Escape (flee from) all these things

[1whowaits]

This passage in Luke 21 is referred to frequently suggesting that christians will escape the events of the 70th week (all these things). But is that what this passage is really indicating? The word 'escape' is interpreted as 'fleeing from', so are we to flee from the events of the 70th week? Do we have to flee from the events of the 70th week in order to stand before the Son of Man? If we do not flee from the events of the 70th week, if we are present during the 70th week, will we not be able to stand before the Son?

Luke 21 is paralleled in Matt 24 and Mark 13, the 3 authors are recording the same discourse made by Jesus. The disciples ask 2 questions that they appear to believe refer to the same period of time but in reality 2 different periods are involved. The first question-'when will this happen', ie. when will the stones of the temple be thrown down, occurred in 70 AD. The second question- 'what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age' is still to be fulfilled in the future.

All 3 passages follow a similar series and sequence of events, some of the passages go into more detail than others. All 3 passages describe the time before the AOD, the 'beginning of birthpangs' as described by matthew, when there will be wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences, fearful events and signs from heaven.

Matt and Mark then describe the AOD as following the beginning of birthpangs, while Luke describes the events of 70 AD in vs 20-24, which would parallel the sequencing of the AOD in the other 2 passages. I would speculate that this occurs because the disciples did believe they were asking about 1 period of time instead of 2 separate periods. The events of the AOD may appear similar to what occurred in 70 AD, which Dan 11 appears to suggest. Because the description of 70 AD and the AOD appear somewhat similar, the disciples may have thought the same event was being described, so Matt and Mark included only 1 part of the description while Luke included the other, perhaps in an attempt to avoid being redundant in their description.

In any case, the 3 passages would then follow the same pattern of the beginning of birthpangs, the AOD, followed by the time of great distress and then the return of the Son of Man after the time of distress. Then each of the 3 passages describes the lesson of the fig tree, demonstratiing that the 3 passages to follow a parallel description even to this point.

Following the lesson of the fig tree, Matt and Mark give encouragements and parables concerned with staying awake and alert, watching and waiting for the return of the Son of Man when he comes after the time of distress, on the Day of the Lord, at the end of the age. It is in this parallel context that Luke makes the statement- 'Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipations, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you like a trap.'

This statement would be consistent with those in Matt and Mark encouraging the faithful to remain alert and awake, watching for the Lord's return on 'the Day' of the Lord. Again, in this parallel context Luke records-'Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man'.

This passage does appear to parallel those of Mark and Matt, 'stay awake' and pray that you may be able to flee from all that is about to happen..., this passage in context is referring to remaining alert and awake for the coming of the Son of Man. And in that context, does the reference to escaping or fleeing from all that is about to happen refer to all the events previously described, from the time of the beginning of birthpangs to the time of distress? Or does it refer to what was just mentioned previously in the passage, not weighing down one's heart with drukenness and the anxieties of life that would cause one to not be alert and awake? That one should not let the events that occur (all these things) to weigh one down with anxiety so that one is not alert and awake and watching for the coming of the Son of Man?

Is one not able to stand before the Son of Man becuase he was not alert and awake, or because he endured all the events of the 70th week? What are we repeatedly encouraged to flee (escape) from in all 3 passages, the events of the 70th week, or being asleep and not watching for His return? What do the context and parallel passages suggest?

[Exit40]

Hi 1WW. You missed commenting a very important part of this verse.

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. KJV

Who is it that accounts us worthy ? Certainly not ourselves. And what are the qualifications needed to be counted worthy ?

God Bless You

David

[1whowaits]

Exit, thanks for pointing that out. I looked that part up again on the Parallel Bible site, and the word used is 'katishuo', which is interpreted as to have strength or overpower. So the verse would read - keep alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and stand before the Son of Man. The word escape also is interpreted as 'flee away', so one is told to stay awake, praying that one has the strength to flee away (escape) the things about to take place.

Does that sound like one being taken out of the 70th week, or being encouraged to endure through or have strength and flee from the things that will take place that would prevent one from standing before the Son (flee from what would cause one to fall asleep)?

