A fresh look at what the Rapture really is...

by **good4u1** on Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:15 pm

Okay, all...you will need to rethink and throw out the old paradigm of what it means when the Church is raptured and the Kingdom of God is installed...everything you thought...is probably...well, wrong. As I was reading this and thought about it, it is highly consistent with the teachings of Jesus and the whole of Scripture including the Pauline Epistles...so hang on and read it carefully and with an open mind...it is not anything what you thought and it blew my mind. Here it is and the link:

The “Rapture” – Not a Departure, but a Changing - Matthew 24:37-41

If we carefully consider the Lord’s teaching, it seems that believers are not taken away when He comes, but remain on earth in order to enter His Kingdom. In His teaching, Jesus indicates that at the time of the Kingdom, there will be a cleansing on earth (Matthew 13:30-50).

Jesus said that the tares will first be gathered and burnt up, then the wheat gathered. He said at His return, or “presence,” some would be taken away, not in rapture, but in judgment; one from a bed, another from a field, yet another from the work-place. In its context this is not a rapture of believers, but a judgment on the wicked. Those who are taken away are taken in judgment, just as the flood took people away at the time of Noah.

His reference to vultures confirms this as judgment from God, and comes from a figurative description by the prophet Ezekiel of the great “judgment supper” of God (Ezekiel 39:17, Revelation 19:17). Those who are taken are the wicked, and not the righteous. Those who remain enter His Kingdom, and inherit the earth. Jesus also spoke of those who may try to enter His presence at His return, but will be turned away and prevented from doing so, because they never really knew him. The judgment of nations at this time also indicates that some will enter the Kingdom, but not all (Matthew 25:11, 12, 30, 41).

The Old Testament prophets foresaw the Kingdom of God filling the whole earth. Like the mustard seed, it will eventually fill the entire earth (Matthew 13:31). Jesus will rule the nations and His people will be changed, and empowered to rule with Him. Then peace will fill the earth when the wicked are removed, the nations converted, and Jesus rules.

What is sometimes called the “rapture” is in fact not a departure, but a meeting with the risen Jesus here on earth, at His return. At this meeting, believers will be changed to allow them to function in a new way, with no restrictions, and great power. His Kingdom will bring the spiritual and material realms into harmony, and believers will have access to both.

When will this happen?

http://www.sonstoglory.com/JesusSecondComing.htm

by **good4u1** on Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:29 pm

Part II...the "Resurrection"...

The Resurrection - I Corinthians 15:23-58

The resurrection is the hope of all believers.

Paul’s teaching in I Corinthians 15:23-28 is significant in that he gives the order of events:

1. Jesus, the first fruits.

2. Those who are His, at His “presence.”

3. Then the end will come, but only after Jesus has abolished all other rule, authority, power, and finally, death itself. There is a clear step by step strategy outlined here.

It is generally accepted that there is an order in the resurrections, and that although one day there will be a universal resurrection of the dead, there is also the promise of a resurrection for believers, prior to that time (Revelation 20:4,5; John 5:25-28; Luke 14:14).

1. Jesus is the first to rise from the dead. When Jesus arose, multitudes of departed saints became visible (Matthew 27:51-53). This was the first-fruits of God’s harvest. The living saints were then empowered, or “clothed,” by the Holy Spirit, and a spiritual explosion resulted that thrust the gospel into the world.

2. Secondly, there are those who will belong to Jesus at His “Parousia.” They comprise two groups: the first, are the deceased saints, who have died between His departure, and His return, and who will be raised. The second, are those who are alive at, or during His “presence” (I Thesalonians 4:13-5:10; I Corinthians 15:51-53; Revelation 20:4,5).

(a). Believers who have died, will come back with Jesus when He returns. They will be “raised” to become active again. They are with Jesus, and will accompany His return. The apostle Peter declared that he would one day lay down his earthly tabernacle - his physical body, and depart to be with the Lord (II Peter 1:13-15).

The apostle Paul spoke of putting on, or being “clothed” with the heavenly body, so as not to be found naked. The word clothe is “enduo” - to sink into a garment, invest with clothing, or endue. According to II Corinthians 5:1-6, departed Christians are not just floating around somewhere, but are clothed in new heavenly bodies. When Jesus returns, they will return and reign with Him (Revelation 20:4). Like the multitudes that appeared after the resurrection of Jesus, they will be able to become visible and function in their glorified bodies.

(b). Believers who are alive on earth, at the “Parousia,” will be changed (Strong’s), which means “to make different,” or (Vines) “to make other than it is, to transform.” Living believers will be changed to share the glory of Jesus at His return. This does not necessarily take place all at the same moment, but at the sound of the trumpet. Yet no trumpet sounds momentarily, but is an extended sound. The trumpet (the voice of the Lord - Revelation 1:10) sounds for each individual who belongs to Jesus, and as it does, He will reveal Himself to them. This transformation releases God’s power into them, and a worldwide explosion of God’s reign follows.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:39 pm

What is sometimes called the “rapture” is in fact not a departure, but a meeting with the risen Jesus here on earth, at His return. At this meeting, believers will be changed to allow them to function in a new way, with no restrictions, and great power. His Kingdom will bring the spiritual and material realms into harmony, and believers will have access to both.

I agree.

by **Jericho** on Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:50 pm

As near as I can tell this is basically post-tribulationism or a variation, correct? I agree that at the Second Coming the wicked are removed but if the rest of the believers are changed what exactly are they changed into? The only change I can think of is from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible. This then would present a problem as to who would populate the millennium. Jesus said that in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven (Mat 22:30)

His definition of change is "to function in a new way, with no restrictions, and great power". I'm not sure what that entails but If he believes we are not changed into our spiritual bodies at the Second Coming but are changed in some other way I just don't see it. Men still rebel during the millennium, the sin nature is still there. There is no radical change in human nature after the Second Coming, otherwise Jesus would not have to rule with an iron rod.

What is sometimes called the “rapture” is in fact not a departure, but a meeting with the risen Jesus here on earth, at His return.

Except 1Th 4:17 says they are caught up in the clouds and meet the lord in the air. The definition of "caught up" is to carry off by force, snatch away.

by **good4u1** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:58 am

Ouuuu....Sword....there are so many of your questions answered on this site, my dear friend. :wink:

They answered many questions I had as well and no one answered them to my satisfaction until now. :banana:

For the best and most complete answer to your post, instead of me answering them and not doing justice...may I recommend you read the e-books on this site or download them if you have an e-book reader. There are three and they are biblical and interesting. There really are godly mature believers who thru revelation by the LORD answers many questions that many of us have and the LORD has permitted knowledge to His people now on this subject (and many others for me too) which was about the Kingdom Age and the true third temple...those too are answered. Why? It is because the LORD is about ready to end the Age of Grace and install his Kingdom Age, imo. That is the only explanation that makes any sense to me.

