Where do you stand, Dispensational or Covenantal

[jgilberAZ]

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http://www.faithbibleonline.net/MiscDoc ... ispCov.htm

DISPENSATIONALISM AND COVENANT THEOLOGY

The following are the major differences between these two systems of theology. They represent the mainstreams of both systems, though there are variations in each. Representative systematic theologies are those of L.S. Chafer and Charles Hodge.

DISPENSATIONALISM

1. May be Arminian or modified Calvinist. Almost never 5-point Calvinist.
2. Stresses 'literal' interpretation of the Bible.
3. Usually does not accept the idea of the 'Analogy of Faith.'
4. 'Israel' always means only the literal, physical descendants of Jacob.
5. 'Israel of God' in Gal. 6:16 means physical Israel alone.
6. God has 2 peoples with 2 separate destinies: Israel (earthly) and the Church (heavenly).
7. The Church was born at Pentecost.
8. The Church was not prophesied as such in the O.T. but was a hidden mystery until the N.T.
9. All O.T. prophecies for 'Israel' are for literal Israel, not the Church.'
10. God's main purpose in history is literal Israel.
11. The Church is a parenthesis in God's program for the ages.
12. The main heir to Abraham's covenant was Isaac and literal Israel.
13. There was no eternal Covenant of Redemption within the Trinity.
14. There was no Covenant of Works with Adam in the Garden of Eden.
15. There was no Covenant of Grace concerning Adam.
16. Israel was rash to accept the Covenant at Mt. Sinai.
17. The 'New Covenant' of Jer. 31:31- 34 is only for literal Israel and is not the New Covenant of Lk.22:20.
18. God's program in history is mainly through separate dispensations.
19. Some Dispensationalists have said that O. T. sinners were saved by works.
20. Most Dispensationalists teach that men in the O.T. were saved by faith in a revelation peculiar to their dispensation, but this did not include faith in the Messiah as their sin-bearer.
21. The O.T. sacrifices were not recognized as the Gospel or types of the Messiah as sin-bearer, but only seen as such in retrospect.
22. The Holy Spirit indwells only believers in the dispensation of Grace, not O.T. and not after the Rapture.
23. Jesus.made an offer of the literal Kingdom to Israel; since Israel rejected it, it is postponed.
24. O.T. believers were not in Christ, not part of the Body or Bride of Christ.
25. The Law has been abolished.
26. O. T. laws are no longer in effect unless repeated in the N.T.
27. The Millenium is the Kingdom of God. Dispensationalists are always Pre-Millenial and usually Pre-Tribulational.
28. The O.T. animal sacrifices will be restored in the Millenium.
29. The Millenium will fulfill the Covenant to Abraham. Israel has a future.
30. David will sit on the Millenial throne in Jerusalem.

