If I am of the Church, why should I go to "church"?

by **WOODHENOT3** on Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:55 pm

God ripped the Temple veil from top to bottom at the crucifixion . He entered our bodies at Pentecost.
There is not a single scripture in the New Testament that requires you to attend church.
You know God hates it when you gather in a building of mechanical tradition....
Isaiah 1: 12-14,
12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

I cannot see a scriptural mandate to attend church. We must rely on the Holy Spirit to counsel, guide and teach us, not man, right? There are thousands of Christian denominations and the so called "man of God" who poison the minds of many flocks. Why go to church when you could have a personal relationship with Jesus everyday?
God is a jealous God, he wants your attention individually, right?
A lot Christians rely on their pastor instead of reading the Bible and they think their pastors are wonderful...they cannot see they are being deceived ...
Christian churches reminds me of Jesus when he rebuked the Pharisee for being religious....I see the same comparisons on Christians who follow their denominations and false doctrines......

I believe many Christians should be alerted with many false teachings today

Love in Christ,
Woody

by **HighBeams** on Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:44 pm

Hi, Woody!

How do you understand the following verses, particularly the underlined part?

Hebrews 10:23-25

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.-

This is the usual passage that is used to answer your question about why Christians should actually be going to church. If you have isolated yourself from other Christians, how can you obey the instruction to "stimulate one another to love and good deeds"? How can you also be "encouraging one another" if you are not in any useful, quality contact with other Christians? From where do you obtain your own encouragement and stimulation to love the Children of God and do good deeds?

I'm just curious here. For me, personally, I really plug into relationships with my fellow believers. When I am not meeting with them, particularly in worship, I feel rather isolated. This has particularly been brought home to me recently when my family made the decision to change churches. I've been having a hard time plugging into any of the churches we've tried. Yet I also really miss the fellowship from having a home church. So I'm interested in your take on this subject.

by **daffodyllady** on Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:56 pm

And here are a few more Scriptures that I think would be hard to obey without being part of a local assembly.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

keeping in mind...

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. ...vv.4&5 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
also...
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

The Lord did not mean for us to operate on an individualistic basis, with no structure and no authority other than Himself. In fact, He says clearly that each of us are given gifts for the purpose of being a blessing to the body as a whole. The gifts of the Spirit do not operate Scripturally outside of the context of a local assembly.

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

I agree, the building we meet in is completely unimportant. The church is people, not a building.

However, we must be very careful not to mix humanistic ideas with Christianity. Biblical Christianity is very group-oriented, and has people in authority over others. Humanism is very individual-oriented, and embraces rebellion.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:35 pm

The gifts of the Spirit do not operate Scripturally outside of the context of a local assembly.

I must, with all due respect disagree with this daffodyllady. The NT has a number of believers who have had dreams, visions, words of knowledge, healings, etc. outside of what we call church or assembly.

The Lord did not mean for us to operate on an individualistic basis, with no structure and no authority other than Himself.

Jesus always treated people as individuals with individual needs, characteristics, strengths, and weaknesses. He call His apostles on an individual basis. There are nearly 100 verses that admonish "one-another" but without designating where the one-anothering needs to take place. Paul is careful to write about believers by individual names and asks others to assist them. Hebrews records the faith of many individuals and lists them as individuals by name. And of course, the OT is replete with individual Kings, Prophets, Judges, etc. and records their accomplishments be they good or bad.

And Jesus clearly states that He is the One whom we should follow. He alone is the mediator, way, truth, life, the vine, the bread of life, the One who has words of eternal life, the one who heals, the one who forgives sin, the Shepherd who leads the sheep, our advocate with the Father, the Teacher etc. He has set the example for us to follow as a servant, not as an authority. He Himself came to serve and admonished us to wash one another's feet and reprimanded those who asked who among them was the greatest. He clearly told us we are not to live as the worldly by desiring to rule over others.

He alone is worthy of our praise and service.

ETA: An assembly is comprised of 2-3 believers at any location. Sometimes the most beautiful assembly is around a campfire worshiping with fellow believers.

by **notworthcomparing** on Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:41 pm

Why go to church?

Because we were commanded to:

not forsaking assembling ourselves together
spurring one another on to love and good works
because we are all being made one in unity, just as He and the Father are One. (hard to do in isolation)
because loving people is hard and it reminds us that He dug deep to love us, so we can love others

and because it's not about me. When I hear someone say, "why do I have to ...". There is a big "I" in there. That's your first issue. "I" don't think... "I" don't need... Why can't "I". "I" don't like it. "I" don't like the hypocrisy. "I" am concerned about false teaching.

Religion

Obedience - If I obey, I'm accepted
Good / Bad - If I'm good, God will love me
People - Good and Bad
Focus - What I do or don't do
Produces - Pride and Despair
Motivation - Fear

The Gospel of Grace

Obedience - I'm overwhelmed with gratitude, so I love back and obedience is a small thing
Good / Bad - I'm rotten to the core. It's not about me. it's about God's immeasurable love and mercy.
People - Repentant or Not. They are highly valued, because God highly values them, not because we're good, but because He is good.
Focus - Christ's redemptive work on the cross
Produces - Humility, Confidence, Joy and Passion to share what we have been given
Motivation - Love

by **HighBeams** on Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:34 pm

Great posts, daffodyllady, Abiding, and notworthcomparing!

by **Keeping Alert** on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:43 am

I am not so sure that "I am the Church" is a correct doctrine. We are the temple of the Holy Ghost but that is different from the definition of the Church.

There are classically 2 categories of the word "Church" - the Local Church and the Church Universal.

I assume that the OP was talking about the Church Universal which is made up of all true believers in the body of Christ past, present and future, which is without spot or blemish.

So NO ONE PERSON can claim to be the Church - it is made up many individuals throughout the ages each with their own purpose in their time and sphere of influence, all to the glory of God.

So why go to church? - Well, because you are NOT the Church; you are only BUT one part of the Body of Christ serving the rest of the Body and the fact of the matter is, even though the local church is full of flaws and hypocrisy, that is where most of the community are fellow believers also struggling and also failing often, as we ourselves are apt to, that we are to serve and edify the whole Body to the glory of God.

