The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit, Not Michael the Archangel

[The Orange Mailman]

Further, since Paul does not name the individual person who restrains, but simply states that the Thessalonians know who it is, this points to the fact that it could be easily referenced by another scripture. An oral tradition starting with Paul would have been unlikely in the face of a supposed false letter which had circulated which he was attempting to disprove, see II Thess. 2:2. Then as he closes the letter, he makes sure that he notes that every epistle he writes will be signed personally by Paul, see II Thess. 3:17.

Paul was clear that the doctrines that he taught were written down. The fact that he points them to knowledge that they already possess shows that it was written down somewhere else. The Thessalonians epistles are among the first New Testament writings to be written. This would point us to the law, the psalms, and the prophets for further information. Since Daniel contains specific revelation concerning the man of sin of whom Paul writes, this would be the logical place to start for the identity of the restrainer.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[shorttribber]

to most of it OM......you know where we differ.......now sit back n have a snack

[Resurrection Torchlight]

If you are referring to Daniel 12:1, then yes it would be only a clue, along with the rest........but i gave you this one

Daniel 10:
21 But I will shew thee that which is ........noted in the scripture....... of................... TRUTH:............... and [there is] none that................. holdeth..................... with me..... in these things, but Michael your prince.



"Holdeth"....strongs 2388......"restrains"



That's proof....from scripture.......not just a clue

Actually the word does not mean restrain according to strongs as you quoted- the definition says nothing about restraining:

1stands
Strong's Hebrew #2388
2388 חָזַק [chazaq /khaw·zak/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 636; GK 2616; 290 occurrences; AV translates as “strong” 48 times, “repair” 47 times, “hold” 37 times, “strengthened” 28 times, “strengthen” 14 times, “harden” 13 times, “prevail” 10 times, “encourage” nine times, “take” nine times, “courage” eight times, “caught” five times, “stronger” five times, “hold” five times, and translated miscellaneously 52 times. 1 to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to be strong, grow strong. 1a1a to prevail, prevail upon. 1a1b to be firm, be caught fast, be secure. 1a1c to press, be urgent. 1a1d to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense). 1a1e to be severe, be grievous. 1a2 to strengthen. 1b (Piel). 1b1 to make strong. 1b2 to restore to strength, give strength. 1b3 to strengthen, sustain, encourage. 1b4 to make strong, make bold, encourage. 1b5 to make firm. 1b6 to make rigid, make hard. 1c (Hiphil). 1c1 to make strong, strengthen. 1c2 to make firm. 1c3 to display strength. 1c4 to make severe. 1c5 to support. 1c6 to repair. 1c7 to prevail, prevail upon. 1c8 to have or take or keep hold of, retain, hold up, sustain, support. 1c9 to hold, contain. 1d (Hithpael). 1d1 to strengthen oneself. 1d2 to put forth strength, use one’s strength. 1d3 to withstand. 1d4 to hold strongly with.
.

But I will agree that angelic beings have the ability to restrain each other, whether good or bad. The prince of Persia has just as much ability to restrain the angelic forces of good, as does the forces of good have to restrain the forces of evil. So by doing so both have the ability to restrain good or evil depending on who wins the struggle.

And I am sorry shorttribber but the context does indeed show a battle or a fight going on

I disagree here in part........you only show good evidence of Michael as a restrainer in this text.......and then.....he "stands aside/still" after the Loser is cast out.

In each place the word "stand up/amad" it is not used in the sense to stand up and fight.......it is used in the sense to "stand still"......other texts for "amad" Job 32:16, did they resists or desist? And Neh 8:5 Did they stand quietly still, or did they stand up and fight?

Daniel 10:20-21
20 Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come.
21 “However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

fight
Strong's Hebrew #3898
3898 לָחַם, לָחַם [lacham /law·kham/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 1104, 1105; GK 4309 and 4310; 177 occurrences; AV translates as “fight” 149 times, “to war” 10 times, “make war” eight times, “eat” five times, “overcome” twice, “devoured” once, “ever” once, and “prevail” once. 1 to fight, do battle, make war. 1a (Qal) to fight, do battle. 1b (Niphal) to engage in battle, wage war. 2 (Qal) to eat, use as food.

They are fighting against these forces. They aren't just standing still. Again there is no evidence in any case that Micheal is taken out of the way so as to remove any restraint. Your case that the word "stand" means to "stand still" is extremely weak in light of the context.The word has various meanings as I quoted from Strong's.
In case you missed it:

stands
Strong's Hebrew #5975
5975 עָמַד [`amad /aw·mad/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 1637; GK 6641; 521 occurrences; AV translates as “stood” 171 times, “stand” 137 times, “(raise”, “stand … ) up” 42 times, “set” 32 times, “stay” 17 times, “still” 15 times, “appointed” 10 times, “standing” 10 times, “endure” eight times, “remain” eight times, “present” seven times, “continue” six times, “withstand” six times, “waited” five times, “establish” five times, and translated miscellaneously 42 times. 1 to stand, remain, endure, take one’s stand. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to stand, take one’s stand, be in a standing attitude, stand forth, take a stand, present oneself, attend upon, be or become servant of. 1a2 to stand still, stop (moving or doing), cease. 1a3 to tarry, delay, remain, continue, abide, endure, persist, be steadfast. 1a4 to make a stand, hold one’s ground. 1a5 to stand upright, remain standing, stand up, rise, be erect, be upright. 1a6 to arise, appear, come on the scene, stand forth, appear, rise up or against. 1a7 to stand with, take one’s stand, be appointed, grow flat, grow insipid. 1b (Hiphil). 1b1 to station, set. 1b2 to cause to stand firm, maintain. 1b3 to cause to stand up, cause to set up, erect. 1b4 to present (one) before (king). 1b5 to appoint, ordain, establish. 1c (Hophal) to be presented, be caused to stand, be stood before.

And also in Revelation Micheal is not standing still, he is engaged in battle, waging war. And even if he stands still after the dragon is cast down which the passage does not claim, how does that demonstrate that he is the restrainer? Just because he stands still doesn't mean he is the restrainer spoken of in 2 Thess. And just exactly how is standing still the same as being taken out of the way? They do not mean the same thing at all.

I will agree however that as these angelic beings wage war against evil and when they win win they do restrain lawlessness, but then again so do we. They do it in the spiritual realm while we do it on earth. There are multitudes of them just as there are multitudes of believers on earth. Both act on the word of God, both are God's angels or messengers. However angelic spirits if you will, are sent to render service to those who are believers on earth.

Hebrews 1:14
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

So their duty is to serve believers. Micheal happens to be in charge of those who render service to those believers of Israel. That is apparently his duty to guard them. So where does scripture say that he restrains lawlessness or the lawless one?

Believers on earth restrain lawlessness on earth, angels restrain it in the spiritual realm. Since the lawless one needs to appear on earth to fulfill prophecy, then I still maintain that the word of God on earth is what is taken out of the way. And since Micheal kicks Satan's butt out of heaven and down to earth, then again it shows that there is no restraint on earth to impede his progress. But his time is short and he knows it, because soon Jesus will come to earth and re-instate that restraint.

RT

[lambslave]

OM, you should take a look at what I claim is the proper translation of 2:7, "And now you know the holdiing fast ...." Paul says this, and uses this word (as he did in his last letter to them), BECAUSE it is the opposite of apostacy, and he is encouraging their action "of holding fast that which is true." Find the use of these two words as opposites expressing hold fast and fall away everytime they are used together in the same passage/argument, Luke 8, Hebrews 3. The word, ton katexon (neuter, acusative) does not point to a person or angel, but to the condition they Thessdalonians they are in doing the opposite of apostacy. In light of the above, and of the fact that he ends his discussion with "so then hold fast" we should turn twoard the simplest explanation that honors the definitions and the context. When the church stops holding fast, that is the apostacy, and the man of sin will have a field day. There is no Restrainor or angel to look for, just the filling of the Holy Spirit that will eable us to do the miraculous work of spreading the gospel of the lamb. We are the apostate church avoiding the stinging fact that we are the one (as Nathan said to David). Jesus warned us of aspostacy preceding the man of sin, but we don't accept the simplest explanation of this passage because we don't like the implications. Where is the salt and light? lambslave

[shorttribber]

Actually the word does not mean restrain according to strongs as you quoted- the definition says nothing about restraining:

The strongs I have in my home does say "restrain", reprints apparently do not say restrain....mine does....don't know why

But I will agree that angelic beings have the ability to restrain each other, whether good or bad. The prince of Persia has just as much ability to restrain the angelic forces of good, as does the forces of good have to restrain the forces of evil. So by doing so both have the ability to restrain good or evil depending on who wins the struggle.

