No one knows the day or the hour...

[Keeping Alert]

"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

This is probably one of the most quoted verse in eschatology.

But I am not sure what this verse means.

Who was it addressed to? Is it addressed to the disciples listening to Jesus or to a future audience? How come the Son does not know the day or the hour? Does the Son not know the day or the hour even now?

Many here have said that we cannot know the day or the hour but we can surely know the season. How then can the Mayans estimate the season so well to set a date in December 2012 centuries even before Israel came into being again in 1947? While most of us here do not believe this date to be the end, yet most of us here do believe that we are indeed in the season. I believe that Satan in the general know of what that date and hour is. Can Jesus be any less wiser on this matter?

Thanks for your input.

Blessings,
KA

[mark s]

Hi KA,

I think that the only reasonable understanding of that passage is that it was true at the time it was stated, however, I think it is unreasonable to think that anything is unknown to Jesus now. Having been received back into heaven, and having been glorified, would it not be reasonable to think that His divine attributes were entirely restored to Him, including all-knowing?

So it seems to me that He must now know the "day and hour". But can we? I don't really think so.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Keeping Alert]

Hi Mark,

I would agree. The only reasonable way to understand it is that it was not known to the audience then.

But is there anything in the passage or in scripture that says that all future generations cannot know the day or hour, since the passage is not addressed to us and therefore not applicable?

Not that I know the day or the hour but I recall that one of the prophets was able to tell quite accurately that it was time for the Israelites to be released from captivity (can't recall who off hand) - could it not that perhaps somewhere there is a clue that some current day prophet of God would pick up and pin-point the day and the hour? (Especially since there are things are are sealed till the end of times)

Blessings,
KA

[Tevye]

"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

This is probably one of the most quoted verse in eschatology.

But I am not sure what this verse means

One thing I've noticed in sermons and radio messages
is that many people, leave out the words "of that"
and in other translations the word "about"
from before the phrase 'day or hour'
giving the idea that people will not know
that moment in time.
Could the verse in it's passage context
have a different meaning...?
Could it be meant to say that concerning (about) the events of that day
or what it will really look like on that day, no one knows?
I think that many people use this passage, this verse, to say something
other than what it was intended for.

“No one knows about that day or hour,
not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
.... As it was in the days of Noah,...”

The passage in context goes on to describe what it will be like when Yeshua appears
not when it will be, drawing the reader towards a what, and not a when.

So is it safe to say that people will know "the when" Yeshua will return? Yes.
Is it unsafe to project a time frame (verses a specific day) for His appearing
based on the information given to us by biblical prophecy
and by interpreting the signs (or sign) of His coming and of the end of this age?
No. Or else He would not have given us the information to look up for our redemption.
So much information floods scripture and points to when He will appear in glory.
One specific sign clearly shows us when He will arrive.
Until that sign happens all others who claim to be Christ are false
and He gave us His word to prove it.

But, a following verse says to:

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.”
The passage here is indicating that those who are not watchful will be caught unaware at His appearing.
Not so much that they will not know when He is coming in general terms of the when.
Those who are watching and preparing for His appearing will take what they have learned
and know that His appearing is near, soon, and they will not be caught off guard as a thief in the night.
The actual day or hour is not as important for us to know as the fact that He will appear.
In this we can say with confidence that He will be returning when and just as He said He would.

[Abiding in His Word]

I think that the only reasonable understanding of that passage is that it was true at the time it was stated, however, I think it is unreasonable to think that anything is unknown to Jesus now. Having been received back into heaven, and having been glorified, would it not be reasonable to think that His divine attributes were entirely restored to Him, including all-knowing?

Agreed!

[Tevye]

Scripture tells us that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I imagine that Jesus is the same in His knowledge and understanding
before He was here, when He was here, and after He was here.
Even as a child He surprised people by His knowledge
indicating He had understanding greatly surpassing someone of His age.

