If I am of the Church, why should I go to "church"?

[GodsStudent]

I can't imagine reading Hebrews 10 and walking away with the desire or belief that it would be ok to forsake the assembling of the saints. I also know that I feel convicted (I believe the Holy Spirit convicts me in my spirit) when forsaking the assembling with my brothers, sisters, teachers, elders in the church, and of course the pastors. I earnestly prayed that the Lord lead me to a church home here where we live, and I was ASTONISHED at the church that was right here the whole time, with me not knowing about it.

Sorry to insert myself in the middle of the various conversations, but I was reading them and hearing Hebrews 10 in my mind. I know how frustrating it can be to want a church family, but not want to be in a church where issues of great concern to the Saints are taking place. That being said, the fear I had about this being my only choice, or my getting stuck in a place like that turned out to be a faith issue.

The Lord is able.

[mark s]

Hi Mark,

I notice your quote of Ephesians 4:11

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers

I've asked this question before in various threads about the church today, but don't think anyone's answered it. We know that the word translated "pastor" is more correctly translated "shepherd." I find it used only 17 times in the NT and normally referring to Jesus as the Shepherd but several times as a literal shepherd who guards a literal flock of sheep from harm.

So here's my question again... if we see this mention of a shepherd in Ephesians as an "office" in the local assembly, shouldn't the others be "offices" as well? Do you (for example) have paid apostles, evangelists, and prophets in your church? Do they have literal offices, full-time positions, and administrative assistants as pastors do? If not, why not?

It seems strange to me that only one out of the list appears to "officially" function within the local church today. Hope you can provide some clarification on this for me.

Hi Abiding,

I believe I've posted on this before, but no matter . . .

I think a big part of this is simply our terminology. "Apostle" simply means "sent out one". In our church, we've sent people out to various places in the world, including China, Israel, Jordan, Russia, Sudan, I can't think of them all right now.

There were more apostles than the 12 original apostles. While they hold a unique position unto themselves (names on the foundations of the New Jerusalem, judging the 12 tribes in the regeneration), they were not the only apostles. James, Jesus' brother, is called an apostle in Galatians, though he was not one of the original 12 (of course, Matthias replacing Judas). Barnabas is called an apostle in Acts 14:14. There are others whom the Scriptures might be referring to as apostles, I've selected the clear-cut examples.

While we don't use the word "apostle" (we call them missionaries), we have sent them out, as best we can tell at God's leading, to go where there are not churches, to bring the Gospel, and establish the church, teaching them in the faith.

As a church body, we send money to these people to support them. Some spend all their time serving, others also hold jobs, each according to the particular situation God has put them in.

Some serve entirely at their own expense, as do some our our pastors (elders).

There are evangelists who likewise preach the Gospel in both "churched" and "unchurched" venues, likewise, some receiving support, some partial support, and some serving at their own expense.

Leaving prophets aside for the moment . . .

Let's translate literally, "shepherds and teachers". Linguistically, this refers to the same individual, a shepherd who teaches. Or, a teacher who shepherds.

1Pe 5:1-4
(1) The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:
(2) Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly;
(3) nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;
(4) and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

The elders are to shepherd the flock that has been entrusted to them. When you look at the descriptions given for elders, it includes teaching. This is my understanding that the elders are also called the overseers, and they both teach and shepherd the people in their particular assembly.

Again, in my church, and others I am aware of, some we support fully, some partly, and some serve at their own expense.

I hope this clarifies, at least, this is how I understand this.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Hi Mark,

Matthew 26:

17 Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?”
18 And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”
19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.

Again, Jesus is not titling himself, all he is doing is telling one person that he is going to this persons house for Passover, that's all he is doing.

He's calling Himself "the Teacher". Isn't that what you are saying people shouldn't do?

Mark wrote:

Or Peter, as he writes, "The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder. . ." (Peter 5:1)

Peter didn't have a problem either singling out others as elders, or singling out himself as an elder.

Peter was just speaking that he is an older person, I don't think he was titling himself as a church official.

If this simply means "old people", why do they have to be appointed? Why are there the lists of qualifications? (such as in Titus and Timothy)

Mark wrote:

There are certain ones who are elders, and the others are not. And we are to know who is who. Again, Paul writing to Titus, "Appoint elders in every city". This is to name certain ones as elders. Its not a guessing game to know who is who.