Blessings,
KA

by **Abiding in His Word** on Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:14 am

that we are to serve and edify the whole Body to the glory of God.

Hi Keeping Alert,

Of course, in reality "we" cannot serve and edify the "whole" (universal) Body at any given time, can we? In other words, an individual can serve and edify a limited number of other believers at any time and/or any location; not only in a building designated for a specific group (local) for a limited period of 1-2 hours. Serving and edifying one-another are functions for all believers, at all times, and in all or any location. We are all members of the spiritual body of Christ, but few of us belong to the same physical church body. Thus, we can serve and edify others spiritually even when alone in our prayer closet, at a gathering for a dinner, or in the immediate body of family members, right?

by **mark s** on Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:30 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:God ripped the Temple veil from top to bottom at the crucifixion . He entered our bodies at Pentecost.
There is not a single scripture in the New Testament that requires you to attend church.
You know God hates it when you gather in a building of mechanical tradition....
Isaiah 1: 12-14,
12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Hi Woody,

There's not much I can think of to add to the tremendous responses already given.

But I did want to ask you . . .

Are you thinking that God did not want people to come to the temple to worship?

Or do you think the problem was that they were coming to make a show of worship, without being sincere?

Personally, I love to get together with other Christians. I'm really excited that we've started having New Year's Eve at our church again. I'm very much looking forward to tomorrow night!

:grin:

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **mark s** on Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:32 pm

There is one more thing that occurs to me to say . . .

You say, "if I am the church . . .", well, you by yourself are not the church. You are a part of the church. The whole lot of us together, we are the church.

by **WOODHENOT3** on Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:36 am

Jesus hates religions and denominations, all it does it cause divisions.
Jesus called the Pharisees liars, vile snakes, hypocrites etc...
I believe there is a great number of Christians who are deceived by going to church.
I have spoken to so many people and several in different denominations, I would say, most of them
do not have any idea they are NOT walking in the Holy Spirit then they think they are...most assume they are
because they go to "church" or did some good deeds for the "church", etc......
They follow their pastors and believe their pastors have authority over them. Most pastors are just like
the Pharisees, they follow the mechanical tradition of the Temple.....such as tithes, alter calls, etc
I believe in fellowshipping which I do everywhere and I do learn a lot from God in doing so as I witnessed many people,
so God teaches me as I go out and serve him. I love having Bible discussions at home with people who comes to visit, etc...
I stopped going to church because I get too irritated with all the false teachings, pastors has brainwashed many into their
tithe givings, doctrines, sacrifices, etc and it aggravates me that no one is standing up for the Truth.....sadly, no where the bible says the flock has to pay the shepherd or no where does it say the Pastor is the better one out of the "five fold"....Most pastors are a one man show, a position or title, a businessman....
The only reason I would go to church is to pull out people from following such false doctrines and help them understand the truth.
Funny thing, I get persecuted all the time at church, you know why? Because the "man of God" does not like me teaching
his flocks the Truth.
I always say, God is a jealous God, he wants your personal relationship.

In Christ Jesus,
Woody

by **WOODHENOT3** on Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:44 am

If God calls you to help some homeless people on New Year's eve, would you help the homeless or go party with your Christian friends at church?

I would love to please God. :)

by **burien1** on Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:48 am

I don't know of anyone at this board, that I believe wouldn't forgo a party anywhere, Church included, to help someone in need.

by **daffodyllady** on Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:52 am

Oh my...

Jesus does not hate religion.

Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Therefore, God DOES approve of pure, undefiled religion.

Religion is the action a person does that shows forth his spiritual belief.
Granted, some do try to put on an empty show, like the Pharisees did. but that doesn't mean all religion is bad. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their hypocrisy, not for their doing what the law required.

It sounds like you are bitter against a perceived wrong done to you. I have seen many people make shipwreck of their faith, because they became bitter. This bitterness can rob you of your birthright in Christ.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

What do your actions show? Are you peaceable and easy to be entreated, or are you contentious and full of strife?

Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

by **WOODHENOT3** on Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:52 pm

Daffodyllady,
About James 1, it is talking about pure religion which is visiting the fatherless, widows and keeping yourself unspotted from the world. It is not talking about going to church or building. Religion is helping other people, not going to ceremony or formalism. So, therefore I am speaking of today's religion which are ceremonies, idols, denominations, rituals, etc...

Just because I bring up the false teachings going on at the church doesn't mean I'm bitter or angry. I like to point and see what people think. By the way, you should read my article I posted on "About News"...you'll see I am not the bitter one....

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:57 pm

I think Woody is pointing out some of the major concerns he has evidently observed in churches today. I see the same and have also given up for many of the same reasons. This has in no way diminished my love for the Lord, but has somewhat diminished my respect for some of His people. I still love them as spiritual sisters and brothers and fellowship every opportunity I have, but the spectacle I've seen develop over the last few years leaves much to be desired imho.

There is a growing number of "unchurched" believers who are disheartened by some things that have infiltrated the local church. They refuse to participate in those that perpetuate unscriptural and sometimes abusive practices and widen the gap between clergy and laity as Woody observed as well. Some have left for other reasons and grieve about it, but their conscience has been their guide. The body of Christ, as I see it, is very fractured and is far from a Christ-centered focus.

We should embrace, love, and provide encouragement regardless of their current position.

by **WOODHENOT3** on Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:38 pm

You've said it better Abiding, :a3:

Abiding,
I have spoken with many leaders and I have had the opportunity to share them many scriptures to correct their false teachings. You'd be amazed how many refused to change in God's way. Many leaders tell me they cannot change anything because they are afraid to lose people. I asked a few pastors, "who are you going to stand up for, your denomination or God?"...and most of them say, well, if you read our brochure then you'll understand our church...

Love in Christ,
Woody

by **notworthcomparing** on Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:51 pm

Woody,

I certainly agree that the church is largely dead, irrelevant, grand standing, self-sustaining and filled with lies.

