And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 2:2-4
Here in Isaiah 2 we get a glimpse into the millennial reign of Jesus described as happening in the "last days". No more war finally. Jesus is reigning and the nations are being taught the Lord's ways from Jerusalem. That's how it all ends but before we get to that point there is one final period spoken of throughout the bible. The Old Testament prophets, such as Isaiah, referred to this as the "day of the Lord".
Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: Isaiah 2:10-12
The Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. A truely terrifying day for the ungodly as they are told to hide in the dust. The day of the Lord will affect everyone who is proud/lofty/lifted up. They will be brought down. Right from the beginning we are told who the day of the Lord is aimed at. The sinners are the receipients of the day of the Lord.
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Isaiah 13:6-13
Isaiah goes into greater detail in chapter 13. Now we are told the day of the Lord will come as a destruction from the Almighty. The terror of the sinners is portrayed in greater detail here. It will surely be a day they will never forget. The day of the Lord comes cruel both with wrath and fierce anger. God isn't messing around here as we can see. The land is laid desolate and He will destroy the sinners out of the land. He will punish the world for their evil, the wicked for their iniquity...etc. The purpose of the "day of the Lord" is to punish sinners. Isaiah is clear about that.
We are also given new details regarding our solar system and universe in Isaiah 13. For the stars of heaven and constellations will not give their light. So the night sky is darkened along with the sun and moon in association with "the day of the Lord". The heavens will shake and the earth move out of her place during the wrath of the Lord in the day of His fierce anger. The story gets progressively more detailed as we move through the book of Isaiah. We are building upon our understanding of the day of the Lord gradually and methodically.
Proud and lofty brought down /Isa 2
As a destruction from the Almighty /Isa 13
Lay the land desolate /Isa 13
Destroy the sinners out of the land /Isa 13
Stars and constellations darkened /Isa 13
Sun and moon darkened /Isa 13
Shake the heavens /Isa 13
Move the earth out of her place /Isa 13
Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Alas the day of the Lord is at hand as a destruction from the Almighty again just like Isaiah 13.
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
There is some new info for us concerning the day of the Lord. We can use that to expand our view of the day of the Lord. Now our characteristic list is as follows:
Proud and lofty brought down /Isa 2
As a destruction from the Almighty /Isa 13
Lay the land desolate /Isa 13
Destroy the sinners out of the land /Isa 13
Stars and constellations darkened /Isa 13
Sun and moon darkened /Isa 13
Shake the heavens /Isa 13
Move the earth out of her place /Isa 13
As a destruction from the Almighty /Joel 1
A day of darkness and gloominess /Joel 2
A day of clouds and thick darkness /Joel 2
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
The sun and moon are dark here in this description of the day of the Lord. Joel verifies the validity of the cosmic signs occuring in association with the day of the Lord. They were in Isaiah 13 and now we see them in Joel 2 and we will see them again in Joel 3. Joel 2:11 gives us a couple more characteristics describing the day of the Lord, it is a great and terrible day.
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
The Lord brings an army with Him on the day of the Lord to remove the northern army from Israel.
And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:27-32
Proud and lofty brought down /Isa 2
As a destruction from the Almighty /Isa 13
Lay the land desolate /Isa 13
Destroy the sinners out of the land /Isa 13
Stars and constellations darkened /Isa 13
Sun and moon darkened /Isa 13
Shake the heavens /Isa 13
Move the earth out of her place /Isa 13
As a destruction from the Almighty /Joel 1
A day of darkness and gloominess /Joel 2
A day of clouds and thick darkness /Joel 2
A great and terrible day /Joel 2
The Lord brings an army with Him /Joel 2
The Lord defeats the nothern army in Israel /Joel 2
They will know the Lord is in the midst of Israel /Joel 2
They will know He is the Lord their God /Joel 2
His people will never be ashamed /Joel 2
He will pour His spirit out upon all flesh /Joel 2
Show wonders in the heavens /Joel 2
The sun/moon dark before the DOTL /Joel 2
Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved /Joel 2
In Jerusalem will be deliverance /Joel 2
See how the picture we have of the day of the Lord is becoming more of a story as we add details from the various descriptions of the DOTL....there is a war in Israel that Jesus defeats with an army He brings with Him. Just before that the sun/moon/stars are darkened making the DOTL a terrible, dark, gloomy day with wonders in the heavens, the earth moved out of its place, a destruction from the Almighty...
The story pretty well writes itself as we add details to our characteristic list of the day of the Lord. I will stop for now and continue on with Joel 3 and beyond in the next post of this series.
Peace,
Seeker
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Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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Understanding the "day of the LORD"
103 posts • Page 1 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:14 am
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
The heathen are gathered and judged for the day of the Lord.
The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion. Joel 3:15-21
Proud and lofty brought down /Isa 2
As a destruction from the Almighty /Isa 13
Lay the land desolate /Isa 13
Destroy the sinners out of the land /Isa 13
Stars and constellations darkened /Isa 13
Sun and moon darkened /Isa 13
Shake the heavens /Isa 13
Move the earth out of her place /Isa 13
As a destruction from the Almighty /Joel 1
A day of darkness and gloominess /Joel 2
A day of clouds and thick darkness /Joel 2
A great and terrible day /Joel 2
The Lord brings an army with Him /Joel 2
The Lord defeats the nothern army in Israel /Joel 2
They will know the Lord is in the midst of Israel /Joel 2
They will know He is the Lord their God /Joel 2
His people will never be ashamed /Joel 2
He will pour His spirit out upon all flesh /Joel 2
Show wonders in the heavens /Joel 2
The sun/moon dark before the DOTL /Joel 2
Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved /Joel 2
In Jerusalem will be deliverance /Joel 2
Sun/moon/stars darkened /Joel 3
Lord roars out of Zion uttering His voice from Jerusalem /Joel 3
Heavens and earth will shake /Joel 3
Lord will be the hope of His people /Joel 3
They will know the Lord their God is dwelling in Zion /Joel 3
Then will Jerusalem be holy and no strangers pass through her /Joel 3
The mountains drop new wine, the hills flow with milk /Joel 3
The Lord dwells in Zion /Joel 3
At the very end of Joel 3 we see the Lord dwelling in Jerusalem during the millennium. That connects the conclusion of the day of the Lord to the beginning of the millennium. All the characteristics from Isaiah 2 through Joel 3 are part of the day of the Lord as listed above. There are more than included in the list because I didn't include every characteristic found in the text. What we begin to see,though, are common themes between the different accounts by the different prophets. There is a core set of characteristics developing in our list containing several themes.
1) The proud/sinners brought down/destroyed out of the land
2) God defeats an army gathered in Israel/destruction from the Almighty
3) The DOTL is a terrible, dark, gloomy, day with the sun/moon/stars darkened
4) The land destroyed/earth moved out of its place
5) The heavens and earth shake
6) The Lord will be the hope of His people/Lord roars out of Zion
7) The Lord dwells in Jerusalem
I think we can pretty well condense the long characteristic list we have been building with the summary list above. There are many additional scriptures with characteristics to look at. Our list would get too long to manage very well as nearly every OT prophet speaks to some degree on this subject. We have enough core information to start the connect the dots part of this study. We can use the information that we have gathered thus far to compare and recognize other DOTL scriptures contained within the bible.
For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it. And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south. And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. Obadiah 1:15-21
Here in Obadiah we see several of our characteristics. The kingdom will be the Lord's, the DOTL is near upon all the heathen, on mount Zion will be deliverence, Israel possesses the promised land. So we can add Israel possessing the land to our characeristic list if we wanted. Next time we see scripture with Israel possessing the promised land we can connect it with the ending of the DOTL.
The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah. I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD. I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests; And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham; And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him. Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel. In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off. And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof. The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. Zephaniah chapter 1
Zephaniah lays it all out in 3 chapters. Same story we have been studying. The significant new information that we pick up in Zephaniah one is that the whole land will be devoured by the fire of His jealousy for He will make speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. Again we are talking about the sinners when talking about speedy riddance. Now we have a hint as to how God destroys the sinners, the fire of His jealousy. This is important because later we will use the fire to connect other parts of scripture solidly to the day of the Lord.
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah speaks of the DOTL in 14:1 and then lists a couple of our characteristics (fight against armies in Israel & Lord in Jerusalem). Now we see something very very important here. Zechariah connects the DOTL to when Jesus arrives on the mount of Olives. So now we can actually connect all the characteristics in the list to when Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives or at His second coming.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Jesus directly referred to the coming of Elijah and His return. Malachi says Elijah will come before the great and dreadful day we have been discussing, the day of the Lord. So this further strengthens the connection between the DOTL and the return of Jesus.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
We know Paul is speaking of the return of Christ here and he uses the phrase "day of the Lord" associated with coming as a thief which Jesus spoke of as well. Another solid connection between the DOTL and return of Jesus.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
And again Peter associates the DOTL with the return of Jesus and also connects that event with fire like back in Zephaniah. The Old Testament and the New Testament are really just The Testament as they speak of the same day, the return of Jesus. It is really just one book with a common theme once we understand that the DOTL and the return of Christ are one and the same. There is plenty of additional scripture to support this assertion as we will see in future posts.
Peace,
Seeker
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
The heathen are gathered and judged for the day of the Lord.
The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion. Joel 3:15-21
Proud and lofty brought down /Isa 2
As a destruction from the Almighty /Isa 13
Lay the land desolate /Isa 13
Destroy the sinners out of the land /Isa 13
Stars and constellations darkened /Isa 13
Sun and moon darkened /Isa 13
Shake the heavens /Isa 13
Move the earth out of her place /Isa 13
As a destruction from the Almighty /Joel 1
A day of darkness and gloominess /Joel 2
A day of clouds and thick darkness /Joel 2
A great and terrible day /Joel 2
The Lord brings an army with Him /Joel 2
The Lord defeats the nothern army in Israel /Joel 2
They will know the Lord is in the midst of Israel /Joel 2
They will know He is the Lord their God /Joel 2
His people will never be ashamed /Joel 2
He will pour His spirit out upon all flesh /Joel 2
Show wonders in the heavens /Joel 2
The sun/moon dark before the DOTL /Joel 2
Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved /Joel 2
In Jerusalem will be deliverance /Joel 2
Sun/moon/stars darkened /Joel 3
Lord roars out of Zion uttering His voice from Jerusalem /Joel 3
Heavens and earth will shake /Joel 3
Lord will be the hope of His people /Joel 3
They will know the Lord their God is dwelling in Zion /Joel 3
Then will Jerusalem be holy and no strangers pass through her /Joel 3
The mountains drop new wine, the hills flow with milk /Joel 3
The Lord dwells in Zion /Joel 3
At the very end of Joel 3 we see the Lord dwelling in Jerusalem during the millennium. That connects the conclusion of the day of the Lord to the beginning of the millennium. All the characteristics from Isaiah 2 through Joel 3 are part of the day of the Lord as listed above. There are more than included in the list because I didn't include every characteristic found in the text. What we begin to see,though, are common themes between the different accounts by the different prophets. There is a core set of characteristics developing in our list containing several themes.
1) The proud/sinners brought down/destroyed out of the land
2) God defeats an army gathered in Israel/destruction from the Almighty
3) The DOTL is a terrible, dark, gloomy, day with the sun/moon/stars darkened
4) The land destroyed/earth moved out of its place
5) The heavens and earth shake
6) The Lord will be the hope of His people/Lord roars out of Zion
7) The Lord dwells in Jerusalem
I think we can pretty well condense the long characteristic list we have been building with the summary list above. There are many additional scriptures with characteristics to look at. Our list would get too long to manage very well as nearly every OT prophet speaks to some degree on this subject. We have enough core information to start the connect the dots part of this study. We can use the information that we have gathered thus far to compare and recognize other DOTL scriptures contained within the bible.
For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it. And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south. And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. Obadiah 1:15-21
Here in Obadiah we see several of our characteristics. The kingdom will be the Lord's, the DOTL is near upon all the heathen, on mount Zion will be deliverence, Israel possesses the promised land. So we can add Israel possessing the land to our characeristic list if we wanted. Next time we see scripture with Israel possessing the promised land we can connect it with the ending of the DOTL.
The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah. I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD. I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests; And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham; And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him. Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests. And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel. In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off. And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil. Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof. The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. Zephaniah chapter 1
Zephaniah lays it all out in 3 chapters. Same story we have been studying. The significant new information that we pick up in Zephaniah one is that the whole land will be devoured by the fire of His jealousy for He will make speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. Again we are talking about the sinners when talking about speedy riddance. Now we have a hint as to how God destroys the sinners, the fire of His jealousy. This is important because later we will use the fire to connect other parts of scripture solidly to the day of the Lord.
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah speaks of the DOTL in 14:1 and then lists a couple of our characteristics (fight against armies in Israel & Lord in Jerusalem). Now we see something very very important here. Zechariah connects the DOTL to when Jesus arrives on the mount of Olives. So now we can actually connect all the characteristics in the list to when Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives or at His second coming.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Jesus directly referred to the coming of Elijah and His return. Malachi says Elijah will come before the great and dreadful day we have been discussing, the day of the Lord. So this further strengthens the connection between the DOTL and the return of Jesus.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
We know Paul is speaking of the return of Christ here and he uses the phrase "day of the Lord" associated with coming as a thief which Jesus spoke of as well. Another solid connection between the DOTL and return of Jesus.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
And again Peter associates the DOTL with the return of Jesus and also connects that event with fire like back in Zephaniah. The Old Testament and the New Testament are really just The Testament as they speak of the same day, the return of Jesus. It is really just one book with a common theme once we understand that the DOTL and the return of Christ are one and the same. There is plenty of additional scripture to support this assertion as we will see in future posts.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:52 pm
The wording that Peter uses to describe the return of Jesus is very descriptive and detailed. The words he chose to use describes the heavens passing away and the elements melting with fervent heat. The earth and the works therein will be burned up. If we recall Zephaniah spoke of the fire of the jealousy of God as the instrument used against the heathen.
Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering. In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain. I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden. Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame. At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD. Zephaniah 3:8-20
The third chapter of Zephaniah says it pretty plainly. The Lord will gather armies in Israel to destroy them and then return Israel to their land and to Himself. This is an important timestamp because it is a unique event. Israel may only return to God forever one time in the future. Any time we see that event we can link it to the day of the Lord.
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Zep 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
Zep 2:2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.
Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.
The story begins in Zep 1 and continues into Zep 2 and through to Zep 3. All 3 chapters are discussing the same events associated with the day of the Lord. Again we see the characteristics list we gathered scattered throughout Zephaniah. Now back to the fire of His jealousy. Peter and Zephaniah associate fire with the DOTL. The fire of his jealousy is a phrase also found here.
Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Here we see our story again in Ezekiel 38-39. Army in Israel, God defeats that army, heathen know God judged them, God pours His spirit out upon Israel, Israel returns to the Lord forever after. The Gog war is easy to identify as the same DOTL set of events we have been looking at. It has many of the characteristics we have been gathering. But most importantly it has Israel returning to the Lord forever which can only occur once. This has to be the same as what the rest of the prophets have been speaking of. God sends fire and brimestone in Eze 38 and sends fire on Magog in Eze 39. Again we see fire as an instrument of destruction.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
There can be no doubt Peter was teaching that an intense fire will be accompanying the Lord upon His return.
Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 10:6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
Joe 1:19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
Joe 1:20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Amo 1:2 And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.
Amo 1:3 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Damascus, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have threshed Gilead with threshing instruments of iron:
Amo 1:4 But I will send a fire into the house of Hazael, which shall devour the palaces of Benhadad.
Amo 1:7 But I will send a fire on the wall of Gaza, which shall devour the palaces thereof:
The fire continues into Amos 2. In all these prophets and the DOTL we see fire involved. There is a pattern developing which allows me to add Destroyed by fire to the characteristic list for the DOTL.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Again there is fire associated with the vengence upon sinners. Jesus is revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengence on the ungodly. Matches what we know about the OT DOTL because again they are the same set of events.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Lot's of descriptions of Jesus with fire/brightness. Jesus returns in flaming fire taking vengence on those that don't know God. That is consistant with the OT descriptions of fire involved. As this study continues we will look at the cosmic disturbances. They also form an extremely compelling case for the DOTL being the same set of events that occur at the return of Jesus.
Peace,
Seeker
Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering. In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain. I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden. Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame. At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD. Zephaniah 3:8-20
The third chapter of Zephaniah says it pretty plainly. The Lord will gather armies in Israel to destroy them and then return Israel to their land and to Himself. This is an important timestamp because it is a unique event. Israel may only return to God forever one time in the future. Any time we see that event we can link it to the day of the Lord.
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Zep 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
Zep 2:2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.
Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.
The story begins in Zep 1 and continues into Zep 2 and through to Zep 3. All 3 chapters are discussing the same events associated with the day of the Lord. Again we see the characteristics list we gathered scattered throughout Zephaniah. Now back to the fire of His jealousy. Peter and Zephaniah associate fire with the DOTL. The fire of his jealousy is a phrase also found here.
Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Here we see our story again in Ezekiel 38-39. Army in Israel, God defeats that army, heathen know God judged them, God pours His spirit out upon Israel, Israel returns to the Lord forever after. The Gog war is easy to identify as the same DOTL set of events we have been looking at. It has many of the characteristics we have been gathering. But most importantly it has Israel returning to the Lord forever which can only occur once. This has to be the same as what the rest of the prophets have been speaking of. God sends fire and brimestone in Eze 38 and sends fire on Magog in Eze 39. Again we see fire as an instrument of destruction.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
There can be no doubt Peter was teaching that an intense fire will be accompanying the Lord upon His return.
Isa 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 10:6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
Joe 1:19 O LORD, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
Joe 1:20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.
Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
Joe 2:5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
Amo 1:2 And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.
Amo 1:3 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Damascus, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have threshed Gilead with threshing instruments of iron:
Amo 1:4 But I will send a fire into the house of Hazael, which shall devour the palaces of Benhadad.
Amo 1:7 But I will send a fire on the wall of Gaza, which shall devour the palaces thereof:
The fire continues into Amos 2. In all these prophets and the DOTL we see fire involved. There is a pattern developing which allows me to add Destroyed by fire to the characteristic list for the DOTL.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Again there is fire associated with the vengence upon sinners. Jesus is revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengence on the ungodly. Matches what we know about the OT DOTL because again they are the same set of events.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Lot's of descriptions of Jesus with fire/brightness. Jesus returns in flaming fire taking vengence on those that don't know God. That is consistant with the OT descriptions of fire involved. As this study continues we will look at the cosmic disturbances. They also form an extremely compelling case for the DOTL being the same set of events that occur at the return of Jesus.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:56 pm
Isa 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isaiah is the first to use the phrase "day of the Lord" in scripture. I consider Isaiah the prophet of prophets. The prime source for information regarding the day of the Lord. Isaiah mentions many cataclysmic events of stellar porportions in his different descriptions of the "day of the Lord". Since the same prophet wrote all these things we can conclude that all the events are related to the DOTL.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
In Isaiah 2 the DOTL was upon the proud and lofty then in Isaiah 13 the DOTL is to destroy the sinners out of the land, punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. He will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease linking the two accounts of the DOTL together via the proud and being the same person writing both accounts. The DOTL arrives cruel with wrath and fierce anger. The sinners are the ones receiving God's wrath here. What we see is that the DOTL is God's punishment of the sinners. The other thing we see are some cosmic occurances associated with the wrath of the sinners. I call these the "cosmic signs" as they are found in various places in the bible.
1) The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light
2) The sun shall be darkened
3) The moon shall not cause her light to shine
4) God will shake the heavens
5) Remove the earth out of her place
These events affect the entire universe as we see from the descriptions found in Isaiah 13. They occur in conjunction with the DOTL wrath of sinners.
Isa 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
The context of Isaiah 34 tells us this is the DOTL also. We see heaven dissolved rolled together as a scroll. That would darken the heavens as in Isaiah 13 and we see it is the Lord's vengence upon all nations. He has utterly destroyed their armies. Again we see this directed toward the sinners and occuring with cosmic disturbances. We can add some more cosmic descriptions to our list.
1) The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light
2) The sun shall be darkened
3) The moon shall not cause her light to shine
4) God will shake the heavens
5) Remove the earth out of her place
6) All the host of heaven dissolved
7) Heavens rolled together as a scroll
8) Host fall down as leaf from tree/ fig from fig tree
Our overall picture of the cataclysmic events which accompany the DOTL is growing. From this basic description that Isaiah gives us we can link with and identify other scripture associated with the DOTL.
Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Here is the first use of the phrase DOTL by Joel. He describes it as a destruction from the Almighty. Sounds like what Isaiah was talking about.
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
A dark day sounds like it would fit a stellar blackout.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
There we go sun/moon/stars dark just like Isaiah's account.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
1) The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light
2) The sun shall be darkened
3) The moon shall not cause her light to shine
4) God will shake the heavens
5) Remove the earth out of her place
6) All the host of heaven dissolved
7) Heavens rolled together as a scroll
8) Host fall down as leaf from tree/ fig from fig tree
9) Moon into blood
10) The sun/moon/stars are darkened before the DOTL
Joel uses "into blood" rather than "dark" for the moon in 2:31 which tells us these two terms may both be used in describing this event. Joel also gives us a very important piece of information. The cosmic signs (sun/moon/stars dark) occur "before" the DOTL. So there will be some unmistakable events that occur just before the DOTL. The earth will be plunged into darkness leading up to the DOTL.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
1) The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light
2) The sun shall be darkened
3) The moon shall not cause her light to shine
4) God will shake the heavens
5) Remove the earth out of her place
6) All the host of heaven dissolved
7) Heavens rolled together as a scroll
8) Host fall down as leaf from tree/ fig from fig tree
9) Moon into blood
10) The sun/moon/stars are darkened before the DOTL
11) Lord roar out of Zion
12) Utter His voice from Jerusalem
13) Heavens and earth shake
14) God the hope and strength of Israel
15) God dwelling in Zion
Joel 3 gives us a bunch of new info for our list concerning the actions of God at that time. So at the time the sinners are subject to wrath we have the cosmic signs, DOTL, and God dwelling in Zion. I will stop there for now and continue the next post with Amos, Obadiah, and the rest...
Peace,
Seeker
Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isaiah is the first to use the phrase "day of the Lord" in scripture. I consider Isaiah the prophet of prophets. The prime source for information regarding the day of the Lord. Isaiah mentions many cataclysmic events of stellar porportions in his different descriptions of the "day of the Lord". Since the same prophet wrote all these things we can conclude that all the events are related to the DOTL.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
In Isaiah 2 the DOTL was upon the proud and lofty then in Isaiah 13 the DOTL is to destroy the sinners out of the land, punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. He will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease linking the two accounts of the DOTL together via the proud and being the same person writing both accounts. The DOTL arrives cruel with wrath and fierce anger. The sinners are the ones receiving God's wrath here. What we see is that the DOTL is God's punishment of the sinners. The other thing we see are some cosmic occurances associated with the wrath of the sinners. I call these the "cosmic signs" as they are found in various places in the bible.
1) The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light
2) The sun shall be darkened
3) The moon shall not cause her light to shine
4) God will shake the heavens
5) Remove the earth out of her place
These events affect the entire universe as we see from the descriptions found in Isaiah 13. They occur in conjunction with the DOTL wrath of sinners.
Isa 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
The context of Isaiah 34 tells us this is the DOTL also. We see heaven dissolved rolled together as a scroll. That would darken the heavens as in Isaiah 13 and we see it is the Lord's vengence upon all nations. He has utterly destroyed their armies. Again we see this directed toward the sinners and occuring with cosmic disturbances. We can add some more cosmic descriptions to our list.
1) The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light
2) The sun shall be darkened
3) The moon shall not cause her light to shine
4) God will shake the heavens
5) Remove the earth out of her place
6) All the host of heaven dissolved
7) Heavens rolled together as a scroll
8) Host fall down as leaf from tree/ fig from fig tree
Our overall picture of the cataclysmic events which accompany the DOTL is growing. From this basic description that Isaiah gives us we can link with and identify other scripture associated with the DOTL.
Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Here is the first use of the phrase DOTL by Joel. He describes it as a destruction from the Almighty. Sounds like what Isaiah was talking about.
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
A dark day sounds like it would fit a stellar blackout.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
There we go sun/moon/stars dark just like Isaiah's account.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
1) The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light
2) The sun shall be darkened
3) The moon shall not cause her light to shine
4) God will shake the heavens
5) Remove the earth out of her place
6) All the host of heaven dissolved
7) Heavens rolled together as a scroll
8) Host fall down as leaf from tree/ fig from fig tree
9) Moon into blood
10) The sun/moon/stars are darkened before the DOTL
Joel uses "into blood" rather than "dark" for the moon in 2:31 which tells us these two terms may both be used in describing this event. Joel also gives us a very important piece of information. The cosmic signs (sun/moon/stars dark) occur "before" the DOTL. So there will be some unmistakable events that occur just before the DOTL. The earth will be plunged into darkness leading up to the DOTL.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
1) The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light
2) The sun shall be darkened
3) The moon shall not cause her light to shine
4) God will shake the heavens
5) Remove the earth out of her place
6) All the host of heaven dissolved
7) Heavens rolled together as a scroll
8) Host fall down as leaf from tree/ fig from fig tree
9) Moon into blood
10) The sun/moon/stars are darkened before the DOTL
11) Lord roar out of Zion
12) Utter His voice from Jerusalem
13) Heavens and earth shake
14) God the hope and strength of Israel
15) God dwelling in Zion
Joel 3 gives us a bunch of new info for our list concerning the actions of God at that time. So at the time the sinners are subject to wrath we have the cosmic signs, DOTL, and God dwelling in Zion. I will stop there for now and continue the next post with Amos, Obadiah, and the rest...
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:01 am
What a great post- thanks Seeker!
(Edited to add: I mistakenly thought this was the pre-trib forum- but still appreciate the post- and will let my observations say what they will, however I will not debate the rapture timing as this is the post trib forum. Sorry about that.)
Let me add the following observations:
Here's some NT verses about the Day of the Lord:
The day of the Lord comes like a thief to those in darkness when they are saying "peace and safety", but not to those who are sons of light who are sober and alert. Who are not destined for wrath but for salvation.
The day of the Lord will follow apostasy and the day when the lawless one or the Antichrist is revealed in other words the abomination of desolation when he takes his seat in the temple as God. Paul also says that the restrainer must be removed in order for the lawless one to be revealed. So the order of events is apostasy, restrainer removed,revealing of lawless one- abomination of desolation. Day of the Lord-
(Though it is possible that the apostasy could follow the removal of the restrainer.)
Peter seems to indicate that the Day of the Lord is like 1000 years. He too says it comes like a thief. In it the current heaven and earth will be consumed in fire.
