Pre-trib timeline

[Seeker]

Hi RT,

You are specualting as well my friend. You are making the assumption that Christ's visible return must be the same event as the rapture/resurrection, just because clouds are involved and saints are involved in both. There is nothing in scripture that dictates both events must happen at the same time.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

No actually because I read it in the verse above. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven (visible return) and the dead in Christ shall rise first (resurrection).

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi RT,

We've already gone through this debate- I happen to disagree with your conclusions, and if every single one is raised on THE LAST DAY- then that would also rule out a post trib resurrection because "the last day" would be the very last day of the Millennium wouldn't it?

No time ends here.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Peace,
Seeker

[Resurrection Torchlight]

No time ends here.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So what you are claiming is that with the sounding of the seventh trumpet or rather just before it sounds- time ends? That is the last day? No more measuring time as we know it?

What about the 1000 years?

Revelation 20:4
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Aren't years a measure of time as we currently know it?

RT

[Seeker]

Hi RT,

So what you are claiming is that with the sounding of the seventh trumpet or rather just before it sounds- time ends? That is the last day? No more measuring time as we know it?

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I am not saying it the bible is. It says that an angel declares that there should be time no longer and that the mystery of God should be finished when the 7th angel sounds. If you have a problem with that take it up with the angel that said it. I simply believe every word means exactly what it says it means. So what I do next is go and look at the 7th trumpet to see if it makes sense that time ends at that point and if the mystery of God, as declared by the prophets, would appear to be finished.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

When the 7th angel sounds we see that the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. Since the angel says that the mystery of God will be finished when the 7th angel sounds I believe that the mystery of God is finished here at the 7th trumpet and there is time no longer after the sounding of the 7th trumpet just as the angel said in Rev 10. The mystery that God withheld from the prophets of old was the mystery of Christ and His work of redemption on the cross. The mystery is finished when Jesus finishes it and begins to reign as we see at the 7th trumpet.

As far as time no longer we see that Jesus begins to reign in His ever lasting kingdom at the 7th trumpet. The nations were angry and thy wrath has come (Armageddon), the time of the dead that they should be judged. When are the dead judged?

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

They are judged at the last day according to Jesus. After the last day there would be time no longer. Ok does that make sense from other scripture?

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jesus is annointed at the end of the 70th week. When does the 70th week end? There is a definite timeframe given of 7 years. In the middle of that 7 years we see the AOD. At the end of the 70th week we have Armageddon. By being given the specific number of days (7 yrs, 3 1/2 yrs, 1260 days, 1290 days, 1335 days. ...etc) we can know that there will be a last day prior to Jesus beginning His eternal reign. Time is useless when compared to eternity. Jesus begins His eternal reign at the 7th trumpet as we see Rev 10 referring to. That is why the trumpets have to occur in parallel with the seals and vials. Obviously we see Jesus reigning at the 7th trumpet. We see Jesus arriving after the 6th seal so that point in time is a little before the 7th trumpet where Jesus reigns.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Jesus hasn't arrived yet at Armageddon after the 6th vial. He says He comes as a thief and blessed are those that watch for Him. This is after they are being gathered to Armageddon when Jesus describes Himself coming as a thief. So this is about the same point as the 6th seal when we see Jesus just about ready to arrive after the cosmic signs/6th seal. Jesus is shown arriving after the 6th of each (seals/trumpets/vials) and reigning at the 7th of each. They run together in parallel which would make the 7th trumpet occur at the same time as the 7th vial.

Not sure what to say about the 1,000 years I just know that the angel swears by the Lord and says that there will be time no longer after the sounding of the 7th trumpet and I believe it means exactly what it says since there are only 2520 days in the last 7 years. The last day of the last 7 years is when the tribulation ends and immediately after that we see the cosmic signs which directly precede the return of Jesus. There is a finite amount of days given for the last 7 years after which Jesus begins His infinite reign.

I know you are busy as you have been saying and so am I for a few days. I still have some things to discuss out of your last group of posts concerning Matt 13. If you want to end this debate no problem it has been a good debate and I am sure someone else will pick it up again but I am not finished here yet. Time for a couple of days of R&R for me to recharge my batteries will see you in a couple days. Take care.

Peace,
Seeker

[Mrs. B]

Pre-trib timelinel.....

Seven is God's perfect number

He created earth and all things but on the 7th day He Rested....It was finished
So....we are at the end of the 6th thousand years.....and the seventh thousand years....we enter into Rest...

When we are born again....even if we die....we are still a live in Him.....we have entered into eternal life when we
are Born again....Born of the Spirit.....this is the Promise of the Father...and Jesus bought it for us with His Sinless life...His Blood Sacrifice paid our sin debt....

We live in a Time Zone.....seven days make one week......so at the end.....Time will be not more...
man lives in a Time Zone.....but there is no Time with God......
when time end....We will Live With Him.....in the New Heavaens and the New earth...

We have no fear of Death.......Because with the New Birth.....we will not die.....we have entered into
eternal life....but now until the end of time....we live in a time zone...


Mrs. B

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Not sure what to say about the 1,000 years I just know that the angel swears by the Lord and says that there will be time no longer after the sounding of the 7th trumpet and I believe it means exactly what it says since there are only 2520 days in the last 7 years. The last day of the last 7 years is when the tribulation ends and immediately after that we see the cosmic signs which directly precede the return of Jesus. There is a finite amount of days given for the last 7 years after which Jesus begins His infinite reign.

How can you ignore the 1000 years? If there is no measure of time as you claim the passage is saying then there is no way that there can be a measurement of time that happens afterward. Years are a measurement of time, based upon time as we know it, days and nights, the revolution of the earth around the sun. I would suggest that you are interpreting the passage incorrectly.

Revelation 10:4-7
4 When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them.”
5 Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven,
6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer,
7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.

The NAS version interprets it as "delay". But in any case the point is that the idea that there is no longer time is directly related to the statement that follows- "then the mystery of God is finished"- what is the mystery of God that is finished, whose time has come to an end?

Romans 16:25-26
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,
26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

Romans 11:25
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

Ephesians 3:1-7
1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—
2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you;
3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.

The Mystery that is finished is the gospel to the gentiles, there is no longer any time left, no longer any delay- the mystery of God is finished, the fullness of the gentiles has come in, the hardened heart of Israel has come to an end and they will now be saved. That is the time that has come to an end the time of salvation to the gentiles. Not time itself.

Enjoy your break- I am willing to continue our debate, I just will not have as much time to give to it, so my posts will likely be short and might not have all the scriptural backing I would like to give them.

RT

[Seeker]

Hi RT,

How can you ignore the 1000 years? If there is no measure of time as you claim the passage is saying then there is no way that there can be a measurement of time that happens afterward. Years are a measurement of time, based upon time as we know it, days and nights, the revolution of the earth around the sun. I would suggest that you are interpreting the passage incorrectly.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Easy I have many other scriptures you have not been shown yet. You seem to be confused and think I wrote the words that say there should be time no longer. I didn't write those words Jesus did and had an angel sware by the Lord and then pronounce that there would be time no longer at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Those are not my words as you keep trying to say. I simply believe that every single word in the bible means exactly what the common meaning for that word is. Nothing more and nothing less. You keep trying to read additional things into the scripture I am just sticking to the words that are given to me. The angel said there would be time no longer not me. I don't ignore the 1,000 years I just haven't told you my thoughts on them as of yet. I need to introduce more scriptures before doing that. I am getting ready for a trip so don't have the time to properly address the issues at this time. I will leave you with these scriptures though to consider while I am gone.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Eph_3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Col_4:3 Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Got to run will go into further details when I return especially the judgment which you seem to totally miss. The tares are taken first, the bad fish are removed from among the good. The judgment occurs when Jesus returns.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

When Jesus is revealed from heaven it is in flaming fire taking vengeance upon the sinners.

Peace,
Seeker

[Mrs. B]

Pre-trib timeline......

The seventh thousand years is when we rule and reign on this earth with Jesus.....all sin will be removed and the saints will rule with a rod of iron.....
if a man dies at hundred years.....he is like a child.....
the thousand years will be like in the beginning Creatopm.....men lived hundreds of years before they died.....after the flood men's life was shortened...

sin brought death...
in the millimun...... rightousness will reign.
but at the end of the thousand years......satain will be loose
you see....Jesus defeated the devil....and he will be bound
there will be no tempter.....until at the end of the thousand years then he satan will be loose for a season

and many will follow him at this time.....and Jesus with mouth, or with His spoken word bound him satan and cast him satan into the fire....
Time as we know it will be not more.......we will live in the presents of the Lord..
So shall we ever be....
There will be no more time......We live in a time zone.....but that willl end
and only the washed in the Blood of Jesus Believers will live with Him........Thousand, thousand and thousnds of thousand...all Believers from Adam
Those who sought God will be there....abound the Throne....Worshipping Him

Time as we know it will be no more....

Mrs. B

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi Mrs. B

I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say, are you saying that the beginning of the millennial kingdom marks the 7000th year?

First of all the idea that there will only be 7000 years is only a theory- albeit a compelling one. Secondly death is not abolished until the end of the 1000 years, yes people will live longer lives as they did during the pre flood days. But people will die during the millennium.

Isaiah 65:20
20 “No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.

The passage in Isaiah makes no claim that people will not die,in fact I think it does just the opposite- it only says that those who die at the age of 100 will be thought of as youth, and that those who don't reach 100 will be thought to be accursed. So there will be those who die at the age of 100 and those who die at younger ages, only those who die after reaching 100 will be thought to have died while they are still young. By the way the age of 100 is also a measurement of time- 100 years of time as we measure it.

There will also be those unrighteous who live on earth during the millennium:

Zechariah 14:16-19
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
18 If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Who are the nations that go against Jerusalem during the tribulation? They are listed throughout the OT, they will be the kingdom's aligned with the beast and against Jerusalem and Christ. Though the armies gathered at Armageddon will be destroyed at Christ's coming, there will be people who survive from within the nations who sent their armies there to fight. These people will likely enter the millennium bearing the mark of the beast, they will be required to worship the Lord at the Feast of Booths- if they do not they will be punished. They will not be counted among the righteous. But that is a topic for a whole other discussion, so please lets not start down that rabbit trail- I mention it here only to point out that the millennial reign of Christ will be a reign of righteousness, though not all who live on earth will be righteous. He will rule with a rod, the rod of discipline and that ime will still exist as we know it- these people will celebrate the feast of booths from year to year- again a reference of time, the feast of booths occurring on a specific day of the year in the Hebrew calendar- another proof that time will pass as it does now. Time will be no more when the Millennium comes to an end- whether or not that marks the 7000th year- only God knows for sure.