Do read these believer's testimonies about how these things were revealed to them by the LORD. It will encourage your heart as it did mine which are the first chapters of the books.

And now to answer your first question in your post...yes, I firmly believe that the rapture will either be near the end of the Tribulation (pre-wrath position) or at the end of Tribulation (post-Tribulation position). I did not know what these believers understanding was regarding the Rapture of the Church until I read these books. My initial search was a topic completely different when I ran into these e-books.

by **amessenger4god** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:43 am

...Just doesn't square with the general Biblical picture (see Zechariah 14, Revelation 20-21, 1 Thessalonians 4, etc).

The final judgment occurs at the end of Jesus' millenial rule per Revelation 20-21. There is no room for negotiation on this if you take the Bible at face value. Satan will be locked up for 1,000 years, there will be one last rebellion, and then and only then, will the dead be raised, judged, and death and hades thrown into the lake of fire.

Secondly, you can roughly add up the percentage of people who will survive the judgments of Revelation because the Bible actually gives us certain guidelines (1/4th of the earth, 1/3rd of mankind, etc).

Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 make explicitly clear that there will be a remnant of humanity with a sinful nature left during Jesus earthly reign. The Bible quite explicitly proclaims the judgments that will befall these people if they refuse to worship Jerusalem's divine King. This is also not really a debatable point (I'm not trying to be stubborn or combative, but there is really no room for misinterpreting Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, unless you refuse to take the Bible at face value).

As for 1 Thessalonians: again, it needs to be taken at face value. We are going to meet the Lord in the air. Period. No extra-Biblical books or interpretations are necessary, nor does a debate need to be had, because Paul's description leaves no room for doubt. We WILL meet the Lord in the air after we are "caught up". If you want to argue (oddly in my opinion) that we will be raptured into the air and then immediately return to earth with Jesus then fine... but denying this rapture all-together is really disingenuous, and honestly smacks of the serpent's use of subtleties in Genesis 3.

by **aaron** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:04 am

As for 1 Thessalonians: again, it needs to be taken at face value. We are going to meet the Lord in the air. Period. No extra-Biblical books or interpretations are necessary, nor does a debate need to be had, because Paul's description leaves no room for doubt. We WILL meet the Lord in the air after we are "caught up".

That's the rapture in a nutshell, but I would much appreciate it if you would kindly tell us when it will be too. :mrgreen:

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thes. 4

... but it's nice to discuss things like this viewpoint too, you have an interesting post going here good4u1 ... no doubt this one will ruffle a few feathers.

..'in the clouds' just doesn't sound very down to earth to me though. :wink:

Feast of Trumpets this weekend, perhaps I'll see you all sooner than later. Blessings2U

by **Tevye** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:16 am

Roland Pletts wrote:In 1974 I had an experience that dramatically influenced my spiritual understanding.
Late one night I was praying out in a field when God allowed me to see something that was truly amazing.
-
There suddenly appeared above me a group of huge luminous forms radiating a clear translucent light.
They shone with an iridescent beauty that lit up the darkness like supernatural clouds.

Sound familiar?

Roland Pletts wrote:At this time the Lord impressed very strongly upon me that I should not share it with anyone,
except those He brought directly to me.
-
It just so happened that one of the men with whom I had previously shared it,
heard the entire prophetic utterance, and was thereby witness to the Lord's words.

It appears as though he is claiming that he has heard from God
apart from the written word, as if he is a prophet, having received a new message from God.

Roland Pletts wrote:I believe that this revelation came from the Lord, was immediately confirmed by a direct word from Him,

I'm not saying his experience was not valid
but was it truly from God?
The enemy comes as an angel of light.

"I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning,
your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached,
or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received,
or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
-
I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under
those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about.

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.
Their end will be what their actions deserve."
2 Corinthians 11

If this person's vision does not agree with other scripture
than it can not be a genuine message from the Lord.
As Sword pointed out here:

SwordofGideon wrote:
What is sometimes called the “rapture” is in fact not a departure, but a meeting with the risen Jesus here on earth, at His return.

Except 1Th 4:17 says they are caught up in the clouds and meet the lord in the air. The definition of "caught up" is to carry off by force, snatch away.

It seems as though his experience back in '74 has influenced his perspective upon the written word of the Lord
as if it was some type of baptism into the spirit realm. It probably was, but was it of the Spirit of God?

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,
because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
1 John 4

I'm not saying this person is a false prophet
but if his prophecy does not line up with all scripture
then we must conclude that it is not from God.
And he must face the truth that his experience in '74
may have been real, but was it from God?

I'm not saying this man's experience was the same as...
yet it sounds somewhat like this excerpt from the Joseph Smith vision: (in the woods)

I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty ... I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God .... I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head .... When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description .... One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other 'This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!' .... I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right, (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong) and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong ....

good4u1 wrote:Okay, all...you will need to rethink and throw out the old paradigm of what it means when the Church is raptured and the Kingdom of God is installed...everything you thought...is probably...well, wrong.

Dear friend, I respectfully disagree with you
I believe what we know and have learned is solid
founded upon scripture, compared with other scriptures.
We have built a solid foundation in Christ Jesus and stand upon it.
What we believe is true, and we put our hope in it for the day of His appearing.

May the Lord bless your journey, and give you peace.

by **Jericho** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:35 am

And now to answer your first question in your post...yes, I firmly believe that the rapture will either be near the end of the Tribulation (pre-wrath position) or at the end of Tribulation (post-Tribulation position). I did not know what these believers understanding was regarding the Rapture of the Church until I read these books. My initial search was a topic completely different when I ran into these e-books.

Good4u, we may disagree on this issue but I just want to say I do respect your opinion. Whichever position is correct I think it's fair to say we are all ready for the Kingdom Age to begin. :grin:

amessenger4god, you probably summed up my thoughts better than I ever could.

by **good4u1** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:27 am

Okay. Do you not think as we come to the end of this age that godly believers will have revelations from the LORD? I think so. I see no contradiction of Scripture from what he has said, imo. I don't think he has added to Scripture or taken away from Scripture as the LORD warns. For me it was making the picture clearer and the smoke was clearing. I read many things with a skeptical eye and this is the FIRST that was consistent to me Scripturally. As I read what one of the authors had to say, I asked the LORD for any sign that what he said was false. Nothing within my spirit sent red flags up.

