Restraining Sudden Destruction

[benny balerio]

Restraining Sudden Destruction
There is a sense among many at this moment in history that impending disaster presses against the fabric of life on planet earth from every side. This is not mere paranoia pushing against the collective anxiety-ridden psyche of a world uncertain about its future. The threat is real, and it is in Bible prophecy. A quick scan of issues, events, and anticipated actions testify to the reality of the threat and validates the angst.

Israel is ground zero for much of the fear pressing upon a world full of dread. The Jewish state is considered the trigger point for possible nuclear conflict in the Middle East–conflict that is sure to spread globally once unleashed. Iran is the antagonist that is the cause of the most immediate threat to regional and world peace–although the world diplomatic community seems intent on making Israel responsible for keeping war from erupting. This is the way it is, despite the fact that the Iranian regime’s leaders threaten to wipe Israel off the map.

Is puzzling to many as to why there hasn’t been an uncontrollable explosion there in the ancient Bible land. Israel’s restraint has been remarkable, considering the threat from its neighbors, particularly from Iran and its developing nuclear program. Rumors continue to fly of war-making against that program, thus to eliminate atomic weapons that will almost certainly be unleashed against Israel if allowed to come to fruition.

The world is in absolute economic chaos. Everywhere one looks, there are untenable fiscal circumstances that threaten not only national, but continental and even planetary economic implosion. Greece is the most recent to require a $170 billion bail-out--done, incidentally, with money that doesn’t really exist. Debt forgiveness and other sleight-of-hand chicanery are at the root of the “fix”--a trick similar to the trillions-of-dollars, smoke-and-mirrors maneuvering employed to keep America’s financial ship afloat for these months since the current administration began to wrestle with the controls of power.

Like in the case of the Israeli/Iranian threat to world peace, it is dumbfounding to many as to why these economic pressures, pressing in upon the fabric of world stability, hasn’t ruptured the building bubble and collapsed the global monetary structure. The worldwide terrorism factor--wrapped up in militant, fanatic Islam and the ongoing jihad declared against anyone and everyone who refuses to bow to Allah--amazingly hasn’t broken through the fabric of the world’s relative stability. Tremendous pressure from that quarter is on the rise in a mighty way, however.

No matter at which of Israel’s enemy neighbors one looks, there is seen the arising of Islamist insurgency. The Muslim Brotherhood--which, inexplicably, continues to be viewed by mainstream news and the Obama administration as a benign embryo of democracy on the ascent—is spreading its malignant tentacles through the Arab Spring assaults on governments in the region. They seek to replace present dictatorships with other dictatorships, controlled by an oligarchy-like rulership.

Why, many puzzle, has that incendiary movement not torched the combustible Mideast situation, igniting the conflagration the world’s diplomatic community fears?

I wrote at the beginning of this commentary that these pressures that represent a cataclysmic threat are in Bible prophecy. The end-of-the-age combination of absolute evil will, God’s prophetic Word says, comes much like the antediluvian age of Noah’s day, which ended with a great, destructive deluge.

Daniel the prophet put it this way: “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined” (Daniel 9:26).

Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection would, the prophet foretold, set in motion events that will culminate with mankind’s final war that will be fought this side of Christ’s return. The desolations of that era will be like a flood--i.e., the war of good versus evil will include many troubles, which God’s Word outlines for anyone who truly is a watchman in the last days.

Jesus told those watchmen (mentioned in Mark 13: 37) that when we see all of these things, including great wars and rumors of war, that we are to know that the end “is not yet” (Matthew 24:6). But we are to be looking up, because He is very near to His time of return (Luke 21:28).

When is the end coming, then? We know from Daniel’s prophecy that a flood of issues and events with evil at their core will mark the end. Jesus Himself prophesied that the time of His coming will be like it was in the times of Noah’s day and like Lot’s day in Sodom (read Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:36-42). Things will be moving along relatively as usual for those times.

We must remember that those times were filled with godlessness and great evil, even though people were buying, selling, marrying, planting, etc. Jesus then said that the same day Noah went into the ark, and the same day that Lot was taken from Sodom, God’s judgment fell. He said it will be exactly like in those days at the time He returns.

That first phase of His return will be at the Rapture of His church–not at His Second Advent (Revelation 19:11). We can know that is true, because at the time of His Second Coming at Armageddon, it will not be business as usual. The earth will be almost completely destroyed, and nearly three-fourths of mankind will have been killed by that time.

Prophetic observers of God’s Word are witnessing that end-times onslaught of pressures from evil that Daniel called a flood. But, that flood hasn’t broken the dam holding it back. This is amazing even to many who watch and believe in prophetic stage-setting. Why hasn’t the Middle East completely exploded in war? Why hasn’t the world economy imploded, bringing about worldwide financial collapse? Why have the Muslims been allowed to continue to set up their long-desired, worldwide caliphate, while Israel more and more is viewed as the troublemaker that might be the instigator of war?

Paul the apostle, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, told us the reason things haven’t yet completely come apart--why evil hasn’t yet taken over: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2 Thessalonians 2:7-10)

The KJV word “withholdeth” in the Greek language is katecho. It means to “restrain.” So, this prophecy by Paul is about the one who will “restrain” evil, until He is taken out of the way. The Restrainer is God the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Holy Trinity. God Himself is restraining the evil, which can’t take over the world and be ruled by Antichrist.

How can God be “taken out of the way” so evil and Antichrist can take over for a time? This will happen only when the church–all believers in Christ (the born again) are taken to Heaven in the Rapture. The Holy Spirit indwells each and every Christian at present. When the Church is raptured from the earth, the Holy Spirit will serve a different purpose in God’s plan for the consummation of human history. He will no longer restrain the evil thoughts of mankind. He will no longer govern the consciences of those left behind to endure the Tribulation–the final seven years of history before Christ’s Second Coming. It is no wonder that Jesus said that time will be the worst that has ever been, or ever will be (Matthew 24:21).

It will be hell on earth when the Restrainer no longer restrains evil as He does in this present hour. Jesus says that at the time the Holy Spirit leaves His restraining office, judgment will fall that very day (again, reread Luke 17: 26-30 and Matthew 24:36-42).

That stupendous change for all of mankind can take place at any moment. Here is what Jesus told us further: “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44).

Terry

http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html


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[Mr Baldy]

The Restrainer is God the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Holy Trinity.

I think that one needs to be very careful when a comment like this is made.

No where in Scripture will you find that the Holy Spirit is "the third Person of the Holy Trinity". Nor will you find anywhere in Scripture that Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity. To make a comment like this is to place a rank, or make the Holy Spirit less inferior to Jesus and the Father - when they All are co-equal. There is no "third Person", nor is there a second Person when mentioning the Trinity. They are all God manifested as One, co-equal in existence, power and authority - always has been, and will always be.

The Godhead is a mystery.

I would recommend reading the book of Colossians, which speaks of the Godhead - explaining the preeminence of Christ, and how the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him.

[benny balerio]

The Restrainer is God the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Holy Trinity.

I think that one needs to be very careful when a comment like this is made.

No where in Scripture will you find that the Holy Spirit is "the third Person of the Holy Trinity". Nor will you find anywhere in Scripture that Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity. To make a comment like this is to place a rank, or make the Holy Spirit less inferior to Jesus and the Father - when they All are co-equal. There is no "third Person", nor is there a second Person when mentioning the Trinity. They are all God manifested as One, co-equal in existence, power and authority - always has been, and will always be.

The Godhead is a mystery.

I would recommend reading the book of Colossians, which speaks of the Godhead - explaining the preeminence of Christ, and how the Fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him.

The Word "Trinity",..."Bible",.... nor "Rapture"...is not written in the bible as such,..yet I assure you it is revealed as such.
Nor does the Word of God reveal a ranking system in the Godhead,as in one inferior to the other.
Nor does the topic even come close to suggesting what you claim here.


John 14:9
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[Mr Baldy]

Nor does the topic even come close to suggesting what you claim here.

Oh but it does.