I am not certain if you agree with me or not, your post is a bit unclear- sorry if I assumed incorrectly.

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Seeker,

I am not ignoring the judgment at all, I just don't agree with you as to when that happens, and where in the order of things it comes. It seems that you are ignoring the points I bring up. They are valid points that cause me to question your interpretation, points that you do not answer, but gloss over or completely ignore. I am not reading things into scripture, rather I am looking at the overall scope of scripture, each passage exists in a context and each passage must agree with the rest of scripture, you cannot look at a few words as if they exist in a vacuum, you must look at them in light of what the rest of scripture teaches.

I do agree that I do make some assumptions- I will not deny that, but these assumptions are based on what I know scripture says and teaches as a whole, they are based on years of study and are not made flippantly just to prove or disprove a theory, I try to make assumptions that at least to me do not contradict the truths that I know scriptures teach- if you can show me how scripture contradicts my assumptions I am happy to learn from you, I know I have not arrived at full understanding and probably never will, in fact I am quite certain that some of my assumptions are likely wrong, I am truly open to others correcting me- in fact there is another thread in this forum where that exact thing happened- someone showed me scripture that cause me to doubt my assumption. That is why I like this site- I really have learned so much from participating in and reading the debates. (Thank you Holly for allowing this expression of ideas). Though at times I also find them a great source of frustration as well I hope I am growing in that area and don't become frustrated to the point of making accusations against anyone. When and if I get to that point I know it's time to end the discussion.

I am not certain that this debate will resolve anything or bring us any closer to agreement with each other, but I am willing to continue as time affords each of us, if only for the sake of those who may be reading and seeking a better understanding.

However, before we go any further on our current point of debate I would like to hear your explanation concerning your idea that time as we know it ends at the 7th trumpet and the seeming contradiction concerning the 1000 years.

Okay- now I have to run- moving my oldest son out of the house- my first chick has left the nest- a happy sad moment

Is your trip business or pleasure?
Either way I hope you enjoy it and that it blesses you in some way.
I will be here when you get back (barring any unforeseen events or the rapture! Hee hee)

RT

[Mrs. B]

Pre-trib timeline.....

What I am saying......is when your give your heart and life to Jesus and your are Born Again.....even if I die in this physical body....I am still alive in the Spirit......Once we are born again....we never die....we may leave our body and go to be with the Lord.....but I Am still alive....so I wait for the first ressurrection for my new body......

I believe time as we now know ......it will be a total of 7000 years...
when Jesus was born was 4000 years to now 6000...(I'm rounding off the years....but there about)
so from the creation to now is about 6000 years........and we know the millimum will be 1000 years...
this comes to a total of 7000 years....

God created the first week.....7 days
But on the 7th day he rested....
6 days he created but on the 7th day He Rested...

So I see 6000 years of man on this earth....then the Sabbath or the Rest.... then the 7th thousand as the millimun....

This is when the Kingdom of God will be established.....durilng this thousand years...Jesus Prayed...Thy Will be done thy will be done on earth as it is In Heaven......we will have heaven on earth....Jesus Prayed this....so this 1000 we will Rule and Reign with Jesus in our new bodies.......and also the natural man that survived through the ?? should say the destruction of the earth....

This is when we will rule and reign on this earth with Jesus.....Thy Kingdom Come...Thy Will be done on earth
as it is in Heaven.....
I believe that this Earth will be like the Garden...before sin
There will be no curse....
There will be no temptation because the devil will be bound...
It will be like God intended before mans fall....but at the end of the 1000 years satan will be loose and men that are alive will be tempted and some will follow the devil...which God, Jesus will destroy with the spoken word...with fire.

Then The New Heavenly Jerusalem will come down....and we will live and dwell with the Lord....forever

Mrs. B

[Mrs. B]

Pre-trib timeline

Read Zech. chapter 13 and 14...
This will or most possible be fulfilled in our day....

Zech 14:1....Behold, the day of the Lord Cometh....and thy spoil shall be divided in the Midst of thee....

2....For I will gather ALL Nations against Jerusalem to battle; (Jesus said when you see the Abomination that maketh desolate....get out of Jerusalem...Matt 24)
and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city....

3....Then shalll the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle..
4...And his feet shall sand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which before Jerusalem on the East, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst theeof toward the east and toward the west...and there shall be a very Great Valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south...
5b....and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee...(this is the ressurrection)
6...And it shall come to pass in that day..that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7..But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to passthat at evening time it shall be light...
9....And the Lord shall be King over all the Earth: in that day shall there be One Lord, and His name One...
Zech. 13:9...And I will bring the thrid part through the fire..and will Refine them as Silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My Name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is My People; and they shall say, The Lord is My God....
The sun and moon will be darkened.....the earth will be moved.....

The Refining I believe is what we call the Tribulation.....God will Refine us as silver is refined and tried as Gold is tried...and I will bring the thrid part through the fire....He is going to Refine us....and Make us While.....
He will Have a People that Love Him....even to death ...I know this is not popular.....but I believe that He will Hava a People that will Love Him....and this Generation is no better....Now just for a moment think about all the wars..and the suffering that all nations have suffered in our life time....Millions have died....but because we live in this Beautiful Country we do not realize alll the suffering that has been in our generation....War and famenn great suffering.....But we deceive ourselves thinking we will escape.....This Generation shall not pass away until all this is fulfilled...

Mrs. B

[Mrs. B]

Pre-trib timelile.....

This is a Post from 2008.....I'm pasting it today....Mrs. B






Re: question about 7 year peace treaty


by Mrs. B on Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:26 pm

Been Camping.......be gone again....bb

Sue M....

And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.....:

Jesus shall confirm the Blood Covenant with many......this is the work...or short work that Paul wrote about in Romans...

Romans 9:27....Esaias also cried concerning Israel,
Though the number of the Children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
A REMNANT SHALL BE SAVED:

28.....FOR HE (JESUS) WILL FINISH THE WORK, and cut it Short in Righteousness:
Because....A SHORT WORK....Will the Lord Make upon the Earth....

The Gospel first was Preached to the Jews......then the Gospel was turned unto the Gentiles...
But....
Romans 11:25.....For I would not, Brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that Blindness in part is happened to Israel , UNTIL the Fulness of the Gentiles be come in,

26......And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written,
THERE SHALL COME OUT OF SION THE DELIVER, AND shall Turn away Ungodliness from Jacob:

27.....FOR THIS IS MY COVENANT UNTO THEM.....when I shall take away their sins.

28.....As Concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
BUT...as touching the Eletion, they are BELOVED FOR THE FATHERS' SAKE....(Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob the Fathers)

29....For the Gifts and Calling of God are without Repentance.....


This is the Short Work....
Daniel 9:27.....And He (Jesus) shall confirm the Blood Covenant with many for one week:

This is the Short Work Paul is talking about.......letting the blindness of Israel eyes be opened

and in the midst of the week He Jesus shall cause the Sacrifice and the Oblation to Cease.....

The Doors of salvation or shoot.....Why? and for the Overspreading of Abominations.....He Shall make it Desolate, Even until the Consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolation.....


After the Sins of the Gentiles are full....God is doing a short work with Israel.....for the fathers sake....God Promised Abraham.....and God is faithful...

Israel celebrated 60 years back in the Home Land.........this leaves 10 to make Seventy......It is my belief that the Next Ten years will be the wrapping up of the end........

bb

willl not be here for maybe two weeks.....Mrs. B

Posts: 1451
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pmTop
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Re: question about 7 year peace treaty
by Mrs. B on Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:45 pm

I believe the War.....World War 2.....was like the beginning of the end....

the suffering of the Jew is unbelievable.......

Read Isaiah 26 and 27....

Is. 27:9....By this therefore shall the Iniquity of Jacob be purged;
and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up...

10.....Yet the defenced city shall be desolate, and the habitation forsaken, and left like a wilderness:
there shall be calf feed, and there shall he lie down, and consume the branches thereof...

11.....When the broughts thereof are withered, they shall be broken off:
the women come, and set them on fire:
for it is a people of No Understanding:
Therefore he that made them will not have mercy on them, and the that formed them will shew them no favour...

12.....And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be Gathered One by One, O Ye Children of Israel...

ONE BY ONE....O YE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL

13......And it shall come to pass that day, that the Great Trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the Holy Mount at Jerusalem.....


Abraham looked for a City.....whose builder and Maker was God....not Jerusalem we see today.....Abraham looked for a Heavenly City.......A Heavenly Jerusalem....The New Holy City coming down from God.....New Jerusalem....Mrs. B

Posts: 1451
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm

[Seeker]

Hi RT,

I never responded to your post from last friday concerning the parables of Matt 13. So I will start back there and work my way up to your latest posts.

Actually I see that this parable presents a problem with any resurrection that occurs before the white throne Judgment, as it shows the ingathering of the wicked before the ingathering of the righteous.

Matthew 13:28-30
28 “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
29 “But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”


Here you have the heart of the parable- both tares and wheat grow together in the field of the world until harvest, we are told that the tares are the sons of the evil one and the wheat are the righteous- the sons of the kingdom, the harvest is the end of the age. This is clearly a harvest of souls. It is important to understand that the reaping is the cutting off of the life of the grain and it would represent a person's death not necessarily their resurrection. Gathering in would represent IMO a resurrection event. The tares are gathered first and burned in the fire and the wheat is then gathered into the Lord's barn, there is only one resurrection shown to occur that involves the wicked and that occurs after the 1000 year reign when the present heavens and earth are destroyed and the white throne judgment occurs.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Who is hiding from Jesus here the wicked or the saints? It is the wicked so they are involved in this resurrection here at the 6th seal.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The nice thing about this parable is that Jesus gives us the interpretation for it so we can know exactly what it means.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus says that the good seed are the children of the kingdom. Both are to grow together until the harvest. If you have the harvest after the 1,000 years then the children of the kingdom aren't reigning with Jesus through the 1,000 years because you don't have them resurrected until after the 1,000 years. Jesus sends the angels to remove all things that offend and then the righteous shine in the kingdom. The tares are removed first from among the wheat.