Most churches care little about the lost or dying and care more about maintaining the status quo, validating themselves and keeping the coffers filled enough to maintain.

However, it is a big statement to say that we should just throw in the towel and stay home.

Pray for God to lead you to the place He has for you. Maybe you're supposed to go somewhere dead and revive it, or maybe God has something else.

I appreciate your heart in this and appreciate your frustration. me too...

God Bless.

Happy New Year!

:bowing:

by **Keeping Alert** on Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:00 pm

Hi Woody,

I can understand your disappointment with "church"... I would totally agree that most are not teaching the truth... some intentionally... some not intentional but because they have been taught in seminary or some movement that it is truth and they believe it line, hook and sinker.

But I also believe that God does not leave Himself without a witness. Somewhere out there, and not too far actually, there should be a church that is reasonably truthful. It is a matter of making the effort to find it. It may be a little more drive than just around your neighborhood but good fellowship is usually not far off.

I used to have this problem too. I take the public bus and I found this balanced church but it was quite a distance off. Took me almost 1.5 hours to get there from home... but guess what? Since it takes me so long to get there, I might as well stay longer in church and make myself useful.

I now currently work in the most populous country in the world and you will be amazed by the number of people who would walk half a day through fields and hills and across rivers to come to church... we are perhaps a tat too lazy...

Now, we do have to check ourselves when we say that men are not teaching right things in church. If you want to find a church that follows your belief about the mode of baptism, and about participation on the Holy Communion, and about the way people should behave and dress, and about Calvinism/Armenianism, and about rapture timing, and about who the anti-christ and such things, then I believe we may be a little presumptious in thinking we have the truth on these matters.

GIve a little grace to an imperfect world... and the church does so happen to be in the world...

Blessings,
KA

by **mark s** on Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:43 am

mark s wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:God ripped the Temple veil from top to bottom at the crucifixion . He entered our bodies at Pentecost.
There is not a single scripture in the New Testament that requires you to attend church.
You know God hates it when you gather in a building of mechanical tradition....
Isaiah 1: 12-14,
12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Hi Woody,

There's not much I can think of to add to the tremendous responses already given.

But I did want to ask you . . .

Are you thinking that God did not want people to come to the temple to worship?

Or do you think the problem was that they were coming to make a show of worship, without being sincere?

Personally, I love to get together with other Christians. I'm really excited that we've started having New Year's Eve at our church again. I'm very much looking forward to tomorrow night!

Love in Christ,
Mark

No reply to this?

Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

by **mark s** on Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:21 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Jesus hates religions and denominations, all it does it cause divisions.
Jesus called the Pharisees liars, vile snakes, hypocrites etc...

Hi WOODHENOT3,

I'd be hard pressed to consider my pastor a liar, a vile snake, or a hypocrite. Would you be so bold, considering, so far as I know, you've never even met the man? Do you consider all pastors this way? Or might there be some who fulfill their Godly role?

I believe there is a great number of Christians who are deceived by going to church.

By going to church??? Or by having false concepts of what "church" is? This is an important point, I'm hoping you don't ignore it.

Are they deceived by going to church, or by false teaching they receive in their church?

You make the very concept of "going to church" to be wrong. You've read the book of Acts, yes? You've read where the early church gathered in homes, and also at the temple? How they met in the thousands, to receive regular teaching? Do you not consider this "going to church"?

I have spoken to so many people and several in different denominations, I would say, most of them
do not have any idea they are NOT walking in the Holy Spirit then they think they are...most assume they are
because they go to "church" or did some good deeds for the "church", etc......

I believe this is being short-sighted to think that though some are this way, that all are this way. Is that truly what you think?

They follow their pastors and believe their pastors have authority over them. Most pastors are just like
the Pharisees, they follow the mechanical tradition of the Temple.....such as tithes, alter calls, etc

Same question as above . . .

I believe in fellowshipping which I do everywhere and I do learn a lot from God in doing so as I witnessed many people,
so God teaches me as I go out and serve him. I love having Bible discussions at home with people who comes to visit, etc...

I too believe in fellowshipping, and likewise fellowship in homes, in the market, but we also fellowship in the building we call our church. How is this wrong? Why should we stop gathering together there? Why should we ignore our good teachers, even when we may disagree sometimes?

I stopped going to church because I get too irritated with all the false teachings, pastors has brainwashed many into their
tithe givings, doctrines, sacrifices, etc and it aggravates me that no one is standing up for the Truth.....

While this certain is sad, it is not universal.

sadly, no where the bible says the flock has to pay the shepherd or no where does it say the Pastor is the better one out of the "five fold"....Most pastors are a one man show, a position or title, a businessman....

Our pastors don't demand salaries, though we do support several of them. But while we are on the topic:

1Ti 5:16-18
(16) If any believing woman has relatives who are widows, let her care for them. Let the church not be burdened, so that it may care for those who are really widows.
(17) Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
(18) For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."

This clearly speaks of not only supporting the elders of the church, but supporting them well.

The only reason I would go to church is to pull out people from following such false doctrines and help them understand the truth.

Personally, I find this also sad! Sure, it's good to teach people correctly who are being misled, but there is so much blessing that God brings to us through the assembly together with His people. I'm sad to know you are missing out on all of that!

Funny thing, I get persecuted all the time at church, you know why? Because the "man of God" does not like me teaching
his flocks the Truth.
I always say, God is a jealous God, he wants your personal relationship.

2Co 4:8-11
(8) We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair;
(9) persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed;
(10) always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.
(11) For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.

Gal 2:20
(20) I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

love in Christ,
Mark

by **WOODHENOT3** on Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:00 am

Mark,

Doers—Not Hearers Only
James 1:21-22
1 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:41 am

You've read the book of Acts, yes? You've read where the early church gathered in homes, and also at the temple? How they met in the thousands, to receive regular teaching? Do you not consider this "going to church"?