COVENANT THEOLOGY

1.Always Calvinist. Usually 5-point.
2.Accepts both literal and figurative interpretation of the Bible.
3. Almost always accepts the idea of The ‘Analogy of Faith.’
4. ‘Israel’ may mean either literal, physicaldescendants of Jacob or the figurative, spiritual Israel, depending on context.
5. ‘Israel of God’ in Gal. 6:16 means spiritual Israel, parallel to Gal. 3:29; Rom. 2:28029, 9:6; Phil. 3:3.
6. God has always had only 1 people, the Church gradually developed.
7. The Church began in O. T. (Acts 7:38) and reached fulfillment in the N. T.
8. There are many O. T. prophecies of the N. T. Church.
9. Some O. T. prophecies are for literal Israel, others are for spiritual Israel.
10. God’s main purpose in history is Christand secondarily the Church.
11. The Church is the culmination of God’s saving purpose for the ages.
12. The main heir to Abraham’s covenantand was Christ and spiritual Israel.
13. The eternal Covenant of Redemption was within the Trinity to effect election.
14. God made a conditional Covenant of Works with Adam as representative forall his posterity.
15. God made a Covenant of Grace with Christ and His people, including Adam.
16. Israel was right to accept the Covenant Mt. Sinai.
17. The ‘New Covenant’ of Jer. 31 is the same as in Lk. 22; both are for spiritual Israel according to Heb. 8.
18. God’s program in history is mainly through related covenants.
19. No man has ever been saved by works, but only by grace.
20. All men who have ever been saved have been saved by faith in Christ as their sin-bearer, which has been progressively revealed in every age.
21. O. T. believers believed in the Gospel of Messiah as sin-bearer mainly by the sacrifices as types and prophecies.
22. The Holy Spirit has indwelt believers in all ages, especially in the present N. T. era, and will not be withdrawn.
23. Jesus made only an offer of the spiritual Kingdom, which was rejected by literal Israel but has gradually been accepted by spiritual Israel.
24. Believers in all ages are all ‘in Christ’ and part of the Body and Bride of Christ.
25. The Law has 3 uses: to restrain sin in society, to lead to Christ, and to instruct Christians in godliness. The ceremonial Laws have been abolished; the civil laws have been abolished except for their general equity; the moral laws continue.
26. O. T. laws are still in effect unless abrogated in the N.T.
27. The Church is the Kingdom of God. Covenanters are usually Amillenial, sometimes Pre-Millenial or Post-Millenial, rarely Pre-Tribulational.
28. The O. T. sacrifices were fulfilled and forever abolished in Christ.
29. Christ fulfilled the Covenant to Abraham. Some Covenanters believe in a future forliteral Israel, most don’t.
30. Christ alone sits on the throne. Saints rule under Him.

[mark s]

Interesting lists. It's hard to imagine where they come up with some of this stuff, on either side of the coin!

Obviously written by a "covenantal".

As for my answer to the survey, I can't really agree with either of the lists, and I feel like any answer I give will misrepresent me.



All I can say is that God has made various covenants throughout the dispensations . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

I saw I term I didn't know, so I looked it up. This is what I found:

16. What does the term “analogy of faith mean?

The “analogy of faith” is a reformed hermeneutical principle which states that, since all scriptures are harmoniously united with no essential contradictions, therefore, every proposed interpretation of any passage must be compared with what the other parts of the bible teach. In other words, the “faith,” or body of doctrine, which the scriptures as a whole proclaim will not be contradicted in any way by any passage. Therefore, if two or three different interpretations of a verse are equally possible, any interpretation that contradicts the clear teaching of any other scriptures must be ruled out from the beginning.

Another related principle, that is very helpful in interpreting prophecy and apocalyptic literature in particular, is that the clear must interpret the unclear. In other words, a very specific interpretation of the highly symbolic visions of John's apocalypse, for example, may never “trump” the clear teachings of Paul's epistles, which are more didactic and less symbolic, and hence more clear.

Monergism Copyright © 2008

Since the is from the Monergism website, this is a "Reformed" source, and fits well with this presentation of a "Covenantal" aspect.

But is it really true that if I label myself as Dispensational, that I don't think we should interpret less clear portions of Scripture by the more clear? That if a passage is less specific, I don't want to use the more specific as a guide?

Seriously?

What does that have to do with whether someone recognizes the dispensational aspects of history?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

Herb said that while he was brought up as a strict dispensationalist, he believed this:

.... there are many areas where I agree with dispensationalism. But, as I said before, there are some areas where I disagree.

He elaborates where the differences lie at the link.

I like Mark's answer...

All I can say is that God has made various covenants throughout the dispensations . . .

[Mrs. B]

Where do you stand, Dispensational or Covenantal.....

I stand for the Written Word......
Not some man's Interpertation or Ideas.
God has give The Church His Holy Spirit and The Holy Spirit give us the Believers the True Meaning of all that is Written....Becasue He, The Spirit and the Word Agree
Let all things be established by Two or Three Witnesses.

We must Believe what is Written....even if you do not understand it at the time...If you ask Jesus His Spirit will give you understanding.......The Body of Christ is ONE.