Believers will be blameless in the day of the Lord. He also ties it to the revelation of Jesus our Lord. (His second coming or visible return to earth) Which IMO is the starting point of the day of the Lord which comes like a thief, as the gospels say- in the parables how Jesus will come like a thief to those who are in darkness, who are not ready. The day of the Lord is the Millennial reign.
RT
(Edited to add: I mistakenly thought this was the pre-trib forum- but still appreciate the post- and will let my observations say what they will, however I will not debate the rapture timing as this is the post trib forum. Sorry about that.)
Let me add the following observations:
Here's some NT verses about the Day of the Lord:
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
The day of the Lord comes like a thief to those in darkness when they are saying "peace and safety", but not to those who are sons of light who are sober and alert. Who are not destined for wrath but for salvation.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
The day of the Lord will follow apostasy and the day when the lawless one or the Antichrist is revealed in other words the abomination of desolation when he takes his seat in the temple as God. Paul also says that the restrainer must be removed in order for the lawless one to be revealed. So the order of events is apostasy, restrainer removed,revealing of lawless one- abomination of desolation. Day of the Lord-
(Though it is possible that the apostasy could follow the removal of the restrainer.)
2 Peter 3:8-12
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
Peter seems to indicate that the Day of the Lord is like 1000 years. He too says it comes like a thief. In it the current heaven and earth will be consumed in fire.
1 Corinthians 1:4-8
4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus,
5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge,
6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Believers will be blameless in the day of the Lord. He also ties it to the revelation of Jesus our Lord. (His second coming or visible return to earth) Which IMO is the starting point of the day of the Lord which comes like a thief, as the gospels say- in the parables how Jesus will come like a thief to those who are in darkness, who are not ready. The day of the Lord is the Millennial reign.
RT
- Resurrection Torchlight
- Posts: 4098
- Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mrs. B on Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:03 am
Understanding the "Day of the Lord"
RT wrote.........
The day of the Lord will follow apostasy and the day when the lawless one or the Antichrist is revealed in other words the abomination of desolation when he takes his seat in the temple as God. Paul also says that the restrainer must be removed in order for the lawless one to be revealed. So the order of events is apostasy, restrainer removed,revealing of lawless one- abomination of desolation. Day of the Lord-
(Though it is possible that the apostasy could follow the removal of the restrainer.
......................................................
There has to be a falling away.....before the a/c can take over....
The Church is the Body of Christ....We are the Temple of the Lord....not made with hands...
When the Apostity comes...or it is already here....this opens the door for the Antichrist spirit to take over...
Jesus said...Deceiveing and being deceivied...
Satan is Restrained by the Truth, the Body of Christ Walks in Truth.....we are the restrainer
But when the Church falls away from the Truth....this opens the door for the A/c to take over
to seat himself in the body of Christ.
This is why.......Many will go through the fire.....to be purified....and to be made white...
The wise will be ready.....while the foolish will be left.....the door is shut
That is why God is Calling out His People.......Come out from among her (the false) and be ye saperate saith the Lord.
God is calling out His People right now.......Come Out....
Very Good Post......all should read it...
We are in the world.....but not of this world...
Mrs. B
RT wrote.........
The day of the Lord will follow apostasy and the day when the lawless one or the Antichrist is revealed in other words the abomination of desolation when he takes his seat in the temple as God. Paul also says that the restrainer must be removed in order for the lawless one to be revealed. So the order of events is apostasy, restrainer removed,revealing of lawless one- abomination of desolation. Day of the Lord-
(Though it is possible that the apostasy could follow the removal of the restrainer.
......................................................
There has to be a falling away.....before the a/c can take over....
The Church is the Body of Christ....We are the Temple of the Lord....not made with hands...
When the Apostity comes...or it is already here....this opens the door for the Antichrist spirit to take over...
Jesus said...Deceiveing and being deceivied...
Satan is Restrained by the Truth, the Body of Christ Walks in Truth.....we are the restrainer
But when the Church falls away from the Truth....this opens the door for the A/c to take over
to seat himself in the body of Christ.
This is why.......Many will go through the fire.....to be purified....and to be made white...
The wise will be ready.....while the foolish will be left.....the door is shut
That is why God is Calling out His People.......Come out from among her (the false) and be ye saperate saith the Lord.
God is calling out His People right now.......Come Out....
Very Good Post......all should read it...
We are in the world.....but not of this world...
Mrs. B
Last edited by Mrs. B on Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Mrs. B
- Posts: 2062
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:25 pm
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amo 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Amos describes the day of the Lord as a day of darkness with no brightness in it. Not a day of light. A man flees from a lion only to run into a bear. Not a good day at all. The darkness description matches what we should expect on a day that the sun/moon/stars have all been darkened. What we see in the bible is a consistant presentation of the day of the Lord amongst the various prophets. The DOTL is a day of judgment for the sinners as Amos 5:19 shows. We see that in Obadiah as well.
Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Oba 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Oba 1:17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
This is when God executes vengence upon the heathen for the way they treated Israel. Edom/Jordan is in view here in Oba 1.
Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Zep 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zep 1:9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
Zep 1:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
Zep 1:11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
Zep 1:13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Zephaniah gives us much information regarding the day of the Lord. He combines the punishment of the sinners with the cataclysmic descriptions of the DOTL. A day of wrath, of trouble/distress, wasteness/desolation, darkness/gloominess, clouds of thick darkness. This accompanies the punishing of the princes. So here we get a good overview of the bigger picture. All these details that we are gathering begin to sharpen our view of the DOTL. The main theme is the destruction of sinners but we also get the physical descriptions of the heavens as well. The cosmic events accompany the destruction of the sinners so when we see either of these two events the other is near.
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Like Joel described, here we see an army attacking Israel near the time of the DOTL.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Next we see the Lord fighting against that army and His feet stand on the mount of Olives in that day. That is an obvious reference to Christ thus we can connect Jesus to the defeat of the armies gathered against Jerusalem in Zechariah and Joel because they both speak of the same DOTL. Now we can see that it is Jesus who personally defeats the armies arrayed against Jerusalem. So Jesus has a major role in the OT DOTL. He defeats the armies arrayed against Israel. Can we verify this? Of course from the NT.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Armageddon is simply the OT day of the Lord. When we understand that everything fits neatly in place as we continue to study the DOTL.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Peter ties the two together for us quite nicely. He first speaks of the promise Jesus made to return and then associates it with the DOTL with the heavens passing away (cosmic signs) and elements melting with fervent heat.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Here in 1Th Paul connects the two as well. Jesus descending from heaven and then he refers to the DOTL coming as a thief in the night. The cosmic signs, the DOTL, and the return of Jesus are all the same set of events.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The cosmic signs accompany the wrath of God and the return of Jesus.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
And this takes us back around to the beginning.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Only now we know that it is Jesus at His second coming who destroys the sinners out of the land here in Isaiah 13.
Peace,
Seeker
Amo 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Amos describes the day of the Lord as a day of darkness with no brightness in it. Not a day of light. A man flees from a lion only to run into a bear. Not a good day at all. The darkness description matches what we should expect on a day that the sun/moon/stars have all been darkened. What we see in the bible is a consistant presentation of the day of the Lord amongst the various prophets. The DOTL is a day of judgment for the sinners as Amos 5:19 shows. We see that in Obadiah as well.
Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Oba 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Oba 1:17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
This is when God executes vengence upon the heathen for the way they treated Israel. Edom/Jordan is in view here in Oba 1.
Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Zep 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zep 1:9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
Zep 1:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
Zep 1:11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
Zep 1:13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Zephaniah gives us much information regarding the day of the Lord. He combines the punishment of the sinners with the cataclysmic descriptions of the DOTL. A day of wrath, of trouble/distress, wasteness/desolation, darkness/gloominess, clouds of thick darkness. This accompanies the punishing of the princes. So here we get a good overview of the bigger picture. All these details that we are gathering begin to sharpen our view of the DOTL. The main theme is the destruction of sinners but we also get the physical descriptions of the heavens as well. The cosmic events accompany the destruction of the sinners so when we see either of these two events the other is near.
Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Like Joel described, here we see an army attacking Israel near the time of the DOTL.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Next we see the Lord fighting against that army and His feet stand on the mount of Olives in that day. That is an obvious reference to Christ thus we can connect Jesus to the defeat of the armies gathered against Jerusalem in Zechariah and Joel because they both speak of the same DOTL. Now we can see that it is Jesus who personally defeats the armies arrayed against Jerusalem. So Jesus has a major role in the OT DOTL. He defeats the armies arrayed against Israel. Can we verify this? Of course from the NT.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Armageddon is simply the OT day of the Lord. When we understand that everything fits neatly in place as we continue to study the DOTL.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Peter ties the two together for us quite nicely. He first speaks of the promise Jesus made to return and then associates it with the DOTL with the heavens passing away (cosmic signs) and elements melting with fervent heat.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Here in 1Th Paul connects the two as well. Jesus descending from heaven and then he refers to the DOTL coming as a thief in the night. The cosmic signs, the DOTL, and the return of Jesus are all the same set of events.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
The cosmic signs accompany the wrath of God and the return of Jesus.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
And this takes us back around to the beginning.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Only now we know that it is Jesus at His second coming who destroys the sinners out of the land here in Isaiah 13.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:31 pm
Hi Resurrection Torchlight,
Thanks and you are welcome to express your thoughts here or in the post-wrath thread if you want to discuss rapture timing. No need for being sorry I don't mind.
Precisely but you will notice that both groups are present together the day that overtakes those saying peace and safety. "But you, brethren, are not in darkness that the day would overtake you as a thief". Since they are watching and sober the day does not overtake them as a thief. Let us not sleep as others do but be alert and sober. They are warned to be about their Fathers business when Jesus arrives as a thief to the sinners. Both groups are together on the day that sudden destruction comes upon the sinners.
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Two groups in the field when the Jesus arrives; one taken, the other left. Two at the mill one taken the other left. Two groups at the flood of Noah; one taken, one left. They are instructed to be about the Fathers' business or risk being cut asunder and appointed their portion with the hypocrites; weeping and gnashing of teeth. The ones found doing the will of the Father when Jesus arrives are not appointed to wrath while the others are appointed to wrath at the very same time. See there is an actual day that Jesus returns and destroys the sinners. A dark and terrible day when the sinners are removed out of the land. There is a specific day that the armies of the earth gather in Jerusalem and Jesus returns to destroy them and all things that offend. On that day we are to be about the Fathers business or risk joining the group of sinners being destroyed.
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Who are these scoffers challenging here? They would be challenging Christians again indicating two groups present here in this conversation. Where is the promise of the return of Christ is what they are asking. So we can be sure at this point Jesus hasn't yet returned to earth. There has been no rapture at this point.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Peter references Noahs flood just as Matthew 24 does. They are willingly ignorant of the flood when evil persished from the face of the earth.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Peter directly contrasts the flood with the day of judgment of ungodly men by fire.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Peter is answering the challenge presented by the scoffers. These scoffers exist in the "last days". We know from our perspective that these "last days" are future yet some 2,000 years after Peter wrote those words. Peter tells them the Lord is not delaying but rather waiting as long as possible so that all could come to repentance. The day as 1,000 years seems more to relate to the long patience of the Lord. Sitting from our perspective it has been a long long time (2,000 years) while to the eternity of God a mere 2 days have passed. So really I think Peter is talking to the last days group here explaining why it has been 2,000 years and no Jesus.
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Two groups five taken five left. Watch therefore because you don't know the day or the hour that Jesus returns. In all these scripture examples there are two groups when the Lord returns as a thief. The ones not watching are destroyed at His return leaving only those watching to inherit the kingdom. The ones watching witness the destruction of those not watching on the "day" Jesus returns or as the OT calls it the Day of the Lord.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
This destruction doesn't last through the millennium it occurs at Armageddon and is pretty instantaneous.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Jesus comes as a thief just before Armageddon. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments (about the Fathers business). At Armageddon the AC and all evil is destroyed leaving those who have kept their garments to inherit the kingdom. Armageddon is a specific day that Israel is invaded and God defeats that invasion force.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Not much of a battle here at the DOTL. So rather than 1,000 year DOTL I think it is actually the "day" Jesus returns to remove the sinners and rapture the saints...in that order...
Peace,
Seeker
What a great post- thanks Seeker!
(Edited to add: I mistakenly thought this was the pre-trib forum- but still appreciate the post- and will let my observations say what they will, however I will not debate the rapture timing as this is the post trib forum. Sorry about that.)
Thanks and you are welcome to express your thoughts here or in the post-wrath thread if you want to discuss rapture timing. No need for being sorry I don't mind.
Here's some NT verses about the Day of the Lord:
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
The day of the Lord comes like a thief to those in darkness when they are saying "peace and safety", but not to those who are sons of light who are sober and alert. Who are not destined for wrath but for salvation.
Precisely but you will notice that both groups are present together the day that overtakes those saying peace and safety. "But you, brethren, are not in darkness that the day would overtake you as a thief". Since they are watching and sober the day does not overtake them as a thief. Let us not sleep as others do but be alert and sober. They are warned to be about their Fathers business when Jesus arrives as a thief to the sinners. Both groups are together on the day that sudden destruction comes upon the sinners.
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Two groups in the field when the Jesus arrives; one taken, the other left. Two at the mill one taken the other left. Two groups at the flood of Noah; one taken, one left. They are instructed to be about the Fathers' business or risk being cut asunder and appointed their portion with the hypocrites; weeping and gnashing of teeth. The ones found doing the will of the Father when Jesus arrives are not appointed to wrath while the others are appointed to wrath at the very same time. See there is an actual day that Jesus returns and destroys the sinners. A dark and terrible day when the sinners are removed out of the land. There is a specific day that the armies of the earth gather in Jerusalem and Jesus returns to destroy them and all things that offend. On that day we are to be about the Fathers business or risk joining the group of sinners being destroyed.
Peter seems to indicate that the Day of the Lord is like 1000 years. He too says it comes like a thief. In it the current heaven and earth will be consumed in fire.
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Who are these scoffers challenging here? They would be challenging Christians again indicating two groups present here in this conversation. Where is the promise of the return of Christ is what they are asking. So we can be sure at this point Jesus hasn't yet returned to earth. There has been no rapture at this point.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
Peter references Noahs flood just as Matthew 24 does. They are willingly ignorant of the flood when evil persished from the face of the earth.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Peter directly contrasts the flood with the day of judgment of ungodly men by fire.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Peter is answering the challenge presented by the scoffers. These scoffers exist in the "last days". We know from our perspective that these "last days" are future yet some 2,000 years after Peter wrote those words. Peter tells them the Lord is not delaying but rather waiting as long as possible so that all could come to repentance. The day as 1,000 years seems more to relate to the long patience of the Lord. Sitting from our perspective it has been a long long time (2,000 years) while to the eternity of God a mere 2 days have passed. So really I think Peter is talking to the last days group here explaining why it has been 2,000 years and no Jesus.
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Two groups five taken five left. Watch therefore because you don't know the day or the hour that Jesus returns. In all these scripture examples there are two groups when the Lord returns as a thief. The ones not watching are destroyed at His return leaving only those watching to inherit the kingdom. The ones watching witness the destruction of those not watching on the "day" Jesus returns or as the OT calls it the Day of the Lord.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
This destruction doesn't last through the millennium it occurs at Armageddon and is pretty instantaneous.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Jesus comes as a thief just before Armageddon. Blessed is he who watches and keeps his garments (about the Fathers business). At Armageddon the AC and all evil is destroyed leaving those who have kept their garments to inherit the kingdom. Armageddon is a specific day that Israel is invaded and God defeats that invasion force.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Not much of a battle here at the DOTL. So rather than 1,000 year DOTL I think it is actually the "day" Jesus returns to remove the sinners and rapture the saints...in that order...
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
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- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mrs. B on Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:09 pm
Understanding the day of the Lord.....
The day of the Lord is when Jesus Returns.....
I Corin. 16:50.....NOW this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God....
Neither doth corruption inherit incorruption....
51....BEHOLD...I shew you a MYSTERY
WE shall not all Sleep.......... But We shall ALL BE CHANGED..
52...IN A Moment, in the Twinkling of an eye,
AT THE LAST TRUMP....for the Trump shall sound,
And the Dead shall be raised Incorruptible,
AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED....
53....For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this Mortal must put on immoritality...
54....So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be Brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is Swallowed up in Victory...
55...O Death, where is thy sting?
O Grave, where is thy Victory?
WHERE IS A RAPTURE before the ressurrection?.....THEN THE RESSURRECTION??? After the Rapture?
They are the Same........The early Church looked for the Ressurrection when Jesus Returned...
Not some secret rapture......
In the moment in the Twinkle of the eye we shall all be changed.....
Those that are alive and those that are in the grave.......All at one time caught up to meet the Lord in the Air...
The Ressurrection is the Rapture.....At the Last Trump.....for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and We shall be changed.....in a moment, in the twinkle of an eye....
This is when we are caught up to meet the Lord....
56...The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57...But thanks be to God, which giveth us the Victory through Our Lord Jesus Christ...
58...Therefore, My Beloved Brethren, be ye stedfast, Unmoveable,
Always Abounding in the Work of the Lord...
Forasmuch as ye know that Your Labour is Not in Vain in the Lord.....
The Early church looked for Jesus to return......and to be caught up with him at the first Ressurrection....
51....Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY;
We shall NOT all slelep, but we shall all be changed...In a Moment, in the Twinkling of an eye,\
at the last Trump.....
Mrs. B
The day of the Lord is when Jesus Returns.....
I Corin. 16:50.....NOW this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God....
Neither doth corruption inherit incorruption....
51....BEHOLD...I shew you a MYSTERY
WE shall not all Sleep.......... But We shall ALL BE CHANGED..
52...IN A Moment, in the Twinkling of an eye,
AT THE LAST TRUMP....for the Trump shall sound,
And the Dead shall be raised Incorruptible,
AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED....
53....For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this Mortal must put on immoritality...
54....So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be Brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is Swallowed up in Victory...
55...O Death, where is thy sting?
O Grave, where is thy Victory?
WHERE IS A RAPTURE before the ressurrection?.....THEN THE RESSURRECTION??? After the Rapture?
They are the Same........The early Church looked for the Ressurrection when Jesus Returned...
Not some secret rapture......
In the moment in the Twinkle of the eye we shall all be changed.....
Those that are alive and those that are in the grave.......All at one time caught up to meet the Lord in the Air...
The Ressurrection is the Rapture.....At the Last Trump.....for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and We shall be changed.....in a moment, in the twinkle of an eye....
This is when we are caught up to meet the Lord....
56...The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57...But thanks be to God, which giveth us the Victory through Our Lord Jesus Christ...
58...Therefore, My Beloved Brethren, be ye stedfast, Unmoveable,
Always Abounding in the Work of the Lord...
Forasmuch as ye know that Your Labour is Not in Vain in the Lord.....
The Early church looked for Jesus to return......and to be caught up with him at the first Ressurrection....
51....Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY;
We shall NOT all slelep, but we shall all be changed...In a Moment, in the Twinkling of an eye,\
at the last Trump.....
Mrs. B
- Mrs. B
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:15 pm
Hi Mrs. B,
Amen to that! Peter connects them well for us.
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
No doubt Peter was talking about the promise of the second coming of Christ and Peter refers to that as the "day of the Lord".
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
And Paul links the return of Jesus to the "day of the Lord" as well. I agree totally with you on this and scripture clearly links the two.
Peace,
Seeker
The day of the Lord is when Jesus Returns.....
Amen to that! Peter connects them well for us.
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
No doubt Peter was talking about the promise of the second coming of Christ and Peter refers to that as the "day of the Lord".
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
And Paul links the return of Jesus to the "day of the Lord" as well. I agree totally with you on this and scripture clearly links the two.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by david on Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:44 pm
Seeker, very well done. This is one of my favorite subjects and one I am very exited about. I have always wanted to compile all the "Days of the Lord" for my own study, now I don't have to, you did it! I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on "Elijah's" return as compared to the two Witnesses and more about how and where they fit in.
In Joel we see it's after Jesus has set foot at the Mount of Olives....
david
In Joel we see it's after Jesus has set foot at the Mount of Olives....
david
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Abiding in His Word on Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:02 am
david wrote:Seeker, very well done.
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by jgilberAZ on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:37 am
Mostly agree with everything ... but, I struggle to determine if the days are cut short from 3.5 to something less, or, cut short to 3.5 years from something longer.
Either way works for me ... the main thing being I have come to the firm conclusion that pretrib is absolutely false. So, as long as I prepare (spiritually, emotionally) myself and my family to endure through the great tribulation (or die faithful), that's the main thing. Whether we are delivered through death, or through rapture (either within the last half of the 70th week or at the end of the 70th week), doesn't matter. As long as we enter the 70th week without expecting to have received a "get out of tribulation free" card.
Either way works for me ... the main thing being I have come to the firm conclusion that pretrib is absolutely false. So, as long as I prepare (spiritually, emotionally) myself and my family to endure through the great tribulation (or die faithful), that's the main thing. Whether we are delivered through death, or through rapture (either within the last half of the 70th week or at the end of the 70th week), doesn't matter. As long as we enter the 70th week without expecting to have received a "get out of tribulation free" card.
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
.
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
.
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jgilberAZ - Posts: 1895
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:02 pm
Hi David,
Thanks it is a favorite of mine as well. I am hesitant to assign names to the two witnesses for a variety of reasons. The main being I can't find enough scripture to back any view enough to stand with it. I will tell you though the two witnesses and the associated plagues remind me of the Egyptian plagues prior to the Exodus.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
The two witnesses prophesy for 3 1/2 years. We can know that it is the second half of the last 7 years because of when they are killed.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
They are killed sometime after the 6th trumpet and before the 7th trumpet when Jesus begins to reign over the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus begins to reign at the beginning of the millennium or end of the last 7 years. That gives us the ending time of the two witnesses ministry which tells us they prophesy during the second half of the last 7 years. The 7th trumpet marks the end of the last 7 years making trumpets 1-6 occur prior to the end of the last 7 years or during the ministry of the two witnesses.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
The 5th trumpet itself is at least 5 months so these things occur while the two witnesses are prophesying.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
It would seem to me since they are operating in the official "witness" office that they would be aware that part of the wrath of God is taking place during their 3 1/2 years. I suspect that they may even be the ones pronouncing the wrath of God via a series of plagues. The two witnesses plagues and the wrath of God occur in the same timeframe so are likely intimately connected. The seals/trumpet/vials sort of rachet up in intensity as they go. This reminds me of Moses and the increasing intensity of the plagues God pronounced upon the Egyptians via Moses. So Moses is the closest I can get to scripture support for the identity of one of the two but it is on shaky ground with a degree of speculation. As far as Elijah goes.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Elijah has to be around somewhere before the DOTL so that would be my second guess which seems to align with the transfiguration.
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
From a scripture standpoint that's the best I can come up with but still nothing solid enough to be dogmatic about.
Not sure I follow you here could you explain a bit more?
Thanks,
Seeker
Seeker, very well done. This is one of my favorite subjects and one I am very exited about. I have always wanted to compile all the "Days of the Lord" for my own study, now I don't have to, you did it! I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on "Elijah's" return as compared to the two Witnesses and more about how and where they fit in.
Thanks it is a favorite of mine as well. I am hesitant to assign names to the two witnesses for a variety of reasons. The main being I can't find enough scripture to back any view enough to stand with it. I will tell you though the two witnesses and the associated plagues remind me of the Egyptian plagues prior to the Exodus.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
The two witnesses prophesy for 3 1/2 years. We can know that it is the second half of the last 7 years because of when they are killed.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
They are killed sometime after the 6th trumpet and before the 7th trumpet when Jesus begins to reign over the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus begins to reign at the beginning of the millennium or end of the last 7 years. That gives us the ending time of the two witnesses ministry which tells us they prophesy during the second half of the last 7 years. The 7th trumpet marks the end of the last 7 years making trumpets 1-6 occur prior to the end of the last 7 years or during the ministry of the two witnesses.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
The 5th trumpet itself is at least 5 months so these things occur while the two witnesses are prophesying.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
It would seem to me since they are operating in the official "witness" office that they would be aware that part of the wrath of God is taking place during their 3 1/2 years. I suspect that they may even be the ones pronouncing the wrath of God via a series of plagues. The two witnesses plagues and the wrath of God occur in the same timeframe so are likely intimately connected. The seals/trumpet/vials sort of rachet up in intensity as they go. This reminds me of Moses and the increasing intensity of the plagues God pronounced upon the Egyptians via Moses. So Moses is the closest I can get to scripture support for the identity of one of the two but it is on shaky ground with a degree of speculation. As far as Elijah goes.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Elijah has to be around somewhere before the DOTL so that would be my second guess which seems to align with the transfiguration.
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
From a scripture standpoint that's the best I can come up with but still nothing solid enough to be dogmatic about.
In Joel we see it's after Jesus has set foot at the Mount of Olives....
Not sure I follow you here could you explain a bit more?
Thanks,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:22 pm
Hi Abiding,
Thx much appreciated.
Blessings,
Seeker
Thx much appreciated.
Blessings,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:39 pm
Hi jgilberAZ,
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The worst tribulation ever seen or that ever will be seen occurs and if those days of tribulation were not shortened then no flesh would be saved. If the tribulation were allowed to continue all flesh would be lost. We know that there is a remnant that survives the tribulation so the days have been cut short or there would be no remnant. The provisions to save the remnant are provided within the given timeframes mentioned in various prophetic passages. 3 1/2 years is mentioned many many times. There is no need to take any days away from the 3 1/2 years because the saints are given the kingdom within that time span.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
The saints are given into the hand of the AC for the last 3 1/2 years. At the expiration of the 3 1/2 years the AC's dominion is taken away and given to the saints. The saints receive the kingdom of God following the expiration of the 3 1/2 years. The very fact that there are saints around to inherit the kingdom at that time proves that the days are already cut short. Had they not been no flesh would have been saved to see the kingdom. That's my reading of the related scriptures anyway.
