Pre-wrath timeline

by **MarkT** on Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:09 pm

Seeker wrote:2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Peter tells us that Jesus arrives as a thief in the night in which the heavens pass away, the elements melt, and the earth is burned up. Pre-wrath says the earth isn't burned up upon the arrival of Jesus. Pre-wrath only really matches one scripture and it is misinterpreted...lol.

And Paul said that the Day of the Lord would not catch us unaware, that it would not come upon us like a thief in the night.

So from what perspective is Peter writing? 2Pe 3 is not a detailed account meant to explain the end-times; it is not a major linear narrative of end-time prophecy. 2Pe 3 is a call to faithful to be faithful because God will destroy the wicked and by corollary, He will destroy them with the wicked if they are not faithful.

2Pe 3:10 is an observer-true statement for the earth-bound. It does describe the Wrath aspect of the Day of the Lord with its fire, blood, and smoke which will burn up a third of the world.

In the broader context of verses 12 and 13, nothing in this world is so important that it takes precedence before faith because ULTIMATELY everything is going to be destroyed.

2Pe 3:12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Peter is looking to the Day of the Lord and hopes to speed its coming. While that day brings destruction, he says we still have the promise of the New Heavens and New Earth which is later explained in Revelation chapter 21.

by **MarkT** on Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:21 pm

Seeker wrote: 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

That day cannot overtake them if they are not there the day the sudden destruction arrives. Both groups together at the removal of the tares.

No, it literally doesn’t say what you’re saying it says.

1Th 5 doesn’t say we endure the Wrath of God until the bitter end of the one ‘seven!’

1Th 5 doesn’t say we are only taken up with the tares!

In fact, in what is a linear narrative of the end-times that Paul had to write because the Thessalonians erroneously thought the Day of the Lord had passed them by and left to suffer God’s Wrath – in 2Th 2:1-8 Paul explicitly links Jesus’ coming with our gathering up and then He goes after the Man of Lawlessness who is doomed for destruction!

Seeker wrote:The saints shouldn't be there according to pre-wrath. Pre-wrath fails on every examination compared with scripture. So Mark instead of narratives and vague timelines you may have conceived why not try and just read the words of scripture. None of them support pre-wrath it is all a contrived theory based on one big misinterpretation of scripture.

Well 1Th 5 doesn’t say what you say it says so I’d have to take your admonishment and hold up a mirror for you to take your own advice.

You have an axe to grind with Pre-Wrath and you have a lot of complaints which I don’t find grounded at all. I am jazzed by what an analysis of the Sequence-of-Events has shown me because I find that like what Paul says in 1Th 5:9 – we are not appointed to Wrath, but are saved before it comes – but I am jazzed by the total consistency which supports a holistic integration of every major and minor linear narrative of the end-times into a single timeline.

Placing the Rapture where I naturally found it as a result of the analysis lead to my discovery that I am of the Pre-Wrath school of eschatology. It is the natural outcome of my analysis and not a prior conclusion from which I then attempt to manipulate the Bible around to a preset eschatological notion. In fact, I think this basis for looking at the Rapture is so strong: all I have to do is argue from the basis of the Bible.

Your argument is often founded upon your eschatological position which is prejudiced because you will adhere to it despite evidence to the contraray.

by **MarkT** on Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:31 pm

Seeker wrote: Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Can you show me how pre-wrath fits what Luke says?

Absolutely. Rescue then Wrath. That is the example of Lot and Noah.

That is what happens in the Seal/Scroll chronology of Rev 4-11.

- The sixth Seal Rapture Harvest is brought into the barn
- The seventh Seal opens the Scroll
- The first Trumpet burns a third of the world
- All of that happens on the two-day Day of the Lord.

In the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ Rev 13-16:

- The midpoint abomination is a talking image
- Two laws which make the Great Tribulation nearly wipe out the Elect
- The Harvest comes
- God’s Wrath follows with the Angel coming out of the Temple.

by **MarkT** on Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:44 pm

Seeker wrote:Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Or here in Matthew 24. The return of the Jesus will be just as the days of Noah. They knew not until the flood came and took them all away. Who was taken here sinners or saints? Jesus says He will take the sinners away when He arrives. Pre-wrath says He will take the saints when He arrives.

Boy, are you argumentative.

The word ‘taken’ as it is used for the wicked of Noah’s time is airo. You do a great disservice to the language by twisting that word around to usage of the word taken in verse 40! That word is paralambano and it means to “receive your inheritance.” That is the Greek word that is what is used when one “receives” Christ into their heart in the New Testament.

airo is a physical removal. paralambano is to be taken to Heaven for what is promised us.

Noah was rescued before the flood came. God made a provision for him. God saved him from the coming Wrath which would destroy the wicked in his day.

In a manner of speaking, Noah was lifted up off the earth by the buoyancy of the Ark which God had instructed him to make.

However, not to make too much of the movement, the principle here is that God rescued Noah and He did not suffer God’s Wrath.

Pre-Wrath does not say Jesus will take the Elect with Him when He arrives. Jesus, Paul and John say it.

by **MarkT** on Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:01 pm

Seeker wrote:As you can see pre-wrath fails scripture over and over again. You have no counter argument to the timing of the 6th seal. It can be clearly shown to occur at the end of the last 7 years leaving no time left of the 7 years to fulfill the rest of scripture as pre-wrath demands. The only way all these scriptures fit together is under the post-wrath/post-trib scenarios. Post-wrath does not have the scriptural inconsistencies that are associated with pre-wrath. Honestly the pre-tribbers present a more sound theory than pre-wrath. Pre-wrath fails all scriptures when scrutinized with an open mind.

I have answered every criticism of yours.

Pre-Wrath does not fail Scripture. A Pre-Wrath eschatology as I have developed from an analysis of the Sequence-of-Events in end-time linear narratives around specific and unique events not only preserves the original order of each individual linear account, but the whole of all the major end-time narratives can be blended into a succinct and holistic single timeline which preserves the very principles taught in the Bible – that the Day of the Lord is unknown – that we are rescued before the coming Wrath and that this happens after the midpoint abomination and the shortened Great Tribulation but before the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.

I have a perfectly good sequence for the sixth Seal.

When you say “It can be clearly shown” I know that is a product of your conclusion and I know from what you have posted that your run the Seals, Trumpet Judgments, and Bowl Judgments concurrently and so upset not only the story-telling nature of the Seal/Scroll chronology, but invalidate John’s dictate that the Bowl Judgments – all of them – come last.

You have fitted everything together in a Post-Trib eschatology. You will not address the fatal criticisms classical Post-Trib eschatology has always had.

One of those inconsistencies is knowing when the Day of the Lord comes. You said it yourself: the 2,520th day. Jesus said that you’re wrong.

Pre-Trib eschatology is quite literally based until you press them to show you where the Rapture actually occurs in the Bible. They will get very figurative outside of 1Th 4:16-17 pointing to all sorts of figurative stand-ins. They will do everything to remove themselves from similar passages to 1Th 4:16-17 which depict the same coming on the clouds as being for them because they fear being in the one ‘seven’ which they erroneously label the “Tribulation Period.”

I don’t think you have an open mind at all about Pre-Wrath eschatology. I don’t think you’re a “seeker” at all on this point. I think you have quite made up your mind in one direction and I doubt you’ll ever change that.

I expect you to repeat arguments to bolster your case.

I will not be impressed.

We are at an impasse.

All I have done is answer your criticisms as many and varied as they were.

You have not destroyed Pre-Wrath, nor presented me with any unsolvable conundrum.

At this point, I can agree to disagree. It would be nice if you did the same, but then I think your motives are a little different than wanting to engage in open discourse. You are on a mission to discredit my eschatology and I don’t think you will think you have even failed despite all the answers I have given you and the others who might read this.

by **Seeker** on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:29 am

Hi Mark,

Hey I don't have a lot of time this morning so will just reply to the first point you make concerning Rev 14 and then get back later today and work through some of the rest of what you say. I had mentioned that Rev 16 shows Jesus saying He comes as a thief. I say the words mean exactly what they say He still is to arrive as a thief. You're explanation is quiet complex makes me wonder how you keep it all straight. But anyway let's look at what you say Rev 14 says and then compare to what Rev 14 actually says.

Seeker wrote:Jesus has not arrived yet.

But He did - in Revelation 14:14-16.

Once Jesus Comes on the cloud - He, like the 800 pound gorilla, can go anywhere He wants... and on the Day of the Lord's Wrath - He is in Israel too, and specifically in Jerusalem - and since I think Ezekiel 9 is about this time - I would say He is also in the Temple. (The 144,000 are like thieves too, climing in windows in the attack upon Jerusalem which starts the time of Jacob's Trouble.)

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Fear God for the hour of His judgment has come. See anyone raptured yet? No rapture yet but the hour of His judgment has come.

Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Now here we see it is announced that Babylon has fallen. See any rapture yet? Ok so when does Babylon fall?

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Here we see that Babylon is mentioned during the 7th vial. Babylon hasn't fallen yet at this point. The timing for the fall of Babylon can be found here in Rev 17.

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

One of the angels that had the seven vials describes the fall of Babylon in Rev 17-18. That connects Rev 17 back to Rev 16 where Babylon receiving wrath is mentioned. So we can know for sure that Babylon is destroyed during the vial judgments and is shown in detail in Rev 17-18. Rev 14:8 says Babylon has fallen. That gives us the timing for the story in Rev 14. Since we see that Babylon has already fallen in Rev 14:8 we know that Rev 17-18 has already taken place at this point in Rev 14.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

After we have seen the fall of Babylon(7th vial) we see the patience of the saints mentioned. According to pre-wrath there wouldn't be any saints after the fall of Babylon but here we see saints with patience after the fall of Babylon.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Blessed are the dead who die henceforth (after the fall of Babylon).

Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

And now we finally see the earth reaped. So you are correct that Jesus returns here in Rev 14 however you are incorrect as to the timing of that. It occurs after Babylon has fallen as we can see in Rev 14. I'll work through more of your posts later today.

Peace,
Seeker

by **MarkT** on Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:42 am

Seeker wrote:Blessed are the dead who die henceforth (after the fall of Babylon).

No, again, you're making a non sequitur here in my opinion.

In the context of the Harvest, once God gathers up the Elect who are still alive and are left upon the earth, the only way to be included in the First Resurrection is to be numbered among the fifth Seal Martyrs. I know of two who will hold this special honor and their deeds will be attributed to them (follow them): the Two Witnesses.

Now as Mark S (the moderator) said to you in the Pre-Trib timeline thread that you started so as to goad someone into argument with you; people look at the Bible differently - and because they do so: they come to different conclusions.

My conclusions fit perfectly within my view of Revelation.
Your conclusions fit perfectly within your view of Revelation.