And I am sorry shorttribber but the context does indeed show a battle or a fight going on

Of course, they are shown as "withholding/restraining"....that's the point......in those instances they ARE restraining "holding against". But after the Loser is cast out as seen in Rev 12 they "stand still" and stop "restraining".

They are fighting against these forces. They aren't just standing still. Again there is no evidence in any case that Micheal is taken out of the way so as to remove any restraint. Your case that the word "stand" means to "stand still" is extremely weak in light of the context.The word has various meanings as I quoted from Strong's.
In case you missed it:

No ,I think in light of the context it is strong....that's why there is such trouble "at that time".

taken out of the way

The Lord taketh him "out of the way".............he is made to "stand aside"

for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

Is not Israel included in such ministry?

Since the lawless one needs to appear on earth to fulfill prophecy

That's right,.....on EARTH...........where the Loser will be cast to.

then again it shows that there is no restraint on earth to impede his progress.

Exactly my point

[shorttribber]

OM, you should take a look at what I claim is the proper translation of 2:7, "And now you know the holdiing fast ...." Paul says this, and uses this word (as he did in his last letter to them), BECAUSE it is the opposite of apostacy, and he is encouraging their action "of holding fast that which is true." Find the use of these two words as opposites expressing hold fast and fall away everytime they are used together in the same passage/argument, Luke 8, Hebrews 3. The word, ton katexon (neuter, acusative) does not point to a person or angel, but to the condition they Thessdalonians they are in doing the opposite of apostacy. In light of the above, and of the fact that he ends his discussion with "so then hold fast" we should turn twoard the simplest explanation that honors the definitions and the context. When the church stops holding fast, that is the apostacy, and the man of sin will have a field day. There is no Restrainor or angel to look for, just the filling of the Holy Spirit that will eable us to do the miraculous work of spreading the gospel of the lamb. We are the apostate church avoiding the stinging fact that we are the one (as Nathan said to David). Jesus warned us of aspostacy preceding the man of sin, but we don't accept the simplest explanation of this passage because we don't like the implications. Where is the salt and light? lambslave

I do believe this is a very good exegesis of the text also.

[The Orange Mailman]

Lambslave-

Wouldn't the fact that the Thessalonians were going through persecution, and would only experience relief and rest when the LORD Jesus is revealed from heaven, wouldn't that bolster their need to hold fast as the coming man of sin is revealed? It would seem if Christians only had to hold fast until the apostasy happened, then they didn't have to hold fast anymore, that would mean when the apostasy occurs that they can just give up since they are taken out of the way, not holding fast anymore.

I think my explanation does the entire passage justice and would welcome your interaction with the conclusions of my reasoning.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[The Orange Mailman]

to most of it OM......you know where we differ.......now sit back n have a snack

Hey Short Tribber-

Feel free to post those disagreements. That way others won't be misinformed thinking you agree with me when you don't.

Snack? Hmmmmm... I think some peanut butter and crackers would be great right now.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[shorttribber]

hey now that sounds like you're afraid to be seen as in agreement with me

[shorttribber]

everybody already knows anyway, what's the point? Well then again...just to quickly edit.....I'm not a big peanut butter fan either....so there's another area I guess

[mark s]

.
I'm going to relay a story, and y'all can make of it what you will.

This is a cut/paste from the email I sent to my pastor about it:

The first guy I talk to is just "odd." He knows scripture inside and out. He talks about
what's going on in the world, and he's correct. Yet, he's evasive. He doesn't really answer
my questions. Every time I ask him a question, he goes into a very weird kind of "speech."
He quotes scripture, and talks about those who are deceived (especially the Freemasons),
and never answers me. Sometimes, I feel like I'm about to get him to answer me, then
the door just slams shut. Sometimes, his "speech" seems like it's agreeable to me. Yet,
it also sometimes feels like he's attacking me. It confused me. I couldn't figure out how
to proceed. Is he a Christian? Is he a false Christian? Is he a deceiver? I bounced
between each of those opinions during our conversation (more like a monologue). It
was an encounter such like I've never had before.

After about 10+ minutes of this, I notice he has a Freemason symbol on his shirt:

http://www.risingsunlodge29.org/beta/sac_trans_bg.png

Then I start to put two and two together. I try to continue the conversation (a little
more knowledgeable at this point), to no avail. So, I tell him I have to keep moving
to talk to other people and start to leave. As I leave, I tell him I'll pray for him. His
demeanor changed instantly. He went from a mostly pleasant person to a gruff,
almost hostile person. He said with an angry voice, "Pray for yourself !" Frankly,
the transformation and hostility startled me, and even shook me up a little.

It was a weird encounter. I think now, that this man was certainly under satan's
influence, and that all he was trying to accomplish was to confuse and discourage
me so that I wouldn't talk to anyone else that night. It didn't work. I still spoke to
a few more people. But, I certainly felt as if I had been spiritually assaulted.

Hi Jeff,

What do you'all make of this? What are you intending to communicate with this little story??

Love in Christ,
Mark

[GodsStudent]

Thank you, Orange, for sharing your hours and hours of research to help us learn about our beautiful Lord.

[lambslave]

OM, But how do you answer the points of evidence I pointed to? You did not answer the translation of the neuter with gender?? You did not answer the hermaneutic rule of near context (the author's recent use of the word under discussion, 1thess5) ?? You did not answer the appropriate closing by Paul, "so then hold fast" And you finished by pointing me to your points!! If you don't have an answer, please say so. It appears that you are reading the passasge in the light of your hypothesis, or settled "doctrinal position," not following a consistent hermaneutic. lambslave

[shorttribber]

OM, you should take a look at what I claim is the proper translation of 2:7, "And now you know the holdiing fast ...." Paul says this, and uses this word (as he did in his last letter to them), BECAUSE it is the opposite of apostacy, and he is encouraging their action "of holding fast that which is true." Find the use of these two words as opposites expressing hold fast and fall away everytime they are used together in the same passage/argument, Luke 8, Hebrews 3. The word, ton katexon (neuter, acusative) does not point to a person or angel, but to the condition they Thessdalonians they are in doing the opposite of apostacy. In light of the above, and of the fact that he ends his discussion with "so then hold fast" we should turn twoard the simplest explanation that honors the definitions and the context. When the church stops holding fast, that is the apostacy, and the man of sin will have a field day. There is no Restrainor or angel to look for, just the filling of the Holy Spirit that will eable us to do the miraculous work of spreading the gospel of the lamb. We are the apostate church avoiding the stinging fact that we are the one (as Nathan said to David). Jesus warned us of aspostacy preceding the man of sin, but we don't accept the simplest explanation of this passage because we don't like the implications. Where is the salt and light? lambslave

Having already agreed that this is a good understanding of the text lambslave, I would like to suggest that it could very well be a subtle blend of both ideas.

We do wrestle against principalities and powers as Christians, there is no doubting that, unless one is in the process of falling away/drawing back/apostatizing..........(I will not argue about eternal security here)....please

We "wrestle with" but they "the ministering spirits (angels)", WAR against the same entities........they also use the Word of God to war against them I'm sure.

It seems possible that the two events converge, the "falling away" and the "standing aside" occur together, and the restraining is a joint effort by those who are ministers of God at any level including the Holy Ghost.

[lambslave]

shorttribber, thank you for a thoughtful reply. When Jesus shows John and us the seven churches in Rev 2-3, we find there the definition of apostacy, and are next shown what worship is founded on in 4-5 (God is creator, God is redeemer). Then unfolds from 6-on the necessary action the Lord will take to bring us to Him.

[watching]

Hello everyone,

I would just like to offer my thoughts on this subject.