We've already gone through this debate- I happen to disagree with your conclusions, and if every single one is raised on THE LAST DAY- then that would also rule out a post trib resurrection because "the last day" would be the very last day of the Millennium wouldn't it?

Oh but you see it depends on how you interpret "the last day" doesn't it? You interpret it in light of your own view, while I interpret in light of mine.

Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

We don't have to define who is included in the "last day resurrection" it is given to us. Martha is under the impression that there will be a resurrection at the "last day" and that her brother would be part of it. She expected the dead in Christ to rise at the last day.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi RT,

This reaping in Matthew's parable is performed by angels, which seems to contradict the passage in Revelation 14:14-16 which seems to show us Christ doing the reaping:

Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Peace,
Seeker

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Who is hiding from Jesus here the wicked or the saints? It is the wicked so they are involved in this resurrection here at the 6th seal.

Hello Seeker- hope you had a nice trip. My son is all moved out- it's weird. I have a little time this morning since my plans got canceled so I'll try to answer as best I can.

I agree that it is the wicked that are hiding- but how are they involved in any resurrection? I don't see them resurrected here, but rather see them hiding themselves in caves and under rocks. If they are resurrected as the tares here- I fail to see how this passage is showing that is the case.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The nice thing about this parable is that Jesus gives us the interpretation for it so we can know exactly what it means.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus says that the good seed are the children of the kingdom. Both are to grow together until the harvest. If you have the harvest after the 1,000 years then the children of the kingdom aren't reigning with Jesus through the 1,000 years because you don't have them resurrected until after the 1,000 years. Jesus sends the angels to remove all things that offend and then the righteous shine in the kingdom. The tares are removed first from among the wheat.

Yes I agree both grow together until harvest. But first of all there is more than one harvest season. The harvest spoken of in the parable is the wheat harvest. So the parable refers specifically to the wheat harvest. There are also other harvest seasons in Israel that were central to specific spiritually holy days. In fact three of the major feasts of Israel revolved around these harvests. The Barley first fruits harvest, the wheat first fruits harvest and the end of the wheat harvest. The respective feasts are Unleavened bread, Pentecost and Tabernacle, where all males were required to make pilgrimage to Jerusalem to celebrate the national feasts. An interesting little fact about the first fruits harvest is that it was during the later temple era harvested by the priesthood, the high priest would as part of the ceremony go to a specific field sown just for that purpose and reap the first fruits of the barley and also the wheat harvest. Which might explain why the description on Revelation 14:14 depicts the Son of man as a reaper- He as the great high priest is harvesting the first fruits who will after the tribulation be gathered into the heavenly tabernacle. He is bringing about their death as he swings his sickle which also explains the verse just before it that says:

Revelation 14:13
13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

The angel in Rev. 14 that reaps is responsible for cutting off the life of the wicked. Again there is no gathering into the Lord's barn, rather the wicked are gathered and thrown into the great wine vat of God's wrath. These are the grapes from the vine of the earth- the vine is often a depiction of the nation of Israel- Jerusalem to be specific, this is a cutting off of the wicked people of Israel. This is not the lake of fire, but rather it shows the manner of their death, they will die as a result of God's wrath. And at least IMO the reaping done by the Son of Man is a harvest of righteous souls who die as first fruits of the wheat harvest during the tribulation.

The harvest in the parable is the cutting off of the life of the grain so represents the death of the person. So in the parable the angels are reaping a final harvest of wheat. It is not a first fruits harvest, because tares would not be gathered as part of a first fruits harvest, which was gathered in a much smaller quantity to be brought into the temple to be made into the two loaves of leavened bread, which were offered as a wave offering before the Lord. It is the general wheat harvest that is being spoken of in the parable- the tares growing up with the wheat until all the wheat is ripened, the tares are gathered first and burned and the wheat is gathered into the Lord's barn. This gathering represents the resurrection of the soul/body into the heavenly tabernacle. It is not just a reaping that occurs here in the parable but also a gathering in/up. The wicked are not just harvested/reaped/ cut off, They are gathered up and burned in a furnace of fire where there is gnashing of teeth- this is their eternal condemnation.

The events of the opening of the sixth seal say nothing concerning a resurrection of the wicked, as you pointed out- they are hiding themselves from God- not being raised to stand before Him for judgment. There is no mention whatsoever about them being burned or even any description of them being judged. They are hiding because they fear judgment, they fear the wrath of God, but it doesn't actually describe them experiencing judgment. And even if they were experiencing judgment, it would be earthly and in their physical bodies, not eternal as is described in the parable.

However we do see the wicked being raised after the 1000 years, where John plainly describes it in terms that are obvious to all. The wicked are raised and cast into the lake of fire, just like the parable explains.

We've already gone through this debate- I happen to disagree with your conclusions, and if every single one is raised on THE LAST DAY- then that would also rule out a post trib resurrection because "the last day" would be the very last day of the Millennium wouldn't it?

Oh but you see it depends on how you interpret "the last day" doesn't it? You interpret it in light of your own view, while I interpret in light of mine.

As for the children of the kingdom reigning- you said

Jesus says that the good seed are the children of the kingdom. Both are to grow together until the harvest. If you have the harvest after the 1,000 years then the children of the kingdom aren't reigning with Jesus through the 1,000 years because you don't have them resurrected until after the 1,000 years.

That is not the case- I most certainly do have them reigning with Jesus:
Know as I have explained my view- the Christ first fruits (barley harvest) are raised to life first before the 70th week, they begin to reign with Christ at that time, then at the end of the 70th week the tribulation saints are raised (wheat first fruits?)and they begin their reign with Christ at that time.

On earth all of Israel will be saved, though they will live as mortals through the millennium they will still as mortals reign with Christ on earth. When they die during the millennium their souls will remain in the repository for righteous souls and then at the end of the 1000 years they will be raised and will be added to New Jerusalem as living building blocks of the eternal city.

So all the children of the kingdom will reign with Christ during the millennium whether they have been raptured, resurrected or are living as mortals on the earth. The Millennial reign is not dependent upon what state the believers are in, it is dependent upon when Christ returns visibly to earth to establish He visible earthly reign. Whatever state the believer happens to be in when that happens they will in that state reign with Him.

Joh 11:21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
Joh 11:22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
Joh 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

We don't have to define who is included in the "last day resurrection" it is given to us. Martha is under the impression that there will be a resurrection at the "last day" and that her brother would be part of it. She expected the dead in Christ to rise at the last day.

I agree though it still remains undefined what the term "last day" means.

Perhaps the last day is a reference to a time period in which these resurrection events happen. Beginning with Christ's resurrection and ending with the final resurrection at the last judgment.

Rather than looking at it as a specific day of 24 hours we need to see it as a last "period of time". I cannot say exactly what is meant by it . All I know is that scripture clearly teaches that there is more than one resurrection event. Christ was raised, those who are in Christ will be raised, those who belong to Christ will be raised after them when He comes, also the two witnesses will be raised and then comes the end, when the wicked (tares) shall be raised along with those who live and die during the millennium. The wicked are cast into the lake of fire and the righteous inherit the new heavens and earth.The linear and chronological reading of the revelation supports the passage in 1 Corinthians 15.

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

However, before we go any further on our current point of debate I would like to hear your explanation concerning your idea that time as we know it ends at the 7th trumpet and the seeming contradiction concerning the 1000 years.

Thanks in advance- now I have to get moving, have errands to run and time is a wasting



RT

[Seeker]

Hi RT,

I agree that it is the wicked that are hiding- but how are they involved in any resurrection? I don't see them resurrected here, but rather see them hiding themselves in caves and under rocks. If they are resurrected as the tares here- I fail to see how this passage is showing that is the case.

The wicked aren't resurrected they are removed as in killed.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

When Jesus is revealed they will all be destroyed just as was the days of Lot. See that is what I was trying to say before. You don't seem to understand what happens when Jesus returns. The wicked aren't resurrected at that time they are killed at that time.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

The day that Noah entered the ark the flood came and destroyed them all. The flood didn't come and resurrect them all. So will it be when Jesus returns. When Jesus arrives all the sinners are killed.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Here we see Jesus leaving heaven with the armies of heaven following Him. They are heading to earth with the wrath of God and to destroy the remaining sinners at Armageddon. Jesus does not return to earth to resurrect the sinners.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

When Jesus is revealed from heaven it is in flaming fire taking vengeance on the sinners not resurrecting them.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here we see the day of His wrath has come. When Jesus returns following the cosmic signs it is the great day of the wrath of the Lamb just as scripture says it is.

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The earth and all the works of the earth are burnt up when Jesus fulfills His promise to return. Jesus torches the earth upon return which removes the sinners.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Jesus destroys the AC with the brightness of His arrival. This happens at Armageddon.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Here we see Jesus still saying He comes as a thief at the time of Armageddon. He then arrives and destroys the AC with the brightness of His coming as we see in Rev 19 at Armageddon. In all cases we see that the first order of Jesus upon arrival is the removal of the tares just as the parable of Matt 13 says. Nowhere in scripture does it show the saints removed before the sinners. Removal is destruction as we can see in all these scriptures. They are not resurrected until after the 1,000 years at the second death.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The tares have to be removed before the saints shine in the kingdom. The tares are removed from the earthly kingdom not resurrected. We see the same thing in the net parable.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Again the bad are taken from among the good. Both groups present when the bad are removed from the good. If you place the removal of the bad after the 1,000 years then you place the good at that time as well. Both groups have to be there for the wicked to be removed. Your scenario has the wicked surviving the last 7 years and being removed at the end of the 1,000 years. That just is not supported in scripture.

Peace,
Seeker

[Resurrection Torchlight]

The wicked aren't resurrected they are removed as in killed.