I look at Revelation as being assembled in parts:

The Broad overview to the end: Rev 4-11 (exclusive) - The Seal/Scroll Chronology.
The parallel account to that of the one 'seven' Rev 13-16 (inclusive) - The Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ.
Set somewhat in parallel and advancing the timline into the future: Rev 19-22: The Finale

Now onto these major narratives are these as I see them:
The Churches: Rev 2-3
The sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses: Rev 11:1-13
The twin parallel accounts of Israel (1-6) and the Serpent (7-17): Rev 12

And finally I look at Rev chapters 17 & 18 as explanatory in nature.

Now when Mark S looks at the book of Revelation - he says he sees it as one long narrative.

This then forms the basis for his view, which is different than mine.

You can argue all day and you're not going to change someone else's conclusions based upon how they view the Bible. You're going to argue from the basis of your view (which I think is all wrong) where you have the Seals/Trumpet Judgments/Bowl Judgments all running concurrently to each other. Within your view, your conclusions are correct. I've even heard Post-Tribs try to explain how naming the last day isn't going against what Jesus said...

The real thing here is to find out how other people view the Bible, especially the book of Revelation which was not universally received in the second century. It is a very difficult book. I have been quite open about how I look at things in it and I have even explained how I discern the breaks in the book dividing it into parallel accounts by the change of scene and focus.

Once I present my ideas, the reader is free to assume them for a while and look at the Bible through my eyes and see what I am saying. That is having an open mind. They can then judge if the way I "divide the Word" or view a passage, or even define a term is within their understanding. From that point they are free to accept or reject what I am saying.

When you post a criticism, I had to find out how you viewed the Bible so I could see how our apparent conclusions clashed. The real point here is not that we have come to different conclusions, but that the very basis for our understandings are shaped by underlying foundational views, definitions, and beliefs.

You presented a whole list of criticisms as a challenge.
I met that challenge.

If you want to redouble your criticisms and level them again, all I have is what I already provided.

We're going to continue to argue incessantly and literally talk past one another.

Like you see Rev 14:13 attached to Rev 18:21. I don't.

I see Rev 14:13 preceding the sixth Seal Harvest of Rev 14:14-16 as coming years before the final one hour earth-changing earthquake of Rev 16:18 which so rocks the world that the great city of Babylon (NYC?) is destroyed. Again, 99% of the wicked are not going to live through the time of God's Wrath in the one 'seven.' Man will be a rarity upon the earth as Isaiah said.

Redoubling your argument by stating it again isn't going to change my mind.

Now if you want to talk about our underlying foundational views, we might not ever come to agreement, but at least we can expand our thinking to past what only we think and try to understand what someone else is thinking about the same subject. In this way, we become better educated on what others think, and we can understand how they got there. I can actually hone my arguments to pinpoint the nexus where our views diverge and get to the heart of the matter.

That still might not change anyone's mind... but at least we won't be going back and forth in 'is too - is not' fashion and we might actually have a discussion with formal arguments.

I will most likely be unable to respond for the next few days as I will be away from my computer and it's too hard to post here on the smart phone.

by **Ready1** on Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:10 am

Hi Mark T.

On this Post you need to edit it for the millions vs billions to make your argument better. :grin:

Not really. Revelation chapters 13-16 are a parallel account. This verse is not a parallel account. You are really trying to say the sixth Bowl Judgment runs concurrently to the sixth Trumpet’s second Woe.

On its face, that leaves the seventh Trumpet to come after the sixth Bowl. However, at the introduction of the Bowls, THEY are last. Your inversion of the Seals/Trumpets/and Bowls does not match Scripture.

Another way to show your error is logically:

The second Woe eliminates a third of mankind who are still left on the earth. That leaves two thirds of the surviving wicked.

But in Zechariah, only a third of the Jews remain, and they are matched by ten to one with the other nations…

13:8 In the whole land," declares the LORD, "two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it.

8:23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "

Seeing as there are only 15 million Jews today, with only 5 million surviving – that brings the total to 55 million. We’re fast approaching 7,000 million people in the world today. Accounting for the church as between a billion and a two billion (let’s say 1.5 billion) that leaves 5,500 million wicked out there. So 55 million is only 1 out of 100 or 1% of the unbelievers who are not taken up when Jesus comes. So 99% die.

At the second Woe, two-thirds remain… that’s a lot more than 1%.

It is only with the total desolations of the Bowl Judgments that man truly becomes a rarity as Isaiah wrote.

by **Seeker** on Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:21 am

Hi Mark,

In the context of the Harvest, once God gathers up the Elect who are still alive and are left upon the earth, the only way to be included in the First Resurrection is to be numbered among the fifth Seal Martyrs. I know of two who will hold this special honor and their deeds will be attributed to them (follow them): the Two Witnesses.

Yes and they die at the 6th trumpet so aren't raptured before then.

Now as Mark S (the moderator) said to you in the Pre-Trib timeline thread that you started so as to goad someone into argument with you; people look at the Bible differently - and because they do so: they come to different conclusions.

No I don't hide my intenetions in the least bit. Here is the opening to that thread.

Does anyone have a pre-trib timeline that they would care to post in this thread to compare to scripture. I was just going to grab one off the net somewhere but thought maybe someone here would like to offer and defend their pre-trib timeline. I am going to use this thread to point out the scripture errors associated with pre-trib.

And you entered this thread after I made this post.

Anyone else care to try to defend pre-wrath?

Peace,
Seeker

You jumped in after I asked that so I guessed you were here to try to defend pre-wrath. I was very clear as to my intentions you chose to enter this thread I didn't goad you you voluntarily posted and continue to do so after you have said you were done twice. Are you done so I can get back to responding what you have already written? I am going to step through everything you wrote concerning pre-wrath and point out all the inconsistencies compared to scriptures. If you continue to add posts that will obviously take much longer. I will recap Rev 14 here and then get back to responding to your first posts which I haven't responded to. All that I do is read the words exactly as they are written and believe they mean exactly what they say so to recap Rev 14 I will just post the scriptures and underline a few things. No interpretation but simply let the words speak for themselves. You can disagree but that doesn't change what the words actually say.

Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

I believe it happens exactly how it is written above.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Seeker** on Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:24 am

Hi Mark,

You say, ‘Peace’ but keep attacking with a knife.

A sword actually http://www.e-sword.net

The sixth Seal depicts the Day of the Lord’s sun/moon/star event. This celestial sign heralds the coming of the Day of the Lord. It is a complex series of opposites which starts with a foretold earthquake to shake things up so that only what is unshakeable – of God – remains. In the brightest part of day, the sun is darkened. As night progresses, the clouds which obscured the sun dissipate and the moon does not give its silvery light, but is as an eclipsed moon: blood red. The stars “fall,” but stars do not fall, but meteors do and this cosmic fireworks show happens as the night sky is scrolled back and the light of the Lord is revealed coming on the clouds of Heaven.

Because we can link the sun/moon/star event of the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:29 to the start of the sixth Seal – we can place the sixth Seal inside Daniel’s one ‘seven.’

Yes that is for the most part correct the 6th seal's cosmic signs are the same cosmic signs that we see in Matthew 24. I'll post the scripture for reference.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I agree with you that Matt 24:29 is the 6th seal. If you will notice we are told when the cosmic signs/6th seal begins. Immediately after the tribulation of those days spoken of in Matthew 24. We know exactly when that tribulation begins.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Daniel 9:27 tells us that the AOD occurs in the middle of the last 7 years at year 3.5.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The AC/horn makes war with the saints until the Ancient of days came (arrival of Jesus) and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. So once the tribulation that the AC starts begins it doesn't end until Jesus returns to stop it. We know He stops it because the kingdom is given to the saints and only Jesus could take it from the AC and give it to the saints. That gives us the end point. The question is how long of time is there between the AOD (yr 3.5) and the return of Jesus. Daniel 7 also gives us that information here.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The AC makes war with the saints for 3 1/2 years. We are given a precise period of time here, 3 1/2 years. Simple math tells us that if you add 3 1/2 years to the 3.5 year mark that makes 7 or day 2520 for the day when the AC stops making war with the saints. Immediately after he stops making war with the saints (tribulation) we see the cosmic signs/ 6th seal. The war ends at the very end of the last 7 years so that is when the cosmic signs occur. After the cosmic signs/ 6th seal we see Jesus. So that places the timing of the return of Jesus in Matthew 24 at the last day of the last 7 years.

Of course this proves pre-wrath to be a faulty theory so pre-wrathers must once again distort scripture to make it fit their theory and I see you have done the same thing here Mark.

So the Great Tribulation does NOT last for the rest of the one ‘seven.’ It is shortened. Jesus said so.

Have you ever read the verse that talks about "shortened" real carefully?

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What would happen if those days were not cut short? No flesh would be saved. Is there flesh saved? Yes the elect. Therefore the days as written are already shortened. If that were not the case the prophecy that Daniel gives about the exact timeframe of 3 1/2 years would not be true. The only way that the 3 1/2 years could be true is if that 3 1/2 years already represents the "shortened days". If that is indeed the true meaning here we should be able to verify that with supporting scripture.

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

As you can see in this parallel account of Matthew 24 it says that except that the Lord HAD shortened the days no flesh would be saved. He HATH shortened the days. These are both past tense in that it has already been done verifying that Daniel 7 is correct in the 3 1/2 year timeframe. The tribulation ends at the last day of the last 7 years and immediatley after that we see the cosmic signs/6th seal and then Jesus returning in the clouds. So again since the 6th seal occurs on day 2520 there is no time left of the last 7 years as pre-wrath requires to fulfill all the trumpets and vials. It would require that the last 7 years be at least 7 years 5 months for pre-wrath since the 5th trumpet lasts 5 months itself.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Seeker** on Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:42 am

Hi Mark,

Seeker wrote:
Again pre-wrath fails the test of scripture. The timing of the 6th seal is at the end of the last 7 years so there isn't any time left for your pre-wrath view of the trumpets and vials following the 6th seal.

My, my, my. You are so quick to pronounce Pre-Wrath dead.

However, that is based only on your assumption belied by the shortening of the Great Tribulation that the sixth Seal comes at the end of the one ‘seven.’

Since the foundation for the basis of your conclusion is in error, your conclusion is completely wiped out.

We don’t know WHEN the Day of the Lord will come. Like Rosh ha-Shanah, the unknown day, which includes the named Trumpet call of God: the Last Trumpet – the Day of the Lord cannot be known ahead of time until that Day comes. And when it comes it will be unmistakable.

Oddly enough, your “last day” 2,520th day of the one ‘seven’ goes against Jesus’ Words that no man knows the Day when He will come again. Post-Trib eschatology doesn’t have a good answer for this perpetual criticism.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The days are already shortened as written otherwise no flesh would be there to be saved. So your understanding of shortening does not match what is shown in scripture.