In order to understand WHO or WHAT is holding, i.e. the restrainer, you have to look at the text in the original Greek, in order to fully understand it, due to a possible mistranslation, or maybe I should say a number of mistranslations in some of the verses, but I will only talk about the mistranslations that have led to the misunderstanding concerning the “restrainer” in this post.

But first, the other thing that needs to be understood first of all is that 2 Thessalonians 2 does not say anything about the anti-Christ/the man of sin being restrained, or evil being restrained.

If anything is being restrained, or “held back,” it is the day of Christ, because that is what the Thessalonians were anxious about in the first place. See verses 1 and 2.

2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Then in verse 3 Paul tells them/us to not be deceived (that the day of Christ is at hand) if two things do not happen first.

Here are the next two verses.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

First of all it is important to note here that “that day shall not come” is not in the original text. It was added in by the translators, in an attempt to finish the sentence, because without that clause, the sentence seems to be incomplete.

So, the scripture does not actually say that “that day shall not come” if these things do not happen first. But it does say to not be deceived into believing that that day has come, if these two things do not happen first. (This is for the pre-trib crowd. )

So what are the two things that have to happen first?

Well, let’s look at verse 3 again:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, as you can see, the two things, that if they do not happen first, that we should not be deceived into believing that the day of Christ is at hand, are:

1) A falling away
2) And that man of sin [might] be revealed

Also, please note that I have added in the word [might]. The reason I did that is because the word “revealed” in the Greek in this verse is in the subjunctive mood.

You may verify this here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#conc/3

Btw, the Greek word, which was translated, in the KJV, as “falling away” is the Greek word “apostasia” which means “defection” or “revolt.”

See definition here:

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/646.htm

So the apostasy that is being referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2 is either ……….

A) a defection from the truth, or
B) an outright revolt or rebellion.

As for me, I am more inclined to believe that it is referring to the latter, B) an outright revolt or rebellion, because a falling away from the truth has already been occurring for some time; and, therefore, does not have a defining moment.

However, the………..

1) falling away
2) and that the man of sin be revealed

…………are two PIVITOL events that must occur, so they must have a defining moment.

Now here are the next three verses:

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

So, here (in verse 6), Paul is telling us that NOW WE KNOW what withholdeth (τὸ κατέχον – neutral) that HE might be revealed in his time.

Now, one thing that should be noted about this verse is that although this time the word “revealed” was translated in the KJV as if it were in the subjunctive mood, the truth of the matter is, that, this time, the word “revealed” in the Greek, is, in fact, NOT in the subjunctive mood in the original text.

So this verse would, actually, more correctly translate as follows:

And now you know what is holding unto the revealing of him in his own time.

See translation here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#conc/6

So the THING that is holding in verse 6 (τὸ κατέχον) is holding UNTIL correction: UNTO the revealing of him in his own time.

The text does not say that the thing that is holding (τὸ κατέχον), is holding THE REVEALING of him in his own time, but rather that the thing that is holding (τὸ κατέχον), is holding (simultaneously) UNTO the revealing of him in his own time.

So the “revealing” is not hinged on the thing that is holding, because if the “revealing of him in his own time” were to be hinged on the thing that is holding, then the action of the “revealing” would, most likely, have been written in the subjunctive mood, just as it was MISTRANSLATED by the KJV.

But that is not the case, because this time the word “revealing” in the original text is no longer in the subjunctive mood.

So, the thing that is holding (τὸ κατέχον), is not holding the REVEALING of him in his own time, but rather it is holding (simultaneously) UNTO the revealing of him in his own time.

So, what were the two things that Paul said, that if they do not happen first, to not be deceived into believing that the day of Christ is at hand........the second of which was the revealing of the man of sin?

Well, let’s look at verse 3 again:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, based on verse 3, the first thing that is holding is the apostasy (the falling away).

And in the second part, the one who is holding, simultaneously with the apostasy, is that the man of sin [might] be revealed.

And, now, in verse 6, Paul is saying, and NOW YOU KNOW “what” is holding (τὸ κατέχον), UNTO the revealing of him in his own time.

How would we NOW KNOW, if Paul didn't just tell us?

So, it has to be something that Paul just revealed to us.

So the THING that is holding, along side of the revealing of the man of sin, and is, therefore, holding UNTO the revealing of him in his own time, is the APOSTASY (FALLING AWAY), because that is what was stated in verse 3.

Here is verse 3 again:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, the “apostasy” is the first part of what is holding.

Now for the second part that is holding (the revealing of the man of sin), we need to look at verse 7.

However, there appears to be a mistranslation in verse 7, which may be part of the reason for some of the confusion that exists today.

So, let’s take a look at verse 7.

First here is verse 7 in the King James Version:

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Please note, Paul is once again referring to two things (a “what” and a “he”).

The “what” is the “mystery of iniquity.”

It is the mystery of iniquity that leads to the apostasy/falling away, and it is already at work.

And the “he” is the “he who now letteth” or the ONE WHO IS HOLDING (ὁ κατέχων).

Now the rest of the verse is where the mistranslation may have occurred.

So let’s look and see how this verse was written in the Greek.

2:7 τὸ γὰρ μυστήριον ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται τῆς ἀνομίας μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται

Now here is the translation:

τὸ (the) γὰρ (for) μυστήριον (mystery) ἤδη (is already) ἐνεργεῖται (at work) τῆς (of) ἀνομίας (iniquity) μόνον (only) ὁ (the one) κατέχων (who is holding) ἄρτι (now) ἕως (until) ἐκ (out) μέσου (of the middle) γένηται (he becomes)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#conc/7

And here is just the English:

For the mystery is already at work of iniquity only the one who is holding now until out of the middle he becomes

So, as you can see, the Greek text does not say anything about anyone being “taken out of the way.”

Now what you need to understand about the word “becomes” (γένηται, in the Greek, which is a form of the root word γίνομαι ) is that in the Greek, the word γένηται, which means “becomes” is not restricted to something “becoming” something else.

In other words something or someone can just BECOME, i.e. come into existence.

In fact, that is the very first meaning of the word γίνομαι.

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

See definition here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1096&t=KJV

So let’s see how verse 7 reads again when translated literally:

For the mystery is already at work of iniquity only the one who is holding now until out of the middle he becomes

Now what were the two things that Paul said had to happen, that, if not, we should take care to not be deceived that the day of Christ is at hand?

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin [might] be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, Paul is consistently speaking of two things that are holding, a thing that is holding (τὸ κατέχον), and a person that is holding (ὁ κατέχων).

In verse 3 we have the falling away/apostasy (a THING that is holding) and that the man of sin might be revealed (the ONE who is holding).

Verse 6 focuses on the THING:

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

But, remember, we said this verse would more correctly translate as follows:

And now ye know what withholdeth unto the revealing of him in his own time

And verse 7 focuses on the ONE who is holding:

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

But, remember, we said this verse would more correctly translate as follows:

For the mystery is already at work of iniquity only the one who is holding now until out of the middle he becomes

So, the thing that is holding (τὸ κατέχον ) is the apostasy .

And the one who is holding (ὁ κατέχων) is that the man of sin might be revealed.

If these two things do not happen first, we should not be deceived into believing that the day of Christ is at hand.

So, the day of Christ is being held back until these two things happen.

Now here is the rest of 2 Thessalonians 2 starting from verse 7, but remember “until he be taken out of the way” should really be read as “until out of the middle he becomes.”

Also notice the Lord’s coming in verse 8.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

And now what I am going to do, just to see if this makes more sense, is that I am going to post all of 2 Thessalonians 2, except that I am going to make the changes that I believe were mistranslations, just to see if it makes more sense.

So here is a revised version of 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin might be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth unto the revealing of him in his own time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until out of the middle he becomes.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

[shorttribber]

I've heard this before also...not as thorough mind you....but that too is good exegesis of the text....best so far I think

[jgilberAZ]

I'm going to relay a story, and y'all can make of it what you will.

What do you'all make of this?

I think the man was demon possessed.

What are you intending to communicate with this little story??

We do wrestle against principalities and powers as Christians, there is no doubting that ...

[Tevye]

For the mystery is already at work of iniquity only the one who is holding now until out of the middle he becomes

Intriguing.