It appears that the KJV interprets the word 'katishuo' as 'accounted worthy', which might not change the overall meaning that much- stay alert(awake) and pray that you are accounted worthy to flee away from the things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of man. Being accounted worthy could refer to those who believe being the ones who are counted worthy and are alert and awake and flee from those things which would cause one to be asleep, which would appear to parallel statements in other passages of scripture- 'you brothers, are not in darkeness so that this day should surprise you like a thief....you are sons of the light and sons of the day...let us not be like others who are asleep....' 1 Thess 5.

So does this statement in Luke 21 point to an escape from the 70th week, or an encouragement to stay awake and endure as the parallel passages in Matt and Mark also do?

[mark s]

At issue is which manuscript you are looking at. The Minority Text shows "have strength". The Majority Text shows "be accounted worthy".

[Exit40]

At issue is which manuscript you are looking at. The Minority Text shows "have strength". The Majority Text shows "be accounted worthy".

Hi Mark. I'm not sure what those are, but yes, the issue is where are we getting this information. So far I have found two words being used, katischiyo and kataxioo. The different meanings are 'counted worthy' and ' have the strength to'. So I am lost and in need of a Greek scholar for help.

Nevertheless, I am wondering how we would be able to have strength enough to withstand all those things coming on the earth, by ourselves. Of course we can't, so The Lord must be providing for us here though it isn't specifically stated here. Being counted worthy implies, to me at least, The Lord directly being active in provision. That provision of course is still a matter of debate. Counted worthy, kataxioo, is written four times in the NT, the other three are directly related to the Kingdom of God. So one would think 21:36 is also related to The Kingdom. Have strength, katischiyo, is written two other times, and other than 21:36 the word prevail is is meant. What are your thoughts on this .

God Bless You

David

[shorttribber]

Being counted worthy implies, to me at least, The Lord directly being active in provision.

Exactly.

Alexandrian or Byzantine.................should net the same understanding

[Exit40]

Hi 1WW...

Being accounted worthy could refer to those who believe being the ones who are counted worthy and are alert and awake and flee from those things which would cause one to be asleep

I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but that makes sense in light of the other Scriptures. And in reference to the first word of the passage , watch, meaning be vigilant, ready. I have thought of this in two ways. One is to watch the world for signs of the end of our age. The other, and most importantly, is to guard my Faith, to keep the Truth of the Gospel and the Word close in my heart, rejecting that which is or has the appearance of being false.

To answer your question, I am prepared to be here till the end of the age. However, as I have given my life to Our Lord I am also prepared to obey Him when He calls on me, which could be at any time from now up to the end. I don't know what He has in store for me, I just know that He does have something for me to do, for His Glory and for the Kingdom. How all this works out for the Body of Christ I am unsure. I am sure though that many think like me, and rely on The Lord as I do, and seek guidance in prayer and The Word, so that we may obey Him, and praise His Name for His mercy and grace. In Spirit and Truth..

God Bless You

David

[mark s]

There is a difference between the manuscripts, so, one is right, the other is not.

Either Jesus said, "be accounted worthy", or he said, "have strength". In one case, the copyist copied correctly. In the other case, the copyist made a mistake, or introduced an error. So this is a 'disputed passage'. Some say it should read this way, some say it should read that way.

But which is which, and how to know?

In cases like this, I try to find other passages that teach about the same thing, and look at the wording used. If I can find a passage that's not disputed, and settles the issue, then I can be certain.

So can we find other passages about "escaping these things", and "standing before the Son of Man"? If so, how do they say it happens? By our own strength? Or by being accounted worthy?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[shorttribber]

how do they say it happens? By our own strength? Or by being accounted worthy?

By being counted worthy to obtain God's strength though faith in Christ....and receive the needed grace to endure, persevere....and have the patience of the saints and not fall away into drunkenness and deception of the world ...as a snare.

Worthy to be strong by grace through the greatest test of our faith.


As i said..they both net the same understanding for me.........you may see it differently and view it as a mistake.

[Abiding in His Word]

Let me see if I can share how I see this passage in a fairly coherent manner.....no promises though.