I said that the 6th seal occurs on day 2520 immediately after the 3 1/2 year tribulation ends. Jesus returns after that but we are not given how long after. We can know when the cosmic signs are though. They occur immediately after the 3 1/2 year tribulation which begins at the 3.5 year mark. That makes the ending of the tribulation on day 2520 and immediately after that we see the 6th seal. The timing of the 6th seal is set in stone. Jesus arrives at some unknown point in time after the cosmic signs/6th seal.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When they see these things come to pass they are to lift up their heads for their redemption draws near. The cosmic signs will be seen by all the sun goes dark. They will know then that the return of Christ is very near.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The cosmic signs/6th seal occur before the Lord returns. We are not told how long before though. But when we see the sun go dark we are to lift our heads because our redemption draws near. At the point when the sun goes dark we will know the return of Christ is near. But near is as close as the bible gets. Just as we know Jesus doesn't return until after the AC he also doesn't return until after the 6th seal which is after the tribulation which ends on day 2520.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Seeker** on Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:32 am

Hi Mark,

Oh, and you never answered the pull quote: the Bowl Judgments are last. It says so in the Bible. So they do not run concurrently to the Trumpet Judgments either – nor with the Seals – which you would have the Bible say.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

But after the 6th vial we see Jesus telling them He comes as a thief and Blessed are those that watch for Him. Where do we also see Jesus arrive as a thief?

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Jesus also arrives as a thief here. Of the times and seasons they have no need for Paul to write to them for they know that Jesus will arrive as a thief in the night and sudden destruction falls upon the sinners. When are the sinners destroyed? At Armageddon which is right here in scripture.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Notice that we see Jesus arriving as a thief just before Armageddon matching the scripture shown in 1Th 4-5. Jesus arrives sometime after the 6th vial as we see clearly in Rev 16:15. So in a sense you are correct the vials are last you just have the arrival of Jesus in the wrong place in your description. We see Him arriving there and we see Jesus arriving here.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

And we see Jesus arriving here.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

They all three have Jesus arriving after the 6th of each. Remember that the 6th seal occurs 3 1/2 years after the middle of the last 7 years. All three of these accounts of Jesus occur at the end of the last 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker

by **MarkT** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:01 am

I'm going to bypass some of your argumentative little points which are the pinpricks of your knife attacks. I am really not interested in defeating you as you are in destroying Pre-Wrath eschatology, nor am I interested in trying to go point by point on your conclusions..

I think it is quite telling that you don't respond in a civil manner to the central point I identified which separates us: how we look at the Bible. That point is quite evident in the section of Rev 14 you pull here to try to prove that God's Judgement comes before the Harvest - which is a conclusion you make rather than something the Bible says!

Seeker wrote:Hi Mark,
I will recap Rev 14 here and then get back to responding to your first posts which I haven't responded to. All that I do is read the words exactly as they are written and believe they mean exactly what they say so to recap Rev 14 I will just post the scriptures and underline a few things. No interpretation but simply let the words speak for themselves. You can disagree but that doesn't change what the words actually say.

[color=#800040]Rev 14:7 for the hour of his judgment is come:
Rev 14:8 Babylon is fallen, is fallen,

I believe it happens exactly how it is written above.

What you believe is based on your understanding of the text.

Given that you read the King James Version, and don't go into the underlying Greek, I could say in an argumentative tone like you do with your knife attack that "So your understanding of "Is come," "is fallen," (like you do to me with 'shortening') does not match what is shown in scripture."

I will next post a paper that is part of my book, which I ought to finish. I'd like to thank you for sharpening my arguments on the 3 Angels; I added to this paper to specifically address you misunderstanding of what the Angels are saying.

by **MarkT** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:06 am

3 Angels

The three Angels are important in God’s Plan of Salvation/Redemption. They cover the earth and make three pronouncements: 1. the Gospel message yet extending mercy to the guilty for a last chance plea agreement, 2. absent that, the determination of guilt, and 3. the sentencing. God the Father is the Judge of all. In Zechariah 3, the removal of sin from Jesus takes place in a Court setting. In Daniel 7, the prophet relates specifically that God’s Court sits. God sets the rules for witnesses, requiring two or more to set a matter – a legal ruling. In the legal realm, the Angels act as God’s voice, telling the guilty that they have been judged. The pronouncements of the three Angels therefore cover the legal necessities of God the Father as Judge of the world.

The Angels do not tell another story within John’s story of this parallel account within the book of Revelation. John describes what the Angels say. While the Angels pronounce certain facts, in fact, because of the nature of the verb tense in the Greek, the events they describe are ‘summary occurrences’ and as such, can be past, present or future. Once God pronounces sentence, that end result is absolutely certain; nothing can change it. Therefore, while Babylon the Great (megas) has fallen – its “fall” does not happen until later as specifically delineated in the parallel account of the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ in Revelation chapters 13-16.

The pronouncements of the Angels also give reason for other aspects of the end-times from parallel and multiple accounts. It is their pronouncement of God’s Judgment that allows the wicked people who hide underground that God is indeed coming for them. The wicked people’s statement in the sixth Seal that God’s Wrath is not a statement of action being taken upon them: it is only their faulty conclusion based on their own self-interest. They don’t care about anyone but themselves and their understanding of God’s plan is not only severely limited, it is extremely faulty as well; they have no understanding.

In regards to multiple accounts, Jesus gives us the Great Commission in the Olivet Discourse:

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Jesus also sets its fulfillment as a precursor for the ‘end’ of the ‘age:’

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

This establishes a sequence-of-events between this event and the end which is not defined as the total end (as in the one ‘seven’), but an end of an era or time.

The Church cannot fulfill this prophecy, because the Church cannot completely fulfill the Great Commission. Although caring attempts certainly have been made by various Christians and Christian organizations, an Angel actually fulfills what the Church cannot possibly perform. This is not the fault of the Church; it is simply impossible for any human effort to completely reach everyone who has yet and still needs to hear the Gospel message.

Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth ― to every nation, tribe, language and people.

He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

Notice in this parallel account of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation chapters 13 through 16 that the fulfillment comes after the Great Tribulation described in Revelation chapter 13, but right before the Harvest in the parallel account of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation chapter 14. The timing is critical because people are constantly being born. Past efforts neglect new souls who were born after those campaigns. It is literally impossible for man to satisfy the Great Commission, which lessens not Jesus’ command that each Christian witness. However, only God has the ability to make a world-wide appeal in every language with divine power right before Jesus comes on the clouds so that no one can miss the Gospel message. This adds a second witness to the testimony of the Angel: it is a message from God. God will provide a way for all those He knows will come to Him even though they could never hear the Gospel message otherwise.

“The hour has come,” is, like the “fallen” of Babylon is in the aorist tense, indicative mood, and active voice. This is the nature of the pronouncement. The aorist tense has no equal in English. It describes a summary occurrence without regard to the time it takes to accomplish. Secondly, being in the indicative mood, the second Angel merely makes a pronouncement, a statement of fact of an actual occurrence. The truthfulness of the statement is from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Thirdly, the verb is in the active voice rather than be a passive description of something which has happened. What is not yet named is the actor who advances the action.

Although now stipulated explicitly, since this first Angel comes after the 144,000 but before the Harvest – the timing can be firmly pegged as happening on the Day of the Lord. Jesus states this fact in the Olivet Discourse. It is at the time of the Sun/moon/star event that He comes on the clouds, which is the same image presented with the Harvest. The first Angel acts as a last call to the world as God extends His Grace to all who would receive His gift of Salvation through His Son, Christ Jesus.

As the last day of the Church Age is rapidly approaching, this is the last chance any normal being will have to escape the coming Wrath. Many peoples outside of the Kingdom of the North will accept this miraculous pronouncement of the Gospel and believe. Those of the East, in the Orient, bereft of a Judeo-Christian foundation will find solace in the Words and will believe. Some in the South, controlled by pagan and satanic religions will likewise, having a heart for God, convert in a moment, and without having to weather persecution which would otherwise wilt their newfound joy.

Furthermore, while people are being saved at the very last moment, the wicked are hearing that their time is up. So while they hide in their lairs, they quake in fear knowing God’s Judgment is about to befall them. This explains why the wicked speak of God’s “wrath” as coming while they are hiding in their liars in the parallel account of the sixth Seal in that chronology: they heard the first Angel as well. However, they still reject the Gospel message.

A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

A cursory reading in English of verse 8 seems to produce a pronouncement by the second Angel that Babylon has fallen. Reading “fallen” as a past participle in English, leads to the conclusion that a simple act has occurred and Babylon is no more. However, the word “fallen” in the Greek describes a totally different circumstance.

First of all, like the ‘hour has come,’ the lexical word for “fallen” is in the aorist tense, indicative mood, and active voice. Again, this tense has no equal in English. It describes a summary occurrence without regard to the time it takes to accomplish. Secondly, and yet again, being in the indicative mood, the second Angel pronounces a statement of fact of an actual occurrence. And likewise thirdly, the verb is in the active voice, so rather than be a passive description of something which has come upon Babylon and ruined it, the second Angel is saying Babylon actively falls. Again, the actor who fells Babylon is not mentioned. The second Angel is not telling a story of how Babylon fell, or will fall; just that its accomplishment is a statement of fact: a pronouncement.

The fallen nature of Babylon may very well indicate the depths this form of man-worship has sunk. The depth unto which Babylon has fallen is described in the detailed second parallel account of Revelation 17-18:

"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.

For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

Note here that the Angel of Revelation 18 is not describing a city that has been wiped out, or fallen in physical ruin because of war. Rather, the fallen nature of Babylon comes as a list of her sins and generally depraved nature. Likewise the exhortation to God’s people is come out of Babylon and not to share in her sins or punishment because there will be a day for God’s Wrath to fall upon Babylon and she will be ruined. However, that day has not yet arrived. Like the first Angel, an impending sense of doom for the wicked naturally results from hearing that God’s Judgment is coming.

In the overall context of the book of Revelation, John is telling a story. The storytelling has not shifted to the second Angel; nor has the second Angel become an actor in the story to bring down Babylon megas. In the context of the Sequence-of-Events, at the midpoint abomination which causes ‘who is like God’ to arise, from Daniel 7:10: The court was seated, and the books were opened. God has pronounced Judgment and that decision is read to the guilty party before sentencing begins. The sentencing results in the removal of the wicked from God’s Kingdom first by their death, and then by their total elimination from existence in the Lake of Fire after the second Resurrection which occurs after the Millennium.