Mrs. B

[jgilberAZ]

I saw I term I didn't know, so I looked it up. This is what I found:

16. What does the term “analogy of faith mean?

[snip]

But is it really true that if I label myself as Dispensational, that I don't think we should interpret less clear portions of Scripture by the more clear? That if a passage is less specific, I don't want to use the more specific as a guide?

Seriously?

What does that have to do with whether someone recognizes the dispensational aspects of history?

I honestly didn't understand the difference, either, so I googled it. It took me a couple sites before I understood where that was coming from:

http://tdmitchell.wordpress.com/2011/02 ... ans-to-us/

I kept reading, and reading, and saying to myself "and, what's the difference?"

Here it is, near the end of the linked article, above:

The CT (covenant theologian) will cross reference and show you in the OT and NT that the body of Christ began with the progress of redemption through the patriarchs. They hold to the covenants of grace and trace them quite simply to the fulfillment of Promise, the Messiah. It is very straightforward. The Dispensationalist refutes the progress of redemption via the covenants of God and will tell you that the church began at Pentecost.

AND ..

While the Dispensationalists will also espouse the inerrancy of God’s Word, they depart on God’s program and dissect the covenants thereby proposing there is a separate program for national Israel which, however, does not directly align with Scripture. Where do I see the fallout? The Branch Prophecies. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Branch prophecies. He is the true vine. We are the branches. The Gentiles were grafted into the Promise and here is where the Dispensationalist position departs from the Analogy of Faith. Meanwhile, they maintain they have not departed from Scripture but I believe they have misinterpreted God’s Word here.

Your mileage may vary but to date this is where I have found the greatest difference lies in these two theological systems.

Who is Israel?

Who are Abraham’s descendents?

This is where the road divides. So, is God a covenantal Father or does He dispense love and wrath based on the current ‘dispensation’ or ‘era’ in which we live? Is he the Christ of Hebrews 13:8 or does He change as Dispensationalism implies that He does?

[mark s]

And, so, they then make the same old accusations . . . "you don't interpret Scripture by Scripture".

>sigh<

[AndCanItBe]

Labels are so subjective, and even more so on FP, I think. This site has always been heavily traveled by people who don't fit in a box.

I'm mostly Covenental and until I came to this site I thought everyone who was a dispensationalist believed that the Jews didn't have to come to Christ, they had a separate covenant and could be saved by the law. I thought this had to be the logical end of dispensationalist thinking because this is what the loudest dispensationalists believe. In my experience here, I see that someone who is dispensationalist doesn't have to fall off that edge. I imagine many people haven't. They should come to FP.

[jgilberAZ]

And, so, they then make the same old accusations . . . "you don't interpret Scripture by Scripture".

>sigh<

Agreed. The accusation often goes both ways, neither justifiably so, IMHO.

[jgilberAZ]

I think the main question is this ... is God a God of covenants, or a God of dispensations?

When I read scripture, I see a God who reveals himself and his plans for man through covenants.

This, then, plays itself out in other ways.

Is there a dispensation for the Jews (Old Covenant) and one for the church (New Covenant)?

Or, is there a gradual revelation of God's plan in the covenants that applied, and continue to apply, to Jew and Gentile alike?

Your view on dispensations vs. covenants affects your whole view of scripture.

[jgilberAZ]

I am about to become a member of a Reformed Baptist church.

I agree with the following:

http://www.prbctoledo.org/beliefs/convictions/

The five points of Reformed Baptist Churches
A brief out-line of our distinctive convictions


I REFORMATIONAL
A. Sola Scriptura
B. Solus Christus
C. Sola Gratia
D. Sola Fide
E. Soli Deo Gloria

The Bible is the complete, closed and clear authority in all matters of faith.
Our confidence is in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
Grace secured redemption without reference to works.
We are declared righteous by God through faith alone (1).
Goal of creation and redemption is God‘s praise.