We are all at different places in our spiritual walk...and none of us have arrived since the Kingdom Age has yet to be installed. Some are ahead of me in understanding and others are along the side of me at the same point and still others are behind me and others still have no clue what is happening until the End is upon them...just as Jesus said would happen in the days of Noah when the Great Flood came and a new age had begun then. It is so now. Even so, come LORD Jesus! :a3:

by **good4u1** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:46 am

One more thing and it is a challenge...READ THE BOOKS...ALL THREE OF THEM.

Before pronouncing judgment upon them and dismissing outright what may be a thread of real hope when the time of trial comes upon you and you are not prepared as you had thought...or left this world as you have thought. I found them not to be extra-biblical but an encouragement to me to preserve with confidence even in the midst of fiery trial to the point of my earthly life taken from me. I may be just in a different spiritual place than you are and as the Prophet Daniel states in 12:10, " Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, [the angel has to be speaking about the church here] but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand." And in some translations it is in brackets at the end of this sentence "and teach many."

So when the time comes that the fiery trial of Satan's wrath is upon the church saints, i.e., the Great Tribulation...will we be found standing? It is a somber question each of us must ask ourselves, myself included.

I will read these books.

by **good4u1** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:50 am

amessenger4god wrote:...Just doesn't square with the general Biblical picture (see Zechariah 14, Revelation 20-21, 1 Thessalonians 4, etc).

The final judgment occurs at the end of Jesus' millenial rule per Revelation 20-21. There is no room for negotiation on this if you take the Bible at face value. Satan will be locked up for 1,000 years, there will be one last rebellion, and then and only then, will the dead be raised, judged, and death and hades thrown into the lake of fire.

Secondly, you can roughly add up the percentage of people who will survive the judgments of Revelation because the Bible actually gives us certain guidelines (1/4th of the earth, 1/3rd of mankind, etc).

Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 make explicitly clear that there will be a remnant of humanity with a sinful nature left during Jesus earthly reign. The Bible quite explicitly proclaims the judgments that will befall these people if they refuse to worship Jerusalem's divine King. This is also not really a debatable point (I'm not trying to be stubborn or combative, but there is really no room for misinterpreting Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, unless you refuse to take the Bible at face value).

As for 1 Thessalonians: again, it needs to be taken at face value. We are going to meet the Lord in the air. Period. No extra-Biblical books or interpretations are necessary, nor does a debate need to be had, because Paul's description leaves no room for doubt. We WILL meet the Lord in the air after we are "caught up". If you want to argue (oddly in my opinion) that we will be raptured into the air and then immediately return to earth with Jesus then fine... but denying this rapture all-together is really disingenuous, and honestly smacks of the serpent's use of subtleties in Genesis 3.

It is apparent you want to be dogmatic regarding the "caught up in the air" issue. And it is equally apparent you did not read the books. So I rest my case.

by **good4u1** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:00 am

aaron wrote:
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thes. 4

... but it's nice to discuss things like this viewpoint too, you have an interesting post going here good4u1 ... no doubt this one will ruffle a few feathers.

..'in the clouds' just doesn't sound very down to earth to me though.

Feast of Trumpets this weekend, perhaps I'll see you all sooner than later. Blessings2U

"...you have an interesting post going here good4u1 ... no doubt this one will ruffle a few feathers."

Hahahahahahahahaha! You obviously have not been here very long...I am an "expert" at feather ruffling... :lol:

by **amessenger4god** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:11 am

It is apparent you want to be dogmatic regarding the "caught up in the air" issue.

Yes, I guess so. The Bible leaves no room for misinterpretation of the fact that Believers will be taken into the sky. You can argue as much as you want as to what happens afterward, but 1 Thessalonians 4 is either God's Word or it isn't.

And it is equally apparent you did not read the books. So I rest my case.

Also true, but my post was not an argument against those books, but against the following three specific points, which are clearly un-Biblical:

1.) There will not be a rapture.

2.) There will not be sinners during Jesus' millenial reign.

3.) Jesus' Second Coming ushers in the eternal state, rather than 1,000 years later, after the final judgment, when God creates a new heaven and a new earth.

Again, I'm not trying to be combative, and there are so many issues that none of us know yet because our knowledge is still so imperfect, but the above three points are entirely un-Biblical because the Bible explicity, in detailed fashion, says otherwise.

Notice also that Zechariah 14, Revelation 20-21, 1 Thessalonians, and so on, are not symbolic-type passages, but are explicit, historical foresight of what is literally going to happen.

This is why it frustrates some of us when parables (such as the chronology of the "wheat and the tares") are used to disprove passages that are written not to be symbolic, but to reveal the plain, literal realty of what is actually going to happen (such as Zechariah 14, the end of Revelation, and 1 Thessalonians 4).

by **good4u1** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:28 am

Wow! I'll say it again...Wow!

You really don't get it. Really. :faint:

So I guess anything else would be an exercise in futility. Have a nice day. :whistle:

by **Tevye** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:51 am

amessenger4god wrote:The Bible leaves no room for misinterpretation of the fact that Believers will be taken into the sky. You can argue as much as you want as to what happens afterward, but 1 Thessalonians 4 is either God's Word or it isn't.

Amen.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:07 pm

amessenger4god wrote:As for 1 Thessalonians: again, it needs to be taken at face value. We are going to meet the Lord in the air. Period. No extra-Biblical books or interpretations are necessary, nor does a debate need to be had, because Paul's description leaves no room for doubt. We WILL meet the Lord in the air after we are "caught up".

I see no contradiction in the OP from the author in this regard. He states...."but a meeting with the risen Jesus here on earth, at His return." He evidently interprets "air" as I do, based on the location of clouds, as in the earthly atmosphere. This is the environment in which birds fly, airplanes fly, and clouds gather, is it not? Paul clearly says we will meet Him in the air.

If you want to argue (oddly in my opinion) that we will be raptured into the air and then immediately return to earth with Jesus then fine...

That's precisely what Paul did not make clear.... It's the "then what?" that generates discussion.

but denying this rapture all-together is really disingenuous, and honestly smacks of the serpent's use of subtleties in Genesis 3.

Really? I don't believe any believer has denied that we meet the Lord in the air, but rather the interpretation that has been associated with this meeting. What is clear is that the Lord descends with a shout and we meet Him in the air.

by **aaron** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:23 pm

He evidently interprets "air" as I do, based on the location of clouds, as in the earthly atmosphere. This is the environment in which birds fly, airplanes fly, and clouds gather, is it not?