You have placed a specific task for the Holy Spirit to perform - and that in your own interpretation, and with this you have assigned Him a position in the Trinity. With your very comments you imply that because He is this so-called "third Person" that His assignment is somewhat inferior to that of the Father and Son.

[benny balerio]

Nor does the topic even come close to suggesting what you claim here.

Oh but it does.

You have placed a specific task for the Holy Spirit to perform - and that in your own interpretation, and with this you have assigned Him a position in the Trinity. With your very comments you imply that because He is this so-called "third Person" that His assignment is somewhat inferior to that of the Father and Son.

Oh! but it does not.
The Lord Jesus made it clear that the Comforter came to earth for a specific task,..which comes to an end when the "Fullness of the Gentiles" come in.

I believe that your perception is in error.
Again,...how can this be suggesting that the Holy Spirit as inferior when we know that the Godhead is three in one?

You seem to think that the word..."Third Person" is a degradation or a remark suggesting inferiority.
So tell me,...what does the Word..."LET US" imply to you?
All the more what does "First person or second person imply?

You see,..your arguement here is baseless because the following scripture states the following:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I count three,....First, second, and third.
All three are one and in agreement with each other.

[Mr Baldy]

The Lord Jesus made it clear that the Comforter came to earth for a specific task

This is true - but not within the interpretation that you have assigned to Him. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter; He is the Counselor; He is the Helper; He does guide us, and convict us of sin; and He does reveal. No where is Scripture is it indicated that He is a "Restrainer".

You see,..your arguement here is baseless because the following scripture states the following:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I count three,....First, second, and third.

I count three Persons as well - but no where do I read that They are identified as "First", "second" and "third".

[benny balerio]

The Lord Jesus made it clear that the Comforter came to earth for a specific task

This is true - but not within the interpretation that you have assigned to Him. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter; He is the Counselor; He is the Helper; He does guide us, and convict us of sin; and He does reveal. No where is Scripture is it indicated that He is a "Restrainer".

You see,..your arguement here is baseless because the following scripture states the following:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

I count three,....First, second, and third.

I count three Persons as well - but no where do I read that They are identified as "First", "second" and "third".

You Quote:
No where is Scripture is it indicated that He is a "Restrainer".

My Reply:
The word that stands out is the word you use here ......." indicated "

You are in error,..the scriptures very much so indicates that the Holy Spirit as the restrainer.

There is no hint in the pauline letters of a departure from the faith,..but it does reveal a rapture.
But,...that does not make sense that a event of mass exodus from the faith ....The Lord did state that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church,...in other words a mass exodus would seem to contradict that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the church.
Besides,...The Holy Spirit has sealed the Believer unto the Day of redemption with promise.He says that He would never leave us nor forsake us.
Again,..2 Thessalonians 1through 7 suggest a rapture and not a departure of the faith.
I through 7....There is nothing leading up to nor does it suggest a falling away from the faith.
What people today rely on is the interpretaters,..but we know that they are not above making errors.

In the Following,..I suggest that you study it, and you should realize it is indicating a rapture.

http://www.bibleprophesy.org/apostasia.htm

I ask you,....where do you see anything indicating a falling away in the following scripture?
2 Thessalonians 2:1
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

Liddell and Scott and TDNT suggest that APOSTASIA is a later construction for another noun APOSTASIS. The reason I ask this is related to the argument about APOSTASIA as the Rapture in 2 Thess 2:3. Those who argue this position point to the fact that APOSTASIA did have the meaning of "spatial departure" in classical Greek. For APOSTASIA itself LSJ lists only one reference for "spatial departure," and this is from the 6th century A.D. Apparently, the argument that APOSTASIA meant "spatial departure" in the classical period comes from its association with APOSTASIS. Is APOSTASIA more than just a different way to spell APOSTASIS--I assume so. The article in TDNT also says APOSTASIA is a later construction for APOSTASIS, but in the discussion seems to suggest that have a slightly different meaning. Is it legitimate to say that the later APOSTASIA is fully equivalent to the earlier APOSTASIS?
Liddell & Scott (apostasis): --(revolt / departure)
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/le ... =&lookup=a)po/stasis
...

apostasia and metatithemi can both mean "to fall away".
apostasia and metatithemi can both mean "to depart" from a person, place, or thing.
apostasia and metatithemi can both mean a "change" in that a defection/apostasy is a change of heart, and the rapture is a change.
apostasia and metatithemi (in their related words, metathesis & aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".

Enoch was raptured. Metatithemi. Apostasia has much in common with metatithemi (used to describe Enoch's rapture).

The word .."Rebellion" is an incorrect interpretation.

The Holy Spirit is omnipresent during the tribulation(Daniels 70th week)
But He is not indwelling believers, as He did prior to Daniels 70th week.
The Holy Spirits new task began on the Day of Pentecost and ends when the "Fullness of the Gentiles" have come in.

When one weighs the scales, based on the text, and the harmonic flow of scripture as a whole in the Word of God,...there is no doubt that the Holy Spirit is the "Restrainer"

[Mr Baldy]

Dear Benny,

I'm going to pray that the Lord sends you understanding. I can tell that you desire it - as you are searching for Truth. Peace, my brother in Christ.

Baldy

[benny balerio]

Dear Benny,

I'm going to pray that the Lord sends you understanding. I can tell that you desire it - as you are searching for Truth. Peace, my brother in Christ.

Baldy

I appreciate that thought Baldy,...but the Lord has already given me a double dose of wisdom and understanding...God Bless.

[rizen]

When is the end coming, then? We know from Daniel’s prophecy that a flood of issues and events with evil at their core will mark the end. Jesus Himself prophesied that the time of His coming will be like it was in the times of Noah’s day and like Lot’s day in Sodom (read Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:36-42). Things will be moving along relatively as usual for those times. We must remember that those times were filled with godlessness and great evil, even though people were buying, selling, marrying, planting, etc. Jesus then said that the same day Noah went into the ark, and the same day that Lot was taken from Sodom, God’s judgment fell. He said it will be exactly like in those days at the time He returns.

That first phase of His return will be at the Rapture of His church–not at His Second Advent (Revelation 19:11). We can know that is true, because at the time of His Second Coming at Armageddon, it will not be business as usual. The earth will be almost completely destroyed, and nearly three-fourths of mankind will have been killed by that time.

According to Pretribulationist Terry James, Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:36-42 are passages that deal with the Rapture of the Church. According to him, you want to be among the taken in Matt. 24:40-41 and not the left behind.

But according to pre-trib.org the opposite is true. Thomas Ice believes that you don't want to be among the taken, as the individuals who are taken are same ones slated for the judgment of God.

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-(Part33)AnInterpreta.pdf
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-(Part34)AnInterpreta.pdf

So which Pretribulationist is wrong here, Terry James or Thomas Ice?

[Ready1]

I appreciate that thought Baldy,...but the Lord has already given me a double dose of wisdom and understanding...God Bless

.

We all just want to be certain that someone else has not given us a "double dose of pride".

[Exit40]

Hi Benny.

When the rapture should take place, resulting in my absence...

By what measure do you count yourself worthy for the rapture ? What is it that makes you so sure you will be among that group ?

God Bless You

David

[Sword of Geddon]

1. The entire "rapture" doctrine originates with another religion, that of Zoroastrianism, people have been trying to "shoehorn" it into christianity for hundreds of years in various forms. It is a false doctrine that should have no place in the vocabulary of believers.

2. The identity of the "restrainer" needs to be understood with context. Context being the entirety of scripture, but also the book the term "the restrainer" lies in.

The restrainer being removed has something to do with the anti-christ's rise to power, or rather the kingdom he eventually comes to rule. So it is something that is preventing the beast kingdom, or a one world government or close to it, from having real power.

[benny balerio]

Hi Benny.

When the rapture should take place, resulting in my absence...

By what measure do you count yourself worthy for the rapture ? What is it that makes you so sure you will be among that group ?

God Bless You

David

Hi David,...just now caught this,....To answer your question...I present the following scriptures:

2 Corinthians 1;
20For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

John 10:28, "No one can snatch them out of my hand," they have to insert the phrase "but us" after "no one".

