Pre-wrath timeline

[MarkT]

Well apparently son you still don't get it. Let's look at what Daniel 7:11 shows us as to when it ends and how long it lasts.

Look boy, I already answered you: Daniel 7:11 is about the beast of a nation. Re-stating your error doesn't make you correct; it just means you can't be sharpened.

The tribulation that Jesus refers to in Matt 24 begins at the AOD which is the midpoint of the last 7 years. We know when it ends as well. It begins at the AOD and ends after 3 1/2 years just as Daniel says.

I'm sorry my boy, you have a real problem with reading for comprehension; the Great Tribulation is shortened by the coming of the Day of the Lord. It is not three and a half years long.

The horn makes war with and prevails over the saints until Jesus returns and takes the kingdom from him. The horn has power over the saints for 3 1/2 years. It begins at the AOD (yr 3.5) and ends 3 1/2 years later just as scripture clearly states.

Any time somebody says "Scripture clearly shows..." I know that what we're going to be presented is a conclusion by the author rather than a clear-cut fact of Bible prophecy.

Daniel 7 does not indicate in which half the oppression of the Saints takes place, but in Revelation 13 it does because the same half that the anti-Christ makes war upon the Saints comes between his rising from the sea and the erection the talking image of the same man.

The AC makes war with and prevails over the saints until the saints possess the kingdom. When do the saints possess the kingdom?

Afterward. Just not right afterward. All Daniel 7 does is give a sequence of events. It is not a complete listing of all events. It is one part of the puzzle.

I don't think you'll be able to understand that even if you read this.

[MarkT]

Yes there is a time marker in the vision itself.

...

Except that the Lord "HAD" shortened those days. The days have already been shortened to 3 1/2 years just as Dan 12 and Dan 7 say.

I'm sorry Seeker, we're not having a conversation when you keep repeating yourself.

So far your criticism of Pre-Wrath has more to do with your misunderstandings than anything in Scripture - which you are in error about so many times over, and since you can't understand or even acknowledge counterpoints made to you - there is absolutely nothing further to say.

[burien1]

Well apparently son you still don't get it. Let's look at what Daniel 7:11 shows us as to when it ends and how long it lasts.

Look boy, I already answered you: Daniel 7:11 is about the beast of a nation. Re-stating your error doesn't make you correct; it just means you can't be sharpened.

The tribulation that Jesus refers to in Matt 24 begins at the AOD which is the midpoint of the last 7 years. We know when it ends as well. It begins at the AOD and ends after 3 1/2 years just as Daniel says.

I'm sorry my boy, you have a real problem with reading for comprehension; the Great Tribulation is shortened by the coming of the Day of the Lord. It is not three and a half years long.

The horn makes war with and prevails over the saints until Jesus returns and takes the kingdom from him. The horn has power over the saints for 3 1/2 years. It begins at the AOD (yr 3.5) and ends 3 1/2 years later just as scripture clearly states.

Any time somebody says "Scripture clearly shows..." I know that what we're going to be presented is a conclusion by the author rather than a clear-cut fact of Bible prophecy.

Daniel 7 does not indicate in which half the oppression of the Saints takes place, but in Revelation 13 it does because the same half that the anti-Christ makes war upon the Saints comes between his rising from the sea and the erection the talking image of the same man.

The AC makes war with and prevails over the saints until the saints possess the kingdom. When do the saints possess the kingdom?

Afterward. Just not right afterward. All Daniel 7 does is give a sequence of events. It is not a complete listing of all events. It is one part of the puzzle.

I don't think you'll be able to understand that even if you read this.

Board Rules

1. Our number one rule is from our Lord Himself. We are to love each other, no matter how deeply we may disagree. If we can't even handle each other, how are we going to handle persecution? So, if it can't be said in love, don't say it.

[MarkT]

I'm sorry.

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

I'm sorry my boy, you have a real problem with reading for comprehension; the Great Tribulation is shortened by the coming of the Day of the Lord. It is not three and a half years long.

No comment concerning Dan 12 I see. Here let's look again what Daniel 12 says.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Clearly 3 1/2 years. You have one verse of scripture that you misinterpret to make that claim. I show the same scripture reference proving that the days as written have already been cut short. Here let me show you again.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Except that the Lord "HAD" shortened those days. He hath shortened the days. It clearly says "HAD" not will. The days had already been shortened or no flesh would be saved. Flesh is saved so the days have to already be shortened just as Dan 7 & 12 show as well as Mark 13.

Seeker wrote: Ok you did not say that it would be abrupt to us but rather for us it will be a welcome day. So it is abrubtly cut short for the sinners and a welcome day for us. That is what I think you are saying is that correct? I wasn't eluding to whether or not the Christians were taken abrubtly but rather to the point that the Christians were there at all. If the Christians are there welcoming the day that the sinners are abrubtly taken wouldn't that have the Christians present along side the sinners the day the sinners are destroyed?

If the Christians long for the day that the sinners are removed then both groups are present the day the sinners are removed at Armageddon. Your response?

Peace,
Seeker

[MarkT]

No comment concerning Dan 12 I see. Clearly 3 1/2 years. You have one verse of scripture that you misinterpret to make that claim.

And I'll say the same thing to you. You are misinterpreting Dan 12's timeframe relative to other events; in Rev 13, the same time frame for the Saints comes before the midpoint talking image abomination. Repeating your same verse and commentary over and over again doesn't make it any stronger - or correct.

Except that the Lord "HAD" shortened those days. He hath shortened the days. It clearly says "HAD" not will.

