Daniel 7:25

[Seeker]

Hi Jay,

Wasn't sure what to call your theory so just called it Dan 7:25 as that seems to be the point of contention that you raised in your last post.

It seems to me that your explanation in the post above is based on your understanding of what "'iddan" OT5732, a word of Aramaic origin, means in Daniel 7:25.

In Daniel 12:7 we have a similar expression to that found in Daniel 7:25 but this time a Hebraic word, "mow'(a)diyn" is used which is first used in Genesis 1:14 where it is translated as "seasons" and not days as you are suggesting as in Genesis 1:14 the next word that we have is "uwlyaamiym" which means days followed by "w(a)shaaniym" which has the meaning of years.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak4449 great words4406 against6655 the most High,5943 and shall wear out1080 the saints6922 of the most High,5946 and think5452 to change8133 times2166 and laws:1882 and they shall be given3052 into his hand3028 until5705 a time5732 and times5732 and the dividing6387 of time.5732

H5732
עדּן
‛iddan
id-dawn'
(Chaldee); from a root corresponding to that of H5708; a set time; technically a year: - time.

I use Strongs concordance as reference and they say it means year. You may be qualified to interpret the text but I don't know that. Strongs on the other hand I do know is a well known trusted source. No disrespect meant but I will have to accept the definition of Strongs over yours hope you understand.

Daniel's vision in Daniel 7 covered around 3,668 years (3.5K periods of divine time) yet you in your explanation have ignored the period of time and a season was set aside for the other three beasts to remain alive until their judgement time would come. If we consider rev 20 we know that this time period is 1,000 years plus a little while.

3,668 does not equal 3.5K it equals 3.668K. The judgment of the 3 other beasts is outside of the 3 1/2 year time period and should not be added to it. The time, times, and half is a description of a specific event.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Notice that they shall be given into to his hands for the time, times, and dividing of time. Who are they? They are the saints. For your scenario those saints would have to live to the ripe old age of 3,668. The other three beasts time period has nothing to do with the time period the saints are subject to the the beast as is described in Dan 7:25. It doesn't say that they (the saints) and the three beasts are given to his hand for time period it only mentions the saints. The other 3 are independent of the 4th. That can be proven with Dan 2. In Daniel 2 we see the same 4th kingdom spoken of.

Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The 4th kingdom that Daniel refers to here in Daniel 2 is a mixed bag made up of iron and clay. In the days of the kings,of the 4th kingdom, shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, not left to other people, and it shall stand forever. This has to be the same 4th kingdom we see in Dan 7 because the end of Daniel 7 has Jesus reigning over the kingdom also as is clear in the vision of Daniel 7. So this tells us that after these 10 kings of the 4th kingdom there are no other kingdoms but God reigns forever after. Same situation in Dan 7. Your theory seems to run contrary to what Dan 2 teaches here. Instead of having the kingdom of God set up in the days of the kings of the 4th kingdom you have the kingdom of God being set up 1,000 years after the ten kings reign has ended at Armageddon.

Yes I agree that we are fast approaching the time of the Armageddon Event, a time when Christ will be given dominion over all the peoples of the earth and that He will come as a thief at that time to make a covenant of peace with the nation of Israel, but the Scripture is silent as to whether he remains on the earth during the next age and instead suggests that he will reign as a Priest along with the People of the first resurrection in Heaven until the final victory is had when he will return with the Angels of Heaven to Judge the Peoples of the Earth. When he comes the second resurrection of all those who are in the ground will occur and those saints who are still alive at this time will be "raptured" to meet Him in the air before descending again for the Great Judgement of all of the peoples of the earth when the Saints who are judged righteous will receive their inheritance as Sons of the Living God.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Zec 2:10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Joe 3:21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.

Isa 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

I would have to disagree with your assertion that the bible is silent as to where the Lord is dwelling during the millennium. I would suggest rather that you haven't spent much time looking for it. As you can see even a brief review of your theory turns up a multitude of innaccuracies when compared to scripture.

Peace,
Seeker

[Jay Ross]

Seeker,

I am happy to discuss this in another thread but we are discussing the same problem of trying to fit a “pre-wrath” or a “pre-trib” theological understanding over what the Bible actually states.

Be that as it may be, your opening post contains many errors of understanding in it which we will address as time permits.

(from Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Copyright © 1980 by The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)

OT:5732 /D*u! (±idd¹n) time, period, span, year, era.(KJV always "time"; RSV always "time" except when the word is used in a temporal clause.) ±idd¹n is probably a loanword from Akkadian éad¹nu, ad¹nnu, ad¹nnu. Two basic meanings are equally a "point" in time or a "span" of time.