1 Corinthians 5:
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful naturea may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

6Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.



A spirit is not saved unless that person had asked the Lord into thier heart in sincerity at one time in thier life.
Regardless how one may reason that a person can choose to walk away from Christ Jesus,..there is nothing that one can say that can override the above scriptures.
Once a person has been saved........Always saved!

The person who falls into the status of the progical son is a very miserable person indeed,..with the Holy Spirit burning their conscience.
After all,..the Lord said that He would never leave nor forsake us.

Ephesians 1;
11In him we were also chosen,e having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

[benny balerio]

1. The entire "rapture" doctrine originates with another religion, that of Zoroastrianism, people have been trying to "shoehorn" it into christianity for hundreds of years in various forms. It is a false doctrine that should have no place in the vocabulary of believers.

2. The identity of the "restrainer" needs to be understood with context. Context being the entirety of scripture, but also the book the term "the restrainer" lies in.

The restrainer being removed has something to do with the anti-christ's rise to power, or rather the kingdom he eventually comes to rule. So it is something that is preventing the beast kingdom, or a one world government or close to it, from having real power.

My reply:

The first hint is that the Pauline letters never come close to suggesting a falling away prior to 2 Thessalonians 2;3
2 thessalonians 2;1 talks about our gathering(Rapture) to the Lord at the very start.

Then all of a sudden an interpreter thinks that a word should be interpreted as "rebellion" or "Falling away"
Always remember that Context is king!

Strong's Concordance is not a translation of the Bible nor is it intended as a translation tool. The use of Strong's numbers is not a substitute for professional translation of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into English by those with formal training in ancient languages and the literature of the cultures in which the Bible was written.

Since Strong's Concordance identifies the original words in Hebrew and Greek, Strong's Numbers are sometimes misinterpreted by those without adequate training to change the Bible from its accurate meaning simply by taking the words out of cultural context. The use of Strong's numbers does not consider figures of speech, metaphors, idioms, common phrases, cultural references, references to historical events, or alternate meanings used by those of the time period to express their thoughts in their own language at the time. As such, professionals and amateurs alike must consult a number of contextual tools to reconstruct these cultural backgrounds. Many scholarly Greek and Hebrew Lexicons (e.g., Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Thayer's Greek Dictionary, and Vine's Bible Dictionary) also use Strong's numbers for cross-referencing, encouraging hermeneutical approaches to study.

The parallel between verse 3 and 7-8, showing the antichrist is revealed after the rapture.
Words With Similar Definitions: methormizô, remove from one anchorage to another
Words With Similar Definitions: metex-anistamai, Pass., move from one place to another
Apostasia is translated as "Dissecto" in Latin, which has a meaning of a "spacial departure".
Apostasia is translated as "departure" in many Bibles.
Liddell and Scott Dictionary authors note Apostasia is translated as "spacial departure" in one case in the 6th century.
metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to fall away"
metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both mean "to depart"
metatithemi, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both signify "change" as the rapture is a change.
metathesis, used for Enoch's rapture, and apostasia both (in the word it's derrived from, aphistemi) can both mean "to remove".
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo (rapture in 1 Thess 4:17), can both mean "to take"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to seize"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to snatch away"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, also carries the meaning "to marry, take a wife" which is a strong rapture parallel
Apostasia and harpazo both carry connotations of violence. Apostaisia a violent revolt & rebellion, and harpazo "to seize by force" John 6:15
Harpazo, like metathesis and aphistemi--root of apostasia, mean "to remove"
Harpazo is used in a peculiar way to signify "falling away from the faith" in Matthew 13:19, which is the main definition of apostasia.
The play on words of "stand in, present" enistemi and "stand off, absent" aphistemi, shows that apostasia, which comes from aphistemi, signifies the rapture, when people will be "absent".
ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, means "be married to" and the rapture is the marriage.
ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, means "to arise" and the rapture is when we rise up.
ginomai, the word for "taken" (out of the way) in verse 7, the parallel of apostasia in verse 3, signifies "of miracles" and the rapture will be a miracle.
Apostasia, as rapture, is fully consistent with apostasia as religious rebellion, and it is not an either/or definition or option, the word means both.
Those who say the pre trib rapture is false doctrine (an apostasy) unwittingly confirm that apostasia signifies rapture.

There is a parallel going on, that in simple & plain English language on the surface, or in any other translation in any other Language, anyone should be able to see:

Verse 3: "a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed"
Verses 7,8 "he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed"

[benny balerio]

I appreciate that thought Baldy,...but the Lord has already given me a double dose of wisdom and understanding...God Bless

.

We all just want to be certain that someone else has not given us a "double dose of pride".

No,...The Lord receives all the Praise, honor and Glory.
Without Him,..I can do nothing.
The Quote above that I made was the truth,,...I asked Him and I believe that I received.
God bless You Ready1

[benny balerio]

When is the end coming, then? We know from Daniel’s prophecy that a flood of issues and events with evil at their core will mark the end. Jesus Himself prophesied that the time of His coming will be like it was in the times of Noah’s day and like Lot’s day in Sodom (read Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:36-42). Things will be moving along relatively as usual for those times. We must remember that those times were filled with godlessness and great evil, even though people were buying, selling, marrying, planting, etc. Jesus then said that the same day Noah went into the ark, and the same day that Lot was taken from Sodom, God’s judgment fell. He said it will be exactly like in those days at the time He returns.

That first phase of His return will be at the Rapture of His church–not at His Second Advent (Revelation 19:11). We can know that is true, because at the time of His Second Coming at Armageddon, it will not be business as usual. The earth will be almost completely destroyed, and nearly three-fourths of mankind will have been killed by that time.

According to Pretribulationist Terry James, Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:36-42 are passages that deal with the Rapture of the Church. According to him, you want to be among the taken in Matt. 24:40-41 and not the left behind.

But according to pre-trib.org the opposite is true. Thomas Ice believes that you don't want to be among the taken, as the individuals who are taken are same ones slated for the judgment of God.

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-(Part33)AnInterpreta.pdf
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-(Part34)AnInterpreta.pdf

So which Pretribulationist is wrong here, Terry James or Thomas Ice?

Dear Rizen,
Have you read Mark S's post?
It is very insightful in understanding the gospels
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=33426

Rizen,..just because someone believes in pre-trib rapture,......I do not necessariy agree with all of one's interpretations.
I did try to pull up the links that you provided,..but these could not be found by the website.

In the Luke account,..I see it definately as a rapture intend message for the Bride.

In the Matthew account,..I see it as both.
The marrying and giving in marriage and drinking,....is a sign of everyday normal life,....this scenario cannot be placed into the time era of the bowl judgements just prior to the physical return of our Lord at Armageddon.

But it can also be seen as a thief in the night message,...such as the 10 bridesmaids parable,...in which, during that time,...one must endure in their faith by providing evidence of their faith on a daily basis through works.
Without this manner of faith during the Great Tribulation,...one,... will not have enough oil in their lamps (The influence of the Holy Spirit)in their lives when the Lord returns,..in which would become evident at the sheep and goat judgement that occurs just prior to the beginning of the millennium.The Unbeliver obviously will not know, nor will he be aware of the signs of our returning Lord,until it is too late.

[Sword of Geddon]

Well, since Revelation clearly states that there will be only one second coming at Megido, don't you think we should believe it? Why not take the word at face value?

Things would be much simplier if people simply trusted God's word, and stopped following traditions or teachings that simply are not clearly stated.

[benny balerio]

Well, since Revelation clearly states that there will be only one second coming at Megido, don't you think we should believe it? Why not take the word at face value?

Things would be much simplier if people simply trusted God's word, and stopped following traditions or teachings that simply are not clearly stated.

Oh you think?

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

[Sword of Geddon]

Well if there were no believers on Earth due to a rapture, then there would be no believers or saints for the antichrist to overcome, conquer, and slay, as Revelation says there will be.

So there is one example of the falsity of the pre-trib rapture doctrine.

Another is the fact that the Bible states that believers WILL suffer trials and tribulation. It also states that the tribulation is shortened for the sake of believers.