Of course, in all fairness, we should remember that many of those early converts were either Jews or Pagans who had not personally met Jesus and as converts needed much instruction. Nor was there a Bible as we know it today and few could read. The good news was transmitted by word of mouth by those who had revelation by the Holy Spirit and/or the early disciples who walked with Jesus for during His ministry. They had to be taught by "readers" (similar to sages) who could read the OT manuscripts and epistles sent to them, and testify of Jesus. It was a very different scenario than what we have today. When knowledgeable, articulate students of God's word hear teachings that are obviously wrong; i.e. major truths as opposed to non-essential ones, they should have the opportunity to correct those who are teaching them since we are warned so often about false teachers, prophets, and deception.

"Church" is much, much more than fellowship. When the list of those building doctrines that are foreign to scripture keeps growing, it becomes more and more difficult to find an assembly of believers where solid truth us being preached without personal agenda. For example, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley , Chuck Pierce, Doug Sheets, Derick Prince, Benny Hinn, Ted Haggard, Peter Wagner, Brian Maclaren, Paul Cain, Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, etc., etc. etc. And many local assemblies are perpetuating the teachings of these men.

Believers should be aware, should not be made to feel guilty, and should not be ashamed to disagree and/or confront teachings they think are incorrect in accordance with scriptural guidelines imo.

The early church had need for teaching to thousands since many gentile converts had no foundation from which to draw truth, and the Jewish converts had many pre-conceived perceptions to unlearn. Paul was instrumental in teaching both. That's not to say that teaching in today's church isn't beneficial, but many believers have been such from early childhood and know the Word and are able (in most cases) to read and comprehend scriptural truth. There is always much to learn in our continuing understanding, but when a false teaching is heard, it should be corrected.

ETA: One only has to glance at the Apostasy forum of the board as well as the number of Apologetic web sites; i.e. Apprising Ministries, the Spirit of Error, etc. to see the overwhelming number of false teachings and the depth of deception for personal gain today.

by **mark s** on Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:01 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Mark,

Doers—Not Hearers Only
James 1:21-22
1 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

And we do not do the things we are taught? How can you say that?

Please come to my church first, so that you might have the chance to actually see whether these things are so.

But still, there is much that I've said that you've not responded to. Have you no reply?

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **mark s** on Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:03 pm

HI Abiding,

Even so, my thinking remains that there is a baby, and there is the bathwater, and we should save the one while discarding the other.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:23 pm

mark s wrote:Even so, my thinking remains that there is a baby, and there is the bathwater, and we should save the one while discarding the other.

Unusual analogy pertaining to false teachings, deception, and abuse in the church. Not quite sure what you meant by that.

It's the function of a shepherd to protect the sheep from these things; not perpetuate them. That's what hirelings do who are more concerned about their own agenda and salary rather than the welfare of the sheep. The sheep should not sit passively and allow themselves to take in rotten food. We should rejoice that they are mature enough in the Word to separate the true from the false. They have graduated from the milk of the Word and are ready to be teachers themselves.

I would never remain silent nor encourage a believer who said they were going to follow the likes of Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley, Chuck Pierce, Doug Sheets and the like. We point out the error, correct them with scripture, and warn of the danger of wolves in sheep's clothing.

False teachings and false teacher and were abundant throughout the NT, and Jesus and Paul fought it unrelentlessly and publicly.

....that's how I see it. Again, a glance at the Apostasy forum and Apologetic web sites will verify that there is an abundance of deception and false teachings/ers today and believers must be aware and alert.

If Woody has seen this type of deception, false teaching, and/or abuse in a number of churches, I trust his judgment in staying away.

by **mark s** on Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:01 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
mark s wrote:Even so, my thinking remains that there is a baby, and there is the bathwater, and we should save the one while discarding the other.

Unusual analogy pertaining to false teachings, deception, and abuse in the church. Not quite sure what you meant by that.

Hi Abiding,

It seems to me that WOODHENOT3 is saying we should get rid of the whole idea of "going to church" because there are some churches that aren't good. The "baby" refers to the churches that are still good.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **WOODHENOT3** on Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:48 am

Neither salvation or redemption is obtained by attending church of any flavor. Going to church building ensures the believer nothing eternal before the Father, nor does belonging to any denomination ensure anything on the last day.
In fact, demons attend church and are quite happy,
Luke 4:32-34,
32And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.
33And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

Most Churches today are glorified and inflamed beyond their relevance normally based on the mechanical tradition...
Luke 16:15,
15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
There is a difference between a spiritual church and a physical church.

I have visited over 100 Christian denominational churches and almost all follow the mechanical tradition.
I could tell you that so many people are so deceived by the doctrines of their "country club".
Most of church's bible studies are twisted in their denominational way, they are crafty in deceiving people, using the denominational doctrines, guilt givings, or anything that makes you stay within the physical church, such as memberships, etc..
Every church I visited, they always say, "we are a biblical church unlike any other church"....you always hear the comparisons in all the denominations or you must give money, etc...there are so many scripture twisting...

I learned by going to church by double checking scriptures....I learned a great deal what the Lord was showing me. It is NOT about going to church, it is about being the church. there is so much deception going on in the church and I approached many people to have discussions on the false teachings of the leaders, you be amazed what their reactions are. They are too caught up in the "authority" of their pastors. It's always the pastor who has the answer. I would say there is a majority of people who calls themselves "Christians", because they go to a christian church and they barely read the Holy Bible, they don't even bother reading whether if their pastor is preaching correctly or not, instead they trust the pastors, because he's the "man of God"....

If I were to bring someone to Christ, I would encourage that person to come to my home church and teach him or her to grow in Christ. The Gospel message is free. I would feed the person, encourage, love and show the person who the real Jesus is. I would NEVER title myself.
Most churches have membership, I believe its because it's a way to enslave Christians to feel a sense of security by manipulating their feeling of belonging to a social or political acceptance.It's a system by perversion by man alone.

Amos 5:21-24,
21I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

22Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

23Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

24But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

Let righteousness not fall upon a church, but THE CHURCH.

In Christ, Woody

by **WOODHENOT3** on Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:55 am

Mark,
I fully support a true church(spiritual church), not the apostate church. :)

Love in Christ, Woody

by **mark s** on Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:30 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Mark,
I fully support a true church(spiritual church), not the apostate church. :)

Love in Christ, Woody

What does that mean exactly??