Acts 14,
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

They were appointed elders as older and wiser of that church, but those who were called as elders, did they title themselves as elders? It's ok for someone to call you an elder, but I don't think it's ok to say to people, "hi, I am an elder".
My neighbors know the things I do in Christ, when they have questions or needed encouragements, some would come to visit me as an elder. I don't title myself as one.

They were appointed elders. You don't just walk into the White House and say, "I'm the President". You have to be elected. And for someone to simply announce "I'm an elder", well, I don't know whether or not God may have called them too it, however, in my church, even our "senior pastor" didn't appoint himself, the original assembly asked him to be their pastor. As the church grew, more elders were selected. None simply "appointed" themselves.

Acts 15:4 refers to "the church, the apostles, and the elders". They were a distinct group. And we see that throughout Scripture. Rather than name all the places, I'll leave the reader to examine this for themself, should they wish to.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

I can't imagine reading Hebrews 10 and walking away with the desire or belief that it would be ok to forsake the assembling of the saints. I also know that I feel convicted (I believe the Holy Spirit convicts me in my spirit) when forsaking the assembling with my brothers, sisters, teachers, elders in the church, and of course the pastors.

Hi GodsStudent,

I think you'll agree that Hebrews 10 does not specify when, how often, or even where the saints should assemble. Nor does Paul stipulate how many believers comprise an assembly. But Jesus did.

Chapter 10 of Hebrews is Paul's reminder of the weakness of the OT and it's laws and the fulfillment in Christ's sacrifice. The suffering these believers endured (vs. 32-34) makes assembling together for encouraging one another all the more beneficial.

That's not to say we shouldn't assemble, but who, when, where, how often, or how many constitute a gathering is unspoken.

[Abiding in His Word]

If this simply means "old people", why do they have to be appointed? Why are there the lists of qualifications? (such as in Titus and Timothy)

They were appointed elders. You don't just walk into the White House and say, "I'm the President". You have to be elected. And for someone to simply announce "I'm an elder", well, I don't know whether or not God may have called them too it, however, in my church, even our "senior pastor" didn't appoint himself, the original assembly asked him to be their pastor. As the church grew, more elders were selected. None simply "appointed" themselves.

My research shows the word elder to mean primarily "aged" or advanced in life and/or faith. One such example is Hebrews 11:2 "Heb 11:2 For by it the people of old (presbuteros) received their commendation." The chapter proceeds to record the extraordinary faith of OT individuals who have proven their spiritual faith by their lives.

Those times when elder is referred to as a "rank" or "official position" seems to be within the Jewish hierarchial system where scribes, chief priests, and elders (within the Sanhedrin?) ruled over the Jews. With Paul's background, it's not unusual for him to use the word "appoint" but would be unusual to suggest he was trying to establish a system of legalism from which he had come and firmly refuted after his conversion.

So, imo, the "appointment" of elders was to ensure that assemblies with new converts were overseen by those who were solid in their faith which were normally be older, more mature individuals who were not tossed aside by every wind of doctrine. Timothy does seem to be an exception to the age qualification (who wasn't married nor had children, did he?), but knowing his firm faith imparted by his mother and grandmother, was found to be stable and mature in his beliefs.

Again, Paul's concern was that as new converts came into an assembly, they had someone who was above reproach and solid in the faith to be an example to the flock. We should never be surprised to find Paul using terms familiar to him with his military and Pharisee background, but realize with certainty that he is not establishing nor endorsing such systems within the confines of Christianity.

[WOODHENOT3]

Hi Mark,
I believe Abiding said it well on the elder part,

My point on Jesus,
18 And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”
Who is the certain man?
Many people knew who Jesus was "the Teacher"...Why do you think Jesus was telling the certain man "the Teacher says?"..Why didn't he say, tell the certain man, "Jesus says" instead? I believe Jesus had to use Teacher for a reason, it was not to title himself.

[mark s]

Legalism? I think we're on very different wavelengths.

But each one should function in the role God gave them.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[GodsStudent]

I can't imagine reading Hebrews 10 and walking away with the desire or belief that it would be ok to forsake the assembling of the saints. I also know that I feel convicted (I believe the Holy Spirit convicts me in my spirit) when forsaking the assembling with my brothers, sisters, teachers, elders in the church, and of course the pastors.