II CALVINISTIC
A. Total Depravity
B. Unconditional Election
C. Limited Atonement
D. Irresistible Grace
E. Perseverance of the Saints

The fall of Adam affected the totality of man’s person (2).
Election is not based on foreseen faith or works (3).
Redemption was accomplished by Christ for elect (4) .
Regeneration by the Holy Spirit is efficacious for elect.
God will, by grace, complete what He began in regeneration of the elect.


III PURITAN
A. Godliness in Worship
B. Godliness in Preaching
C. Godliness in Instruction
D. Godliness in Family
E. Godliness in Behavior

Regulative Principle of Worship(5), the Lord’s Day as a Christian Sabbath.
Primacy of preaching. Both exposition and application emphasized.
Confessional and catholic. Publishing what we believe the Bible teaches (6).
Parents are to instruct (catechize) and discipline their children in the Lord.
Maintaining a good conscience before God and man.


IV COVENANTAL
A. Unity of the Bible
B. Christ-centered interpretation
C. Law / Gospel distinction
D. One way of salvation
E. Optimistic view of history

Many parts yet one message.
Jesus’ person, work and kingdom is the theme of the Bible.
Law (7) commands and condemns. Gospel saves (8).
Christ has saved all the elect throughout all the ages.
Jesus Christ is now King ruling over all. He will soon come again.


V BAPTIST
A. Biblical Church Practice
B. Biblical Church Freedom
C. Biblical Church Government
D. Biblical Church Growth
E. Biblical Church Ministry

Ordinances for believers only (9). Church discipline lovingly exercised.
The state is not to intrude into matters of conscience.
Elders and deacons. The local congregation chooses its leaders (10).
Gospel proclamation to the world. Repentance and Faith demanded of all.
Priesthood of all believers (11).

-------------

(1) This is an imputed alien righteousness. Justification is perfect, neither waxing nor waning.
(2) We agree with Martin Luther that man‘s “will comes from the devil and from Adam.”
(3) A Calvinistic understanding of Salvation: We reject all man centered understanding of salvation.
“She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” Matt. 1:21 cf. John 10:11,14-18,24-29; Acts 20:28; Isa. 53
(5) As opposed to the “Normative principle” which states that what is not forbidden is allowed. Our worship service is built around the Scriptures read, preached and sang.
(6) We hold to the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689. Additionally the Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian and Chalcedonian creeds express our understanding of orthodoxy.
(7) We recognize the “Three uses of the law.” First, the law serves as a guide to society in promoting civic righteousness. Secondly, the law convicts sinners and drives them to Christ. Thirdly, the law directs Christians in holy living.
(8) Law and Gospel are in both Old and New Testaments. The gospel is the promises of God to His elect.
(9) Infant baptism is alien to the practice of the New Testament. Likewise, immersion is the proper mode of baptism.
(10) “A particular church, gathered and completely organized according to the mind of Christ, consists of officers and members; and the officers appointed by Christ to be chosen and set apart by the church.” We recognize no greater authority than the local church.
(11) The local church is a spiritual family where relationships are to be open and honest. All matters are handled in charity and patience. Only through every-member participation can individuals grow in grace and love.

[mark s]

I would more say that my view of Scripture affects my understanding of covenants and dispensations.

[jgilberAZ]

Herb said that while he was brought up as a strict dispensationalist, he believed this:

.... there are many areas where I agree with dispensationalism. But, as I said before, there are some areas where I disagree.

He elaborates where the differences lie at the link.

I like Mark's answer...

All I can say is that God has made various covenants throughout the dispensations . . .

I was raised to believe in the strict dispensational view of prophecy. At the heart of this view is the correct understanding that God deals with humankind at different times in different ways. For example, in the Old Testament God used the Jewish Law as a basis for a relationship with His chosen people. Today, since the sacrifice of God’s Son on the cross, we Christians believe God uses the grace that’s ours through faith in Jesus as a basis for a relationship.

He's using the word "dispensation," but he's really talking about covenants. God's "dealings with humankind at different times" was via covenants, not dispensations.

