Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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Seeker wrote:Does anyone have a pre-trib timeline that they would care to post in this thread to compare to scripture. I was just going to grab one off the net somewhere but thought maybe someone here would like to offer and defend their pre-trib timeline. I am going to use this thread to point out the scripture errors associated with pre-trib.
Thanks,
Seeker
So then you are looking for someone to defend someone else's timeline?
If you want to start a Pre-Trib debate, perhaps resurrect one of the many threads already here, and find something in one of them to dispute? And see if you have any takers?
2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
mark s wrote:So then you are looking for someone to defend someone else's timeline?
If you want to start a Pre-Trib debate, perhaps resurrect one of the many threads already here, and find something in one of them to dispute? And see if you have any takers?
You might find some interesting timelines drawn up by Clarence Larkin. You will probably disagree with him.
Here's one:
http://www.ebccnet.com/albums/Clarence- ... rge_II.jpg
Love in Christ,
Mark
Douggg wrote: And maybe I am missing something, but the most important event is not shown, that is Jesus LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS returning back to earth descending to the mt of Olives.
Your presupposition here is that there is only a single time that the dead are raised. This comes from blending the Old Covenant faithful with the New Covenant born again.
Daniel was told that he would stand in his allotment on the last day, ie, of the days having been prophesied.
Daniel 12:11-13
(11) And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
(12) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.
(13) But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."
So this is when the OT faithful are resurrected, apparently. I think we agree here.
1Thes 4:17 are the dead "in Christ", that is, those born again. Daniel, even though justified, was not born again (see 2 Cor 5 for the definition of those "in Christ", specifically, a new creature).
Therefore, Daniel is not the "dead in Christ", since he had not been born again, something that only happened after Christ's resurrection.
mark s wrote:1Thes 4:17 are the dead "in Christ", that is, those born again. Daniel, even though justified, was not born again (see 2 Cor 5 for the definition of those "in Christ", specifically, a new creature).
Therefore, Daniel is not the "dead in Christ", since he had not been born again, something that only happened after Christ's resurrection.
Here is where we see the first resurrection in scripture. Part of this group refused the MOB so this resurrection is after the AC begins his reign. Seems pretty straight forward that in order for the dead in Christ to rise before we who are alive and remain we would have to see a resurrection. Anyway Paul tells us that the dead in Christ rise first before those left and alive so from the pre-trib perspective where is the resurrection that is part of the rapture because I see the first resurrection here in Rev 20:4 after they refused the MOB. So which resurrection is the pre-trib resurrection in scripture?
Seeker wrote:Hi Mark,Your presupposition here is that there is only a single time that the dead are raised. This comes from blending the Old Covenant faithful with the New Covenant born again.
Daniel was told that he would stand in his allotment on the last day, ie, of the days having been prophesied.
Daniel 12:11-13
(11) And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days.
(12) Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.
(13) But go your way till the end. And you shall rest and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."
So this is when the OT faithful are resurrected, apparently. I think we agree here.
1Thes 4:17 are the dead "in Christ", that is, those born again. Daniel, even though justified, was not born again (see 2 Cor 5 for the definition of those "in Christ", specifically, a new creature).
Therefore, Daniel is not the "dead in Christ", since he had not been born again, something that only happened after Christ's resurrection.
So where is the resurrection of the dead in Christ shown in scripture? I am trying to find the resurrection that precedes the rapture in scripture. So you are saying that it is not the same resurrection that we see in Dan 12? Where does the pre-trib resurrection occur in scripture?
Peace,
Seeker
shorttribber wrote:mark s wrote:1Thes 4:17 are the dead "in Christ", that is, those born again. Daniel, even though justified, was not born again (see 2 Cor 5 for the definition of those "in Christ", specifically, a new creature).
Therefore, Daniel is not the "dead in Christ", since he had not been born again, something that only happened after Christ's resurrection.
Hi Mark,
We, by faith are "in Christ". Daniel was FAITHFUL to God by FAITH, the same FAITH as Abraham had who looked for a city who's builder and maker was God. Abraham not yet having SEEN, just as Daniel BELEIVED God and it was accounted unto them as righteousness.........................Abraham and Daniel are IN Christ NOW just as they were IN Christ BEFORE Christ BY FAITH before Christ became flesh.
Gal. 3:
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to........... seeds, as of many; but as of one............., And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed.......... before of God .......IN....... Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
IMO
The thing is, Daniel was not regenerated, something that only happened after Jesus' resurrection.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Eze 2:1 And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee.
Eze 2:2 And the spirit entered into me when he spake unto me, and set me upon my feet, that I heard him that spake unto me.
