Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2 Peter 3:8-12
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
1 Corinthians 1:4-8
4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,
5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,
6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
What a great post- thanks Seeker!
(Edited to add: I mistakenly thought this was the pre-trib forum- but still appreciate the post- and will let my observations say what they will, however I will not debate the rapture timing as this is the post trib forum. Sorry about that.)
Here's some NT verses about the Day of the Lord:
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
The day of the Lord comes like a thief to those in darkness when they are saying "peace and safety", but not to those who are sons of light who are sober and alert. Who are not destined for wrath but for salvation.
Peter seems to indicate that the Day of the Lord is like 1000 years. He too says it comes like a thief. In it the current heaven and earth will be consumed in fire.
The day of the Lord is when Jesus Returns.....
david wrote:Seeker, very well done.
Seeker, very well done. This is one of my favorite subjects and one I am very exited about. I have always wanted to compile all the "Days of the Lord" for my own study, now I don't have to, you did it! I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on "Elijah's" return as compared to the two Witnesses and more about how and where they fit in.
In Joel we see it's after Jesus has set foot at the Mount of Olives....
Mostly agree with everything ... but, I struggle to determine if the days are cut short from 3.5 to something less, or, cut short to 3.5 years from something longer.
I struggle to determine if the days are cut short from 3.5 to something less, or, cut short to 3.5 years from something longer.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The worst tribulation ever seen or that ever will be seen occurs and if those days of tribulation were not shortened then no flesh would be saved. If the tribulation were allowed to continue all flesh would be lost. We know that there is a remnant that survives the tribulation so the days have been cut short or there would be no remnant. The provisions to save the remnant are provided within the given timeframes mentioned in various prophetic passages. 3 1/2 years is mentioned many many times. There is no need to take any days away from the 3 1/2 years because the saints are given the kingdom within that time span.
Seeker wrote:but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
I am not quite certain what you are saying in your post above though. Do you still favor pre-wrath or do you mean you did and now not sure? If you still lean toward pre-wrath or are uncertain let's discuss it.
Thank you for your response. Let me begin by saying that I really thought that I had it all figured out - and I became so very certain that the Post Tribulation view was "spot on". But Revelation 7 continues to give me problems. I believe that in essence, the Post Tribulation view is somewhat the same as the Pre-Wrath view, in that they are both discussing the timing of the Rapture to occur AFTER the tribulation period. This point about both views is without a doubt, Scripturally Sound.
Ok Seeker......please tell me: Are we being "gathered together unto Him in the Air/Clouds" as He descends at His Return AFTER the Great Tribulation?" Or are we "gathered together" prior to His Wrath, and appear before the Throne - as He descends gradually while His Wrath is being poured out on the Earth?
I mean what is going on at our Gathering unto Him - how long is His Wrath being poured out on the Earth - and what are those who have been gathered unto Him doing? Are we hovering in the Clouds - I mean I am just completely lost after Scripture mentions the Rapture in both Matthew 24 and how it connects to Revelation 7.
Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Seeker,
I've been a bit under the weather, so I've not had a chance to really digest what you have responded with. This flu nonsense that is going around really has me feeling bad. I briefly read what you have responded to - and I thank you. I'm not 100% at this moment, so I will respond when I'm feeling better.....
I did however notice that you have Christ returning at the 6th Seal - I would like to know at what point in your studies, do you have His Wrath being poured out; how does this work in conjunction with our gathering unto Him - and last but not least, I will review Revelation 14 and get back with you concerning it's connection to the Rapture as well.
Have you ever considered that the 6th and 7th seals might be opened out of sequence?
Seeker wrote:The 5th seal shows the tribulation that ends with the cosmic signs appearing.
Seeker wrote:Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Let me add that in Matthew 24:30 it shows that the SIGN of the Son of Man appears in the sky prior to His actual coming. In mentioning this....we do not have a time frame in which this SIGN, whatever it is - or may be, is actually seen in the sky prior to His Return. This time frame can definitely vary - as the SIGN is given as a precursor to His actual Return.
Reading further in Revelation 6:13-17 what we have are "Cosmic Disturbances" along with a plea (from the wicked) to the mountains & rocks to fall on them and hide them from the "presence" of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb - the great day of their wrath has come. Now, the "presence" of Him, is quite different from His actual coming or descending down to the Earth.
I have mentioned this because again, we have in Revelation 7:9-14 that clearly shows a Multitude that no man can number that has appeared in Heaven before the Throne of God - and Scripture is very clear that these are those who have come out of the Great Tribulation.