Already answered; again, you're repeating yourself. The word shortened is in the Aorist tense; it is not in the PAST tense. You should study your Greek before making this assertion of yours because you are in error.

If the Christians long for the day that the sinners are removed then both groups are present the day the sinners are removed at Armageddon. Your response?

No, your supposition is a product of your eschatology. You seem unable to see anyone else's viewpoint, so I don't see the point in trying once again to explain it to you.

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

And I'll say the same thing to you. You are misinterpreting Dan 12's timeframe relative to other events; in Rev 13, the same time frame for the Saints comes before the midpoint talking image abomination. Repeating your same verse and commentary over and over again doesn't make it any stronger - or correct.

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Let's review once again. Who dies in Dan 11:45? It is the AC. When does the AC die? We know the AC dies at Armageddon here.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 19:20 shows the AC death and Daniel 11:45 shows the death of the AC. We can know that Dan 11:45 therefore occurs around the time of Armageddon. "At that time" are the first 3 words of chapter 12. At that time has to refer back to Dan 11 since it is the first 3 words of chapter 12. At that time there will be a time of trouble such as there never was since there has been a nation even to that same time. At that time everyone found in the book will be delivered. This is clearly a resurrection. Which makes sense because we see the AOD in Dan 11:31 and we know that occurs in the middle of the last 7 years from Dan 9:27.

Daniel 11:31 occurs at the middle of the last 7 years and then we see the death of the AC (Rev 19) in 11:45 following the AOD of 11:31. At the time spoken of in Daniel 11 there will be the worst trouble since there has been a nation. We have that shown in other scripture as well.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The tribulation is also the worst tribulation that the world has ever seen until that time. Then after that we have the cosmic signs and return of Christ. Both of these times of trouble are described as occuring just before we see the resurrection timestamping them both to be the same event. There can only be one trib that is the worst up until the time of the resurrection so again Dan 12 refers directly back to Dan 11 and links it to the last 3 1/2 years after the AOD of 11:31.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Who is the he that scatters the power of the holy people for 3 1/2 years?

Already answered; again, you're repeating yourself. The word shortened is in the Aorist tense; it is not in the PAST tense. You should study your Greek before making this assertion of yours because you are in error.

I am not talking about the word "shortened" what does "had" and "hath" mean in Greek? Obviously shortened means to cut short but I am referring to when it happens.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

I know what shortened means what does had and hath mean in Greek?

in Rev 13, the same time frame for the Saints comes before the midpoint talking image abomination.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Where do you see a timestamp that places the events in Rev 13 before the midpoint of the last 7 years? Please provide the scripture that backs your statement.

Peace,
Seeker

[MarkT]

Let's review once again.

And once again, all we're going to do is show that we look at the Bible very differently. You're not teaching me anything at this point other than how you view the Bible, which is increasingly suspect to me. Likewise, your criticism of Pre-Wrath then becomes based on the fact that it doesn't comport with how you see things - which I am coming to believe is skewed quite significantly from how I see events are portrayed in Bible prophecy.

Who dies in Dan 11:45? It is the AC. When does the AC die? We know the AC dies at Armageddon here.

Actually, let me stop you right there.

The anti-Christ doesn't "die" in Daniel 11:45.

The English "yet" is a very good translation for the Hebrew future perfect tense. It WILL happen; it just doesn't happen at that specific point!

The juncture between Daniel 11:45 and 12:1 (successive verses) puts this time within the period where the Antichrist is actively waging war against the nations and it puts his army with him in his royal tent (Daniel actually uses a Persian word here for ‘royal’) at Jerusalem. This has a direct link to the description Luke gives for knowing when the same midweek point is about to happen. Since the Antichrist will have to go to Jerusalem prior to entering it, surrounding it is the precursory action to take.

DA 11:45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain.
LK 21:20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies,

We can know that Dan 11:45 therefore occurs around the time of Armageddon.

Ah, NO.

It is the midpoint eve. The anti-Christ has to "get" to Jerusalem and when he does, he encamps about it before entering. It is upon his arrival IN Jerusalem that he is presented with his war trophy: the talking image of himself by the false prophet of Israel.

"At that time" are the first 3 words of chapter 12. At that time has to refer back to Dan 11 since it is the first 3 words of chapter 12.

Wow! Where you get that kind of conclusion shows how tenative your exegesis is based!

At that time specifies a time marker which then sequences the next action as an event which happens when the anti-Christ encamps around Jerusalem on the eve of the midpoint.

At that time - one who is like God arises. There is a response to the midpoint abomination: the Two Witnesses first of all.

AND there shall be Great Tribulation: this comports exactly with the other Synoptic Olivet Discourse accounts where Jesus says following the midpoint abomination that there will be Great Tribulation. Both as specific and unique as the worst time ever.

The Great Tribulation is shortened! It is abruptly cut off by the otherwise unexpected and unknowable beforehand Day of the Lord. The Great Tribulation does not last three and a half years... how long can you go without food, shelter, and water?

Following that is the first Resurrection.

Following that in verse 12:2 is the second Resurrection - after the Millennium.

Daniel 11:45-12:2 follows the general sequence of events I have laid out.
It does omit many events, but then it is only talking about a few things.

[MarkT]

Already answered; again, you're repeating yourself. The word shortened is in the Aorist tense; it is not in the PAST tense. You should study your Greek before making this assertion of yours because you are in error.

