
 
25This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 
 
26And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 
 
 
 
 
Romans 16 
 
1I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 
 
2That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also. 
 
3Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: 
 
4Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 
 
 
1 Corinthians 16 
 
18For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such. 
 
19The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house. 
 
20All the brethren greet you. Greet ye one another with an holy kiss. 
 
Women have thier part in the church. But the challenge by paul to have order is across the board don't you think? 
Who was the first to see Jesus resurrected? Who was told to deliver the first news of the resurrection to the disciples but wasn't believed? 
 
 
look forward to your thoughts 
blessings 
laura 
 
 
 
 
********************* 
The Bible is like a lion; it does not need to be defended; just let it loose and it will defend itself. 
-- Martin Luther 
 
"We fail in our duty to study God's Word not so much because it is difficult to understand, not so much because it is dull and boring, but because it is work. Our problem is not a lack of intelligence or a lack of passion. Our problem is that we are lazy." - R. C. Sproul 
 
 
"First, then, before you can speak peace to your hearts, you must be made to see, made to feel, made to weep over, made to bewail, your actual transgressions against the Law of God." - George Whitefield 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=mrshalfcent>mrshalfcent</A> at: 7/16/05 8:28 am

by **aletheuo** on Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:28 am

Laura, 
 
Thanks for the reply. First let me state emphatically that I do believe, wholeheartedly women do, indeed have a place in the church. 
 
As the verses you pointed out so attest. 
 
Aquila was Priscilla's husband. If you notice they took Apollos back to their home to explain the ways of God more adequately. It doesn't say they taught him in the Synagogue nor does it go against what is brought out in 1 Cor. 14:34 or 1 Tim. 2:11-12. 
 
Quite the contrary, they handled Apollos just as Paul had instructed. 
 
One thing that is important to know here about Priscilla is this. She is identified by Paul as a succourer and a helper. 
 
The Greek for 'succourer' is 'prostatis' (pros-tat'-is) and is used only one time and in this verse. 
 
It is of feminine gender of prostates and means patroness or assistant. And is used metaphorically of Phoebe as a protectress or patroness. 
 
Prostates was the title of a citizen of Athens, and one held in high esteem, who had the responsiblity of seeing to the rights of resident aliens who were without civic rights. Among the Jews it signified a wealthy patron of the community. 
 
So, it would seem that Phoebe and Priscilla were Jewish Christians that cared for and tended to Paul when he was in their city and he was asking in Romans 16, for those who were in Rome to take care of Phoebe as she visited. 
 
Great women of faith to be certain, wonderful helpers in the early church, but, not teachers over men. 
 
Hope this helps. 
 
Blessings Laura 
 
"Speak the truth" 
 
Michael 
 
 
 
Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aletheuo>aletheuo</A> at: 7/16/05 1:54 pm

by **RCMilWrite** on Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:06 am

The problem I see is when men are afraid of women. Strong, authoritative women are in roles in our church as Children's Ministry Director and Youth Choir Director. 
 
Technically, the Pastors are in authority over them. But these women have such strong 'take-charge' personalities that everyone, including the pastors are afraid to cross or challenge them. 
 
Or else the pastors just chose not to because they like the results; nice, well-attended musical 'shows' put on by youth, who admittedly attend church regularly, but are not taking the Word of God seriously in their lives. 
 
Or a children's department that runs like clockwork, but leaves in its wake many hurt feelings and offended potential workers. 
 
It is kind of a 'give them anything they want to keep the peace' atmosphere, which sounds exactly like the problem Paul was talking about...keeping order in the church. 
 
Meanwhile, these women become more and more stressed with their ministries, and even aparently their home life. One has three pre-school age boys! Yet try to offer help, and you are likely to get your head bitten off! 
 
Not that they don't have help, as long as the 'help' submits to the authority of these women. In other words, they are really the ones in charge, even over adult men who help in children's program, or are parents of youth. 
 
I really see problems even with boys (youth) submitting to authority of women in charge. I've been in ministry for 30 years and know for a fact there is much better order and control of children and youth when there is a man present and in charge. 
 
Children instinctively respond to authority of men, and instinctively challenge the authority of women. It is a fact. 
 
Blessings, Cindy

by **aletheuo** on Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:01 am

Cindy, 
 
As you posted yesterday about men taking more of a leadership role in the church, I totally agree. 
 
I think that is where the enemy has done his best in splitting todays 'church'. 
 
Men have this macho 'breadwinner' attitude and if it doesn't serve their macho man ego, they want no part of it. 
 
Satan has done a real number on this country. We have taken God's bleesing on this nation and turned it into a greedy 'whoever dies with the most wins' attitude. 
 
What I could never get was what they win? A permanent residence with the father of lies I guess. 
 
Anyway, glad to see you here. 
 
God Bless 
 
"Speak the truth" 
 
Michael

by **daffodyllady** on Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:11 pm

aletheuo, I appreciate your bringing up this subject, because it is not an easy one to deal with these days. I have struggled with this, also. 
 