Peace,
Seeker
Mostly agree with everything ... but, I struggle to determine if the days are cut short from 3.5 to something less, or, cut short to 3.5 years from something longer.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The worst tribulation ever seen or that ever will be seen occurs and if those days of tribulation were not shortened then no flesh would be saved. If the tribulation were allowed to continue all flesh would be lost. We know that there is a remnant that survives the tribulation so the days have been cut short or there would be no remnant. The provisions to save the remnant are provided within the given timeframes mentioned in various prophetic passages. 3 1/2 years is mentioned many many times. There is no need to take any days away from the 3 1/2 years because the saints are given the kingdom within that time span.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
The saints are given into the hand of the AC for the last 3 1/2 years. At the expiration of the 3 1/2 years the AC's dominion is taken away and given to the saints. The saints receive the kingdom of God following the expiration of the 3 1/2 years. The very fact that there are saints around to inherit the kingdom at that time proves that the days are already cut short. Had they not been no flesh would have been saved to see the kingdom. That's my reading of the related scriptures anyway.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:53 am
Having established the connection between the DOTL and the return of Jesus we now can see a broader more complete view of the events that accompany the second coming of Christ. The world and universe as we know it will go through a drastic rearrangement leading up to and during the return of Jesus. The post-trib perspective puts us in a different frame of mind I think. Once we become aware that if these things happen in our lifetimes we will be here to witness the whole show, a certain amount of apprehension grips us all. What will it be like as we approach the final chapter of the bible? We all have ideas I am sure especially concerning the AC, AOD, and MOB. But what will it be like from the wrath of God side? All the cosmic disturbances and catastrophies. The destruction of the earth and everything in it....Sobering thoughts when we actually attempt to wrap our minds around it. Peter sets the stage for us.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The return of Jesus is not going to be a pretty day for those whose works are of the world. There works will be vaporized in fervent heat hot enough to melt the very elements. Peter describes the return of Christ as a day of fire and is basically telling them hey don't rush it on us here its not going to be a fun day.
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amos basically says the same thing here.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
The cosmic signs in both Isaiah and Joel directly link to the cosmic signs in Matthew 24 which precede the return of Christ. Jesus isn't coming skipping along on some clouds He is armed with a sword and fire to defeat the forces of evil arrayed against Him.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
This is a whole different aspect of Jesus than was manifested the first time. He comes as the King of kings to rule with a rod of iron with the first order of business being to destroy the sinners out of the land (Isa 13:9).
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
All those scriptures describe the same event thankfully. Wouldn't want all that happening everytime it is written in the bible because about all the prophets spoke of it. In fact Jesus tells us all the prophets spoke of Him.
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Many of the prophets tell the story of the DOTL adding to the detail list we can draw from for our understanding of the physical parts of the DOTL. Like it or not we will be here until the final curtain falls. I think it is probably a good idea that we start to examine the prophecies in detail so we can know what to expect in a general sense. The better we can understand what will be heading our way the better we can prepare spiritually to trust on the Lord through it. The bible is pretty clear as to the fate of this world and all in it.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Peter tells us that is the day Jesus returns.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
So as Amos warns woe to those who desire the DOTL. We will have to endure much until the end but at least when we see the cosmic signs we know His return is near. Jesus basically returns and torches the whole earth cleansing the evil from it.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
The ending is clear the very elements themselves are melted. Prior to that we will have endured through all the seals/trumpets/vials which are loaded with star falling, sun scorchin, mountain movin excitement. I will try to go through some of the cosmic events next time but wanted to set the background of the end first. Jesus returning in flaming fire taking vengence on sinners is the climax of an epic battle between good and evil that began so very long ago.
Peace,
Seeker
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
The return of Jesus is not going to be a pretty day for those whose works are of the world. There works will be vaporized in fervent heat hot enough to melt the very elements. Peter describes the return of Christ as a day of fire and is basically telling them hey don't rush it on us here its not going to be a fun day.
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amos basically says the same thing here.
Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
The cosmic signs in both Isaiah and Joel directly link to the cosmic signs in Matthew 24 which precede the return of Christ. Jesus isn't coming skipping along on some clouds He is armed with a sword and fire to defeat the forces of evil arrayed against Him.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
This is a whole different aspect of Jesus than was manifested the first time. He comes as the King of kings to rule with a rod of iron with the first order of business being to destroy the sinners out of the land (Isa 13:9).
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
All those scriptures describe the same event thankfully. Wouldn't want all that happening everytime it is written in the bible because about all the prophets spoke of it. In fact Jesus tells us all the prophets spoke of Him.
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Many of the prophets tell the story of the DOTL adding to the detail list we can draw from for our understanding of the physical parts of the DOTL. Like it or not we will be here until the final curtain falls. I think it is probably a good idea that we start to examine the prophecies in detail so we can know what to expect in a general sense. The better we can understand what will be heading our way the better we can prepare spiritually to trust on the Lord through it. The bible is pretty clear as to the fate of this world and all in it.
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Peter tells us that is the day Jesus returns.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
So as Amos warns woe to those who desire the DOTL. We will have to endure much until the end but at least when we see the cosmic signs we know His return is near. Jesus basically returns and torches the whole earth cleansing the evil from it.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
The ending is clear the very elements themselves are melted. Prior to that we will have endured through all the seals/trumpets/vials which are loaded with star falling, sun scorchin, mountain movin excitement. I will try to go through some of the cosmic events next time but wanted to set the background of the end first. Jesus returning in flaming fire taking vengence on sinners is the climax of an epic battle between good and evil that began so very long ago.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Tue May 17, 2011 11:17 am
Peter tells us the earth is reserved for a fire hot enough to melt the elements on the day of the Lord. I think that is how the earth is cleansed from all things that offend. They are returned to their basic elemental forms with no works of man surviving the fire. The earth is transformed for the millennium by the fire. This is prior to the new earth and heavens that follow the millennium. The cosmic signs, which occur just before Jesus arrives in flaming fire, are the next in line as we step backward through the sequence of events. So the cosmic signs will occur just prior to the Lord returning. We can verify this with many scripture references.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The cosmic signs are always just before God returns to earth. They are a sign that the appearance of Jesus is emminent. When you see all these things lift up your head for your redemption draws near. The last of all these things are the cosmic signs. That is when we can be sure Jesus is just around the corner on His way! It won't be such a fun time for the sinners at that point as Rev 6 shows us. I imagine the cosmic signs will be the best thing those in the tribulation have ever seen. That is because these cosmic signs occur immediately after the AC's 3 1/2 year tribulation. The cosmic signs mark the end of the great tribulation and are the last sign prior to the return of Christ. They occur just before Jesus returns in flaming fire to destroy the AC and company. The cosmic signs will be a great sigh of relief for all being persecuted and killed by the AC.
Just after the cosmic signs Jesus arrives to purge the sinners from the land. Isaiah talks about this in great detail. From Isaiah 10-19 we see sinners being punished by the Lord near the day of the Lord. The countries affected are mentioned by name and judged by the way they treated Israel. Those chapters can all be linked to the time of the wrath of God near the day of the Lord.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The heavens being rolled up as a scroll is referenced in Rev 6 with the cosmic signs. It is the only other place in the bible that the word scroll is used and the language is nearly identical in both usages of the word. So we can know that Isaiah 34 is also referring to the return of Jesus. Just after the cosmic signs we see the Lord's sword covered in blood from Bozrah.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Bozrah is one of His stops during the wrath of God or wrath of the Lamb as Rev 6 puts it. Other stops include Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Babylon and others found in Isaiah 10-19. I won't go into detail here as I just did a thread on Damascus and Isaiah 17 that proves what I say about Isaiah 10-19 it can be found at this link.
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=60580
The destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 17 occurs near the DOTL with the rest of the nations who are punished at that time. Isaiah 63 also lends support for the Lord destroying evil as His first mission upon arrival.
Isa 63:1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
Isa 63:2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
Isa 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
We see Jesus treading the winepress in other scripture.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
This sets the timing of Isaiah 63 for us and shows us that Bozrah occurs in the same timeframe as Armageddon does. Bozrah connects us to Isaiah 34 which gives us more details concerning this timeframe.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isaiah 34:4 mirrors this scripture from Rev 6 or actually the other way around since Isaiah preceded Revelation.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Heaven only rolls together as a scroll once to my knowledge so Rev 6 and Isaiah 34 are discussing the same topic. As we dig deeper into the prophets many details concerning the day of the Lord are revealed to us. Around the same time He arrives for Armageddon He is also busy taking care of Bozrah, Damascus, and many others. It is almost as if He destroys the nations as He is heading for Israel to defeat the forces arrayed against Him at Armageddon. While it isn't clear concerning the exact sequence and details it is clear that all the nations get it around the same time. All the details we piece together must somehow weave into an intricate but simple story if we are to remain true to what the scriptures say. Almost all the prophets speak of the time when Israel is attacked and saved by the Lord returning to Him forever after. It is all the same story just with different details and perspectives. As we realize this our perspective broadens significantly as the intricate details pile up from a combination of the writings of the prophets of old.
Peace,
Seeker
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The cosmic signs are always just before God returns to earth. They are a sign that the appearance of Jesus is emminent. When you see all these things lift up your head for your redemption draws near. The last of all these things are the cosmic signs. That is when we can be sure Jesus is just around the corner on His way! It won't be such a fun time for the sinners at that point as Rev 6 shows us. I imagine the cosmic signs will be the best thing those in the tribulation have ever seen. That is because these cosmic signs occur immediately after the AC's 3 1/2 year tribulation. The cosmic signs mark the end of the great tribulation and are the last sign prior to the return of Christ. They occur just before Jesus returns in flaming fire to destroy the AC and company. The cosmic signs will be a great sigh of relief for all being persecuted and killed by the AC.
Just after the cosmic signs Jesus arrives to purge the sinners from the land. Isaiah talks about this in great detail. From Isaiah 10-19 we see sinners being punished by the Lord near the day of the Lord. The countries affected are mentioned by name and judged by the way they treated Israel. Those chapters can all be linked to the time of the wrath of God near the day of the Lord.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The heavens being rolled up as a scroll is referenced in Rev 6 with the cosmic signs. It is the only other place in the bible that the word scroll is used and the language is nearly identical in both usages of the word. So we can know that Isaiah 34 is also referring to the return of Jesus. Just after the cosmic signs we see the Lord's sword covered in blood from Bozrah.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Bozrah is one of His stops during the wrath of God or wrath of the Lamb as Rev 6 puts it. Other stops include Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Babylon and others found in Isaiah 10-19. I won't go into detail here as I just did a thread on Damascus and Isaiah 17 that proves what I say about Isaiah 10-19 it can be found at this link.
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=60580
The destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 17 occurs near the DOTL with the rest of the nations who are punished at that time. Isaiah 63 also lends support for the Lord destroying evil as His first mission upon arrival.
Isa 63:1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
Isa 63:2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
Isa 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
We see Jesus treading the winepress in other scripture.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
This sets the timing of Isaiah 63 for us and shows us that Bozrah occurs in the same timeframe as Armageddon does. Bozrah connects us to Isaiah 34 which gives us more details concerning this timeframe.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isaiah 34:4 mirrors this scripture from Rev 6 or actually the other way around since Isaiah preceded Revelation.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Heaven only rolls together as a scroll once to my knowledge so Rev 6 and Isaiah 34 are discussing the same topic. As we dig deeper into the prophets many details concerning the day of the Lord are revealed to us. Around the same time He arrives for Armageddon He is also busy taking care of Bozrah, Damascus, and many others. It is almost as if He destroys the nations as He is heading for Israel to defeat the forces arrayed against Him at Armageddon. While it isn't clear concerning the exact sequence and details it is clear that all the nations get it around the same time. All the details we piece together must somehow weave into an intricate but simple story if we are to remain true to what the scriptures say. Almost all the prophets speak of the time when Israel is attacked and saved by the Lord returning to Him forever after. It is all the same story just with different details and perspectives. As we realize this our perspective broadens significantly as the intricate details pile up from a combination of the writings of the prophets of old.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mrs. B on Wed May 18, 2011 8:29 am
Understanding the "day of the Lord".....
The Two witnesses........
The Jews, or Israel were the Witness before Jesus....... and the Church is the Witness after Jesus....
These are the Two Witnesses......
Zech 4:2....And said unto me, What seest thou?
And I said, I have looked and behold...A Candlestick...All of Gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and His Seven Lamps there on, and Seven pipes to the Seven lamps, which are upon the Top thereof.....
The Candlestick is the seven Churches....
Rev. 1:20.....The Mystery of the Seven Stars which thou sawest in my right hand...and the SEVEN GOLDEN CANDLESTICKS......
The Seven Stars are the Angels of the Seven Churches;
and the Seven Candlesticks which thou sawest are the Seven Churches...
Jesus is the Light of the World.....Jesus lives in the believer....we the church, we are the Light of the World..Christ in you...We are to give Light to the World.....we are the Witnesses to the World..
Zech 4:3......And the Two Olive Trees by it...One upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof...
4...So I answered and spake to the angel tht talked with me, saying, WHAT ARE THESE, MY LORD?
5.....tHEN THE aNGEL THAT TALKED WITH ME ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO ME, kNOWEST THOU NOT WHAT THESE BE? aND I SAID, nO, mY lORD.
6...Then he answered and spake unto me saying...
THIS IS THE WORD OF THE LORD UNTO ZERUBBABEL, SAYING....NOT BY MIGHT, NOR BY POWER, BUT BY MY SPIRIT, SAITH THE LORD OF HOSTS.....
Jesus is a decident of Zerubbabel.......Zerubbabel in in the Lineage of Jesus.....This is a foretelling of Jesus...
7....Who art thou, O great Mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain:
and he shall bring forth the Headstone thereof with shouting, crying Grace, Grace unto it......
This is a foretelling of Jesus.....
9....The hands of Zerubbabel (Jesus) have laid the foundation of this HOUSE (the church); His hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of Host hath sent me unto you...
10....For who hath despised the day of SMALL Things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see THE PLUMMET IN THE HAND OF ZERUBBABEL with those Seven: They are the Eyes of the Lord, which Run to and Fro through the Whole Earth......
The Plummet or plum line...straight and narrow Jesus the Word.
The seven.....the seven is the seven churches....the light, the witness,We are the eyes of the Lord going to and fro through the earth...Jesus said....What ever you loose, shall be loose, In My Name and what ever you bind, shall be bound...
Jesus has given the Church Power to Bind satan and to loose the power of Satan on this earth.....we are the eyes and the ears of the Lord.....here on this earth....Jesus has given the Power to the Church to bind satan and His Power...
But we have Fallen...
We are not fulfilling our ministery to cast satan out...
Mrs. B
The Two witnesses........
The Jews, or Israel were the Witness before Jesus....... and the Church is the Witness after Jesus....
These are the Two Witnesses......
Zech 4:2....And said unto me, What seest thou?
And I said, I have looked and behold...A Candlestick...All of Gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and His Seven Lamps there on, and Seven pipes to the Seven lamps, which are upon the Top thereof.....
The Candlestick is the seven Churches....
Rev. 1:20.....The Mystery of the Seven Stars which thou sawest in my right hand...and the SEVEN GOLDEN CANDLESTICKS......
The Seven Stars are the Angels of the Seven Churches;
and the Seven Candlesticks which thou sawest are the Seven Churches...
Jesus is the Light of the World.....Jesus lives in the believer....we the church, we are the Light of the World..Christ in you...We are to give Light to the World.....we are the Witnesses to the World..
Zech 4:3......And the Two Olive Trees by it...One upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof...
4...So I answered and spake to the angel tht talked with me, saying, WHAT ARE THESE, MY LORD?
5.....tHEN THE aNGEL THAT TALKED WITH ME ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO ME, kNOWEST THOU NOT WHAT THESE BE? aND I SAID, nO, mY lORD.
6...Then he answered and spake unto me saying...
THIS IS THE WORD OF THE LORD UNTO ZERUBBABEL, SAYING....NOT BY MIGHT, NOR BY POWER, BUT BY MY SPIRIT, SAITH THE LORD OF HOSTS.....
Jesus is a decident of Zerubbabel.......Zerubbabel in in the Lineage of Jesus.....This is a foretelling of Jesus...
7....Who art thou, O great Mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain:
and he shall bring forth the Headstone thereof with shouting, crying Grace, Grace unto it......
This is a foretelling of Jesus.....
9....The hands of Zerubbabel (Jesus) have laid the foundation of this HOUSE (the church); His hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of Host hath sent me unto you...
10....For who hath despised the day of SMALL Things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see THE PLUMMET IN THE HAND OF ZERUBBABEL with those Seven: They are the Eyes of the Lord, which Run to and Fro through the Whole Earth......
The Plummet or plum line...straight and narrow Jesus the Word.
The seven.....the seven is the seven churches....the light, the witness,We are the eyes of the Lord going to and fro through the earth...Jesus said....What ever you loose, shall be loose, In My Name and what ever you bind, shall be bound...
Jesus has given the Church Power to Bind satan and to loose the power of Satan on this earth.....we are the eyes and the ears of the Lord.....here on this earth....Jesus has given the Power to the Church to bind satan and His Power...
But we have Fallen...
We are not fulfilling our ministery to cast satan out...
Mrs. B
- Mrs. B
- Posts: 2062
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mrs. B on Wed May 18, 2011 8:51 am
Understanding the "day of the Lord"
Zech 4:10.....For who hath despised the day of small things?
for they shall rejoice, and shall see the Plummet in the Hand of Zerubbabel with those Seven...
those seven....The Seven Churches....the Seven Candlestick...the light of the world Jesus as the Head
10b....They are the Eyes of the Lord, Which run to and fro through the whole Earth...
11....Then answered I, and said unto Him....What are these Two Olive Trees upon the right side of the Candlestick and upon the left side thereof?????
12....And I answered again and said unto him, What be these Two Olive Branches which through the two golden pipes Empty the Golden Oil Out of Themselves?
13...And he answere me and said, Knowest thou Not What these Be? And I said, No My Lord....
14....Then Said He, These are the TWO ANOINTED ONES, That stand by the Lord of the Whole Earth.....
Zech 3:7....Thus saith the Lord of hosts;
If thou wilt walk in My Ways, and if thou wilt Keep My Charge, then thou shalt also...JUDGE MY HOUSE
and shalt also keep My Courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by...
8...Hear Now, O Joshua the High Priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee:
for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth My Servant The BRANCH....(Jesus is the Branch)
9...For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshus; upon One stone shall be seven eyes, behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of Hosts, and I will remove the Iniquity of that land in One day.....
this is when Jesus died for the sins of the world...
10...In that day, saith the Lord of Hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree...
THIS IS THE WTNESS......THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL The Gospel......
The Jews cruxified Him and the church is to bare witness to truth.....and the gospel is to go out to every man.......all the world.....
The world will be without excuse.....Jesus fulfilled His ministery.....paid our sin debt ....and we are His witness....
The world will be without excuse...
The Jew and Christian are to bare witness to the World......We are the Light of the World...
Mrs. B
Zech 4:10.....For who hath despised the day of small things?
for they shall rejoice, and shall see the Plummet in the Hand of Zerubbabel with those Seven...
those seven....The Seven Churches....the Seven Candlestick...the light of the world Jesus as the Head
10b....They are the Eyes of the Lord, Which run to and fro through the whole Earth...
11....Then answered I, and said unto Him....What are these Two Olive Trees upon the right side of the Candlestick and upon the left side thereof?????
12....And I answered again and said unto him, What be these Two Olive Branches which through the two golden pipes Empty the Golden Oil Out of Themselves?
13...And he answere me and said, Knowest thou Not What these Be? And I said, No My Lord....
14....Then Said He, These are the TWO ANOINTED ONES, That stand by the Lord of the Whole Earth.....
Zech 3:7....Thus saith the Lord of hosts;
If thou wilt walk in My Ways, and if thou wilt Keep My Charge, then thou shalt also...JUDGE MY HOUSE
and shalt also keep My Courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by...
8...Hear Now, O Joshua the High Priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee:
for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth My Servant The BRANCH....(Jesus is the Branch)
9...For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshus; upon One stone shall be seven eyes, behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of Hosts, and I will remove the Iniquity of that land in One day.....
this is when Jesus died for the sins of the world...
10...In that day, saith the Lord of Hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree...
THIS IS THE WTNESS......THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL The Gospel......
The Jews cruxified Him and the church is to bare witness to truth.....and the gospel is to go out to every man.......all the world.....
The world will be without excuse.....Jesus fulfilled His ministery.....paid our sin debt ....and we are His witness....
The world will be without excuse...
The Jew and Christian are to bare witness to the World......We are the Light of the World...
Mrs. B
- Mrs. B
- Posts: 2062
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mrs. B on Thu May 19, 2011 7:27 am
Re: Understanding the "day of the Lord".....
Don't throw this out.......
The Seven Churches......are the Seven Candlesticks.....
They are the eyes of the the Lord that run to and fro through all the earth....
Jesus has given Power to the Church the Believers......Power over all the power of the enemy....
Zech 4:10.....For who hath despised the day of small things?
for they shall rejoice, and shall see the Plummet in the Hand of Zerubbabel with those Seven...
those seven....The Seven Churches....the Seven Candlestick...the light of the world Jesus as the Head
10b....They are the Eyes of the Lord, Which run to and fro through the whole Earth...
11....Then answered I, and said unto Him....What are these Two Olive Trees upon the right side of the Candlestick and upon the left side thereof?????
12....And I answered again and said unto him, What be these Two Olive Branches which through the two golden pipes Empty the Golden Oil Out of Themselves?
13...And he answere me and said, Knowest thou Not What these Be? And I said, No My Lord....
14....Then Said He, These are the TWO ANOINTED ONES, That stand by the Lord of the Whole Earth.....
Zech 3:7....Thus saith the Lord of hosts;
If thou wilt walk in My Ways, and if thou wilt Keep My Charge, then thou shalt also...JUDGE MY HOUSE
and shalt also keep My Courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by...
8...Hear Now, O Joshua the High Priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee:
for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth My Servant The BRANCH....(Jesus is the Branch)
9...For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshus; upon One stone shall be seven eyes, behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of Hosts, and I will remove the Iniquity of that land in One day.....
this is when Jesus died for the sins of the world...
10...In that day, saith the Lord of Hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree...
Go into all the World and Preach this Gospel......this
The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom.....Jesus taught...You Must be Born Again....Born of the Spirit...
Except a Man is Born again...he can not see the Kingdom of god....Marvel not that I say unto You You must be Born Again......not of the Flesh.....but of the Spirit....
The New Birth is Necessary to see the Kingdom of God.....Marvel not that I say.....Ye Must Be Born Again.....
Not by Might, nor by Power....but By My Spirit saith the Lord.......The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom....
and the born of God will rule and reign with Jesus...on this earth for a thousand years.....
Mrs. B
Don't throw this out.......
The Seven Churches......are the Seven Candlesticks.....
They are the eyes of the the Lord that run to and fro through all the earth....
Jesus has given Power to the Church the Believers......Power over all the power of the enemy....
Zech 4:10.....For who hath despised the day of small things?
for they shall rejoice, and shall see the Plummet in the Hand of Zerubbabel with those Seven...
those seven....The Seven Churches....the Seven Candlestick...the light of the world Jesus as the Head
10b....They are the Eyes of the Lord, Which run to and fro through the whole Earth...
11....Then answered I, and said unto Him....What are these Two Olive Trees upon the right side of the Candlestick and upon the left side thereof?????
12....And I answered again and said unto him, What be these Two Olive Branches which through the two golden pipes Empty the Golden Oil Out of Themselves?
13...And he answere me and said, Knowest thou Not What these Be? And I said, No My Lord....
14....Then Said He, These are the TWO ANOINTED ONES, That stand by the Lord of the Whole Earth.....
Zech 3:7....Thus saith the Lord of hosts;
If thou wilt walk in My Ways, and if thou wilt Keep My Charge, then thou shalt also...JUDGE MY HOUSE
and shalt also keep My Courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by...
8...Hear Now, O Joshua the High Priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee:
for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth My Servant The BRANCH....(Jesus is the Branch)
9...For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshus; upon One stone shall be seven eyes, behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of Hosts, and I will remove the Iniquity of that land in One day.....
this is when Jesus died for the sins of the world...
10...In that day, saith the Lord of Hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree...
Go into all the World and Preach this Gospel......this
The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom.....Jesus taught...You Must be Born Again....Born of the Spirit...
Except a Man is Born again...he can not see the Kingdom of god....Marvel not that I say unto You You must be Born Again......not of the Flesh.....but of the Spirit....
The New Birth is Necessary to see the Kingdom of God.....Marvel not that I say.....Ye Must Be Born Again.....
Not by Might, nor by Power....but By My Spirit saith the Lord.......The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom....
and the born of God will rule and reign with Jesus...on this earth for a thousand years.....
Mrs. B
- Mrs. B
- Posts: 2062
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Thu May 26, 2011 11:43 am
Many prophets wrote about the day of the Lord. Isaiah has references scattered throughout the book of Isaiah. It is hard to connect and combine all these fragments of the story and weave them into a comprehensive understanding. There is one prophet though that summarizes the story in a matter of 3 chapters. The prophet Zephaniah says more in less space than anywhere else as far as getting a good overview of the day of the Lord.
Zep 1:1 The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah.
Zep 1:2 I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.
Zep 1:3 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.
Zephaniah wastes no time in getting to the point of the matter. God says He will utterly consume all things from the land. No beating around the bush there.
Zep 1:4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
Zep 1:5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
Zep 1:6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him.
Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Zep 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zephaniah then connects that consumption to the day of the Lord. As we see over and over in prophet after prophet, the purpose of the day of the Lord is to cleanse the earth of sinners.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
This is quite obviously God's wrath against sinners portrayed here. For He shall make a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. Zephaniah lays it out simple and to the point.
Zep 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
Zep 2:2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.
Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Here, by the way, is how we survive the wrath of God in Zephaniah, Zechariah, and Isaiah. Just as Noah, Lot, and the Jews in Egypt were safe and sound throughout the wrath of their times, we too will be protected as the wrath rains down around us.
Zep 3:6 I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.
Zep 3:7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.
Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
God has planned to gather the nations to Armageddon so that He may destroy them in His indignation. That is the whole purpose of Armageddon. He sends spirits working miracles to gather them to Armageddon. He puts hooks in the jaw of Gog to drag him to Armageddon. It is God's determination to do these things and that is what the day of the Lord is really about. Jesus returns to deliver the wrath of God.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Jesus was found worthy to open the book and it was given to Him and He delivers the book in Rev 6:16-17. The whole purpose of the day of the Lord is for Jesus to deliver the wrath to the nations and then gather we who are still alive and remain. So if you are looking for a crash course in the DOTL I would suggest spending some time in Zephaniah as it is all laid out there in a brief format.
Peace,
Seeker
Zep 1:1 The word of the LORD which came unto Zephaniah the son of Cushi, the son of Gedaliah, the son of Amariah, the son of Hizkiah, in the days of Josiah the son of Amon, king of Judah.
Zep 1:2 I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.
Zep 1:3 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.
Zephaniah wastes no time in getting to the point of the matter. God says He will utterly consume all things from the land. No beating around the bush there.
Zep 1:4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
Zep 1:5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
Zep 1:6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him.
Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Zep 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zephaniah then connects that consumption to the day of the Lord. As we see over and over in prophet after prophet, the purpose of the day of the Lord is to cleanse the earth of sinners.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
This is quite obviously God's wrath against sinners portrayed here. For He shall make a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land. Zephaniah lays it out simple and to the point.