Whenever verse in question is discussed relative to the "things" which will take place, verses 34-35 seem to be overlooked or ignored in the context of Jesus' words and warnings. We tend to think that Jesus is speaking to believers in most of the chapter, but that He is speaking about unbelievers in verses 34-35.

But if we view the "escape" verse in the context of the whole, we find a number of warnings to believers interspersed in the passage.

1) See to it that you are not misled (Luke 21:8)

2) Do not go after them (Luke 21:8)

3) Do not be terrified (Luke 21:9)

4) Do not prepare beforehand to defend yourselves (Luke 21:14)

5) You will be betrayed and hated (Luke 21:16-17)

6) By your endurance you will gain your lives (Luke 21:19)

7) There will be men fainting from fear (Luke 21:26)

and the next very important warning:

8) "Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. Luke 21:34-35

Now when we read verse 36 in context, Jesus is admonishing us to be strong. He's admonishing us not to be weighted down with the worries of life because of the things we see happening. We are to have the endurance (verse 19) and strength (verse 36) to stand; i.e. to escape unscathed spiritually without dissipation, drunkenness, and/or fear. Then we can stand confidently before Him without shame when He appears.

Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 1John 2:28

That's how I view the passage.

[Abiding in His Word]

Hey shorttribber, I see we understand the passage in nearly the same way. I was just a bit more long-winded in my post.

[shorttribber]

Hey shorttribber, I see we understand the passage in nearly the same way. I was just a bit more long-winded in my post.

[shorttribber]

Mal.3:
2 But who....... may abide......... the day of his coming? and .........who shall stand ........when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.


Stand therefore.............be not drunken and taken in the snare set for the world.........but stand and stay JOINED(Levi) to Christ and be patient unto the end......."by your patience possess ye your souls".

When Christ's second parousia begins the second half of the Confirmation with Many begins.........He will Confirm who you are and who He is to the world.............Watch and be ALSO ready!

The "purge" begins soon.

[1whowaits]

I would agree with Abiding, the Jesus does appear to be encouraging us to be strong and endure, which is consistent with His parallel statements to this section of Luke in Mark and Matt. And i would agree that it is God who 'strengthens' and who 'accounts worthy', but not to escape the 70th week, but to escape those things that would cause one to fall spiritually, to turn from the faith, to be asleep and not awake and watching, which is the consistent theme in the parallel sections of Mark and Matt.

[mark s]

how do they say it happens? By our own strength? Or by being accounted worthy?

By being counted worthy to obtain God's strength though faith in Christ....and receive the needed grace to endure, persevere....and have the patience of the saints and not fall away into drunkenness and deception of the world ...as a snare.

Worthy to be strong by grace through the greatest test of our faith.


As i said..they both net the same understanding for me.........you may see it differently and view it as a mistake.

I'm saying that Jesus said a certain thing, and, due to the manuscript differences, I think we need to bring other Scriptures to see what God is saying.

I'm at work right now, so I can't take much time at the moment . . .


Love in Christ,
mark

[mark s]

There's that phrase, "these things", "these things that are coming to pass".

In verse 31, Jesus refers to "these things", what things are those?

There are the things that are coming, and there are the ways people will be distracted, that that Day come as a surprise.

[shorttribber]

look at it from this pespective Mark,

A soldier in that day would "PROVE" a weapon, and find it "WORTH" fighting with. They find the weapon or a fellow soldier "Worth" fighting with.

The weapon must be "Strong" and "Proven"..........just as David could not use the armour he was provided, he said he had not "Proven" them, so he chose one that had previously been "Proven Strong and Worthy of use".


We are going to be "Proven Strong and Worthy " of the Masters use.

When the Confirmation with many, part two, commences.

[shorttribber]

There's that phrase, "these things", "these things that are coming to pass".

In verse 31, Jesus refers to "these things", what things are those?

The drunkenness, faithlessness and Apostasy that shall come as a snare.

Math. 24:
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[mark s]

look at it from this pespective Mark,

A soldier in that day would "PROVE" a weapon, and find it "WORTH" fighting with. They find the weapon or a fellow soldier "Worth" fighting with.