Eze 3:24 Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house.
You have asserted that Abraham and Daniel should be considered "in Christ", presumably the same way that we are "in Christ" today. Please show Scripture that teaches this to us.
The Orange Mailman wrote:Mark S. writesYou have asserted that Abraham and Daniel should be considered "in Christ", presumably the same way that we are "in Christ" today. Please show Scripture that teaches this to us.
Hebrews 11:39 And all these (the previous context is OT saints specifically naming Abraham) though commended through their faith
did not receive what was promised (one of the promises being a better resurrection, see Hebrews 11:35)
40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
It seems quite clear that the writer to the Hebrews put both in one category. He also stated that both would be made perfect together. Chapter 12 continues with "since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses", showing that those in the past that testified and continue to testify through their testimony in the written Word now encompass us who continue to run this race. There is absolutely no basis in scripture for separating OT saints from church saints. The ot prophecy of the dead being raised in Isaiah 25:8 is exactly what Paul quote will be fulfilled when the church is raised as he writes in I Cor. 15:51-55.
Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
The Orange Mailman wrote:But Mark, the burden of proof rests on you to come up with such a narrow definition which includes only the terms "born again" and "in Christ". To the contrary of what you are trying to assert, the scriptures include us in with them. Here is an example and application of how the apostles used the term born again.
I Peter 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,
You try to separate the term "born again" from terms like inheritance, faith, and resurrection, but it can't be done.
Peter continues:
20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
So let us look at how God has structured those that have been born again with others.
2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame." 7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,"8 and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense."They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
These old testament scriptures show that all who put their trust in this cornerstone (even those to whom the prophecy was given) are a part of this spiritual house. Those that believed in the OT are a part of it, and those of us in the here and now are a part of it. The passage continues.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
This passage is a direct parallel to Paul's declaration in Ephesians. The people who were far off, now brought near. The building of a spiritual house. It's all here and it's built upon the prophets of old who are a part of this same structure.
Ephesians 2:17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
You can try to separate one category of God's people from another, but scriptures bears out that they are united. Adam, Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, none of these were even under the Mosaic Covenant. Abraham saw Christ's day and was glad.
Hi Seeker,
The resurrection of the "dead in Christ" is shown in 1 Thess 4.
Daniel was not "a new creation", therefore, he was not "in Christ" (as the Bible uses these terms), therefore, he is not included in the group named in 1 Thess 4.
Hebrews 11:1-2
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
Hebrews 11:13-16
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
Hebrews 11:39-40
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
Romans 5:18-21
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:10
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Ephesians 4:8-10
8 Therefore it says,
When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!”
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Revelation 20:4
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Seeker wrote:Hi Mark,Hi Seeker,
The resurrection of the "dead in Christ" is shown in 1 Thess 4.
Daniel was not "a new creation", therefore, he was not "in Christ" (as the Bible uses these terms), therefore, he is not included in the group named in 1 Thess 4.
So you are saying that the resurrection that occurs prior to the rapture is not shown in any other place in scripture.
Not sure what this means, "see half of it".How can you possibly say where the rapture is or isn't if you can just see half of it?
There has to be at least a second witness in scripture of the pre-trib resurrection or you have based a complete theory on nothing but one verse in scripture.
That leaves your theory without any supporting proof.
I'll bet I can find a resurrection near what you call the rapture. So where is the pre-trib rapture in scripture (besides 1Th 4) I know it is there I want supporting scripture so where else is the rapture shown in scripture?
Seeker wrote:Easy to see why the pre-trib threads go crazy...lol. Could we all just back up and focus on the rapture so that we can step through the timeline as the topic of the thread suggests. Let's just keep it basic in this thread please. If you all want to have the same old arguments please start a new thread I would like to try to keep this thread on the topic of the pre-trib timeline and we haven't even finished step one of the timeline and everyone is dragging this thread off course. Please continue in a different thread so we can keep this one on topic.
Thanks,
Seeker
Ok thx. Anyone else have any other scripture besides 1Th 4 that shows the pre-trib resurrection or does anyone have any other scripture that shows the pre-trib rapture? Surely there is at least one other verse that supports the pre-trib resurrection and rapture. I couldn't imagine supporting a theory that doesn't even have one supporting verse for its main concept.
Sorry must have missed it could you post the verses again that show the event called the pre-trib rapture or the pre-trib resurrection. Just looking for straight scripture that shows the rapture or resurrection. You can post it in the reply and we will start from there ok?