So are people wrong to gather to listen to the elders teach? To meet in a building that is there for the purpose if meeting in?

OK to have our Sunday Services, and Potlucks, and prayer meetings? To invite the neighborhood to share an concert and a meal so we can preach the gospel to them?

OK to have Sunday School and the Youth Room and to pool our money to pay the bills for it all, and to supply the elders with their needs as they give themselves fully to the needs of others?

So long as they aren't teaching apostasy?

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **mark s** on Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:52 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Neither salvation or redemption is obtained by attending church of any flavor. Going to church building ensures the believer nothing eternal before the Father, nor does belonging to any denomination ensure anything on the last day.

Who is it that is saying otherwise?

In fact, demons attend church and are quite happy,

On this I'll have to take your word for it.

Luke 4:32-34,
32And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.
33And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,
34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

This doesn't actually support your assertion that demons are happy to attend church. A New Testament gathering of believers is not really the same thing as an Old Testament synagogue. And even so, that the man was there does not mean the demons were happy to be there.

Most Churches today are glorified and inflamed beyond their relevance normally based on the mechanical tradition...

Another statement that lacks support, but let's say its true anyway . . . what then, all churches are bad???

Luke 16:15,
15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

There is a difference between a spiritual church and a physical church.

Of course there is! The "physical church" is nothing better than a building - a roof and a few walls.

I have visited over 100 Christian denominational churches and almost all follow the mechanical tradition.

Well, you've been very busy then. How many of these have a living core of believers, vital in the faith, living in the Spirit? How could you even begin to answer such a question. Mechanical Tradition? What does that mean? You don't like their schedule of how they do things?

I could tell you that so many people are so deceived by the doctrines of their "country club".

And while I will agree with you that there are bad churches, nonetheless, you are saying "church" itself is bad.

Most of church's bible studies are twisted in their denominational way, they are crafty in deceiving people, using the denominational doctrines, guilt givings, or anything that makes you stay within the physical church, such as memberships, etc..

Again, some, certainly not all. Baby, bathwater, distinguish.

Every church I visited, they always say, "we are a biblical church unlike any other church"....you always hear the comparisons in all the denominations or you must give money, etc...there are so many scripture twisting...

Out of an hundred, "every", and "always"? Each of these? Wow. I'd truly expect at least a little variation.

If I were to bring someone to Christ, I would encourage that person to come to my home church and teach him or her to grow in Christ. The Gospel message is free. I would feed the person, encourage, love and show the person who the real Jesus is. I would NEVER title myself.

And yet if we do this as a group we are wrong. This is what you are saying.

Most churches have membership, I believe its because it's a way to enslave Christians to feel a sense of security by manipulating their feeling of belonging to a social or political acceptance.It's a system by perversion by man alone.

Actually, I think membership rosters of some form are required to maintain tax exempt status. But again, I expect there is a full range of uses out there.

Amos 5:21-24,
21I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.

22Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

23Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.

24But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.

Here again . . . you didn't answer this the first time around . . . are you thinking this passage means that God did not want the people to come to the temple? Did not want them to offer sacrifices, if done in the right heart?

Seriously, bro, our church is a bunch of Christians getting together to do all those things with each other that the Bible teaches, all the same things we also do in smaller groups, in our homes and families, in hospitals and nursing homes, in our jobs and schools, and everywhere we go. Why is it so horrible in your mind if we gather into larger groups for the purpose?

Yes, I know there are people there who aren't true believers, and even think that they are. But they are still hearing true teaching, and are still around real Christians, and I have hopes for them still.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **daffodyllady** on Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:07 pm

Okay, I quoted a few verses, Woody... What about the New Testament command to obey those who watch for our souls? After all, it is a command.

by **daffodyllady** on Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:12 pm

By the way... I notice the title of this thread has been changed... The little word "of" has been added.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:50 pm

What about the New Testament command to obey those who watch for our souls? After all, it is a command.

Just curious, daffodyllady, what you think this command entails on the part of the faithful during a 1-2 hr. church service.

I ask because the word translated "obey" in the KJV is exactly the same as the word translated "trust" in the very next verse.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

It's meaning in Thayer, Strongs, and NASEC

Thayer Definition:
1) persuade
1a) to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
1b) to make friends of, to win one’s favour, gain one’s good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
1c) to tranquillise
1d) to persuade unto, i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
2) be persuaded
2a) to be persuaded, to suffer one’s self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
2a1) to believe
2a2) to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person
2b) to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with
3) to trust, have confidence, be confident

The word is found 55 times in the NT and most often translated persuade/persuaded, trust, confidence. This is the way believers hopefully view the leader so they will follow and/or imitate that example.

Seems unreasonable (to me, at least) to encourage someone to go to church so they can "obey" a church leader. I think in context Paul is asking believers to be persuaded by or trust in the leader who watches over the flock. For what purpose does one "watch" or care for a flock?....

Heb 13:9 Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings......

That's what shepherds/overseers do. They watch the flock against strange teachings and wolves in sheep's clothing and provide an example for them to imitate.

Act 20:28 "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

Act 20:29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

When overseers watch over the flock to keep them safe from wolves, the flock has trust and confidence in them.

by **daffodyllady** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:11 am

Abiding, I humbly admit that I do not have all the answers.
It does seem to me, though, that we need to find a local body to belong to, and submit to the leaders of that body, in order to follow the Lord's command in this verse.
No human leader of a congregation will be perfect in every matter. (Just like no husband will be perfect.)
But yet, we need to humble ourselves to accept their imperfect leadership. They probably will not see eye-to-eye with each church member on every subject. Therefore, just about every christian has the opportunity to choose whether he will honor the leadership of the church, or whether he will buck it, and try to get the others in the church to dissent also.

Obedience does require trust. Therefore, I can understand how the two concepts could be linked in one Greek word.