So it sounds like what you're saying is
when the rebellion happens
out of that rebellion or "falling away"
from in the middle or midst of the rebellion
the lawless one will be revealed.

The one is 'holding' himself back,
or being held back is waiting for the rebellion
that occurs at the proper time,
or the most opportune moment in time, the appointed time.

“I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath,
because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end...”
Daniel 8

Is humanity's natural course holding back the revealing of antichrist
and when they enter the appointed time of rebellion, then he will appear?
A natural set of events brought on by men who are compelled to rebel
according to what they believe will bring about the appearing of their messiah
or mahdi, will lead to the fruishion of that day the Thessalonians were looking for.
The day when Christ would be revealed and we who are in Christ
would be gathered to him.

If the lawless one is holding back of his own accord
waiting for the best moment to act and come out fo the closet
so to speak, that would make sense.
It seems to me that the man of lawlessness
could be holding back on his own accord
until the rebellion occours and then he will will step out and be revealed
yet, is not the enemy who will give him his power and dominion
only allowed to go so far in this world, so as to be held back by God's will?

“For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose
by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God’s words are fulfilled.”
Revelation 17:17

Is he being held back as God is in control of when that day will come
by His spiritual forces, or God's army of angels who restrain
an army led by the angel Michael.
Ultimately we know that God is in control of His creation
and allows or does not allow things to happen.
God has created His multitude of angels to do a work
in conjunction with His creation, the universe, the earth and humanity.
As is in the military, I imagine that God's army of angels
are commissioned to make things so or not so.

See the story here - passage link

In Daniel 12 there is a specific reference to Michael and the time of distress
a time frame of what will occur when those who are in the dust of the earth will arise.
Such a direct reference to the angelic general of heaven's armies in that time,
leads me to believe that Michael is the leader, or the one who is holding back lawlessness and
the revealing of the lawless one, that he is holding back until he is commanded to stand still. (amad)
( Amad. The Hebrew term amad means to “stand aside,” “stand still,” “desist,” or “be inactive.” )
As if he, Michael and his army, is preventing the rebellion until it's proper time.
A rebellion that will make way for the lawless one, antichrist, to appear out of the midst of it.

I'm wondering if we are seeing the early effects now
of Michael and his army standing still,
or stepping aside so as to allow the appointed time to begin.
Is the current rebellion sweeping the world, the begining of the fulfillment of prophecy?

[shorttribber]

that's good stuff Tevye

[benny balerio]

So I see there is absolutely no proof that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. Thank you for starting this thread, Benny.

But, there is proof that the restrainer is an angelic being, Michael the archangel in particular. The key is the entire language that Paul uses in II Thess. 2, not just one word taken out of context. II Thess. 1 tells us that the church endures persecution/tribulation until the glorious coming of Christ. At that time there is vengeance against all who persecuted the church previous to this glorious coming.

Moving into chapter 2, Paul states concerning the glorious coming just mentioned, and the gathering of the church to be with the LORD (previously mentioned in I Thess. 4-5 in conjunction with the Day of the LORD), that these events will not occur until certain events occur before them. Paul names two events, the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin. The revealing of the man of sin is further explained to be the specific revealing which occurs in conjunction with the abomination of desolation (he sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.) Yet even before this can happen there is another force (person) that is mentioned that is restraining the man of sin from being revealed. So far, though, we understand the events to occur in this order; First the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin, after that the coming of Christ and gathering of saints at the Day of the LORD.

The two key phrases that we should focus on are “the mystery of lawlessness” and “the revealing of the lawless one” mentioned in verses 7 and 8 respectively. I’m reading from ESV right now incidentally. This mystery of lawlessness is not clearly defined, but is clearly stated to already be at work. So the mystery of lawlessness is at work right now (as Paul writes and through our current time), but there is a restraining person (we must believe it is a person because it is a him) which is holding back this lawlessness from being more fully revealed. When that restraining person is out of the way, then the lawless one will be revealed and that revelation is clearly defined in verses 9-10. It is the demonic deception of the antichrist during the last half of Daniel’s 70th week after he has committed the abomination of desolation.

So let’s get this straight before moving further. The restrainer is at work now restraining the lawlessness from “getting more out of hand”. The lawlessness is currently working, but will reach an apex after the restrainer stops restraining. When the restrainer stops restraining, that leads directly into the abomination of desolation and the demonic deception which can be placed in the book of Revelation as describing the 42 months of the beast’s reign, see Revelation 13:5-18. Conclusion: the restraining person stops restraining at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week.

As a part of the Noahic Covenant, the LORD commanded that organized man enforce the law of retribution, see Genesis 9:6. Sinful man restrains evil by obeying the LORD’s edict in the Noahic Covenant. Governmental systems that jail, punish, or even kill people for murder are doing the will of God. This restrains evil.

However, it’s not quite that simple. Angelic forces back these governmental systems, or they stand against them when God ordains it. Daniel 10:12-14, 20, 11:1 prove quite helpful to us. Before turning to Daniel 12:1 to see Michael’s role, the aforementioned references show his role in restraining evil through the governmental systems that God had ordained. It had been previously revealed in Daniel 2 and 7 which empires would succeed the others. In Daniel 8 the defeat of the Medo-Persian Empire at the hands of the Greek Empire is foretold, AND THIS IS WHILE THE BABYLONIAN EMPIRE WAS STILL RULING!!! The angels (Gabriel and Michael) are in a special category of being able to strive with these governmental principalities and powers, Daniel 10:21, in a way that other angels cannot.

In two different locations, Michael the archangel has a role which can be placed at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, and it is specifically mentioned in conjunction with the governmental framework which shall arise after his role of restraining is fulfilled. Daniel 12:1 should be read against the backdrop of Daniel 10 since Daniel 10-12 is all one prophecy. Gabriel has revealed to us that he and Michael alone are allowed to contend with these governmental principalities and powers. At Daniel 12:1 it is stated that Michael has a charge over the people of Israel. After Michael “arises” or “stands up” (this Hebrew word contains the idea of to stand, to remain, to stand still, and to stop moving), it is here that the time of the great tribulation begins because Daniel 12:1 states that there will be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation (of Israel). This tells us that the abomination of desolation would have just occurred since Matthew places the great tribulation directly after this time, Matthew 24:15, 21. So Michael stands still, then the great tribulation begins. Michael stops restraining evil through the governmental systems, then the governmental system in place is allowed to be as lawless as it wants, not having to enforce the law of God, see Psalm 94:1-7 for the emotion of this time, then also Psalm 94:16-23 to read the resolution by the LORD.

The second place that we see Michael at work at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week is in Revelation 12:7-8. The original fall of Satan in Revelation 12:3-4 was at the beginning of time after the garden of Eden was planted by the LORD, see Ezekiel 28:11-19, so after the creation of man and woman. But in Revelation 12:7, we have a flash forward to after the Messiah has been caught up to the throne of God. The time markers of Revelation 12:6 and 14 places this just before the final three and one half years at the end of this age. The devil is cast out of heaven by Michael, but is allowed to give all of his authority to one system headed by one man which is completely unrestrained by Michael. So Michael, in his age long struggle with the devil, makes a move to shove him out of heaven, stepping aside from his role as protector over the nation of Israel. The devil is allowed to persecute Israel and the church in ways never before allowed during the great tribulation. This leads directly into the rise of the beast from the sea in Revelation 13. This is the end-times governmental framework which will be used by Satan and the antichrist to institute a system which is free from God’s law, or the mystery of lawlessness will have now been revealed at this point in time.

Many post-tribbers and even some pre-wrathers believe that the mystery which is finished at the seventh trumpet is the mystery of the church. I find this to be without basis. The church will have been raptured at the sixth seal before the wrath of God even begins to fall on mankind or the beast. Instead, this mystery which is finished at this time is finished in conjunction with the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of Christ, see Revelation 10:7, 11:15. At the time that the seventh angel sounds the seventh trumpet, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ thus ending the mystery of iniquity which has plagued us all these years. Now a truly righteous governmental framework can be established directly by the Messiah.