It is silly doctrines like the rapture that cause unnecessary confusion when it comes to prophecy. God is not the author of confusion.

[benny balerio]

Well if there were no believers on Earth due to a rapture, then there would be no believers or saints for the antichrist to overcome, conquer, and slay, as Revelation says there will be.

So there is one example of the falsity of the pre-trib rapture doctrine.

Another is the fact that the Bible states that believers WILL suffer trials and tribulation. It also states that the tribulation is shortened for the sake of believers.

It is silly doctrines like the rapture that cause unnecessary confusion when it comes to prophecy. God is not the author of confusion.

You Quote:
Well if there were no believers on Earth due to a rapture, then there would be no believers or saints for the antichrist to overcome, conquer, and slay, as Revelation says there will be.

So there is one example of the falsity of the pre-trib rapture doctrine.

My Reply:
Your Logic does not make sense at all.

You Quote:
Another is the fact that the Bible states that believers WILL suffer trials and tribulation

My Reply:
And the Bible also reveals that the Bride will not enter Gods wrath.....obviously the trials and tribulation you refer too,...are not the type described about Daniels 70th week.

You Quote:
It also states that the tribulation is shortened for the sake of believers.

My Reply:
Yes that is correct,...that is why the Great tribulation will last only 42 months,..or 1,260 days.

[Sword of Geddon]

But why would God shorten something if the people he is shortening it for are spirited away beforehand? From what I understand the non-believers during the Tribulation will hate and curse God for the judgements.

Because there are so many in heaven begging God to avenge them after the antichrist kills them, and the amount of wicked unbelievers who refuse to repent, I don't understand how the Rapture could take place before the trib. The descriptions many ascribe to the rapture are very similiar to how the second coming is described. Are you sure that the rapture and the second coming are not one in the same event?

[benny balerio]

But why would God shorten something if the people he is shortening it for are spirited away beforehand? From what I understand the non-believers during the Tribulation will hate and curse God for the judgements.

Because there are so many in heaven begging God to avenge them after the antichrist kills them, and the amount of wicked unbelievers who refuse to repent, I don't understand how the Rapture could take place before the trib. The descriptions many ascribe to the rapture are very similiar to how the second coming is described. Are you sure that the rapture and the second coming are not one in the same event?

You Quote:
But why would God shorten something if the people he is shortening it for are spirited away beforehand? From what I understand the non-believers during the Tribulation will hate and curse God for the judgements.

My Reply:
Dear Sword of Geddon,
I believe that your confusion comes from believing that the Bride enters Daniels 70th week.
The very moment that the bride is raptured in a pre-trib setting,..there will not be one saved person on the earth at that very moment.
That is why the Lord will cause 144,000 Jews to become sealed/anointed,...in that the ministry of the 144,000 will result in bringing a multitude of new believers to the Lord Jesus that no man can count.
The martyredom of these new believers, I believe will not begin until the Lord grants the beast power and authority to overcome the tribulations saints,....which will not come to pass until about the time the Abomination of Desolation begins in the second half of Daniels 70th week.
These tribulation believers that are martyred will receive new immortal bodies,...but these new believers are not identified as the Bride,......but are saved.
There is a distinction between the Bride and the tribulation saints.
The Bride is saved by Grace.
If one misses the pre-trib rapture by fence sitting or said, "I'm just was not ready" ,.......,...and decide to believe and ask the Lord into their heart after the pre-trib rapture,...then these new believers will be required to provide evidence of their faith by works,..and must endure in it until the end,...either as a martyred saint or as a survivor.

[Sword of Geddon]

What you say makes sense. But if Christ returns to rapture believers, but it also states Christ's second coming will be as a warrior, why would it identify a rapture as the second coming?

Also the description often used for the rapture is nearly the same as the description for the resurrection before megiddo.

[benny balerio]

What you say makes sense. But if Christ returns to rapture believers, but it also states Christ's second coming will be as a warrior, why would it identify a rapture as the second coming?

Also the description often used for the rapture is nearly the same as the description for the resurrection before megiddo.

The Word of God never mentions a rapture nor even describes a rapture just moments prior to armageddon.
It's just not there.
What you will find is that a resurrection(not a rapture) is prophecied to occur after armageddon,..sometime shortly after the antichrist and false prophet are both thrown into the lake of fire,..we must not forget that satan will be bound in chains and thrown into the bottomless pit before the resurrection of the martyred saints of revelation 20;4
Some people incorrectly believe that the rapture("caught up") is the same description as "resurrection".....but it is not so.
The following is the definition of resurrection:
res·ur·rec·tion (rz-rkshn)
n.
1. The act of rising from the dead or returning to life.
2. The state of one who has returned to life.
3. The act of bringing back to practice, notice, or use; revival.
4. Resurrection Christianity
a. The rising again of Jesus on the third day after the Crucifixion.
b. The rising again of the dead at the Last Judgment.

resurrection
noun
1. revival, restoration, renewal, resurgence, return, comeback (informal), renaissance, rebirth, reappearance, resuscitation, renascence This is a resurrection of an old story.
revival killing off
2. (usually caps) raising or rising from the dead, return from the dead, restoration to life the Resurrection of Jesus Christ
raising or rising from the dead demise, burial

[Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin resurrcti, resurrctin-, from Latin resurrctus, past participle of resurgere, to rise again; see resurge.]

The following is the definition of rapture:
Rapture", when used in eschatological terms, is an English word used in place of the Latin word raeptius; taken from the Vulgate, which in turn is a translation of the Koine Greek word harpazo, which is found in the Greek New Testament manuscripts of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

In many modern English translations of the Bible, harpazo is translated; "caught up", or "taken away".

The Greek word αρπάζω (pronounced \har-pad'-zo\) means "to snatched".

[caught up=HARPAZO=Rapture]


laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo (rapture in 1 Thess 4:17), can both mean "to take"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to seize"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, and harpazo, can both mean "to snatch away"
laqach, used for Enoch's rapture, also carries the meaning "to marry, take a wife" which is a strong rapture parallel

[Sword of Geddon]

There seems to be a big amount of debate on this topic. Is all of Revelation in the tribulation, or will events occur depicted in it(and Daniel and Ezekiel) occur before the actually Trib? It seems to me that anything that happens in prophecy will naturally have events leading up to it.

Right now you have the UN, world trade org, international criminal court, international law, and a world economy. You have the groundwork for a future world government, or something close to it.

A new babylon is being built, I believe that is significant. Are we going to see the rise of the beast government before the trib begins?

[benny balerio]

There seems to be a big amount of debate on this topic. Is all of Revelation in the tribulation, or will events occur depicted in it(and Daniel and Ezekiel) occur before the actually Trib? It seems to me that anything that happens in prophecy will naturally have events leading up to it.

Right now you have the UN, world trade org, international criminal court, international law, and a world economy. You have the groundwork for a future world government, or something close to it.

A new babylon is being built, I believe that is significant. Are we going to see the rise of the beast government before the trib begins?

Yes,..you are correct, that events lead up to it.
At this very moment the Tribulation period is casting it's shadow upon all the world.
The Stage is now set up.
Check mate is about to be called.
All....is awaiting one event,......."THE RAPTURE OF THE BRIDE OF JESUS CHRIST"

THe Iranian nuclear crises.
Israels Motto,...."NEVER AGAIN"
Syria, will soon fulfill Prophecy of Isaiah 17;1
All the nations touching Israels border about to fulfill the prophecy of Psalms 83......which will set the conditions of Ezekiel 38,...which in turn brings on Daniels 70th week.

At this time we see all the signs of a great war brewing in the middle east.
I believe that it is a war that consists of the prophecies of Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17;1.
With that thought in mind,...please be aware that the nations mentioned in Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17;1....are not at all mentioned in Ezekiel 38.

Also keep in mind that the way is clear for Russia to someday make it's mad dash to the south in it's foretold prophetic attack against Israel.
In the Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17;1 prophecies,..The nations mentioned involved,...I call them the "Inner ring" nations that touch Israel's borders today,...and the Islamic nations that are involved with Russia in the future attack abainst Israel I call them the "outter ring" nations.