The passage doesn't say anything about them being killed, only that they hide

Revelation 6:15-17
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

The phrase "able to stand" does not imply their impending death. It is saying who can stand in the midst of what they claim is happening- hence the reason they are hiding. They aren't dying they are hiding.

Also then where do you see their resurrection if they are only killed at this point, then where in the passage are they shown to be resurrected? Revelation 6 says nothing of it, nor does Revelation 7, we don't see a resurrection of the wicked until after the millennial reign- correct?

RT

[Seeker]

Hi RT,

Also then where do you see their resurrection if they are only killed at this point, then where in the passage are they shown to be resurrected? Revelation 6 says nothing of it, nor does Revelation 7, we don't see a resurrection of the wicked until after the millennial reign- correct?

They aren't resurrected till after the 1,000 years but they are killed before the 1,000 years. The tares are gathered at Armageddon for their destruction.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

God gathers the AC and company (tares) to Armageddon where He destroys them.

Zep 3:6 I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.
Zep 3:7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.
Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

God gathers the tares to Armageddon and destroys them there.

Peace,
Seeker

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Again the bad are taken from among the good. Both groups present when the bad are removed from the good. If you place the removal of the bad after the 1,000 years then you place the good at that time as well. Both groups have to be there for the wicked to be removed. Your scenario has the wicked surviving the last 7 years and being removed at the end of the 1,000 years. That just is not supported in scripture.

My scenario does nothing of the kind, it is not the removal we are concerned with it is the gathering in, the resurrection. The removal is simply their death. The wicked and the righteous die every day and have been dying every day since the fall of Adam. The reaping described in the parable is is a particular event in which many are killed at once. It is the culmination of a particular harvest for souls.

The point of the parable is that the wicked are planted among the righteous, and that when the time for harvest comes those who are on earth are all reaped together. The reason the in-gathering or resurrection has to happen after the 1000 years is because that is the only place where scripture shows the wicked being resurrected, and if the wicked are gathered first- resurrected to judgment and burned in the furnace of fire (AKA lake of fire) followed by the righteous, then that is the only place this resurrection described in the parable can fit.

I believe that the armies of those gathered against the Lord at Armageddon will be killed, many will die at the Lord's coming.Their souls then reside in the repository for the wicked- Hades/death. But there will be wicked who do survive into the millennium, who will be subject to His rule. They will have descendants who live throughout the millennium they are the offspring of those nations who went against Israel- Gog and Magog- these descendants are those who are described here:

Revelation 20:7-10
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

After they are "reaped" by fire from God they are gathered out by the angels. Now here is something I must concede- the angels in the parable are not actually said to be doing the reaping- only the gathering, I didn't notice that before- my mistake. So the gathering is performed by angels- somehow they aid in the resurrection.

Anyway, these descendants of Gog and Magog will repopulate the earth during the millennium, and the devil when he is released will decieve them and bring them together for war again- against Jerusalem. They will be reaped and will then be resurrected for the white throne judgment.

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

They aren't resurrected till after the 1,000 years but they are killed before the 1,000 years. The tares are gathered at Armageddon for their destruction.

Okay now we're getting somewhere. So you admit that this resurrection of the wicked occurs at the end of the millennium, the parable shows that they are gathered to be burned BEFORE the righteous are gathered into the Lord's barn?

Matthew 13:29-30
29 “But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

Matthew 13:39-43
39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40 “So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41 “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 “Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Clearly the wicked are receiving their eternal judgment by being cast into the lake(furnace) of fire. They are clearly gathered (resurrected) FIRST. The righteous are gathered (resurrected)SECOND and brought into the lord's barn.

barn.”
Strong's Greek #596
596 ἀποθήκη [apotheke /ap·oth·ay·kay/] n f. From 659; GK 630; Six occurrences; AV translates as “barn” four times, and “garner” twice. 1 a place in which anything is laid by or up. 2 a storehouse, granary.

The "barn is the storehouse, that the grain is brought into. The heavenly tabernacle.

The Lord's storehouse on earth was in the temple:

Nehemiah 10:34-39
34 Likewise we cast lots for the supply of wood among the priests, the Levites and the people so that they might bring it to the house of our God, according to our fathers’ households, at fixed times annually, to burn on the altar of the Lord our God, as it is written in the law;
35 and that they might bring the first fruits of our ground and the first fruits of all the fruit of every tree to the house of the Lord annually,
36 and bring to the house of our God the firstborn of our sons and of our cattle, and the firstborn of our herds and our flocks as it is written in the law, for the priests who are ministering in the house of our God.
37 We will also bring the first of our dough, our contributions, the fruit of every tree, the new wine and the oil to the priests at the chambers of the house of our God, and the tithe of our ground to the Levites, for the Levites are they who receive the tithes in all the rural towns.
38 The priest, the son of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the chambers of the storehouse.
39 For the sons of Israel and the sons of Levi shall bring the contribution of the grain, the new wine and the oil to the chambers; there are the utensils of the sanctuary, the priests who are ministering, the gatekeepers and the singers. Thus we will not neglect the house of our God.

The heavenly tabernacle is the Lord's barn. When these righteous are brought into the heavenly tabernacle they will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their father. They will receive their white robes of glorious light just as those who preceded them in the resurrection did.

How is it possible that the righteous are resurrected after the millennium when according to your view, there is only one place where the righteous are resurrected, which is at the end of the the tribulation 1000 years earlier? And how is it that if there is only one "last day" as you claim where the resurrection of the righteous happens then how can there be two different times shown in scripture where a resurrection of the righteous takes place?

You cannot claim that the gathering is merely speaking of death, because it is clear from the parable that it is an end of the age event and that the wicked are receiving their eternal punishment and the righteous are receiving their eternal reward. It is certainly a resurrection event described in the parable.

RT


(Apologies again- it appears that the reapers are also the gatherers-as per verse 14:30) I am confusing myself

[Seeker]

Hi RT,

That is not the case- I most certainly do have them reigning with Jesus:
Know as I have explained my view- the Christ first fruits (barley harvest) are raised to life first before the 70th week, they begin to reign with Christ at that time, then at the end of the 70th week the tribulation saints are raised (wheat first fruits?)and they begin their reign with Christ at that time.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ was the firstfruits just as we see in 15:20. Your firstfruits is located in the wrong place. Christ is risen from the dead and become the firstfruits. Your barley harvest occured around 2,000 years ago.

Peace,
Seeker

[Resurrection Torchlight]

That is not the case- I most certainly do have them reigning with Jesus:

Know as I have explained my view- the Christ first fruits (barley harvest) are raised to life first before the 70th week, they begin to reign with Christ at that time, then at the end of the 70th week the tribulation saints are raised (wheat first fruits?)and they begin their reign with Christ at that time.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ was the firstfruits just as we see in 15:20. Your firstfruits is located in the wrong place. Christ is risen from the dead and become the firstfruits. Your barley harvest occured around 2,000 years ago.

Peace,
Seeker

Seeker we've been around this one already, but you fail to acknowledge the obvious. You say you take the word for what is says- what it plainly states is that - in Adam ALL die- who is "all"? That would be everyone right? Everyone dies. Then it goes on to say that in Christ ALL shall be made alive, who is the "All" who shall be made alive? The same group of people- everyone will be made alive. BUT every man in his own order- who is "EVERY MAN"- everyone!!!! The passage then goes on to explain the order that every-man will be made alive- each in his own order- again each being a part of the all who will be made alive.

The Christ firstfruits are the first to be raised- the first part of the "ALL" or "EVERY MAN". this is not a reference to Christ Himself. Because these that the passage is speaking of "Shall be made alive", future tense, Whereas Christ
"NOW IS" risen from the dead- past tense. How could the Christ firstfruits be speaking of Christ Himself when He is already risen? These Christ firstfruits shall be made alive in the future, they shall be resurrected. Then after this part of the "all" is made alive then the next part of the "all" to be raised are those who are Christ's at His coming. These are two parts of the group that makes up "every man" who will be made alive- resurrected. The whole point of the passage is to point out the order of the resurrection. There is an order to it- Christ the head was first, Christ the first fruits (His body) are second, followed by those who are Christ's at His Coming and then comes the end. This is the obvious meaning of the text which you continue to deny.

Let me try to make this a bit easier to understand.

One day everyone will enter the room, the first to enter the room was Jon; he put his head inside the door, he was the first one to enter the room- he is now in the room holding the door open with his head inside the room and his body is outside the room, then after a while the rest of Jon's body shall enter the room- he is still the first to enter the room, but now it is not only his head inside the door but his whole self. Later Jon's family enters the room, they are the second to enter. After them and later still others enter the room- they are the last to enter.

As I pointed out already scripture is replete with passages that describe the church as the body of Christ, we are spiritually IN HIM, we are His functioning body on earth. He is the head over us, but we are His body. In fact Paul mentions this concept twice before this passage in his first epistle to the Corinthians- the very same epistle in which this order of the resurrection is found (chapters 10 and 12). If you deny this then I would have to seriously question your understanding of scripture and doctrine. The Corinthians would have read in the same letter the concept of the church being the body of Christ and when they came to this part of Paul's letter they would have understood it to mean the same. This is why context is so important. The context of this part of Paul's letter to them was that he was trying to convince them that there most certainly is a resurrection of the dead, and his proof was that Christ was raised from the dead, and in Him all will be made alive- because He was made alive. He then goes on to describe the order in which all will be made alive. This is the simple and obvious reading of the passage. The Christ firstfuits are directly related to "All who will be made alive" and "each in his own order".

Every man will be made alive, but each in their own order, first the Christ firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming then those who will be raised at the end. It is very simple but it does throw a wrench into your theory, which might be what keeps you from admitting it is so.

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

How is it possible that the righteous are resurrected after the millennium when according to your view, there is only one place where the righteous are resurrected, which is at the end of the the tribulation 1000 years earlier? And how is it that if there is only one "last day" as you claim where the resurrection of the righteous happens then how can there be two different times shown in scripture where a resurrection of the righteous takes place?

You cannot claim that the gathering is merely speaking of death, because it is clear from the parable that it is an end of the age event and that the wicked are receiving their eternal punishment and the righteous are receiving their eternal reward. It is certainly a resurrection event described in the parable.