The word occurs thirteen times, all in Dan, with three shades of meaning. First in Daniel 3:5 and Daniel 3:15, ±idd¹n occurs in the temporal clause bê±idd¹n¹° dî, the literal meaning of which is "in the time of," or "at the time which." However, as the RSV has noted correctly, the phrase as a whole simply means "when," and is comparable in function to three other idiomatic expressions for "when" in Daniel 3; bah ša±t¹°, at the hour (v. 6); b¢h zimn¹°, at the time (v. 7), and the usual expression k®dî (also v. 7).

Second, ±idd¹n may be used as a synonym of z®m¹n to mean a specific length of time. In Daniel 2:8, King Nebuchadnezzar accuses the Chaldeans of attempting to stall for time (±idd¹n) and assures them that he is aware of their plans and will punish them severely unless they retell and then interpret his dream immediately. But in Daniel 2:16, Daniel's request for extra time (z®m¹n) is granted. Accordingly, he and his friends go to prayer so that God might reveal to them the information which the king is demanding. It is noteworthy that in this same chapter ±idd¹n is used in three different ways by the author. In addition to the meaning just discussed, Daniel 2:9 employs ±idd¹n to mean "situation" (NASB), i.e., circumstances. Later, in his prayer praising God for revealing the king's dream to him, Daniel proclaims that God is the one who changes "times and epochs" (±idd¹nayy¹° w®zimnayy¹° v. 21). In this context, ±idd¹n refers to far more than the brief moment of one tough circumstance comparable to that facing the would-be wise men of King Nebuchadnezzar. Rather this is testimony to the sovereign power of God to control the sweep of history.

Third, the function of ±idd¹n in Daniel 4 is somewhat problematic. In this chapter, verses Daniel 4:16,23,25, and Daniel 4:32 [A 13, 20, 22, 29] employ the phrase šib±â ±idd¹nîn, literally, "seven times" (KJV, RSV). However, the LXX, Josephus, and traditional Jewish commentators have understood the phrase to mean "seven years" (See J. J. Slotki, Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, London: The Soncino Press, 1951, p. 33). Still, it is not necessary to view ±idd¹n as a specific period in these verses, and the NASB translation, "seven periods of time" is probably preferable to anything more specific both in Daniel 4 and in Daniel 7:12.

The same thing must be said with respect to the occurence of ±idd¹n in Daniel 7:25 in the phrase "time, times and one-half a time" [±idd¹n w®idd¹nîn ûp®lag ±idd¹n]. In this key verse, several factors must be taken into consideration. First, MT ±idd¹nîn may not be translated "two times" (i.e. "two years"), but must be simply "times," i.e., plural rather than dual. If one chooses to interpret the second word as "two times" (RSV) one must repoint the consonants (i.e., ±iddanayin). Second, the phrase as a whole may simply be a conventional, apocalyptic way to indicate an indefinite period of time. Third, because of the difficulties involved in arriving at an interpretation of this phrase which is satisfying to a wide range of scholars, the translation of the phrase is better left as indefinite as the Aramaic original itself appears. Clearly ±idd¹n may mean either "time" or "year." But to press beyond this to a specific interpretation demanding the phrase "three and one-half years" is unwarranted. All that may be said with certainty is that Daniel 7 (along with Daniel 2 and Daniel 8-12) points to a period of time during which evil powers will appear to be in control of world affairs followed by a moment at which God will reassert his sovereignty in history and will bring to an end those forces which have worked against his kingdom.

[The above remarks are carefully considered and rightly urge caution in the interpretation of these expressions. Some may wish to add, however, that the similar Hebrew term is found in Daniel 12:7 which may perhaps be elucidated by the reference to the periods of 1290 and 1335 days in Daniel 12:12-13. Cf also Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5 and Revelation 12:6. R.L.H.] C.D.I.

(from Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

OT:5732 /D*u! noun masculineDaniel 2:9 time (ã id., Syriac , perhaps loan-word from Assyrian adannu, fixed, appointed, or definite, time; [Arabic probably Aramaic loan-word, SchwZMG liii (1899), 197]); — absolute þu Daniel 7:12 +; emphatic an`D*u! 2:8 +; plural absolute /yn]D*u! Daniel 4:13 +, emphatic aY`n~D*u! 2:21; — 1. in general, time, as duration Daniel 2:8; 7:12; involving specific conditions 2:9,21; (point of) time 3:5,15. 2. definite time, = year (as modern Greek “xro/no$”, see EASophocles1173): þu hu*b=v! = seven years, Daniel 4:13; Daniel 4:20; Daniel 4:22; Daniel 4:29; /D*u! gl^p=W /yn]D*u!w+ /D*u! 7:25 (i.e. 3 1/2 years, see Dr; perhaps read dual for plural, compare Bev GunkSchöpf. 201).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

OT:5732 /D*u! `iddan (Aramaic) (id-dawn'); from a root corresponding to that of OT:5708; a set time; technically, a year: KJV - time.