Based on all the incoming news in the last few weeks, it does seem that there will be a war in the middle east in the next few weeks.
In the meantime,...we are all witnessing other major prophecies occuring such as "The Ten" in the European Union and the possible collapse of it's monetary structure.There is talk that some of the E.U. nations may break away, and become their own soverien nations again,...but if this does not happen,..then I assure you that these E.U. nations are hanging on by a thread,..in which I believe that the Rapture of the Bride will be the event that breaks the economy in the E.U.
Thereby causing the E. U. nations to dissolve, but leaving only "The Ten" to remain on the scene.

I do believe that in the aftermath of the coming Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17;1 war,..........that Israel will destroy all of the islamic nations that touch her borders today, and will annex them as Greater Israel.
Do you remember the scriptures in Genesis 15..?
If you will do the research,..you will find that the Propmise that God made Abraham to his descendants in the amount of land that He assigned them did consist of a small slice of Egypt,....all of Jordan,....all of Lebanon,...all of Syria,...Northern Iraq,....and 1/3rd of Saudi Arabia..........WOW!!!......Do you realize that if Israel obtains all the land that I just mentioned, that She would be very very wealthy and the envy of the world!
With that thought in mind,....read Ezekiel 36;11.....you will read the Words saying:.."and will make you prosper more than before"
In the past,..the wealth of Israel had reached it's Pinnicle during the time of Solomon.And Yet the Lord says.."and will make you prosper more than before"

When this war is over and done with,..Israel will be very wealthy and,..considering that she has destroyed the "Inner Ring" of Islamic nations that touch her borders today,...She will be dwelling "CARELESSLY IN PEACE AND SAFETY"
This is a requirement before the Ezekiel 38 prophecy can come to pass!

The Day Of the Lord beginns with Ezekiel 38;18-20.......AH!!!...We know that the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the Air prior to The Day of the Lord.

When we read 1 Thessalonians 5;3...we observe the following:
What stands out are the words..."They"......"Them"..."Destruction"...and...."They"
When I see the Word Destruction,..I am reminded of 1 Thessalonians 1;10 which is clear that the Lord rescues us from the wrath to come....In other words......"Before it occurs"
It is always after a war that people cry out for peace and safety...in other words,..I believe these words will be spoken after the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17;1 comes to pass.
Take notice that the Words..."THEY"..."THEM"....AND "THEY" in 1 Thessalonians 5;3 indicates that this is what the "WORLD" will be crying out,..and also keep in mind that the Bride is not of the World.

Prior to the Day of Pentecost,..the Jewish race were Gods People,..But they Rejected Him, not believing that He was their long awaited Messiah.
So The Lord decides that He would gather a people for His own out of the Gentile nations.
Today,..there is no difference between Jew and Gentile to those in Christ Jesus.
This will continue to be so up until the "Fullness of the Gentiles" has come in.
Only God the Father knows who that last person will be that will complete the full number of the Bride in this church age.
But once that last person comes into the church,...the Church age will be over and the rapture will occur.
From Genesis up until the Cross,..was without the Bride,....the last 7 years too will be without the Bride.

Do take notice that Daniel 9;24 Gabriel says to Daniel....."Daniel this is what is going to happen to your people"
The key Words here are...."YOUR PEOPLE"
Daniels people we all know are the Jewish race.
Again,...Remember that I pointed out earlier that the Day of the Lord begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20...and that the Bride is rescued just prior to The Day of the Lord(1 Thessalonians 1;10)
Well,....Ezekiel 38;14.....God says the Words "MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"...The Lord here is calling Israel once again His people.
This here is a clue that the rapture had already occured prior to Gog-Magog war.

Now for the Icing on the cake:
Read Psalms 83;3...notice that it uses the Words..."YOUR PEOPLE" in which he is referring to Israel.
This once again indicates that the Bride was already gone.
We know that this war will occur at an unknown day and hour,..and we know that the rapture too occurs at an unknown day and hour.
I believe that we are all on the Edge of Eternity.
If you have any loose ends,...like people you want to witness too,..I advise that you do it now!......God Bless you all.

[Sword of Geddon]

good post you write very well.

Oil was recently discovered in Israel..I noticed Russia, Iran and their allies ramp up their activities since that was announced.

[Mrs. B]

Restraining Sudden Destruction...

Benny.....most of what you are saying...I agree...
BUt....
you must understand.....Israel is Now the Church.....we are Spiritual Israel..
Notice...Epheians 3:1...(Gentiles are fellowheirs with Israel...)
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles...

Eph 2:4...But God, who is rich in Mercy, for His Great Love wherewith he Loved us,
5...Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us TOGETHER with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6...And hath raised us up TOGETHER, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

talking about the gentiles, and Jews he has made both one by the Spirit....not the flesh.
2:14....For he is our peace, WHO Hath Made BOTH ONE, And hath Broken Down the Middle Wall of Partition between us;
15...Having Abolished in His Flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make himself of Twain ONE NEW MAN, So making PEACE;
16...And that he might Reconcile BOTH UNTO GOD IN ONE BODY BY THE CROSS, Having Slain the Enmity thereby:
17...And Came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh...
Now notice
18....For through HIM We BOTH have Access By One Spirit unto the Father.
19....Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the Household of God;.....Paul was writting to the Ephesians, Gentile Believers this is a mystery revealed that God has made both the Jew and the Gentile one.
( God Has Made both Jew and Gentile One, by the Holy Spirit...the New Birth...A Spiritual Birth)
That is why Jesus taught in John 3:3....Ye must be born Again...Jew and Gentile...Born Again of the Holy Spirit...
This is a mystery....We are all made One in Jesus by the Spirit.
20...And are Built upon the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets...Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Corner Stone.
21..In whom are the building fitly framed together groweth unto An HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD:
22...IN WHOM YE ALSO ARE BUILDED TOGETHER FOR an habitation of God through the Spirit...
OUR BODIES ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD
HE HAS MADE BOTH one In Jesus...

BUT..iN THESE LAST DAYS.....GOD IS DOING A SHORT WORK WITH ISRAEL...
Read Romans 9: Paul writes about this mistery....God is dong a short work this is also the sign of the end.
(Romans 9:25...read the whole chapter....
This is the Short work... The Jews returning to Jerusalem a short work also World Judgment begins at Jerusalem...
This is the Generation that shall not pass away until all is fulfilled....World Judgment begins at Jerusalem....

Mrs. B

[benny balerio]

Restraining Sudden Destruction...

Benny.....most of what you are saying...I agree...
BUt....
you must understand.....Israel is Now the Church.....we are Spiritual Israel..
Notice...Epheians 3:1...(Gentiles are fellowheirs with Israel...)
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles...

Eph 2:4...But God, who is rich in Mercy, for His Great Love wherewith he Loved us,
5...Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us TOGETHER with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6...And hath raised us up TOGETHER, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

talking about the gentiles, and Jews he has made both one by the Spirit....not the flesh.
2:14....For he is our peace, WHO Hath Made BOTH ONE, And hath Broken Down the Middle Wall of Partition between us;
15...Having Abolished in His Flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make himself of Twain ONE NEW MAN, So making PEACE;
16...And that he might Reconcile BOTH UNTO GOD IN ONE BODY BY THE CROSS, Having Slain the Enmity thereby:
17...And Came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh...
Now notice
18....For through HIM We BOTH have Access By One Spirit unto the Father.
19....Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the Household of God;.....Paul was writting to the Ephesians, Gentile Believers this is a mystery revealed that God has made both the Jew and the Gentile one.
( God Has Made both Jew and Gentile One, by the Holy Spirit...the New Birth...A Spiritual Birth)
That is why Jesus taught in John 3:3....Ye must be born Again...Jew and Gentile...Born Again of the Holy Spirit...
This is a mystery....We are all made One in Jesus by the Spirit.
20...And are Built upon the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets...Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Corner Stone.
21..In whom are the building fitly framed together groweth unto An HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD:
22...IN WHOM YE ALSO ARE BUILDED TOGETHER FOR an habitation of God through the Spirit...
OUR BODIES ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD
HE HAS MADE BOTH one In Jesus...