Jewish Law ...

Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD and all the rules. And all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words that the LORD has spoken we will do.” And Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. He rose early in the morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel. And he sent young men of the people of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the LORD. And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he threw against the altar. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient.” And Moses took the blood and threw it on the people and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words.”

(Exodus 24:3-8 ESV)

Faith in Jesus ...

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
(Jeremiah 31:31-34 ESV)

and

And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”

(Mark 14:22-25 ESV)

Call them "dispensations" if you want, but scripture calls them covenants.

.

[Abiding in His Word]

Call them "dispensations" if you want, but scripture calls them covenants.

Well, some scholars and/or commentaries refer to a "dispensation" as simply an age, era, epoch, period of time. So would it be more correct to say covenants within dispensations? That would be my understanding rather than an either/or terminology.

[mark s]

Scripture also calls them dispensations, in that dispensation is used to translate oikonomia.

Its the time period in which certain things happen in certain ways. The Sinai covenant established the dispensation of Law. The New Covenant established the dispensation of grace.

[drdos]

I Stand with Jesus. He's coming back and I'm going home, besides my brain hurts trying to pronounce those big words.

[burien1]

I Stand with Jesus. He's coming back and I'm going home, besides my brain hurts trying to pronounce those big words.

[jgilberAZ]

Scripture also calls them dispensations, in that dispensation is used to translate oikonomia.

Its the time period in which certain things happen in certain ways. The Sinai covenant established the dispensation of Law. The New Covenant established the dispensation of grace.

oikonomia

1) the management of a household or of household affairs
a) specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property
b) the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship
c) administration, dispensation

Strong's Number G3622 matches the Greek οἰκονομία (oikonomia), which occurs 7 times in 7 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Three are in Luke 16, the Parable of the Dishonest Manager.

And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses. So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord? And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore. And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

Here are the other four.

For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

I think what we see concerning the Greek word oikonomia is that it is used to teach us that God makes us stewards, and holds us accountable for our faithfulness.

In Luke, the steward was responsible for handling the financial affairs of the rich man.

In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul is saying he has been made a steward of the gospel, and will be held accountable for his stewardship of it.

Paul says the same thing in Ephesians 3 ... he has been made a steward of the gospel (the grace of God) to the Gentiles.

Paul says the same thing in Colossians 1 ... he has been made a minister of the gospel according to the stewardship of God.

Paul was "on a mission from God," so to speak. And, that mission was to spread the good news of God's grace. And, he would be held accountable for his efforts, in the same way as the Manager in Luke 16.

These all have to do with Paul's stewardship as a minister of the gospel, not God's separation of time into a different "dispensation."

The only one that may be applied as dispensationalists seek apply it is the Ephesians 1 passage. (Notwithstanding, it's dangerous to build a doctrine on one verse.)

But when you look at Ephesians 1:9-10 in other versions, it becomes apparent (at least to me) that even this passage is not saying that God dealt with man one way in a previous time period and deals with man in a different way in this new time period, which is how dispensationalist divide the Word.

It's saying that at the proper time, God "might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: "

I don't see oikonomia used this way in scripture:

Its the time period in which certain things happen in certain ways. The Sinai covenant established the dispensation of Law. The New Covenant established the dispensation of grace.

God is a God of covenants, not dispensations.

[Abiding in His Word]

God is a God of covenants, not dispensations

It's not my intention to minimize the importance of covenants, but to me it doesn't have to be an "either/or" situation. I also admit not having a great deal of study in this area because it doesn't make any sense (in my understanding) to make it so. God did establish a number of covenants, that's obvious. Also obvious is that the timeframe in which He established each was according to His progressive implementation of His plan. For example, while the prophecies concerning His birth are many in the OT, the actual event did not come to fruition until the perfect time in His "timetable."

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law....
[Gal 4:4)

....as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
[Eph 1:10)

My conclusion is that covenants were established in a specific period of time (or dispensation if you will) in order to best accomplish His progressive plan for mankind.