I've often wondered at some of your posts Abiding when you've mentioned before about whether or not there is a literal catching away into the clouds/sky. After reading your post, I think I have a greater understanding into why you and others believe that we won't be caught up into the sky. I suppose that would place the second coming of Christ at the end of Rev. where He returns and the new/heavenly Jerusalem comes down and the bride of Christ forever is with Him.

I'll check into this view a little more, it's intriguing, it's also not commonly taught in churches I've been in. One thing's for sure .. the thought of the Lord returning is amazing and breathtaking and sooner than later. :a2:

Now stop ruffling my feathers good4u1! :lol:

I've been on this board a while, I'm just the type that likes to sit back and listen. My grandfather used to say "Don't say a word and walk around with a smile on your face, and people will wonder what you're up to."

:grin:

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:35 pm

aaron wrote: I think I have a greater understanding into why you and others believe that we won't be caught up into the sky.

aaron, please read my post again... :grin:

I don't deny that we will meet the Lord in the air/sky/clouds. I only deny it's clear that "air/sky/clouds" means anything other than the atmosphere on the earth.

by **Tevye** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:09 pm

but a meeting with the risen Jesus here on earth, at His return." He evidently interprets "air" as I do,

Abiding are you saying that we will meet the Lord with our feet on the ground
or off the ground up in the sky? (yet, on earth...as in .. within the realm of the planet?)

(I noticed as I previewed this post, that you answered my question before I posted it)

I don't deny that we will meet the Lord in the air/sky/clouds. I only deny it's clear that "air/sky/clouds" means anything other than the atmosphere on the earth.

Thank you Abiding. :grin:

-------------------------------------

I imagine when Christ comes
that the angels will descend down to every believer at that moment
and the transformation part of "the Rapture" will happen with our feet on the ground.
But after the dead are raised and receive a new body,
simultaneously those who are alive who have survived the great tribulation
are changed together with the previous dead in Christ, in the blink of an eye.

I believe that this will happen in full view of those who will not be changed
as if a suffering believer, a dead believer will rise up from the dead
and become as light (transformed) next to and before the eyes
of those who will have the MOTB, or have not received Christ
and this is why they will do as Revelation 6 says:

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty,
and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us
from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

(Why will they do this? Because they will see the Lord in His glory, and His bride
transformed before their very eyes, and know without a doubt what is next)

After this transformation event upon the soil,
I imagine that we will be "caught up" together to the clouds
way up in the sky to meet the Lord in a very unique and romantic like way.
(spiritually romantic)

A step further in imagination...
that the being caught UP may not happen as many think
the being caught up may just take quite a while to complete
like a floating upward, or a slow rising...
This would seem probable, as the Lord may want to bring glory to His bride.
As in a procession the bride makes as she walks UP the asile to meet her groom by the altar.
I'm thinking that when Yeshua finally comes He will make the most of that moment, and it will last for a while.

by **Tevye** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:49 pm

In his novel " The Fourth Reich "
I believe Robert Van Kampen (and family)
painted a wonderful picture of how the rapture may be like.

It's been a while since I've read it, so I can't quote the portion
but I clearly remember how the story was at that moment
....I shared this wonderful work of art with a friend.

You can peek inside " The Fourth Reich " here.

by **good4u1** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:37 pm

SwordofGideon wrote:As near as I can tell this is basically post-tribulationism or a variation, correct? I agree that at the Second Coming the wicked are removed but if the rest of the believers are changed what exactly are they changed into? The only change I can think of is from mortal to immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible. This then would present a problem as to who would populate the millennium. Jesus said that in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven (Mat 22:30)

His definition of change is "to function in a new way, with no restrictions, and great power". I'm not sure what that entails but If he believes we are not changed into our spiritual bodies at the Second Coming but are changed in some other way I just don't see it. Men still rebel during the millennium, the sin nature is still there. There is no radical change in human nature after the Second Coming, otherwise Jesus would not have to rule with an iron rod.

What is sometimes called the “rapture” is in fact not a departure, but a meeting with the risen Jesus here on earth, at His return.

Except 1Th 4:17 says they are caught up in the clouds and meet the lord in the air. The definition of "caught up" is to carry off by force, snatch away.

I just re-read your post and want to add something. Your partial comment here: " There is no radical change in human nature after the Second Coming, otherwise Jesus would not have to rule with an iron rod."

I agree. There is no inward change of the human sinful nature of those the LORD and subsequent Saints rule over. I think your question is exactly who are the human citizens (these are not the Saints) that the LORD and the Saints rule over? Right?

This is a more complicated answer than I have time to explain as I understand it...but...here goes. King David will come back to rule the now believing Jewish remanent which is the greatly expanded land of the House of Israel and repopulate Israel. David will only locally rule Israel (under the LORD Jesus, of course) and the Saints will administer the rest of the world citizens who are now believing and they repopulate the earth as appointed by the LORD. And lastly,the LORD will over see and reign over the earth worldwide. Nothing will escape his attention. Clear as mud, right? :lol:

But outward obedience will be insisted upon from his human subjects during this time even tho' we will live in a perfect environment that has been cleansed. Work will be a pleasure instead of toil for the human citizenry and natural human life expectancy will lengthen to possibly like the time of creation. It will be an amazing time period...but the nature of sin in the human heart will remain...but the outward display of it will be greatly diminished. And why shouldn't it? Satan is not around and the LORD will be very stern in his governance in his Kingdom against sin. Many will learn their lesson; but others will not but must conform anyway. It will be the Law of the Land.

by **1whowaits** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:05 pm

From Paul's statement regarding meeting the Lord in the air, and Jesus' statement about the elect being gathered by angels when He is in the air, it does appear that we will meet the Lord in the air when He returns. But what happens after that? Do we go to heaven, do we stay in the air for a period of time, do we return immediately to the earth?

As Jesus fulfilled the first 4 appointed feasts at His first coming, together in sequence, He will likely fulfill the last 3 appointed feasts at His second coming, together and in sequence.

The themes of the feast of trumpets are consistent with the catching up/rapture. The day of Atonement appears to be the time of armageddon (Isa 61 and 63 associate armageddon with the year of Jubilee-which always starts on the day of Atonement, at the 7th seal and 7th trumpet events occur that are associated only with the Day of Atonement), which occurs 10 days later.