BUT..iN THESE LAST DAYS.....GOD IS DOING A SHORT WORK WITH ISRAEL...
Read Romans 9: Paul writes about this mistery....God is dong a short work this is also the sign of the end.
(Romans 9:25...read the whole chapter....
This is the Short work... The Jews returning to Jerusalem a short work also World Judgment begins at Jerusalem...
This is the Generation that shall not pass away until all is fulfilled....World Judgment begins at Jerusalem....

Mrs. B

Mrs.B.....I pray that this is a misunderstanding on my part,..I hope and pray that you are not attempting to push .."REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY"

Replacement Theology: a theological perspective that teaches that the Jews have been rejected by God and are no longer God' s Chosen People. Those who hold to this view disavow any ethnic future for the Jewish people in connection with the biblical covenants, believing that their spiritual destiny is either to perish or become a part of the new religion that superseded Judaism (whether Christianity or Islam).


Perhaps the last definition provides some insight into what an American Muslim and American Christian have in common. They both believe that Israel is permanently replaced by the church and that the church is the Israel of God from Galatians 6:16.

Replacement theology is not from God, and has a smell of anti semitism.
Replacement theology and post trib theory always go hand in hand.

[Mrs. B]

Restraining Sudden Destruction....

Benny....
Before you jump to conclusions...
Read it again......slow and again see what Paul is Writing to the Gentile Christians

Jesus was born out of the tribe of Juda....this was foretold....
The other ten tribes have been absorved into the peoples of the world..
But...the Jews are a living testimoney to the Promise of God...That out of Juda would come the Savior...
and Jesus came and fulfilled all the prophies that fore tell of His coming through the Tribe of Juda..

Read in John.....He came unto His own and they received Him Not but to as many as received Him...To them gave He Power to become
the sons of God.....
The New Birth,.......Adam brought death, eternal death BUT God made a Promise.....a SEED
Jesus is the Seed born of a virgin......
He never sin...so death had no power over him..
So death could not hold him in the grave......three days He Arose...Promising us who believe and are born again. born of the Spirit....we shall never die that is Jew and Gentile.....This Gospel goes to the whole world...
Paul Writes.....read it again....in Ephesian.
That the Promise is to all who believe

The Promise of Life Eternal.... is to the Jew first Jesus said Then into the whole world.... and to the Gentile
This Gospel or Good News is to Every man Jew and Gentile
Jesus has Only One Body.......One Spirit and that is the Church
The Church or Born Again Believers are Gods People....

The Jew is a Witness that God's Promise has been fulfilled.They are given a second chance as in this endtime
God is doing a Short Work...This is again A Witness to the whole world that God is God...
Many of the Jews are Saved in this last generation......Because God Promise the Fathers....Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the fathers.......and God is Faithful...

Pray about this and Read it again....and Ask Jesus to show you the Truth of this...It is Written
Only with this understanding can we see the Truth of the End...God Gives the Jews another Witness....by miriculous returning to the land of Israel.....Because God Promised and God is Faithful...This is also a witness to the whold world.....
Judgment begins at Jerusalem, World Judgment and the Jews as a Witness.

Mrs. B

[benny balerio]

Restraining Sudden Destruction....

Benny....
Before you jump to conclusions...
Read it again......slow and again see what Paul is Writing to the Gentile Christians

Jesus was born out of the tribe of Juda....this was foretold....
The other ten tribes have been absorved into the peoples of the world..
But...the Jews are a living testimoney to the Promise of God...That out of Juda would come the Savior...
and Jesus came and fulfilled all the prophies that fore tell of His coming through the Tribe of Juda..

Read in John.....He came unto His own and they received Him Not but to as many as received Him...To them gave He Power to become
the sons of God.....
The New Birth,.......Adam brought death, eternal death BUT God made a Promise.....a SEED
Jesus is the Seed born of a virgin......
He never sin...so death had no power over him..
So death could not hold him in the grave......three days He Arose...Promising us who believe and are born again. born of the Spirit....we shall never die that is Jew and Gentile.....This Gospel goes to the whole world...
Paul Writes.....read it again....in Ephesian.
That the Promise is to all who believe

The Promise of Life Eternal.... is to the Jew first Jesus said Then into the whole world.... and to the Gentile
This Gospel or Good News is to Every man Jew and Gentile
Jesus has Only One Body.......One Spirit and that is the Church
The Church or Born Again Believers are Gods People....

The Jew is a Witness that God's Promise has been fulfilled.They are given a second chance as in this endtime
God is doing a Short Work...This is again A Witness to the whole world that God is God...
Many of the Jews are Saved in this last generation......Because God Promise the Fathers....Abraham, Isaac and Jacob the fathers.......and God is Faithful...

Pray about this and Read it again....and Ask Jesus to show you the Truth of this...It is Written
Only with this understanding can we see the Truth of the End...God Gives the Jews another Witness....by miriculous returning to the land of Israel.....Because God Promised and God is Faithful...This is also a witness to the whold world.....
Judgment begins at Jerusalem, World Judgment and the Jews as a Witness.

Mrs. B

The inheritance that the Bride has received is spiritual,....and the Bride has not been promised the physical,...that is those things such as the land of Israel.
This is promised exclusively for the Jewish race.

Ezekiel 37;
24“‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

[rizen]

Benny,

The marrying and giving in marriage and drinking,....is a sign of everyday normal life,....this scenario cannot be placed into the time era of the bowl judgements just prior to the physical return of our Lord at Armageddon.

Precisely. Therefore Terry James is correct in his understanding that Matthew 24 includes the church. Thank you for acknowledging how Thomas Ice is incorrect in his assumption that Matthew 24-25 exclusively deals with Israel.

But it can also be seen as a thief in the night message,...such as the 10 bridesmaids parable

I think you mean the parable of the ten virgins. A virgin, by definition, is a marriageable bride and not a "bridesmaid" as some pretribulationists assert. The parable of ten virgins applies to the same audience Terry James describes in his article concerning the Rapture of the Church in Matthew 24:37-39.

"That first phase of His return will be at the Rapture of His church–not at His Second Advent (Revelation 19:11). We can know that is true, because at the time of His Second Coming at Armageddon, it will not be business as usual. The earth will be almost completely destroyed, and nearly three-fourths of mankind will have been killed by that time."

The parable of ten virgins also deals with the church. This parable draws on the Song of Solomon chapters 3 and 5. In Sol. 3:1-4 we read of a bride who is eagerly awaiting her bridegroom and is taken (Sol. 3:4). In chapter 5 we read of a bride who is more concerned with herself (Sol. 5:3) than her bridegroom and is sadly left behind (Sol. 5:6). This is what it will be like when Jesus comes to Rapture the church.

Without this manner of faith during the Great Tribulation,...one,... will not have enough oil in their lamps (The influence of the Holy Spirit)in their lives when the Lord returns,..in which would become evident at the sheep and goat judgement that occurs just prior to the beginning of the millennium.

The oil in the lamp represents understanding. The wise virgins had it based on a kosher understanding of God's word concerning the last days. The wise virgins watched and prayed everyday to be counted worthy to escape the Great Tribulation before it began (Luke 21:36). As a result of watching and praying before the Great Tribulation began, God revealed to them (via the Holy Spirit) certain things that he didn't everyone else in the Church. This includes, but is not exclusive to, the identity of the False Prophet and Antichrist, the wolves in sheep's clothing, and foolish virgins among us. As a result of watching and praying, the wise virgins were prepared ahead of time and knew what "to do and not to do" when the Great Tribulation began. The foolish virgins were not prepared and were counted among the transgressors (Matt. 25:9) outlined in Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-29. Notice how the wise virgins tell the foolish to go to them who "buy and sell" (Matt. 25:9). The wise virgins will be able to identify the foolish by their fruit or lack therof (Matt. 7:17-19). The foolish virgins will be among the "buyers and sellers" and those who are consumed with the cares of this life (Luke 17:26-29; Sol. 5:3).