[jgilberAZ]

Covenantalism vs. Dispensationalism

It's a very worthy study to undertake.

[Abiding in His Word]

I take it you see it as an either/or.....

[daffodyllady]

Frankly, I am leery of studying human theories. Do I really need to clutter my brain with studying the ideas of guys who were obviously human? Isn't God able to reveal to me by the power of the Holy Spirit, what He meant when He inspired His word?

I never read the word "dispensationalism" in the Bible. However, I have read that God has made covenants. Paul said that we are under the New covenant, instead of the Old one. Therefore, I tend to think I would believe in covenants, rather than dispensationalism.

...But then I read that ALL those who believe in covenant theology are Calvinists. Oh my. Not I. I am not a follower of Calvin, nor of Paul or of Apollos.

Just give me the Bible, and stop feeding me theological systemic theories.
Christianity has had too many theologians, and not enough simple, obedient followers of Christ.

[jgilberAZ]

.
People who call themselves Calvinists, are not FOLLOWING Calvin, per se.

It just means that they believe the doctrines of grace that Calvin put forward are the correct (biblical) view of Salvation (soteriology).

Whether all Covenantals are Calvinists, I don't know. But, I do know that not all Calvinists are Covenantals, as John MacArthur is a Calvinist.

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-series/280


Most of us "basically" fall into one of two categories (to one degree or another), either Arminianism or Calvinism.

Armenianism:

election (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the rational faith or nonfaith of man;
the Atonement, while qualitatively adequate for all men, was efficacious only for the man of faith;
unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God’s will;
grace is not irresistible; and
believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace

Calvinism:

Total depravity (Original Sin)
Unconditional election (God's Election)
Limited atonement (Particular Redemption)
Irresistible grace (Effectual Calling)
Perseverance of the Saints

[jgilberAZ]

Christianity has had too many theologians, and not enough simple, obedient followers of Christ.

Daffy, I respect you immensely, but I must take issue with this statement.

Without knowing which parts of scripture apply to you, how do you know if you're being obedient, or not?

Dispensationalists divide the Word ... they mis-apply "Rightly dividing the Word" as 'divide it up into which sections apply to which people groups.'

For instance, they will tell us that Matthew 24 doesn't apply to us, it applies only to the Jews.

Others (Bullingerism, ultra-dispensationalists) will even divide it along the lines of "we only follow the writings of Paul."


This is the heart of the matter.


Can we divide the Bible into dispensations, and divvy up which parts belong to previous peoples and which parts apply to us today, and which parts apply to Jews today, and which parts apply to Gentiles today?

Or, do we look at scripture as a whole, as God having a plan of redemption revealed through the covenants, which apply in various ways to all of us ... all the people of God.

That's what's at stake.

[daffodyllady]

Well, jgilberAZ, perhaps I didn't clarify what I meant.

Down through history, the theologians of Christianity have constantly attempted to fit God into their boxes. They tried to figure out the mind of God, and make it all systematic, according to the mind of man. In the process, every one of those theologians either discarded the scriptures that did not seem to agree with their system, or else they reinterpreted those problematic verses.

Theologians made Christianity into a mental exercise, instead of an encounter with the risen Lord.

I will grant that some scriptures seem to support all 5 points of Calvinism. But then other scriptures seem to support Armenianism to the hilt.

I have chosen to acknowledge the mystery of these Scriptures, believing the mind of God is far above human systematic thinking. Perhaps in the eternal preeminence of the Creator, the Truth is a combination of both sides. If we could know God from His own perspective, we would suddenly realize the arrogance of our previous theological positions. Someday, "we shall know as we are known, face to face." What a day that will be!

Until then, I will accept and study the Scriptures. From my studies, so far, I have come to this understanding...