Zep 2:1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
Zep 2:2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you.
Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Here, by the way, is how we survive the wrath of God in Zephaniah, Zechariah, and Isaiah. Just as Noah, Lot, and the Jews in Egypt were safe and sound throughout the wrath of their times, we too will be protected as the wrath rains down around us.
Zep 3:6 I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.
Zep 3:7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.
Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
God has planned to gather the nations to Armageddon so that He may destroy them in His indignation. That is the whole purpose of Armageddon. He sends spirits working miracles to gather them to Armageddon. He puts hooks in the jaw of Gog to drag him to Armageddon. It is God's determination to do these things and that is what the day of the Lord is really about. Jesus returns to deliver the wrath of God.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Jesus was found worthy to open the book and it was given to Him and He delivers the book in Rev 6:16-17. The whole purpose of the day of the Lord is for Jesus to deliver the wrath to the nations and then gather we who are still alive and remain. So if you are looking for a crash course in the DOTL I would suggest spending some time in Zephaniah as it is all laid out there in a brief format.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
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- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Sat May 28, 2011 6:36 am
The return of Jesus is written of throughout the bible as we have been studying. Having established that the OT DOTL and the return of Christ is one and the same, now we can look into some of the details involved with the return of Christ. One of the primary missions of Jesus upon His return is to rid the land of sinners. Zephaniah makes it clear that it is God's determination to gather the nations for a great sacrifice. We know that great sacrifice as Armageddon. In this post we will examine this battle from the eyes of various prophets. Just as we have been building our knowledge of the DOTL we can also build our knowledge concerning the battle of Armageddon by looking at what all the different prophets have to say about this battle.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Here we see the deployment of troops in preparation for the battle. The kings of the earth are apparently convinced that they can defeat the Lord in battle. They must have lost their minds...why in the world would they believe that they could defeat the Almighty?
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Aw they are deceived by Satan and his minions. I never could understand why men would have the audacity to believe they could defeat the one who created the universe and all in it. Here in Rev 16 we see the reason. The spirits of devils working miracles lure the world leaders into this battle. All these leaders will be aligned with the AC and follow him to his doom. There will be false miracles, signs, and wonders associated with the AC, FP, and company.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The AC whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power, signs, and lying wonders. God sends those who love not the truth a strong delusion so that they believe the lie Satan is spewing.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
The false prophet also has the ability to do wonders as he calls fire down from heaven in the sight of the beast. The career of the AC is full of false signs and wonders. God sends a strong delusion which allows those who are deceived to believe the AC's lies and false miracles. That explains why and how the nations are gathered to the battle of Armageddon. It should also serve as a warning to us as to what we should expect from the AC and company. I am sure the AC will be weilding his false power for all to see as proof of his divine nature. That should make it fairly easy to positively verify the AC's identity. 2Th2:9 tells us he arrives with all power, signs, and lying wonders. We see hints of God dragging the nations to the battle in other OT versions of the story of Armageddon.
Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zep 3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.
God gathers the nations to Israel, defeats their armies, and gathers Israel back to their Lord in Israel. These are common denominators found in many stories throughout the bible. That is how we can identify it as Armageddon. At the conclusion of Armageddon Israel returns to the Lord after the Lord defeats the armies who have nearly wiped Israel off of the map. Israel can only return forever to the Lord one time so when we see that event we can know that Armageddon is over. It serves as a timestamp of sorts.
Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Here we see the heathen gathered to Israel for war.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
This battle is in association with the day of the Lord.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
The Lord roars out of Zion and utters His voice from Jerusalem. God is dwelling in Jerusalem following this battle in Israel. So again we see the nations gathered in Israel, God defeats them, and dwells in Jerusalem forever after. We also have the cosmic signs in Joel 2-3 which timestamp this event as well. The cosmic signs occur just prior to the return of Christ. Christ returns at Armageddon which matches the timing we see here in Joel 3. Joel 2 tells the same story as well.
Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Again we see God removing an army from Israel, the cosmic signs, and the Lord dwelling in Jerusalem. That is how we know that both Joel 2 & 3 discuss the same set of events. God is in the midst of Israel and His people will never be ashamed. See here again we see the classic Armageddon set-up. These have to be the same battles as the Lord returns and dwells in Jerusalem only at the end of the last 7 years. It all makes perfect sense and matches in all aspects timing and content.
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
God reigning, the nations were angry (Armageddon), reward given to the saints, and destroys those who destroy the earth (Armageddon). We always have the same core primary events.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
God gathers the nations to battle in Israel, He fights against those nations, and Jesus standing on the mount of Olives. Sounding familar? The events portrayed can only occur once but we see it repeatedly throughout the bible. The story is so important nearly every prophet writes about it.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
There are probably many more but I wanted to list several before Ezekiel 38-39 so the pattern is clearly seen before we look to Ezekiel 39.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
God drags Gog to the battle with hooks in his jaws as we see God gathering the nations to Armageddon.
Eze 38:4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
The hooks in the jaws are equivalent to the spirits of devils working miracles to gather the nations to Armageddon. God defeats the forces of Gog in Israel then gathers Israel to Himself forever after. Again the classic Armageddon set-up. Israel returns to God forever at the conclusion of the Gog war. That can only happen when God returns and dwells in Jerusalem.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
God is dwelling in Israel at the conclusion of the Gog war. Gog is who God spoke of in the prophets that we have been examining in this study. The same story is repeated over and over again because it is the most important story in the bible as it chronicles the second coming of Jesus.
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Jesus tells us all the prophets wrote about Him. Many of them wrote about the endtime invasion when He returns to defeat the enemies of Israel at Armageddon. I am pretty sure I didn't list all the accounts of Armageddon in the OT. Anyone feel free to add other accounts that you have found.
Peace,
Seeker
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Here we see the deployment of troops in preparation for the battle. The kings of the earth are apparently convinced that they can defeat the Lord in battle. They must have lost their minds...why in the world would they believe that they could defeat the Almighty?
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Aw they are deceived by Satan and his minions. I never could understand why men would have the audacity to believe they could defeat the one who created the universe and all in it. Here in Rev 16 we see the reason. The spirits of devils working miracles lure the world leaders into this battle. All these leaders will be aligned with the AC and follow him to his doom. There will be false miracles, signs, and wonders associated with the AC, FP, and company.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The AC whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power, signs, and lying wonders. God sends those who love not the truth a strong delusion so that they believe the lie Satan is spewing.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
The false prophet also has the ability to do wonders as he calls fire down from heaven in the sight of the beast. The career of the AC is full of false signs and wonders. God sends a strong delusion which allows those who are deceived to believe the AC's lies and false miracles. That explains why and how the nations are gathered to the battle of Armageddon. It should also serve as a warning to us as to what we should expect from the AC and company. I am sure the AC will be weilding his false power for all to see as proof of his divine nature. That should make it fairly easy to positively verify the AC's identity. 2Th2:9 tells us he arrives with all power, signs, and lying wonders. We see hints of God dragging the nations to the battle in other OT versions of the story of Armageddon.
Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zep 3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.
God gathers the nations to Israel, defeats their armies, and gathers Israel back to their Lord in Israel. These are common denominators found in many stories throughout the bible. That is how we can identify it as Armageddon. At the conclusion of Armageddon Israel returns to the Lord after the Lord defeats the armies who have nearly wiped Israel off of the map. Israel can only return forever to the Lord one time so when we see that event we can know that Armageddon is over. It serves as a timestamp of sorts.
Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Here we see the heathen gathered to Israel for war.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
This battle is in association with the day of the Lord.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
The Lord roars out of Zion and utters His voice from Jerusalem. God is dwelling in Jerusalem following this battle in Israel. So again we see the nations gathered in Israel, God defeats them, and dwells in Jerusalem forever after. We also have the cosmic signs in Joel 2-3 which timestamp this event as well. The cosmic signs occur just prior to the return of Christ. Christ returns at Armageddon which matches the timing we see here in Joel 3. Joel 2 tells the same story as well.
Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Again we see God removing an army from Israel, the cosmic signs, and the Lord dwelling in Jerusalem. That is how we know that both Joel 2 & 3 discuss the same set of events. God is in the midst of Israel and His people will never be ashamed. See here again we see the classic Armageddon set-up. These have to be the same battles as the Lord returns and dwells in Jerusalem only at the end of the last 7 years. It all makes perfect sense and matches in all aspects timing and content.
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
God reigning, the nations were angry (Armageddon), reward given to the saints, and destroys those who destroy the earth (Armageddon). We always have the same core primary events.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
God gathers the nations to battle in Israel, He fights against those nations, and Jesus standing on the mount of Olives. Sounding familar? The events portrayed can only occur once but we see it repeatedly throughout the bible. The story is so important nearly every prophet writes about it.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
There are probably many more but I wanted to list several before Ezekiel 38-39 so the pattern is clearly seen before we look to Ezekiel 39.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
God drags Gog to the battle with hooks in his jaws as we see God gathering the nations to Armageddon.
Eze 38:4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
The hooks in the jaws are equivalent to the spirits of devils working miracles to gather the nations to Armageddon. God defeats the forces of Gog in Israel then gathers Israel to Himself forever after. Again the classic Armageddon set-up. Israel returns to God forever at the conclusion of the Gog war. That can only happen when God returns and dwells in Jerusalem.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
God is dwelling in Israel at the conclusion of the Gog war. Gog is who God spoke of in the prophets that we have been examining in this study. The same story is repeated over and over again because it is the most important story in the bible as it chronicles the second coming of Jesus.
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Jesus tells us all the prophets wrote about Him. Many of them wrote about the endtime invasion when He returns to defeat the enemies of Israel at Armageddon. I am pretty sure I didn't list all the accounts of Armageddon in the OT. Anyone feel free to add other accounts that you have found.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:21 am
The battle of Armageddon is the last battle fought on earth prior to the millennium. We know that the AC leads this battle and is destroyed at the end of it.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Here in Rev 19 we see the destruction of the AC and company. We see the MOB mentioned relating directly to Rev 13 where we learn about the MOB.
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
The beast is introduced at the beginning of the chapter.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
The description of the beast given in Rev 13 should remind us of what Daniel the prophet wrote. Daniel described a 10 horned kingdom and defined the horns as kings for us. The same timeframe 3 1/2 years/42 months is given for both.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 7 and Rev 13 speak of the same kingdom and the same leader or the AC as we know him. Daniel gives us many more details concerning the AC's kingdom than anywhere else in the bible. Later in the book of Daniel we are even told generally where the AC rises from. In the next chapter in fact. The reason we can be sure that Daniel 7 is referring to the AC is this.
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Notice that this last horn made war with and prevailed over the saints until the Ancient of days came and the time came for the saints to inherit the kingdom. When do the saints inherit the kingdom? Not until after Jesus comes and defeats the AC at Armageddon. So the Ancient of days would be a reference to God/Jesus as they are one and the same. The AC makes war with the saints until Jesus came, judgment was given to the saints, and the time came for the saints to inherit the kingdom. The king Daniel portrays here is the last king that attacks Israel before Jesus returns and the saints possess the kingdom. We know that battle as Armageddon. The 4th kingdom that Daniel speaks of here in Dan 7 is the AC's beast kingdom.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
We see here again that the AC has power over the saints for 3 1/2 years. This is a 3 1/2 year attack that leads to one final battle called Armageddon. Daniel gives us the background information for the scene we witness in Rev 19. In Rev 19 the armies are gathered and Jesus defeats them in Israel. But that isn't when the battle started. Jesus tells us when the battle begins in Matt 24.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
The worse tribulation since the beginning of creation takes place after an event referred to as the AOD in Matt 24:15. If those days were not cut short then no flesh would be saved. But since we know that flesh is saved we know those days have already been cut short. Plus we have Marks version that says "hath shortened the days". Hath being old english for has thus in the past tense. The days have already been shortened as evident by the fact there will be some alive and remaining when Jesus arrives. The point I am getting at is that Armageddon isn't a last minute rush deal where everyone scrambles to Jerusalem at the last minute to fight Jesus. It is rather a progressive extended battle that begins at the AOD and ends 3 1/2 years later when Jesus returns to defeat the AC at Armageddon. The same horn made war with the saints until the Ancient of days came and the time came for the saints to inherit the kingdom. The same horn is the AC all the way through the 3 1/2 years. He has conquered the world by this time and thinks Israel will be a breeze but he didn't figure on these two characters standing in his way.
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
The beast/AC kills them at the conclusion of their 3 1/2 year ministry. We can know which half of the last 7 years by the context surrounding their death.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The 7th trumpet sounds after they are killed giving us the general timeframe of their ministry. Notice that the 7th trumpet announces that the kingdoms of the earth have become Christs at the 7th trumpet. Jesus takes the kingdom after the defeat of the AC as shown both in Rev 19 and Dan 7. The horn made war with the saints until the Ancient of days came and the time came to possess the kingdom. The two witnesses ministry is during the second half of the last 7 years because they die very near the end when Jesus takes the kingdom. That ministry just happens to overlap the beasts time in power. The AC is attacking Israel starting at the AOD and the two witnesses are killing anyone with fire that tries to hurt them, in a sense defending Jerusalem until the time of the end. The AC apparently can't defeat them as they are still alive at the end of the last 7 years during his entire career.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:8 verifies that we are at the end of the 7 years because we see the time of the dead and the saints rewarded (given the kingdom). The dead are judged. The context of Rev 11:8 clearly points to the end of the last 7 years. I wanted to put the big picture out there first so that when we start stepping through the details of the second coming of Jesus we can keep a good time reference. Knowing that in reality Armageddon begins at the AOD will help us to keep the details straight as we go along.
Peace,
Seeker
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Here in Rev 19 we see the destruction of the AC and company. We see the MOB mentioned relating directly to Rev 13 where we learn about the MOB.
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
The beast is introduced at the beginning of the chapter.
Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
The description of the beast given in Rev 13 should remind us of what Daniel the prophet wrote. Daniel described a 10 horned kingdom and defined the horns as kings for us. The same timeframe 3 1/2 years/42 months is given for both.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 7 and Rev 13 speak of the same kingdom and the same leader or the AC as we know him. Daniel gives us many more details concerning the AC's kingdom than anywhere else in the bible. Later in the book of Daniel we are even told generally where the AC rises from. In the next chapter in fact. The reason we can be sure that Daniel 7 is referring to the AC is this.
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Notice that this last horn made war with and prevailed over the saints until the Ancient of days came and the time came for the saints to inherit the kingdom. When do the saints inherit the kingdom? Not until after Jesus comes and defeats the AC at Armageddon. So the Ancient of days would be a reference to God/Jesus as they are one and the same. The AC makes war with the saints until Jesus came, judgment was given to the saints, and the time came for the saints to inherit the kingdom. The king Daniel portrays here is the last king that attacks Israel before Jesus returns and the saints possess the kingdom. We know that battle as Armageddon. The 4th kingdom that Daniel speaks of here in Dan 7 is the AC's beast kingdom.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
We see here again that the AC has power over the saints for 3 1/2 years. This is a 3 1/2 year attack that leads to one final battle called Armageddon. Daniel gives us the background information for the scene we witness in Rev 19. In Rev 19 the armies are gathered and Jesus defeats them in Israel. But that isn't when the battle started. Jesus tells us when the battle begins in Matt 24.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
The worse tribulation since the beginning of creation takes place after an event referred to as the AOD in Matt 24:15. If those days were not cut short then no flesh would be saved. But since we know that flesh is saved we know those days have already been cut short. Plus we have Marks version that says "hath shortened the days". Hath being old english for has thus in the past tense. The days have already been shortened as evident by the fact there will be some alive and remaining when Jesus arrives. The point I am getting at is that Armageddon isn't a last minute rush deal where everyone scrambles to Jerusalem at the last minute to fight Jesus. It is rather a progressive extended battle that begins at the AOD and ends 3 1/2 years later when Jesus returns to defeat the AC at Armageddon. The same horn made war with the saints until the Ancient of days came and the time came for the saints to inherit the kingdom. The same horn is the AC all the way through the 3 1/2 years. He has conquered the world by this time and thinks Israel will be a breeze but he didn't figure on these two characters standing in his way.
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
The beast/AC kills them at the conclusion of their 3 1/2 year ministry. We can know which half of the last 7 years by the context surrounding their death.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
The 7th trumpet sounds after they are killed giving us the general timeframe of their ministry. Notice that the 7th trumpet announces that the kingdoms of the earth have become Christs at the 7th trumpet. Jesus takes the kingdom after the defeat of the AC as shown both in Rev 19 and Dan 7. The horn made war with the saints until the Ancient of days came and the time came to possess the kingdom. The two witnesses ministry is during the second half of the last 7 years because they die very near the end when Jesus takes the kingdom. That ministry just happens to overlap the beasts time in power. The AC is attacking Israel starting at the AOD and the two witnesses are killing anyone with fire that tries to hurt them, in a sense defending Jerusalem until the time of the end. The AC apparently can't defeat them as they are still alive at the end of the last 7 years during his entire career.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:8 verifies that we are at the end of the 7 years because we see the time of the dead and the saints rewarded (given the kingdom). The dead are judged. The context of Rev 11:8 clearly points to the end of the last 7 years. I wanted to put the big picture out there first so that when we start stepping through the details of the second coming of Jesus we can keep a good time reference. Knowing that in reality Armageddon begins at the AOD will help us to keep the details straight as we go along.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:32 pm
The Return
In this study I am going to try to paint as accurate of a portrayal of the return of Jesus as I can. The first thing really is once again to gather up scriptures relating to the physical return of Christ, look at the text of those scriptures, and compile sort of a characteristic list of the second coming. Once we look at all the characteristics grouped together a clearer picture of His return will be obtained. Since all scripture is the inspired word of God, all the different details in all the different accounts all have to be true. If one account mentions a characteristic and another doesn't the characteristic is still valid in the overall big picture. That means what ever view we form from these details must not contradict any of the other characteristics as they all are equally valid being the word of the Almighty. That's quiet a tall order and I have no idea if I can pull it off but here goes. This will likely take a series of posts to adaquately cover the topic.
Probably the best place to start would be the least controversal example that I can find. Matthew 24 seems to have common agreement among many as being the physical return of Christ so we will start there.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
-The sign of Jesus will appear in heaven
-All tribes of earth will mourn when they see Jesus coming in the clouds
-They will see Jesus coming in the clouds with power and great glory
From that one verse we can derive 3 important characteristic associated with the arrival of Jesus. We also have a parallel account Luke 21.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21 adds a few details to the description which we have. We can tell it is talking about the same thing as Jesus returns with power and great glory in each account. Luke explains the details causing all the tribes to mourn when they see Jesus coming in the clouds. The setting just prior to the arrival of Jesus shows men in a state of panic such that it is causing some to have heart failure. Scared to death literally. Why; because of the things which are coming on the earth for the powers of heaven will be shaken. They see something so terrifying in the heavens that the fear of what is on the way literally kills men from fear.The background info is that before they see the sign of Jesus and Him arriving there are some very disturbing events taking place upon the face of the earth. Signs in the sun/moon/stars and upon the earth distress of nations. They are perplexed at the seas and waves roaring. They are utterly and completely terrified just prior to Jesus arriving. Not really the classic picture of a peaceful rapture I had always envisioned in the past. By looking at both accounts we gain a depth of understanding not possible when just examining Matt 24 by itself. The signs in the sun/moon/stars are also seen in Matt 24.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Here we see the powers of heaven shaken again but with more detail than Luke provides. Each view of the second coming is from a slightly different perspective. Luke gives more detail or focuses on the emotions of the people while Matt 24 gives us more detail into the stellar disturbances that are causing the emotions. Added together we get a picture of men looking up terrified when the heavens go dark and the waves roar. Imagine for a moment the scene when the sun goes dark, the moon blood red, with stars falling to earth as figs. Now their hearts failing them for fear makes much more sense. Then they see a distant bright object approaching. As it gets closer they recognize it to be Christ returning in glory. Their worst nightmare is about to commence. What is their reaction? We are given a glimpse of it in Rev 6.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
We see the same cosmic disturbances that we have in Matt 24 listed in Rev 6. Then we see them trying to hide in the caves and rocks from the face of Jesus as He nears the earth. They know He is arriving in wrath because they try to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. Everything those pesky two witnesses had been preaching came true after all and they know their goose is cooked this time. Funny that they think they could actually hide from Him. I guess with men dropping from heart failure panic mode would have set in as they try to save their own skin. The sinners are terrified at the return of Christ. Heaven had departed as a scroll, every mountain and island were moved out of their place and this is just prior to the arrival of Jesus in the NT. I'll stop here for now and try to keep this to manageable lengths. By combining all the attributes of 3 parallel accounts of the return of Christ we have assembled a course rough draft of the return of Christ. There are many other accounts with other characteristics to add to our story. But for now the world is trembling as they see Christ approaching.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Peace,
Seeker
In this study I am going to try to paint as accurate of a portrayal of the return of Jesus as I can. The first thing really is once again to gather up scriptures relating to the physical return of Christ, look at the text of those scriptures, and compile sort of a characteristic list of the second coming. Once we look at all the characteristics grouped together a clearer picture of His return will be obtained. Since all scripture is the inspired word of God, all the different details in all the different accounts all have to be true. If one account mentions a characteristic and another doesn't the characteristic is still valid in the overall big picture. That means what ever view we form from these details must not contradict any of the other characteristics as they all are equally valid being the word of the Almighty. That's quiet a tall order and I have no idea if I can pull it off but here goes. This will likely take a series of posts to adaquately cover the topic.
Probably the best place to start would be the least controversal example that I can find. Matthew 24 seems to have common agreement among many as being the physical return of Christ so we will start there.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
-The sign of Jesus will appear in heaven
-All tribes of earth will mourn when they see Jesus coming in the clouds
-They will see Jesus coming in the clouds with power and great glory
From that one verse we can derive 3 important characteristic associated with the arrival of Jesus. We also have a parallel account Luke 21.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21 adds a few details to the description which we have. We can tell it is talking about the same thing as Jesus returns with power and great glory in each account. Luke explains the details causing all the tribes to mourn when they see Jesus coming in the clouds. The setting just prior to the arrival of Jesus shows men in a state of panic such that it is causing some to have heart failure. Scared to death literally. Why; because of the things which are coming on the earth for the powers of heaven will be shaken. They see something so terrifying in the heavens that the fear of what is on the way literally kills men from fear.The background info is that before they see the sign of Jesus and Him arriving there are some very disturbing events taking place upon the face of the earth. Signs in the sun/moon/stars and upon the earth distress of nations. They are perplexed at the seas and waves roaring. They are utterly and completely terrified just prior to Jesus arriving. Not really the classic picture of a peaceful rapture I had always envisioned in the past. By looking at both accounts we gain a depth of understanding not possible when just examining Matt 24 by itself. The signs in the sun/moon/stars are also seen in Matt 24.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Here we see the powers of heaven shaken again but with more detail than Luke provides. Each view of the second coming is from a slightly different perspective. Luke gives more detail or focuses on the emotions of the people while Matt 24 gives us more detail into the stellar disturbances that are causing the emotions. Added together we get a picture of men looking up terrified when the heavens go dark and the waves roar. Imagine for a moment the scene when the sun goes dark, the moon blood red, with stars falling to earth as figs. Now their hearts failing them for fear makes much more sense. Then they see a distant bright object approaching. As it gets closer they recognize it to be Christ returning in glory. Their worst nightmare is about to commence. What is their reaction? We are given a glimpse of it in Rev 6.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
We see the same cosmic disturbances that we have in Matt 24 listed in Rev 6. Then we see them trying to hide in the caves and rocks from the face of Jesus as He nears the earth. They know He is arriving in wrath because they try to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. Everything those pesky two witnesses had been preaching came true after all and they know their goose is cooked this time. Funny that they think they could actually hide from Him. I guess with men dropping from heart failure panic mode would have set in as they try to save their own skin. The sinners are terrified at the return of Christ. Heaven had departed as a scroll, every mountain and island were moved out of their place and this is just prior to the arrival of Jesus in the NT. I'll stop here for now and try to keep this to manageable lengths. By combining all the attributes of 3 parallel accounts of the return of Christ we have assembled a course rough draft of the return of Christ. There are many other accounts with other characteristics to add to our story. But for now the world is trembling as they see Christ approaching.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:59 pm
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
The arrival with the clouds is a common characteristic among several of the second coming accounts in the bible. We can add that to our description of the return of Christ since it is in all three accounts above. Searching via E-sword I found an interesting mention of the clouds in the book of Daniel. I am trying to build us a visual representation of what the scriptures say about the second coming. Something we can grasp a bit better than the scattered descriptions of the event. At the end of the last post we had men on earth terrified at the stellar events taking place as they became aware of Jesus arriving. Now we know He was arriving with the clouds.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus goes to the Ancient of days (God) and He was given the everlasting kingdom. Interesting picture of the Son and Father together in scripture. The handing over of the kingdom is associated with Jesus arriving in the clouds. Our knowledge base is increasing.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
The AC is the little horn. Daniel watched until the throne of the AC was cast down and the Ancient of days did sit. Next we get quite the dramatic description of the appearance of God. Garment and hair white as snow/wool on a throne like a fiery flame and the wheels as burning fire. So the description of the Ancient of days can help us visualize the scene. So far we don't know what the Son looks like but we will a bit later. A fiery stream issued forth from God from his fiery throne as the judgment was set. So Jesus gets the kingdom and judgment is set. Daniel watched until the beast was slain, his body destroyed and given to the burning flame. We have a whole wealth of new info in that brief description provided to us from Daniel. So we have Jesus arriving in the clouds, brought before God, given the kingdom, judgment was set/the books were opened, the AC was slain and given to the burning fire. All these things are part of the arrival of Jesus in the clouds. Now the task is to prove all that with other supporting scripture. First though let's go on down to the interpretation portion of this chapter to make sure we have interpreted the vision properly.
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
We see the horn/AC making war with the saints until the Ancient of days came, judgment given to the saints, and the time came for the saints to inherit the kingdom.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Here we are given a little more detail in the interpretation God gives us for the vision. He makes war with the saints for 3 1/2 years until judgment will sit and they take away his dominion to destroy it to the end. The kingdom and dominion is then given to the saints. The interpretation matches my previous interpretation above. Daniel says that Jesus returns with the clouds and defeats the AC after he has made war with and prevailed over the saints for 3 1/2 years. That description leads us to the book of Revelation.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
This verifies exactly what Daniel said concerning the 3 1/2 years that the AC prevails over the saints. We can cross verify that indirectly by going back to Matt 24 for a bit.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
The worst tribulation the world has ever seen begins at the AOD that Daniel talks about. A big circle back to Daniel.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The AC causes the AOD and begins his 3 1/2 year power over the saints in the middle of the last 7 years. Year 3.5 plus 3 1/2 years gets us to the end of the last 7 years for when the AC looses his power and dominion. We have a 3 1/2 year campaign by the AC prior to Jesus returning in the clouds and defeating him as Daniel 7 shows. According to Daniel then Jesus returns at the time the AC is defeated. Where do we see the AC defeated in scripture?