I am not talking about the word "shortened" what does "had" and "hath" mean in Greek? Obviously shortened means to cut short but I am referring to when it happens. I know what shortened means what does had and hath mean in Greek?

You're really showing your ignorance of how we get to read the Bible in our own language.

There is no "hath" in the Greek. Nor is there a "had." The Greek language conjugates verbs quite differently than our Germanic-based English. The verb tense is done in the inflected conjugation of the very verb: shorten.

It is in the Aorist tense which has NO equivalent in the English.

The Aorist tense is often translated for lack of any other way to convey what it means in the past perfect English tense. That, however, does not fully convey what it would mean in the Greek.

Besides, you're using only one of the Synoptic verses for this utterance of Jesus. The other does not translate like you'd like to use it, so you ignore it...

As much trouble as you seem to have understanding what is written in plain, modern English; comprehending Shakespearean English is going to be doubly hard. And if that is doubly hard for you - I don't think you're going to have an easy go of another language altogether.

As far as trying to teach you, you're proving to be a most difficult student. I don't think I can teach you because you're literally not up to speed in your education as of yet. You most certainly have nothing to teach me at this point as far as language goes. I just hope you're not teaching younger students on this type of language in any formal setting for their sake.

[MarkT]

in Rev 13, the same time frame for the Saints comes before the midpoint talking image abomination.

Where do you see a timestamp that places the events in Rev 13 before the midpoint of the last 7 years? Please provide the scripture that backs your statement.

Read on McDuff:

1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?"

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear. 10 "If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed."This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people.

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people.

14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

Put into smaller bullet form the events of chapter reads as follows:

• 1. The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
• 5. Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
• 7. He wages war against the Saints.
• 11. Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
• 14. Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
• 15-17. Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.

This allows a boiling the chapter down to a succinct sequence-of-events. The picture chapter 13 gives the linear order to the start of the one ‘seven’ proceeds as:

• the rise of the fourth terrible nation,
• the rise of the anti-Christ, who wages war against Christians,
• the rise of the false prophet who displays “miracles,”
• capped by the revealed midpoint abomination: a talking image,
• followed by two laws which Christians are told not to follow.

That is the linear order of the narrative John gives. It ends with an identifiable specific and unique event: the midpoint abomination. So when it comes to pegging which half the anti-Christ is to rule, unopposed, it is the first half - after he rises and before he is set up by the false prophet.

[Douggg]

AND there shall be Great Tribulation: this comports exactly with the other Synoptic Olivet Discourse accounts where Jesus says following the midpoint abomination that there will be Great Tribulation. Both as specific and unique as the worst time ever.

The Great Tribulation is shortened! It is abruptly cut off by the otherwise unexpected and unknowable beforehand Day of the Lord. The Great Tribulation does not last three and a half years... how long can you go without food, shelter, and water.

Mark T,

Daniel 12:11-12 sets the time of the AOD, the setting up of which is the beginning of the Great Tribulation, to 1290 and 1335 days. Both of those are greater than 1260 days. Therefore, since the prophecies are considered true, the time of the Great Tribulation cannot shortened after the events begin. The length of the Great Tribulation is "limited" to what the bible has already defined.

Doug

[MarkT]

Douggg: I find your theory on Dan 12's to be not worthy of serious consideration. You are looking at the words one way and one way only that actually voids what Gabriel said in Daniel 9:27 about the abomination coming in the middle of the one 'seven' and you would also argue against what Jesus said by way of your (erroneous) conclusion that the Great Tribulation cannot be shortened. Jesus said the Great Tribulation will be shortened and as Matthew termed it in the Greek, as one docks an animals tail: suddenly by chopping it off.

There is another way of looking at Daniel 12's timing and that is for two additional periods of time to exist after the conclusion of the one 'seven' sees all of God's desolations poured out on the desolator - the anti-Christ - before the Millennium begins in earnest and God heals not only the people who survive, but the land and sea as well.

Such a time would allow the three previous beasts of Daniel 7 who comprise the fourth terrible beast as Rev 13:2 reveals to survive the fourth's destruction when its "head" is cut off which controlled the three body parts to live as Daniel 7:12 insists because it is a fact of prophecy.

Such a time would also allow the ingathering which happens at Mount Zion to collect there and with the Sukkot, the Festival of Booths demonstrates, an encampment of a temporary nature until such time as Israel can inherit the lands as Ezekiel says that God determines.

Many individual eschatologies don't account for the 30 and 45 day periods, but in accordance with Scripture, I do. Thus the surviving Remnant is not "safe" until they make it to the Millennium and in accordance with Hosea 6:1-2, Jesus heals the wounds they have suffered in the Wrath of God.

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

DA 11:45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain.
LK 21:20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies,

Seeker wrote:
We can know that Dan 11:45 therefore occurs around the time of Armageddon.

Ah, NO.

It is the midpoint eve. The anti-Christ has to "get" to Jerusalem and when he does, he encamps about it before entering. It is upon his arrival IN Jerusalem that he is presented with his war trophy: the talking image of himself by the false prophet of Israel.

Before we read Dan 11:45 we read Daniel 11:31.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )


Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In Daniel 11:31 we see what Jesus referred to in Matthew 24 as the abomination of desolation. We also see it in Dan 9:27. Around the middle of the week we see the AOD. So the eve of the mid point would be associated with the AOD shown in Dan 11:31 as well. After Dan 11:31 we have those of understanding dying by the sword, by flame, by captivity, and by spoil. The tribulation starts at 11:31 as can clearly be seen by those of understanding dying to the sword following the AOD in 11:31. That marks the midpoint not 11:45. 11:45 is where he meets his end. Arms stand on his part in 11:31 and then he comes to his end in 11:45.