However, before we go any further on our current point of debate I would like to hear your explanation concerning your idea that time as we know it ends at the 7th trumpet and the seeming contradiction concerning the 1000 years.

Thanks in advance- now I have to get moving, have errands to run and time is a wasting

I keep answering your questions but you are not answering mine- now please answer my questions or I shall no longer participate in this discussion.

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I am seeking Seeker- where are you???? Hope I didn't scare you off

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Okay I guess Seeker is no where to be found, but here are a few questions for those still reading this thread:

Luke 21:34-36
34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap;
35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.
36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

regarding the underlined section of the passage-

Question 1- What does it mean to "have strength to escape"?

Question 2- what are the "all these things that are about to take place"?

Question 3- what does it mean to "stand before the Son of Man"?

RT

[Exit40]

regarding the underlined section of the passage-

Question 1- What does it mean to "have strength to escape"?

Question 2- what are the "all these things that are about to take place"?

Question 3- what does it mean to "stand before the Son of Man"?

RT

Hi RT. Here is the verse in KJV...

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

1. I don't think our own strength has anything to do with this, but by being accounted worthy, and not by our own accounting, we will be able to escape, flee as directed probably. Verse 19 is probably critical to this...

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

This goes to the Patience and Faith of the Saints, enduring Faithfully, and occupying til He comes, being aware of the times and events coming to pass.

2. I believe all these things that will come to pass, as expressed in verse 35 as a snare that comes on all those who dwell on the earth, are described throughout the chapter.

3. I believe this means just what it says. However the timing and location of this event would be in question, but still, as a part of being counted worthy, it is a gift bestowed rather than a goal achieved. I get the distinct impression it occurs during the things coming to pass, as opposed to prior or post, but it seems fairly hard to nail down. The Greek would seem to lend itself to an 'at the beginning stages of', if I understand the explanations of the Greek.

God Bless You

David

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Luke 21:34-36
34 “Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap;
35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.
36 “But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

regarding the underlined section of the passage-

Question 1- What does it mean to "have strength to escape"?

Question 2- what are the "all these things that are about to take place"?

Question 3- what does it mean to "stand before the Son of Man"?

So I finally have a little time- (the holiday week was very busy). Here are my thoughts:

1- Strength to escape- The word "strength" means to be fully able, strong enough to overcome or prevail.
The word "escape" means- to flee out of or away from something.
So the passage says to keep alert (awake)at all times, praying that you will be fully able to overcome to flee out of or away from all these things. In other words we as believers are to be spiritually awake at all times persevering and growing in faith and praying that we will escape the events that Luke describes. This "escape" is promised in the Revelation here:

Revelation 3:10
10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

having strength is keeping the word of Christ's perseverance and because we have strength to persevere in faith we will be kept from the hour of testing that is about to come upon all the earth- similar phrasing to:

Luke 21:35
35 for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.

2- these things that are about to take place- Luke describes many things that are about to take place throughout the passage beginning in verse 6 through 35.

a. The temple will lay in ruin, not one stone upon another (verse 6)
b. False Christs (verse 8)
c. rumors of wars and disturbances ( verse 9)
d. Nations and kingdoms against one another (verse 10)
e. great earthquakes (verse 11)
f. plagues (verse 11)
g. famines (verse 11)
h. terrors (verse 11)
i. great signs from heaven (verse 11)
j. persecution (verse 12) though Luke says that this particular persecution would occur before effects a-i. I personally believe this was speaking directly to the disciples, who the Lord was addressing.

k.Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies,Israel led captive into all the nations, and jerusalem will be trampled underfoot until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. (The days of vengeance) (verses 20-24)
l. Signs in the sun, moon and stars (verse 25)
m. dismay among nations, perplexity or lack of understanding at the roaring of the sea and waves. (verse 25)
n. terror among men because of events that are about to come upon the earth- the powers of heaven will be shaken. (verse 26) This "shaking" might imply the casting down of the dragon to the earth.
o. the men of earth will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (verse 28)

Jesus said that when these things begin to happen that His disciples should lift up their heads because their redemption is drawing near. He goes on to compare these "things" to leaves that appear on the trees before summer (in the spring) that the appearance of the "leaves" indicates that summer is near, summer being the beginning of the harvest (of the trees). Summer being analogous to the kingdom. So when these events begin to happen recognize that the kingdom is near.

Jesus then goes on to say in verse 34, that believers are to keep on guard so that "that day" will not come upon them suddenly like a trap, because it will come upon all who dwell on the earth.......BUT they as believers have an opportunity to escape all these things that are about to take place. The question then is what things? Are they all the things listed above, or just things referring to "that day"? And what is "that day"?

I purposely divided the list a-j and then k-o, I believe that the things that believers will escape from are those things which make up the days of vengeance. (See Is 13:6, 34:8; 35:4; 47:3; 61:2;63:3,4 Jer 51:6) We know that believers throughout the church age have endured the ruin of the temple, wars, earthquakes,false Christs, plagues, terrors, famines, and the disciples were told they would suffer persecution, right from the start of their ministry, scripture tells us that all who desire to live a godly life will suffer persecution (2 Tim 3:12). There have even been signs in the heavens, at least over the centuries things that people might have interpreted as signs like comets, meteors, eclipses, celestial alignments and so on. We even see them and speculate concerning the celestial events and what they might mean for us today. It's interesting that the signs in verse 11 are said to be "from heaven" while the signs in verse 25 are said to be "in the sun moon and stars" a distinction that sets them apart from one another.
I personally believe that these things in the list a-j are represented in the book of the Revelation by the seal horses as well as the other seals. And that the "escape" occurs after the sixth seal.

3.to stand before the Son of Man- The Son of Man is as we all know a reference to Jesus Christ, so if believers escape from or flee away from or out of something they flee to something, and that is to stand before the Son of Man. But what exactly does that mean?

I think that the Revelation says pretty clearly the event that this points to:

Revelation 7:9
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

The Lord after His death ascended to be seated on His throne in heaven:

Mark 16:19
19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:1-3
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Hebrews 8:1-2
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

To stand before the Son of Man- is to stand before His throne in heaven. Believers escape from the things which are about to happen on the earth to stand before the heavenly seat of our Lord's throne.

This escape must take place before "all these things" take place. Therefore the "rapture" as we call it cannot happen after these events described by Luke, but before them. This would rule out a "post trib" rapture in my opinion.

RT

[Truthinlove]

Here's what I use to refute pretrib......Scriptures!


Compare these Scriptures.....

The well-known rapture passage

1 Thess. 4:15 - 5:2 "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night."

Paul states that in regards to the timing of the rapture/resurrection, it will occur at a time known as the Day of the Lord. Ok....when will the Day of the Lord occur?

2 Thess. 2:1-4 "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

The man of lawlessness (aka: antichrist) will defile the temple at the midpoint of the last 7 year period. Therefore, so far we see that the Day of the Lord (when the rapture/resurrection will occur) will not happen until sometime after the antichrist starts his terrible persecution.


God will give us a clear sign as to the beginning of the Day of the Lord when the rapture/resurrection will take place.

Joel 2:31 "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes."

So, when in the time-line of end-time events will this sign occur?

Matt. 24:29-31 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I didn't post all of Matt. 24 here, but for context you should read it all. You will see that the sign of the Day of the Lord when the rapture will occur, happens after antichrist begins the great tribulation against believers.

What does the book of Revelation show?

Rev. 6:12-13 "I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind."

Here are the same signs that signal the Day of the Lord (rapture/resurrection). The actual rapture itself isn't shown here in Revelation. However, the result of the rapture is shown...the church in heaven before the wrath of God, yet after the persecution and killing of the saints by the antichrist.

Rev. 7:9-14 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, 'Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.' Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, 'These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?' I said to him, 'My lord, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Christ gives us a lot of info of the times to come and warns us repeatedly to BE READY, BE AWARE, BE SOBER & to watch for His return. I believe the times are coming soon and we should know what to expect.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Truthinlove-
if what you say is true then how do you interpret the passage in Luke 21?

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

Truthinlove- you neglected to post the rest of the passage which explains that the day of the Lord which comes as a thief, comes as a thief to those who are of the darkness, but to those who are of the day who are awake and alert, the day does not overtake them, they are not destined for the day of wrath (vengeance) but for obtaining salvation (standing before the Son of Man) living together with Him- in heaven. This salvation is described in the previous passage as you posted- Those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with those who have fallen asleep to meet Jesus in the air- these words are to be a comfort to us all. There is no comfort in knowing that one will have to endure the wrath of God on earth.

RT

[Mrs. B]

Pre-trib timeline.......


Oh! Glory.......Praise His Holy Name......
Heavenly Father.....let everyone that reads this Understand......let them see....Open their understanding and Realize the Day and Hour we are now living in.......Open their Spiritual Eyes and Let them See.... and their Spiritual Ears and let them hear.......

I Thess. 5:5....Ye are the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness...
6...Therefore let us Not Sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7..For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8...But let us, who are of the day, Be Sober, Putting on the Breastplate of Faith and Love; and for an helmlent, the Hope of Salvation.
9...For God hath not appointed us to Wrath...but to obtain Salvation by Our Lord Jesus Christ,
10...Who died for us, that , whether we Wake or Sleep, we should live together WITH HIM....
11...Wherefore Comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do....

Keep up the Good Word.......my little children...Mrs. B

[Mrs. B]

Pre-trib timeline...

Many Christians in other countries are dying today......now...they are being persecuted for Jesus sake today...
we are just not hearing about it....I heard a report 900 died in Egypt....the news media is not reporting a lot of what is happening right now......Christians in other countries are suffering now...... we just are not hearing about it
Mrs. B

[Truthinlove]

hey RT, we will NOT undergo the wrath of God. We are raptured immediately before it, but the wrath of God does NOT begin at the beginning of the 7 years. The wrath of God will be poured out in what is called the Day of the Lord. The rapture is tied together with the DOTL, see the passages in my op. Scriptures make it clear that the DOTL can NOT begin until sometime after the midpoint....after the antichrist has begun his persecution. The rapture will take place just prior to the DOTL...sometime during the last half of the 70th week, at an unknown day when Christ "cuts short" the great tribulation. This is the prewrath view and it is what the Scriptures teach. I would encourage you to read my post again and compare those Scriptures to each other.