"After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers,
listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed
at his understanding and his answers. When his parents saw him, they were astonished."
Luke 2

Is it possible that He had (or has) no need of restoration in His understanding?
That He knows what He knows and that some things are reserved for the Father alone?
In the sense that Jesus is the groom in this picture and we are His bride
the groom is waiting for the Father to say when...or go and get her.
Implicating in the message that there is something reserved for the Father alone
and that even Jesus is waiting for that moment when He can go to gather up His bride.
I think that Jesus knew this, and gave glory in this one thing to His Father.

It is the Father who gives Jesus the scroll, could there be the moment in time
sealed within the message of the scroll, and when the certain seal is broken
then hidden in that seal is the directive from the Father to the Son to go?

Isn't there a similar message in the historical Hebrew wedding?

Step 2 – The Period of Separation

After the covenant or contract had been established, the groom would return to his father’s house to prepare a place for His new bride, a bridal chamber in his father’s house where the bride and groom could be together.

John 14:1-3 – “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Neither the bride nor groom knew WHEN the groom would return for the bride because the bridal chamber that he was preparing for his bride had to be approved of by his father.

Mark 13:31-34 – “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.”

And like so, the bride would watch for her husbands return, anxiously, keeping the oil in her lamp full in case he came at night. Watching and longing for his return, while preparing herself for her future with him. All this time learning the ways of the married so as to give her husband the best marriage that she possibly could.

[Abiding in His Word]

Neither the bride nor groom knew WHEN the groom would return for the bride because the bridal chamber that he was preparing for his bride had to be approved of by his father.

Is that scriptural?

[Abiding in His Word]

"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing...John 5:20

[Tevye]

While it is true that Jesus is fully God
it is also possible that He has chosen to not know something
for the sake of glorifying His Father and honoring His bride.

Preparing a Place

Just as a bridegroom would have told his bride that he would go to prepare a place for her, so Jesus told His disciples: "...In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. -- John 13:1-3.

Just as in ancient Israel, the bridegroom could go for his bride only after his father approved, so Jesus said: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert ! You do not know when that time will come -- Mark 13:32-33

If Jesus did not know something and then knew something
as if in a restoration of knowledge, then He would not be all knowing.
He would not have been God in the person of who He was in His flesh.
But He was God in the flesh, with all of His attributes, including knowledge.
Although, He is God and can choose to give up the authority of knowing to the Father,
as if to veil Himself and give the glory in this matter to the Father, to glorify the Father.
In return at the appointed time, the Father will send the son, and bring the Son glory.
I believe it's about honor, something we have lost in our time. Honor in marriage.

Preparing a Place

During the betrothal period, the bridegroom would prepare a wedding chamber for the honeymoon. This chamber was typically built in the bridegroom's father's house. The wedding chamber had to be a beautiful place to bring the bride. The bride and groom were to spend seven days there. The wedding chamber had to be built to the groom's father's specifications. The young man could go for his bride only when his father approved. If the bridegroom was asked when the wedding was to be, he might well say "it is not for me to know, only my father knows".

[Tevye]

I don't fully understand it, how Yeshua could know everything, yet not know something.
To me it doesn't make sense, but in a way it does. As if He wants not to know when.
Have you ever wanted to know something, and yet not wanted to know it?
Like it would ruin the surprise, knowing everything about it.

It's like faith, we don't see what we wait for, but we wait for it, in faith.

[Abiding in His Word]

During the betrothal period, the bridegroom would prepare a wedding chamber for the honeymoon. This chamber was typically built in the bridegroom's father's house. The wedding chamber had to be a beautiful place to bring the bride.

Well, Tevye, there are many things we don't know for certain, but in those cases, we might want to acknowledge they are speculations. The above, for example, may be "tradition" but is it scriptural? I don't think so for two reasons. First, Genesis tells us that the man is to leave his father and mother to cleave to his wife. To me, this clearly says that he goes to the location where his wife is to be joined to her. And second, we know from Revelation that the final dwelling place for believers (the bride) is on the restored earth and that Jesus will dwell with them there. In other words, He abides by the original design for marriage in that He leaves His Father in heaven to cleave to his bride in the location where she is.