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

He has to come to his end before the resurrection shown in 12:1-2. Neither resurrection happens until after Armageddon. He has to die sometime after the AOD of 11:31 but before either of the resurrections shown in Rev 20. So the resurrection of Dan 12:1-2 is after Armageddon it has to be. That sets the timing for Daniel 12 which has bookends consisting of the AOD on the beginning side and the resurrection on the ending side. His death has to happen between those two points. Those two points are represented by Dan 11:31 and Dan 12:1-2 respectively. So he comes to his end in 11:45 just like the plain simple reading of the words.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Mark

You're really showing your ignorance of how we get to read the Bible in our own language.

There is no "hath" in the Greek. Nor is there a "had." The Greek language conjugates verbs quite differently than our Germanic-based English. The verb tense is done in the inflected conjugation of the very verb: shorten.

Now that wasn't very nice you almost hurt my feelings...lol. Why would the King James translators choose the word had? I mean they had their choice of words to use why do you suppose they threw the "had" in there? It indicates a past tense that's what "had" means and I am sure they knew what it meant when they chose it.

Mar 13:20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, whom He has chosen, He has shortened the days.

This is how the Modern King James translates it. Unless the Lord had shortened the days....He has shortened the days. They seem to translate it the way I read it. They say He has shortened the days. The 3 1/2 years is the shortened amount of time. That is why we see 3 1/2 years in both these books of Daniel (7&12). The 3 1/2 years is the shortened time period. If it were to last longer than the 3 1/2 years no flesh would be saved. Mark clearly says it has been shortened in the Modern King James translation. Besides it says that if the days weren't shortened no flesh would be alive and the elect survive proving the days were already cut short. Daniel 7 and 12 give specific 3 1/2 year timeframes which represent the shortened days. The days have been shortened as evident by the fact that saints survive and they are made war with for 3 1/2 years by the AC. For those both to be true then the 3 1/2 years would have to represent the "shortened" time period just as the MKJ shows by using the phrase "has shortened". I guess you would have to say the translators of the Modern King James were ignorant as well as they seem to agree with my version of events here.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

Put into smaller bullet form the events of chapter reads as follows:
1. The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
5. Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
7. He wages war against the Saints.
11. Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
14. Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
15-17. Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.

This allows a boiling the chapter down to a succinct sequence-of-events. The picture chapter 13 gives the linear order to the start of the one ‘seven’ proceeds as:
the rise of the fourth terrible nation,
the rise of the anti-Christ, who wages war against Christians,
the rise of the false prophet who displays “miracles,”
capped by the revealed midpoint abomination: a talking image,
followed by two laws which Christians are told not to follow.
That is the linear order of the narrative John gives. It ends with an identifiable specific and unique event: the midpoint abomination. So when it comes to pegging which half the anti-Christ is to rule, unopposed, it is the first half - after he rises and before he is set up by the false prophet.

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You seem to be saying that the AC's 42 months here in Rev 13 occur during the first half of the last 7 years? He overcomes the saints and has power over every nation during the first 3 1/2 years according to your view of things.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Here in Daniel 11 we see those with understanding killed by the sword after the AOD in 11:31 and they fall until the end but in your scenario they fall before the AOD.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

And here we see that he wears out the saints for 3 1/2 years until the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. The saints possess the kingdom after the end of the last 7 years. So the saints here in Dan 7 are under the AC for the second half of the last 7 years also just like Dan 11. In your scenario the saints would be under the AC for 7 years rather than just for the 42 months that he has power in Rev 13. You have him getting an additional 42 months rather than just the 42 months he has power for in Rev 13.

Peace,
Seeker

[Douggg]

Douggg: I find your theory on Dan 12's to be not worthy of serious consideration. You are looking at the words one way and one way only that actually voids what Gabriel said in Daniel 9:27 about the abomination coming in the middle of the one 'seven' and you would also argue against what Jesus said by way of your (erroneous) conclusion that the Great Tribulation cannot be shortened. Jesus said the Great Tribulation will be shortened and as Matthew termed it in the Greek, as one docks an animals tail: suddenly by chopping it off.

There is another way of looking at Daniel 12's timing and that is for two additional periods of time to exist after the conclusion of the one 'seven' sees all of God's desolations poured out on the desolator - the anti-Christ - before the Millennium begins in earnest and God heals not only the people who survive, but the land and sea as well.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

At the end of the 1335 days Daniel is to stand in his lot. In order for that to happen, Daniel will have to be resurrected.

There is not a separate resurrection in the bible for the old testament saints. Since there is no separate resurrection, Daniel will be resurrected at the time of the resurrection/rapture - and will be among those who return with Jesus to destroy those armies who have gathered together to make war on him in Revelation 19.

The 1335 days thus end when Jesus returns bringing Daniel with him, since there is no exclusive resurrection in the bible for the old testament saints.

There is not a issue of the God's wrath being poured out on the Antichrist beast's kingdom in the 7 vials which take place during the second half of the 70th week.

Daniel 9:27 in the middle of the week does not mean the mid "point", the single day, but the middle part of the week, since Daniel 12:11-12 pins down when the AOD will be setup to be worshiped as 1335 days prior to Jesus's return bringing the saints and Daniel with Him.

Such a time would allow the three previous beasts of Daniel 7 who comprise the fourth terrible beast as Rev 13:2 reveals to survive the fourth's destruction when its "head" is cut off which controlled the three body parts to live as Daniel 7:12 insists because it is a fact of prophecy.