So to sum up, we must examine the additional phrases in II Thess. 2 beside just “the restrainer”. Studying the phrases “the mystery of lawlessness” and “the coming of the lawless one” will help to pinpoint the activity of the antichrist and the ceasing of the activity of the restrainer in conjunction with the coming antichrist. In two different places, Michael the archangel can be seen in his role at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, which leads directly into the great tribulation and the coming of the antichrist. These references are Daniel 12:1 and Revelation 12:7-8. In Daniel 10, Michael’s role in striving with governmental forces is outlined and stated that only he and Gabriel are allowed to contend there. Turning back to II Thess. 2 to finish we see a clear progression.

The restrainer stops restraining, 2:7. This is Michael whose actions at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week lead directly into the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, 2:3. The revealing of the man of sin includes a system of lawlessness, 2:7-8, the abomination of desolation, 2:4, and all types of demonic deception, 2:9-10.

After this, Christ appears at His glorious coming to gather the saints, 2:1, avenge the church, 1:6-8, and destroy the antichrist, 2:8.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

You Quote:
But, there is proof that the restrainer is an angelic being, Michael the archangel in particular. The key is the entire language that Paul uses in II Thess. 2, not just one word taken out of context. II Thess. 1 tells us that the church endures persecution/tribulation until the glorious coming of Christ. At that time there is vengeance against all who persecuted the church previous to this glorious coming.


My Reply:
2 Thessalonians 2:1
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
This statement by Paul was in referance to the Rapture of the Bride and not the physical return of our lord to reign at the end of the Great Tribulation.
The Bride will be raptured moments prior to the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath,...and the Bride will be kept out of it.(1 Thessalonians 1;10)
There are some here who will claim that the Bride will enter part or endure all the Day of the Lord,..But God says to those who makes this claim..."18Woe to you who long
for the day of the Lord!
Why do you long for the day of the Lord?
That day will be darkness, not light.
19It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.(Amos 5)

You Quote:
Moving into chapter 2, Paul states concerning the glorious coming just mentioned, and the gathering of the church to be with the LORD (previously mentioned in I Thess. 4-5 in conjunction with the Day of the LORD), that these events will not occur until certain events occur before them. Paul names two events, the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin. The revealing of the man of sin is further explained to be the specific revealing which occurs in conjunction with the abomination of desolation (he sits in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.) Yet even before this can happen there is another force (person) that is mentioned that is restraining the man of sin from being revealed. So far, though, we understand the events to occur in this order; First the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin, after that the coming of Christ and gathering of saints at the Day of the LORD.


My Reply:
The Apostasy is occuring today,...many who have not committed to Christ Jesus, but were thinking about it are falling away today.But once the Pre-trib rapture comes to pass and Daniels 70th week begins,....the opposite of "Falling Away" will begin."9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”(Revelation 7)
The Rapture occurs slightly prior to the beginning Day of the Lord,...not at the Day of the Lord...again the Lord says...what is that Day unto you?
If the Bride were present at the beginning of Daniels 70th week,...then we the Bride would know who the antichrist is,..when a covenant had been confirmed which this prophecy marks the beginning of Daniels 70th week,..thus one could call this the Revealing of the Man of sin.
But.....the Bride will not be present at that moment,..but the 144,000 ,...the two witnesses,..and the Great multitude will be present,..and these will know who the ac is prior to the A.O.D.

You quote:
The two key phrases that we should focus on are “the mystery of lawlessness” and “the revealing of the lawless one” mentioned in verses 7 and 8 respectively. I’m reading from ESV right now incidentally. This mystery of lawlessness is not clearly defined, but is clearly stated to already be at work. So the mystery of lawlessness is at work right now (as Paul writes and through our current time), but there is a restraining person (we must believe it is a person because it is a him) which is holding back this lawlessness from being more fully revealed. When that restraining person is out of the way, then the lawless one will be revealed and that revelation is clearly defined in verses 9-10. It is the demonic deception of the antichrist during the last half of Daniel’s 70th week after he has committed the abomination of desolation.


My Reply:
9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
The antichrist and false prophet cannot make one move until the Bride is gone,..otherwise he would have appeared on the world scene long ago.Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.
The Devils know that Jesus is Lord and they tremble!
The Gates of hell shall not prevail over the Church(Bride)
But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
When one comes to understand that the Age of Grace expires prior to Daniels 70th week once the pre-trib rapture occurs,..then they will realize the the holy Spirit is no longer indwelling those who were left behind.
The Holy Spirit is present in the world but He is not indwelling the believer, as He had been prior to daniels 70th week.
He has been taken out of the way,..but not out of the world.
Remember that the Holy Spirit was omnipresent in the Old Testament,....so do you not find it strange that the Lord would state that He must go,..or the Comforter would not come?
Today,.....under the age of Grace,...when a believer sincerely asks the Lord Jesus into his heart,..we are immediately sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption.
But in Daniels 70th week,...one is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise unto the day of redemption
The Holy Spirit indwells the Bride,..and will never cease to indwell the Bride.When the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way,..He takes the Bride with Him.


You Quote:
So let’s get this straight before moving further. The restrainer is at work now restraining the lawlessness from “getting more out of hand”. The lawlessness is currently working, but will reach an apex after the restrainer stops restraining. When the restrainer stops restraining, that leads directly into the abomination of desolation and the demonic deception which can be placed in the book of Revelation as describing the 42 months of the beast’s reign, see Revelation 13:5-18. Conclusion: the restraining person stops restraining at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week.


My Reply:
The following I agree with:
"So let’s get this straight before moving further. The restrainer is at work now restraining the lawlessness from “getting more out of hand”. The lawlessness is currently working, but will reach an apex after the restrainer stops restraining."
Your next statement,..you are painting the picture with different colors.
You state:
When the restrainer stops restraining, that leads directly into the abomination of desolation and the demonic deception which can be placed in the book of Revelation as describing the 42 months of the beast’s reign, see Revelation 13:5-18. Conclusion: the restraining person stops restraining at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week.
The Restrainer stops restraining slightly moments prior to the Beginning Day of the Lord,..which occurs before the 70th week of Daniel....it is the confirming of the covenant that Begins Daniels 70th week,..and we know that is the ac first act that reveals him to the left behind,..the two witnesses and the 144,000.
It is the A.O.D. that reveals the Ac to Israel(Israel will know that the ac wants to kill them, and will flee)

You Quote:
As a part of the Noahic Covenant, the LORD commanded that organized man enforce the law of retribution, see Genesis 9:6. Sinful man restrains evil by obeying the LORD’s edict in the Noahic Covenant. Governmental systems that jail, punish, or even kill people for murder are doing the will of God. This restrains evil.
However, it’s not quite that simple. Angelic forces back these governmental systems, or they stand against them when God ordains it. Daniel 10:12-14, 20, 11:1 prove quite helpful to us. Before turning to Daniel 12:1 to see Michael’s role, the aforementioned references show his role in restraining evil through the governmental systems that God had ordained. It had been previously revealed in Daniel 2 and 7 which empires would succeed the others. In Daniel 8 the defeat of the Medo-Persian Empire at the hands of the Greek Empire is foretold, AND THIS IS WHILE THE BABYLONIAN EMPIRE WAS STILL RULING!!! The angels (Gabriel and Michael) are in a special category of being able to strive with these governmental principalities and powers, Daniel 10:21, in a way that other angels cannot.[/color


My Reply:
Genesis 6:3, where God said,”My Spirit will not always strive with man.” This word comes from the Hebrew word which means to govern or rule, in whatever realm. One of the responsibilities of government is to restrain lawlessness, thus the Spirit of God is said to restrain lawlessness. Thus, as the Holy Spirit restrains lawlessnes in the world, the only one who has authority to remove that restraint is God. The Holy Spirit restrains sin in Christians (Rom 8:2 and others). The man of sin is literally the man of lawlessness, and will be the epitome of human lawlessness. Lawlessness that was already at work is being restrained until the ultimate expression of the lawlessness is revealed at the right time. God’s Holy Spirit has the function of restraining humanity’s lawlessness, and the AC is the ultimate expression of that lawlessness, it is apparently the Holy Spirit that prevents the AC from being revealed.