OT:5708 “du@” `ed (ayd); from an unused root meaning to set a period [compare OT:5710, OT:5749]; the menstrual flux (as periodical); by implication (in plural) soiling: KJV - filthy.

OT:5710 “hd*u*” `adah (aw-daw'); a primitive root; to advance, i.e. pass on or continue; causatively, to remove; specifically, to bedeck (i.e. bring an ornament upon): KJV - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.

OT:5749 ”Wu” `uwd (ood); a primitive root; to duplicate or repeat; by implication, to protest, testify (as by reiteration); intensively, to encompass, restore (as a sort of reduplication): KJV - admonish, charge, earnestly, lift up, protest, call (take) to record, relieve, rob, solemnly, stand upright, testify, give warning, (bear, call to, give, take to) witness.

Now, whenever I see the word “technical” in a definition of the meaning of a Hebrew word, I know that the author has no idea as to what the true meaning is and has rummaged through the Bible to find an understanding that might justify the “technical” meaning that he has provided.

Now let us clear a few things up. The time span for mankind in this our present form is given in the Bible by understanding the intended meaning of Ez 47:1-12 and its starting point of the Temple being dedicated when the presence of the Lord filled the Temple. We know fairly accurately that there was 3,168 years between Adam’s creation and the dedication of Solomon’s temple. The other piece of information is given as a measurement of time in cubits along the time axis of the tapestry of the prophecy of Ez 47:1-12 where a cubit can be taken to represent a year in time such that this prophecy represents a time period of 4,000 years.

Now adding these two time intervals together we end up with 7,168 years as to the period of time that man will have from the creation of Adam until the final judgement. This time period is exactly 7xk time periods and 3.5 time periods which is half of that time period is precisely 3,584 years. I must apologise because my maths was a little haywire in the other thread and gave the wrong time period. The reference to 3,668 years was wrong and it should have been 3,584 years

That being said, I did correctly indicate that it was 3.5 k long in duration which in this day and age a “k” is understood to means the number 1,024 or 2^10 in computer speak. I also know that “k” also has the meaning of 1,000 in the metric system, i.e. kg, km etc which adds to your miss understanding of what I am presenting. Interestingly, with good dexterity it is possible to count to 1,024 on the ten digits on our hands with a little practice.

Now you then go on to give your understanding of the Statue prophecy in Daniel 2 without understanding it meaning as well. Daniel 2 cannot be read without referring to Jeremiah 50-51 as Jeremiah 50-51 is also referring to the fourth and fifth segments of the Statue in Daniel 2.

Jeremiah tells us that there will be a period of desolation and devastation in the Land of the Chaldean’s which will last for around 2,048 years. That is why Daniel expressed some surprise that there was a fourth kingdom, the legs, which was followed fairly quickly by the fifth segment (Empire of many nations banded together). It is in the time of these “kings” that the Messianic Kingdom will be established on the foundation stone that Jesus is the Son of God. Jeremiah 50-51 also tells us when this portion of the Daniel 2 prophecy will be fulfilled. The period when the last two kingdom of Daniel 2 will be seen will be during the time that the descendants of Abraham begin to band together to start their journey to go up to Jerusalem.

That means that the fourth and fifth segments of the Daniel 2 prophecy is unfolding during this present time which means that the roman empire is not the Fourth Kingdom referred to in the Statue parable of Daniel 2. The works of Josephus tells us that the Greek empire dismantled and scattered the Chaldean kingdom before the Roman army even entered the land of the Chaldeans and as such they never had dominion over the land of the Chaldeans.

You then go on to make the common mistake like many other commentators of attempting to link the Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 prophecies together. The fourth terrible beast of Daniel 7 is not visible until after 571 CE, well after your claim that of the of the fourth Kingdom in Daniel 2 which I know is not correct.

Now with regards to Daniel 7:13-14: -

13 I saw in the night visions,

and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
14 And to him was given dominion
and glory and kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

The son of man was given dominion over the people nations and languages of the earth but the passage does not tell us that the Son of man also made His habitat at that time to be on the earth.