The nations associated with this present earth will be allowed to retain their dominion into the millennial reign of Christ, to a point. They will be under the dominion of Christ. At the end of the millenium and the last rebellion lead by Satan, the Great White Throne judgment takes place, ending the time of those nations associated with this current earth.

Such a time would also allow the ingathering which happens at Mount Zion to collect there and with the Sukkot, the Festival of Booths demonstrates, an encampment of a temporary nature until such time as Israel can inherit the lands as Ezekiel says that God determines.

Many individual eschatologies don't account for the 30 and 45 day periods, but in accordance with Scripture, I do. Thus the surviving Remnant is not "safe" until they make it to the Millennium and in accordance with Hosea 6:1-2, Jesus heals the wounds they have suffered in the Wrath of God.

Your view, if I recall, has Jesus returning with the saints as some time other than the end of the 70th week. The 1290 days and the 1335 days fit within the 70th week. The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the Jews from around the world back to Israel, which takes place immediately upon Jesus's return.

Doug

[MarkT]

In Daniel 11:31 we see what Jesus referred to in Matthew 24 as the abomination of desolation.

Nope. That is a specific abomination as denoted by the prefix ha-. You are simply wrong and again we will continue to disagree. Why am I not surprised?

That abomination was at the end of the generational war described for much of chapter 11.

The setting up of Zeus in the Temple in 168 B.C. and the sacrifice a pig on the altar caused the Temple to be unclean for 2300 days.

That archetype abomination sets the stage for the end-time abomination mentioned in Rev 13:14-15.

Verses 31-35 serve as the lens of dual focus. You need to read what the Maccabees did in the second century before Christ. Those verses may apply in the end-times, but that is not certain. I think they will, however, "even unto the time of the end..." then applies to more than one time - it is an ongoing education for those who would be wise.

[MarkT]

He has to come to his end before the resurrection shown in 12:1-2.

Nope. In 2Th 2, which does mention the anti-Christ and the Rapture, the Rapture comes after the anti-Christ is revealed. He will be undone and will meet his end afterward.

In Daniel 11:45 you are grasping at straws for your Post-Trib eschatology pointing to any wording which suggests an end and neglecting to note, properly, that his end is a foregone conclusion - however - it does NOT happen then but will as denoted by the future perfect Hebrew verb structure.

[MarkT]

Neither resurrection happens until after Armageddon.

Your statement is a product of your eschatology. “It has to be,” is your conclusion because of your Post-Trib eschatology.

The first resurrection is not complete until the fifth Seal martyrs are made alive after the one 'seven' is over when the Two Witnesses complete their number. That is when John pronounces it...

HOWEVER - the resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of the Elect who are still alive and remain after the Great Tribulation has decimated the Church happens after the shortened time of the Great Tribulation with the sixth Seal - before any of God's Wrath goes forth.

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

Nope. That is a specific abomination as denoted by the prefix ha-. You are simply wrong and again we will continue to disagree. Why am I not surprised?

That abomination was at the end of the generational war described for much of chapter 11.

The setting up of Zeus in the Temple in 168 B.C. and the sacrifice a pig on the altar caused the Temple to be unclean for 2300 days.

That archetype abomination sets the stage for the end-time abomination mentioned in Rev 13:14-15.

Verses 31-35 serve as the lens of dual focus. You need to read what the Maccabees did in the second century before Christ. Those verses may apply in the end-times, but that is not certain. I think they will, however, "even unto the time of the end..." then applies to more than one time - it is an ongoing education for those who would be wise.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Could not have happened in 168 BC Dan 12 says that there is only 1290 days after the removing of the daily sacrifice. Where is the removal of the daily sacrifice?

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Here is where we see the daily sacrifice removed. 1290 days later and its over. You have it over 2,100 years ago.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Jesus said these words long after 168 BC so it is totally impossible that He was referring to 168 BC. When you "see" the AOD Daniel spoke of. They would not be able to see it if it had occured over 160 years before Jesus spoke the words. The AOD in 11:31 is a future event because there are only 1290 days after it and there have been many more than 1290 days since 168 BC when you say the AOD occured.

Peace,
Seeker

[MarkT]

It indicates a past tense that's what "had" means and I am sure they knew what it meant when they chose it.

You are really showing your allegiance to a lot of ancient people who had very limited resources and knowledge.

You are also revealing your lack of scholarly drive to learn something else beside your own thinking.

Tell me: HOW LONG COULD YOU SURVIVE IF YOU HAD NO ELECTRICITY, COULDN'T BUY FOOD IN A GROCERY STORE, COULDN'T PAY YOUR RENT OR MORTGAGE, COULDN'T BUY GAS FOR YOUR CAR TO GET AROUND, AND WERE HUNTED FOR THE TEST OF WORSHIP OF A TALKING IMAGE?

The Days are not shortened until they come. The midpoint abomination has not yet come. Jesus told the story in that order; you want to reverse it to get around the shortened Great Tribulation or just as bad - lengthen it to the whole of the rest of the one 'seven' so the "tale" runs its full course - ALL BECAUSE OF YOUR POST-TRIB ESCHATOLOGY!

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

Just a quick question. What day number (approx) do you say Jesus raptures the saints. How long does Jesus and the saints hang out while dispencing the wrath? I say it is after day 2520 when Jesus returns around what day would be your best guess? How long do the saints and Jesus wait around before Armageddon?