Hi GodsStudent,

I think you'll agree that Hebrews 10 does not specify when, how often, or even where the saints should assemble. Nor does Paul stipulate how many believers comprise an assembly. But Jesus did.

Chapter 10 of Hebrews is Paul's reminder of the weakness of the OT and it's laws and the fulfillment in Christ's sacrifice. The suffering these believers endured (vs. 32-34) makes assembling together for encouraging one another all the more beneficial.

That's not to say we shouldn't assemble, but who, when, where, how often, or how many constitute a gathering is unspoken.

Hi Abiding:

I don't disagree with anything you've said here.

[Abiding in His Word]

Legalism? I think we're on very different wavelengths.

Hi Mark,

I assume you are referring to my post which mentioned the word legalism. Perhaps I wasn't clear, so let me try again. I'm not saying that elders/presbuteros/aged/mature are not appointed to serve in the local assembly. I was distinguishing between those elders appointed in the early church from those elders of the Sanhedrin or Great Council who claimed great authority and jurisdiction over matters of religion. That was the legalism Paul did not have in mind for elders serving.

Mat_15:2 "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

Mat_16:21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.

Act_6:12 And they stirred up the people, the elders and the scribes, and they came up to him and dragged him away and brought him before the Council.

Act_23:14 They came to the chief priests and the elders and said, "We have bound ourselves under a solemn oath to taste nothing until we have killed Paul.

Thayer Definition of Sanhedrin:

1) any assembly (especially of magistrates, judges, ambassadors), whether convened to deliberate or pass judgment

2) any session or assembly or people deliberating or adjudicating

2a) the Sanhedrin, the great council at Jerusalem, consisting of the seventy one members, viz. scribes, elders, prominent members of the high priestly families and the high priest, the president of the assembly. The most important causes were brought before this tribunal, inasmuch as the Roman rulers of Judaea had left to it the power of trying such cases, and also of pronouncing sentence of death, with the limitation that a capital sentence pronounced by the Sanhedrin was not valid unless it was confirmed by the Roman procurator.

2b) a smaller tribunal or council which every Jewish town had for the decision of less important cases.

Hope that narrows the wavelengths...

[mark s]

OK, I'm not talking about the Sanhedrin et al. 1 Peter 5, for instance. Those places in Titus and Timothy. The elders and overseers of the church.

I'm just going to say, at this point, that I believe God has a loving and caring design for His church, which includes certain people that He's given to the church to draw, nurture, exhort, teach, yes, shepherd, all of these things and more. Those who serve falsely will have to account to God. Those who serve well find it their life's joy. And those who are served in these ways are richer for it.

I hope, and pray, that all believers will come to find the flock, with it's shepherds/teachers, and even apostles (missionaries), and evangelists, yes, even prophets, which God has set apart for them.

We serve each other, but not according to our own design. It needs to be according to His design.

There has been much I've posted in this thread that has not been addressed. I don't see the reason to continue to add, I'll let what I've said speak for itself.

If anyone want to comment on my previous posts, we can discuss that.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

I'll let others reply to some I've evidently overlooked. My apologies. It was not intentional and I thought I had shared the scriptures you mentioned as I see them.

We serve each other, but not according to our own design. It needs to be according to His design.

Paul seems to be the major church planter in the NT. As the apostle to the gentiles, it becomes his responsibility to make sure the new converts (both Jewish and gentile) are cared for in his absence. He steadfastly, consistently tells them that deceivers and those after sordid gain will infiltrate their assemblies and for that reason elders (those mature and above reproach) are to guard against those who will seek out to destroy the liberty they have as believers.

1Ti_2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

2Ti_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus,

2Ti_1:11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

His ministry has been entrusted to him by Jesus. Paul brings with him some a background as a Roman citizen, military, Pharisee, etc. and does use some familiar terms that are not meant to establish the legalism or system of hierarchy from which he came. His great concern in each church that was established was error, deception, false teachers, false prophets, and the Judaisers.

This is true in Titus:

(9)…...holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

Why: (10-11) For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.