Also Daniel 2 tells us that the messianic kingdom is established on the foundational truth, the rock, that Jesus is the Son of God, but it also is silent as to whether or not the messianic Kingdom requires the presence of a ruler on the earth at that time as Jesus reign will be a priestly reign which will be played out in the heavenly Temple.

I suspect that that is enough for you to get your laughing matter around for the moment.

Shalom

Jay Ross.

[Seeker]

Hi Jay,

Now with regards to Daniel 7:13-14: -
13 I saw in the night visions,

and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
14 And to him was given dominion
and glory and kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

The son of man was given dominion over the people nations and languages of the earth but the passage does not tell us that the Son of man also made His habitat at that time to be on the earth.

No but the interpretation God gives us for those verses does.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The kingdom and dominion are taken from the horn after the 3 1/2 times. Judgment will sit, they will take away his dominion, to destroy and consume it. And the kingdom and dominion is given to the saints of God and it is an everlasting kingdom. See Jay the kingdom of God begins when the kingdom and dominion is taken from the horn. It follows the 3 1/2 times. We know the horn is destroyed at Armageddon so that gives us the timing for the kingdom to be given to the saints. The saints get the kingdom of the Lords at the end of the last 7 years following the defeat of the horn at Armageddon. So the everlasting kingdom spoken of in 7:14 is the kingdom the saints get after the horns dominion and kingdom are taken away. So we can know that the kingdom begins at the millennium. We can verify Jesus is dwelling on earth during the millennium with this classic millennial passage.

Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks...is a classic and well recognized event of the millennium. The law will go forth from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem during the millennium.

Mic 4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

And forever after the millennium. The Lord will reign over them in mount Zion. Clearly the Lord reigning from earth during the millennium which matches the info that God gives us in the interpretation given in Dan 7.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Here we see that Jesus begins his everlasting reign at the 7th trumpet. You are so far off base it isn't even funny. Nothing you say matches what scripture says.

Also Daniel 2 tells us that the messianic kingdom is established on the foundational truth, the rock, that Jesus is the Son of God, but it also is silent as to whether or not the messianic Kingdom requires the presence of a ruler on the earth at that time as Jesus reign will be a priestly reign which will be played out in the heavenly Temple.

Again in your imagination because what you say does not match what the scriptures say as I have shown above. You can believe what you write but I assure you I never will because nothing you say is even close to scripture. Anyway I am done discussing this with you as I view what you say as total heresy to tell you the truth. It has no merit because Jesus begins to reign on earth at the conclusion of the last 7 years or beginning of the millennium which I have already provided scripture to prove it. Any further discussion really is not the best use of my limited time as you will never believe scripture no matter how much of it I put out in front of you. You're not likely to ever change and you definitely won't get me to ever agree with what you write so I don't see any further need for me to continue this conversation with you.

Peace,
Seeker

[Douggg]

Also Daniel 2 tells us that the messianic kingdom is established on the foundational truth, the rock, that Jesus is the Son of God, but it also is silent as to whether or not the messianic Kingdom requires the presence of a ruler on the earth at that time as Jesus reign will be a priestly reign which will be played out in the heavenly Temple.

Hi Jay, since seeker says he's done, I want to ask you...

Who will sit on King David's throne?

Jeremiah 23:5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
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Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
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Luke 1: 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
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Acts 2:29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
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Zechariah 6:12And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
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Ezekiel 37: 24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
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Jay, right now Jesus is our High Priest in Heaven, Save us from our sins messiah. When he returns, Jesus will fulfill the prophecies regarding "KIng Messiah" encoded in the ot as David my sevant in the messianic prophecies. As "King Messiah", Jesus will reign and rule from Jerusalem here on earth.

Doug L.

[Seeker]

Good post Doug never thought of it from the throne side.

Peace,
Seeker

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,
Again in your imagination because what you say does not match what the scriptures say as I have shown above. You can believe what you write but I assure you I never will because nothing you say is even close to scripture. Anyway I am done discussing this with you as I view what you say as total heresy to tell you the truth. It has no merit because Jesus begins to reign on earth at the conclusion of the last 7 years or beginning of the millennium which I have already provided scripture to prove it. Any further discussion really is not the best use of my limited time as you will never believe scripture no matter how much of it I put out in front of you. You're not likely to ever change and you definitely won't get me to ever agree with what you write so I don't see any further need for me to continue this conversation with you.

Peace,
Seeker

Is this a Freudian slip on your part.

You are suggesting that what I have written is all from my imagination and is therefore fallible while holding firm to the belief that all of your thoughts that have come from your imagination is infallible.