I have interacted enough with you, Abiding, to realize we tend to disagree a good bit. I tend to be more traditional in many areas. You tend to be much more progressive. I choose not to be contentious with you when we clash. I agree to disagree, knowing that the dust will be settled eventually. God has taught me that he wants me to be peaceable, even in disagreements.

God has clearly led me to belong to a church that does not see eye-to-eye with me on many subjects. They are quite old-fashioned Mennonites. I do not think they have it right on quite a few subjects. However, they are a loving body of believers who truly love the Lord, putting faith in the shed blood of Christ for their salvation. This is what is important. Faith and Love. Love to God, and love to each other. I choose to de-emphasize peripheral subjects, and emphasize the central subjects.

My human leadership in the church God has placed me in, requires me to dress a way that I don't think God would require. That's okay. I am not going to place more of an importance on dress than I do on Faith and Love. I can submit to these godly men, and worship with them. I see tremendous gifts they bring to the body. They are faithful prayer warriors, taking very seriously the job God has given them.

I choose to honor them and obey them in every area... unless I find that what they ask would require me to disobey the Word. In such a case, I would attempt to express my disagreement in as respectful a manner as possible... just as a godly wife should express her opinions to her husband.

The Word does require submission coming from a wife, even obedience to her husband. In this day and age, those verses are usually explained away. How do you interpret the verses that tell wives to obey their husbands?

by **WOODHENOT3** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:30 am

Daff,
I made a typing error is why I added "of"...sorry....:)

by **Abiding in His Word** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:19 am

Hi Daffodyllady,

Thank you for your reply. You are correct in saying that we do tend to interpret scripture very differently; perhaps because of the background lens through which we see. I don't however see that as a bad thing as hopefully we can always learn from one another and at least understand the other's perspective.

It does seem to me, though, that we need to find a local body to belong to, and submit to the leaders of that body, in order to follow the Lord's command in this verse.

I choose to honor them and obey them in every area...

My question is regarding the scope of your obedience to overseers in the church. In other words, what do you mean by "every area?" Do you mean "every area" of the church rules, rituals, traditions, etc. of your local church and compliance during your attendance during services?

How do you interpret the verses that tell wives to obey their husbands?

Since this thread by Woody pertains to how he sees conditions in the church today, I don't want to detour from his focus. I will say succinctly, "surely you know." :mrgreen:

link

I see Woody's concern in the OP as geared primarily to the false teachings and deception in many churches and I have agreed with him in the respect that the church tends to be infiltrated today with many strange and diverse teachings that result in guilt, shame, and bondage to believers rather than the liberty afforded by Jesus' death. The emphasis on power, authority, and hierarchy create a chasm between shepherds and the laity that is foreign to Christ's emphasis on serving one another.

His observations (and mine) are not uncommon among believers and it would be wrong imho to not, at least, validate his (and others') experiences.

Those who have not seen these problems are indeed blessed. But since scripture clearly warns that there will be false teachers, false prophets, and great apostasy, we should not minimize the actual fulfillment of these prophetic words.

by **daffodyllady** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:47 pm

Thanks for your reply, Abiding... and yes, I "know"... :wink:

I do understand where Woody is coming from. After all, Christ Himself said to "come out from among them, and be ye separate." Paul said we are not to company with certain who call themselves brethren, yet who fall into certain categories. (I Cor 5:11)

I have been a member of upwards of 16 churches... eventually, my husband chose to stop going to church; he tried to start a "house church" in our home, but no one came. So he stopped trying, and began going in search of sinners to witness to. Well, somehow he ended up feeling more at home in bars than he did in a worship service...
'Nuff said.

When my husband left home, I had no church to lean on. I tried going back to the one where we had last attended, but when I tearfully asked their prayers for my husband, the response was a vast silence... except for the pianist who told me after the service that perhaps it was God's will that my husband left. Her husband had left, too, and now she had remarried. She was trying to console me somehow, telling me there were better men out there. Needless to say, I didn't go back to that church.

I agree, there are many churches full of weird, man-made doctrines. And somehow they have become the norm, rather than the exception.

Yet, the Word still says to fellowship with the local body of believers. And it still says to "obey those who have the rule over you." Therefore, the local body of Christ is supposed to have a human (fallible) pastor or two in charge. And yes, we are supposed to trust them. But we are also to submit to them, as they watch for our souls.

All I can recommend is to do as I had to do... I prayed desperately for God to show me where to go for fellowship. He did lead me miraculously, and even though I could lock horns with the leaders of this church, I am choosing to submit to God by submitting to the leadership in this church. I will stay here, and love this body of believers with all the strength I can put into it, until God definitely leads me elsewhere.

I can say that this fellowship of believers is the only kind of church I have ever found where they put 1 Corinthians 5 into shoe leather.

by **WOODHENOT3** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:01 pm

Daffy,
Why not go to different churches and fellowship with different people?
Or maybe move to another location? Perhaps, God called you to do something different..
Sorry about your husband, definitely pray for him...
God bless you, Woody

by **daffodyllady** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:36 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Daffy,
Why not go to different churches and fellowship with different people?
Or maybe move to another location? Perhaps, God called you to do something different..
Sorry about your husband, definitely pray for him...
God bless you, Woody

Well... I have tried going to different churches, and fellowshiping with different people... The problem with that approach is this: When a person spends only an hour or two a month with someone, that relationship doesn't have much chance to develop. And when someone is expecting me to come fellowship, and I choose instead to go somewhere else, they learn not to depend on me. When the chips are down, you need someone who is interdependent with you, to lean on. You need someone who you know you can depend on.

That kind of relationship takes a lot of work, and it doesn't happen even from one hour on Sundays... It takes interaction during the week, too. This is how the Mennonites operate. For instance, this week, the youth gathered to split wood for my brother-in-law, who has heart problems. (The youth cut, split and stack all the wood I need, every winter, for free. They do this for widows in the community, too.) Also this week, the women met at church to put comforters together. They brought their children to play together. This is not an unusual week. My daughter teaches the church school, which has 17 students. (Legally, they are homeschoolers, and she is their tutor.) This church is like a large, extended family, where if one member suffers, all the members feel it keenly. We pray together often outside of the church meeting setting. Our church building is all-purpose. No steeple or stained glass windows. The money goes for more important things, such as medical debts among us, etc.