You Quote:
In two different locations, Michael the archangel has a role which can be placed at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, and it is specifically mentioned in conjunction with the governmental framework which shall arise after his role of restraining is fulfilled. Daniel 12:1 should be read against the backdrop of Daniel 10 since Daniel 10-12 is all one prophecy. Gabriel has revealed to us that he and Michael alone are allowed to contend with these governmental principalities and powers. [color=#FF8040]At Daniel 12:1 it is stated that Michael has a charge over the people of Israel. After Michael “arises” or “stands up” (this Hebrew word contains the idea of to stand, to remain, to stand still, and to stop moving), it is here that the time of the great tribulation begins because Daniel 12:1 states that there will be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation (of Israel). This tells us that the abomination of desolation would have just occurred since Matthew places the great tribulation directly after this time, Matthew 24:15, 21. So Michael stands still, then the great tribulation begins. Michael stops restraining evil through the governmental systems, then the governmental system in place is allowed to be as lawless as it wants, not having to enforce the law of God, see Psalm 94:1-7 for the emotion of this time, then also Psalm 94:16-23 to read the resolution by the LORD.

My Reply:
Daniel 12;1

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise



The restrainer restrains “lawlessness,” globally, while Michael restrains enemy attacks against one nation, Israel.

Michael cannot be everywhere globally to restrain evil,..only the Holy spirit can do this.

Notice that the verse states..."AT THAT TIME"...and it seems that you are saying that Michael at that time will cease to protect Israel,..but of course,..we know that at that time Israel will flee into the wilderness,..and be protected there for 1,260 days......So who do you think is protecting Israel.."AT that Time?"

Revelation 12;6

6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Revelation 12;14

14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach

The one who is taken out of the way is the Bride who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit,....not Michael the Archangel.

Notice that the verse says..Will arise/Take charge.....when?......."At that Time"

Nothing here states that Michael is taken out of the way.



You Quote:

The second place that we see Michael at work at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week is in Revelation 12:7-8. The original fall of Satan in Revelation 12:3-4 was at the beginning of time after the garden of Eden was planted by the LORD, see Ezekiel 28:11-19, so after the creation of man and woman. But in Revelation 12:7, we have a flash forward to after the Messiah has been caught up to the throne of God. The time markers of Revelation 12:6 and 14 places this just before the final three and one half years at the end of this age. The devil is cast out of heaven by Michael, but is allowed to give all of his authority to one system headed by one man which is completely unrestrained by Michael. So Michael, in his age long struggle with the devil, makes a move to shove him out of heaven, stepping aside from his role as protector over the nation of Israel. The devil is allowed to persecute Israel and the church in ways never before allowed during the great tribulation. This leads directly into the rise of the beast from the sea in Revelation 13. This is the end-times governmental framework which will be used by Satan and the antichrist to institute a system which is free from God’s law, or the mystery of lawlessness will have now been revealed at this point in time.

My Reply:

I do know that 2/3rds of Israel will die during Daniels 70th week.

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein (Zech. 13:8).

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God (Zech. 13:9).

We interpret the one-third as believing Israel of Romans 11:26; and the godly remnant that God supernaturally protects in a specially prepared hiding place (Isa. 26:20-21). We have a symbolic picture of Israel, the sun-clad woman, who brings forth the man child - Jesus Christ - who according to His humanity is of the seed of David and destined to rule all nations with a rod of iron.





You Quote:

Many post-tribbers and even some pre-wrathers believe that the mystery which is finished at the seventh trumpet is the mystery of the church. I find this to be without basis. The church will have been raptured at the sixth seal before the wrath of God even begins to fall on mankind or the beast. Instead, this mystery which is finished at this time is finished in conjunction with the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of Christ, see Revelation 10:7, 11:15. At the time that the seventh angel sounds the seventh trumpet, the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Christ thus ending the mystery of iniquity which has plagued us all these years. Now a truly righteous governmental framework can be established directly by the Messiah.



My Reply:

The Wrath of God begins slightly prior to the beginning of Daniels 70th week, and it continues throughout the whole 7 years of Daniels 70th week.

Isaiah tells us that in that day, not before the day, men will hide in holes of the rocks and caves.10 They are hiding from the terror of the LORD when He arises to shake the earth mightily. Their hiding is not anticipatory, but reactionary. In other words, the events of the sixth seal are part of the Day of the Lord.
Those with faith in Christ desire His presence and seek His face. (Ps. 17:15; Pr. 8:7; Isa. 45:19; Isa. 58:2; 65:1; Jer. 29:13; Amos 5:4).



You Quote:

So to sum up, we must examine the additional phrases in II Thess. 2 beside just “the restrainer”. Studying the phrases “the mystery of lawlessness” and “the coming of the lawless one” will help to pinpoint the activity of the antichrist and the ceasing of the activity of the restrainer in conjunction with the coming antichrist. In two different places, Michael the archangel can be seen in his role at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week, which leads directly into the great tribulation and the coming of the antichrist. These references are Daniel 12:1 and Revelation 12:7-8. In Daniel 10, Michael’s role in striving with governmental forces is outlined and stated that only he and Gabriel are allowed to contend there. Turning back to II Thess. 2 to finish we see a clear progression.

The restrainer stops restraining, 2:7. This is Michael whose actions at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week lead directly into the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, 2:3. The revealing of the man of sin includes a system of lawlessness, 2:7-8, the abomination of desolation, 2:4, and all types of demonic deception, 2:9-10.

After this, Christ appears at His glorious coming to gather the saints, 2:1, avenge the church, 1:6-8, and destroy the antichrist, 2:8.

My Reply:

This has already been refuted in my earlier replies.

And I add,....2Thess uses the neuter gender participle (WHAT restrains), as well as the masculine (he is taken), while the Greek word translated archangel in only in the masculine.

[lambslave]

OM, katexon is not masculine, it is neuter. So the holding fast is an experience, not a person. "But (de) now (noon) you know (from oida) the holding fast (neuter accusative substantive, not participle). The pronoun may be masculine, and that's what you are thinking about. lambslave

[benny balerio]

OM, katexon is not masculine, it is neuter. So the holding fast is an experience, not a person. "But (de) now (noon) you know (from oida) the holding fast (neuter accusative substantive, not participle). The pronoun may be masculine, and that's what you are thinking about. lambslave

I think you are looking for the word ..""katecho":
You mispelled it I think.......never mind...you did not mispell,...it's a matter of translation.

[lambslave]

katexo is the verb from which we get katexon.lambslave

[The Orange Mailman]

OM, you should take a look at what I claim is the proper translation of 2:7, "And now you know the holdiing fast ...." Paul says this, and uses this word (as he did in his last letter to them), BECAUSE it is the opposite of apostacy, and he is encouraging their action "of holding fast that which is true." Find the use of these two words as opposites expressing hold fast and fall away everytime they are used together in the same passage/argument, Luke 8, Hebrews 3. The word, ton katexon (neuter, acusative) does not point to a person or angel, but to the condition they Thessdalonians they are in doing the opposite of apostacy. In light of the above, and of the fact that he ends his discussion with "so then hold fast" we should turn twoard the simplest explanation that honors the definitions and the context. When the church stops holding fast, that is the apostacy, and the man of sin will have a field day. There is no Restrainor or angel to look for, just the filling of the Holy Spirit that will eable us to do the miraculous work of spreading the gospel of the lamb. We are the apostate church avoiding the stinging fact that we are the one (as Nathan said to David). Jesus warned us of aspostacy preceding the man of sin, but we don't accept the simplest explanation of this passage because we don't like the implications. Where is the salt and light? lambslave

Hello Lambslave-

I have just searched this entire thread and these are the only comments that I could come up with in relation to what you mention. Perhaps you could broaden your base just a little bit. You responded directly to me after I posted a lengthy study on the different terms that are used in II Thess. 2, but your response did not contain any consideration of my study. So when I responded, I pretty much did the same thing. So now you think I should reconsider your views and I think you should reconsider my views. So here goes, I will look over the above paragraph again, and I hope you will look over the study that I have posted here.

You should understand that I do not read Greek, I only read English. So some of what you say does not make sense to me. When I read "Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way," that is my basic understanding of the passage. I appreciate what Watching has posted and will continue to give it thought. I believe you have taken one word out of I Thessalonians and linked it with one word in II Thessalonians and built your case from there.

