Reinforcing the Pre-trib Rapture

[Keeping Alert]

I always cannot comprehend how people can read 2Thessalonians 2 intently and come up with a conclusion other than a Pre-trib rapture. If the rapture is anything other than pre-trib, why are the Thessalonians admonished not to be "soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

I happened to do 1 and 2 Thessalonians today and I noticed another point that may reinforce the pre-trib rapture.

It is the idea of wrath.

Well, wrath could mean a lot of things in the whole biblical context but proper hermeneutics would need us to ask what did Paul understand when he wrote the word "wrath" in Thessalonians?

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. - 1Thess 1:10

Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost. - 1Thess 2:16

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, - 1Thess 5:9

We all know 1Thess 5:9 and we have been debating over it forever... what type of wrath are we not appoint to?

1Thess 1:10 is of the same vein.

Perhaps in 1Thess 2:16, Paul is defining for us that wrath... it is the wrath that is stored up against the Jews...

starting from verse 14

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; F3 and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Smack in the middle of 2 mentions of wrath, is this verse about the wrath stored up for the Jews who killed our Lord Jesus Christ. I would think that the wrath that we are not appointed to, refers to this wrath is that stored up for the Jews.

When does the rapture happen? From what I understand about eschatology and what happens in the end-times, the rapture must happen first, then the wrath reserved for the Jews (and also the world) will be poured out which eventually would result in the salvation of the Jews.

Hallelujah! Maranatha!

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi KA,

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, - 1Thess 5:9

We all know 1Thess 5:9 and we have been debating over it forever... what type of wrath are we not appoint to?

We are spared from God's wrath- whatever form it takes either here on earth or in eternity.

I always cannot comprehend how people can read 2Thessalonians 2 intently and come up with a conclusion other than a Pre-trib rapture.

Well after reading the debate forum on this subject, I can see how they believe it, they spell it out pretty well why they believe what they do, but like you- I cannot agree with their logic. To me it all boils down to what foundation you base your interpretation on. They interpret based on the foundation that the rapture is something other than pre-trib, or they have a replacement view as their foundation, or they see prophecy as allegorical. The rest of interpretation is based on that foundation and so the whole thing takes a very different path. For a while I saw a pre-wrath rapture, or mid trib, but as I tried to build on that foundation, other things in scripture just didn't seem to line up to me anyway. I have found no contradiction in scripture that would deny a pre-trib rapture. Albeit, my view is slightly different than the traditional pre-trib view, but still it seems to me the most logical and scripturally supported view.

RT

[Keeping Alert]

We are spared from God's wrath- whatever form it takes either here on earth or in eternity.

Hi RT,

You are absolutely right but I wonder if we could narrow it down and get into the mind of Paul... was Paul having thoughts of eternal wrath or something here on earth (and of course ultimately eternal from there on)? And if something here on earth, what is it?

I would tend to believe that it is something here on earth... Paul frequently spoke of tribulation and suffering that the Thessalonians had to face while on earth but he reassured them that they were saved from the wrath to come. Well, that wrath should be something that happens on earth to have real meaning to those suffering tribulation. And then in the 1Thess 2:16, he seemed to clarify that it is God's wrath meant for the Jews.

And if that is so, then we will be outta here before the Jews get a lesson of their lifetime... by-standers ain't going to be spared either and especially so in the later part of the end-game...

Blessings,
KA

[mark s]

OK, so what is the wrath that comes upon the Jews, as opposed to everyone?

Can we Biblically define that?

For instance, some of the bowls of wrath are general, all the water turned to blood, for instance. There is the darkness on the kingdom of antichrist. So these, I think, are not that wrath.

What then is the wrath that is specifically upon the Jews?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Keeping Alert]

Hi Mark,

Is not the whole 7 years about the Jews?

I don't think it is about the epic battle of Armaggeddon where good comes against evil and good prevails. If God wanted to wipe off anything anti-Christ, He would not even need to lift a finger to do it.

I believe the 7 years is about the salvation of the Jews. His wrath is wrapped in love for his very elect that they will one day worship the very God who created them. And once that is done, God's wrath will pour out fiercely on those who persecuted the Jews...

I believe the fierce persecution upon the Jews and their nation until the point of their salvation would count as God's wrath upon the Jews.

I have not searched out references but at least these are the things that are congruent in my end-time understanding.