What occurs in that 10 day period? Do we stay up in the air for 10 days? do we go to heaven for 10 days? (Jesus sets foot on the earth at armageddon according to Zech 14 (likely on the day of Atonement) so it appears that we don't go to earth during this 10 day interval).

In Rev 6, the sky is rolled back like a scroll, what would that look like? What is behind the scroll? Also, men ask to be hidden- 'from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!', as if they can see God sitting on His throne. There is no evidence that God ever leaves His throne in heaven during the 70th week or the millenium, so when men see God He is still in heaven. How far can men see? How far away then is heaven? Apparently not far.

In Rev 19 John states that he sees heaven standing open, where is the opening to heaven, could it be where the sky is rolled back like a scroll?

Could it be that when the sky is rolled back like a scroll, heaven stands open, men can see God, and this opening would be in the atmosphere? Where then do we meet Jesus when He is in the air/atmosphere? Where could we then go for 10 days?

As the armies gather for armageddon, apparently before He sets foot on the ground (as the armies are not yet being destroyed), Jesus says- 'Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and keep his clothes with him...', in Rev 16. In Rev 19 it is stated- "for the wedding of the Lamb has come, and the bride has made herself ready. Fine linen bright and clean was given her to wear'... just prior to the description of heaven standing open.

Considering that the bride makes herself ready for the wedding prior to the wedding and not after the wedding, it appears that the wedding begins around the time when heaven stands open. So the question could be whether 10 days is long enough for a wedding, and it is, imo.

by **Jericho** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:25 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:see no contradiction in the OP from the author in this regard. He states...."but a meeting with the risen Jesus here on earth, at His return." He evidently interprets "air" as I do, based on the location of clouds, as in the earthly atmosphere. This is the environment in which birds fly, airplanes fly, and clouds gather, is it not? Paul clearly says we will meet Him in the air.

I don't deny that we will meet the Lord in the air/sky/clouds. I only deny it's clear that "air/sky/clouds" means anything other than the atmosphere on the earth.

There certainly is a distinction between earth and sky, and Genesis 1:1-8 also distinguishes between the two:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1
And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day. 1:8

earth - 'erets eh'-rets from an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land):--X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X natins, way, + wilderness, world.

heavens - shamayim shaw-mah'-yim dual of an unused singular shameh {shaw-meh'}; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve):--air, X astrologer, heaven(-s).

To make 1Th 4:17 work any other way is to allegorize scriptures.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:27 pm

From Paul's statement regarding meeting the Lord in the air, and Jesus' statement about the elect being gathered by angels when He is in the air, it does appear that we will meet the Lord in the air when He returns. But what happens after that? Do we go to heaven, do we stay in the air for a period of time, do we return immediately to the earth?

Hi 1whowaits,

Isn't the air/clouds on the earth?

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
(Matthew 17:5)

Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"
(Mark 9:7)

While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.
(Luke 9:34)

Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"
(Luke 9:35)

And He was also saying to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming,' and so it turns out.
(Luke 12:54)

"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
(Luke 21:27)

And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
(Acts 1:9)

by **Jericho** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:34 pm

good4u1 wrote:But outward obedience will be insisted upon from his human subjects during this time even tho' we will live in a perfect environment that has been cleansed. Work will be a pleasure instead of toil for the human citizenry and natural human life expectancy will lengthen to possibly like the time of creation. It will be an amazing time period...but the nature of sin in the human heart will remain...but the outward display of it will be greatly diminished. And why shouldn't it? Satan is not around and the LORD will be very stern in his governance in his Kingdom against sin. Many will learn their lesson; but others will not but must conform anyway. It will be the Law of the Land.

True, I see it reversed from what it is now. While currently the world is and largely secular and true believers are in the minority during the millennium it will be flipped around. Believers will be in the majority and those with a rebellious heart are in the minority. Even tho it is heaven on earth there are still those with a rebellious heart and God will with hold rain from those nations until they get there act together.

by **good4u1** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:37 pm

Oh my gosh...this book answers so many of the things you folks are commenting on...JUST READ THE BOOK!

I pasted below the author's comments about "being caught up in the air in clouds of power and glory" but to get an accurate understanding of what the author means about air and clouds and glory and the like you have to read the historical context of the both OT and NT references with the explanations. It will give you a fuller understanding of what Jesus means by clouds and Paul's mention of air...in short Paul is speaking of the invisible spiritual realm that is currently blocked by a veil and is virtually all around us...this is the best he could do to describe the invisible. Better yet...READ THE BOOK.

Okay...here is the section pasted:

Caught up in the Clouds - I Thessalonians 4:13-18

What did Paul mean “caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air?” Just as the Lord spoke in figurative terms, so Paul also used metaphorical Biblical terms to describe the mystery of what will happen at the return of Jesus.

Let us establish the order. When Jesus returns, He will come back with believers who have already died. They are with Him, and when He comes, He brings them back. When Jesus arose, many others arose and appeared (Matthew 27:51-53). It is believed that they also ascended with Him, and that ever since then, believers at death enter immediately into His presence. When He returns, they will come back with Him. After this, living believers will be “changed” (I Corinthians 15:52). They will then be able to enter His presence and be with Him in “the clouds of His glory.”

Like Moses, they will be able to enter the cloud and see Him, face to face. This will take place at “His Parousia, or presence.” The term “in the clouds” does not refer to natural clouds in the atmosphere but, as we have seen, is a spiritual term to describe Jesus’ power and glory, when His presence is with His people.

Note the order: first the dead come back with Jesus and have glorified bodies, then after that the living will be changed and will join them in “the clouds of glory,” which is the glorious presence of Christ, as He indwells His people. Note that this is not necessarily a simultaneous event, but is a sequence. It is the individual believer’s change that happens in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, as and when Jesus reveals Himself to each one at His return.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:44 pm

SwordofGideon wrote:There certainly is a distinction between earth and sky, and Genesis 1:1-8 also distinguishes between the two. To make this work any other way is to allegorize scriptures.

Are you saying that the sky isn't part of the earth? The word heavens is found in Genesis 1 and 2 approx. 14 or so times and each time refers to something other than the dwelling place of God. For example:

In the beginning God created the heavens (H8064) and the earth. Gen 1:1

......and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens (H8064)." Gen 1:20

........and let birds multiply on the earth." Gen. 1:22

From Vines OT:

shamayim (H8064), "heavens; heaven; sky." This general Semitic word appears in languages such as Ugaritic, Akkadian, Aramaic, and Arabic. It occurs 420 times and in all periods of biblical Hebrew.