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,

he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

At this time, Jesus has not yet gathered the Elect from the face of the Earth. Up until Jesus comes, the Great Tribulation with its two terrible laws (worship the image(s) of the beast or die, and take the mark of the beast or don’t buy or sell) have been in effect. This condition is still belaboring God’s people. Like the example of the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25:1-13, God’s people must remain faithful until the last moment.

While the example of the five foolish virgins can be said to be a figurative parable to keep faith (oil), it can also aptly describe the great turmoil which will be foisted upon those who are Christians to maintain their vigilance in the face of real and physical discomfort and need. With supplies stretched or run out, it would be exceedingly foolish to run out, accept the mark of the beast so as to buy something one thinks they need and in so doing lose their eternal salvation by a demonstration that their faith could produce not even a seed of patient endurance.

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

Patient endurance, hupomeno, was required for the Church during the first half of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation 13:10. Now, at the end of the Church age, it is still required until the Rapture actually happens for those who are alive and are left. As Jesus said of hupomeno during the end-times in Luke 21:19:

By standing firm you will gain life.

This “standing firm” (hupomeno) is not a stubborn resistance, but another way of expressing the endurance Christians must exhibit from their faith. This display of endurance, as Paul informs the Thessalonians, “is inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ” (1Th 1:3). This is a faith that works.

In exercising patient endurance, there is no need to win the race ― that is, to get to the finish line of Jesus’ actual parousia. The overriding factor for the Christian is to keep the faith, not to stay alive. It matters little to scrape by and manage to see the blessed event only to be left behind and suffer God’s Wrath because that person accepted the mark of the beast or worshipped his image(s). Better to lose your life and keep it for eternity than that. The parables following the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:45-25:30) all speak of the need for the follower of Christ to remain faithful up to and including the time of the bridegroom’s return.

I hope the reader is edified by this study.

by **jgilberAZ** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:17 am

Not saying I hold to this view. But, I am studying it.

The system of interpretation of the book of Revelation which seems most satisfactory to me (though it is not without its difficulties) is that known as progressive parallelism, ably defended by William Hendriksen in More Than Conquerors, his commentary on Revelation.2 According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ’s first coming to the time of his second.

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/escha ... y-hoekema/

by **Seeker** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:49 am

Hi Mark,

Not a lot of time today been busy in other threads. But will answer this real quick before I continue later today on my responses to you.

I think it is quite telling that you don't respond in a civil manner to the central point I identified which separates us: how we look at the Bible. That point is quite evident in the section of Rev 14 you pull here to try to prove that God's Judgement comes before the Harvest - which is a conclusion you make rather than something the Bible says!

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Both grow together until the harvest and at the harvest gather the tares first and the wicked are severed from among the just. Sinners removed first in both cases. You really should slow down with your grand pronouncements there are two examples showing for certain the sinners and saints are harvested at the same time.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

The kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea. How many nets were cast into the sea? It says a net not two nets. The net was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind. They pulled the single net out of the water and sat down sorting the good into vessels but casting the bad away. Jesus interprets that for us here.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

As the net is cast into the sea so will it be at the end of the world. The angels will come forth and sever (remove) the wicked (sinners) from AMONG the just(saints). Both groups sinners and saints contained in the same net. If as pre-wrath contends the saints are removed first why does this parable say that the wicked are removed from AMONG the just. That would not be possible if the just were not there the day the wicked are removed.

Peace,
Seeker

by **MarkT** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:18 am

Already answered.

I am not inpressed with your argument and I've already stated an answer to your criticism.

Redoubling your argument by re-stating it doesn't change my answer or make your point of view any more correct.

by **MarkT** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:19 am

MarkT wrote:So the Great Tribulation does NOT last for the rest of the one ‘seven.’ It is shortened. Jesus said so.

Seeker wrote:Hi Mark,
Have you ever read the verse that talks about "shortened" real carefully?

No, I didn’t know about it! I’ve never studied the Olivet Discourse before!

What a pejorative thing to say… of course, I’ve read it carefully. What you don’t “get” is that we look at Scripture in wholly different ways.

You don’t want to talk about our real difference… you just want to set up a killing field so you can take on all comers with your attempt to discredit Pre-Wrath eschatology.

You haven’t achieved your goal, nor will you address the fundamental difference between us which leads our vastly different conclusions.

Seeker wrote:Hi Mark,
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What would happen if those days were not cut short? No flesh would be saved. Is there flesh saved? Yes the elect. Therefore the days as written are already shortened.

Therefore?

Therefore is a conclusion on your part. That is not what Scripture says.

Again, I have a real problem with how you look at the Bible. You want to take bits and snatches in the age-old conventional fashion and string them together however you want.

koloboō means to mutilate, cut short.

koloboō occurs in the NT in Mt 24:22 in the figurative sense “to cut short.” God has cut short the time of affliction, i.e., made it less than the oppressors purpose, so that the elect may be preserved from physical destruction (as indicated by the “all flesh” of Mk 13:20, the physical nature of the sufferings, and the presence of the elect at the parousia, Mk. 13:27). --Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 452.
Strong's Greek Lexicon: from a derivative of the base of <2849>; to dock, i.e. (figuratively) abridge:-shorten
Thayer's Greek Definitions:
1) to mutilate
2) in NT: to shorten, abridge, curtail

The Great Tribulation is cut short. It is abruptly cut short for the wicked by the unexpected arrival of the Day of the Lord which is unknown for the Christian, yet we will not be taken unaware but will be longing for it.

Within the context of the one ‘seven;’ the Great Tribulation starts at the midpoint abomination. Again, within the context of the one ‘seven,’ the Great Tribulation cannot be termed to be cut short if it lasts the whole of the rest of the one ‘seven.’

FACTS:

This time in the Olivet Discourse comes before the specific and unique sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord.
That specific and unique event is also described in the sixth Seal.
The gathering of the Elect in the Olivet Discourse results in the Great Multitude arriving in Heaven after the sixth Seal is broken.
An Elder says the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, again linking it to the Olivet Discourse.
The gathering of the Elect in the Olivet Discourse by the Son of Man on the clouds matches the description of the Harvest where the Son of Man sits on the clouds and reaps the earth.

The Rev 14:14-16 Harvest of the parallel account within Revelation chapters 13-16 happens after the midpoint abomination of Rev 13:14-15 and the reason for the Great Tribulation nearly wiping out the Elect in the Olivet Discourse is revealed in Rev 13:15-17 – there are two laws which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect: worship or die; and you can’t buy or sell.

So the Elect cannot travel freely, and living is typified by starvation and death from exposure.

If this time is not cut short, none of the Elect, which in Scripture as a term addressing people is always used as a term of address for the Church – so if the Great Tribulation is not cut short, in short order, no Christian could survive the onerous two laws of Rev 13:15-17.

The flesh that could not survive is the flesh that matters to God: the Elect. Jesus is addressing, like He does in all the other major discourses of Matthew (around which that book is written): the Church. Jesus is not talking to the Pharisees, nor the people at large, but four specific Disciples.

Jesus comes as thief to steal the most precious thing in all the world which is controlled by the strongman, Satan: US, the Church – the Elect.

While the wicked, having been warned of God’s Judgment of them and their impending sentence think Jesus is coming for them at the instance of His parousia on the Day of the Lord, first Jesus comes for us.

Some of us will not die; but will exchange our flesh and blood bodies for new, immortal and imperishable bodies. This explains Jesus’ cryptic reference answering in a literal, riddle fashion the Disciples’ question of where they (in observer-true point of view of an end-time disciple of Christ) go, and it explains why there are bodies flung everywhere with the silence of the seventh Seal on earth as expressed in OT Scripture about the Day of the Lord.

The days are NOT already shortened, but they will be. You never answered how long you can go without food, water, shelter, or any of the utilities we enjoy today. Just being without electricity for a few hours is a hardship some can’t take…

by **MarkT** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:43 am

Seeker wrote:Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

As you can see in this parallel account of Matthew 24 it says that except that the Lord HAD shortened the days no flesh would be saved. He HATH shortened the days. These are both past tense

NEGATIVE.

In Matthew 24:22, it is in the future tense, indicative mood.
In Mark 13:20, it is in the aorist tense, indicative mood.

The aorist tense has no equal in English. It is usually translated to our past tense. In the Greek, however, the aorist tense describes a summary occurrence without regard to the time it takes to accomplish. Secondly, being in the indicative mood, the author, Mark, merely makes a pronouncement, a statement of fact of an actual occurrence.

Since this is a Synoptic Gospel, and both verses are talking about the same point, the future nature of this occurrence in Matthew (which as a futurist, I view as not yet having happened, but sure to happen literally) is intact despite Mark's pronouncement that it will happen as a summary occurrence.

Your understanding from the King James Version does not match what Scripture records in the Greek.

by **MarkT** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:55 am

Seeker wrote:I said that the 6th seal occurs on day 2520 immediately after the 3 1/2 year tribulation ends. Jesus returns after that but we are not given how long after. We can know when the cosmic signs are though. They occur immediately after the 3 1/2 year tribulation which begins at the 3.5 year mark. That makes the ending of the tribulation on day 2520 and immediately after that we see the 6th seal. The timing of the 6th seal is set in stone. Jesus arrives at some unknown point in time after the cosmic signs/6th seal.

Here I am going on the offense, because you have just set some inconsistencies of your concurrent running of the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls.

First of all, the Great Tribulation is cut short: you take it all the way to the end of the one 'seven.'
Second of all, you try to escape naming the day by putting the Jesus' arrival on the Day of the Lord outside of the one 'seven.'
Third of all, you violate the completeness of the one 'seven' where all the desolations are poured out on the desolator.

It is how we view how Scirpture is structured which leads to each of us saying the other is inconsisent to Scripture.

The real argument is whether or not the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls run concurrently or sequentially.

You just want to argue how Pre-Wrath is wrong by your view. What you will not examine is the basis for your view.

by **MarkT** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:20 am

The time of oppression of the Saints in Daniel 7 is the same as the time of waging war on the Saints in Revelation 13:5-7.

In the linear narrative within the book of Revelation of chapters 13-16: the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ covering just the one 'seven,' this happens before the midpoint abomination of Rev 13:14-15.

Let's look at Daniel 7 - first is the initial vision:

Next is the general, broad overview explanation to Daniel’s inquiry telling him all four beasts will rise – future tense. This is important because the time of this vision in Daniel’s life has already seen the first Kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue pass:

Daniel repeats his inquiry about specifics from the vision repeating it a second time.

Again, this does not conflict with the vision. It is laid out in a linear order after the one standing there gives an broad, introductory summation as a way of explanation.