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

You are really showing your allegiance to a lot of ancient people who had very limited resources and knowledge.

What is ancient about the Modern King James version? That is the version with that says "has shortened". You saying that the scholars who translated the Modern King James had very limited resources?

Peace,
Seeker

[MarkT]

Could not have happened in 168 BC Dan 12 says that there is only 1290 days after the removing of the daily sacrifice.

Your lack of understanding is astounding.

Daniel is first told of the near-term future.
That goes until the pivotal abomination of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabee rebellion.
Verses 36-40 describe a King never yet seen.
Verses 41-45 describe a set of actions, a timeline of events.
What has happened is that the Man in Linen shifts the near-term to the far-term.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the archetype for the end-time anti-Christ.

Daniel 12's numbers are additional information given as the result of a question by Daniel (which isn't exactly answered) which is the only reference we have to the two time periods after the one 'seven' which separate it from the Millennium.

[MarkT]

You saying that the scholars who translated the Modern King James had very limited resources?

Why do you have such problems understanding what other people say? I wasn't talking about the modern King James.

The "Modern" King James adheres to the one of four hundred years ago. It is no better a translation than the original because the changes they made were so slight.

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

Tell me: HOW LONG COULD YOU SURVIVE IF YOU HAD NO ELECTRICITY, COULDN'T BUY FOOD IN A GROCERY STORE, COULDN'T PAY YOUR RENT OR MORTGAGE, COULDN'T BUY GAS FOR YOUR CAR TO GET AROUND, AND WERE HUNTED FOR THE TEST OF WORSHIP OF A TALKING IMAGE?

Its called faith Mark. How did Moses and the Israeli's survive for 40 years?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These guys did it.

Peace,
Seeker

[MarkT]

Just a quick question. What day number (approx) do you say Jesus raptures the saints. How long does Jesus and the saints hang out while dispencing the wrath? I say it is after day 2520 when Jesus returns around what day would be your best guess? How long do the saints and Jesus wait around before Armageddon?

It's called faith? It's called answer the question:

HOW LONG COULD YOU SURVIVE IF YOU HAD NO ELECTRICITY, COULDN'T BUY FOOD IN A GROCERY STORE, COULDN'T PAY YOUR RENT OR MORTGAGE, COULDN'T BUY GAS FOR YOUR CAR TO GET AROUND, AND WERE HUNTED FOR THE TEST OF WORSHIP OF A TALKING IMAGE?

You tell me when God will abruptly cut short the Great Tribulation. I'm not picking a day. It could be a few months; it's not up to me, and any guess I could make wouldn't be worth my time to type.

[MarkT]

WHICH ARE STILL ALIVE AND REMAIN -

WHY IS IT THAT PAUL TERMS THEM SO?

[MarkT]

You seem to be saying that the AC's 42 months here in Rev 13 occur during the first half of the last 7 years?

You really do have a reading comprehension problem... how long have I been saying this? YES! It's the first half!

Here in Daniel 11 we see those with understanding killed by the sword after the AOD in 11:31 and they fall until the end but in your scenario they fall before the AOD.

NO! The Church will be waged war upon during his ascendency.

The Church is nearly elimated by the Great Tribulation, so that happens AFTER the midpoint abomination.

The saints possess the kingdom after the end of the last 7 years.

So? Yes - AFTER.

So AFTER the Saints are oppressed, and AFTER he is destoryed - they WILL possess the Kingdom because Christ lets us rule in His stead.

In your scenario the saints would be under the AC for 7 years rather than just for the 42 months that he has power in Rev 13. You have him getting an additional 42 months rather than just the 42 months he has power for in Rev 13.

It's called the rise and fall of the anti-Christ.

He is unopposed in the first half, he has free reign to do as he pleases.
After the midpoint, he has to deal with the Two Witnesses.
After the Day of the Lord, he is dealt with by the Lord.

It will not go well for him and he will be continually thwarted even though he is ultimately victorious over his earthly enemies at Armageddon and so gains the whole world - only to lose his soul.

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

Why do you have such problems understanding what other people say? I wasn't talking about the modern King James.

The "Modern" King James adheres to the one of four hundred years ago. It is no better a translation than the original because the changes they made were so slight.

Ok how about these translations are they in error as well?

New International Version (©1984)

If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

English Standard Version (©2001)

And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

"Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

International Standard Version (©2008)

If the Lord had not shortened those days, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect whom he has chosen, he has shortened those days.

American Standard Version

And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect's sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

http://bible.cc/mark/13-20.htm

All of these versions also agree with the KJV and MKJV. Sorry Mark I will have to take all of their translations over yours.

Peace,
Seeker

[MarkT]

At the end of the 1335 days Daniel is to stand in his lot.

Nope. That promise to Daniel is a separate sentence. The "but" splits the two apart.

Daniel receives his inheritance, just as we will receive ours on the Day of the Lord with our resurrection from simple death and the Rapture of the few of us who are still alive and remain after the shortened Great Tribulation nearly wiped out the Church.

The reason it is the "Elect" is that the resurrection of the Dead in Christ can include OT Saints as well as NT Saints.

However, only Christians will be Raptured.

[MarkT]

Ok how about these translations are they in error as well?
All of these versions also agree with the KJV and MKJV.
Sorry Mark I will have to take all of their translations over yours.

This is really getting silly.

Why don't you try Matthew?

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That's the King James for you.

Now I already TOLD YOU that the aorist tense is usually translated as our simple past tense.
HOWEVER - the Greek aorist tense does not mean the same!
Your ignorance about the base language of the NT is astonding...