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Here it is at Armageddon. Now let's scan Rev 19 to see if we can confirm that Jesus arrives on earth at this time.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Aw here we are. We see heaven opened and Jesus there on a white horse. His eyes were as flames of fire and He had many crowns upon His head. Now we are getting a partial description of Jesus for mental reference of the scene. So Jesus arrives on a white horse with the clouds with eyes of fire and many crowns. He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood. The visual appearance of Jesus as He arrives is getting a bit clearer for us. Note also that the armies of heaven followed Him upon white horses as well. Now back to those wailing at the appearance of Jesus in the clouds (Rev 1). Oh it is becoming evident why they might be wailing. A whole army mounted on horses approaching following the Lord clothed in blood, eyes of fire, and out of His mouth a shard sword to smite the nations. That explains why they are heading for the hills in Rev 6 trying to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. Their hearts falling as they see Jesus arriving with His heavenly host army. Shear terror grips them no doubt as they realize their pending fate. Totally different picture than I was taught years ago. A bit more scripture to confirm this theory would be nice.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The AC is revealed who Jesus destroys with the brightness of His coming. Ok that verifies Jesus destroying the AC upon arrival so our story checks out. I will stop there and give some time for this to sink in before continuing. Questions and comments are welcome also if anyone would like to add anything or have me explain something in more detail or point out a flaw in my scripture connections. The goal is to develop as accurate as possible mental picture of Jesus returning so any corrections are welcome for sure.
We end with this scenario pictured so far. Jesus arrives on a white horse in the clouds having eyes of fire wearing many crowns and a vesture dipped in blood with a sharp sword coming out of his mouth followed by the armies of heaven on white horses. He approaches the Father and the kingdom is given to Him with the AC being destroyed loosing his dominion over the kingdom. The saints are given the kingdom that is taken from the AC. I think that agrees with the scriptures we have looked at thus far.
Peace,
Seeker
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
The arrival with the clouds is a common characteristic among several of the second coming accounts in the bible. We can add that to our description of the return of Christ since it is in all three accounts above. Searching via E-sword I found an interesting mention of the clouds in the book of Daniel. I am trying to build us a visual representation of what the scriptures say about the second coming. Something we can grasp a bit better than the scattered descriptions of the event. At the end of the last post we had men on earth terrified at the stellar events taking place as they became aware of Jesus arriving. Now we know He was arriving with the clouds.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Jesus goes to the Ancient of days (God) and He was given the everlasting kingdom. Interesting picture of the Son and Father together in scripture. The handing over of the kingdom is associated with Jesus arriving in the clouds. Our knowledge base is increasing.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
The AC is the little horn. Daniel watched until the throne of the AC was cast down and the Ancient of days did sit. Next we get quite the dramatic description of the appearance of God. Garment and hair white as snow/wool on a throne like a fiery flame and the wheels as burning fire. So the description of the Ancient of days can help us visualize the scene. So far we don't know what the Son looks like but we will a bit later. A fiery stream issued forth from God from his fiery throne as the judgment was set. So Jesus gets the kingdom and judgment is set. Daniel watched until the beast was slain, his body destroyed and given to the burning flame. We have a whole wealth of new info in that brief description provided to us from Daniel. So we have Jesus arriving in the clouds, brought before God, given the kingdom, judgment was set/the books were opened, the AC was slain and given to the burning fire. All these things are part of the arrival of Jesus in the clouds. Now the task is to prove all that with other supporting scripture. First though let's go on down to the interpretation portion of this chapter to make sure we have interpreted the vision properly.
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
We see the horn/AC making war with the saints until the Ancient of days came, judgment given to the saints, and the time came for the saints to inherit the kingdom.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Here we are given a little more detail in the interpretation God gives us for the vision. He makes war with the saints for 3 1/2 years until judgment will sit and they take away his dominion to destroy it to the end. The kingdom and dominion is then given to the saints. The interpretation matches my previous interpretation above. Daniel says that Jesus returns with the clouds and defeats the AC after he has made war with and prevailed over the saints for 3 1/2 years. That description leads us to the book of Revelation.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
This verifies exactly what Daniel said concerning the 3 1/2 years that the AC prevails over the saints. We can cross verify that indirectly by going back to Matt 24 for a bit.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
The worst tribulation the world has ever seen begins at the AOD that Daniel talks about. A big circle back to Daniel.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The AC causes the AOD and begins his 3 1/2 year power over the saints in the middle of the last 7 years. Year 3.5 plus 3 1/2 years gets us to the end of the last 7 years for when the AC looses his power and dominion. We have a 3 1/2 year campaign by the AC prior to Jesus returning in the clouds and defeating him as Daniel 7 shows. According to Daniel then Jesus returns at the time the AC is defeated. Where do we see the AC defeated in scripture?
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Here it is at Armageddon. Now let's scan Rev 19 to see if we can confirm that Jesus arrives on earth at this time.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Aw here we are. We see heaven opened and Jesus there on a white horse. His eyes were as flames of fire and He had many crowns upon His head. Now we are getting a partial description of Jesus for mental reference of the scene. So Jesus arrives on a white horse with the clouds with eyes of fire and many crowns. He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood. The visual appearance of Jesus as He arrives is getting a bit clearer for us. Note also that the armies of heaven followed Him upon white horses as well. Now back to those wailing at the appearance of Jesus in the clouds (Rev 1). Oh it is becoming evident why they might be wailing. A whole army mounted on horses approaching following the Lord clothed in blood, eyes of fire, and out of His mouth a shard sword to smite the nations. That explains why they are heading for the hills in Rev 6 trying to hide from the wrath of the Lamb. Their hearts falling as they see Jesus arriving with His heavenly host army. Shear terror grips them no doubt as they realize their pending fate. Totally different picture than I was taught years ago. A bit more scripture to confirm this theory would be nice.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The AC is revealed who Jesus destroys with the brightness of His coming. Ok that verifies Jesus destroying the AC upon arrival so our story checks out. I will stop there and give some time for this to sink in before continuing. Questions and comments are welcome also if anyone would like to add anything or have me explain something in more detail or point out a flaw in my scripture connections. The goal is to develop as accurate as possible mental picture of Jesus returning so any corrections are welcome for sure.
We end with this scenario pictured so far. Jesus arrives on a white horse in the clouds having eyes of fire wearing many crowns and a vesture dipped in blood with a sharp sword coming out of his mouth followed by the armies of heaven on white horses. He approaches the Father and the kingdom is given to Him with the AC being destroyed loosing his dominion over the kingdom. The saints are given the kingdom that is taken from the AC. I think that agrees with the scriptures we have looked at thus far.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:47 am
When we left off we had a picture of Jesus returning in Glory upon a white horse wielding a sword. The normal picture of Jesus arriving is usually Jesus half summerged in a cloud as bodies glide up to meet Him from the graves. I would say that is the most typical graphic representation that I have seen. Granted Jesus does resurrect the saints as part of His second coming so the picture is accurate in that respect. What is not accurate about it is how Jesus is pictured. He is rarely pictured as we see Him described in the scriptures in my last post. People like to point out the loving saving Jesus but they disregard the majority of scripture which describes His return as a returning warrior King who will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Not the placid Jesus we normally think of. So why does the normal portrayal of Jesus and the scripture accounts of the return of Jesus differ so much? I think mainly it is easier to "sell" the placid Jesus returning than it is the warrior Jesus. People frankly don't want to hear about sin, judgment, and definitely not fire and brimstone. The thought of enduring through the tribulation and the wrath of God terrifies most so they will grasp onto anything other than that concept.
So which is correct a placid returning Jesus or the picture I paint of a returning warrior King returning to claim His kingdom. That is pretty easy to figure out using scripture itself. I mainly used Rev 19 and 2Th 1 to form the description of the warrior King Jesus. If that is an accurate portrayal of the arrival of Jesus then the other scriptures that describe the return of Jesus should also support or at least not contradict that view.
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Where is the promise of Jesus coming the scoffers ask in the last days. All things remain the same as they were since the creation. A very clear signal Jesus hasn't arrived yet or they wouldn't be asking where is the promise of His coming. They are willingly ignorant that by the word of God the world was overflowed with water.
But the heavens and the earth are reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Quick poll...placid or warrior King here at this description Peter gives us of the return of Jesus? Obviously not placid so this account of the second coming fits my picture of the warrior King.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Then later Peter adds even greater detail to the day of the Lord. Notice that? Peter equates the promise of His coming to the DOTL. I will get to that later when I get into the OT accounts of the second coming. For now I will stay in the NT to set the foundation. Anyhow we definitely see the warrior King portrayed by Peter in describing the promise of His coming.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Here is another view of the second coming placid or warrior King? Again obviously warrior King. Since we have the cosmic signs in this warrior King scene we can take that description over to Matt 24 with us. The cosmic signs link the two together plus we see Jesus returning in each.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Does this description lean closer to warrior king or placid? Why would all the tribes of the earth mourn over the sight of the open armed placid Jesus? No this scene is closer to the warrior King side which is exactly what we should expect because the 6th seal is shown in Matt 24:29.
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Placid? Luke 17:30 says it will be like Sodom when it rained fire and destroyed them all. Where else do we see Jesus revealed from heaven?
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Another obvious warrior King example when Jesus is "revealed from heaven". All these are perfectly consitant with the picture of the warrior king I show in the previous post. So far we are batting 1,000 and no contraditions to our warrior King model. Peter tells us that the promise of His coming and the day of the Lord are the same thing. We can verify that with these scriptures.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The Lord will descend from heaven...the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. Just like Peter did, Paul describes the return of Christ as the day of the Lord. So far in each case we have seen a warrior King Jesus depicted in scripture. Here in 1Th 5 we see that as well....sudden destruction comes upon them, That is associated with the Lord descending from heaven and part of the second coming. One other important thing we see here is this. The dead in Christ will rise first before we are raptured. So before we go the resurrection has to take place. I will go through all the verses that show the resurrection in the next post. For now we are still poised with the warrior King and the armies of heaven coming in the clouds and a chaotic terrified world is trying to hide from Him. We definitely have the warrior King pictured in the scene in which we are raptured after the dead in Christ rise (resurrection). There has to be a resurrection before we go because the dead in Christ rise at the resurrection. Make sense?
Peace,
Seeker
So which is correct a placid returning Jesus or the picture I paint of a returning warrior King returning to claim His kingdom. That is pretty easy to figure out using scripture itself. I mainly used Rev 19 and 2Th 1 to form the description of the warrior King Jesus. If that is an accurate portrayal of the arrival of Jesus then the other scriptures that describe the return of Jesus should also support or at least not contradict that view.
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Where is the promise of Jesus coming the scoffers ask in the last days. All things remain the same as they were since the creation. A very clear signal Jesus hasn't arrived yet or they wouldn't be asking where is the promise of His coming. They are willingly ignorant that by the word of God the world was overflowed with water.
But the heavens and the earth are reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Quick poll...placid or warrior King here at this description Peter gives us of the return of Jesus? Obviously not placid so this account of the second coming fits my picture of the warrior King.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Then later Peter adds even greater detail to the day of the Lord. Notice that? Peter equates the promise of His coming to the DOTL. I will get to that later when I get into the OT accounts of the second coming. For now I will stay in the NT to set the foundation. Anyhow we definitely see the warrior King portrayed by Peter in describing the promise of His coming.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Here is another view of the second coming placid or warrior King? Again obviously warrior King. Since we have the cosmic signs in this warrior King scene we can take that description over to Matt 24 with us. The cosmic signs link the two together plus we see Jesus returning in each.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Does this description lean closer to warrior king or placid? Why would all the tribes of the earth mourn over the sight of the open armed placid Jesus? No this scene is closer to the warrior King side which is exactly what we should expect because the 6th seal is shown in Matt 24:29.
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Placid? Luke 17:30 says it will be like Sodom when it rained fire and destroyed them all. Where else do we see Jesus revealed from heaven?
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Another obvious warrior King example when Jesus is "revealed from heaven". All these are perfectly consitant with the picture of the warrior king I show in the previous post. So far we are batting 1,000 and no contraditions to our warrior King model. Peter tells us that the promise of His coming and the day of the Lord are the same thing. We can verify that with these scriptures.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The Lord will descend from heaven...the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. Just like Peter did, Paul describes the return of Christ as the day of the Lord. So far in each case we have seen a warrior King Jesus depicted in scripture. Here in 1Th 5 we see that as well....sudden destruction comes upon them, That is associated with the Lord descending from heaven and part of the second coming. One other important thing we see here is this. The dead in Christ will rise first before we are raptured. So before we go the resurrection has to take place. I will go through all the verses that show the resurrection in the next post. For now we are still poised with the warrior King and the armies of heaven coming in the clouds and a chaotic terrified world is trying to hide from Him. We definitely have the warrior King pictured in the scene in which we are raptured after the dead in Christ rise (resurrection). There has to be a resurrection before we go because the dead in Christ rise at the resurrection. Make sense?
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:29 am
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Paul tells us here that the dead in Christ will rise first and then after that we who are alive and remain. By definition to rise again after death is called a resurrection. Before we can be raptured there has to be a resurrection of the dead as 1Th 4:16&17 show. Where is there a resurrection shown in scripture? I know where what is called the "first" resurrection is in scripture.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
These refused the mark of the beast which timestamps the end of their lifes as occuring in the last 3 1/2 years during the time the AC has dominion over the saints. Matt 24:15 tells us his tribulation against the saints begins at the AOD (middle of the last 7 years) and ends 3 1/2 years later which is the very end of the last 7 years or Armageddon. And that makes sense because we see Jesus arrive and toss the AC into the lake of fire at the conclusion of Armageddon as shown in Rev 19. After the 3 1/2 year tribulation ends the Ancient of days arrives and the saints possess the kingdom (Dan 7). After Armageddon ends in Rev 19 we see the first resurrection here in Rev 20:4. These are the dead in Christ that rise before we are raptured. They are dead and this is their resurrection which is after the 3 1/2 year reign of the AC. There has to be some sort of resurrection prior to our rapture so that the dead can rise first. We also see the resurrection here in scripture.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Here we see a resurrection following the death of the AC which we know occurs at Armageddon at the end of the last 7 years. This resurrection's timing matches what we see in Rev 19-20, death of AC followed by a resurrection. So the two resurrections that we are looking at both occur at the end of the last 7 years following the death of the AC. If the dead in Christ rise in those two examples then the rapture can't take place before the end of the last 7 years. These are the only two examples of that I know of that are clearly a resurrection. We have several verses with comments about the resurrection such as these.
Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
All these references to the resurrection match the timing of Armageddon. Armageddon ends at the 7th vial which ends the last 7 years so would be technically the "last day" which is the same thing we see in the other examples of the resurrection from scripture. The only timing that I see in the bible for the resurrection is at the last day/7th vial as indicated in all the resurrection scriptures I can find. I don't find any descriptions of the resurrection prior to the last day.So back to 1Th 4. The dead in Christ rise first. That has to be at the last day because the only places we see the dead rising in scripture are after the AC dies at Armageddon in each instance. Jesus returns at Armageddon and not before that. We can be sure because of this scripture.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Jesus comes as a thief before Armageddon as the verses above say. Blessed is he that watches for Jesus to come as a thief. The words don't get much plainer than here in Rev 16:16. Each word means exactly what it says in the normal use of the words. They means precisely what they say and they say that the dead in Christ rise after the AC is dead and that Jesus is still to arrive as a thief just before Armageddon. That matches what we have learned about the resurrection. No contradictions everything fits perfectly together when we just read scripture and believe it means exactly what it says.
Peace,
Seeker
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Paul tells us here that the dead in Christ will rise first and then after that we who are alive and remain. By definition to rise again after death is called a resurrection. Before we can be raptured there has to be a resurrection of the dead as 1Th 4:16&17 show. Where is there a resurrection shown in scripture? I know where what is called the "first" resurrection is in scripture.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
These refused the mark of the beast which timestamps the end of their lifes as occuring in the last 3 1/2 years during the time the AC has dominion over the saints. Matt 24:15 tells us his tribulation against the saints begins at the AOD (middle of the last 7 years) and ends 3 1/2 years later which is the very end of the last 7 years or Armageddon. And that makes sense because we see Jesus arrive and toss the AC into the lake of fire at the conclusion of Armageddon as shown in Rev 19. After the 3 1/2 year tribulation ends the Ancient of days arrives and the saints possess the kingdom (Dan 7). After Armageddon ends in Rev 19 we see the first resurrection here in Rev 20:4. These are the dead in Christ that rise before we are raptured. They are dead and this is their resurrection which is after the 3 1/2 year reign of the AC. There has to be some sort of resurrection prior to our rapture so that the dead can rise first. We also see the resurrection here in scripture.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Here we see a resurrection following the death of the AC which we know occurs at Armageddon at the end of the last 7 years. This resurrection's timing matches what we see in Rev 19-20, death of AC followed by a resurrection. So the two resurrections that we are looking at both occur at the end of the last 7 years following the death of the AC. If the dead in Christ rise in those two examples then the rapture can't take place before the end of the last 7 years. These are the only two examples of that I know of that are clearly a resurrection. We have several verses with comments about the resurrection such as these.
Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh_12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
All these references to the resurrection match the timing of Armageddon. Armageddon ends at the 7th vial which ends the last 7 years so would be technically the "last day" which is the same thing we see in the other examples of the resurrection from scripture. The only timing that I see in the bible for the resurrection is at the last day/7th vial as indicated in all the resurrection scriptures I can find. I don't find any descriptions of the resurrection prior to the last day.So back to 1Th 4. The dead in Christ rise first. That has to be at the last day because the only places we see the dead rising in scripture are after the AC dies at Armageddon in each instance. Jesus returns at Armageddon and not before that. We can be sure because of this scripture.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Jesus comes as a thief before Armageddon as the verses above say. Blessed is he that watches for Jesus to come as a thief. The words don't get much plainer than here in Rev 16:16. Each word means exactly what it says in the normal use of the words. They means precisely what they say and they say that the dead in Christ rise after the AC is dead and that Jesus is still to arrive as a thief just before Armageddon. That matches what we have learned about the resurrection. No contradictions everything fits perfectly together when we just read scripture and believe it means exactly what it says.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:45 am
jgilberAZ wrote:
Seeker responded:
There has been much speculation concerning what Matthew 24:22 means when it mentions that "those days should be shortened" - inasmuch as doctrines concerning the Rapture and/or the 2nd Coming have been formed by this verse alone.
The question then becomes: "What does Matthew 24:22 mean when it states that those days shall be cut short?" Well, let me humbly add to or piggyback on "a little" of what Seeker has mentioned, by stating that Jesus returns "immediately after" the Tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29). This would suggest that the time periods that have been established will most certainly be carried out - meaning the full 3.5 years that the coming Antichrist will have to reign will NOT be "cut short" but "IF" his reign had been extended beyond the established 3.5 years to continue his persecution, then "no flesh would be saved."
Many want to insert a "Pre-wrath" type rapture position into the Tribulation period, but Scripture does not support this teaching. They believe that for the elect's sake, those days will be cut short and not be the entire 3.5 years that Scripture clearly teaches shall be.
A Post Tribulation Rapture goes in complete harmony with Scripture and is when the Day of the Lord actually begins. The Kingdom isn't established and given to the Saints until He Returns.
I struggle to determine if the days are cut short from 3.5 to something less, or, cut short to 3.5 years from something longer.
Seeker responded:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The worst tribulation ever seen or that ever will be seen occurs and if those days of tribulation were not shortened then no flesh would be saved. If the tribulation were allowed to continue all flesh would be lost. We know that there is a remnant that survives the tribulation so the days have been cut short or there would be no remnant. The provisions to save the remnant are provided within the given timeframes mentioned in various prophetic passages. 3 1/2 years is mentioned many many times. There is no need to take any days away from the 3 1/2 years because the saints are given the kingdom within that time span.
There has been much speculation concerning what Matthew 24:22 means when it mentions that "those days should be shortened" - inasmuch as doctrines concerning the Rapture and/or the 2nd Coming have been formed by this verse alone.
The question then becomes: "What does Matthew 24:22 mean when it states that those days shall be cut short?" Well, let me humbly add to or piggyback on "a little" of what Seeker has mentioned, by stating that Jesus returns "immediately after" the Tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29). This would suggest that the time periods that have been established will most certainly be carried out - meaning the full 3.5 years that the coming Antichrist will have to reign will NOT be "cut short" but "IF" his reign had been extended beyond the established 3.5 years to continue his persecution, then "no flesh would be saved."
Many want to insert a "Pre-wrath" type rapture position into the Tribulation period, but Scripture does not support this teaching. They believe that for the elect's sake, those days will be cut short and not be the entire 3.5 years that Scripture clearly teaches shall be.
A Post Tribulation Rapture goes in complete harmony with Scripture and is when the Day of the Lord actually begins. The Kingdom isn't established and given to the Saints until He Returns.
- Mr Baldy
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- Location: San Antonio, Tx
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:05 pm
I was just reviewing this thread again and appreciate your addition to the thread Mr. Baldy. I wanted to add to the discussion another piece of scripture that helps clarify what is meant by "should be shortened".
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark presents a parallel account of Matthew 24. He uses "had and hath" which are past tense indicating the days have already been shortened which makes sense since there is flesh saved as discussed above.
Peace,
Seeker
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mark presents a parallel account of Matthew 24. He uses "had and hath" which are past tense indicating the days have already been shortened which makes sense since there is flesh saved as discussed above.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:18 pm
Seeker wrote:but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Hi Seeker,
Thank you for posting your thoughts.......
I was recently at the Orange Mailman's site, and he highly recommended a book by an Author by the name of "Alan E Kurschner" concerning what we frequently discuss on this forum - "The Rapture" and it's timing. Alan E Kurschner has a book called: "Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord: what Every Christian Needs to Know About the Return of Christ". I actually ordered a shorter version of his book called: "Prewrath a very short introduction" which is a very short version of only about 118 pages.
When it comes to the Kingdom of Christ, I will never ever hold back Truth. I have debated within my own mind about Post Tribulation, and Pre-Wrath - and which one is actually correct. Well.......this book has pretty convincing information supporting a "Pre-Wrath" Rapture.
Now, after reading the comments that you have just made concerning the "Elect" and the world "should be shortened" and for the sake of the "Elect" those days "shall be shortened" - well......what more actually needs to be said...other than, I believe that I may be wrong.
- Mr Baldy
- Posts: 2503
- Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
- Location: San Antonio, Tx
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:28 am
Hi Mr. Baldy,
Orange is an old friend and mentor of mine glad to hear he is still running his blog. I haven't been there for quite awhile as I prefer a Bulletin Board format to debate on. You can find several old threads between he and myself here actually. We often discussed Pre-Wrath vs Post-Trib. He knows his stuff no doubt but I still find Pre-Wrath lacking in alignment with some of the scriptures concerning the second coming of Christ. I am not quite certain what you are saying in your post above though. Do you still favor pre-wrath or do you mean you did and now not sure? If you still lean toward pre-wrath or are uncertain let's discuss it. I find that pre-wrath rests on a very limited amount of scripture. Their most often cited passage is the passage we are discussing. I feel Mark sufficiently corrects the pre-wrath misunderstanding of Matthew 24:22 and is why I found it in the first place, while debating against a pre-wrath position.
Peace
Seeker
Orange is an old friend and mentor of mine glad to hear he is still running his blog. I haven't been there for quite awhile as I prefer a Bulletin Board format to debate on. You can find several old threads between he and myself here actually. We often discussed Pre-Wrath vs Post-Trib. He knows his stuff no doubt but I still find Pre-Wrath lacking in alignment with some of the scriptures concerning the second coming of Christ. I am not quite certain what you are saying in your post above though. Do you still favor pre-wrath or do you mean you did and now not sure? If you still lean toward pre-wrath or are uncertain let's discuss it. I find that pre-wrath rests on a very limited amount of scripture. Their most often cited passage is the passage we are discussing. I feel Mark sufficiently corrects the pre-wrath misunderstanding of Matthew 24:22 and is why I found it in the first place, while debating against a pre-wrath position.
Peace
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
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Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 21, 2015 5:48 pm
I am not quite certain what you are saying in your post above though. Do you still favor pre-wrath or do you mean you did and now not sure? If you still lean toward pre-wrath or are uncertain let's discuss it.
Hi Seeker,
Thank you for your response. Let me begin by saying that I really thought that I had it all figured out - and I became so very certain that the Post Tribulation view was "spot on". But Revelation 7 continues to give me problems. I believe that in essence, the Post Tribulation view is somewhat the same as the Pre-Wrath view, in that they are both discussing the timing of the Rapture to occur AFTER the tribulation period. This point about both views is without a doubt, Scripturally Sound.
However, I have found absolutely nothing in written in Scripture that tells us what happens to us after we are "gathered unto Him in the Clouds" - yet in Revelation 7:9 we are told by John that he sees a "multitude with no one could count" standing before the Throne and before the Lamb. An elder subsequently asks John the question: "who are they, and where have they come from?" This same elder answers his own question by saying: "These are the who come out of the great tribulation" (Revelation 7:13-17)
Now this appears certainly to be in contrast with what is written in Matthew 24:29 - 31 - which describes Christ Returning AFTER the tribulation period - only to "send forth His angels with a Great Trumpet" to "gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other".
Ok Seeker......please tell me: Are we being "gathered together unto Him in the Air/Clouds" as He descends at His Return AFTER the Great Tribulation?" Or are we "gathered together" prior to His Wrath, and appear before the Throne - as He descends gradually while His Wrath is being poured out on the Earth?
I mean what is going on at our Gathering unto Him - how long is His Wrath being poured out on the Earth - and what are those who have been gathered unto Him doing? Are we hovering in the Clouds - I mean I am just completely lost after Scripture mentions the Rapture in both Matthew 24 and how it connects to Revelation 7.
Again, in Matthew 24 it appears as if we are gathered at His Coming - which appears to be in direct contrast with Revelation 7, in that we suddenly appear before the Throne without explanation. This is why Revelation 7 gives me such a problem with the timing of my view of the Rapture. These two particular passages of Scripture should work in harmony.....Perhaps they do, but I'm just not understanding.
What say you?