Then the 'one of those standing there' gives this full explanation:

From these three parallel arrays in Daniel 7, of the vision, his detailed inquiry and the one standing there’s detailed explanation, we can construct a single timeline:

This agrees with the Sequence-of-Events supporting a Pre-Wrath Rapture eschatology as given before on the previous page and this timeline can be woven in around specific and unique events which act as time markers for the one 'seven.'

by **MarkT** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:46 am

Previously, I gave this list for a Pre-Wrath timeline weaving in the Olivet Discourse to Daniel 9:27 and the sixth Seal of Rev 6-7. I then sequenced Rev 13-16 and combined that around the specific and unique events Jesus listed from before.

The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
- He wages war against the Saints.
- We are to endure patiently
- Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
- Two laws
- Great Tribulation
Day of the Lord
- Sun/moon/star event.
- Mustering the 144,000
- 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
- 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
- Martyr's deeds will be remembered.
- Gathering Elect/Harvest from the clouds
- Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
- Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
- Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
- First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
Seventh Trumpet
- First Bowl - Sores on Man
- Second Bowl - All sea to blood
- Third Bowl - All water to blood
- Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
- Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
- Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
- Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.
End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.

Onto this we have the previous list from Daniel 7 combining three linear sequences to the vision, which I will color green:

Rise of fourth Beast of a Nation with ten Kings (Council of Ministers)
Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation
He wages war and oppress the Saints for half of the one 'seven.'
Court of God is seated; books opened (Rev 4-8:1)
Little horn's power destroyed
Beast of a Nation destroyed
Beast of a Man thrown into Hell
First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods)
Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ
Saints rule the earth

Now showing the new combined linear account of Daniel 7 in green, I will integrate it into the Pre-Wrath timeline already established. Combined and/or new events will be colored green.

The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea” with ten Kings
Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation
Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
- He wages war against the Saints for half of the one 'seven.'
- We are to endure patiently
- Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
- Two laws
- Court of God is seated; books opened (Rev 4-8:1)
- Great Tribulation
Day of the Lord
- Sun/moon/star event.
- Mustering the 144,000
- 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
- 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
- Martyr's deeds will be remembered.
- Gathering Elect/Harvest from the clouds
- Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
- Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
- Little horn's power destroyed
- Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
- First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
Seventh Trumpet
- First Bowl - Sores on Man
- Second Bowl - All sea to blood
- Third Bowl - All water to blood
- Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
- Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
- Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
- Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.
  - Beast of a Nation destroyed
End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.
Beast of a Man thrown into Hell
First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods)
Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ
Saints rule the earth

Daniel is kept intact.

The time, times and half a time for oppression of the Saints is in the first half.

This is part of the rise of the anti-Christ.

Outright persecution and death happens in the shortened Great Tribulation following the two laws enacted with the midpoint abomination which make the Great Tribulation so terrible that if it were not abruptly cut short by the unexpected and unknowable arrival of the Day of the Lord - no of the flesh of the Elect would survive.

(Remember in the Olivet Discourse, the only flesh that is important is the Church's. God will eliminate 99% of the wicked tares by killing them. Their flesh is not important, but is put in the winepress of God's Wrath.)

by **MarkT** on Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:03 am

If this is going to be a thread about the Pre-Wrath timeline, then I ought to provide one.

The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea” with ten Kings
Little horn "hamstrings" three "Kings" to rise to power over the Beast of a Nation
Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
- He wages war against the Saints for half of the one 'seven.'
- We are to endure patiently
- Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
- Two laws
- Court of God is seated; books opened (Rev 4-8:1)
- Great Tribulation
Day of the Lord
- Sun/moon/star event.
- Mustering the 144,000
- 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
- 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
- Martyr's deeds will be remembered.
- Gathering Elect/Harvest from the clouds
- Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
- Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
- Little horn's power destroyed
- Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
- First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
Seventh Trumpet
- First Bowl - Sores on Man
- Second Bowl - All sea to blood
- Third Bowl - All water to blood
- Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
- Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
- Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
- Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.
  - Beast of a Nation destroyed
End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.
Beast of a Man thrown into Hell
First three beasts allowed to live a while (30/45 day periods)
Establishment of Millennium reign of Christ
Saints rule the earth

This is not an exhaustive list, but can be expanded with other linear narratives.

The important part here is that I can show a holistic harmony between the Olivet Discourse, Daniel 9:27, the Seal/Scroll chronology in Rev 4-11 (exclusive), the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ from Rev 13-16 (inclusive) and now the combined account of Daniel 7.

This view incorporates a sequential view of the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls.
This view incorporates approaching the book of Revelation around parallel accounts.
This view looks for parallel accounts whenever there is a change of scene and focus within one author's book.
This view identifies specific and unique events.

Within this view, discussion can be had as to the correctness of my integration of accounts as a lot of thinking and reasoning have to take place. This is the ultimate Mensa test for sequenced word-problems showing order of finish!

However, saying it is all wrong, as most do, without identifying the underlying foundation for our different conclusions is totally meaningless. I know this doesn't agree with other people's eschatology; however, why it doesn't agree cannot be stated just from within that person's viewpoint. What has to be discussed HOW we come to view things differently.

Otherwise the debate just denegrates into 'is too, is not' and that is not edifying.

I therefore give this timeline and subsequent ones as I blend in other linear narratives so the reader can understand not only how Pre-Wrath works as I understand it with my unique basis for analysis (the Sequence-of-Events) but I will also show my basis for my view point by enumerating the foundation of how I look at the Bible which leads me in this endeavor so you will understand any fundamental difference we might have and how I built up this listing.

by **Seeker** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:36 am

Hi Mark,

Well I am going to stop attempting to try and answer all the back posts because you just keep adding more making it impossible to answer your past arguments. Good luck in your offensive scripture argues against your position as will be very evident by the end of this discussion. So I guess I will jump in at your latest series of posts.

The Great Tribulation is cut short. It is abruptly cut short for the wicked by the unexpected arrival of the Day of the Lord which is unknown for the Christian, yet we will not be taken unaware but will be longing for it.

Are you familar with the interpretation portion of Daniel 7? It appears that you are not or you wouldn't make that claim that the tribulation is cut short. Daniel 7 shows us exactly how long the saints are persecuted in the tribulation. Let me back up a bit I was presuming you understood the interpretation portion of Daniel 7. Chapter 7 in the book of Daniel is composed of two sections. The first section is the actual vision that Daniel had and the last half is the intepretation for that vision that God gives us. So we don't have to try to guess what Daniel 7 says we are told exactly what it means by the Lord. Here is the dividing point.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

Everything above this verse is part of the vision and below this verse is the interpretation that God Himself sends for us. It means exactly what it says and nothing else because it is an interpretation directly from God after all.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Here in the vision we see the AC (little horn) pluck up 3 of the other horns. Daniel beheld till the thrones were cast down and the Ancient of days did sit. So Daniel watched until Jesus sat down. A fiery stream issued from Him, judgment was set, and the books were opened. So the vision that Daniel had extends all the way until Jesus returns. We can verify that in the interpretation portion.

Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Here we see the AC pluck up the 3 horns just as we saw in the vision section of Daniel 7. See that is the great thing about when God provides the intepretation. We don't have to add or take away a single word because we know this is an interpretation sent directly from the Lord. It means exactly what the words say in the interpretation and nothing else.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The same horn (AC) made war with the saints and prevailed against them UNTIL Jesus came, judgment was given to the saints. and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. This interpretation received from the Lord tells us that the AC makes war with the saints until Jesus returns and the saints possess the kingdom. We know exactly when this tribulation begins at the AOD (Matt 24:15). Now we know exactly when it ends. It ends when Jesus returns and after the war against the saints ends and the saints possess the kingdom. Jesus returns and takes the kingdom from the AC and then gives it to the saints. That is what ends the AC's war against the saints according to what God tells us the vision means. It is a simple matter to know when the AC is slain by Jesus.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Here is where we see Jesus defeat the AC as spoken of in Daniel 7. The AC makes war with the saints until Jesus returns and the saints possess the kingdom. The saints can't possess the kingdom until Jesus defeats the AC. Jesus doesn't defeat the AC until Armageddon. So the tribulation has to last until Armageddon. That can also be verified as we continue into the interpretation of the vision that the Lord has given us.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel watched until the beast (AC) was slain, his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Again we know that happens at Armageddon because the AC is alive until then. Now we see that part of the vision here in the interpretation that the Lord has given us.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The AC makes war with and prevails over the saints for 3 1/2 years, judgment sits (as in the vision) and they will take away his dominion and destroy it. The kingdom and the dominion is then given to the saints (saints possess kingdom). So the AC makes war against the saints until Jesus returns, judgment sits, and the time comes for the saints to possess the kingdom. That happens after the beast is slain and given to the fire and of course we know that occurs at Armageddon. There is no cutting short anywhere in this interpretation that God gives us for the war against the saints. It lasts for 3 1/2 years and begins at the AOD (year 3.5). Simple math 3.5 plus 3 1/2 equals 7. The AC makes war with the saints until the end of the last 7 years when the AC is slain and given to the fire. That also matches what we are told here in scripture.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Here again we see that the AC is destroyed upon the arrival of Jesus just as we see in Dan 7 and Rev 19. So your notion of a shortened tribulation against the saints just does not match what we are told in the interpretation that Daniel the prophet gives us. Personally I will go with what Daniel has to say over your version of events.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Seeker** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:41 am

Hi Mark,

The Great Tribulation is cut short. It is abruptly cut short for the wicked by the unexpected arrival of the Day of the Lord which is unknown for the Christian, yet we will not be taken unaware but will be longing for it.

So since we are aware and longing for it then it won't be abrupt to us? How could it be abrupt to us on the day the sinners are surprised by the Lord? That would mean the saints are here the day that the Lord takes the sinners.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Jay Ross** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:39 pm

Hello

It seems that this understanding is based on the convolutions of mans' mind and the theology that has been built line upon line, precept upon precept as spoken about with disgust in Isaiah 28. Your understanding of the "time, times and a half," IMHO is faulty as its duration is from the time of Daniel until the great throne judgement which is when the Saints who are judged to be righteous receive their inheritance as sons of the Living God.

Some clues can be found in the following passage: -

Luke 14:25-35: - 25 Now great multitudes accompanied him; and he turned and said to them, 26 "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build, and was not able to finish.' 31 Or what king, going to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an embassy and asks terms of peace. 33 So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

34 "Salt is good; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? 35 It is fit neither for the land nor for the dunghill; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

The next chapter also provides some clues: -

Luke 15: - 15:1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him. 2 And the Pharisees and the scribes murmured, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them."

3 So he told them this parable: 4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.' 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. 8 "Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost.' 10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

11 And he said, "There was a man who had two sons; 12 and the younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of property that falls to me.' And he divided his living between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took his journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in loose living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a great famine arose in that country, and he began to be in want. 15 So he went and joined himself to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would gladly have fed on the pods that the swine ate; and no one gave him anything. 17 But when he came to himself he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have bread enough and to spare, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me as one of your hired servants."' 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was yet at a distance, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' 22 But the father said to his servants, 'Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet; 23 and bring the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry; 24 for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to make merry.