If your view is correct then it should be provable within the next seven years or so if you hold to the view that the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 is to begin soon. If the Armageddon event has not happened within this time period, then can we accept that your theories and imaginations are not really based on scripture but on the imaginations of your mind as you have suggested that mine are.

It would seem that you are committing the same error as the error that you accuse others of making; that is fitting scripture to mould around your particular theory of understanding.

With regards to the so called "interpretation given in Daniel 7:25-27 of the fourth beast as if it is an explanation of the first portion of Daniel 7, I would like to suggest that the "angel" is expanding on what will be happening in the future right up and unto the end of the Millennium Age when the Throne Judgements occur of Satan and the beasts, the unrighteous and the righteous.

It is only after the Throne judgements have been completed that the Saint’s receive the promised dominion over all the kingdoms under the heavens and this was some 3.5 ages/times into the future from when Daniel lived.

Now I am of the view that having dominion over the peoples of the earth is the same as being a king of these same people however, the kingly rule does not necessitate the need for the presence of the king within His domain for his reign to be effective. That in reality seems to be the main sticking point for Doug.

Matthew 25 contains three parables that are applicable to the Millennium Age. The parable of the ten virgins, which will happen at the beginning of the Millennium Age. The parable of the Talents will transpire during the 1000 year period that Satan is locked up in the Bottomless Pit and should be considered in parallel with the parable of the Pounds as found in Luke 19:11-27 which also describe the same events but to a more secular audience than his disciples. The last parable is the Judgement of the Nation when Jesus tells us that we will see Him coming to Judge the Sheep and the Goats at the end of the Millennium Age after Satan has been dealt with by the Lord and dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

Seeker, I hold all of my views on the End Time prophecies very lightly and I am happy for God to judge me a fool if my views are off base.

I also understand the intent of Isaiah 28 and have chosen not to build my views on what others have envisaged, building line upon line, precept upon precept.

I am also happy to recant all of my views if a foundational view is found to be faulty or proved to be faulty and a "I am right and you are wrong proof" does not cut it in my opinion.

Doug and seeker, you both believe that your theories are the only ones that are right and you may be closing your eyes to other possibilities.

Lord may my spirit be troubled where I have allowed my imagination to mislead me and I am happy for you, Lord, to bring wiser people around me to correct my miss understanding of your word.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Seeker]

Hi Jay,

It's not that I can't defend my position with scripture it is more that I don't have time to mess with your theory at this time. I'll give you a rain check though and take it up later when I have some spare time. There are other more important things I need to reserve my time for at this point. I assure you my position stands up to scripture because I shape my view around scripture rather than shape scripture around my view. The brief response I have given thus far already proves the conclusion of your theory to be inaccurate when lined up and compared to scriptures. I don't have the time to properly debate your theory at this time but rest assured if you are still posting it in the future I will address it concept by concept and show the inaccuracies as compared to the actual words used in scripture. Until then.

Peace,
Seeker

[Douggg]

Doug and seeker, you both believe that your theories are the only ones that are right and you may be closing your eyes to other possibilities.

Hi brother Jay, the only thing I was addressing in this thread was the issue of whether Jesus will reign and rule from Jerusalem or not in the Kingdom of God. I was just addressing that one particular issue that you feel may be ambiguous in the prophecies. If you disagree with me, I don't have a problem with that. I was not analyzing and critiquing your approach or methodology.

Doug L.

[shorttribber]

Hi Jay,

If I may jump in please. i find your view reasonable and with merit....i do also feel mine and these others also have merit...we are ALL prone to and TEND to mold scripture around our viewpoints....to deny it is fallacy.

We will all be corrected in the end....of that I'm relatively sure. Maybe.

May God be found true and all of us liars.

Blessing to all.

[Jay Ross]

Hi Jay,

If I may jump in please. i find your view reasonable and with merit....i do also feel mine and these others also have merit...we are ALL are prone to and TEND to mold scripture around our viewpoints....to deny it is fallacy.

We will all be corrected in the end....of that I'm relatively sure. Maybe.

May God be found true and all of us liars.

Blessing to all.

Someone may end up as



Others

[Seeker]

Hi Jay,

I have some time now that I can devote to discussing this with you. I presented a lot of scripture that shows Jesus reigning on earth during the millennium. With Jesus shown in scripture to reign on earth during the millennium, the conclusion you have drawn with your theory seems to not agree with the scriptures I listed above which show Jesus reigning from Jerusalem during the millennium. I am pretty certain that since your conclusion does not match what scripture shows during the millennium that the steps you use to get to that conclusion will also not line up with scripture.

Peace,
Seeker