Paul said not to let a woman speak in church, yet, they didnt have church houses back then; they met in homes. So, where was it that women were not allowed to speak? Was it only when the church was gathered in an assembly-type of meeting? How were these meetings conducted? Were they ever in a simple conversation together, that developed into a prayer meeting, which turned eventually into a praise and worship setting, and eventually someone had a word from the Lord for the group...? How did the women know it was time to shut up? 
 
We know that Paul stayed in the home of Philip the Evangelist, who had four daughters who were prophetesses. 
Did they have a time of worship together? I am sure they did. Did the women prophesy during that time together? We are not told! 
 
Also, on the day of Pentecost, there were 120 in the upper room. Were there women there? I believe there were. Acts 1:13-14 says that the women continued with the disciples in prayer in the upper room. Did the women speak in tongues and prophesy, even in the mixed company? Yes. How do I know? verse 17 says that "my sons AND my daughters shall prophesy. 
 
Also, I Cor 11:1-16, says that women are to cover their heads while praying or prophesying. (This has historically been taken literally by the entire church, world-wide, until the last 60 years. The time of apostacy) 
 
Therefore, women prophesy. Are they to keep silent in mixed company, but to be free to prophesy in private, before women? Wouldn't that open the door to real heresy, if women are more susceptible to a spirit of deception? After all, Paul said that we are to take turns prophesying, and the rest sitting by are to discern whether or not the prophecy is on track. Seems like a woman prophetess should prophesy specifically in front of the men who can discern! 
 
This is the explanation I heard from a pastor that seems to fit everything I read in the Word: 
 
A woman is given salvation equally alongside the men. 
A woman is given the gifts of the Spirit equally alongside the men. She can exercise her gifts alongside men, as long as she submits, as all men should submit to one another. 
But in the area of leadership, she should not seek, nor should she be given the office of, leadership over men. This means, she might bring something to the attention of the assembly, but she must not grasp for authority. 
 
This answers to the spirit of being in silence under authority, instead of a hammering down of women into a position of "say nothing, sing nothing, contribute nothing." 
 
It seems to be the Spirit of Jesus.

by **aletheuo** on Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:39 pm

Daffodyllady, 
 
Nicely put. The explanation the Pastor gave fits very well with what is in scrpture. 
 
If we look back, they say hind sight is always 20/20, and look into the '60's when all sorts of 'movements' were happening. We see the women's liberation movement. 
 
Remember the 'free love' and actually 'free everything' just stay outa my 'space' man. Everything goes attitude? 
 
Hey, if I ain't hurtin' no one, then what's the harm? 
 
I think this attitude was what really began the mess we see ourselves in today. 
 
Sex was something to be 'experienced', as Jimi Hendrix said. And it stripped women of the glory and position that God created them to have. Just look what the serpent told Eve. "For God knows when you that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God..." 
 
Sounds kind of like the first attempt at the "Equal Rights Amendment?" 
 
We all know where that got us. 
 
Satan has so tricked women into thinking they have to be equal to men and that is not how God made woman. 
 
Satan's lies have not uplifted women , to the contrary, women are under more duress today than ever. 
 
I believe that is one reason there is such a high percentage of divorces. Emasculate men, take the lead. anyway you can do everything he can, and the man says "Go for it, you don't need me so I guess I don't need you. See ya!" 
 
Sad indeed. 
 
Boy it sure is going to be sweet to let Jesus set up His Kingdom as it was intended from the beginning. I can't wait to see "His Kingdom on earth" 
 
Michael

by **bibleisreal** on Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:39 pm

Before I post more I want to say this post isn't about moderators because I don't see this board as a church.

Also, I Cor 11:1-16, says that women are to cover their heads while praying or prophesying. (This has historically been taken literally by the entire church, world-wide, until the last 60 years. The time of apostacy)

I Cor 11:15-16 
But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. 
 
But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God. 
 
For me long hair is important but for others it is not. It reads that a woman's long hair is her glory, given to her for a covering. But it also says it's not a custom we have to follow. I read it as wise advise. Please, correct me if I'm reading these verses wrong.

by **mewtwo360** on Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:13 pm

<img src=http://www.aaa-clipart.com/data/anim3/welcome/an1.gif ALT=":welcome"> bibileisreal <img src=http://www.smileys.ws/sm/cheeky/00000025.gif ALT=":cheeky"> For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregation of the saints, 
 
1 Corinthains 14:33

by **Be still** on Fri Jul 29, 2005 3:55 am

bibleisreal, why are you a new member with 1 post? "Be still, and know that I am God! I am exalted among the nations, I am exalted in the earth." Psalm 46:10

by **sparklymomma** on Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:29 am

Because he is using a global account now. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> 
 
 
You know...to me, messageboards they are like a house. FP in a way, is like Herb's house. He has invited people here to fellowship. He needs people to be hosts and hostesses. When someone visits, somebody has to let them in. Someone has to make them feel welcome, show them where the bathroom is...get them a cup of coffee or a snack...get bandaids, clean up spills...keep the peace... 
 
To me, moderating is like this...I try to keep the guests happy, by making sure people are using their manners. Herb has a few simple rules for this house, and the mods try to keep them. And when people start calling names, throwing the furniture around, kicking the cat, breaking windows...well, we show them the door. 
 