25 "Now his elder son was in the field; and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants and asked what this meant. 27 And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fatted calf, because he has received him safe and sound.' 28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, 'Lo, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command; yet you never gave me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your living with harlots, you killed for him the fatted calf!' 31 And he said to him, 'Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to make merry and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.'"

When the Messiah comes to the earth, is the question that is begging the answer and our answer will be based on our understanding of who the Duke is in the following parable: -

Luke 19:11-27: - 11 As they heard these things, he proceeded to tell a parable, because he was near to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately. 12 He said therefore, "A nobleman went into a far country to receive a kingdom and then return. 13 Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten pounds, and said to them, 'Trade with these till I come.' 14 But his citizens hated him and sent an embassy after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.' 15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by trading. 16 The first came before him, saying, 'Lord, your pound has made ten pounds more.' 17 And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.' 18 And the second came, saying, 'Lord, your pound has made five pounds.' 19 And he said to him, 'And you are to be over five cities.' 20 Then another came, saying, 'Lord, here is your pound, which I kept laid away in a napkin; 21 for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man; you take up what you did not lay down, and reap what you did not sow.' 22 He said to him, 'I will condemn you out of your own mouth, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking up what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then did you not put my money into the bank, and at my coming I should have collected it with interest?' 24 And he said to those who stood by, 'Take the pound from him, and give it to him who has the ten pounds.' 25 (And they said to him, 'Lord, he has ten pounds!') 26 'I tell you, that to every one who has will more be given; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me.'"

For me my view is that the Duke is Satan because when he returns he surveys his “stocks” and then he immediately makes war against the Saints who rejected his claim of being their “king.”

How long was the duke away, well Rev 20 tells us that it will be for 1,000 years and since Satan has not "gone away" {be that he will be forcibly removed} just yet and it is a near future event, the time span from Daniel's time until this event will be around three and a half ages or days of the Lord.

Luke tells us in chapter 14 that when the Nation of Israel returns, that they will see Him a far off leading an army and that they will seek His terms of peace and many of them will accept the conveyed terms of peace, a covenant that God promised he would make with the nation of Israel when they turned again to Him and began walking once more with Him in communion and fellowship with Him.

Perhaps we need to go back to the Gospels and read them again to see if there are any sign post markers contained within the words of Christ for us to consider.

:oops:

we would not want to miss any of those signs that have been given.

Shalom

Jay Ross

by **Tevye** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:47 pm

MarkT wrote:If this is going to be a thread about the Pre-Wrath timeline, then I ought to provide one.

Thank you for sharing it! :grin:

by **MarkT** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:51 pm

You're welcome Tevye.

Seeker wrote:Are you familar with the interpretation portion of Daniel 7? It appears that you are not or you wouldn't make that claim that the tribulation is cut short. Daniel 7 shows us exactly how long the saints are persecuted in the tribulation.

Oh thanks dad, I didn't understand it at all... boy, you are pejorative with what I'm familiar with or not.

No, the Saints are oppressed for the first half of the one 'seven.' That is backed up in Rev 13.

Then at the midpoint, outright persecution exists which would wipe out the Elect if it were not shortened.

I have given the definitions of "shortened," and your interpretation does not align with the Greek that Matthew uses.

The Great Tribulation, starting after the first half oppression of Daniel 7, and after the midpoint abomination which is omitted from that narrative vision/inquiry/explanation - shortened.

I don't know what part of "shortened" as it is in the Greek you don't understand, but its basic understanding seems to elude you in favor of your eschatology.

by **MarkT** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:56 pm

Seeker wrote:Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The same horn (AC) made war with the saints and prevailed against them UNTIL Jesus came, judgment was given to the saints. and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. This interpretation received from the Lord tells us that the AC makes war with the saints until Jesus returns and the saints possess the kingdom.

The basic Sequence-of-Events here is preserved in the Pre-Wrath timeline.

You make the assumption that v.22 happens all at once.

There is no time marker that says all of verse 22 happens all at once.

Indeed, for the first half AND the shortened Great Tribulation Satan does make war on the Saints.
Indeed, that stops when Jesus comes.
Then God rules for the Saints, and they will rule during the Millennium.

by **MarkT** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:02 pm

MarkT wrote:The Great Tribulation is cut short. It is abruptly cut short for the wicked by the unexpected arrival of the Day of the Lord which is unknown for the Christian, yet we will not be taken unaware but will be longing for it.

Seeker wrote:So since we are aware and longing for it then it won't be abrupt to us? How could it be abrupt to us on the day the sinners are surprised by the Lord? That would mean the saints are here the day that the Lord takes the sinners.

No, that would not mean that we are here for God's Wrath which "takes" the sinners. The wicked are not taken.

No, and I said it would be abruptly cut short because that is the way the Day of the Lord cuts short the Great Tribulation. I did not say it would be abrupt to us... for us, it will be a welcome Day no matter how it "comes" to us!

It will be abrupt because we won't know until it comes that it's here!
--Unlike your "last day" eschatology.

Nobody knows when the Day of the Lord is coming, however WE CAN KNOW when the time is ripe; Jesus said so.

by **MarkT** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:06 pm

Seeker wrote:2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Here again we see that the AC is destroyed upon the arrival of Jesus just as we see in Dan 7 and Rev 19. So your notion of a shortened tribulation against the saints just does not match what we are told in the interpretation that Daniel the prophet gives us. Personally I will go with what Daniel has to say over your version of events.

You're taking that verse out of context and without any study in the Greek.

When I get back to my computer, I'll provide my commentary on the Sequence-of-Events in 2Th 2:1-8.

The Great Tribulation is not part of Paul's linear narrative.
An omission in prophecy is NOT a commission of an error.
However, Paul's sequence-of-events agrees with a Pre-Wrath Rapture at some point after the midpoint.

Paul's linear narrative in 2Th 2 provides other important details not found in Revelation, Daniel or the Olivet Discourse.

by **MarkT** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:25 pm

Seeker wrote:The AC makes war with and prevails over the saints for 3 1/2 years, judgment sits (as in the vision) and they will take away his dominion and destroy it.

Right - but not all at once.

Seeker wrote:The kingdom and the dominion is then given to the saints (saints possess kingdom).

Right, overall, that is right. However, it takes time.

Seeker wrote: So the AC makes war against the saints until Jesus returns, judgment sits, and the time comes for the saints to possess the kingdom.

No, Judgment is prepared before the Harvest as evidenced by the 3 Angels.

Nor do the Saints possess the Kingdom as soon as Jesus appears. That is YOUR eschatology. That is not in the Bible.

However, they WILL possess the Kingdom as Jesus will have us rule in His stead.

Seeker wrote: That happens after the beast is slain and given to the fire and of course we know that occurs at Armageddon.

He is not slain at Armgeddon: read Revelation.

Seeker wrote: There is no cutting short anywhere in this interpretation that God gives us for the war against the saints.

An omission in a linear narrative does not invalidate an inclusion of an event in another linear narrative.

Jesus gives us the keystone in the Olivet Discourse linking FOUR specific and unique events.
The Great Tribulation is SHORTENED - as is to "dock" an animal's tail!

Seeker wrote: It lasts for 3 1/2 years and begins at the AOD (year 3.5). Simple math 3.5 plus 3 1/2 equals 7. The AC makes war with the saints until the end of the last 7 years when the AC is slain and given to the fire. That also matches what we are told here in scripture.

No. The three and a half years are the first half.
At the midpoint, when he cannot kill and ensnare the Jews, the anti-Christ turns his attention to us.
The Great Tribulation starts with two onerous laws enacted with the midpoint abomination.
Then, and only then, does the Great Tribulation start as defined by Jesus.
Jesus says that time is shortened or none of the ("Elect's") flesh (all that is important) would be saved.

We do not endure God's Wrath during the second half of the one 'seven' after the Day of the Lord.

Paul stipulates that as well.

by **MarkT** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:30 pm

Seeker wrote:Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel watched until the beast (AC) was slain, his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Again we know that happens at Armageddon because the AC is alive until then. Now we see that part of the vision here in the interpretation that the Lord has given us.

Wrong beast... it's the beast of a nation. In v. 12 the previous three beasts (nations) survive the destruction of the fourth which acts as the head animating the other three as its body parts - Rev 13:2.

Again, Scripture does not contradict Scripture; the anti-Christ is captured at Armageddon in Revelation 19-20.

by **MarkT** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:36 pm

Seeker wrote:Well I am going to stop attempting to try and answer all the back posts because you just keep adding more making it impossible to answer your past arguments. Good luck in your offensive scripture argues against your position as will be very evident by the end of this discussion.

I think you ought to answer the criticisms I levied at your eschatology. To not do so shows the weakness of your interpretation; it cannot stand scrutiny.

I'd say Scripture agrees with Pre-Wrath eschatology because I don't look at the Bible the way you do.

I'd say Scripture argues against your position as I have made evident already but you cannot answer.

So we can go back and forth in 'is too,' 'is not,' is too,' is not' fashion...

OR we can talk about our fundamental diffences...

I'm going to find something to eat in Mormon City and watch the second half of the football game. Later. I'll be home Tuesday night, and my ability to post is rather limited while out on a trip.

by **The Orange Mailman** on Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:06 pm

Hello Seeker-

One of the details that you overlook is the continuity of Revelation 12-16 as a whole. Revelation 13 documents the rise of the beast from the sea and the granting of authority for a total of 42 months, Revelation 13:5. This ensuing 42 months will be comprised of several things. First, it will include the persecution of the saints. Second, it will include the complete destruction of the beast. After that 42 months is finished, we can fully expect for the beast to have met his demise at the hands of the King of kings and LORD of lords. His name is Jesus.

Revelation 13 describes the war on saints and is equivalent with the great tribulation. The deception by the false prophet that the people of the earth should build an image of the beast (Revelation 13:14) can be equated in some way to the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet and Jesus, Daniel 9:27, Matthew 24:15. This marks the great tribulation against the Christians, the church, since they are the ones who will find strength to not love their lives unto death, Revelation 12:11. Later, we see that 144,000 have been redeemed from among men, Revelation 14:1-5. There is no reason to believe that they are anywhere but on the earth. Spiritual symbols are used, but these correlate with simple interpretations, for instance Jesus is the Lamb.