I know that if I am ever unable to make a payment on a bill, this church will come to my aid. In fact, once my daughter had to have a $2000 dental procedure on her wisdom teeth. I didn't have the money, but the church simply asked "how much?", took up an offering, and handed me a check for the entire amount, no questions asked. That is how the body of Christ should operate.

But it is a little tough belonging to such a tight group. People have to choose which is more important, their opinions or their need for the Body of Christ. Those who hold their opinions dear tend to withdraw a little from the core.

I moved to this location because of a direct answer to prayer. After my husband left, he told me I had to find another place to live. I had been a stay at home mom for 17 years. I had found a part-time job, but nothing that would pay rent. I gathered the kids in to the living room and told them they may not tell anyone what I was about to pray for. I told God I had looked, and what I could afford was not out there. I asked for a trailer, on 5 acres, in the woods, with a creek, for $200 a month. Two weeks later, I called my mother to wish her a happy birthday. She knew nothing of my need, or my prayer. She asked if I wanted to move down to their 5 acre piece of woods, if they would put a trailer in for me. They would ask $200 a month. And yes, there is a creek, too. That is how I know God wants me here. The church has been my lifeline so many times when I thought that financially my back was up against the wall. They have fixed vehicles, plumbing, and garden soil. They have come to my house when I called, to pray with me about personal needs.

This is fellowship. This is a Body. I need them. And I want to be so faithful to them that they know they can count on me. Even if I do have to wear things I don't personally think I would need to wear. Big deal.

Thanks for praying with me about my hubby. I really feel God is working to bring him back, to restore him to those who love him the most. I recently got a letter from him, after years of silence. I see change happening.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:26 pm

Hi Daffodyllady,

I remember some of this from previous posts and I always rejoice that the community life you belong to is meeting your needs in so many ways. No doubt many in mega churches come and go and long for such caring and interaction with others outside of just an hour or two each week. And I agree wholeheartedly that your description of how needs are met from within the community is the way church most reflects the love we have for one another.

The beauty of the body of Christ is diversity among it's members and we must learn to appreciate that diversity. Often times that which is ordained of God in one season of a believer's life changes to fulfill a need elsewhere in the body. Change seems to me to be one of the most difficult things for believers to accept. But scripture reflects transition as the norm among God's people. And when we flow with the required transitions, He does indeed make them work together for good.

Thanks for sharing the way God continues to meet your needs. It's a blessing to read.

:hugs:

by **WOODHENOT3** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:52 pm

I see where you're coming from Daffy, :)
I pray that God continue to meet your needs with more than you can imagine! :)

God bless you, :)

by **WOODHENOT3** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Mark,
sorry I haven't gotten back to you, but back to the church subject...
there is some good churches out there, I would agree with you,

I believe the biblical idea of a church is where there is no leaders, titles, positions ,etc...
but a group of Christians getting together to share the Word of God, their spiritual gifts,
prayers, and so on....I do not like titles.....if I were a pastor, teacher, or whatever, I would not tell anyone....
get my point?

Lets put it this way, I had a neighborhood cookout at my place, I provided all the food for 50 people,
share the word of God with them and gave them hope, I learned from God I was pastoring the people that day and I didn't know that til the next day after some people asked me if I was a pastor. I realized what God was saying to me.
Jesus never titled himself God, pastor, teacher, prophet , etc....what would he be if he did?
Blessings, Woody

by **mark s** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:50 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Mark,
sorry I haven't gotten back to you, but back to the church subject...
there is some good churches out there, I would agree with you,

Hi WOODHENOT3,

Its nice to know you don't reject the idea of "churches" outright.

I believe the biblical idea of a church is where there is no leaders, titles, positions ,etc...
but a group of Christians getting together to share the Word of God, their spiritual gifts,
prayers, and so on....I do not like titles.....if I were a pastor, teacher, or whatever, I would not tell anyone....
get my point?

This isn't exactly Biblical.

Titus 1:5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you--

Paul directed Titus to appoint elders. These were particular men who were selected from among the assembly to serve a particular purpose, fulfilling a certain role within the church.

1Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you.

People knew who the elders were.

James 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

You could call for the elders specifically.

Act 21:18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.

Act 20:17 Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him.

Act 15:23 with the following letter: "The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings.

1Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

Check the context on this one. It's obviously teaching us to provide for the needs of those who give themselves to pastor us. We are told to consider them worthy of "double honor", that is, give them a good living.

Lets put it this way, I had a neighborhood cookout at my place, I provided all the food for 50 people,
share the word of God with them and gave them hope, I learned from God I was pastoring the people that day and I didn't know that til the next day after some people asked me if I was a pastor. I realized what God was saying to me.
Jesus never titled himself God, pastor, teacher, prophet , etc....what would he be if he did?
Blessings, Woody

Actually, He did:

John 13:12-14
(12) When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, "Do you understand what I have done to you?
(13) You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am.
(14) If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.

Mat 26:18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.'"

It really is OK, and Scriptural, that we recognize as such those God has given to shepherd us, and teach us, and to oversee the church. This is a huge blessing! My pastor is not perfect, but he's as good an example of Christianity as I've ever in my life seen. We have a number of elders and pastors who are wonderful believers, filled with love, who help me to be a better Christian.

Ephesians 4
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;
14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,
15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ--
16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **WOODHENOT3** on Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:26 pm

13) You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am.
(14) If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.

Jesus did not tell him he was teacher first, the person noticed who Jesus was and Jesus assured him he was teacher, that is not titling yourself. If Jesus came to a person saying, hey, I am God, that would be titling himself. People notice the amazement of his teachings.The woman who touched Jesus robe and was healed, she knew who Jesus was and Jesus didn't have to say, "I am God, touch me and you will be healed", know what I am saying?