First, shamayim is the usual Hebrew word for the "sky" and the "realm of the sky." This realm is where birds fly. God forbids Israel to make any "likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air" (Deu_4:17).

When Absalom's hair caught in the branches of a tree, he hung suspended between the "heaven" and the earth (2Sa_18:9). This area, high above the ground but below the stars and heavenly bodies, is often the locus of visions: "And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the Lord stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem" (1Ch_21:16).

by **Jericho** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:54 pm

Are you saying that the sky isn't part of the earth? The word heavens is found in Genesis 1 and 2 approx. 14 or so times and each time refers to something other than the dwelling place of God. For example:

Okay, for the sake of argument let's say Paul wanted to convey to us that we would literally meet Jesus in the air (above the ground) how would he do it? What words would he use? Air and clouds maybe? I can't think of any other words Paul could use to make himself clearer. There is a saying, when the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense or you'll end up with nonsense.

by **good4u1** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:55 pm

Now here is the author's explanation of "in the AIR" which is such a hot button in this thread. Here it is:

In the Air

If the clouds at the return of Jesus are not weather clouds, but the spiritual clouds of God’s presence and glory, then obviously the term “in the air” must also convey a spiritual phenomenon. Paul did not mean that believers will go up into the clouds in the atmosphere, but that believers will enter into the presence or realm of Christ’s power and glory.

The word “air” is used in the New Testament for both natural air and the realm of spiritual powers. In the book of Revelation it is used in the context of angelic activity, and in Ephesians 2:2 it describes the realm and work of “the prince of the power of the air.” This power is over a spiritual dimension, rather than the natural air and its weather patterns. Paul linked the realm of the air with the “heavenly places,” or heavenly realms and described how spiritual battle takes place in this realm.

The realm of the air is also the realm over which Jesus has ultimate rule. Jesus has been raised to heavenly places, and the Church is seated with Him, there. This dimension will be opened for believers . (Ephesians 1:20, 2:6, 3:10, 6:12).

The word “air” is used together with the word “wind,” which also denotes both natural and spiritual realities (Ephesians 2:2). In the New Testament the word “wind” almost always conveys the meaning of “spirit” and, in the same way, when the apostle Paul spoke of “air” he was certainly not referring to what we breathe, made of nitrogen and oxygen, but was referring to an invisible spiritual dimension. “Air” is the nearest Paul could get to describe this invisible realm.

Just as air is real but invisible, so Paul used it to describe the very real, but invisible realm which is very close to us. It is the spirit dimension which is not far off, just invisible, right here “in the air.” Paul did not mean that believers were to be caught up into the atmosphere, but that believers would have access to the Spirit dimension. Believers will be caught out of their present condition, which is subject to mortality, and into a spiritual condition, subject to immortality. [/b]

[b]The “air” is the Spirit realm that Christ rules over, and which will be opened for believers. At His “Parousia,” believers are not going up into the weather clouds, but are going into the “presence” of Jesus, at His return. The invisible kingdom of the air (NIV), is in the air all around us, and believers will have access to it.

by **aaron** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:45 pm

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:10 pm

SwordofGideon wrote:Okay, for the sake of argument let's say Paul wanted to convey to us that we would literally meet Jesus in the air (above the ground) how would he do it? What words would he use? Air and clouds maybe? I can't think of any other words Paul could use to make himself clearer. There is a saying, when the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense or you'll end up with nonsense.

He could say exactly what he did say. The question is, did he mean "heaven" as the dwelling place of God and if so, wouldn't he have used the word "heaven?" That would be sufficient to support a rapture as currently taught in most churches by most teachers. But if he meant we meet Jesus within the atmosphere (air, sky, clouds) we know as "earth," then that would discredit a rapture to heaven where the throne of God is. This makes more sense since Paul nowhere (that I'm aware of at least) records an indefinite "stayover" in heaven to return at an unspecified time. And since we know that the final destination for believers where God will dwell with His people is the earth, I see this as a plausible rendering of the Thess. passage. After all, it's pretty clear from verse 17 that this meeting when Jesus descends from heaven is our "forever union with the Lord."

......and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess. 4:17

by **Abiding in His Word** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:27 pm

good4u1, I'm ok with translating air as a spiritual dimension since Paul seemed a bit confused as to where the 3rd heaven was or whether the man was in the body or out of the body in 2 Cor. 2:12. It also seems supported by his relating the changing of believers in the twinkling of an eye from the natural to the spiritual.

Much of what we understand of the spiritual is generated by our flesh/carnal nature and that's why it's difficult imo to comprehend life in the spirit apart from the body.

Edited to add: Our lack of understanding of the spiritual realm is precisely why some take the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit and "naturalize" them. Those that cannot be comprehended naturally, are discounted as having ceased.

by **Jericho** on Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:41 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:The question is, did he mean "heaven" as the dwelling place of God and if so, wouldn't he have used the word "heaven?" That would be sufficient to support a rapture as currently taught in most churches by most teachers. But if he meant we meet Jesus within the atmosphere (air, sky, clouds) we know as "earth," then that would discredit a rapture to heaven where the throne of God is.

Paul's use of the word "harpazo" (catch away\up, pluck, pull) should make it clear we are going somewhere. To presuppose otherwise is conjecture. There are no scriptures that I can think of that emphatically state we would either come immediately back down like a yoyo or remain stationary.

Abiding in His Word wrote:And since we know that the final destination for believers where God will dwell with His people is the earth, I see this as a plausible rendering of the Thess. passage.

Rev 21:1 states He will make a new heaven and a new earth. Heaven will not become vacant, we will have access to both realms.

by **good4u1** on Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:49 am

Well, looks like I will be pasting the entire book since no one yet has read it...*sigh*

And commentors, like Sword keep bringing up parts of the book and here is how the author explains "Harpazo." This in my mind answers the question of where and what happens at the Rapture of believers.

Caught Up – Harpazo – I Thessalonians 4:17

The term “caught up” depicts a forceful event. The Greek word is “Harpazo” and conveys the idea of force suddenly exercised (Vines) and is used to describe a powerful release of God’s energy. Paul was caught up to the third heaven and did not know whether in or out of his body; but he had access to the spiritual realm and heard words which could not be expressed in human language. Paul did not necessarily physically leave this world.

Philip was also mightily moved on by the Spirit of the Lord, and was caught away from one place to another, but did not leave the earth. It seems Ezekiel also had a similar experience. Each received a powerful intervention of God’s power, which released them from the normal restrictions of this dimension, although they remained in it (II Corinthians 12:2-4, Acts 8:39, Ezekiel 8:3, 11:24).