Blessings,
KA

[mark s]

Hi KA,

The basis for my question is this. It's tribulation, not necessarily wrath, that will bring the Jews to salvation in the 70th week. I believe the destruction of Jerusalem was considered God's wrath upon Israel, if I'm remembering correctly. Would the antichrist's persecution of the Jews be considered God's wrath upon them?

So therefore, what is the wrath specifically that we're talking about?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Keeping Alert]

I do think that the wrath that Paul had in mind was the "end-time" wrath. The destruction of the temple and the sacking of Jerusalem were but a foreshadow of things future.

The reason why I think so is because of the way that Paul links the word "wrath" to

And to wait for his Son from heaven.... which delivered us from the wrath to come (1Thess 1:10)

for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost (1Thess 2:16)

And of course the famous 1Thess 5:9 is about the very Day of the Lord (verse 2)

Well, at least that is how I see it.

Blessings,
KA

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I believe that the wrath on earth during the 70th week are the judgments of God. During the tribulation this is spelled out pretty clearly- the bowls that are mixed with the wrath of God and poured out on the earth. God's wrath is reserved for the rebellious, both Jew and Gentile, who refuse to repent and be saved. Remember the verse from Revelation that says something like "blessed are those who die in the Lord" those who will be martyred during the 70th week, are blessed for several reasons- first of all because they are believers and will receive the eternal reward, but death for them will be a blessing, they will escape the wrath of God and the worst of events that will befall mankind.

I do not see that Israel will be the subject of God's wrath, only that those rebellious will be. Israel will be judged, they will be refined by the fires of the Lord's chastisement, brought about through the trumpet judgments and by the actions of the Antichrist who the Lord will appoint to discipline them for their disobedience in order to bring them to repentance. These disciplinary actions will befall all those who are on earth. The Lord will give every man opportunity to repent, and I believe many will, both Jew and gentile. Those who do will greet death happily (relatively speaking), knowing that they will escape God's wrath both here on earth and in eternity. The demonic inspired armies from the pit kill one third of mankind- I believe that these are those who will repent who will become those martyred ones killed because of their testimony and because of the word, who will be raised to reign with Christ at the end of the tribulation.

RT

[lookup]

Something interesting I read yesterday:

Jesus compared the last days to 2 things, a wedding & birth pains. So unless God is going to commit prophetic fornication and allow the baby before the wedding, then the rapture has to come first. Otherwise you people are telling others that God breaks his own rules. Who wants to serve a hypocritical god? Only those who serve satan would tolerate that non-sense from their god. If I must practice what I preach, then so does my God!

[Mark F]

Something interesting I read yesterday:

Jesus compared the last days to 2 things, a wedding & birth pains. So unless God is going to commit prophetic fornication and allow the baby before the wedding, then the rapture has to come first. Otherwise you people are telling others that God breaks his own rules. Who wants to serve a hypocritical god? Only those who serve satan would tolerate that non-sense from their god. If I must practice what I preach, then so does my God!

Jesus compared His return to the days of Noah in Matthew 24, is that the wedding your referring to? Marrying and giving in marriage? Just wondering.....

[mark s]

imo, we shouldn't get too caught up in the metaphors. They're simply word pictures used to illustrate something.

[Jericho]

E. Schuyler English, wrote an interesting book in 1954, Rethinking the Rapture. He looked at the linguistics of the Greek word, apostasia, usually translated as “apostasy.” He noted that the six English translations preceding the KJV translated the word as “departure.” Should II Thess 2:3 read, Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departure first?

http://www.prophecyinthenews.com/videos/tv-program/

Thoughts?

[lookup]

Something interesting I read yesterday:

Jesus compared the last days to 2 things, a wedding & birth pains. So unless God is going to commit prophetic fornication and allow the baby before the wedding, then the rapture has to come first. Otherwise you people are telling others that God breaks his own rules. Who wants to serve a hypocritical god? Only those who serve satan would tolerate that non-sense from their god. If I must practice what I preach, then so does my God!

Jesus compared His return to the days of Noah in Matthew 24, is that the wedding your referring to? Marrying and giving in marriage? Just wondering.....

No, I thought it was referring to Revelation 12 and Revelation 19 when I read it. And I, after re-reading all these post, realize that I shouldn't have posted this here.