That's how I see it anyway. One is speculation based on tradition and the other scenario is based (imho) on scripture.

Just for consideration....

[Tevye]

Good point!

I think this helped me understand the paradox:
(just found it)

If we were to look at the cultural context, we can get a much better understanding
of what was Jesus may have been alluding to when he said that only the Father knows.

In that historical and cultural context when a man was going to marry a woman, it was usually prearranged. The bridegroom would be living with his family and he would begin to build an addition onto his father's house where he and his future wife would live. It was the custom for the father of the home to be the one who designated when the addition was finished. This meant that only the father knew when the son would be told to go get the bride. But, does this mean that the son would not know when he had to go to get the bride? Not necessarily, and this is why.

A wedding was a community affair where many many people would be invited. This required advance notice so that people could allot the necessary time to attend the wedding and wedding feast. This means that some would have to put their animals away for the day, not work in the field that day, not have business dealings that day, et cetera. In a culture where there is no Internet, phone, or radio, things were done well in advance so that people could plan ahead.

Furthermore, a wedding feast also meant that large amounts of food would have to be prepared in order for all the guests to have something to eat. These kinds of arrangements were not done on the spur of the moment. The arrangements were done weeks, sometimes months in advance. Therefore, to alleviate anyone missing the wedding feast due to a spontaneous invitation that they could not attend, arrangements were made well in advance.

But, in order to maintain the respect and dignity of the father's place in the home, it would naturally be said "that only the father knows" when it would be time for the son to go get the bride. This did not necessitate that the son did not know because the community would have to know within a reasonable degree of accuracy when the wedding would occur. Therefore, Jesus may have been alluding to the phraseology housed in the wedding and wedding feast culture that did not necessarily mean he did not know or the Holy Spirit did not know the time of his return.
carm.org

Which makes perfect sense, that even if He chooses to not know the very moment He will depart for His bride
or even if He does know, the times (the signs) leading up to His departure for His bride would clearly indicate
that His impending departure is near. We can sense it as anitcipation builds for the moment He will appear.
The Groom and the bride eagerly await, along with all creation, the sons (and daughters) of God to be revealed.

I think we have lost so much in our western culture when it comes to honor, from as it was in Yeshua's day.
if we study history alongside of the culture of the biblical days, I believe we can get a better grasp on prophecy.

[aaron]

"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

We've had this discussion before and I realize that not everyone agrees this verse is significant, but this verse I believe could be one of the most significant prophetic verses in the Bible. I believe this verse tells us when the bridegroom is coming for His bride. The Spring feasts were fulfilled with Christ's first coming, with His second coming, the Fall feasts will be fulfilled. "No one knows the day or the hour" refers to only one feast, the Feast of Trumpets. It falls on a new moon, and anyone familiar with Jewish feasts will know what feast you're talking about when you say "no one knows the day or the hour" it will begin. It begins on the new moon, on the 29th or 30th of the month, no one knows the day or the hour though.

This feast also should be cross-referenced to a traditional Jewish wedding. "No one knows the day or the hour" that the bridegroom comes for his bride, but she needs to be ready. The parable of the ten virgins shows that five were wise and five foolish. The bridegroom would come 'like a thief in the night' for his bride and they would go to the bridal chamber for a week, then there would be a feast. A marriage supper. Very similar to what is pictured in Revelation. To me the symbolism is too great to be ignored.

Since the feast is marked by shofar/trumpet blasts, it is reasonable to assume Christ is coming like a thief in the night for His bride on the last trump on the Feast of Trumpets.

Ultimately, we need to watch and be always ready. When He comes, I can tell you this without a doubt, I won't be looking back and longing for anything on this sinful, broken world. Even so come quickly, Lord Jesus!