The only difference between the parable of ten virgins and the sheep/goats judgement is the parable of the sheep/goats begins at Christ coming to rapture His Church. In Matthew 25:31 we see Jesus together with His holy (hagios) angels (aggelos). These angels will separate the righteous saints from the wicked (Matt. 13:30,41,49) and take the righteous saints from earth to heaven (Mar. 13:27; Matt. 24:31) before the wrath of God.

The Unbeliver obviously will not know, nor will he be aware of the signs of our returning Lord,until it is too late.

The Olivet Discourse was written exclusively to Christians. Non-Christians don't read the New Testament, so it goes without saying that the "unbeliever" won't be aware of the signs of Christ's return. The passage in Matthew 24:16 concerning "those in Judea" is addressing Christians in Judea. They do exist, you know.

[Exit40]

Regarding the falling away, rebellion, or what ever translation is being used, I wonder if the following could be describing such an event....

2Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... i&c=4&v=1#

Doesn't this seem applicable today ?

God Bless

David

[Jay Ross]

Regarding the falling away, rebellion, or what ever translation is being used, I wonder if the following could be describing such an event....

2Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... i&c=4&v=1#

Doesn't this seem applicable today ?

God Bless

David

Yes, and it has been applicable from around 1070 CE where the field has also grown thistles and weeds which continues to choked the word of God stop it from growing because the people have allowed the cares of the world to overcome them. Jesus warned about this in his parable of the Sower.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[benny balerio]

Benny,

The marrying and giving in marriage and drinking,....is a sign of everyday normal life,....this scenario cannot be placed into the time era of the bowl judgements just prior to the physical return of our Lord at Armageddon.

Precisely. Therefore Terry James is correct in his understanding that Matthew 24 includes the church. Thank you for acknowledging how Thomas Ice is incorrect in his assumption that Matthew 24-25 exclusively deals with Israel.

But it can also be seen as a thief in the night message,...such as the 10 bridesmaids parable

I think you mean the parable of the ten virgins. A virgin, by definition, is a marriageable bride and not a "bridesmaid" as some pretribulationists assert. The parable of ten virgins applies to the same audience Terry James describes in his article concerning the Rapture of the Church in Matthew 24:37-39.

"That first phase of His return will be at the Rapture of His church–not at His Second Advent (Revelation 19:11). We can know that is true, because at the time of His Second Coming at Armageddon, it will not be business as usual. The earth will be almost completely destroyed, and nearly three-fourths of mankind will have been killed by that time."

The parable of ten virgins also deals with the church. This parable draws on the Song of Solomon chapters 3 and 5. In Sol. 3:1-4 we read of a bride who is eagerly awaiting her bridegroom and is taken (Sol. 3:4). In chapter 5 we read of a bride who is more concerned with herself (Sol. 5:3) than her bridegroom and is sadly left behind (Sol. 5:6). This is what it will be like when Jesus comes to Rapture the church.

Without this manner of faith during the Great Tribulation,...one,... will not have enough oil in their lamps (The influence of the Holy Spirit)in their lives when the Lord returns,..in which would become evident at the sheep and goat judgement that occurs just prior to the beginning of the millennium.

The oil in the lamp represents understanding. The wise virgins had it based on a kosher understanding of God's word concerning the last days. The wise virgins watched and prayed everyday to be counted worthy to escape the Great Tribulation before it began (Luke 21:36). As a result of watching and praying before the Great Tribulation began, God revealed to them (via the Holy Spirit) certain things that he didn't everyone else in the Church. This includes, but is not exclusive to, the identity of the False Prophet and Antichrist, the wolves in sheep's clothing, and foolish virgins among us. As a result of watching and praying, the wise virgins were prepared ahead of time and knew what "to do and not to do" when the Great Tribulation began. The foolish virgins were not prepared and were counted among the transgressors (Matt. 25:9) outlined in Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-29. Notice how the wise virgins tell the foolish to go to them who "buy and sell" (Matt. 25:9). The wise virgins will be able to identify the foolish by their fruit or lack therof (Matt. 7:17-19). The foolish virgins will be among the "buyers and sellers" and those who are consumed with the cares of this life (Luke 17:26-29; Sol. 5:3).

The only difference between the parable of ten virgins and the sheep/goats judgement is the parable of the sheep/goats begins at Christ coming to rapture His Church. In Matthew 25:31 we see Jesus together with His holy (hagios) angels (aggelos). These angels will separate the righteous saints from the wicked (Matt. 13:30,41,49) and take the righteous saints from earth to heaven (Mar. 13:27; Matt. 24:31) before the wrath of God.

The Unbeliver obviously will not know, nor will he be aware of the signs of our returning Lord,until it is too late.

The Olivet Discourse was written exclusively to Christians. Non-Christians don't read the New Testament, so it goes without saying that the "unbeliever" won't be aware of the signs of Christ's return. The passage in Matthew 24:16 concerning "those in Judea" is addressing Christians in Judea. They do exist, you know.

Good morning,
Hope everyone has had a blessed weekend.
Well,...it is obvious that you are attempting to twist truth in that it would favor a pre-wrath position.

You Quote:
I think you mean the parable of the ten virgins. A virgin, by definition, is a marriageable bride and not a "bridesmaid" as some pretribulationists assert. The parable of ten virgins applies to the same audience Terry James describes in his article concerning the Rapture of the Church in Matthew 24:37-39.

"That first phase of His return will be at the Rapture of His church–not at His Second Advent (Revelation 19:11). We can know that is true, because at the time of His Second Coming at Armageddon, it will not be business as usual. The earth will be almost completely destroyed, and nearly three-fourths of mankind will have been killed by that time."

The parable of ten virgins also deals with the church. This parable draws on the Song of Solomon chapters 3 and 5. In Sol. 3:1-4 we read of a bride who is eagerly awaiting her bridegroom and is taken (Sol. 3:4). In chapter 5 we read of a bride who is more concerned with herself (Sol. 5:3) than her bridegroom and is sadly left behind (Sol. 5:6). This is what it will be like when Jesus comes to Rapture the church.

My Reply:
The parable does not deal with the church at all.
First of all,.....either one is saved (Sealed by the Holy Spirit)therefore is of the ONE BODY OF CHRIST JESUS,..or is not saved at all.
There is one bride and not 10 bridesmaids (virgins)

You Quote:
Without this manner of faith during the Great Tribulation,...one,... will not have enough oil in their lamps (The influence of the Holy Spirit)in their lives when the Lord returns,..in which would become evident at the sheep and goat judgement that occurs just prior to the beginning of the millennium.[/quote]

The oil in the lamp represents understanding. The wise virgins had it based on a kosher understanding of God's word concerning the last days. The wise virgins watched and prayed everyday to be counted worthy to escape the Great Tribulation before it began (Luke 21:36). As a result of watching and praying before the Great Tribulation began, God revealed to them (via the Holy Spirit) certain things that he didn't everyone else in the Church. This includes, but is not exclusive to, the identity of the False Prophet and Antichrist, the wolves in sheep's clothing, and foolish virgins among us. As a result of watching and praying, the wise virgins were prepared ahead of time and knew what "to do and not to do" when the Great Tribulation began. The foolish virgins were not prepared and were counted among the transgressors (Matt. 25:9) outlined in Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-29. Notice how the wise virgins tell the foolish to go to them who "buy and sell" (Matt. 25:9). The wise virgins will be able to identify the foolish by their fruit or lack therof (Matt. 7:17-19). The foolish virgins will be among the "buyers and sellers" and those who are consumed with the cares of this life (Luke 17:26-29; Sol. 5:3).

My Reply:
The Holy Spirit is represented by the oil in the lamps.
These 10 bridesmaids are all described as ..."Bridesmaids".....5 were obviously did not hold our Lord Jesus close to their heart,...and were into the world more so, than providing evidence of their faith by works.
'My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 24:45-51)

It is obvious that these 5 bridesmaids are not sealed by the Holy Spirit the moment they first believed ,...thereby being sealed by promise unto the day of redemption.
Again,...The Lord said that He would never leave nor forsake us,...so it is very obvious that these ten brides maids are not the Church,...but are Tribulation survivors,..5 who were refused entry into the millennium.