- Mr Baldy
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- Location: San Antonio, Tx
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:38 am
Hi Mr. Baldy,
I understand the feeling. Thought I had it all figured out several times...when I was pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath lol. I have progressively stepped through all types of rapture positions in my journey to where I am at today. Bottom line is for me that Post-Wrath best fits what I read in scriptures or what I think I read anyway. There are still many holes in my understanding but piece by piece it all seems to fit together quite nicely from the big perspective. I have issues in my theory but that is why I call it a theory after all.
I used to joke with Orange that we are only microseconds apart in our understanding. He views Pre-Wrath in a unique manner that brings his theory very close to mine where I literally believe what he and I debate over could be a couple of microseconds. With all that being said let me try to show you why I think Pre-wrath falls just a bit short. First I want to reference back to the days being shortened conversation above. The verses from Mark resolve the issue from my perspective just wanted to put that out first to counter their most used argument about the days being cut short. Matthew and Rev 7 say the same thing it is just harder to see in Rev 7. Let me try to explain it.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The most important thing, as in all scripture, is context. To understand any one or two verses in scripture we need to read the chapters surrounding the text in question. It's like trying to figure out what a whole book means by one sentence. Obviously we need to read paragraphs and chapters to get a better idea about what the book is saying. Same thing in this case especially. Pre-wrath takes Rev 7 by itself and doesn't really consider Rev 6 in the process.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You are correct about Matt 24 it is obvious by the phrase "Immediately after the trib of those days"......Can't be much clearer than that. The cosmic signs (sun/moon/earth dark) occur immediately after the tribulation ends. They also always occur just before Jesus arrives. Joel makes that clear for us.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
The cosmic signs occur before the DOTL but after the tribulation. That is exactly what we see in Matt 24 as well.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Everywhere that we see the cosmic signs in scripture they are associated with God returning to earth. They are never mentioned in isolation but rather always in association with the return of God to this earth.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Here again in Rev 6 we see the cosmic signs. To be consistent with the other places we see the cosmic signs we would expect to see God returning to earth at that point. And sure enough we see men trying to hide from Jesus as He returns with the wrath of God. So here once again we see the cosmic signs presented in association with the return of God to earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
We see that there are still brethren to be killed as the ones under the altar were at the 5th seal. So the tribulation of those days continues through the 5th seal and then we see the cosmic signs, which always precede the return of God, followed by men hiding in the rocks from the face of Jesus.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24 is clear. Cosmic signs and then ALL the tribes of the earth mourn and they will see the Son of man and then finally the angels gather the elect. Now let's look again at Rev 6-7.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So in summary we have tribulation saints waiting to be killed at the 5th seal. Then we see the cosmic signs which occur immediately after the 5th seal. Jesus returns in wrath removing the tares (that's why they try to hide in the rocks from the great day of His wrath). We see that in Matt 24:30 where all the tribes of the earth are mourning when they see Jesus. They are mourning because He is arriving in wrath. Why else would they mourn the glorious return of Christ? Why hide in the rocks? Then we see that the great day of His wrath has come and after that we see the raptured saints in heaven in Rev 7. Rev 7 simply continues the conversation started in Rev 6 let me show you.
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
The first verse of Rev 7 says "And after these things". That directly connects Rev 7 back to the things we had just read about in Rev 6. This is a rewind moment back to before the wrath of God. They aren't to hurt the earth until the servants of God had been sealed. The wrath has come in Rev 6 already so this is just an expansion of the idea we read about in Rev 6 or further details if you will. And after these things connect Rev 7 back to what we read in Rev 6. I feel that pre-wrath does not understand this issue or doesn't want to understand that point.
If we have clear scriptures, like Matt 24, that say one thing and not so clear scriptures, Rev 7, saying another opposite thing; one of the two things is wrong or misunderstood because there are no conflicts in scripture. Seems to me that it would be very difficult to change Matthew 24 to pre-wrath and a simple matter to follow the flow of scripture out of Rev 6 into Rev 7 which would then confirm what we read in Matt 24. Pre-wrath has do some pretty tricky acrobatics to get their theory to work.
That is why Orange doesn't prescribe to traditional pre-wrath. He recognized the biblical inconsistencies of typical pre-wrath and has made a good attempt to reconcile some of those issues. But as you see above I think they miss the point that Rev 6-7 flow together as part of the same story. Same as the being cut short issue. They found enough wiggle room in Matt 24:22 to develop a theory but failed to see that Mark adds further information that enables us to see that the time is not to be cut short but rather has already been cut short. I'll address your other questions in another post now that I have laid the ground work. Good questions and like I say I fully understand the contradiction you see because I saw it too and that is why my time as pre-wrath was very short.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
One other thing to consider is the resurrection. The "dead in Christ rise first" and then we are raptured. There must be a resurrection prior to the rapture. Pre-wrath fails as bad as pre-trib does on that issue. The "first" resurrection is shown in Rev 20:4. That occurs after Armageddon and the beginning of the 1,000 years. That is evident because prior to reading about the "first" resurrection Satan is bound for 1,000 years in Rev 20. Pre-wrath can't happen before Rev 20:4 does because that is where we find the "first" resurrection.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Pre-wrathers hate words like first and last lol. I will continue in another post and address your other issues.
Peace,
Seeker
Thank you for your response. Let me begin by saying that I really thought that I had it all figured out - and I became so very certain that the Post Tribulation view was "spot on". But Revelation 7 continues to give me problems. I believe that in essence, the Post Tribulation view is somewhat the same as the Pre-Wrath view, in that they are both discussing the timing of the Rapture to occur AFTER the tribulation period. This point about both views is without a doubt, Scripturally Sound.
I understand the feeling. Thought I had it all figured out several times...when I was pre-trib, mid-trib, and pre-wrath lol. I have progressively stepped through all types of rapture positions in my journey to where I am at today. Bottom line is for me that Post-Wrath best fits what I read in scriptures or what I think I read anyway. There are still many holes in my understanding but piece by piece it all seems to fit together quite nicely from the big perspective. I have issues in my theory but that is why I call it a theory after all.
I used to joke with Orange that we are only microseconds apart in our understanding. He views Pre-Wrath in a unique manner that brings his theory very close to mine where I literally believe what he and I debate over could be a couple of microseconds. With all that being said let me try to show you why I think Pre-wrath falls just a bit short. First I want to reference back to the days being shortened conversation above. The verses from Mark resolve the issue from my perspective just wanted to put that out first to counter their most used argument about the days being cut short. Matthew and Rev 7 say the same thing it is just harder to see in Rev 7. Let me try to explain it.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The most important thing, as in all scripture, is context. To understand any one or two verses in scripture we need to read the chapters surrounding the text in question. It's like trying to figure out what a whole book means by one sentence. Obviously we need to read paragraphs and chapters to get a better idea about what the book is saying. Same thing in this case especially. Pre-wrath takes Rev 7 by itself and doesn't really consider Rev 6 in the process.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You are correct about Matt 24 it is obvious by the phrase "Immediately after the trib of those days"......Can't be much clearer than that. The cosmic signs (sun/moon/earth dark) occur immediately after the tribulation ends. They also always occur just before Jesus arrives. Joel makes that clear for us.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
The cosmic signs occur before the DOTL but after the tribulation. That is exactly what we see in Matt 24 as well.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Everywhere that we see the cosmic signs in scripture they are associated with God returning to earth. They are never mentioned in isolation but rather always in association with the return of God to this earth.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Here again in Rev 6 we see the cosmic signs. To be consistent with the other places we see the cosmic signs we would expect to see God returning to earth at that point. And sure enough we see men trying to hide from Jesus as He returns with the wrath of God. So here once again we see the cosmic signs presented in association with the return of God to earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
We see that there are still brethren to be killed as the ones under the altar were at the 5th seal. So the tribulation of those days continues through the 5th seal and then we see the cosmic signs, which always precede the return of God, followed by men hiding in the rocks from the face of Jesus.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24 is clear. Cosmic signs and then ALL the tribes of the earth mourn and they will see the Son of man and then finally the angels gather the elect. Now let's look again at Rev 6-7.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So in summary we have tribulation saints waiting to be killed at the 5th seal. Then we see the cosmic signs which occur immediately after the 5th seal. Jesus returns in wrath removing the tares (that's why they try to hide in the rocks from the great day of His wrath). We see that in Matt 24:30 where all the tribes of the earth are mourning when they see Jesus. They are mourning because He is arriving in wrath. Why else would they mourn the glorious return of Christ? Why hide in the rocks? Then we see that the great day of His wrath has come and after that we see the raptured saints in heaven in Rev 7. Rev 7 simply continues the conversation started in Rev 6 let me show you.
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
The first verse of Rev 7 says "And after these things". That directly connects Rev 7 back to the things we had just read about in Rev 6. This is a rewind moment back to before the wrath of God. They aren't to hurt the earth until the servants of God had been sealed. The wrath has come in Rev 6 already so this is just an expansion of the idea we read about in Rev 6 or further details if you will. And after these things connect Rev 7 back to what we read in Rev 6. I feel that pre-wrath does not understand this issue or doesn't want to understand that point.
If we have clear scriptures, like Matt 24, that say one thing and not so clear scriptures, Rev 7, saying another opposite thing; one of the two things is wrong or misunderstood because there are no conflicts in scripture. Seems to me that it would be very difficult to change Matthew 24 to pre-wrath and a simple matter to follow the flow of scripture out of Rev 6 into Rev 7 which would then confirm what we read in Matt 24. Pre-wrath has do some pretty tricky acrobatics to get their theory to work.
That is why Orange doesn't prescribe to traditional pre-wrath. He recognized the biblical inconsistencies of typical pre-wrath and has made a good attempt to reconcile some of those issues. But as you see above I think they miss the point that Rev 6-7 flow together as part of the same story. Same as the being cut short issue. They found enough wiggle room in Matt 24:22 to develop a theory but failed to see that Mark adds further information that enables us to see that the time is not to be cut short but rather has already been cut short. I'll address your other questions in another post now that I have laid the ground work. Good questions and like I say I fully understand the contradiction you see because I saw it too and that is why my time as pre-wrath was very short.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
One other thing to consider is the resurrection. The "dead in Christ rise first" and then we are raptured. There must be a resurrection prior to the rapture. Pre-wrath fails as bad as pre-trib does on that issue. The "first" resurrection is shown in Rev 20:4. That occurs after Armageddon and the beginning of the 1,000 years. That is evident because prior to reading about the "first" resurrection Satan is bound for 1,000 years in Rev 20. Pre-wrath can't happen before Rev 20:4 does because that is where we find the "first" resurrection.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Pre-wrathers hate words like first and last lol. I will continue in another post and address your other issues.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:46 am
Hi Mr. Baldy,
Great questions that are exactly why I started this thread in the first place; to iron out what actually occurs during the DOTL as scripture describes it. It is very confusing and honestly I am far from understanding the whole sequence of events. Perhaps as we explore these things we can find some insight. I can answer part of your questions though. Best place to start is where we see the most direct explanation of the rapture.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I believe Paul gives us the most details concerning the actual rapture here in 1Th4. I have been pointing out that the dead in Christ rise before we are raptured. That little detail is vital to our understanding. We are not going to be raptured until after the dead in Christ rise first. Find the dead in Christ rising in scripture and you have found the rapture because the dead rise first before we are raptured. There isn't a lot said about the rapture so the resurrection part is necessary for us to understand the rapture. Where ever we see a resurrection of the dead in Christ in scripture is where we know the rapture is also. The first resurrection in scripture is Rev 20:4 which is after Armageddon in Rev 19. Simple we aren't raptured until after the resurrection in Rev 20:4. We can debate about when Rev 20:4 occurs but I would say it is quite clear that it doesn't occur until after Rev 19.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Here again we see that Armageddon does not occur until very late in the vial judgements. Notice also Jesus says He comes as a thief and instructs that Blessed are those that watch for him. That is another quick proof for the timing of the return of Jesus at Armageddon.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
We are told that God will bring those that sleep in Jesus with Him. Those that sleep in Jesus would be the "dead in Christ". So now we know something new. Not only do the dead in Christ rise first but God brings the dead in Christ with Him. Do you see that?
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Here we see Jesus leaving heaven to head to earth for Armageddon. Notice the armies of heaven followed Him. If He is in heaven and they follow Him they are in heaven also. So who could that be? Hint they are dressed in white.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Here they are waiting for vengeance but they have to wait until the rest are killed as they were (end of tribulation). Then we see Jesus return during the 6th seal. The ones that are with Jesus in the clouds are the dead in Christ. They rise first and God brings them with Him at Armageddon. Again notice this group in Rev 6 is dressed in "white robes" just like what we see in Rev 7. That also connects the group from Rev 6 to the group from Rev 7.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
So the dead in Christ are waiting under the altar in heaven. They rise first and join Jesus to head to the earth. Now is where it gets hazy to me. To satisfy the dead in Christ rise first they are resurrected and return to earth with Jesus. To satisfy the wheat/tares and net parables the sinners are removed first and from among the saints. So microseconds before we are raptured God and the "dead in Christ" remove the sinners and we meet the Lord in the air to be ever with Him. That is the only way I can reconcile all the scriptures and why I prescribe to Post-Wrath. The dead in Christ must rise first is really what no other rapture position can account for and remain true to the other scriptures describing the same events. Post-Wrath is the only way I can see to make all the scriptures I find true with the fewest problems.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Pre-Wrath will also argue that Rev 14 supports their position. They say the saints are removed in Rev 14:16 and the sinners after that. Again I think it is actually that they don't carefully read what is written. From Matt 13 we know that the sinners are removed from among the saints during the same harvest. Both groups are shown being harvested in the same single harvest. If that is true then there are not 2 harvests so Rev 14 could only be talking about one harvest to be consistent with Matt 13. Rev 14:16 says the "earth was reaped". Since Matt 13 says both groups are harvested at the same time I know that the earth being reaped would have to include both groups.
So when it says the earth was reaped it was reaped as explained in the wheat and net parables. Rev 14:17 begins a new description of the same event like we find many times in the book of Rev. With that understanding Rev 14 does not support pre-wrath. So from my perspective each time pre-wrath presents an argument a simple solution can be found that does not contradict scripture as pre-wrath has to do in order for their theory to remain viable. If I were to provide one argument it would be that the dead in Christ must rise first and pre-wrath has that happening before Rev 20:4 which is set after Armageddon. The fact that the resurrection has to occur first limits most interpretations while it supports Post-Wrath. The reason I chose Post-Wrath was to differentiate it from Pre-Wrath since they are both technically Post-Trib.
Feel free to add more questions or point out weaknesses in my observations. Iron sharpens iron and I need sharp iron for this thread :)
Peace,
Seeker
Ok Seeker......please tell me: Are we being "gathered together unto Him in the Air/Clouds" as He descends at His Return AFTER the Great Tribulation?" Or are we "gathered together" prior to His Wrath, and appear before the Throne - as He descends gradually while His Wrath is being poured out on the Earth?
I mean what is going on at our Gathering unto Him - how long is His Wrath being poured out on the Earth - and what are those who have been gathered unto Him doing? Are we hovering in the Clouds - I mean I am just completely lost after Scripture mentions the Rapture in both Matthew 24 and how it connects to Revelation 7.
Great questions that are exactly why I started this thread in the first place; to iron out what actually occurs during the DOTL as scripture describes it. It is very confusing and honestly I am far from understanding the whole sequence of events. Perhaps as we explore these things we can find some insight. I can answer part of your questions though. Best place to start is where we see the most direct explanation of the rapture.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I believe Paul gives us the most details concerning the actual rapture here in 1Th4. I have been pointing out that the dead in Christ rise before we are raptured. That little detail is vital to our understanding. We are not going to be raptured until after the dead in Christ rise first. Find the dead in Christ rising in scripture and you have found the rapture because the dead rise first before we are raptured. There isn't a lot said about the rapture so the resurrection part is necessary for us to understand the rapture. Where ever we see a resurrection of the dead in Christ in scripture is where we know the rapture is also. The first resurrection in scripture is Rev 20:4 which is after Armageddon in Rev 19. Simple we aren't raptured until after the resurrection in Rev 20:4. We can debate about when Rev 20:4 occurs but I would say it is quite clear that it doesn't occur until after Rev 19.
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Here again we see that Armageddon does not occur until very late in the vial judgements. Notice also Jesus says He comes as a thief and instructs that Blessed are those that watch for him. That is another quick proof for the timing of the return of Jesus at Armageddon.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
We are told that God will bring those that sleep in Jesus with Him. Those that sleep in Jesus would be the "dead in Christ". So now we know something new. Not only do the dead in Christ rise first but God brings the dead in Christ with Him. Do you see that?
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Here we see Jesus leaving heaven to head to earth for Armageddon. Notice the armies of heaven followed Him. If He is in heaven and they follow Him they are in heaven also. So who could that be? Hint they are dressed in white.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Here they are waiting for vengeance but they have to wait until the rest are killed as they were (end of tribulation). Then we see Jesus return during the 6th seal. The ones that are with Jesus in the clouds are the dead in Christ. They rise first and God brings them with Him at Armageddon. Again notice this group in Rev 6 is dressed in "white robes" just like what we see in Rev 7. That also connects the group from Rev 6 to the group from Rev 7.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
So the dead in Christ are waiting under the altar in heaven. They rise first and join Jesus to head to the earth. Now is where it gets hazy to me. To satisfy the dead in Christ rise first they are resurrected and return to earth with Jesus. To satisfy the wheat/tares and net parables the sinners are removed first and from among the saints. So microseconds before we are raptured God and the "dead in Christ" remove the sinners and we meet the Lord in the air to be ever with Him. That is the only way I can reconcile all the scriptures and why I prescribe to Post-Wrath. The dead in Christ must rise first is really what no other rapture position can account for and remain true to the other scriptures describing the same events. Post-Wrath is the only way I can see to make all the scriptures I find true with the fewest problems.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Pre-Wrath will also argue that Rev 14 supports their position. They say the saints are removed in Rev 14:16 and the sinners after that. Again I think it is actually that they don't carefully read what is written. From Matt 13 we know that the sinners are removed from among the saints during the same harvest. Both groups are shown being harvested in the same single harvest. If that is true then there are not 2 harvests so Rev 14 could only be talking about one harvest to be consistent with Matt 13. Rev 14:16 says the "earth was reaped". Since Matt 13 says both groups are harvested at the same time I know that the earth being reaped would have to include both groups.
So when it says the earth was reaped it was reaped as explained in the wheat and net parables. Rev 14:17 begins a new description of the same event like we find many times in the book of Rev. With that understanding Rev 14 does not support pre-wrath. So from my perspective each time pre-wrath presents an argument a simple solution can be found that does not contradict scripture as pre-wrath has to do in order for their theory to remain viable. If I were to provide one argument it would be that the dead in Christ must rise first and pre-wrath has that happening before Rev 20:4 which is set after Armageddon. The fact that the resurrection has to occur first limits most interpretations while it supports Post-Wrath. The reason I chose Post-Wrath was to differentiate it from Pre-Wrath since they are both technically Post-Trib.
Feel free to add more questions or point out weaknesses in my observations. Iron sharpens iron and I need sharp iron for this thread :)
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:00 pm
Hi Seeker,
I've been a bit under the weather, so I've not had a chance to really digest what you have responded with. This flu nonsense that is going around really has me feeling bad. I briefly read what you have responded to - and I thank you. I'm not 100% at this moment, so I will respond when I'm feeling better.
I did however notice that you have Christ returning at the 6th Seal - I would like to know at what point in your studies, do you have His Wrath being poured out; how does this work in conjunction with our gathering unto Him - and last but not least, I will review Revelation 14 and get back with you concerning it's connection to the Rapture as well.
Sorry for the limited response....but I promise to return with a more insightful understanding to what you have written along with more questions.
I've been a bit under the weather, so I've not had a chance to really digest what you have responded with. This flu nonsense that is going around really has me feeling bad. I briefly read what you have responded to - and I thank you. I'm not 100% at this moment, so I will respond when I'm feeling better.
I did however notice that you have Christ returning at the 6th Seal - I would like to know at what point in your studies, do you have His Wrath being poured out; how does this work in conjunction with our gathering unto Him - and last but not least, I will review Revelation 14 and get back with you concerning it's connection to the Rapture as well.
Sorry for the limited response....but I promise to return with a more insightful understanding to what you have written along with more questions.
- Mr Baldy
- Posts: 2503
- Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
- Location: San Antonio, Tx
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by burien1 on Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:18 am
Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Seeker,
I've been a bit under the weather, so I've not had a chance to really digest what you have responded with. This flu nonsense that is going around really has me feeling bad. I briefly read what you have responded to - and I thank you. I'm not 100% at this moment, so I will respond when I'm feeling better.....
Psalm 119:105; Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
-
burien1 - MODERATOR
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- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:57 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:27 am
Hi Mr. Baldy,
Sorry to hear you are under the weather. I have had my share of it this year as well. Had it pretty bad a few weeks ago myself. Will keep you in my prayers and try not to write anything to make you sicker lol. Take your time I was wanting to work on this thread anyway so your questions will help do that and are much appreciated.
Let me briefly explain why I see Jesus returning at the 6th seal first to set a back drop to the rest of our discussion. The main most obvious reason is that we see the cosmic signs that we see in Matt 24 at the 6th seal.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The 5th seal shows the tribulation that ends with the cosmic signs appearing. That is the same thing we see in Matt 24. In fact each time we see these cosmic signs God is returning to earth soon after. If Jesus does return at the 6th seal then why the rest of the trumpets and vials? The reason is that the seals/trumpets/vials run in parallel with each other. When we look at the verses in the trumpets and vials we can also see Jesus returning. In fact it is always at the same point in the sequence. In each case of the seals/trumpets/vials we can see Jesus returning between the 6th and 7th of each. Obviously the 6th seal is one place that we see Jesus return to earth. Men are trying to hide in the rocks from Him and the Wrath of God.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Heaven departed as a scroll, every mountain and island were moved out of its place. How else could we characterize these verses that say every mountain and island are moved out of their place and the heavens rolling up as a scroll? There are only two places in the bible where the word scroll is used. Rev 6 and here.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
The other place "scroll" is used is here in Isaiah 34. Notice the wrath language surrounding the scroll rolling event. Also read Isaiah 13 and Joel 1-3 to see what events are described with the cosmic signs.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Each time that we see the cosmic signs in scripture they are related to the wrath of God and His return to earth. The 6th seal also shows the sun/moon darkened and the wrath of God. That is why all the tribes of earth mourn when they see Jesus arriving in the clouds in Matt 24. With all that scripture confirming that the cosmic signs are associated with the return of God and His wrath, the 6th seal is the return of Jesus in wrath as well. The cosmic signs are the key to understanding the DOTL. Both Paul and Peter equate the DOTL to the return of Jesus.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that he day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Here we see that they both equate the DOTL to the return of Jesus that they are speaking of in context. The DOTL is the Old Testament version of the return of Jesus. The cosmic signs make that critical connection for us. Notice also that they both speak in apocalyptic terms associated with the return of Christ. Then sudden destruction comes upon them for example.
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Jesus shows that destruction comes to the sinners with His second coming.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
In fact everywhere we see the second return of Christ we see that it is accompanied by destruction of the sinners if we look closely for it. For example all tribes of earth mourning when they see Jesus in the clouds in Matt 24. Now back to Revelation.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Here are the three places that we see Jesus returning in the seals/trumpets/vial judgments. By the context it is obvious Jesus has returned especially in the trumpets. The kingdoms of the world become God's, the nations were angry, thy wrath is come, and then we see a resurrection. Rev 16 shows Jesus returning at Armageddon. Jesus doesn't return 3 different times so these are all speaking of the same return of Christ. Since they all occur between the 6th and 7th of each type of judgment, that leads me to believe that the seals/trumpets/vials all occur during the same timeframe. I am not sure how they all relate to each other but do know that at the 7th of each of them we see Jesus returning to earth.
Jesus returning is the grand finale of the wrath. It begins sometime during the last 3 1/2 years and sees its climax at the return of Jesus. Jesus finishes off the tares at Armageddon which is the time that he returns. We can know that for sure let me show you why.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
We are given a very big hint here. "Immediately" after the tribulation of those days ends we have the cosmic signs which precede the return of Christ. Just as soon as the tribulation ends we have the cosmic signs. That tells us the beginning of the trib.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The tribulation is 3 1/2 years long. Now all we need to know is when does the trib begin.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Jesus tells us that the worst trib the world ever has or will ever see begins at the midpoint of the last 7 years or at the 3.5 year mark. Year 3.5 plus 3 1/2 years gets us to the end of the last 7 years or Armageddon. So the trib begins at the AOD and ends 3 1/2 years later. Immediately after the trib (3 1/2 years) we have the cosmic signs followed by the return of Christ. Regardless of which way we look at it the return of Jesus is shown to occur at the end of the last 7 years.
Thus Pre-wrath and Pre-trib do not accurately describe the second return of Christ when we consider all the scriptures. Pre-Wrath has to shorten the 3 1/2 years or their theory does not work at all. When they shorten the trib then scripture doesn't support their theory because we can clearly see scripture totally points to the return of Christ at the end of the last 7 years just before the resurrection of Rev 20:4. We must have a resurrection before we are raptured to fulfill the dead in Christ rising first. The resurrection also confirms the timing of the rapture to be at the end of the last 7 years or somewhere close to that anyway.
This is why pre-wrathers will fight tooth and nail for the shortened trib period they have to. Personally I will just read the words as written and believe they mean exactly what they say. Pre-wrath has to say the first resurrection of Rev 20 is not the first resurrection. They must deny that Jesus said the resurrection occurs on the last day and they have to change a clearly defined time of 3 1/2 years to some unmentioned shorter period of time. I simply believe if we read it as written it makes perfect since with no need to change any part of scripture to make it work.
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of earth become the kingdoms of God. Since the seals/trumpets/vials run in parallel the 7th of each occurs very near the end of the last 7 years. The 5th trumpet has a duration of 5 months. This tells me that it occurs at least 5 months before the 7th trumpet. Since the 7th trumpet is the return of Christ we can say that the trumpet judgments begin at least 5 months prior to the end of the last 7 years. This makes sense when we remember God is giving them as much time as possible to repent during the 7 years before Christ returns at Armageddon to finish the tares off. There is additional proof that we have judgments from God during the last 3 1/2 years.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
The two witnesses prophesy during the last 3 1/2 years because they are killed just before the 7th trumpet which occurs at the end of the last 7 years. They are given power to smite the earth with plagues as often as they will. Picture Moses and Egypt. I believe the two witnesses actually dispense parts of the wrath of God during the last 3 1/2 years. Like Moses God ratchets up the severity the longer they resist His call to repentance. So I think the wrath of God actually begins sometime during the testimony of the two witnesses. Either that or they have additional plagues besides what we read about in the seals/trumpets/vials. Regardless they will be sending plagues during the final 3 1/2 years which I consider as part of the wrath of God. At the very least the 5th trumpet has to be 5 months before the 7th trumpet or return of Christ.