Now, I have a series of questions for you ....if Christ is Returning to Earth at the 6th Seal, and His Wrath is being poured out as mentioned in Revelation 6 - what's going on with those souls who were under the alter, and have been told to wait until more have been slain - at what point are they resurrected? What's going on with the Multitude that appear in Heaven that have come out of the Great Tribulation at this point?
Are they along with those who have been slain and are under the alter resurrected at the same time? And how can we have the Elect being gathered unto Him at His Return, if they have already been mentioned as being in Heaven, and have come out of the Great Tribulation?
Seeker wrote:Hi Sonbeam,Have you ever considered that the 6th and 7th seals might be opened out of sequence?
I hadn't ever considered that as I believe since they are numbered specifically in a numeric order that is the order they are meant to be in. I reviewed your thread and noticed that your theory leads you to the conclusion that the wrath of God occurs after the rapture. I believe that scripture can be shown to support the rapture following the wrath of God as I also outline in my Post-Wrath thread here in the Post-Trib section. What is it specifically that leads you to believe the rapture is before the wrath?
Peace,
Seeker
Also.....as mentioned, we clearly have the Wrath of the Lamb being poured out at the 6th Seal....if the wicked are being destroyed at that point what's the purpose of the Sheep & Goats Judgment at His Coming? (Matthew 25:31-46) I'm just trying to understand who would be left alive to Judge at His Coming - and who are the Righteous who are alive at that time to be separated from the wicked? And lastly......are the Righteous accompanying Him at the 6th Seal as He Returns as well - If so, where are they (location), and what are they doing?
1 Thessalonians 5:9,10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. says it like this,
Seeker wrote:If this group came out of "the" great tribulation what would be the timing of them coming out of the great tribulation? Once again the great tribulation begins at the midpoint of the last 7 years and lasts 3 1/2 years to the end of the last 7 years. That would mean that to get the whole multitude the great trib would have to be over which sets the timing for this multitude to the end of the last 7 years. The seal/trumpet/vial judgments are over by the end of the last 7 years. How would that fit a pre-wrath model? Also if there were a multitude that no man can number how could have that many came out of the great tribulation?
Seeker wrote:Would you agree that they cannot be resurrected until the resurrection? Or do you think they get a special resurrection, then the rest of the saints are resurrected, and then the GWTJ? I find no evidence in scripture for a special limited resurrection.Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Seeker wrote:Do you think any of the multitude in Rev 7 are part of any of the groups mentioned as being raised at the last day? Both groups you mention have to be part of the group of all which He hath given Jesus and as such are raised on the last day. I find no evidence for a split elect resurrection. That being the case I have to say that what the bible calls the "first" resurrection is the resurrection of all the saints. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. This resurrection doesn't take place until after all have been beheaded who will be beheaded by the AC. His reign doesn't end until the end of the last 7 years. Therefore the resurrection of Rev 20:4 doesn't take place prior to the end of the reign of the AC, which is the end of the last 7 years. So since the multitude of Rev 7 are defined as trib saints by your question they couldn't all be in heaven until after Rev 20:4. When would you say Rev 20:4 takes place? That will answer your question.
Also.....as mentioned, we clearly have the Wrath of the Lamb being poured out at the 6th Seal....if the wicked are being destroyed at that point what's the purpose of the Sheep & Goats Judgment at His Coming? (Matthew 25:31-46) I'm just trying to understand who would be left alive to Judge at His Coming - and who are the Righteous who are alive at that time to be separated from the wicked? And lastly......are the Righteous accompanying Him at the 6th Seal as He Returns as well - If so, where are they (location), and what are they doing?
Seeker wrote:The wheat/sheep and the tares/goats are to grow together until the harvest. At the time of the harvest they are separated but not before that. Both groups are taken at the same time like we see in Matt 25. Notice that the tares are removed "first" that gives us the order of departure.
Seeker wrote:We also know that God will bring those who sleep in Jesus with him to the rapture and we meet them in the air. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Here we see Jesus coming with the dead in Christ to execute judgment upon all the ungodly things. Those are the dead in Christ under the altar asking God to avenge their deaths which happens in Jude 1:15. God brings the dead in Christ with Him to execute judgment upon the sinners. Jesus executes judgment, the dead in Christ bodies are resurrected and we meet them in the air to ever be with the Lord. That satisfies the tares being removed before the wheat and also matches what we see in Rev 19.
Seeker wrote: Are you familiar with the net parable of Matt 13? Can you explain that parable for me while I work on my computer issues. I am curious as to why you have never discussed the net parable since I mention it in about every other post thanks.
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