The idea of the apostasy being linked to the restraining force does not make sense to me. There are two different things that are stated to occur before the coming and gathering, the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness. The passage goes on to describe the mystery of lawlessness (vs. 7) and the revealing of the lawless one (vs. 8) which is a further explanation of the revealing of the man of lawlessness mentioned in verse 3. This restrainer is holding back and then when it is done holding back, the man of lawlessness is revealed, further extrapolating the mystery of lawlessness. So the links of the restrainer to the apostasy are weak since the thought flow of the passage does not more fully explain that theme, but the theme of the man of lawlessness being revealed.

I wonder, do you think the entire church will stop holding fast? I look forward to your further consideration of my study.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[lambslave]

OM You are a very good student of the Bible, that is obvious. And I do realize that my argument depends heavily on the language. As far as my research has gone I can only find someone in the second century that understood as I do what Paul was apparently saying. We must clear up the meaning of some words so that we are on the same page. Apostacy is the most important. Apostacy, falling away, is something that apparent believers do. They are in the faith then they fall away, act like unbelievers, do not produce fruit. Jesus speaks the parable of the seed and the soils. all about the difference between holding fast and apostacy, falling away. What many people do when they start to translate a difficult passage is take the word or passage over to their theology and see if the apparent meaning of the word "works." This is deadly to translation because it reverses the relationship betwewen the Word of God and theology, which we formulate FROM the Word of God. In the case before us many take apostacy to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints (also called Eternal Security) and decide apostacy can't be talking about loss of salvation and then re-define the word. This is called isegesis--to read a meaning into a text. Next we need to get on the same page regarding proper exegesis. I suggest here that you buy a copy of D.A. Carson's book, Exegetical Falacies. It is urgent that you do so. This book is required reading in any class on exegesis--leading forth the meaning of the passage. If what I have said here is followed, then it is much easier to understesand the passage. lambslave

[benny balerio]

OM You are a very good student of the Bible, that is obvious. And I do realize that my argument depends heavily on the language. As far as my research has gone I can only find someone in the second century that understood as I do what Paul was apparently saying. We must clear up the meaning of some words so that we are on the same page. Apostacy is the most important. Apostacy, falling away, is something that apparent believers do. They are in the faith then they fall away, act like unbelievers, do not produce fruit. Jesus speaks the parable of the seed and the soils. all about the difference between holding fast and apostacy, falling away. What many people do when they start to translate a difficult passage is take the word or passage over to their theology and see if the apparent meaning of the word "works." This is deadly to translation because it reverses the relationship betwewen the Word of God and theology, which we formulate FROM the Word of God. In the case before us many take apostacy to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints (also called Eternal Security) and decide apostacy can't be talking about loss of salvation and then re-define the word. This is called isegesis--to read a meaning into a text. Next we need to get on the same page regarding proper exegesis. I suggest here that you buy a copy of D.A. Carson's book, Exegetical Falacies. It is urgent that you do so. This book is required reading in any class on exegesis--leading forth the meaning of the passage. If what I have said here is followed, then it is much easier to understesand the passage. lambslave

You Quote:
Apostacy is the most important. Apostacy, falling away, is something that apparent believers do

My Reply:
That is a false statement.
What you are basicly claiming here is.......that a truely born again christian could lose their salvation,..that is a false statement.
Those who have fallen away are those who go to church and then when church is over..they go out and drink, fight and one never saw any change in them.
Anyone can claim to be a christian..but it does not mean that they were sincere when they came to the alter,...most likely them going to the alter was an emotional heat of the moment...there are people like that.
Matthew 13;
18“Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Not to throw a wrench in here- but one thing I can say concerning our adversary is that those who claim to receive messages from spiritual entities in other dimensions (channelers) have been ramping it up lately and clearly they expect some kind of rapture like event to occur that will give them the green light to proceed with the plan for the "new age". Now I am not advocating these "messages" as a source of truth, only a means to understand the enemy and his plans. If the enemy himself is expecting this event, why do we have such a hard time anticipating it? Scripture does support a pre- trib rapture, albeit a slightly different version than the prevailing thought(IMO) . You can argue in circles about the meanings of words, you claim this while another claims that, when the truth is words have various meanings. Each claims the meaning that backs up their particular view. If you interpret scripture based on the idea that the pre-trib rapture is false, then that becomes the foundation that you interpret by. If you interpret based on the idea that it is true, then that becomes your foundation. But in light of scripture as a whole- a pre-trib rapture view is completely consistent.

Now here is my challenge- to those of you who make the claim that Micheal acts as restrainer- please give me scriptural evidence- I have not so far seen such evidence provided. All I have seen is wrangling over the meaning of words. Show me how Micheal restrains lawlessness, not just a lawless entity- a singular being- but lawlessness as a whole. I don't want more wrangling over words- what I want is scriptural support. I agree that angelic beings have the ability to effect geopolitical events on earth. This is accomplished through struggle between warring parties- good vs. evil. That is scriptural- they fight one another. It is also accomplished by permission from God- who commissions angelic beings to accomplish His will. This can also be shown as true in scripture. But no single angelic being restrains lawlessness.

Ultimately there is only one real restrainer- God Himself- He is the ultimate restrainer- His word or law- is the antithesis of lawlessness- Like magnets repel each other- His word repels those who are in rebellion against His word. This is a scriptural concept, the truth is apposed to the lie, while the truth is readily available it has the power to diminish the progress of what is false. The restrainers removal is what allows the rebellion to flourish. The rebellion is against truth. That is the definition of Apostasy- a departure from truth, many are the hearers of that truth but few are they who actually live by it. The word of God is truth- Jesus is the word of God- and we are identified in scripture as being Christ- actually the embodiment of Christ- the word of God on earth. The light of the world- which by definition restrains darkness.

Ephesians 6:10-17
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14 Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

John 9:3-5
3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

Matthew 5:14-16
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Ephesians 5:6-13
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them;
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.
13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.

The light exposes the deeds of the dark, the righteousness of God exposes the deeds of the sons of disobedience. This acts as a restraint against the progress of lawlessness in the world, people's deeds are exposed, their guilt made evident in the righteous light of Christ. They are convicted and hopefully repent and get saved- this hinders the progress of lawlessness. This is doctrinal truth from scripture- no I cannot find a passage that clearly states that Jesus is the restrainer, that the word of God is the restrainer of lawlessness- but scripture all by itself makes the case pretty clearly IMO. When we as believers cloth ourselves with Christ- the armor of God- we have power to stand firm against evil forces, we have power to overcome evil. We effectively hinder the progress of lawlessness on earth.

Romans 12:21
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 John 2:13-14
13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

The word of God in us has caused us to overcome the evil one, as more and more children of disobedience come to know and trust Christ and the word of God abides in them- as long as the word of God is proclaimed- the progress of lawlessness is restrained!

RT

[benny balerio]

Not to throw a wrench in here- but one thing I can say concerning our adversary is that those who claim to receive messages from spiritual entities in other dimensions (channelers) have been ramping it up lately and clearly they expend some kind of rapture like event to occur that will give them the green light to proceed with the plan for the "new age". Now I am not advocating these "messages" as a source of truth, only a means to understand the enemy and his plans. If the enemy himself is expecting this event, why do we have such a hard time anticipating it? Scripture does support a pre- trib rapture, albeit a slightly different version than the prevailing thought(IMO) . You can argue in circles about the meanings of words, you claim this while another claims that, when the truth is words have various meanings. Each claims the meaning that backs up their particular view. If you interpret scripture based on the idea that the pre-trib rapture is false, then that becomes the foundation that you interpret by. If you interpret based on the idea that it is true, then that becomes your foundation. But in light of scripture as a whole- a pre-trib rapture view is completely consistent.

Now here is my challenge- to those of you who make the claim that Micheal acts as restrainer- please give me scriptural evidence- I have not so far seen such evidence provided. All I have seen is wrangling over the meaning of words. Show me how Micheal restrains lawlessness, not just a lawless entity- a singular being- but lawlessness as a whole. I don't want more wrangling over words- what I want is scriptural support. I agree that angelic beings have the ability to effect geopolitical events on earth. This is accomplished through struggle between warring parties- good vs. evil. That is scriptural- they fight one another. It is also accomplished by permission from God- who commissions angelic beings to accomplish His will. This can also be shown as true in scripture. But no single angelic being restrains lawlessness.