The weapon must be "Strong" and "Proven"..........just as David could not use the armour he was provided, he said he had not "Proven" them, so he chose one that had previously been "Proven Strong and Worthy of use".


We are going to be "Proven Strong and Worthy " of the Masters use.

When the Confirmation with many, part two, commences.

This doesn't seem like two different uses of "worthy" to you?

That aside . . . you are then thinking that "be accounted worthy" rather than "have strength" is the correct reading?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[shorttribber]

This doesn't seem like two different uses of "worthy" to you?

I don't think so....for example......that a weapon should "deserve my trust", or this fellow soldier "deserves" my confidence.

Strongs #2661.......deserving.

That aside . . . you are then thinking that "be accounted worthy" rather than "have strength" is the correct reading?

I just think that both readings give more insight and clarity to each other that's all.

[shorttribber]

After a deserving (worthy) vessel is made by the Potter it is put in the fire and strengthened for use.

[mark s]

I just think that both readings give more insight and clarity to each other that's all.

OK, I understand.

Love in Christ,
mark

[Abiding in His Word]

After a deserving (worthy) vessel is made by the Potter it is put in the fire and strengthened for use.

Agreed. We know we are worthy, justified, righteous and reconciled servants. But not all servants will be strong enough under the circumstances (in the passage) to be used of God. This is obvious throughout scripture.

[shorttribber]

After a deserving (worthy) vessel is made by the Potter it is put in the fire and strengthened for use.

Agreed. We know we are worthy, justified, righteous and reconciled servants. But not all servants will be strong enough under the circumstances (in the passage) to be used of God. This is obvious throughout scripture.

[mark s]

I didn't think this passage was about being used, rather, to "escape these things", and to "stand before the Son of Man."


?

[shorttribber]

I didn't think this passage was about being used, rather, to "escape these things", and to "stand before the Son of Man."


?

if we escape the things of the world we are more fit for the Masters use.

[mark s]

Once again, I think we have some very different ideas on how to read and interpret Scripture.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[shorttribber]

Once again, I think we have some very different ideas on how to read and interpret Scripture.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Certainly, if you view the passage as an "fleeing from" tribulation and others view it as "fleeing from" ungodliness then we will without a doubt arrive at different conclusions.


But again, is the gathering to Christ in the air BEST described as a "fleeing"?

But, escaping ungodliness IS described as a "fleeing from".

The choice is yours , one definition fits best.

[Abiding in His Word]

context is everything....

[Abiding in His Word]

Sorry, I was called away and couldn't finish my thought above.

Why would Jesus speak of so many "warnings" if the outcome of the things that were coming was an escape from them? In other words, He isn't just saying "watch...watch." He does list things that will happen, but speaks of endurance, dissipation, drunkenness, and worries that will result from these happenings if we aren't careful because it will come upon all on the face of the earth. We are to guard ourselves. He mentioned no exclusions to those events. That's what I see in the context.

[watching]

Hi 1WW, and everyone,

I've been out most of the day, except for a few brief moments, so I haven't had a chance to post any comments until now.

In any case, there are a couple of things that I would like to point out.

First of all, I just looked up the meaning of the word κατισχύω (katischyo). And, as Exit 40 has already pointed out, it doesn't just mean to be strong.

It means to be strong to another's detriment, to prevail against, to overcome.

See definition here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2729&t=KJV

So, as Exit 40, has pointed out, the concept is "prevailing against," or "overcoming," all of the things that shall come to pass.


The next thing that needs to be considered is.....

What, exactly, is it, that causes one to prevail/to be accounted worthy to escape all the things that shall come to pass?

Luke 21:36

King James Version (KJV)

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Obviously, it's watching and praying.

(It's not about investing in really good footwear, so we can run really fast.)

Which brings me to my next point, and that is the word "ἐκφεύγω" (ekphevgo).

The word "ekfevgo" does not actually mean "to flee" or "to flee away from" (that would be "phevgo," with out the "ek"), as in Matthew 24:16.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&t=KJV#conc/16

However, it doesn't exactly mean "escape" either. It's a little more specific than that. For example, you would not use the word "ekfevgo" to say that someone "escaped" from prison. It would not be the correct word for that usage.