That should keep you busy for a bit lol....feel free to ask for clarification as I am typing this in a hurry I have an appointment to get to. Take care and get plenty of rest, fluid, and prayers.
Peace,
Seeker
Sorry to hear you are under the weather. I have had my share of it this year as well. Had it pretty bad a few weeks ago myself. Will keep you in my prayers and try not to write anything to make you sicker lol. Take your time I was wanting to work on this thread anyway so your questions will help do that and are much appreciated.
I did however notice that you have Christ returning at the 6th Seal - I would like to know at what point in your studies, do you have His Wrath being poured out; how does this work in conjunction with our gathering unto Him - and last but not least, I will review Revelation 14 and get back with you concerning it's connection to the Rapture as well.
Let me briefly explain why I see Jesus returning at the 6th seal first to set a back drop to the rest of our discussion. The main most obvious reason is that we see the cosmic signs that we see in Matt 24 at the 6th seal.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The 5th seal shows the tribulation that ends with the cosmic signs appearing. That is the same thing we see in Matt 24. In fact each time we see these cosmic signs God is returning to earth soon after. If Jesus does return at the 6th seal then why the rest of the trumpets and vials? The reason is that the seals/trumpets/vials run in parallel with each other. When we look at the verses in the trumpets and vials we can also see Jesus returning. In fact it is always at the same point in the sequence. In each case of the seals/trumpets/vials we can see Jesus returning between the 6th and 7th of each. Obviously the 6th seal is one place that we see Jesus return to earth. Men are trying to hide in the rocks from Him and the Wrath of God.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Heaven departed as a scroll, every mountain and island were moved out of its place. How else could we characterize these verses that say every mountain and island are moved out of their place and the heavens rolling up as a scroll? There are only two places in the bible where the word scroll is used. Rev 6 and here.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
The other place "scroll" is used is here in Isaiah 34. Notice the wrath language surrounding the scroll rolling event. Also read Isaiah 13 and Joel 1-3 to see what events are described with the cosmic signs.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Each time that we see the cosmic signs in scripture they are related to the wrath of God and His return to earth. The 6th seal also shows the sun/moon darkened and the wrath of God. That is why all the tribes of earth mourn when they see Jesus arriving in the clouds in Matt 24. With all that scripture confirming that the cosmic signs are associated with the return of God and His wrath, the 6th seal is the return of Jesus in wrath as well. The cosmic signs are the key to understanding the DOTL. Both Paul and Peter equate the DOTL to the return of Jesus.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that he day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Here we see that they both equate the DOTL to the return of Jesus that they are speaking of in context. The DOTL is the Old Testament version of the return of Jesus. The cosmic signs make that critical connection for us. Notice also that they both speak in apocalyptic terms associated with the return of Christ. Then sudden destruction comes upon them for example.
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Jesus shows that destruction comes to the sinners with His second coming.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
In fact everywhere we see the second return of Christ we see that it is accompanied by destruction of the sinners if we look closely for it. For example all tribes of earth mourning when they see Jesus in the clouds in Matt 24. Now back to Revelation.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Here are the three places that we see Jesus returning in the seals/trumpets/vial judgments. By the context it is obvious Jesus has returned especially in the trumpets. The kingdoms of the world become God's, the nations were angry, thy wrath is come, and then we see a resurrection. Rev 16 shows Jesus returning at Armageddon. Jesus doesn't return 3 different times so these are all speaking of the same return of Christ. Since they all occur between the 6th and 7th of each type of judgment, that leads me to believe that the seals/trumpets/vials all occur during the same timeframe. I am not sure how they all relate to each other but do know that at the 7th of each of them we see Jesus returning to earth.
Jesus returning is the grand finale of the wrath. It begins sometime during the last 3 1/2 years and sees its climax at the return of Jesus. Jesus finishes off the tares at Armageddon which is the time that he returns. We can know that for sure let me show you why.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
We are given a very big hint here. "Immediately" after the tribulation of those days ends we have the cosmic signs which precede the return of Christ. Just as soon as the tribulation ends we have the cosmic signs. That tells us the beginning of the trib.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The tribulation is 3 1/2 years long. Now all we need to know is when does the trib begin.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Jesus tells us that the worst trib the world ever has or will ever see begins at the midpoint of the last 7 years or at the 3.5 year mark. Year 3.5 plus 3 1/2 years gets us to the end of the last 7 years or Armageddon. So the trib begins at the AOD and ends 3 1/2 years later. Immediately after the trib (3 1/2 years) we have the cosmic signs followed by the return of Christ. Regardless of which way we look at it the return of Jesus is shown to occur at the end of the last 7 years.
Thus Pre-wrath and Pre-trib do not accurately describe the second return of Christ when we consider all the scriptures. Pre-Wrath has to shorten the 3 1/2 years or their theory does not work at all. When they shorten the trib then scripture doesn't support their theory because we can clearly see scripture totally points to the return of Christ at the end of the last 7 years just before the resurrection of Rev 20:4. We must have a resurrection before we are raptured to fulfill the dead in Christ rising first. The resurrection also confirms the timing of the rapture to be at the end of the last 7 years or somewhere close to that anyway.
This is why pre-wrathers will fight tooth and nail for the shortened trib period they have to. Personally I will just read the words as written and believe they mean exactly what they say. Pre-wrath has to say the first resurrection of Rev 20 is not the first resurrection. They must deny that Jesus said the resurrection occurs on the last day and they have to change a clearly defined time of 3 1/2 years to some unmentioned shorter period of time. I simply believe if we read it as written it makes perfect since with no need to change any part of scripture to make it work.
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Jesus returns at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of earth become the kingdoms of God. Since the seals/trumpets/vials run in parallel the 7th of each occurs very near the end of the last 7 years. The 5th trumpet has a duration of 5 months. This tells me that it occurs at least 5 months before the 7th trumpet. Since the 7th trumpet is the return of Christ we can say that the trumpet judgments begin at least 5 months prior to the end of the last 7 years. This makes sense when we remember God is giving them as much time as possible to repent during the 7 years before Christ returns at Armageddon to finish the tares off. There is additional proof that we have judgments from God during the last 3 1/2 years.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
The two witnesses prophesy during the last 3 1/2 years because they are killed just before the 7th trumpet which occurs at the end of the last 7 years. They are given power to smite the earth with plagues as often as they will. Picture Moses and Egypt. I believe the two witnesses actually dispense parts of the wrath of God during the last 3 1/2 years. Like Moses God ratchets up the severity the longer they resist His call to repentance. So I think the wrath of God actually begins sometime during the testimony of the two witnesses. Either that or they have additional plagues besides what we read about in the seals/trumpets/vials. Regardless they will be sending plagues during the final 3 1/2 years which I consider as part of the wrath of God. At the very least the 5th trumpet has to be 5 months before the 7th trumpet or return of Christ.
That should keep you busy for a bit lol....feel free to ask for clarification as I am typing this in a hurry I have an appointment to get to. Take care and get plenty of rest, fluid, and prayers.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Sonbeam on Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:23 am
Hi Seeker.
I believe like you do that our Lord's second coming will coincide with the opening of the 6th seal. Thank you for all
the scriptures you've quoted to support this.
Have you ever considered that the 6th and 7th seals might be opened out of sequence?
I wrote on this here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=66579
Blessings,
sonbeam
I believe like you do that our Lord's second coming will coincide with the opening of the 6th seal. Thank you for all
the scriptures you've quoted to support this.
Have you ever considered that the 6th and 7th seals might be opened out of sequence?
I wrote on this here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=66579
Blessings,
sonbeam
- Sonbeam
- Posts: 915
- Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
- Location: Central Texas
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:10 pm
Hi Sonbeam,
I hadn't ever considered that as I believe since they are numbered specifically in a numeric order that is the order they are meant to be in. I reviewed your thread and noticed that your theory leads you to the conclusion that the wrath of God occurs after the rapture. I believe that scripture can be shown to support the rapture following the wrath of God as I also outline in my Post-Wrath thread here in the Post-Trib section. What is it specifically that leads you to believe the rapture is before the wrath?
Peace,
Seeker
Have you ever considered that the 6th and 7th seals might be opened out of sequence?
I hadn't ever considered that as I believe since they are numbered specifically in a numeric order that is the order they are meant to be in. I reviewed your thread and noticed that your theory leads you to the conclusion that the wrath of God occurs after the rapture. I believe that scripture can be shown to support the rapture following the wrath of God as I also outline in my Post-Wrath thread here in the Post-Trib section. What is it specifically that leads you to believe the rapture is before the wrath?
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mr Baldy on Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:48 pm
Hi Seeker.....
Now that I'm feeling just a wee bit better, let's take a look at what you have written.....
You wrote:
And provided this passage of Scripture:
Ok....the aforementioned describes what has occurred at the opening of the 5th Seal. This includes those who were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held - they are under the alter and are told that they should rest yet for a little season. As I have questioned, and you have answered, you have Jesus Returning at the 6th Seal in which the cosmic signs are given at it's opening. Now this is where I see a problem:
In Matthew 24:29 we have the sun darkened; the moon not giving it's light and the stars falling from the sky; along with the powers of heaven being shaken - now all of this appears to work in conjunction with the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12 - however I have read no evidence that this is the time in which Christ Returns. Let me explain......
Reading further in Revelation 6:13-17 what we have are "Cosmic Disturbances" along with a plea (from the wicked) to the mountains & rocks to fall on them and hide them from the "presence" of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb - the great day of their wrath has come. Now, the "presence" of Him, is quite different from His actual coming or descending down to the Earth. Let me add that in Matthew 24:30 it shows that the SIGN of the Son of Man appears in the sky prior to His actual coming. In mentioning this....we do not have a time frame in which this SIGN, whatever it is - or may be, is actually seen in the sky prior to His Return. This time frame can definitely vary - as the SIGN is given as a precursor to His actual Return.
I have mentioned this because again, we have in Revelation 7:9-14 that clearly shows a Multitude that no man can number that has appeared in Heaven before the Throne of God - and Scripture is very clear that these are those who have come out of the Great Tribulation.
Now, I have a series of questions for you ....if Christ is Returning to Earth at the 6th Seal, and His Wrath is being poured out as mentioned in Revelation 6 - what's going on with those souls who were under the alter, and have been told to wait until more have been slain - at what point are they resurrected? What's going on with the Multitude that appear in Heaven that have come out of the Great Tribulation at this point? Are they along with those who have been slain and are under the alter resurrected at the same time? And how can we have the Elect being gathered unto Him at His Return, if they have already been mentioned as being in Heaven, and have come out of the Great Tribulation? Also.....as mentioned, we clearly have the Wrath of the Lamb being poured out at the 6th Seal....if the wicked are being destroyed at that point what's the purpose of the Sheep & Goats Judgment at His Coming? (Matthew 25:31-46) I'm just trying to understand who would be left alive to Judge at His Coming - and who are the Righteous who are alive at that time to be separated from the wicked? And lastly......are the Righteous accompanying Him at the 6th Seal as He Returns as well - If so, where are they (location), and what are they doing?
In closing, the aforementioned are potential "holes" that I see in what you have written. Of course I'm not dogmatic about my questions being right, they have just come out of what you have written. I do have more questions.....but I will allow you to state your position on the aforementioned questions first.
I thank you in advance Seeker.
Now that I'm feeling just a wee bit better, let's take a look at what you have written.....
You wrote:
Seeker wrote:The 5th seal shows the tribulation that ends with the cosmic signs appearing.
And provided this passage of Scripture:
Seeker wrote:Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Ok....the aforementioned describes what has occurred at the opening of the 5th Seal. This includes those who were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held - they are under the alter and are told that they should rest yet for a little season. As I have questioned, and you have answered, you have Jesus Returning at the 6th Seal in which the cosmic signs are given at it's opening. Now this is where I see a problem:
In Matthew 24:29 we have the sun darkened; the moon not giving it's light and the stars falling from the sky; along with the powers of heaven being shaken - now all of this appears to work in conjunction with the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12 - however I have read no evidence that this is the time in which Christ Returns. Let me explain......
Reading further in Revelation 6:13-17 what we have are "Cosmic Disturbances" along with a plea (from the wicked) to the mountains & rocks to fall on them and hide them from the "presence" of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb - the great day of their wrath has come. Now, the "presence" of Him, is quite different from His actual coming or descending down to the Earth. Let me add that in Matthew 24:30 it shows that the SIGN of the Son of Man appears in the sky prior to His actual coming. In mentioning this....we do not have a time frame in which this SIGN, whatever it is - or may be, is actually seen in the sky prior to His Return. This time frame can definitely vary - as the SIGN is given as a precursor to His actual Return.
I have mentioned this because again, we have in Revelation 7:9-14 that clearly shows a Multitude that no man can number that has appeared in Heaven before the Throne of God - and Scripture is very clear that these are those who have come out of the Great Tribulation.
Now, I have a series of questions for you ....if Christ is Returning to Earth at the 6th Seal, and His Wrath is being poured out as mentioned in Revelation 6 - what's going on with those souls who were under the alter, and have been told to wait until more have been slain - at what point are they resurrected? What's going on with the Multitude that appear in Heaven that have come out of the Great Tribulation at this point? Are they along with those who have been slain and are under the alter resurrected at the same time? And how can we have the Elect being gathered unto Him at His Return, if they have already been mentioned as being in Heaven, and have come out of the Great Tribulation? Also.....as mentioned, we clearly have the Wrath of the Lamb being poured out at the 6th Seal....if the wicked are being destroyed at that point what's the purpose of the Sheep & Goats Judgment at His Coming? (Matthew 25:31-46) I'm just trying to understand who would be left alive to Judge at His Coming - and who are the Righteous who are alive at that time to be separated from the wicked? And lastly......are the Righteous accompanying Him at the 6th Seal as He Returns as well - If so, where are they (location), and what are they doing?
In closing, the aforementioned are potential "holes" that I see in what you have written. Of course I'm not dogmatic about my questions being right, they have just come out of what you have written. I do have more questions.....but I will allow you to state your position on the aforementioned questions first.
I thank you in advance Seeker.
- Mr Baldy
- Posts: 2503
- Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
- Location: San Antonio, Tx
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:12 pm
Hi Mr. Baldy,
Nice to see you back. I am going address a couple points you mentioned first before I get to your questions.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
True but we are given the timing for the cosmic signs. They occur "Immediately" after the 3 1/2 year tribulation that begins at the middle of the last 7 years. How long could the "sign" be after the cosmic signs since they occur at the end of the last 7 years?
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke states it a bit differently in his parallel account of events that I think are more accurate with his choice of inspired words. First in Luke 21:7 they ask "what sign will there be when these things come to pass"? When we get to Luke 21:25-27 we see the events leading up to the return of Jesus in Luke 21:27. Luke 21:25 tells us that there will be signs in the sun/moon/stars. The earth is in distress with mens heart failing them from fear of the things they see coming to the earth. The powers of heaven will be shaken and then they see the Son of man in the clouds. The only signs mentioned in Luke 21 are signs in the sun/moon/stars. He doesn't make any reference to the sign of Matt 24:30. The sign Luke speaks of in Luke 21:7 seems to me to be explained as signs in the sun/moon/stars in Luke 21:25.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Again in Mark the cosmic signs "after" that tribulation which we know to be 3 1/2 years long from several scriptures. The parallel account provided by Mark also doesn't indicate any sign besides the cosmic signs mentioned in Mark 13:24. Two out of three only list signs in the sun/moon/stars.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Let's look at the verse following the cosmic signs of Rev 6:12 and see if we can find other scripture with similar language. We see in 6:13 that it says the stars fall from heaven. Where else do we see stars falling from heaven in scripture?
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
The only places I can find stars falling from heaven, as in Rev 6:13, are in two accounts of the return of Christ. Perhaps you know of some other place that they can be found but I haven't found them falling anywhere else.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
We know the great tribulation begins around the midpoint of the last 7 years via Dan 9:27. We know it lasts 3 1/2 years from Dan 7 and Rev 13. Simple math gets us near the very end of the last 7 years for the end of the tribulation. Then following that we have the cosmic signs. Next we have what only Matthew describes as the sign of the Son of man. Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 all have 100% correct descriptions of the return of Christ since they are the words of God. So we have to find a way to account for the differences between the three. Two out of three don't mention that additional sign so that leads me to look for an explanation for the sign in Matt 24.
The cosmic signs are found in both the NT and OT. Looking at them all tells me the sun/moon/stars all go dark for some reason just before Jesus arrives. Imagine the night sky dark and void of stars and Jesus descending from heaven. What would we see? A very bright object approaching surrounded by darkness. So after the sun/moon/star are darkened it might appear as a bright star as there was before His birth on earth. In that respect Matthew is adding additional information to the same event that Luke and Mark record. The "sign" of Matthew 24:30 doesn't appear to be critical to our understanding of the return of Christ or surely it would have been included in either Mark or Luke's account of the same event.
Rev 6:16 AndG2532 saidG3004 to theG3588 mountainsG3735 andG2532 rocks,G4073 FallG4098 onG1909 us,G2248 andG2532 hideG2928 usG2248 fromG575 the faceG4383 of him that sittethG2521 onG1909 theG3588 throne,G2362 andG2532 fromG575 theG3588 wrathG3709 of theG3588 Lamb:G721
G4383
πρόσωπον
prosopon
pros'-o-pon
From G4314 and ώψ ops (the visage; from G3700); the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person: - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men’s) person, presence.
KJV uses Face which I shown the Strong's definition of above. Countenance is the expression on a persons face. That implies a physical description here. Appearance/surface/ X before they all imply a physical presence. The context of sitting on a throne implies a physical description as well. God's presence as you present it would imply a spirit type description which I don't see in this context. If I felt fear in my heart from the presence of God would it make sense to try to hide in the rocks of the mountains? As if that would do any good against a spirit presence. Just reading the words as they appear in context favors a physical meaning here. I will continue in another post to keep the length manageable.
Peace,
Seeker
Nice to see you back. I am going address a couple points you mentioned first before I get to your questions.
Let me add that in Matthew 24:30 it shows that the SIGN of the Son of Man appears in the sky prior to His actual coming. In mentioning this....we do not have a time frame in which this SIGN, whatever it is - or may be, is actually seen in the sky prior to His Return. This time frame can definitely vary - as the SIGN is given as a precursor to His actual Return.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
True but we are given the timing for the cosmic signs. They occur "Immediately" after the 3 1/2 year tribulation that begins at the middle of the last 7 years. How long could the "sign" be after the cosmic signs since they occur at the end of the last 7 years?
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke states it a bit differently in his parallel account of events that I think are more accurate with his choice of inspired words. First in Luke 21:7 they ask "what sign will there be when these things come to pass"? When we get to Luke 21:25-27 we see the events leading up to the return of Jesus in Luke 21:27. Luke 21:25 tells us that there will be signs in the sun/moon/stars. The earth is in distress with mens heart failing them from fear of the things they see coming to the earth. The powers of heaven will be shaken and then they see the Son of man in the clouds. The only signs mentioned in Luke 21 are signs in the sun/moon/stars. He doesn't make any reference to the sign of Matt 24:30. The sign Luke speaks of in Luke 21:7 seems to me to be explained as signs in the sun/moon/stars in Luke 21:25.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Again in Mark the cosmic signs "after" that tribulation which we know to be 3 1/2 years long from several scriptures. The parallel account provided by Mark also doesn't indicate any sign besides the cosmic signs mentioned in Mark 13:24. Two out of three only list signs in the sun/moon/stars.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Let's look at the verse following the cosmic signs of Rev 6:12 and see if we can find other scripture with similar language. We see in 6:13 that it says the stars fall from heaven. Where else do we see stars falling from heaven in scripture?
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
The only places I can find stars falling from heaven, as in Rev 6:13, are in two accounts of the return of Christ. Perhaps you know of some other place that they can be found but I haven't found them falling anywhere else.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
We know the great tribulation begins around the midpoint of the last 7 years via Dan 9:27. We know it lasts 3 1/2 years from Dan 7 and Rev 13. Simple math gets us near the very end of the last 7 years for the end of the tribulation. Then following that we have the cosmic signs. Next we have what only Matthew describes as the sign of the Son of man. Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 all have 100% correct descriptions of the return of Christ since they are the words of God. So we have to find a way to account for the differences between the three. Two out of three don't mention that additional sign so that leads me to look for an explanation for the sign in Matt 24.
The cosmic signs are found in both the NT and OT. Looking at them all tells me the sun/moon/stars all go dark for some reason just before Jesus arrives. Imagine the night sky dark and void of stars and Jesus descending from heaven. What would we see? A very bright object approaching surrounded by darkness. So after the sun/moon/star are darkened it might appear as a bright star as there was before His birth on earth. In that respect Matthew is adding additional information to the same event that Luke and Mark record. The "sign" of Matthew 24:30 doesn't appear to be critical to our understanding of the return of Christ or surely it would have been included in either Mark or Luke's account of the same event.
Reading further in Revelation 6:13-17 what we have are "Cosmic Disturbances" along with a plea (from the wicked) to the mountains & rocks to fall on them and hide them from the "presence" of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb - the great day of their wrath has come. Now, the "presence" of Him, is quite different from His actual coming or descending down to the Earth.
Rev 6:16 AndG2532 saidG3004 to theG3588 mountainsG3735 andG2532 rocks,G4073 FallG4098 onG1909 us,G2248 andG2532 hideG2928 usG2248 fromG575 the faceG4383 of him that sittethG2521 onG1909 theG3588 throne,G2362 andG2532 fromG575 theG3588 wrathG3709 of theG3588 Lamb:G721
G4383
πρόσωπον
prosopon
pros'-o-pon
From G4314 and ώψ ops (the visage; from G3700); the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person: - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men’s) person, presence.
KJV uses Face which I shown the Strong's definition of above. Countenance is the expression on a persons face. That implies a physical description here. Appearance/surface/ X before they all imply a physical presence. The context of sitting on a throne implies a physical description as well. God's presence as you present it would imply a spirit type description which I don't see in this context. If I felt fear in my heart from the presence of God would it make sense to try to hide in the rocks of the mountains? As if that would do any good against a spirit presence. Just reading the words as they appear in context favors a physical meaning here. I will continue in another post to keep the length manageable.
Peace,
Seeker
Last edited by Seeker on Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:20 pm
Hi Mr. Baldy,
If this group came out of "the" great tribulation what would be the timing of them coming out of the great tribulation? Once again the great tribulation begins at the midpoint of the last 7 years and lasts 3 1/2 years to the end of the last 7 years. That would mean that to get the whole multitude the great trib would have to be over which sets the timing for this multitude to the end of the last 7 years. The seal/trumpet/vial judgments are over by the end of the last 7 years. How would that fit a pre-wrath model? Also if there were a multitude that no man can number how could have that many came out of the great tribulation?
Would you agree that they cannot be resurrected until the resurrection? Or do you think they get a special resurrection, then the rest of the saints are resurrected, and then the GWTJ? I find no evidence in scripture for a special limited resurrection.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Do you think any of the multitude in Rev 7 are part of any of the groups mentioned as being raised at the last day? Both groups you mention have to be part of the group of all which He hath given Jesus and as such are raised on the last day. I find no evidence for a split elect resurrection. That being the case I have to say that what the bible calls the "first" resurrection is the resurrection of all the saints.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
This resurrection doesn't take place until after all have been beheaded who will be beheaded by the AC. His reign doesn't end until the end of the last 7 years. Therefore the resurrection of Rev 20:4 doesn't take place prior to the end of the reign of the AC, which is the end of the last 7 years. So since the multitude of Rev 7 are defined as trib saints by your question they couldn't all be in heaven until after Rev 20:4. When would you say Rev 20:4 takes place? That will answer your question.
Yes as I described above they are all raptured at the same time. Let's review the rapture scriptures once again.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The dead in Christ rise first before we who are alive and remain. There has to be a resurrection before we are raptured. Where ever you think a pre-wrath rapture might occur there must be a resurrection just before that. Find the pre-wrath resurrection of the dead in Christ and that will tell you when we are raptured. Before the angels gather the elect (rapture) in Matthew 24 we have the resurrection. In your view where do you see the resurrection that precedes the pre-wrath rapture?
Peace,
Seeker
I have mentioned this because again, we have in Revelation 7:9-14 that clearly shows a Multitude that no man can number that has appeared in Heaven before the Throne of God - and Scripture is very clear that these are those who have come out of the Great Tribulation.
If this group came out of "the" great tribulation what would be the timing of them coming out of the great tribulation? Once again the great tribulation begins at the midpoint of the last 7 years and lasts 3 1/2 years to the end of the last 7 years. That would mean that to get the whole multitude the great trib would have to be over which sets the timing for this multitude to the end of the last 7 years. The seal/trumpet/vial judgments are over by the end of the last 7 years. How would that fit a pre-wrath model? Also if there were a multitude that no man can number how could have that many came out of the great tribulation?
Now, I have a series of questions for you ....if Christ is Returning to Earth at the 6th Seal, and His Wrath is being poured out as mentioned in Revelation 6 - what's going on with those souls who were under the alter, and have been told to wait until more have been slain - at what point are they resurrected? What's going on with the Multitude that appear in Heaven that have come out of the Great Tribulation at this point?
Would you agree that they cannot be resurrected until the resurrection? Or do you think they get a special resurrection, then the rest of the saints are resurrected, and then the GWTJ? I find no evidence in scripture for a special limited resurrection.
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Do you think any of the multitude in Rev 7 are part of any of the groups mentioned as being raised at the last day? Both groups you mention have to be part of the group of all which He hath given Jesus and as such are raised on the last day. I find no evidence for a split elect resurrection. That being the case I have to say that what the bible calls the "first" resurrection is the resurrection of all the saints.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
This resurrection doesn't take place until after all have been beheaded who will be beheaded by the AC. His reign doesn't end until the end of the last 7 years. Therefore the resurrection of Rev 20:4 doesn't take place prior to the end of the reign of the AC, which is the end of the last 7 years. So since the multitude of Rev 7 are defined as trib saints by your question they couldn't all be in heaven until after Rev 20:4. When would you say Rev 20:4 takes place? That will answer your question.
Are they along with those who have been slain and are under the alter resurrected at the same time? And how can we have the Elect being gathered unto Him at His Return, if they have already been mentioned as being in Heaven, and have come out of the Great Tribulation?
Yes as I described above they are all raptured at the same time. Let's review the rapture scriptures once again.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The dead in Christ rise first before we who are alive and remain. There has to be a resurrection before we are raptured. Where ever you think a pre-wrath rapture might occur there must be a resurrection just before that. Find the pre-wrath resurrection of the dead in Christ and that will tell you when we are raptured. Before the angels gather the elect (rapture) in Matthew 24 we have the resurrection. In your view where do you see the resurrection that precedes the pre-wrath rapture?