The use of the same word by the Lord reveals its meaning to us. He said that the Kingdom of God suffers “Harpazo” by men of force (Matthew 11:12). This is a difficult Scripture, but the NIV says, “the Kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.” Men enter into it by the Harpazo power of God. It conveys the idea of pressing into and possessing the Kingdom (Luke 16:16).

Each time that Jesus did a miracle, He reached into a future age, the Kingdom Age, took hold of it and released its power into the present situation. Through “Harpazo,” believers were able to take hold of, and enter into the Kingdom. They were not taken out of the world, but rather experienced the power of God coming into them to change their lives and situation. The Harpazo is the forceful dynamics of God to catch up something into His power.

Paul used it to describe a future release of God’s power into believers, to clothe them in the life of Christ. The “Harpazo” is the dynamic power of God to catch believers out of their fallen condition of corruption, and transform them into the risen life of Jesus. It does not mean a catching out of the world, but out of a state - that of carnality and weakness, into that of spiritual power. In His resurrection, Jesus exhibited a new dimension of being, an order beyond the physical. The Harpazo is to be released from the restrictions of this present mortality, and to be caught into the freedom of Jesus’ life at the time of His return.

by **slick** on Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:06 am

Hello Gang,
I have held to this idea for some time now and in fact a couple of years ago posted an article espousing this very thing. I have discussed with our Pastor and Prophecy teachers the thoughts of the Rapture not being what we have supposed it to be. The understanding of what the Rapture is also helps bring clarity as to WHEN it occurs, though I know the debate will not be settled any time til it occurs.

Look with me at...

I THESSALONIANS 4:14

"FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN,EVEN SO GOD (FATHER) WILL BRING WITH HIM (JESUS) THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP IN JESUS."

I THESSALONIANS 3:13

"SO THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH YOUR HEARTS UNBLAMABLE IN HOLINESS BEFORE OUR GOD AND FATHER AT THE COMING (PAROUSIA) OF OUR LORD JESUS WITH ALL HIS SAINTS."

In these two verses we see that at the revealing of Christ or his physical return, he is accompanied by other individuals I.E "SAINT VS 3:13, "THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP IN JESUS VS 4:14

Chapter 3 does not give any clear indicator as to who the Saints are, but Chapter 4 makes it very clear......

considering these passages on their own merit, we can reach only two conclusions, assuming the group in ch 3 is the same as ch 4, one we ascend into the clouds (air) and quickly say hello and goodbye to JESUS as we continue upward to a heavenly abode, or we meet HIM fall into his protective sphere and continue with him to establish His Kingdom on Earth. the verses clearly state that HE brings "WITH HIM" the groups mentioned.

In the closing passage of the letter we find further evidence that this is true,

I THESSALONIANS 4:17

"THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR, AND THUS WE SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD."

a couple of thoughts on the above passage, "THEN" for us the question is "WHEN IS THEN" which is answered in the preceding verse,

I THESSALONIANS 4:16a

"FOR THE LORD HIMSELF WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN........."

Clearly this is not a picture of some secret event but the rolling back the sky as a scroll and the world wide appearance that we see in Matthew 24, and Revelation 6 as well as the KEY passage in Revelation 19

REVELATION 19:11-14

"AND I SAW HEAVEN OPENED; AND BEHOLD,A WHITE HORSE,AND HE WHO SAT UPON IT IS CALLED FAITHFUL AND TRUE; AND IN RIGHTEOUSNESS HE JUDGES AND WAGES WAR.
AND HE IS CLOTHED WITH A ROBE DIPPED IN BLOOD;AND HIS NAME IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD.
AND THE ARMIES WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN,CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN,WHITE AND CLEAN,WERE FOLLOWING HIM ON WHITE HORSES."

An argument many times arises here because it can be supposed that the Armies are the "ANGELIC REALM" due to no identification within this particular passage, but just like I Thessalonians (though reversed in order) we find the identity of the ARMY in a previous verse.....

REVELATION 19:8

"AND IT WAS GIVEN TO HER (the bride of Christ ie vs 7) TO CLOTH HERSELF IN FINE LINEN,BRIGHT AND CLEAN;FOR THE FINE LINEN IS THE RIGHTEOUS ACTS OF THE SAINTS."

The description is hardly deniable both verses using identical words and language. in making this observation, first it is not denying that Christ is accompanied by his Angels we know that from other passages, but we see that He is also Accompanied by another group and I contend that this group is the RESURRECTED and THE CHANGED Believers.

The "ARMIES / SAINTS" are NO WHERE in scripture said to ascend further than meeting the Lord, but instead is presupposed because of events pictured during the "MARRIAGE SUPPER & AND BEMA SEAT" as well as the description of the "HEAVENLY THRONE ROOM" but, scripture is not clear as to where that "THRONE ROOM" is located at the present time, but does give clear indication as to where it will be located during the KINGDOM age....

REVELATION 21:3

"AND I HEARD A LOUD VOICE FROM THE THRONE,SAYING BEHOLD,THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS AMONG MEN,AND HE SHALL DWELL AMONG THEM,AND THEY SHALL BE HIS PEOPLE,AND GOD HIMSELF SHALL BE AMONG THEM,"

presupposition always leads to confusion, arguments, and debates a normative reading and simplistic understanding and comparison of scripture with scripture generally brings clarity.

By the way I did not read the OP, so if their is some similarity it is due to reaching these conclusions by my own studies and rendering of scripture.

GOD-BLESS,
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!
Clarence

by **good4u1** on Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:56 am

Thank you, Slick.

It is indeed very similar to the OP and the author I pulled from conclusions. I personally think it is a more accurate picture of what the teachings of Jesus state and what the Pauline letters attempt to explain regarding the who, what, how, where and when parameters of the Rapture or change into immortal state for believers. Believers will be here on earth. We are not leaving earth. Period. We are made of earth and earth is our home. Those that have gone before us are in a temporary abode in the presence of Jesus (heaven if you like) and have awareness of their being, I believe. But they yet are to return to their glorified earthly tents to administer the Kingdom Age as God has promised them.

I LOVED those books. Did I say I loved those books? I think it will clear up a lot of misinformed teaching on this subject of the Rapture.

by **nike** on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:36 am

I may have missed this, but has anyone explained who the multitude is before the throne after the sixth seal?

by **slick** on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:46 am

nike wrote:I may have missed this, but has anyone explained who the multitude is before the throne after the sixth seal?