[Tevye]

thank you Arron!

Scripture and biblical culture (handed down through the generations)
are like a tapestry, beautifully woven together to give us the whole story.
If we take out the cultural aspect, then the whole story will begin to unravel
and we will lose the heart, the feeling of what the creator has intended for us to see.
I believe that Christ was a Jew at heart, and His life was immersed in the Jewish culture.
Salvation is of the Jews, not that it is for them alone, but that it is of them, in Christ alone.
God choose them, even in their challenging ways, to enhance by their culture, His message to us.
This is why the world wants to snuff them out, to remove them from this world
because they are the key to understanding the message of the true God of all creation.
If we get in touch with their culture, not to give up our own so much
but to be grafted into the feasts and the passions of their spirit as a people
we can see, as if through a mirror dimly, the heart of the One who chose them
to represent Him and His message for our deliverance. The apple of His eye.

Then I looked up—and there before me was a man with a measuring line in his hand!
I asked, “Where are you going?” He answered me, “To measure Jerusalem, to find out how wide and how long it is.”
Then the angel who was speaking to me left, and another angel came to meet him and said to him: “Run, tell that young
man, ‘Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the great number of men and livestock in it. And I myself will be
a wall of fire around it,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will be its glory within.’
“Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north,” declares the LORD, “for I have scattered you to the four winds of heaven,”
declares the LORD. “Come, O Zion! Escape, you who live in the Daughter of Babylon!” For this is what the LORD Almighty
says: “After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you
—for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye—
I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them.
Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me.

“Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the LORD.
“Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you
and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion
in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. Be still before the LORD, all mankind,
because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling.”
Zechariah 2

We too are threads woven in with care to God's glorious tapestry
and one day He will reveal the work of His hands, and we will rejoice.
We will celebrate, and He will rejoice over us. We will see Him smile.

"How He Loves" - ((video link))

[Abiding in His Word]

Just for the record, I do believe an understanding of the culture helps in interpreting many scriptures that seem confusing otherwise. But the Jews had many cultural traditions which were not intended nor ordained by God and with the passage of time, they came to believed as scriptural. We know that because Jesus reprimanded the Pharisees as their traditions often contradicted the commands of God. (Matt. 15:3)

So while the culture may indeed be woven through scripture, are we to build doctrines or even theories based on cultural practices when they contradict the written Word? The word "thief" is always spoken of in negative terms in scripture. Jesus said of the thief, "... "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy...."

Do we know of scripture that ordains the practice of a man surprising a woman at her abode to "steal" her away for his wife as a command for marriage? Or even condones or implies that such a practice as commanded or approved by God?

[Tevye]

True,
I hope I'm understanding what you're saying Abiding
and not just rambling on aimlessly.

I don't know if He ever confronted them on their wedding culture?
i know according to scripture He participated in a Hebrew wedding celebration.
I believe it was Yeshua who interjected His culture into His prophecy.
So it would be natural for us to take what He said
and look into the culture of the world He lived in
to see the depth of what the message He is giving us.

While it is known that there is an element in Judiasm that is superstitious
and not based upon scriptures, it would be interesting to see what elements
of their historical wedding culture is connected to the scriptures
and has bearing upon what Jesus taught.

There is His parable in relation to a Jewish style wedding
in reference to His appearing, and I would imagine
that being consistent, though not referencing it
He would give prophecy in line with what He was teaching.
I can't imagine that Jesus would have formed His parable
according to the wedding culture of another people other than His own people.
He would have drawn from the people whom He was rasied up from
He is the Lion of Judah.

As to the thief, I know that in relation to His appearing
that those who are not watching for His coming will be caught off guard
as if He was arriving to them as a thief in the night.
But we are not in darkness, that this day would overtake us like a thief.
I believe that according to scripture His appearing will be very visible for all to see.
But, for those who are not watching according to what He said would be
for them He will be as a thief, coming to take away their style of life, and replace it with His wrath.