You Quote:
The only difference between the parable of ten virgins and the sheep/goats judgement is the parable of the sheep/goats begins at Christ coming to rapture His Church. In Matthew 25:31 we see Jesus together with His holy (hagios) angels (aggelos). These angels will separate the righteous saints from the wicked (Matt. 13:30,41,49) and take the righteous saints from earth to heaven (Mar. 13:27; Matt. 24:31) before the wrath of God.

My Reply:
No Rizen,
The difference is today we are saved by grace,..and it is very obvious that the goats in the sheep and goat judgement are not saved by grace and that their destiny was decided upon their works of faith.
Matthew 25;
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[benny balerio]

Regarding the falling away, rebellion, or what ever translation is being used, I wonder if the following could be describing such an event....

2Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... i&c=4&v=1#

Doesn't this seem applicable today ?

God Bless

David

These are not the bride.

[Exit40]

These are not the bride.

That's my point.

God Bless You

David

[Exit40]

These are not the bride.

That's my point.

God Bless You

David

So who are they then ? It seems to me that verse is speaking about the apostasy, the falling away from the Truth, in pursuit of their own lusts, heaping teachers that tickle their ears. They here what they want to hear and pursue it. And at one point they must have held to the Truth, or they could not turn from it. Nominal Christains, name onlies, fallen from Grace. Do they lose their salvation from this act, or did they never have it.

What say you ?

God Bless

David

[benny balerio]

These are not the bride.

That's my point.

God Bless You

David

So who are they then ? It seems to me that verse is speaking about the apostasy, the falling away from the Truth, in pursuit of their own lusts, heaping teachers that tickle their ears. They here what they want to hear and pursue it. And at one point they must have held to the Truth, or they could not turn from it. Nominal Christains, name onlies, fallen from Grace. Do they lose their salvation from this act, or did they never have it.

What say you ?

God Bless

David

The devils believe that Jesus is Lord and they tremble.

You Quote:
So who are they then ? It seems to me that verse is speaking about the apostasy, the falling away from the Truth, in pursuit of their own lusts, heaping teachers that tickle their ears. They here what they want to hear and pursue it. And at one point they must have held to the Truth, or they could not turn from it. Nominal Christains, name onlies, fallen from Grace. Do they lose their salvation from this act, or did they never have it.

My Reply:
2 Timothy 4;3....is not at all mentioning a "Apostasy or falling away as you inquire.
I know of a woman who believes that Jesus is the Son of God,...but she has no interest in obeying the Laws of God,..but desires to live in the world.
And yet there are those who have hated the Lord,........and they believe that mankind's creation was by accident.
These and others alike, do not want to have to answer to a Creator,..and do not want anything that will cause guilt for thier lives.
Today, we see persecution against the christian and Jews in this world,..and it will continue until they decide to destroy anything that resembles our God.

Rather than come into the light of Truth,..these people,...will only listen to teachers of the new agers,..cults,....or anything that does not limit thier immoral lifesyle.

God Bless you David

[Exit40]

The devils believe that Jesus is Lord and they tremble.

You Quote:
So who are they then ? It seems to me that verse is speaking about the apostasy, the falling away from the Truth, in pursuit of their own lusts, heaping teachers that tickle their ears. They here what they want to hear and pursue it. And at one point they must have held to the Truth, or they could not turn from it. Nominal Christains, name onlies, fallen from Grace. Do they lose their salvation from this act, or did they never have it.

My Reply:
2 Timothy 4;3....is not at all mentioning a "Apostasy or falling away as you inquire.
I know of a woman who believes that Jesus is the Son of God,...but she has no interest in obeying the Laws of God,..but desires to live in the world.
And yet there are those who have hated the Lord,........and they believe that mankind's creation was by accident.
These and others alike, do not want to have to answer to a Creator,..and do not want anything that will cause guilt for thier lives.
Today, we see persecution against the christian and Jews in this world,..and it will continue until they decide to destroy anything that resembles our God.

Rather than come into the light of Truth,..these people,...will only listen to teachers of the new agers,..cults,....or anything that does not limit thier immoral lifesyle.

God Bless you David

Hi Benny. It's not that they refuse to come to the Light, or Truth. It's that they no longer endure the sound doctrine of it, and turn their ears away from the Truth. Sounds like they previously did hold to sound doctrine and for whatever reason, and we can imagine many, they turn away and listen to false teachers of The Word. The wording of the verse indicates that a turning away from Truth unto fables is a voluntary choice to pursue after their own lusts. They heap to themselves false teachers of Christianity, false doctrine, perhaps even a false Gospel, and seek fables which are the beliefs of the unsaved gentiles and inventions of the Jews introduced to them as true doctrine. The Greek wording confirms this. They fall away from the Truth, they become apostatized. While the verse does not say explicitly this is the apostasy it certainly is a fore runner to it. These Christian believers are the ones subject to the great delusion. This is my understanding.

God Bless You

David

[benny balerio]

The devils believe that Jesus is Lord and they tremble.

You Quote:
So who are they then ? It seems to me that verse is speaking about the apostasy, the falling away from the Truth, in pursuit of their own lusts, heaping teachers that tickle their ears. They here what they want to hear and pursue it. And at one point they must have held to the Truth, or they could not turn from it. Nominal Christains, name onlies, fallen from Grace. Do they lose their salvation from this act, or did they never have it.

My Reply:
2 Timothy 4;3....is not at all mentioning a "Apostasy or falling away as you inquire.
I know of a woman who believes that Jesus is the Son of God,...but she has no interest in obeying the Laws of God,..but desires to live in the world.
And yet there are those who have hated the Lord,........and they believe that mankind's creation was by accident.
These and others alike, do not want to have to answer to a Creator,..and do not want anything that will cause guilt for thier lives.
Today, we see persecution against the christian and Jews in this world,..and it will continue until they decide to destroy anything that resembles our God.

Rather than come into the light of Truth,..these people,...will only listen to teachers of the new agers,..cults,....or anything that does not limit thier immoral lifesyle.

God Bless you David

Hi Benny. It's not that they refuse to come to the Light, or Truth. It's that they no longer endure the sound doctrine of it, and turn their ears away from the Truth. Sounds like they previously did hold to sound doctrine and for whatever reason, and we can imagine many, they turn away and listen to false teachers of The Word. The wording of the verse indicates that a turning away from Truth unto fables is a voluntary choice to pursue after their own lusts. They heap to themselves false teachers of Christianity, false doctrine, perhaps even a false Gospel, and seek fables which are the beliefs of the unsaved gentiles and inventions of the Jews introduced to them as true doctrine. The Greek wording confirms this. They fall away from the Truth, they become apostatized. While the verse does not say explicitly this is the apostasy it certainly is a fore runner to it. These Christian believers are the ones subject to the great delusion. This is my understanding.

God Bless You

David

When they will not endure sound doctrine; the Gospel which contains the wholesome words of Christ, and is sound itself, having no corruption in it, and salutary in its effects to the souls of men; and yet such is the depravity of some men, both in principles and practice, that they cannot receive it, nor bear to hear it, turn their backs on it, express their indignation at it, and treat it not only with neglect, but with ridicule and contempt:

David,.....we are both looking for the truth.
The first question we must ask,..."once saved,..can one by free will lose their salvation......The answer is no.
So what does this leave us?
Lets take for instance...the prosperity gospel,...you and I both know that it is not the truth.
But yet we find some preachers teaching it.....does this mean that they will lose their salvation for teaching something that is false?....the answer is no.

I look forward to your reply,..in that you or others can expand on this topic.

[Exit40]

Hi Benny. we're going way off topic if we go OSAS in the discussion. Perhaps a new thread on this will draw some debate.

God Bless You Brother

David

[benny balerio]

Hi Benny. we're going way off topic if we go OSAS in the discussion. Perhaps a new thread on this will draw some debate.

God Bless You Brother

David

I agree....we can debate the osas in the following link if you like:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=35687&p=540186#p540186

God Bless