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

Daniel is first told of the near-term future.
That goes until the pivotal abomination of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabee rebellion.
Verses 36-40 describe a King never yet seen.
Verses 41-45 describe a set of actions, a timeline of events.
What has happened is that the Man in Linen shifts the near-term to the far-term.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes is the archetype for the end-time anti-Christ.

Simple question Mark.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Does this occur around the middle of the last 7 years or not?

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

HOW LONG COULD YOU SURVIVE IF YOU HAD NO ELECTRICITY, COULDN'T BUY FOOD IN A GROCERY STORE, COULDN'T PAY YOUR RENT OR MORTGAGE, COULDN'T BUY GAS FOR YOUR CAR TO GET AROUND, AND WERE HUNTED FOR THE TEST OF WORSHIP OF A TALKING IMAGE?

Until Jesus returned how long could you?

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

You tell me when God will abruptly cut short the Great Tribulation. I'm not picking a day. It could be a few months; it's not up to me, and any guess I could make wouldn't be worth my time to type.

How about more than 5 months?

Peace,
Seeker

[MarkT]

Dan 11:31 Does this occur around the middle of the last 7 years or not?

No, it doesn't.

The wording in the Hebrew is different between Dan 11:31 and Dan 9:27.

Daniel 11:31 is a specific abomination.
Daniel 9:27 is in the plural - which can denote how great, or in the case of evil, how terrible something is.

Dan 11:31 happened in the later part of the sixty-two 'sevens' in the second century B.C.
It sets up the lens of Dual Focus which shifts the Man in Linen's explanation to Daniel from his short-term future to the long-term future.

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

This is really getting silly.

Why don't you try Matthew?

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That's the King James for you.

Now I already TOLD YOU that the aorist tense is usually translated as our simple past tense.
HOWEVER - the Greek aorist tense does not mean the same!
Your ignorance about the base language of the NT is astonding...

Well we have beat this one to death and both made our points so I will move on to the fun stuff next. Can you describe the physical return of Jesus from the pre-wrath perspective? Like Jesus arrives on the clouds and so on. I want to compare your description with the description that we find of Jesus in scripture when He returns. So make your description as accurate to scripture as possible so we can compare and see how close pre-wrath mirros the scriptures that we have which describe the return of Jesus.

Peace,
Seeker

[MarkT]

Until Jesus returned how long could you?

You're a very big, brave man when typing behind an electric computer screen with your cental air system running, food in the refrigerator and no one pounding on your door.

[MarkT]

Can you describe the physical return of Jesus from the pre-wrath perspective?

Yes.

I want to compare your description with the description that we find of Jesus in scripture when He returns. So make your description as accurate to scripture as possible so we can compare and see how close pre-wrath mirros the scriptures that we have which describe the return of Jesus.

I don't jump through your hoops seeker...

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

Ok I will go dig it up out of one of your previous posts I am sure it is there somewhere with all that you wrote. Anyway do you really have to be so rude?

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

Pre-Wrath preserves Scripture by having the last day of the Church Age, the Day of the Lord, come at some unknowable time after the midpoint abomination which starts the Great Tribulation. Before all the Elect are wiped out, God the Father will abruptly cut off the Great Tribulation by the signs enumerated in Scripture in the Olivet Discourse and the sixth Seal.


However, in the overall linear narrative – that’s a story… this happens, and then that happens and so on. Most of the Bible is made up of linear narratives or story-telling. – in the linear narrative of the Seal/Scroll chronology of which 11:15 is a part – the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of the Elect who are still alive and are left upon the earth happened quite some time before with the breaking of the sixth Seal.

And the sixth Seal is followed by the seventh Seal breaking and then-and-only-then can the Scroll be opened and the Trumpets proceed in linear story-telling narrative fashion advancing both clock and calendar to the end of the one ‘seven.’

Trying to put together your picture of the return of Jesus but got confused here in these two accounts of the 6th seal. In the top quote you seem to say that the trib is cut short at the 6th seal but then in the bottom account it appears that you say it happens quite some time before the 6th seal. I want to try to get an accurate view of your return of Christ so if you could clarify it would be appreciated.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

come at some unknowable time after the midpoint abomination which starts the Great Tribulation.

I thought you were saying that the tribulation is during the first half of the last 7 years. Here you say it is after the AOD.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

You tell me when God will abruptly cut short the Great Tribulation. I'm not picking a day. It could be a few months; it's not up to me, and any guess I could make wouldn't be worth my time to type.

FACTS:
This time in the Olivet Discourse comes before the specific and unique sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord.
That specific and unique event is also described in the sixth Seal.
The gathering of the Elect in the Olivet Discourse results in the Great Multitude arriving in Heaven after the sixth Seal is broken.
An Elder says the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, again linking it to the Olivet Discourse.
The gathering of the Elect in the Olivet Discourse by the Son of Man on the clouds matches the description of the Harvest where the Son of Man sits on the clouds and reaps the earth.

Ok so you have the elect in heaven after the 6th seal. The same gathering as we see in Matthew 24. Now here's the problem with your timeline.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

The 5th trumpet itself lasts for 5 months. That would mean that the rapture has to occur at least 5 months before the 5th trumpet. The 5th trumpet is shown before the vials are poured out so no doubt the timeframe would be greater than 5 months. If the 5th trumpet occured at the very end of the last 7 years that would place the pre-wrath rapture/resurrection at least 5 months before the end of the last 7 years. The problem is that there are no resurrections shown 5 months before the end of the last 3 1/2 years that I can see.