After the agreement by the Holy Spirit that those which die in the LORD are blessed because they will rest from their labors, Revelation 14:13, there is a description of the Son of Man coming on the clouds, Revelation 14:14-16. He performs the therismos upon the earth. This is the gathering of the souls of mankind into the kingdom of God. Each other instance in the NT uses the term in this way, see Matthew 9:37-38, Mark 4:29, Luke 10:2, John 4:35, and of course, Matthew 13:30, 39. These souls will shortly be seen before the throne of God rejoicing and singing the song of Moses, Revelation 15:2-3. Proleptically speaking, they sing that the nations shall come and worship before the LORD. This is an announcement that the kingdom of God is about to appear physically. Yet before that occurs, the official destruction of the beast must occur, since Revelation 15:5-8 is given in the same vision. Immediately after the harvest, the angel throws what is left into the great winepress of God’s wrath, Revelation 14:17-20. This is a picture of what will occur shortly during the bowls, but is also a specific event that will occur just outside of Jerusalem. This is not to be confused with Armageddon since that occurs in a completely different location, contrast Revelation 14:20 with Revelation 16:16.

When the bowls begin to be poured out, the saints are now before the throne of God while the 144,000 and the beast remain here on the earth. The bowls one by one, show that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, see Revelation 16 the entire chapter. The first bowl is poured out, the sores appear, and time is given for those that follow the beast to repent. The second bowl is poured out, the water turns to blood, the life in the sea dies off, and time is given again for mankind to repent. The third bowl is poured out, the springs of water become blood, and the angel announces that now those in the kingdom of the beast only have water to drink. This is for some extended amount of time that transpires since those existing in the kingdom of the beast will have to try to survive without the natural springs of water. The fourth bowl is poured out, the heat scorches those upon the earth, time is given for them to repent, but here we have the added detail that even though time is given for them to repent, they do not repent. The fifth bowl is poured out and the kingdom of the beast is in darkness. They chew on their tongues because of the pain that they are enduring through some unspecified amount of time. They have time to curse God because of the pain they are experiencing. The sixth bowl is poured out and the armies of the earth are deceived into gathering together to Armageddon against an already returned Christ. This gathering of the armies of the earth will take a significant amount of time since we know they will have to cross the Euphrates River. In fact, the sixth bowl records the drying up of the river and then the armies are gathered after that. The seventh bowl is poured out and this signifies the destruction of the kingdoms of this world. The cities of the nations fall and Christ’s kingdom is established. Now the 42 months can be considered to be over, but there are further explanations in Revelation 17-19 of what has occurred that will be inserted back into the timeline that we have just had revealed to us.

In summary of my point thus far, the authority of the beast is limited to 42 months. The first portion will be uncontested tribulation against the saints. Then the LORD comes in power and glory. He then destroys the beast and his followers during the period of time that the bowls are poured out. We do not know the exact amount of time it will take for the bowls to be poured out. This view is called the PreWrath view and maintains the integrity of the scripture that no man knows the day or the hour that Christ returns. Someone who claims that the great tribulation is 1260 days long and that Christ returns on that last day has something to explain in relation to Matthew 24:36. The bowls are poured out after the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds and this constitutes the remaining portion of the last half of Daniel’s 70th week. The beast, his kingdom, and his followers are destroyed by the Son of God during the bowl judgments which are the wrath of God. The church is exempt from the wrath of God when the Day of the LORD comes as promised by I Thess. 4:13-5:11.

Your objection with this sequence is to quote over and over again Revelation 16:15. You insist that Christ is not back yet because it states that He will come as a thief. Yet this statement is not there for timing as Revelation 22:7, 20 clearly demonstrate. These verses toward the end of the Revelation are there as a general admonishment that Christ is indeed coming, and to be prepared in light of everything that you are reading in the entire book. Christ has established His parousia before the sixth bowl for four primary reasons. #1- Christ as the Son of Man is seen on a cloud in Revelation 14:14-16. This is the way that Christ was prophesied to come again, see Acts 1:9-11, Revelation 1:7, Psalm 97:2. #2- The destruction of the antichrist (man of sin, beast from the sea) was prophesied to occur at the parousia of Christ in II Thess. 2:8. To place the bowls which encompass the destruction of the beast before the parousia is in error according to II Thess. 2. Christ returns to earth, then destroys the man of sin with the brightness of His coming. Each of the bowls is related to the destruction of the antichrist and his kingdom. #3- The gathering of the armies of the earth is stated to occur after Christ has already returned. In Revelation 19:19-21, which is a further explanation of the supernatural gathering that occurs at the sixth bowl, the armies of the earth are gathering together against Christ who is already back and seated on His war horse. He returns, then they gather together against Him since it specifically states, “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against his army.” Zechariah 14:3-4 bears this out as well. Christ returns, then He goes forth to the Mount of Olives for the purpose of battle. His feet stand there because He walked over there, not because He descended to the Mount of Olives. Then the LORD goes forth to fight against the nations that gather together against Him. Psalm 2 also contains this general principle. #4- There is no evidence that has been presented to refute the previous sequence. Someone who claims that Revelation 16:15 proves that Jesus is not back yet is simply refusing to see how this statement is not a statement of timing, just as Revelation 22:7, 20 are not statements of timing. It is just a general statement of principle. Otherwise you must adopt the position that Jesus has not returned in Revelation 22:20. Those that do not heed the warning in Revelation 16:15 [which they are obviously reading the entire book beforehand] will be deceived into gathering together against Christ. These are they which have not kept their garments and walk spiritually naked. They will be deceived since they did not receive the love of the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

In your response, you will do four things. #1- You will not deal with the sequence of Revelation 12-16 as a whole. You will not deal with the placement of therismos as the harvest of souls into the kingdom of God placed directly in between the persecution against the saints which occurs before and the wrath of God which occurs after. #2- You will quote Revelation 16:15 again, even though your case in using this scripture as a time marker has no basis because of Revelation 22:7, 20 which cannot be used as time markers that Christ is coming sometime after those events described in Revelation 22. #3- You will turn to Matthew 13 and the parable of the wheat and the tares. Even though it has been demonstrated to you numerous times and in different ways that the tares are set aside to be burned at a later point in time while the wheat is gathered into the barn, you will still assert that you have some sort of case against PreWrath. It is this repetitive demeanor that makes any interaction with you to be fruitless. There can be no true dialogue unless you acknowledge what is being said and interact with it. But that is something you have repeatedly refused to do. #4- You will change the subject.

The floor is now yours.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

by **Douggg** on Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:04 am

Seeker wrote:The AC/horn makes war with the saints until the Ancient of days came (arrival of Jesus) and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

okay.

So once the tribulation that the AC starts begins it doesn't end until Jesus returns to stop it.

okay.

We know He stops it because the kingdom is given to the saints and only Jesus could take it from the AC and give it to the saints. That gives us the end point.

okay

The question is how long of time is there between the AOD (yr 3.5) and the return of Jesus.

For the answer and explanation to that question go to my thread "The 1335 days end..."

As you can see in this parallel account of Matthew 24 it says that except that the Lord HAD shortened the days no flesh would be saved. He HATH shortened the days. These are both past tense in that it has already been done verifying that Daniel 7 is correct in the 3 1/2 year timeframe. The tribulation ends at the last day of the last 7 years and immediatley after that we see the cosmic signs/6th seal and then Jesus returning in the clouds. So again since the 6th seal occurs on day 2520 there is no time left of the last 7 years as pre-wrath requires to fulfill all the trumpets and vials. It would require that the last 7 years be at least 7 years 5 months for pre-wrath since the 5th trumpet lasts 5 months itself.

I think part of your argument that the cosmic signs of 6th seal takes place on day 2520 hinges on the "immediately after" the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24:29 - as meaning after 100% of the tribulation is over, rather than "at the very end" of the tribulation of those days.

The problem with interpreting "immediately after" as meaning after 100% of the tribulation is over, and is on day 2520, is that there is no time, nor reason, for the kings of the earth to assemble their armies together to fight Jesus.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The way I interpret Revelation 6 is that it takes place right "at the very end" of the 7 years, but not exactly on day 2520. As the armies of the world are battling the Antichrist beast in Daniel 11, and the kings of the east are about to engage the Antichrist beast - unexpectedly !!!!!, like a thief, the cosmos part, and Jesus appears in heaven, sickle in hand.

To me, that is why the "Behold I come as a thief" in Revelation 16:15 is placed after the Euphrates is dried up for the kings of the east in Revelation 16:12. And as the explanation of why in Revelation 16:13-14 it says the unclean spirits metaphorically like frogs coming forth from their mouths that Satan, the False prophet, and Antichrist beast convince the kings of the earth to gather themselves together to battle on that great day of God Almighty.

Following the "Behold I come as a thief" verse in Revelation 16:15, it says in Revelation 16:16 where they gather together - Armageddon.

The motivation to gather their armies would be survival,. And the time it will take to assemble the armies to fight Jesus, I view the parting of the cosmos, to take place 45 days before day 2520. The 45 days is another topic, but I do have a bible basis.

The only thing I am pointing out is that there has to be a reason and enough time given - for kings to assemble the armies to make war on Jesus. If the parting of the cosmos takes place exactly on day 2520, there just isn't enough time allowed.

Doug

by **Douggg** on Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:30 am

The Orange Mailman wrote:Then the LORD comes in power and glory. He then destroys the beast and his followers during the period of time that the bowls are poured out. We do not know the exact amount of time it will take for the bowls to be poured out.

Hi Orange,

Revelation 16:6-12, 6 Bowls; then Revelation 16:13 -14, armies assemble for the great day of God Almighty; Revelation 16:15 is why, Jesus sickle in hand; Revelation 16:16 where they assemble - Armageddon; Revelation 16:17-21, 7th bowl.

Jesus descends to earth, the mount of Olives, day 2520, the 1335th day, Daniel 12:12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Doug

by **MarkT** on Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:02 am

Amazin...

Yet another person who thinks they can name the day Jesus returns to rescue us when Jesus said no one knows that day, not even Him.

by **Douggg** on Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:49 am

MarkT wrote:Amazin...

Yet another person who thinks they can name the day Jesus returns to rescue us when Jesus said no one knows that day, not even Him.

And what day would that be on my calendar? I would like to mark it down.

Doug

by **MarkT** on Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:21 am

Nobody is talking about calendar dates Douggg, we're all discussing timelines in respect to the one 'seven' and as far as your take on that goes, I think your take on the Rapture has absolutely no support; your calculations on the midpoint abomination miss the mark by a wide margin; and you have numbered the Day when Jesus returns to the earth, i.e., the Day of the Lord.

by **Douggg** on Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:17 am

MarkT wrote:Nobody is talking about calendar dates Douggg, we're all discussing timelines in respect to the one 'seven' and as far as your take on that goes, I think your take on the Rapture has absolutely no support; your calculations on the midpoint abomination miss the mark by a wide margin; and you have numbered the Day when Jesus returns to the earth, i.e., the Day of the Lord.