God bless!

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Truthinlove, thanks for your response, I take it you are pre-wrath in your rapture view then?

There are some points you made that I would like to discuss further, but first I am curious if you agree or disagree with my remarks concerning Luke 21?

Your response does not make it clear to me whether you do or don't- in your post you are refuting a pre-trib rapture, what I was refuting was a post-trib rapture, I do not believe that what I wrote necessarily refutes anything other than post trib, although I personally adhere to a pre trib view as noted throughout this thread.

RT

[Truthinlove]

Truthinlove, thanks for your response, I take it you are pre-wrath in your rapture view then?

There are some points you made that I would like to discuss further, but first I am curious if you agree or disagree with my remarks concerning Luke 21?

Your response does not make it clear to me whether you do or don't- in your post you are refuting a pre-trib rapture, what I was refuting was a post-trib rapture, I do not believe that what I wrote necessarily refutes anything other than post trib, although I personally adhere to a pre trib view as noted throughout this thread.

RT

Hi, yep, I am prewrath. My post was in response to the original post of this thread. I think there are a few pages of this thread and I have not read 90% of them.

What specifically was your question about Luke 21?

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Truthinlove wrote:

What specifically was your question about Luke 21?

I don't really have questions, but rather points of disagreement as to interpretation, I will try to elaborate:

2 Thess. 2:1-4 "Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

The man of lawlessness (aka: antichrist) will defile the temple at the midpoint of the last 7 year period. Therefore, so far we see that the Day of the Lord (when the rapture/resurrection will occur) will not happen until sometime after the antichrist starts his terrible persecution.

I agree that the antichrist will defile the temple at the midpoint of the 70th week, but I do not necessarily agree that Paul is pointing to the resurrection and the day of the Lord as the same event. I see the gathering to Him and the Day of the Lord as two separate events, not the same event. Nor do I see that they happen at the same time. The Thessalonians had recieved false information regarding the day of the Lord, they falsely were being told that it had already taken place. They had in effect believed that they had arrived at the destination, and somehow things didn't seem right, they were disturbed because they found themselves still on earth, they had not been gathered to the Lord (AKA raptured). I see the passage a bit differently than you, I see that what Paul is doing is explaining all the events that they would have had to have experienced if indeed the Day of the Lord had come and gone as they were falsely being told, he was describing all the via points along the road to that destination point.

If I had found myself arrived at a certain place that I believed was let's say the park where a friend was having a party,however upon my arrival at the park, no one was there, no party at all, I ask myself if maybe I missed it somehow? Perhaps I arrived too late, got my timing mixed up. So I call my friend to ask him if that is so, he then asks me where I am? I tell him I wasn't sure of the name of the park, so he goes on to describe all the landmarks that I would have passed by on my way there, did you pass the five corners? Did you pass the fountain in town etc.... That's what Paul is doing, he is showing the Thessalonians the roadmap to the Day of the Lord. In showing them the landmarks that they should have witnessed if they indeed had arrived, he was in effect showing them that they had gone to the wrong park. The day had not yet come, they had not missed the ingathering to Jesus.

It is the Day of the Lord that they were believing had come, Paul describes the landmarks, I think of them as roadsigns as such:
apostasy
restrainer removed
man of lawlessness revealed
man of lawlessness slain by the appearance of the Lord's coming (Day of the Lord)

I am not going to get into a debate here about the restrainer, because I think that has already been done here in this thread, and if not in several others, but I personally view the removal of the restrainer as the rapture of the body of Christ, the ingathering of believers to Christ. It is clear in the passage that he who restrains must be removed in order for the lawless one to be revealed. The one who comes with false signs and wonders. So a coming and a revealing of this man of lawlessness occurs. He comes with false signs and wonders and is revealed when he takes his seat as God in the temple. The timing of the removal of he who who restrains is not given in the passage, so how long before the revealing that happens is unknown, but it clearly comes before that event and thus before the day of the Lord.

God will give us a clear sign as to the beginning of the Day of the Lord when the rapture/resurrection will take place.

Joel 2:31 "The sun will be turned into darkness And the moon into blood before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes."

So, when in the time-line of end-time events will this sign occur?

Matt. 24:29-31 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I already covered this idea here in this thread, but in short, if you read Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost he basically makes the claim that Joel 2:31 was being fulfilled during his day (Acts chapter 2). The passage in Joel also says that this sign will occur before the Day of the Lord comes, not concurrent with it.

I didn't post all of Matt. 24 here, but for context you should read it all. You will see that the sign of the Day of the Lord when the rapture will occur, happens after antichrist begins the great tribulation against believers.

What does the book of Revelation show?

Rev. 6:12-13 "I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind."

Here are the same signs that signal the Day of the Lord (rapture/resurrection). The actual rapture itself isn't shown here in Revelation. However, the result of the rapture is shown...the church in heaven before the wrath of God, yet after the persecution and killing of the saints by the antichrist.

Rev. 7:9-14 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, 'Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.' Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, 'These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?' I said to him, 'My lord, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Actually the signs in Revelation 6 that occur with the removal of the sixth seal if they are a futher fulfillment of Joel in fact occur BEFORE the Day of the Lord, these are not the same as the signs described in Matthew where the sun is darkened and the moon does not give forth its light, I explain all of this in previous posts of this thread so will not rehash it all here.

I do however agree with you that Rev. 7:9-14 does describe those who have been ingathered to Christ, I just do not believe that it happens after the antichrist is revealed but rather before. In my opinion the removal of the seventh seal is what begins the 70th week. The scroll itself contains the judgments of the trumpets and the bowls,which I believe happen as they are written in the revelation consecutively. The scroll represents the great tribulation, and the seals happen before the great tribulation occurs. They must be removed in order for it to happen, the removal of the sixth seal is the removal of the restrainer the body of Christ, when they arrive to stand before the Son of Man, they escape the things that are about to come upon the whole earth, they are kept from the hour of testing, the seventh seal is the first half of the 70th week, the "about a half hour" of silence before the scroll is unrolled to reveal the trumpet judgments followed by the bowls which will bring about the day of the Lord.

Apostasy followed by restrainer removed followed by revealing of antichrist followed by the day of the Lord.

Christ gives us a lot of info of the times to come and warns us repeatedly to BE READY, BE AWARE, BE SOBER & to watch for His return. I believe the times are coming soon and we should know what to expect.

I completely agree with you there!

RT

[Exit40]

Rev. 7:9-14 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, 'Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.' Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, 'These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?' I said to him, 'My lord, you know.' And he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

There are two issue I see here. One is the multitude having robes washed white in the Blood of the Lamb. These have the special connotation of being seen by God as sinless because they are atoned for by Christs blood. And they are before the Throne day and night serving God in the Temple. Can the rapture achieve this status for them ? I think it more likely washing their robes, the ones they were given at the fifth seal, in the Blood of the lamb is more a testament to they kept their Faith until death, dying as martyrs for Christ. The fact that there are many more of them at this reporting states time has progressed, and yet the DOTL has not. I believe these are tribulation Saints, more full in number through the passage of time, dying in Faith, previously held in the special place of directly under the altar in front of God, and I would imagine this to be a place for His dearly beloved who died for Him, where God can have them close to himself.

Second, those that are alive and remain at the rapture do not go into the Temple to be described with the above group, but rather meet Christ in the air, returning to earth with Him, apparently leaving them unaccounted for in the previous scene. Similarly, no where is there mention of them returning to the Temple to sit around for any purpose in time prior to the culmination of all Prophecy. More than likely these are living Saints, those who are alive and remain, that have the potential to escape all these things, and are the ones who by their deep Faith will be able to hear the Lord when he speaks to them, and tells them how to escape all these things, by whatever method the Lord has devised for them, and in complete Faith, they Obey His Voice, right here on planet earth, escaping under Divine guidance. I suspect at this time the rapture has not occured, but this description brings us closer to the event to happen a little later down the line.

God Bless

David

[MarkT]

.
The Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, not out of the fifth Seal. What other body could outnumber 100 million Angels? Not the Jews... it is the Church/OT Saints.

The fifth Seal martyrs were just told to wait until their number of martyrs was complete, and that won't happen until the end of the one 'seven' when the Two Witnesses are slain, lie deceased, and then are called up to Heaven.

The "rapture" is depicted in the Olivet Discourse as coming with the Day of the Lord's signature sign: the sun/moon/star event. This happens immediately after the Great Tribulation. Thus, those who are gathered up, from both the corners of the earth and the ends of Heaven -are- the Great Multitude.

The only time Jesus is depicted as coming with the Saints to the earth is in 1Th 3:13, but from an observer-true point-of-view, Paul is describing those who are about to be raptured witnessing Jesus coming with those He has already resurrected from beyond the grave because as he lays out in 1Th 4, they are resurrected before the living left are lifted up.

According to Jesus in Mt 13, the wheat is taken out of the field of this world to the barn of Heaven.

Jesus does have an army with Him when begins God's Wrath on the Day of the Lord and in Rev 14:4 we can know the 144,000 are part of it because they go wherever the Lamb goes.

Does Jesus need billions of Saints to take on hundreds of millions of soldiers? Or with Gideon as a template with only 300, will the 144,000 suffice to rout a proportionally greater number? Of course. The Groom does not take His Bride to war.
.

[Exit40]

Hi Mark. Thanks for the sermon.

The Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, not out of the fifth Seal. What other body could outnumber 100 million Angels? Not the Jews... it is the Church/OT Saints.

The fifth Seal martyrs were just told to wait until their number of martyrs was complete, and that won't happen until the end of the one 'seven' when the Two Witnesses are slain, lie deceased, and then are called up to Heaven.

The OT Saints came out of the Great Tribulation ? Jews are not OT Saints ? Are the Fifth Seal Saints still under the altar here ?

Umm, regarding Saints coming with Jesus....

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.

Re Zec 14:5, who is it that is going to flee here ? One obvious answer, someone who is alive on planet earth at the time of Our Lord's coming. My impression here is these are the Faithful remnant chosen to survive, live through, all that has come before.