I don't claim to be a spiritual leader...don't claim to be an expert...not trying to teach men about spiritual things...haven't set myself up in any kind of usurping position. 
 
If people act polite here, and mind their manners, they won't have any problems here. That's all it is...simple manners that your mama probably taught you. 
 
Now, onto mama's... 
 
Jesus had one. 
 
Who raised him up unto the Lord? His mama. 
 
Who, when she thought he was ready, encouraged him to act, at the wedding in Cana, when there was no more wine? His mama. 
 
I don't want to rule the world. 
 
But I sure get tired of women getting disrespected...All men who think they are better, and make sure women know their place...Being a mod or admin here is not about power or leadership...it's just about helping keep an orderly house, so others can fellowship. 
 
ok, putting the soapbox away now... 
<div style="text-align:center">~~~~~~<img src="http://www.geocities.com/sparklymomma/coffeecup.gif"/>~~~~~~</div> 
 
Galatians 2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:28 am

Sparklymomma: 
 
Nice analogy (home) but in reality this discussion board is a spiritual group and the admins are, in a very real sense, spiritual leaders. I think the women mods should accept the position as coming from the Lord and not "downplay" the responsibiity because someone got/gets "snarly." 
 
1Co 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 
1Co 12:5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 
1Co 12:6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 
1Co 12:7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.  
 
Keep up the good work!<hr /> The Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? Psalm 27:1

by **bibleisreal** on Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:08 am

It is me, bibleisreal from before. I switched from a local account to a global user. That is why I'm showing as a first post again. I don't understand why it did that but it did. 
 
I hope I have not broken any rules as a guest here. I thought I have been following the rules. 
 
Sparkly I will pm you, thanks. 
 
PS I am a woman, a mother, a grandmother, a wife. I hope adding this clears up any misunderstanding about how I feel about long hair. Thanks. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p203.ezboard.com/bherbsdiscussionboard.showUserPublicProfile?gid=bibleisreal>bibleisreal</A> at: 7/29/05 10:11 am

by **sparklymomma** on Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:01 am

Thank you, Abiding. 
 
And <img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_104.gif ALT=":hugs"> bibleisreal, no one is mad at you! (Maybe you should be mad at me, for thinking you were a man!!! <img src=http://members.shaw.ca/wpf/fighting/fish.gif ALT=":fightfish"> ) <div style="text-align:center">~~~~~~<img src="http://www.geocities.com/sparklymomma/coffeecup.gif"/>~~~~~~</div> 
 
Galatians 2:16: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

by **bibleisreal** on Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:18 am

Thank you, sparkly. I'm not mad at all. <img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_104.gif ALT=":hugs">

by **wakened** on Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:21 pm

NKJ 
1Timothy 
2:8 I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; 
2:9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselfs in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 
2:10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 
2:11 Let women learn in silence with all submission. 
2:12 And I do not permit a women to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 
 
You notice that Paul says I not God not Jesus but I. 
Back then women were concidered nothing more than property.

by **Fisherman** on Thu Sep 08, 2005 7:10 pm

Did not Paul speak for Jesus? We cannot discount scripture simply because an apostle said it and the Lord Himself did not.

by **snowrosies** on Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:43 am

<img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_22_25.gif ALT=":floatingangel"> ..can I get some help please? 
I don't want to erase my post and he ask? so later may have to <img src=http://members.shaw.ca/wpf/yes_no/dunno.gif ALT=":dunno"> ...I wanted to ask? does that also apply to music,I like to play mostly. I find it of great help when he hooks up all the sound devices,as he knows how to do all that teck stuff....<img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_20.gif ALT=":peace?"> I don't mind so much if I have to erase the post if he is really <img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_18_5.gif ALT=":bag"> ... 
should I have to???<img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_5_135.gif ALT=":splat"> ... 
or is somebody being a bully?<img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_1_125.gif ALT=":answerquestion"> <img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_2.gif ALT=":whaa?"> 
yea!..sometimes it is you guys are bullys<img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_2.gif ALT=":whaa?"> 
stop being mean and <img src=http://www.smileys.ws/sm/sport/00000052.gif ALT=":boxer"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> oxer<img src=http://www.smileys.ws/sm/sport/00000052.gif ALT=":boxer"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> oxer<img src=http://www.smileys.ws/sm/sport/00000052.gif ALT=":boxer"> 
I will be alot more <img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_104.gif ALT=":hugs"> ..<img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_20.gif ALT=":peace?"> .. 
I don't mind cooperateing <img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_203.gif ALT=":sunshine"> ONLY!! when!!! you stop <img src=http://www.smileys.ws/sm/sport/00000052.gif ALT=":boxer"> <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":b"> oxer..I DON"T LIKE IT!<img src=http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/sad/sad0122.gif ALT=":verysad"> ..<img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_204v.gif ALT=":verymad"> .. 
 
thata fair enough?????<img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_1_125.gif ALT=":answerquestion"> ....ok <img src=http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_2_104.gif ALT=":hugs">

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