As for Elders, it was not a position as I see it. For an example, I know a great teacher of the Bible and I would go to him as an elder to pray for me. It's not a title. It's God's work, not his, he might be appointed Elder for a time, but not a position to tell people you are an elder. I have no problem if going to an elder to pray for you if you're sick, but the common church elder I would have a problem with because they label themselves as elder. I met so many elders from church that title themselves, they turn me off because of lack of understanding scriptures ,etc.....just because they attended church longer doesnt mean they know everything, they're crafty...many elders took me out for lunch or breakfast bribing me to become member of their church. Most of the time it's about the money, sorry.....I have tested so many elders, the pride and arrogance is HIGH......if I ran into someone who is a very humbled elder Christian, I would consider him........

Mark, maybe my experience is different than yours, I actually dig into peoples hearts and when I reach it, the truth comes out of them. I visited pastors, elders and such and tested their spirit, you'd be surprised! I got punched, screamed at, threatened because I caught them with many unclean things, I don't want to generalize it but most of the leaders put up a real good face! I am extremely careful with people like them. God one time gave me a vision what a pastor was doing and I shared it with the pastor and he was shocked what I knew of his deception, I stood up and warned the people of 500....I got mocked, spitted at, etc......then, it all came true what I warned the people, only 2 people apologized me for not believing, but that made me feel so good!.... Mark, I think the denominational church is scary....I can literally see the darkness in them.....I have warned so many friends what was coming to them if they stayed at this specific church they go to, it has always came true, but of course it was from God, not me....I don't want to generalize every church but God showed me plenty and I learned a great deal!

I have a friend who never left his church to explore others, he is somewhat a legalistic, hard core....I tried to show him to go to other churches to understand the differences so he could know if he's deceived in his own doctrine.....people tend to get trapped and defensive.....

I love a church that admits they made a mistake and let the people know and to repent from that mistake.

Well Mark, I'm tired...ha....you have a nice evening and may God bless you.....I am still learning too you know...

much blessings, Woody

by **mark s** on Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:00 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
13) You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am.
(14) If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.

Jesus did not tell him he was teacher first, the person noticed who Jesus was and Jesus assured him he was teacher, that is not titling yourself. If Jesus came to a person saying, hey, I am God, that would be titling himself. People notice the amazement of his teachings.The woman who touched Jesus robe and was healed, she knew who Jesus was and Jesus didn't have to say, "I am God, touch me and you will be healed", know what I am saying?

Hi Woody,

And what will you say of the verse where Jesus instructs His disciples to refer to Him as the Teacher?

Matthew 26:18 He said, "Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, 'The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.'"

Or Peter, as he writes, "The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder. . ." (Peter 5:1)

Peter didn't have a problem either singling out others as elders, or singling out himself as an elder.

There are certain ones who are elders, and the others are not. And we are to know who is who. Again, Paul writing to Titus, "Appoint elders in every city". This is to name certain ones as elders. Its not a guessing game to know who is who.

In Titus and Timothy we see the guidelines for selecting elders, and if there are elders who don't meet those guidelines, that's a separate issue.

Perhaps you've simply never met a truly qualified elder . . .

Mark, maybe my experience is different than yours, I actually dig into peoples hearts and when I reach it, the truth comes out of them.

Are you so different than me?

I've been in a number of different churches, and seen the same things you've seen, but I've also seen where it works the way God meant, so far as I can tell. I believe I have discernment.

I hope you will one day find this too.

Love in Christ,
Mark

by **WOODHENOT3** on Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:48 pm

Hi Mark,

Matthew 26:

17 Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?”
18 And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”
19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.

Again, Jesus is not titling himself, all he is doing is telling one person that he is going to this persons house for Passover, that's all he is doing.

Mark wrote:

Or Peter, as he writes, "The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder. . ." (Peter 5:1)

Peter didn't have a problem either singling out others as elders, or singling out himself as an elder.

Peter was just speaking that he is an older person, I don't think he was titling himself as a church official.

Mark wrote:

There are certain ones who are elders, and the others are not. And we are to know who is who. Again, Paul writing to Titus, "Appoint elders in every city". This is to name certain ones as elders. Its not a guessing game to know who is who.

Acts 14,
21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.

They were appointed elders as older and wiser of that church, but those who were called as elders, did they title themselves as elders? It's ok for someone to call you an elder, but I don't think it's ok to say to people, "hi, I am an elder".
My neighbors know the things I do in Christ, when they have questions or needed encouragements, some would come to visit me as an elder. I don't title myself as one.

Blessings, Woody

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:51 pm

Hi Mark,

I notice your quote of Ephesians 4:11

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers

I've asked this question before in various threads about the church today, but don't think anyone's answered it. We know that the word translated "pastor" is more correctly translated "shepherd." I find it used only 17 times in the NT and normally referring to Jesus as the Shepherd but several times as a literal shepherd who guards a literal flock of sheep from harm.

So here's my question again... if we see this mention of a shepherd in Ephesians as an "office" in the local assembly, shouldn't the others be "offices" as well? Do you (for example) have paid apostles, evangelists, and prophets in your church? Do they have literal offices, full-time positions, and administrative assistants as pastors do? If not, why not?

It seems strange to me that only one out of the list appears to "officially" function within the local church today. Hope you can provide some clarification on this for me.

by **WOODHENOT3** on Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:00 pm

notworthcomparing wrote:Woody,

I certainly agree that the church is largely dead, irrelevant, grand standing, self-sustaining and filled with lies.

Most churches care little about the lost or dying and care more about maintaining the status quo, validating themselves and keeping the coffers filled enough to maintain.

However, it is a big statement to say that we should just throw in the towel and stay home.

Pray for God to lead you to the place He has for you. Maybe you're supposed to go somewhere dead and revive it, or maybe God has something else.

I appreciate your heart in this and appreciate your frustration. me too...

God Bless.

Happy New Year!

God bless you too!
Thanks and Happy new year!!
Love in Christ always, Woody

by **WOODHENOT3** on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:48 pm

Abiding,
I liked the questions you asked,
I looked up some scriptures that I thought was interesting!

Jeremiah 23
1Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 12:10
10Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Isaiah 56:11
11Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

Blessings, Woody