Peace,
Seeker
Last edited by Seeker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
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- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Sonbeam on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:27 pm
Seeker wrote:Hi Sonbeam,Have you ever considered that the 6th and 7th seals might be opened out of sequence?
I hadn't ever considered that as I believe since they are numbered specifically in a numeric order that is the order they are meant to be in. I reviewed your thread and noticed that your theory leads you to the conclusion that the wrath of God occurs after the rapture. I believe that scripture can be shown to support the rapture following the wrath of God as I also outline in my Post-Wrath thread here in the Post-Trib section. What is it specifically that leads you to believe the rapture is before the wrath?
Peace,
Seeker
Hi Seeker,
I guess I misunderstood you. I didn't realize you believe Christians will be here while God pours His wrath on nonbelievers.
I believe otherwise.... that Christians will not. Here's why:
1 Thes 1:9,10
9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5:9,10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. says it like this,
Rom 5:9
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
Blessings,
sonbeam
- Sonbeam
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- Location: Central Texas
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:37 pm
Hi Mr. Baldy,
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
When does the Son of man come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him?
Mat_16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat_25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mar_8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Luk_9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Those are the other places I find Jesus coming in glory with His holy angels. So it looks like to me that the sheep and goats are separated when Jesus returns.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The wheat/sheep and the tares/goats are to grow together until the harvest. At the time of the harvest they are separated but not before that. Both groups are taken at the same time like we see in Matt 25. Notice that the tares are removed "first" that gives us the order of departure.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
We also know that God will bring those who sleep in Jesus with him to the rapture and we meet them in the air.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Here we see Jesus coming with the dead in Christ to execute judgment upon all the ungodly things. Those are the dead in Christ under the altar asking God to avenge their deaths which happens in Jude 1:15. God brings the dead in Christ with Him to execute judgment upon the sinners. Jesus executes judgment, the dead in Christ bodies are resurrected and we meet them in the air to ever be with the Lord. That satisfies the tares being removed before the wheat and also matches what we see in Rev 19.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jesus is seen here leaving heaven and His armies which were in heaven follow Him. These are the same ones Jude sees and defines as saints and I refer to as the dead in Christ. They kill the AC and company.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Jesus, with the dead in Christ, defeats the AC and company at Armageddon and then we see the first resurrection in Rev 20:4. We have other scriptures confirming Armageddon is when Jesus returns.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
There is no reason to be watching for Jesus if He is already been to earth nor could He be described as coming as a thief if He had already been here before this point in time. So again this all points to Jesus returning at the end of the last 7 years. Regardless of which angle we look at it we arrive at the same point in time for the return of Jesus. Pre-wrath just doesn't account for all the scriptures concerning the second coming of Jesus and creates contradictions.
If we read the scriptures as they are written without any changes pre-wrath falls flat on its face. They have to shorten the 3 1/2 years, argue that Jesus didn't mean the "last day" when He spoke of the resurrection, that the "first resurrection" isn't really the first resurrection, and the tares aren't taken first as both the wheat and net parables plainly state. Then they have to change the plain reading of the multitude of Rev 7 as well as that of Rev 14. Too many things in scriptures must be changed to arrive at a pre-wrath position which is why my journey into pre-wrath was a very short one.
Peace,
Seeker
Also.....as mentioned, we clearly have the Wrath of the Lamb being poured out at the 6th Seal....if the wicked are being destroyed at that point what's the purpose of the Sheep & Goats Judgment at His Coming? (Matthew 25:31-46) I'm just trying to understand who would be left alive to Judge at His Coming - and who are the Righteous who are alive at that time to be separated from the wicked? And lastly......are the Righteous accompanying Him at the 6th Seal as He Returns as well - If so, where are they (location), and what are they doing?
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
When does the Son of man come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him?
Mat_16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat_25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mar_8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Luk_9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Those are the other places I find Jesus coming in glory with His holy angels. So it looks like to me that the sheep and goats are separated when Jesus returns.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
The wheat/sheep and the tares/goats are to grow together until the harvest. At the time of the harvest they are separated but not before that. Both groups are taken at the same time like we see in Matt 25. Notice that the tares are removed "first" that gives us the order of departure.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
We also know that God will bring those who sleep in Jesus with him to the rapture and we meet them in the air.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Here we see Jesus coming with the dead in Christ to execute judgment upon all the ungodly things. Those are the dead in Christ under the altar asking God to avenge their deaths which happens in Jude 1:15. God brings the dead in Christ with Him to execute judgment upon the sinners. Jesus executes judgment, the dead in Christ bodies are resurrected and we meet them in the air to ever be with the Lord. That satisfies the tares being removed before the wheat and also matches what we see in Rev 19.
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jesus is seen here leaving heaven and His armies which were in heaven follow Him. These are the same ones Jude sees and defines as saints and I refer to as the dead in Christ. They kill the AC and company.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Jesus, with the dead in Christ, defeats the AC and company at Armageddon and then we see the first resurrection in Rev 20:4. We have other scriptures confirming Armageddon is when Jesus returns.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
There is no reason to be watching for Jesus if He is already been to earth nor could He be described as coming as a thief if He had already been here before this point in time. So again this all points to Jesus returning at the end of the last 7 years. Regardless of which angle we look at it we arrive at the same point in time for the return of Jesus. Pre-wrath just doesn't account for all the scriptures concerning the second coming of Jesus and creates contradictions.
If we read the scriptures as they are written without any changes pre-wrath falls flat on its face. They have to shorten the 3 1/2 years, argue that Jesus didn't mean the "last day" when He spoke of the resurrection, that the "first resurrection" isn't really the first resurrection, and the tares aren't taken first as both the wheat and net parables plainly state. Then they have to change the plain reading of the multitude of Rev 7 as well as that of Rev 14. Too many things in scriptures must be changed to arrive at a pre-wrath position which is why my journey into pre-wrath was a very short one.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:18 pm
Hi Sonbeam,
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
Jesus returns as a thief in the night. When they say peace and safety sudden destruction comes upon them. But you brethren are not in the darkness that that day should overtake you. How could that day overtake the brethren unless they were there? Also why are the brethren to watch if Jesus has already came and took them away?
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
It is true that God hasn't appointed us to wrath. Is a rapture the only way God could keep us from His wrath? Isn't it possible that God could protect us while His wrath was poured out?
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Jesus directly compares His return to the days of Noah and Lot. In both cases Noah and Lot were present while God's wrath rained down around them. Were they appointed to wrath because they were present when the wrath was poured out? Also when Moses was in Egypt they marked their houses with the blood of a lamb and were protected while the wrath of God killed the first born of Egypt. In all three cases God did not remove them from the earth while He poured out His wrath upon men. Jesus equates His second coming to what happen to Noah and Lot. Just like I pointed out earlier concerning the brethren and the sudden destruction. In almost every case that we see the return of Jesus we see two groups present, saints and sinners. The sinners are destroyed while the saints go to be with the Lord.
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven it is in flaming fire taking vengeance upon the sinners. Notice we also see the saints mentioned in that day. Both groups present with the sinners being removed just as we saw in the comparisons to Noah and Lot.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
One net was thrown and gathered of every kind. The good were kept while the bad were sorted out. Both groups, good and bad, present when the net is hauled into shore. They are both gathered at the same time. At the end of the world the angels severe the wicked/bad from among the just/good. In order for the bad to be removed from the good, the good have to be there at that time. One harvest both groups taken with the wicked removed first from among the just. These scriptures directly contradict the notion of two separate gatherings for the saints and sinners but rather teach that both saints and sinners are gathered during the same harvest.
Peace,
Seeker
1 Thessalonians 5:9,10
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. says it like this,
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
Jesus returns as a thief in the night. When they say peace and safety sudden destruction comes upon them. But you brethren are not in the darkness that that day should overtake you. How could that day overtake the brethren unless they were there? Also why are the brethren to watch if Jesus has already came and took them away?
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
It is true that God hasn't appointed us to wrath. Is a rapture the only way God could keep us from His wrath? Isn't it possible that God could protect us while His wrath was poured out?
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Jesus directly compares His return to the days of Noah and Lot. In both cases Noah and Lot were present while God's wrath rained down around them. Were they appointed to wrath because they were present when the wrath was poured out? Also when Moses was in Egypt they marked their houses with the blood of a lamb and were protected while the wrath of God killed the first born of Egypt. In all three cases God did not remove them from the earth while He poured out His wrath upon men. Jesus equates His second coming to what happen to Noah and Lot. Just like I pointed out earlier concerning the brethren and the sudden destruction. In almost every case that we see the return of Jesus we see two groups present, saints and sinners. The sinners are destroyed while the saints go to be with the Lord.
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven it is in flaming fire taking vengeance upon the sinners. Notice we also see the saints mentioned in that day. Both groups present with the sinners being removed just as we saw in the comparisons to Noah and Lot.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
One net was thrown and gathered of every kind. The good were kept while the bad were sorted out. Both groups, good and bad, present when the net is hauled into shore. They are both gathered at the same time. At the end of the world the angels severe the wicked/bad from among the just/good. In order for the bad to be removed from the good, the good have to be there at that time. One harvest both groups taken with the wicked removed first from among the just. These scriptures directly contradict the notion of two separate gatherings for the saints and sinners but rather teach that both saints and sinners are gathered during the same harvest.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mr Baldy on Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:02 pm
Hi Seeker....now let's take a look at what you have written. Below is what you have responded to in reference to my question concerning Revelation 7 and the multitude that no man can number that appears before the Throne of God:
Your response question concerning the "timing of those who have come out of the great tribulation" is really irrelevant as there is no Scriptural evidence that "great tribulation" ends at the last day of the final week. Jesus Himself gives absolutely no time period in which it ends - only that except "those days be cut short," no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect "those days will be cut short." (Matthew 24:22) Placing a "time period" on "great tribulation" which Jesus refers to - in relation to "THE great tribulation" in which the Book of Revelation refers to, and is highly symbolic leads to Huge Assumptions that many have made.
The aforementioned refers to the question that I asked you concerning the souls of those who are under the alter; and the great multitude that appear before the Throne of God as it relates to you having Christ Returning at the 6th seal - my question to you was at what point do you have them resurrected? Your response with John 6 is Great - and how Jesus Himself clearly states that all that the Farther has given Him He will raise them up at the Last Day. Did you notice that He said "All that the Father gives Me"? Here we get into the question of "Predestination" and "Free Will" - another topic, but I will address it for the sake of proving my point. There are those who are "Predestinated" without a doubt. We see examples of that with the greats like: Moses (my personal favorite); Paul; and the 12 Disciples; just to name a few. Then we have those who by the wooing of the Holy Spirit have come to God and fall under the "Free Will" category. This is a "calling" by God - but we must remember that all who are "called" are not necessarily "Chosen." Nevertheless, as Jesus refers to the "Last Day" we must identify what the "Last Day" means. I believe that we can both agree that the "Last Day" is certainly not referring to the "End of the World" - and perhaps it is not referring to the "End of the Age". Could it simply mean the "Last Day" is a continuous time period that God has Sovereignly set for those who will have part in the First Resurrection? (More on the resurrection later) Keep in mind that the Subject for this thread is: "Understanding the Day of the Lord" - which is certainly no 24 hour period as we know it.
Ok....Seeker now is time for information on the First Resurrection. I believe that you are making a huge assumption in attempting to qualify the First Resurrection as being one single event occurring at the same time - verses a time period that refers to one event. First of all you have those who have been beheaded which are clearly shown as souls who "come to life" and reign with Christ for 1,000 years (you appeared to have left the fact that they "come to life" out of Revelation 20:4) This is clearly a separate "Resurrection" that is mentioned in relation to the "Resurrection" of the righteous that occurs "At His Coming" - 1 Corinthians 15: 21-23:
21) For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming
The souls who "come to life" are mentioned separately as they are under the Throne - and "come to life" as the Millennial Kingdom begins. The we have the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11:7-12 who have a separate Resurrection as well - yet still considered to be a part of the First Resurrection. They are clearly witnessed by the wicked going up to Heaven - and a subsequent earthquake as the Wrath of God continues to be poured down on the Earth. Keep in mind that the Two Witnesses are given 3.5 years to testify - and they will lie in the streets for 3.5 days until they are Resurrected...so how could the the timing of their Resurrection and their 3.5 years of testimony both be at the Last Day?
In closing on this section......Seeker I am not suggesting that there is a Pre-Wrath Rapture, as I still have some more studying to do (But it sure does appear to be the case). What has not been answered thus far is what happens to those who are Rapture/Resurrected at His Coming in conjunction to what has been presented so far?
I will read your next section to see if you have answered. Thanking you for this study!
Seeker wrote:If this group came out of "the" great tribulation what would be the timing of them coming out of the great tribulation? Once again the great tribulation begins at the midpoint of the last 7 years and lasts 3 1/2 years to the end of the last 7 years. That would mean that to get the whole multitude the great trib would have to be over which sets the timing for this multitude to the end of the last 7 years. The seal/trumpet/vial judgments are over by the end of the last 7 years. How would that fit a pre-wrath model? Also if there were a multitude that no man can number how could have that many came out of the great tribulation?
Your response question concerning the "timing of those who have come out of the great tribulation" is really irrelevant as there is no Scriptural evidence that "great tribulation" ends at the last day of the final week. Jesus Himself gives absolutely no time period in which it ends - only that except "those days be cut short," no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect "those days will be cut short." (Matthew 24:22) Placing a "time period" on "great tribulation" which Jesus refers to - in relation to "THE great tribulation" in which the Book of Revelation refers to, and is highly symbolic leads to Huge Assumptions that many have made.
Seeker wrote:Would you agree that they cannot be resurrected until the resurrection? Or do you think they get a special resurrection, then the rest of the saints are resurrected, and then the GWTJ? I find no evidence in scripture for a special limited resurrection.Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
The aforementioned refers to the question that I asked you concerning the souls of those who are under the alter; and the great multitude that appear before the Throne of God as it relates to you having Christ Returning at the 6th seal - my question to you was at what point do you have them resurrected? Your response with John 6 is Great - and how Jesus Himself clearly states that all that the Farther has given Him He will raise them up at the Last Day. Did you notice that He said "All that the Father gives Me"? Here we get into the question of "Predestination" and "Free Will" - another topic, but I will address it for the sake of proving my point. There are those who are "Predestinated" without a doubt. We see examples of that with the greats like: Moses (my personal favorite); Paul; and the 12 Disciples; just to name a few. Then we have those who by the wooing of the Holy Spirit have come to God and fall under the "Free Will" category. This is a "calling" by God - but we must remember that all who are "called" are not necessarily "Chosen." Nevertheless, as Jesus refers to the "Last Day" we must identify what the "Last Day" means. I believe that we can both agree that the "Last Day" is certainly not referring to the "End of the World" - and perhaps it is not referring to the "End of the Age". Could it simply mean the "Last Day" is a continuous time period that God has Sovereignly set for those who will have part in the First Resurrection? (More on the resurrection later) Keep in mind that the Subject for this thread is: "Understanding the Day of the Lord" - which is certainly no 24 hour period as we know it.
Seeker wrote:Do you think any of the multitude in Rev 7 are part of any of the groups mentioned as being raised at the last day? Both groups you mention have to be part of the group of all which He hath given Jesus and as such are raised on the last day. I find no evidence for a split elect resurrection. That being the case I have to say that what the bible calls the "first" resurrection is the resurrection of all the saints. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. This resurrection doesn't take place until after all have been beheaded who will be beheaded by the AC. His reign doesn't end until the end of the last 7 years. Therefore the resurrection of Rev 20:4 doesn't take place prior to the end of the reign of the AC, which is the end of the last 7 years. So since the multitude of Rev 7 are defined as trib saints by your question they couldn't all be in heaven until after Rev 20:4. When would you say Rev 20:4 takes place? That will answer your question.
Ok....Seeker now is time for information on the First Resurrection. I believe that you are making a huge assumption in attempting to qualify the First Resurrection as being one single event occurring at the same time - verses a time period that refers to one event. First of all you have those who have been beheaded which are clearly shown as souls who "come to life" and reign with Christ for 1,000 years (you appeared to have left the fact that they "come to life" out of Revelation 20:4) This is clearly a separate "Resurrection" that is mentioned in relation to the "Resurrection" of the righteous that occurs "At His Coming" - 1 Corinthians 15: 21-23:
21) For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23) But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming
The souls who "come to life" are mentioned separately as they are under the Throne - and "come to life" as the Millennial Kingdom begins. The we have the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11:7-12 who have a separate Resurrection as well - yet still considered to be a part of the First Resurrection. They are clearly witnessed by the wicked going up to Heaven - and a subsequent earthquake as the Wrath of God continues to be poured down on the Earth. Keep in mind that the Two Witnesses are given 3.5 years to testify - and they will lie in the streets for 3.5 days until they are Resurrected...so how could the the timing of their Resurrection and their 3.5 years of testimony both be at the Last Day?
In closing on this section......Seeker I am not suggesting that there is a Pre-Wrath Rapture, as I still have some more studying to do (But it sure does appear to be the case). What has not been answered thus far is what happens to those who are Rapture/Resurrected at His Coming in conjunction to what has been presented so far?
I will read your next section to see if you have answered. Thanking you for this study!
- Mr Baldy
- Posts: 2503
- Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
- Location: San Antonio, Tx
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mr Baldy on Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:57 pm
Hi again Seeker,
This is a question that I asked:
You responded:
And this:
Ok Seeker, I don't believe I'm quite sure that I understand what you have written. First you state: "The wheat/sheep and the tares/goats are to grow together until the harvest. At the time of the harvest they are separated but not before that."
Then you state: We also know that God will bring those who sleep in Jesus with him to the rapture and we meet them in the air. And this: God brings the dead in Christ with Him to execute judgment upon the sinners. But in the same paragraph you write: Jesus executes judgment, the dead in Christ bodies are resurrected and we meet them in the air to ever be with the Lord.
Ok Seeker, which is it? Does the Sheep/Goats Judgment have a separation or not? The aforementioned that you have written appears to have an apparent contradiction. You can't very well have a Rapture - then a separation of the Wheat and Tares on the Earth if the Wheat is already in the air with the Lord and assist Him with "executing the sinners" upon His arrival. Please explain this.
Finally you write: Jesus is seen here leaving heaven and His armies which were in heaven follow Him. These are the same ones Jude sees and defines as saints and I refer to as the dead in Christ. They kill the AC and company.
I'll respond by saying this: First of all I've seen no evidence that the Body of Christ participates in the execution of the AC and company - only that they will Judge Angels. Furthermore the question still remains as to what actually happens to the Body of Christ if they accompany Him at the 6th Seal as you have previously mentioned?
In closing - you have mentioned Christ Returning at the 6th Seal based on what has been presented in Revelation 6:12; Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 - which all relate to "Cosmic Disturbances" or the "Sign" that appears which all occur before His actual Coming. Again, the "Cosmic Disturbances" occur prior to His actual Return - and there is no time limit provided in Scripture that would indicate just how long these events are going on prior to His Return. Could this "Sign" that appears actually be Jesus Himself who appears in the Sky and is Rapturing the Church at this time before He pours out His Wrath on the Earth?
I don't know....... but at this juncture, I'm not ruling this particular thought out.
This is a question that I asked:
Also.....as mentioned, we clearly have the Wrath of the Lamb being poured out at the 6th Seal....if the wicked are being destroyed at that point what's the purpose of the Sheep & Goats Judgment at His Coming? (Matthew 25:31-46) I'm just trying to understand who would be left alive to Judge at His Coming - and who are the Righteous who are alive at that time to be separated from the wicked? And lastly......are the Righteous accompanying Him at the 6th Seal as He Returns as well - If so, where are they (location), and what are they doing?
You responded:
Seeker wrote:The wheat/sheep and the tares/goats are to grow together until the harvest. At the time of the harvest they are separated but not before that. Both groups are taken at the same time like we see in Matt 25. Notice that the tares are removed "first" that gives us the order of departure.
And this:
Seeker wrote:We also know that God will bring those who sleep in Jesus with him to the rapture and we meet them in the air. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. Here we see Jesus coming with the dead in Christ to execute judgment upon all the ungodly things. Those are the dead in Christ under the altar asking God to avenge their deaths which happens in Jude 1:15. God brings the dead in Christ with Him to execute judgment upon the sinners. Jesus executes judgment, the dead in Christ bodies are resurrected and we meet them in the air to ever be with the Lord. That satisfies the tares being removed before the wheat and also matches what we see in Rev 19.
Ok Seeker, I don't believe I'm quite sure that I understand what you have written. First you state: "The wheat/sheep and the tares/goats are to grow together until the harvest. At the time of the harvest they are separated but not before that."
Then you state: We also know that God will bring those who sleep in Jesus with him to the rapture and we meet them in the air. And this: God brings the dead in Christ with Him to execute judgment upon the sinners. But in the same paragraph you write: Jesus executes judgment, the dead in Christ bodies are resurrected and we meet them in the air to ever be with the Lord.
Ok Seeker, which is it? Does the Sheep/Goats Judgment have a separation or not? The aforementioned that you have written appears to have an apparent contradiction. You can't very well have a Rapture - then a separation of the Wheat and Tares on the Earth if the Wheat is already in the air with the Lord and assist Him with "executing the sinners" upon His arrival. Please explain this.
Finally you write: Jesus is seen here leaving heaven and His armies which were in heaven follow Him. These are the same ones Jude sees and defines as saints and I refer to as the dead in Christ. They kill the AC and company.
I'll respond by saying this: First of all I've seen no evidence that the Body of Christ participates in the execution of the AC and company - only that they will Judge Angels. Furthermore the question still remains as to what actually happens to the Body of Christ if they accompany Him at the 6th Seal as you have previously mentioned?
In closing - you have mentioned Christ Returning at the 6th Seal based on what has been presented in Revelation 6:12; Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 - which all relate to "Cosmic Disturbances" or the "Sign" that appears which all occur before His actual Coming. Again, the "Cosmic Disturbances" occur prior to His actual Return - and there is no time limit provided in Scripture that would indicate just how long these events are going on prior to His Return. Could this "Sign" that appears actually be Jesus Himself who appears in the Sky and is Rapturing the Church at this time before He pours out His Wrath on the Earth?
I don't know....... but at this juncture, I'm not ruling this particular thought out.
- Mr Baldy
- Posts: 2503
- Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
- Location: San Antonio, Tx
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Seeker on Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:29 am
Hi Mr.Baldy,
First my computer crashed so using my phone to peck this out. Check what you wrote concernig the multitude of Rev 7. You said they came out of "the great tribulation". I was responding to what you wrote. I will try to get to a computer later to respond properly. Are you familiar with the net parable of Matt 13? Can you explain that parable for me while I work on my computer issues. I am curious as to why you have never discussed the net parable since I mention it in about every other post thanks.
Peace,
Seeker
First my computer crashed so using my phone to peck this out. Check what you wrote concernig the multitude of Rev 7. You said they came out of "the great tribulation". I was responding to what you wrote. I will try to get to a computer later to respond properly. Are you familiar with the net parable of Matt 13? Can you explain that parable for me while I work on my computer issues. I am curious as to why you have never discussed the net parable since I mention it in about every other post thanks.
Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
- Seeker
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm
Re: Understanding the "day of the LORD"
by Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:55 pm
Seeker wrote: Are you familiar with the net parable of Matt 13? Can you explain that parable for me while I work on my computer issues. I am curious as to why you have never discussed the net parable since I mention it in about every other post thanks.
Hi Seeker,
First let me apologize for not responding to the parable in Matthew 13 - I must have overlooked it. There are many parables there - but they all have the same ending. The parable of the Dragnet, in which you are referring to however, speaks of the "end of the age". The topic of your thread is: "Understanding the day of the Lord".
The question becomes what is the "End of the Age" in relation to "The Last Day" and the "Day of the Lord"? All of which you have tied together to explain why you believe in a Post Wrath Rapture; or that Christ Returns at the 6th Seal.
Let me being my explanation of it by saying that the "End of the Age" is the same as "The Last Day" as it refers to the 70th week - however, both work in harmony with the Day of the Lord - and the Day of the Lord is not a 24 hour period as we know it. The Day of the Lord Ends when the Millennial Rein of Christ has been completed - and this could mean "The Last Day" as well, but only as it refers to the End of the His Millennial Reign. The End refers to the time in which Christ has Reigned and placed the last enemy to be destroyed under His Feet - which is "Death". He then hands the Kingdom over to God the Father so that God may be all in All - (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).
When Christ provides the parable of the Dragnet we must understand when this occurs; it's location - and we must compare it to what has been written in other passages of Scripture. At the Sheep & Goats Judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) we see Christ coming to Earth and seated on His glorious throne. The Nations are described as being "gathered" before Him. He is the one who then separates the Good Sheep or (wheat) from the Evil Goats the (tares). If you'll continue to read a Judgment Sentence is given to the Evil Goats or (tares) and they "go away into eternal punishment". Now this appears to be in contrast with the parable of the Dragnet - which states that the angels are sent to "take out" the wicked from the righteous and "will throw them into the furnace of fire". But it is not.
After the Evil Goats are sentenced - it is at that point the angels are sent by Christ to "take out " those who are wicked and cast them into the furnace of fire to await the Great White Throne Judgment, in which the 2nd Resurrection occurs. Please notice that "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are described there - therefore this cannot be the "Lake of Fire" but Hades - where "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are described, and the Wicked dead go after they die to await the 2nd Resurrection at the GWTJ. Weeping and gnashing of teeth are NOT described there, as Death and Hell are cast into it - which is the FINAL DEATH. The Good Sheep or wheat are allowed to enter the Kingdom or barn.
If we are to understand the Millennial Reign of Christ we must also understand that there will be those who are alive at the Coming of Christ who will be allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies. We already know that Christ will Return with those who have been Raptured. So the question becomes - why is there a necessity to "separate the Sheep from the Goats"? Well the only plausible explanation is that we have those who will still be alive at His Coming - both the righteous and wicked. The Millennial Kingdom will be re-populated by those who have been allowed to enter the Kingdom in mortal bodies. Their offspring are the one's whom Satan will deceive and further send to attack the city of Jerusalem after he is let loose for "a little season" - which occurs AFTER the 1,000 year Rein of Christ is over.(Revelation 20:7-10)
The Eternal State begins - and the "Day of the Lord" is officially over. At least this is the way that I understand what is written - and I could be very wrong. Especially if the Sheep and Goats Judgment is one and the same as the GWTJ - but of course if this is the case, then there would be no Millennial Reign of Christ, and Everything Ends at His Coming.
- Mr Baldy
- Posts: 2503
- Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
- Location: San Antonio, Tx
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