The "rapture" is depicted in the Olivet Discourse as coming with the Day of the Lord's signature sign: the sun/moon/star event. This happens immediately after the Great Tribulation. Thus, those who are gathered up, from both the corners of the earth and the ends of Heaven -are- the Great Multitude.

A careful reading of Matt 24:29-31 reveals a sequence of events: Heavenly signs, powers of the heavens shaken: and then we see the sign of the Son of Man: and then all the tribes of the earth mourn, ( tribes here are indicated to be all the tribes of Israel, descendants of one of the 12 sons of Jacob, including the lost tribes ); and then they see the Son of Man coming in great power and glory in the clouds of Heaven. And then with the sound of the trumpet the angels gather the ' Elect ', from the four cardinal winds, from one end of Heaven to another. This happens in the Heavens, not on earth, as the four winds by definition represent the four corners of Heaven.

According to the Matt 13 parable, the tares are gathered first, bundled to be burned, but the wheat is gathered into His barn, which by definition is only denoted as a place in which anything is laid by or up. No mention of Heaven in this definition, sorry.

Jesus does have an army with Him when begins God's Wrath on the Day of the Lord and in Rev 14:4 we can know the 144,000 are part of it because they go wherever the Lamb goes.

Does Jesus need billions of Saints to take on hundreds of millions of soldiers? Or with Gideon as a template with only 300, will the 144,000 suffice to rout a proportionally greater number? Of course. The Groom does not take His Bride to war.

Your condescension is noted, but as we all should know it is the Lord who takes vengeance 'for' His Saints. Difficult to imagine that after being taught to love our enemies we would then, as Heavenly saints, be required to kill them.

Good to hear from you again Brother. You always liven up the place.

God bless You

David

[MarkT]

Good to hear from you brother? - But then you also charge me with sermonizing and condescension?

I must protest this unfair characterization. A proper reply must await my return home as posting from a smartphone is nigh impossible.

[Exit40]

Hey Brother, if the shoe fits... And your posturing indignation forward to an answer convinces me of more of the same. I am entitled to the same manner of forming opinions as you are. Nevertheless Brother, it's like I said, you always liven up the place. I really do enjoy the banter that goes on around you. But try not to take it so personally, it's not meant to antagonize. So, can we have a conversation ? I believe we can if we leave out the drama.

God bless You

David

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi gentlemen,

I'd hate to close this thread since it was started by Seeker and has some comments and posts worthy of discussion, but it needs to go forward minus the sarcasm and personal attacks. Thanks!

[Exit40]

I offer my apologies for being so testy. I don't know what came over me, honestly. I agree, good thread, sorry for interrupting.

God Bless You

David

[Resurrection Torchlight]

There are two issue I see here. One is the multitude having robes washed white in the Blood of the Lamb. These have the special connotation of being seen by God as sinless because they are atoned for by Christs blood. And they are before the Throne day and night serving God in the Temple. Can the rapture achieve this status for them ? I think it more likely washing their robes, the ones they were given at the fifth seal, in the Blood of the lamb is more a testament to they kept their Faith until death, dying as martyrs for Christ. The fact that there are many more of them at this reporting states time has progressed, and yet the DOTL has not. I believe these are tribulation Saints, more full in number through the passage of time, dying in Faith, previously held in the special place of directly under the altar in front of God, and I would imagine this to be a place for His dearly beloved who died for Him, where God can have them close to himself.

Hi David, I would like to discuss some of the points you bring up.

I think that there is a distinction between those saints under the altar who are given white robes, and those whose robes are washed and made clean. But before I delve into that we must first discuss what the white robe is.

The white robe is promised for all those who overcome, some of whom will be of the church at Sardis, who have not soiled their garments, they will walk with Jesus clothed in white, the word "white" means "light" , "brilliant".

Revelation 3:4-6
4 ‘But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
6 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Here the church of Laodicea is advised to purchase white garments from the Lord to clothe themselves in. These garments hide the shame of their nakedness, that is spiritual nakedness. It also implies that obtaining these garments will cost them something. As they are advised to "purchase them". They will undergo the refining fires of the Lord's discipline so that they will be brought to repentance.

Revelation 3:18
18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

It is a fact that angels are also clothed in "white garments", scripture describes it in several places: Mark 16:5, John 20:12, Acts 1:10,Revelation 15:6. Also the 24 elders are described as wearing white robes and Jesus also is described as wearing gleaming brilliant white garments at His transfiguration. The idea that the souls under the altar receive white robes, says to me that the robes are something given upon one's bodily, physical resurrection into the heavenly tabernacle. Jesus at His transfiguration gave the disciples a glimpse into this reality as well. The fifth seal martyrs are described by John as souls, they are the dead, disembodied spirits of those faithful saints who died as martyrs on the earth. They are given white robes and then told to rest until their number is completed. Thus they are resurrected before the tribulation saints die as martyrs. The white robe is the priestly garment of righteousness, that one is clothed with when they are resurrected into the heavenly tabernacle where they serve and reign with the Lord, the robe is our new incorruptible eternal body.

So on one hand we have the fifth seal martyrs who are given white robes to put on, and then we have this great multitude that appears suddenly before the throne dressed in white who have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb and by this they are made white.

Revelation 7:14
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These standing before the throne are not viewed as sinless because they are raptured, they are viewed as sinless because their earthly bodies were redeemed by Christ:

Revelation 22:14
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.

1 Corinthians 6:11
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Titus 3:5-6
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Hebrews 10:22
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 9:14-15
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

1 John 1:7
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Revelation 1:4-5
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

The idea that this multitude stands before the throne with robes washed in the blood of the lamb shows that they are those who did not need to be given robes as did those souls under the altar, but that their robes were transformed while they still wore them. While believers live on the earth they are justified positionally before God, however their flesh is still corrupted and corruptible. Their earthly bodies will one day be completely made righteous by the blood of the lamb so that they could stand spotless and without wrinkle before the heavenly throne as high priests in the heavenly tabernacle. Their salvation will be complete at that point.

Revelation 3:12
12 ‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

Revelation 7:15
15 “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

For those who die before the rapture, they will be given robes of white, the heavenly raiment when they are resurrected, while those who are alive and raptured will have their robes cleansed and changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.

The raptured saints along with those who will be resurrected will accompany Christ at His return, but they will not necessarily leave the heavenly tabernacle to do so, and Christ will not necessarily leave His throne to return to earth, rather I believe that Christ arrives on His throne and that the heavens are opened so that those on earth can see Him and those who dwell there with Him as well.

The throne of Christ, where He is seated is in the heavenly realm, but the earth is His footstool. Currently we are that footstool, the earthly temple that occupies the earth until we are gathered to Him. But one day Jerusalem on earth will have a physical temple rebuilt where Christ will have His footstool once again and where He will reign from, with His throne still residing in the heavenly place, except that then those on earth will see Him there.

That's my take.

RT

[MarkT]

.
First of all, thanks for the apology. Now to answer your response by issue:

The OT Saints came out of the Great Tribulation ? Jews are not OT Saints ? Are the Fifth Seal Saints still under the altar here ?

When I say Church/OT Saints this is to reflect the fifth decade use of eklektos which appears in the Gospel accounts. By the time the Synoptic Gospel accounts were written, the Apostles had discovered via the conversion of Gentiles at Antioch that the Holy Spirit was poured out not only to Jews, but others not of Israeli descent as well (Acts 10:45). I think the use of eklektos reflects that inclusion of Gentiles into the otherwise original Jewish body of believers.

Now as the promise of Salvation is to those who believe in 'God saves,' and that God has reserved those in olden times to Him based on their heart, and furthermore, that God promised Daniel that he would be raised up on the last day to receive his inheritance: which is exactly what it is for believers to be 'taken up' from the Greek NT word paralambano - then it is entirely within reason to broaden the use of eklektos beyond the Church (which is used of the Church in the NT) to OT Saints like Daniel and others that God selects which is part and parcel with the definition of eklektos itself.

I don't understand your statement which you punctuate as a question: "Jews are not OT Saints?" Is that a statement or a question? Which Jews are you referring to? Some Jews are not Saints... and the Apostles and those they converted to Christianity (before it was even known as that) were not "OT" living after the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

The fifth Seal martyrs are distinct from the Great Multitude. In the Seal/Scroll account, they are not raised, or made alive, or come into the third Heaven of direct presence in front of God the Father until their number is complete. As the Two Witnesses call down some of the Wrath of God, and as that does not happen until after the Great Multitude arrive in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence, and after the Scroll is opened with the breaking of the seventh Seal, and as the Two Witnesses occupy the second half of the one 'seven,' the martyrs under the fifth Seal are not made alive until after the one 'seven' is over. That is when, in chapter 20, that John actually pronounces the first Resurrection as a fact; they complete the work begun on the Day of the Lord when Jesus gathers up all who have died from the ends of Heaven (first) and those who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation - the last of the Elect - who are all members of the body of Christ by definition so as to be saved.
.

[MarkT]

Umm, regarding Saints coming with Jesus....

First of all, I was referencing Paul's second coming of Jesus to gather the Elect on the Day of the Lord which is found in 1Th 3:13. May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

Now let's look at your references, which also refer to the coming of Christ Jesus on the Day of the Lord, but do so, not in the aspect to rescue, but to judge! You cut your quote short - there is some very important information in verse 15 which separates these Saints from the few of the Elect who are still alive and are left upon the earth (1Th 4:15) as Jesus described in the Olivet Discourse saying the Great Tribulation would be cut short for the sake of the Elect so they would not all perish -- these Saints come to judge the world!

Jud 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

1. This is not coming to rescue but to judge! The last of the Elect are like the five wise virgins awaiting the arrival of the Bridegroom.

2. It is not with a Great Multitude of Saints which defy numbering like the Great Multitude of the sixth Seal who number more than the Angels of Heaven at more than 100 million. (The arrival of the Great Multitude in Heaven transpires after the same sun/moon/star event which occurs with the opening of the sixth Seal which is just like the sun/moon/star sign event of Mt 24:29 - which also has the gathering of the elect happening after it - the sequence order is the same.)