Many of the commandments of the OT pertain to the Old Covenant, and are only applicable to the Old Covenant earthy kingdom of Israel.
Christ came proclaiming the Kingdom of Heaven. Since that time, we live according to the rules of the Christ's kingdom, if we are His disciples. These Kingdom rules are found in the Sermon on the Mount.
Christ did command the Jewish people of His days to do whatever the Pharisees told them to do. That was because the Old Covenant was in force until the New was sealed with His blood. That is why Paul told the Gentiles they were not required to keep the law. That which was written and graven on stone has been made obsolete, by the glory of the New Covenant.

If you study the theology of the Early church, you will find there were quite different views, but all who named the Name of Christ, holding the core truth of the gospel, were accepted in the body of Christ.
Theologians endeavored to abolish that tolerance within the Body of Christ. Their teachings have split the church into factions that vied for preeminence, some actually taking up arms and killing others. Theologians convinced them that was okay, because the Old Covenant condoned such actions. Through the efforts of Theologians, the church's actions became the opposite of Christ's commands in the Sermon on the Mount.

Most Christians today do not think it is possible to obey all the commands of Christ.
And how does that define them, in Christ's own words?

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

[jgilberAZ]

I agree, Daffy, "Trust and Obey, for there's no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey."

- Jeff

[made4eternity]

I am a 5 point Calvinist and I am dispensational along the same vein as John MacArthur. Dispensationalism can carry a lot of extra, unbiblical baggage, therefore I don't care for the term. Yet I am dispensational in the sense that I believe God is not yet finished with Israel and still has plans for her (as is clearly indicated in the book of Revelation).

[Sword of Geddon]

I say throw out all these terms and ideas and read and follow what the Bible actually says.

Why does Mankind always has to make simple things complex and hard to understand..

[Mr Baldy]

Well, jgilberAZ, perhaps I didn't clarify what I meant.

Down through history, the theologians of Christianity have constantly attempted to fit God into their boxes. They tried to figure out the mind of God, and make it all systematic, according to the mind of man. In the process, every one of those theologians either discarded the scriptures that did not seem to agree with their system, or else they reinterpreted those problematic verses.

Theologians made Christianity into a mental exercise, instead of an encounter with the risen Lord.

I will grant that some scriptures seem to support all 5 points of Calvinism. But then other scriptures seem to support Armenianism to the hilt.

I have chosen to acknowledge the mystery of these Scriptures, believing the mind of God is far above human systematic thinking. Perhaps in the eternal preeminence of the Creator, the Truth is a combination of both sides. If we could know God from His own perspective, we would suddenly realize the arrogance of our previous theological positions. Someday, "we shall know as we are known, face to face." What a day that will be!

Until then, I will accept and study the Scriptures. From my studies, so far, I have come to this understanding...

Many of the commandments of the OT pertain to the Old Covenant, and are only applicable to the Old Covenant earthy kingdom of Israel.
Christ came proclaiming the Kingdom of Heaven. Since that time, we live according to the rules of the Christ's kingdom, if we are His disciples. These Kingdom rules are found in the Sermon on the Mount.
Christ did command the Jewish people of His days to do whatever the Pharisees told them to do. That was because the Old Covenant was in force until the New was sealed with His blood. That is why Paul told the Gentiles they were not required to keep the law. That which was written and graven on stone has been made obsolete, by the glory of the New Covenant.

If you study the theology of the Early church, you will find there were quite different views, but all who named the Name of Christ, holding the core truth of the gospel, were accepted in the body of Christ.
Theologians endeavored to abolish that tolerance within the Body of Christ. Their teachings have split the church into factions that vied for preeminence, some actually taking up arms and killing others. Theologians convinced them that was okay, because the Old Covenant condoned such actions. Through the efforts of Theologians, the church's actions became the opposite of Christ's commands in the Sermon on the Mount.

Most Christians today do not think it is possible to obey all the commands of Christ.
And how does that define them, in Christ's own words?

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Daffy,

I just wanted to thank you for posting your thoughts on this particular topic. I don't believe that I've ever read a better explanation. God bless your for this!