The word "ekfevgo" means "to escape"..........but, "to escape," as in, from someone's clutches.

I think the best way to describe it is if you try to catch a fish, and the fish slips out of your hands. Then you would say, that the fish got away "ekfevgw" (escaped).

So, that is the type of escape we are talking about.

Actually, the modern way to say the word "ekfevgo" is "xefevgo."

You can see the definition here:

ξεφεύγω = jink, slip
xefevgo
ξεφεύγω από = break away
xefevgo apo

http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

I actually had to look up the word "jink" in English, because I have never heard that word, before.

Here is the definition:

1. to move swiftly or jerkily or make a quick turn in order to dodge or elude

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jink

So, basically, the word "ekfevgo" means to escape in just the nick of time, as in to escape from someone's clutches.

And if you look in the concordance for the word "ekfevgo" in the New Testament, you will see that that is exactly how it was used in every instance.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1628&t=KJV

So, obviously, this cannot be referring to "fleeing," as in "running away from" the things that are to come to pass.

Because, I don't care how fast you run, you can't run away from "sudden destruction."

And that's aside from the fact that "ekfevgo" doesn't even mean to run away from, anyway.

It means to barely escape, or get away from, in just the nick of time.

So, it also cannot apply to drunkenness. Because, how do you flee from drunkenness?

You can run away from drunkenness. For example, if you see a bar, or a beer bottle, you can run away from it.

But, you can't flee from it, in the sense of the word, "ekfevgo."

Unless, of course, the beer bottle comes to life and starts chasing you down the street and starts grabbing you, or attempting to grab you, until you finally manage to get away from it's clutches.......and then run.

[Abiding in His Word]

Unless, of course, the beer bottle comes to life and starts chasing you down the street and starts grabbing you, or attempting to grab you, until you finally manage to get away from it's clutches.......and then run.

No, it's not the beer bottle that might have you in it's clutches, but it's the "condition" on the heart it produces; dissipation, drunkenness, and worry.

[watching]

Hi Abiding,

I don't think it applies to something that already has a hold on you, as in a long term hold.

I think "overcoming" would be a more appropriate term in that type of situation.

You can overcome heart disease.

But heart disease isn't something that's going to try and suddenly grab you, in order for you to "break away" or "escape" from it.

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi watching,

So after your word studies, is it your opinion that the purpose of the entire passage is to tell us that we will escape all the things Jesus said were going to happen? Or that we must be careful lest we miss it (slips out of our hands?)

[watching]

So after your word studies, is it your opinion that the purpose of the entire passage is to tell us that we will escape all the things Jesus said were going to happen?

Only if we watch and pray.

Or that we must be careful lest we miss it (slips out of our hands?)

No, we are the one's who are escaping (hopefully).

[shorttribber]

But you can flee quickly from a "snare" just before you are taken in it or by it.

You can "flee quickly" youthful lusts....I understand this to be the same or very similar word no?

[watching]

Hi Shorttribber,

But you can flee quickly from a "snare" just before you are taken in it or by it.

You can "flee quickly" youthful lusts....I understand this to be the same or very similar word no?

Are you referring to scripture verses?


In any case, you can escape (ekfevgo) a snare.

But, how do you escape (ekfevgo) youthful lusts?

[shorttribber]

According to Strongs it is from #5343 "flee from"

and it is the word #1628 and the meaning is to "flee from" but nothing is required by these words to indicate a "suddenness" as you've mentioned....at least by Strongs definition.


And it surely does not idicate a Flying away.

[1whowaits]

I would agree with Abiding, context is important. And the context of Luke 21 is found in Matt 24 and Mark 13, which is the point i am attempting to make. Each account of the Olivet discourse follows the same divisions in parallel, the beginning of birthpangs, the AOD/AD 70, the time of distress and the coming of the Son of Man. These 3 passages then describe the lesson of the fig tree confirming that the same discussion is being presented in parallel.

It is after the lesson of the fig tree that the statement is made in Luke 21:36, so what is stated in Matt 24 and Mark 13 after the lesson of the fig tree would be the rest of the discussion surrounding 'escaping all these things'.