You asked:

If this simply means "old people", why do they have to be appointed? Why are there the lists of qualifications? (such as in Titus and Timothy)

My response:

My research shows the word elder to mean primarily "aged" or advanced in life and/or faith. One such example is Hebrews 11:2 "Heb 11:2 For by it the people of old (presbuteros) received their commendation." The chapter proceeds to record the extraordinary faith of OT individuals who have proven their spiritual faith by their lives.

So, imo, the "appointment" of elders was to ensure that assemblies with new converts were overseen by those who were solid in their faith which were normally be older, more mature individuals who were not tossed aside by every wind of doctrine. Timothy does seem to be an exception to the age qualification (who wasn't married nor had children, did he?), but knowing his firm faith imparted by his mother and grandmother, was found to be stable and mature in his beliefs.

I'll let others share their thoughts, but I do see Paul's major concern recorded many times in each of his epistles as being the danger of error infiltrating the newly formed churches. To that end, mature individuals who were above reproach were needed to watch over (shepherd) and guard the flock.

[WOODHENOT3]

My best worship times are at dinner time with my family or in my backyard with a group of people having a campfire, cookouts, and even bible studies. I pray personally with God as Jesus commanded us to do.
Believers are the Church.
God dwells in us wherever we are..
There is no higher authority in Church, every believer is a priest unto God.
James 1:
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Blessings, Woody

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi Woody,

Is it wrong to title yourself as elder, pastor, teacher, etc. in the social club today?

Interesting question. It's been my observation that we only do that with “pastor.” We don't normally greet someone as “Good morning, teacher Jane (or Joe).” Same with apostle or evangelist. The word “elder” is an adjective and simply describes the types of persons. Paul often refers to himself as an apostle, but we never read of anyone addressing him as “apostle Paul.”

Nor do we label others with specific gifts as healing, tongues, interpreters, miracles, administrators, word of knowledge(ers), etc. The gifts operate in the members; the words describe the gift. And even though Paul tells believers to “covet” the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 14), he never elevates one member above the other in the sense of importance:

…..and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 1Cor. 12:23-25

In fact, he specifically states that if a member “lacks,” more honor should be given so there will be no division (or gaps) in the body and they'll all have the same care or interest in one another's welfare. The practice of labeling a pastor a pastor is so deeply engrained in the church that it's not likely to end any time soon. I have no problem with this providing others in the body are not perceived as being on a different level or rank, but are valued equally because of the service they provide.

Is it a sin to be paid to preach the gospel weekly?why or why not?

Paul says numerous times that he did not want to burden the church for his maintenance and worked “day and night” to that end. 2Cor. 11:9; 12:13,14,16; 1Th. 2:9; 2Th. 3:8

Other scripture record that the churches did take up collections of some sort to send to Paul to meet his needs: Phil. 4:15-17, 2 Cor. 11: 8-9

Elsewhere, Jesus tells the disciples the laborer is worthy of his wages Luke 10:7. And in 1 Cor. 9: 6, 14, 17-18) Paul says it's not unreasonable for those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel and those who plant a vinyard are entitled to eat the fruit of their labor.

Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock? 1Cor. 9:6-7

So, my conclusion is that if a particular church can provide (willingly and cheerfully) the pastor with his maintenance, that's a good thing. If they cannot, he could work as Paul did until which time that might change. Paul's concern always seems to be that the church is not burdened:

….. nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you; not because we do not have the right to this, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you, so that you would follow our example. 2Thess. 3:8-9

I don't believe believers should be coerced into giving by the “you are robbing God” misinterpretation of the OT system of tithing to the Levites. But if their situation allows, they should give willingly and cheerfully what they can afford without causing their families to suffer.

Who is God more pleased with, someone who witnesses the lost souls or going to social club for "self-edification" weekly?

Why can't they be one and the same? The purpose of gathering together with fellow believers is for edification.

My favorite place in most churches is the lobby, you can actually talk to people, the real fellowshipping....

Yep! Difficult to fellowship during a service. Most churches do have times for fellowship set aside for the enjoyment of members; i.e. dinners and fun activities.

Others may disagree, but these are my thoughts as I see them in scripture.