For the bride I don't believe that she, who will be watching (for the sign)
will be caught off guard, or carried off as if by a thief, nor will the groom be to her as a thief.
But, that for them both, that day will be as a groom who carries His bride to the bridal chamber
and for others it will be as if He had stole her away from them, and they are left behind to face His wrath.
She will be, and is, His treasure, and will present her to His Father on that day in His house
and then He will "do His work, his strange work, and perform his task, his alien task" -Isaiah 28
as she kept safe at the home of His father. When He is done, then she will join Him in His kingdom.
In that kingdom He will still be the Lion of Judah, and the Jewish culture will still be His culture.
Yet, the peoples of all the nations will bring to Him their cultures, minus the false gods.
they will embrace Him, and accept His culture as they celebrate the Jewish feast in His kingdom.
If they do not, then they will experience...

"Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them. If the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the LORD smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths."
Zechariah 14

[aaron]

While I don't endorse going outside of Scripture for doctrinal basis, I do look at the person speaking in Scripture and who they're speaking to. The wonderful thing about Jewish culture is their oral tradition of passing down God's word from generation to generation and their ability to carry on the traditions that Jesus disapproved of as you mentioned. Reading about Jewish tradition is fascinating, but if it contradicts Scripture, of course reject it.

From what I've read about ancient Jewish wedding practices, the groom did show up unexpected. I don't think our modern American culture can understand why, but it's what they did. The wedding feast seven days later is also a head-scratcher as we always have the wedding reception right after the wedding in America. As far as some examples from Scripture, this is what's on my mind at the moment regarding the marriage supper:

6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Rev. 19

As far as where the marriage tradition originated, this could be a possibility ... I'm just guessing as I could never prove where the wedding tradition officially began:
22 And Laban gathered together all the men of the place and made a feast. 23 Now it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter and brought her to Jacob; and he went in to her. 24 And Laban gave his maid Zilpah to his daughter Leah as a maid. 25 So it came to pass in the morning, that behold, it was Leah. And he said to Laban, “What is this you have done to me? Was it not for Rachel that I served you? Why then have you deceived me?”
26 And Laban said, “It must not be done so in our country, to give the younger before the firstborn. 27 Fulfill her week, and we will give you this one also for the service which you will serve with me still another seven years.”
28 Then Jacob did so and fulfilled her week. So he gave him his daughter Rachel as wife also. Gen 29:22-28

So I see Laban referring to the tradition of his country, then instructing to fulfill her week. Perhaps the week after the bridegroom came for the bride began here.

Born and raised in America, I don't understand these traditions myself, I just take them into consideration when thinking about Jesus, a Jew, speaking to other Jewish people.

Abiding, Are you coming at things from the view that the cultural context should be rejected and only the words considered? I understand that approach, as things get cloudier in the church as the Lord nears and people keep scratching their ears. I find myself wanting to separate myself from our culture as it gets darker.

Perhaps it's the history that intrigues me anyway, and the wonder of the Lord being the bridegroom and His body the bride. I think you know I'm not trying to maliciously interject Jewish tradition into God's Word as doctrine. The things I've mentioned are what I've discovered about the history of the Feast of Trumpets and ancient jewish wedding practices.

Maybe I'm a history buff ... or maybe I'm just homesick.

[aaron]

This is a discussion I've been wanting to have ... how far you go in consideration of the cultural context of Scripture before you go too far. I'm a layman when it comes to Bible study, not a master of divinity. I'm excited to have it around this theme, I hope KA doesn't mind the little topic diversion, for a minute ... I'd be open to starting another thread too if that works.

[Abiding in His Word]

I hope KA doesn't mind the little topic diversion, for a minute ... I'd be open to starting another thread too if that works.

I was just thinking the same thing, aaron. I can split this thread to include the posts that got off topic. Or you can start another thread if you like.