The statement in Luke 21:36 appears to be more of a summary statement suggesting that it followed other statements made by Jesus. Did this statement follow what is included in Matt 24-'Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the hour your Lord will come..' -then discussing coming like a thief, 'so you must also be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.' Or did the statement in Luke follow- 'who then is the faithful and wise servant...it will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns.....but suppose that servant is wicked...the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites..'

Or does the statement in Luke 21 follow the parable of the 10 virgins or the parable of the talents? Or did it follow the statement in Mark 13- 'therefore watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back- whether in the evening, or at midnight....if he comes suddenly do not let him find you sleeping...'

Does the context, the statements that are made in Matt 24 and Mark 13 that likely surround the statement of Luke 21, make what is stated in Luke 21:36 clearer? Is it to escape what is to come or remain faithful and endure?

[shorttribber]

But, how do you escape (ekfevgo) youthful lusts?

resist the Devil and he will #5343(flee) from you

[shorttribber]

That's kinda funny when ya think about....LOL........I got ole slew foot doin' a 5343!

[watching]

Hi Shorttribber,

φεύγω (feugo) is simply to flee.

ἐκφεύγω (ek-feugo) means to OUT flee.

See short definition here:

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?search=EKFEUGW

The "OUT" (ek) part is used in the same sense as we would say, "outsmart," for instance.

So, it doesn't mean to "flee FROM" exactly.

It means to "OUT flee." In other words, to get away from.

Not run away from, necessarily, but rather to escape from, which may, or may not, entail running.

But, as I said, before, how do you "run" from the things that are going to come to pass?

And it doesn't just mean to "run from" anyway. That would be the word "fevgw" (5343).

The word "ek fevgw" means to elude, to escape, to slip away from, etc.

[shorttribber]

Come OUT from amoung them and be ye separate...........flee OUT! Flee OUT! Don't delay!

[watching]

Shorttribber, that's a completely different word.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=6&v=1&t=KJV#conc/17

Are you trying to compare apples to oranges?

[shorttribber]

Shorttribber, that's a completely different word.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=6&v=1&t=KJV#conc/17

Are you trying to compare apples to oranges?

No....just showing the word OUT..........in reference to fleeing ungodliness.......different or not......flee out or come out can still be used to separate ourselves from the world and it's trap.

[Abiding in His Word]

If Jesus was referring to an "escape" from all the things, he mentioned, he would have focused on the joy of expectation for us. Rather he said they would lead to an opportunity for our testimony. They would lead to imprisonment and persecution. There would be hatred among family members and betrayal. They are days of vengeance. There will be great distress that will come upon the whole world. Men will be fainting from fear. These were warnings spoken to believers. [sarcasm here] Oh, but don't worry about strength and endurance, you won't be here. [/end sarcasm]

Doesn't make sense to me.

[shorttribber]

If Jesus was referring to an "escape" from all the things, he mentioned, he would have focused on the joy of expectation for us. Rather he said they would lead to an opportunity for our testimony. They would lead to imprisonment and persecution. There would be hatred among family members and betrayal. They are days of vengeance. There will be great distress that will come upon the whole world. Men will be fainting from fear. These were warnings spoken to believers. [sarcasm here] Oh, but don't worry about strength and endurance, you won't be here. [/end sarcasm]

Doesn't make sense to me.

I agree....I just can't see it any other way......seems very much a force of meaning rather than natural to have it imply an escape via rapture.

[shorttribber]

I think it was difficult also for the ancient church to comprehend how the text could imply their escape from the time of trouble when they were being covered with pitch and used as human torches on Roman porches as the Romans feasted and had sex.

or while they watched their children hung from hooks and skinned alive or sewn up inside of a sheep and fed to the lions.

Or roasted slowly over a green stack of wood.

I don't think you or I would have understood that the church was going to miss all that stuff like so many think today.

I think we better be prayed up Brothers and Sisters.

[mark s]

I guess they didn't have the worthy-strength to flee!

[shorttribber]

I guess they didn't have the worthy-strength to flee!

Yes they did.....they defeated fear and embraced faith