[WOODHENOT3]

Hi Abiding, thank you for the time to answer the questions,,
Unfortunately, a lot of .Christians look up to a Pastor as a higher authority
Most Christians I know like to be under a pastor's authority rather then being God's authority.
Just as the Holy Spirit is to counsel, teach, convict, help, etc...I don't see too many people trusting that, do you?
God bless you,

I will read more scriptures on what you said about Paul, :)

[burien1]

This is an excellent thread. If I do say so myself.

[WOODHENOT3]

Abiding,
I agree with your insights, very well done....scriptures are clear how we should be wise in giving, family comes first.....

One of the verses that caught my attention...
Philippians 4:15-17
15 Now you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church shared with me concerning giving and receiving but you only. 16 For even in Thessalonica you sent aid once and again for my necessities. 17 Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that abounds to your account.

That is what someone with a good heart would do, instead of trying to make a profit for themselves.

Blessings, Woody

[WOODHENOT3]

Regarding to giving, here's another scripture,

Matthew 6:
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly

Many church goers today are showing their charity deeds, have you noticed?

Blessings, Woody

[mark s]

That's happened from the earliest days.

Remember Ananias and Saphira, or then there were Aaron's sons, offering "strange fire", trying to get into the act. Many people throughout history, or so it seems to me, have sought for glory what wasn't meant for them.

Speaking of pastors, it's been well said, in my opinion, that there are three huge ways pastors fall. This is when they try to take hold of the glory, or the gold, or the girls. And down they come. Of course, the reality is, either you are walking in the Spirit, or you are fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. And if you are not consistently walking in the Spirit, well, let's just say that I've not known God to be an enabler of bad behaviour in His children. In His love for us, He is faithful, and will do what is needed to cause us to walk the right path.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[WOODHENOT3]

There you go Mark,

[mark s]

Just remember . . . baby . . . bathwater . . . be sure to discard the right one . . .

[WOODHENOT3]

Here's another question,if a pastor knowingly knows the scriptural truth of the OT tithings, and he continue to deceive people for his sake, where do you think he stands with God? I have spoken to many pastors about this, and they tell me that, they were afraid to be out of a job if they told the truth. I always ask them, who do you rely on , the flocks or the Holy Spirit?

In Christ,Woody

[mark s]

Here's another question,if a pastor knowingly knows the scriptural truth of the OT tithings, and he continue to deceive people for his sake, where do you think he stands with God? I have spoken to many pastors about this, and they tell me that, they were afraid to be out of a job if they told the truth. I always ask them, who do you rely on , the flocks or the Holy Spirit?

In Christ,Woody

If this is true, they are obviously not acting as they should. He who knows to what is right and does not do it, to them it is sin.

I think that the churches where I've heard tithing taught sincerely believe it to be for today, though they are wrong to think so.

Anyone who purposely misrepresents God for monetary gain, well, let's just say this is clearly addressed in Scripture.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[WOODHENOT3]

Anyone who purposely misrepresents God for monetary gain, well, let's just say this is clearly addressed in Scripture.

there you go....and there is many scriptures addressing that....it is true that many pastors told me that, they don't want me telling the church, but I do anyway.....:)
I believe the "tithing and offerings" are taught in (my opinion) about 90% of churches today of "you will be cursed if you don't tiithe...etc.)...I live in upstate of NY and I cannot find one church that doesnt talk about the real truth of the OT tithings. I run into so many people who was crying they have no more money left, etc.....there is a lot of churches that does tithing rants....."give and get a hundredfold" etc...I have seen people give up their homes believing in the hundred fold and they became homeless.....there are so many deceive, it's just crazy......I believe God put me there for a reason, one is to learn the scriptural truths and the other is to help others in correction.

In Christ , Woody

[notworthcomparing]

Consumerism Christianity teaches that the
church exists for you. Biblical Christianity teaches
that you exist for the church. The church is not
about you, but you better be about it. The gifts
you have, you were given for your involvement in
the church, your participation in the gospel and the
part you have the privilege of playing in God’s great plan.

• Pray that we would not use or see the church as a social country club, a therapy center or a nominal charity.

• Pray that working together, we use our gifts as He intended and become an unmistakable community of people who love God and one another.

- Excerpt from – Watermark Community Church – Raise the Mark communion service 1/7/2012 – Todd Wagner.