Nor can you point to "straight scripture" that shows it happens anywhere else along whatever timeline you happen to believe. I would like to see straight scripture that supports it happening at the end of the tribulation,
Seeker wrote:Hi slick,
Thanks but pre-wrath has just as many errors as pre-trib so all that link will do is cause confusion. See my pre-wrath timeline thread to view the scripture errors associated with pre-wrath.
Peace,
Seeker
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Here we see the dead in Christ raised on the "last day". Since they are raised it is a resurrection. Since they believed in Jesus and are dead they are the dead in Christ just as described in the rapture. The dead in Christ rise first on the "last day". Does the last day describe the beginning or end of the tribulation?
John 7:37
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
Acts 2:16-17
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
James 5:3
3 Your gold and your silver have rusted; and their rust will be a witness against you and will consume your flesh like fire. It is in the last days that you have stored up your treasure!
pre-wrath has just as many errors as pre-trib so all that link will do is cause confusion
Hello Seeker,
in my personal opinion I believe all pre-occurent theories are filled with many flaws.....I think that's part of the intent to be excited and anticipate the return of our king and savior JESUS CHRIST!
I studied directly under Robert VanKampen, Charles Cooper, Roger Best, Marvin Rosenthal, ETC.... I counted them and still do as Great friends and true to the faith and being great students and teachers in the word of GOD....But I no longer hold to their classic form of Pre-Wrath....
slick wrote:We so often, as I was guilty of doing,muddy the clear picture of JESUS' triumphant return by attempting to string together events, timelines and scenarios using any number of Hermeneutic practices or personal convictions that until the occurrence itself I dont believe anyone including myself has the "TIMELINE" or "EVENT" correct.
shorttribber wrote:Now you and I are on the same ........... "TIMELINE" Of that wonderful ......... "EVENT"
slick wrote:Hello Seeker,pre-wrath has just as many errors as pre-trib so all that link will do is cause confusion
One thing I forgot to mention, Is that as I have argued and debated this issue for some 30 years on both sides of the Pre-trib fence. one thing that I have learned is this.If we get so caught up into the fantasy that We Have it right...and the other camps dont, we fail to recognize that we can learn and gain valuable understanding even from those who dont agree with our beliefs entirely. Assuming of course we have the common ground of JESUS.
GOD-BLESS,
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!
Clarence
Hi Seeker,
That is the question isn't it? What is the "last day" describing? Is it the last day of a particular era, dispensation, day of the Lord, or the last day for each of those resurrected at their particular resurrection event? Or something else entirely?
It's interesting that most of these references to the resurrection and the last day fall in chapter 6 of John's gospel, there is also one in chapter 11 and one in 12. In the passage that follows just after these references to the last day in chapter 6 we have John recording this for us:
John 7:37
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
Jesus had gone up to the feast of booths during the middle of the feast and here John records for us "the last day" showing that it was the great day of the feast. This day is known as "the great salvation" or in Hebrew "hoshana rabbah" if and how this correlates is up for grabs. But perhaps it is symbolic of the resurrection/last day?
Also Peter in his sermon on the feast of Pentecost says the following quoting the Old testament: he was demonstrating to the crowds that this passage was being fulfilled. Thus he is showing that the era he lived in was considered "the last days"
Acts 2:16-17
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
Here again in Hebrews we see the author calling his era "the last days".
So if the days following Christ's resurrection are considered by the New Testament writers to be "last days" then which last day does the resurrection happen? If you really want to say it is the last day of last days, then that would have to be the final resurrection event that occurs at the end of the Millennium, the white throne judgment.
It is not rocket science though, it is very clear from the plain reading of the Revelation written by John who is the one who wrote concerning the "last day" resurrection that there is more than one resurrection event.
These are three separate resurrection events. Those multitudes in chapter 7 are not the same group as the martyrs of Rev 20 who cannot be part of the same group in chapter 7. For the following reason as I have already said- John describes the group in chapter 20 as martyrs, those who have died [u]by beheading or because they did not take the mark of the beast or worship him. So unless all the dead in Christ who have ever lived meet one of those criteria it must be a different group. We know it cannot be the case because many who are the dead in Christ today have died natural deaths and have not had to resist the beast or his mark, who is a specific entity that exists only during the 70th week.
So the multitudes of Rev 7 must arrive in the heavenly tabernacle at some other time other than when the tribulation martyrs arrive, they do not arrive together. If indeed they make up the dead in Christ and the raptured saints.
According to your logic then the only ones that live and reign with Christ during the 1,000 years would be the tribulation martyrs as they were the only ones in the "first" resurrection. Blessed and Holy are those who have part in the first resurrection, they shall reign with Him 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them.And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
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