Mark T, you wrote... "Yet another person who thinks they can name the day Jesus returns to rescue us when Jesus said no one knows that day, not even Him." Jesus was speaking of a calendar day. You should probably just delete that particular post. And then I will delete mine.

Doug

by **MarkT** on Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:19 am

Oh, He was? Show that from what Jesus said as Matthew wrote in the Olivet Discourse... because strict date setting was so important that the Apostles always used exact calendar dates in their documentation of what they had experienced. Otherwise we wouldn't have Jesus' exact calendar birth and death dates...

Actually an idiomatic saying for Rosh ha-Shanah in their culture at that time was "the unknown day" because of the problematic nature of actually identifying when the first sliver of the new moon would actually be sighted.

Still we will not be able to figure when the Day of the Lord comes period - especially when we can finally correlate a particular day in the one 'seven' to a calendar date because we can date when it starts.

by **Douggg** on Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:36 pm

MarkT wrote:Oh, He was? Show that from what Jesus said as Matthew wrote in the Olivet Discourse...

Matthew 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Only if Jesus was referring to not knowing the calendar day, would it be questionable whether the AOD is setup in winter time or not.

Doug

by **MarkT** on Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:02 pm

And that indicates a calendar date? A season? The Sabbath?

And why did Jesus ask them to pray for those things? Is there some physical reason that either might delay their flight at the midpoint abomination? How does that then somehow translate to a calendar date for the Day of the Lord?

And what does that or your own particular eschatology have anything to do with a Pre-Wrath timeline? Literally, why are we having this argument? You picked the date for the Lord's Return, and now you want to say it's Biblical because Jesus doesn't want any impediment to those in Judea fleeing? That is as much a non sequitur as the Roman Catholics saying the Commandment not to make graven images doesn't apply since Jesus came the first time!

The strength of a Pre-Wrath eschatology is that it has concrete evidence to place the Day of the Lord within the one 'seven' without fingering the Day of the Lord. We can know when the time is ripe, and still not know when Jesus will come back.

And I'll up the ante one more: when the Day of the Lord comes, and when it does come, everybody will know it; no one will know the hour at which He Comes -- but in the evening it will be light.

by **Douggg** on Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:42 pm

MarkT wrote:And that indicates a calendar date? A season? The Sabbath?

If I said July 1, that would be summer.
If I said December 1, that would be winter.

If Jesus knew the day on the calendar, there would be no question as to whether the AOD will be setup in winter or not. Jesus was talking about not knowing a calendar day.

Literally, why are we having this argument?

Because you made a post in which you stated...referring to me... "Amazin... Yet another person who thinks they can name the day Jesus returns to rescue us when Jesus said no one knows that day, not even Him."

You should have just deleted your post like I suggested. Instead, you continued and asked me for proof of where in Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse, there was any indication that Jesus was referring to not knowing a calendar day. I have shown that. Just stop, go back delete your post and I will delete mine.

You picked the date for the Lord's Return, and now you want to say it's Biblical because Jesus doesn't want any impediment to those in Judea fleeing? That is as much a non sequitur as the Roman Catholics saying the Commandment not to make graven images doesn't apply since Jesus came the first time!

I didn't pick a "date" for the Lord's Return. I wrote that Jesus returns on day 2520 on a timeline. That is not a date.

You wrote... "now you want to say it's Biblical because Jesus doesn't want any impediment to those in Judea fleeing"

Are you addressing something I wrote? I don't get it. What are you talking about?

Doug

by **Seeker** on Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:06 am

Hi Mark,

Oh thanks dad, I didn't understand it at all... boy, you are pejorative with what I'm familiar with or not.

No, the Saints are oppressed for the first half of the one 'seven.' That is backed up in Rev 13.

Then at the midpoint, outright persecution exists which would wipe out the Elect if it were not shortened.

I have given the definitions of "shortened," and your interpretation does not align with the Greek that Matthew uses.

The Great Tribulation, starting after the first half oppression of Daniel 7, and after the midpoint abomination which is omitted from that narrative vision/inquiry/explanation - shortened.

I don't know what part of "shortened" as it is in the Greek you don't understand, but its basic understanding seems to elude you in favor of your eschatology.

Well apparently son you still don't get it. Let's look at what Daniel 7 shows us as to when it ends and how long it lasts.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel watched the horn until the beast was slain and "his" body destroyed and given to the burning flames. The body is described as "his" indicating the person of the AC. We know that this occurs at Armageddon in Rev 19. So the vision Daniel has here extends until the AC's body is destroyed in the fire.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The tribulation that Jesus refers to in Matt 24 begins at the AOD which is the midpoint of the last 7 years. We know when it ends as well.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

It begins at the AOD and ends after 3 1/2 years just as Daniel says.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The horn makes war with and prevails over the saints until Jesus returns and takes the kingdom from him. The horn has power over the saints for 3 1/2 years. It begins at the AOD (yr 3.5) and ends 3 1/2 years later just as scripture clearly states. The AC makes war with and prevails over the saints until the saints possess the kingdom. When do the saints possess the kingdom?

Peace,
Seeker

by **Seeker** on Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:15 am

Hi Mark,

Seeker wrote:
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The same horn (AC) made war with the saints and prevailed against them UNTIL Jesus came, judgment was given to the saints. and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. This interpretation received from the Lord tells us that the AC makes war with the saints until Jesus returns and the saints possess the kingdom.

The basic Sequence-of-Events here is preserved in the Pre-Wrath timeline.

You make the assumption that v.22 happens all at once.

There is no time marker that says all of verse 22 happens all at once.

Indeed, for the first half AND the shortened Great Tribulation Satan does make war on the Saints.
Indeed, that stops when Jesus comes.
Then God rules for the Saints, and they will rule during the Millennium.

Yes there is a time marker in the vision itself.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel beheld until the thrones were cast down and the Ancient of days did sit. Daniel beheld until the beast was slain and his body destroyed. The AC's body is destroyed in Rev 19.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Here is the same scene Daniel is describing. First we see Jesus in heaven on a white horse. The armies of heaven followed Him and a sharp sword goes out of His mouth with which He will smite the nations. And He treads the winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

We see the Ancient of days arrive (Jesus) and throw the AC's body into the flame. This is the end of the AC's war against the saints and then we see the resurrection in Rev 20:4. Jesus arrives, tosses the AC into the lake of fire, and then we see the resurrection.

Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Here in Daniel 11-12 we verify the same sequence. We see the AC attack Israel, then die in 11:45 followed by the resurrection in Dan 12:1-2. "At the same time" in Dan 12:1 connects the resurrection back to the death of the AC in 11:45.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Here we see the AOD (middle of last 7 years).

Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Notice that those who understand (tribulation saints) fall by the sword, flame, and by spoil for many days. To purge them and to make them white even until the time of the end. So they die until the time of the end.

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

And last we see his death. Now we know for sure when the AC dies in Rev 19 at Armageddon. That timestamps Dan 11:45 to Armageddon. The AOD would be 3 1/2 years before that if that is the correct timing.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

And here we see it is indeed for 3 1/2 years just as we would expect. It will be a time, times, and an half when he will have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things will be finished. That verifies how long the AC has over the saints. We know exactly when it begins at the AOD (Matt 24:15) and according to Daniel 12 and Daniel 7 it lasts for 3 1/2 years. Simple math 3.5 plus 3.5 equals 7. It will take 3 1/2 years for the AC to have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people. Again scripture refutes your notion of the 3 1/2 years being cut short.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Except that the Lord "HAD" shortened those days. The days have already been shortened to 3 1/2 years just as Dan 12 and Dan 7 say.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Seeker** on Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:26 am

Hi Mark,

MarkT wrote:
The Great Tribulation is cut short. It is abruptly cut short for the wicked by the unexpected arrival of the Day of the Lord which is unknown for the Christian, yet we will not be taken unaware but will be longing for it.

Seeker wrote:
So since we are aware and longing for it then it won't be abrupt to us? How could it be abrupt to us on the day the sinners are surprised by the Lord? That would mean the saints are here the day that the Lord takes the sinners.

No, that would not mean that we are here for God's Wrath which "takes" the sinners. The wicked are not taken.

No, and I said it would be abruptly cut short because that is the way the Day of the Lord cuts short the Great Tribulation. I did not say it would be abrupt to us... for us, it will be a welcome Day no matter how it "comes" to us!

It will be abrupt because we won't know until it comes that it's here!
--Unlike your "last day" eschatology.

Nobody knows when the Day of the Lord is coming, however WE CAN KNOW when the time is ripe; Jesus said so.

Ok you did not say that it would be abrupt to us but rather for us it will be a welcome day. So it is abrubtly cut short for the sinners and a welcome day for us. That is what I think you are saying is that correct? I wasn't eluding to whether or not the Christians were taken abrubtly but rather to the point that the Christians were there at all. If the Christians are there welcoming the day that the sinners are abrubtly taken wouldn't that have the Christians present along side the sinners the day the sinners are destroyed?

And like I said no one knows the day Jesus returns under my scenario either. We are not given an amount of time after the cosmic signs so we can't know the day nor the hour but can know it is after the 6th seal just as it is after the AOD and after the tribulation. The cosmic signs occur immediately after the tribulation. We know the trib is 3 1/2 years long so the cosmic signs/6th seal can't occur until the end of the tribulation. But none of that means we know the day or the hour. All that we know is that Jesus returns after the trib and after the cosmic signs but scripture does not tell us how long after the 6th seal before Jesus arrives.

Peace,
Seeker

by **MarkT** on Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:43 am

What you think I'm saying reflects your thinking a whole lot more than my saying and as I'm beginning to see, your thinking is a thing quite apart from what you are reading.

by **MarkT** on Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:10 pm

Douggg wrote:If I said July 1, that would be summer.
If I said December 1, that would be winter.

No, you would be talking about a calendar date. And besides, December first is not in the winter season.

Douggg wrote:If Jesus knew the day on the calendar, there would be no question as to whether the AOD will be setup in winter or not. Jesus was talking about not knowing a calendar day.

No, He did not name a date, and if He had, it wouldn't have been stated as July, or December...

Furthermore, Jesus was not talking about dating at all in that portion of the Olivet Discourse, He was talking about having people pray that their flight not be impeded because at this time, they're going to have to "fly."

You don't know what I'm talking about here? I thought you had studied the Bible for 40 years.

Douggg wrote:I didn't pick a "date" for the Lord's Return. I wrote that Jesus returns on day 2520 on a timeline. That is not a date.

Sure it is. And it is a date. It's not a calendar date just yet, but it will be because you specified a numbered day in a period of days - the one 'seven' which is more important than any month; therefore setting a date which can be determined beforehand once the one 'seven' starts... and if you miss that, then the midpoint abomination might just clue you in... but then you'd get that wrong again because of your misinterpretation of Daniel 12.