Hello Nike,

The Multitude are the saints who have been changed /resurrected at the Parousia coming depicted in Revelation 19. I suspect you bring up this because you believe this passage (Revelation 6) shows the rapture! and you would be correct, however the error is in the timeline that you believe is shown! look carefully at the , PEOPLE,PLACE,ACTIVITIES that are going on and present in Revelation 6 then look again at the same things shown in Revelation 19.....the similarity can hardly be unnoticed, and in fact in my conclusion are indeed one in the same.
God-Bless,
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!,
Clarence

by **nike** on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:59 am

So is that scene on earth or in heaven, Slick?

by **slick** on Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:14 am

nike wrote:So is that scene on earth or in heaven, Slick?

Hello Nike,
My Guess is that it is on Earth. Although scripture is not clear.
GOD-BLESS,
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!,
Clarence

by **nike** on Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:59 am

But if John is taken into the throne room of God and given this vision, and he sees this multitude around the throne, and he is told that these are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation, doesn't Revelation 7 imply that it is in heaven? Because every aspect of his vision up until that point has been God in heaven sending horses or the seal events from the throne room in heaven, right?

by **slick** on Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:59 pm

[quote="nike"]But if John is taken into the throne room of God and given this vision, and he sees this multitude around the throne, and he is told that these are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation, doesn't Revelation 7 imply that it is in heaven? Because every aspect of his vision up until that point has been God in heaven sending horses or the seal events from the throne room in heaven, right?[/quot

Hello Nike,

I agree that John Is "Up" in Heaven (a place that most certainly exists) at the time of his visions (well now also :grin:

) and so the perspective that we see in scripture would appear to indicate that is where the actual events will play out, but closely looking at the corresponding texts seem to indicate a different scenario.

The Throne room scene as depicted by John is difficult to understand because the actual recording took place some 2000 years ago, but the depiction is of events far future from Johns time. I know that many including your father believe that John was transported into the future, but that is only a guess as we are not given those details. as such John is seeing future events while being in the Then Current Throne room which was and is at the moment located in a place we call Heaven. but we know that in the time of the Kingdom GODS Throne will be in New Jerusalem ON EARTH, it is difficult to place the transition with any accuracy due to the scriptures silence, but we can assume that it will be at or near the scene in Revelation 19, because in the close of Rev 18 it mentions Jesus has begun to Reign.

GOD-BLESS,
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!
Clarence

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:24 pm

slick wrote: I agree that John Is "Up" in Heaven (a place that most certainly exists) at the time of his visions (well now also ) and so the perspective that we see in scripture would appear to indicate that is where the actual events will play out, but closely looking at the corresponding texts seem to indicate a different scenario.

If I may....

Scripture indicates that John is "in the spirit" while seeing the things recorded in Revelation. Visions, like those of Paul's friend, and Peter's, are not necessarily defined by time and space as in the natural. If I'm overlooking a verse that says differently, I'll stand corrected, but these are the ones that relate the manner of the visions:

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet....(Revelation 1:10)

Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne.
(Revelation 4:2)

And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. (Revelation 17:3)

And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God....(Revelation 21:10)

37 or so times, John relates the things he "saw" while "in the spirit." Just as Peter had a vision into the spiritual realm while in the process of preparing dinner, John saw into the spiritual realm which is not limited by time and/or space as we know it. Unless otherwise stated, he did not physically go to another physical location as Philip did in Acts 8 where he was physically transported from one place to another albeit both places on earth.

by **good4u1** on Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:43 pm

I will submit also that heaven is not necessarily "up" but around us! "Up" is merely a human expression for heaven. Heaven does not have locality, as in a time/space continuum but is in another dimension that human senses cannot ascertain so both Abiding and Slick are technically correct, imo. God on rare occasions have given privileged human beings access to this spiritual dimension to achieve his own purposes. But one day, glorified saints too will have access to this dimension! How cool is that! :cheer:

by **nike** on Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:39 pm

Slick, Revelation 4 definitely says to Come Up, so I think that we can say that he is taken 'up' and then Johns says he sees a throne in heaven. Therefore, in this context, John is up and heaven is up. I don't care if it is a spiritual realm or way, way up, but it definitely is up. But to say that this throne room that John is describing and recording everything from is actually the one located on earth in the New Jerusalem, when John was also shown while in the throne room the new heavens and new earth created, plus the descending of the New Jerusalem...it's really a stretch. Sorry - carry on without me.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:52 pm

Nike, the word "up" not a matter of major significance imo, but whether or not he was called "up" physically or "in the spirit" is. We have sufficient support in scripture that those who have visions do so in the spirit in a spiritual realm or state. I hope we can agree on that point.

by **slick** on Sat Oct 01, 2011 6:13 pm

nike wrote:Slick, But to say that this throne room that John is describing and recording everything from is actually the one located on earth in the New Jerusalem, when John was also shown while in the throne room the new heavens and new earth created, plus the descending of the New Jerusalem...it's really a stretch.

Hello Nike,
No I believe John was called up, but what I am saying is that what He was seeing was being shown to him in vision form.....and as such transition from the Heavenly Throne room to what He was seeing in the future was indistinguishable.GODS throne room is GODS throne oom, and I suspect it will be the same no matter where it is located at any given time.

GOD-BLESS,

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!
Clarence

by **Shelby** on Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:24 pm

Hello

When Jesus returns at the end on a white horse, His bride(armies of heaven) will be following Him on their own white horses and wearing fine linen bright and clean. I was getting ready to point this out and I see Clarence did already.

Rev 19
Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. 8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” 9 Then the angel said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he added, “These are the true words of God.” 10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
The Rider on the White Horse
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean

by **Douggg** on Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:44 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
aaron wrote: I think I have a greater understanding into why you and others believe that we won't be caught up into the sky.

aaron, please read my post again...

I don't deny that we will meet the Lord in the air/sky/clouds. I only deny it's clear that "air/sky/clouds" means anything other than the atmosphere on the earth.

Hi abiding, what do you do with this one....

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

If that is the heaven side of Acts 1, whereby the disciples saw Jesus ascend and disappear into a cloud, then beyond that the air is the transitional space between dimensions.

At the Rapture, do we end up in heaven?

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

I believe that place is the New Jerusalem. Jesus has been in heaven creating the New Jerusalem. It is in heaven, not on this earth. Jesus has not been preparing a place for us here on this earth. Therefore, the resurrection of the dead and the changing of those who are alive when Jesus comes to receive us unto himself, the destination will be to heaven, in the New Jerusalem. Which we will have access to even during the millennial reign.

Doug