Here's the other problem.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Every eye will see Jesus arrive at least 5 months before the end of the last 7 years. So what is the reaction of the people on earth during the 5 months after they see Jesus arrive and rapture the saints while they look on? What do all these sinners do for 5 months while Jesus is hanging out with the saints He resurrected? Jesus isn't reigning at that time yet so how would you describe the 5 months between the arrival of Jesus and Armageddon?

Peace,
Seeker

[Douggg]

You tell me when God will abruptly cut short the Great Tribulation. I'm not picking a day. It could be a few months; it's not up to me, and any guess I could make wouldn't be worth my time to type.

Mark T, it could also be one day or maybe one hour....which since without any biblical basis for how long the great tribulation is cut short, your interpretation is meaningless.

Doug

[Douggg]

FACTS:
This time in the Olivet Discourse comes before the specific and unique sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord.
That specific and unique event is also described in the sixth Seal.
The gathering of the Elect in the Olivet Discourse results in the Great Multitude arriving in Heaven after the sixth Seal is broken.
An Elder says the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, again linking it to the Olivet Discourse.
The gathering of the Elect in the Olivet Discourse by the Son of Man on the clouds matches the description of the Harvest where the Son of Man sits on the clouds and reaps the earth.

Mark T, the fallacy in your reasoning is that you are thinking the great multitude in Revelation 7 is "all", everyone, who comes out of the great tribulation. The great multitude are those in found in the 5th seal, who are only part of those who come out of the great tribulation, who are told to wait until the rest of their brothers are martyred.

In Revelation 14, Jesus, sickle in hand, where does it say anyone is resurrection or raptured in those verses? The sickle is an implement of God's wrath in those verses, not his salvation.

Doug

[MarkT]

come at some unknowable time after the midpoint abomination which starts the Great Tribulation.

I thought you were saying that the tribulation is during the first half of the last 7 years. Here you say it is after the AOD.

You're the one who says the Great Tribulation lasts three and a half years. Jesus said it was shortened, and that is what I use.

In the first half, the anti-Christ wages war upon Christians. Evangelism being outlawed would be such an act of this "war." It's called "oppression," like what went on in communist countries. That lasts the whole of the first half of the one 'seven' IAW with Daniel 7 and Rev 13.

At the midpoint, two laws go into effect which persecute the Church. These laws see outright martyrdom with the "Daniel test" of worship or die and widespread death and misery when modern people can't operate in a social economic environment for their very livelihood. It is this time which is shortened -abruptly- -on the last day- whenever the Day of the Lord comes.

[MarkT]

The problem is that there are no resurrections shown 5 months before the end of the last 3 1/2 years that I can see.

- That you can see, I know.

So what is the reaction of the people on earth during the 5 months after they see Jesus arrive and rapture the saints while they look on?

The Rapture leaves bodies behind... they might not understand the Rapture. Otherwise, they curse God and don't repent; that's what the Bible says.

What do all these sinners do for 5 months while Jesus is hanging out with the saints He resurrected?

What does it matter? They're going to die... and I don't care. That is God's plan.

And who says Jesus is just "hanging out?" You do; I don't. He is trampling out God's Wrath on the Day of the Lord's second half and He is also shepherding the Remnant around so they survive the second half of the one 'seven.'

Jesus isn't reigning at that time yet so how would you describe the 5 months between the arrival of Jesus and Armageddon?

Jesus is reigning now, it just isn't on earth just yet.

It is a time of God's Wrath and that Wrath takes time. I'd say that the first Trumpet alone could have the earth reeling for a year with the destruction of the world's food supply... All in all, I think God's Wrath will take more than three years.

[MarkT]

Mark T, it could also be one day or maybe one hour....which since without any biblical basis for how long the great tribulation is cut short, your interpretation is meaningless.

It is cut short on a day and at an hour which we know not.

I do not think the Day of the Lord is the Millennial time period as you believe. Thus, my eschatology seems meaningless to you.

[MarkT]

...the fallacy in your reasoning is that you are thinking the great multitude in Revelation 7 is "all", everyone, who comes out of the great tribulation. The great multitude are those in found in the 5th seal, who are only part of those who come out of the great tribulation, who are told to wait until the rest of their brothers are martyred.

In Revelation 14, Jesus, sickle in hand, where does it say anyone is resurrection or raptured in those verses? The sickle is an implement of God's wrath in those verses, not his salvation.

The fallacy in your reasoning is the fifth Seal martyrs are not made alive at the time it is opened and they are revealed, thus, they are not "in" the resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who are still alive and remain on the earth to see Jesus coming without dying.

Another fallacy in your reasoning furthermore is the Dead in Christ includes many times as many martyrs as will be slain. Thus the Great Multitude being unable to be numbered, especially after John has 'numbered' the Angels at 100 million, is significant.

Yet another fallacy in your reasoning is how you think we should be Raptured... Many people would solve our "sin problem" which separates us from the Father with something nice, like prayer and ointment -- God used nails and rough-hewn wooden cross: the most diabolical and cruel form of torture which strictly leads to death as could be devised. The Rapture leaves dead bodies behind... Jesus "harvests" our souls. Flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven. So HOW God does that might not comport with what you think is going to happen. The sickle Jesus wields is not the sickle the Angel coming out of the Temple of God wields which adds to God's winepress of Wrath.

[Tevye]

Jesus is reigning now

So true!

"Jesus came and said to them,
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me..."