Now there are thousands upon thousands who NEVER leave the Lamb's side,

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

and they are also pictured in Day of the Lord Wrath as being with Jesus:

Joel 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming. It is close at hand — 2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come. 3 Before them fire devours, behind them a flame blazes. Before them the land is like the garden of Eden, behind them, a desert waste — nothing escapes them. 4 They have the appearance of horses; they gallop along like cavalry. 5 With a noise like that of chariots they leap over the mountaintops, like a crackling fire consuming stubble, like a mighty army drawn up for battle. 6 At the sight of them, nations are in anguish; every face turns pale. 7 They charge like warriors; they scale walls like soldiers. They all march in line, not swerving from their course. 8 They do not jostle each other; each marches straight ahead. They plunge through defenses without breaking ranks. 9 They rush upon the city; they run along the wall. They climb into the houses; like thieves they enter through the windows. 10 Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine. 11 The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty is the army that obeys his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?

Now - SINCE the 144,000 go wherever Jesus goes - we CAN know that they are part of God's Army!

However! I will go further than that! Because they are sealed, and can survive calamity having the protection of God, and because Jesus does NOT need billions of Saints to take on hundreds of millions - to do so would elevate our importance and simultaneously diminish the power of Christ - I will put forth that the 144,000 ARE the VERY thousands upon thousands that come with Jesus to judge the wicked of the world when they are burned in the field of this earth!

So in Jude 1:14, it aptly describes a limited number, thousands upon thousands rather than a great multitude which outnumbers the Angels in Heaven as John says of the Great Multitude of the sixth Seal.

Now let's look at your reference in Zechariah, and again, you miss vital information conveyed in the Word of God in the previous verses to that which you cited which allows for an interpretation of who is fleeing...

Zec 14:1 A day of the LORD is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls. 2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. 6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the LORD —with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

Verse 1: Identified as Day of the Lord prohecy, this is addressed to Jerusalem: this is the time of Jacob's Trouble! Remember: (and I am not sermonizing) Zechariah foretold that two-thirds of the Jews would die during the end-times.

Verse 2/3: Jerusalem will fall and subsequently (on the Day of the Lord Wrath) Jesus will fight against those who plundered it.

Verse 4: This is a very important verse! This is in complete agreement with the Ascension of Christ Jesus detailed in Acts chapter 1 from the Mount of Olives! And, according to no less an expert witness than the Angels who speak to the Disciples in Acts 1:11 - as Jesus ascended, so shall He return!

The second coming of Jesus has our Lord descending to alight upon the Mount of Olives. Yes, Jesus "touches down" before the Rapture of the Elect who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation has reduced their ranks to a few survivors.

This is the SECOND earthquake of the sixth Seal! There are five events which open up with the sixth Seal's breaking to 'set the stage' for what is happening on the earth at that time!

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. [1] There was a great earthquake. [2] The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 [3] and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 [4] The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and [5] every mountain and island was removed from its place.

[1] - There is an earthquake right out of Hag 2:6-7 which is repeated in Heb 12:26-27.
[2] - The sun and moon events in order of their appearance. The process of the foreboding sun/moon/star event starts at noon according to Amos 8:9! The darkening of the sun at its brightest time is due to a covering of clouds as Isaiah 50:3, Ezekiel 32:7 and Joel 2:2 dictate! When evening comes, these clouds dissipate to reveal a red moon like what happens at an eclipse.
[3] - There are celestial fireworks - a grand meteor shower as...
[4] - The Sign of the Son of Man appears in the sky: the scrolling of the sky! As Isaiah 34:4 and Zec 14:7 dictate: in the evening it will be light!
[5] - The second earthquake of the sixth Seal happening AFTER Jesus descends from the sky to earth as the Angels dictated in Acts 1:11!

THIS is when the Mount of Olives is split in two! AND like with the recent earthquakes in the Indian Ocean which resulted in the Christmas tsunami and the earthquake in southern South America which rang the earth like a bell - and in both instances EVERY point on the earth SHIFTED - so too will this earthquake change the relative position so that each peak (Islands are mountains which poke above sea level) which acts as a reference point on the face of the earth will shift just like they have done recently.

Back to Zechariah 14...

Verse 5: "YOU" is addressed to the Jews, specifically the Jews who live in Jerusalem during the time of the Great Tribulation! The whole passage starts off with addressing Jerusalem: the capitol of the Israel nation! No Christians could stand being that close to the abomination which is in the Temple on the Temple Mount! No Christian will be able to travel freely because of the mark and the second law which makes the Great Tribulation eliminate so many of the Elect - the Daniel Test of worship the beast or die - so who is in Jerusalem? Jews and some Arabs! If there are any Christians there left alive, they are deep in hiding!

SO - who is doing the fleeing? It is not us as you suppose David; it is the Jews who, like those in Judea who fled on the eve of the midpoint abomination into the wilderness, will be hidden by Jesus and moved about during the second half of the one 'seven' so that there is a remnant of Jews to even enter the Millennium reign of Christ!

So who are "all the Saints" who come with Jesus?

First of all, kol in the Hebrew culture means 'all that is applicable.' It is not as all-encompassing as our culture insists "all" has to be which means every last bit!

In Paul's day, he said the Gospel was spread ALL over the world! Was the Gospel preached to the American Indians? The Mormons use this verse to support their cult! The answer is no, there is no record of civilizations such as Joseph Smith described when he copied whole sections of the Old Testament into that devilish work of his.

Was the Gospel spread in China? The Han Dynasty was at its height at the time of Christ and rivaled the Roman Empire not only in scope as far as land, but in population, wealth, and power! Yet not a single bit of evidence shows that as of the sixth decade of the first century did even one soul venture there to spread the Good News!

So what did Paul mean by "all?" Was it our literal everywhere? NO! It was all that was applicable.

Another difference between their culture and ours. In our culture, it is against the law to omit a fact. You can be punished for not telling the truth, the whole truth and all the truth. In Hebrew culture, there is no sin of omission! Indeed, much of prophecy omits what we would consider pertinent facts! Did God commit a crime? Most certainly not! It is a difference of culture and of language and its use which confuses us when we read what they wrote sometimes.

The Saints could be the Saints of 1Th 3:13 - that would be the Saints who are resurrected from their ordinary deaths who rise before those who are still alive and are left upon the earth are lifted up to meet them in the clouds with Jesus. As the Bible says of Jesus' glorious coming on the clouds, every eye will see... so it could be that this is the sight Zechariah saw.

It also could be the 144,000 who come with Jesus. Maybe Zechariah saw a vision like Joel's... we can't know.

But in either case, we cannot say it is ALL the Saints meaning every last one of them - all it has to be is all who are applicable whether it be those risen from their ordinary grave or the Firstfruits of the Harvest.

In either case - nowhere in Zechariah does he state it is the "faithful remnant chosen to survive." That is something you put in there out of your own eschatology!

Verses 6/7: Descriptions of the Day of the Lord, the unknown day.

So there, with full Biblical backup by a plethora of sources is my answer to you.

[MarkT]

A careful reading of Matt 24:29-31 reveals a sequence of events: Heavenly signs, powers of the heavens shaken: and then we see the sign of the Son of Man: and then all the tribes of the earth mourn, ( tribes here are indicated to be all the tribes of Israel, descendants of one of the 12 sons of Jacob, including the lost tribes ); and then they see the Son of Man coming in great power and glory in the clouds of Heaven. And then with the sound of the trumpet the angels gather the ' Elect ', from the four cardinal winds, from one end of Heaven to another. This happens in the Heavens, not on earth, as the four winds by definition represent the four corners of Heaven.

No, the ends of Heaven are already mentioned... the four four winds cover the cardinal points of the compass: i.e., everywhere on the earth.

In the context of the Olivet Discourse's detailed account of the end starting in v.15, it is most definitely set on the earth - having as its beginning the midpoint abomination being in the Temple, as the Holy Place, Biblically defined in the Old Testament is inside the Temple, but in front of the Curtain.

Next, is Judea, where the first of the remnant Jews start off into the wilderness to be hidden by God from the forces of evil bent on their destruction, and just like is foretold in Rev 12, when Satan cannot get to them, the anti-Christ turns his unwanted attention to us with the Great Tribulation.

So on the midpoint abomination depicted in Rev 13:14-15, on its heels comes two onerous laws which make the Great Tribulation so terrible that it will nearly wipe out the Elect, those who believe in Christ on the face of the earth, if it were not interrupted by the abrupt cutting off of the Great Tribulation by God with the arrival of the sun/moon/star event AND the Day of the Lord - ON THE EARTH!

The Great Multitude, who show up in Heaven only after the sun/moon/star event of Mt 24:29 and the sixth Seal, are identified by no less an expert witness than an Elder who says they came out of the Great Tribulation! It is at that time that the Elect are delivered!

And as Paul says of the gathering of the Elect from the earth to Jesus on the clouds, just as Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse - the Elect who are still alive and are left UPON THE EARTH - will be caught up to join those resurrected (first) from the grave on the clouds.

So in the context of the Olivet Discourse, it does not all happen in Heaven, but describes events from an earth-bound perspective.

A careful reading? Why that is most certainly needed indeed!

[MarkT]

According to the Matt 13 parable, the tares are gathered first, bundled to be burned, but the wheat is gathered into His barn, which by definition is only denoted as a place in which anything is laid by or up. No mention of Heaven in this definition, sorry.

I would say you are wrong on two accounts:

1. The tares are NOT "gathered," but collected! It is an entirely different word in the Greek. I would say some more word study is needed in your case.

2. The man who sows the seed is Jesus as He says in Mt 13:37, and as the field is this world, as Jesus says in v.38, then removal from this world is not Hades, but Heaven and in v.43, the righteous shine in the Kingdom of the Father!

So only if you want to be rigidly literal could you possibly deny the barn is not Heaven on the flimsiest of bases that the word: "Heaven" is not immediately equated with the barns' sanctuary in the parable. The Great Multitude, however, are delivered out of the Great Tribulation and wind up in the very presence of God the Father right inline with what I am saying. So not to over complicate things and keep it simple: it most certainly IS Heaven to where Jesus is building rooms for us as He said in John 14 and to where we can expect to go on the Day of the Lord! Halleluiah! We should encourage one another with these words!