Ultimately there is only one real restrainer- God Himself- He is the ultimate restrainer- His word or law- is the antithesis of lawlessness- Like magnets repel each other- His word repels those who are in rebellion against His word. This is a scriptural concept, the truth is apposed to the lie, while the truth is readily available it has the power to diminish the progress of what is false. The restrainers removal is what allows the rebellion to flourish. The rebellion is against truth. That is the definition of Apostasy- a departure from truth, many are the hearers of that truth but few are they who actually live by it. The word of God is truth- Jesus is the word of God- and we are identified in scripture as being Christ- actually the embodiment of Christ- the word of God on earth. The light of the world- which by definition restrains darkness.

Ephesians 6:10-17
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
14 Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

John 9:3-5
3 Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
4 “We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

Matthew 5:14-16
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Ephesians 5:6-13
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them;
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.
13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.

The light exposes the deeds of the dark, the righteousness of God exposes the deeds of the sons of disobedience. This acts as a restraint against the progress of lawlessness in the world, people's deeds are exposed, their guilt made evident in the righteous light of Christ. They are convicted and hopefully repent and get saved- this hinders the progress of lawlessness. This is doctrinal truth from scripture- no I cannot find a passage that clearly states that Jesus is the restrainer, that the word of God is the restrainer of lawlessness- but scripture all by itself makes the case pretty clearly IMO. When we as believers cloth ourselves with Christ- the armor of God- we have power to stand firm against evil forces, we have power to overcome evil. We effectively hinder the progress of lawlessness on earth.

Romans 12:21
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 John 2:13-14
13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

The word of God in us has caused us to overcome the evil one, as more and more children of disobedience come to know and trust Christ and the word of God abides in them- as long as the word of God is proclaimed- the progress of lawlessness is restrained!

RT

There is no excuse why anyone should complain why they went home hungry after reading this from RT.

One verse that really stood out for me, was in John 9;5..."5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

Think about it!

[Resurrection Torchlight]

One verse that really stood out for me, was in John 9;5..."5 “While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

Think about it!

Exactly- "night is coming when no one can work"

and thank you

RT

[The Orange Mailman]

We must clear up the meaning of some words so that we are on the same page. Apostacy is the most important. Apostacy, falling away, is something that apparent believers do. They are in the faith then they fall away, act like unbelievers, do not produce fruit. Jesus speaks the parable of the seed and the soils. all about the difference between holding fast and apostacy, falling away. What many people do when they start to translate a difficult passage is take the word or passage over to their theology and see if the apparent meaning of the word "works." This is deadly to translation because it reverses the relationship betwewen the Word of God and theology, which we formulate FROM the Word of God.

Hello Lambslave-

This is very interesting. You state that apostasy is the most important. Yet you have a definition which may not match up with the usage of the word in the NT. It only occurs one other time. In Acts 21:21 it is the specific act of forsaking the law of Moses by the Israelites. This is also how it is used in I Macabbees 1 and 2 when the Israelites abandoned the holy covenant and embraced the gods of the Gentiles.

So if we are to formulate our view of the word apostasy directly from the scriptures, what view should we come up with?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[The Orange Mailman]

Hi Watching-

Your work is excellent and you definitely have an eye for detail. You have brought many things out from this passage that we have overlooked. I do want to point out a couple of things that I believe are not quite cut and dry.

So the THING that is holding in verse 6 (τὸ κατέχον) is holding UNTIL the revealing of him in his own time.

The text does not say that the thing that is holding (τὸ κατέχον), is holding THE REVEALING of him in his own time, but rather that the thing that is holding (τὸ κατέχον), is holding (simultaneously) UNTO the revealing of him in his own time.

So the “revealing” is not hinged on the thing that is holding, because if the “revealing of him in his own time” were to be hinged on the thing that is holding, then the action of the “revealing” would, most likely, have been written in the subjunctive mood, just as it was MISTRANSLATED by the KJV.

But that is not the case, because this time the word “revealing” in the original text is no longer in the subjunctive mood.

So, the thing that is holding (τὸ κατέχον), is not holding the REVEALING of him in his own time, but rather it is holding (simultaneously) UNTO the revealing of him in his own time.

I pointed out in my study the matter of the timing of these two pivotal events. Since the events lead into the time of the revealing of the man of sin in such a way that he commits the abomination of desolation and deceives through satanic power, this pinpoints the timing to be at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. That was my main foundational point. So the idea here that the restrainer functions until that point in time, not necessarily hinging, but simultaneously as you state. But those simultaneous events clearly occur at the midpoint. Since we know they occur at the midpoint, this will serve as a time marker for a male personage which is mentioned at the midpoint in two other scriptures, Daniel 12:1 and Revelation 12:7-8.

And, now, in verse 6, Paul is saying, and NOW YOU KNOW “what” is holding (τὸ κατέχον), UNTO the revealing of him in his own time.

How would we NOW KNOW, if Paul didn't just tell us?

So, it has to be something that Paul just revealed to us.

So the THING that is holding, along side of the revealing of the man of sin, and is, therefore, holding UNTO the revealing of him in his own time, is the APOSTASY (FALLING AWAY), because that is what was stated in verse 3.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you have read this into the passage. Another equally compelling view would be that Paul is referring to a teaching which he delivered in person when he taught in their presence. This would better fit the phrase which immediately precedes it in verse 5 "Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?" I notice that you skipped right from verse 3 to verse 6 without mentioning verse 5. So it is not that Paul has just mentioned the restrainer so they know. But Paul taught them about the restrainer when he was with them so they know. So the apostasy is not necessarily the best choice, especially since the theme of the apostasy is not continued throughout the rest of the passage.

So, the thing that is holding (τὸ κατέχον ) is the apostasy .

And the one who is holding (ὁ κατέχων) is that the man of sin might be revealed.

If these two things do not happen first, we should not be deceived into believing that the day of Christ is at hand.

So, the day of Christ is being held back until these two things happen.

I disagree that the restrainer is the apostasy, but I agree that the Day of Christ (which includes the coming and gathering) is held back until the two events of the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin (which revealing includes the events of verse 4 and 9-10).

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[The Orange Mailman]

Now here is my challenge- to those of you who make the claim that Micheal acts as restrainer- please give me scriptural evidence- I have not so far seen such evidence provided. All I have seen is wrangling over the meaning of words. Show me how Micheal restrains lawlessness, not just a lawless entity- a singular being- but lawlessness as a whole. I don't want more wrangling over words- what I want is scriptural support.

Hello Resurrection Torchlight. That sort of has a ring to it, doesn't it?

I remember a while ago I picked up an old Bible commentary, by Erdman's I think. This was dated back around 1940's or so. I turned to II Thess. 2 to see who they identified as the restrainer. The commentary was not dogmatic but mentioned two possibilities, either an angelic being or human government. I thought that was interesting. In my studies, I don't believe it's one or the other, I believe it's both.

I agree that angelic beings have the ability to effect geopolitical events on earth. This is accomplished through struggle between warring parties- good vs. evil. That is scriptural- they fight one another. It is also accomplished by permission from God- who commissions angelic beings to accomplish His will. This can also be shown as true in scripture. But no single angelic being restrains lawlessness.

I'm glad that you concede these things up front. This is what makes me think I might be able to prove my case with you. Time and space contrict me from doing justice to this theme. But you have to understand the Noahic Covenant and it's relation to the other covenants. I'll sum up, but you being a student of the Word should hear the ring of truth in this.

After the fall, there was the seed promise in Genesis 3:15. This played out over the years as mankind, as one people, grew more wicked. God destroyed the earth, creating a new earth and a new order for mankind, see II Peter 3:5-6. After the destruction of the old earth, God instituted the Noahic Covenant. This consisted of several things. The animals would begin to fear man. Animals were now considered food for man. God would not destroy the earth with water again. But the question would spring up, "how would God prevent the earth from becoming that wicked again?"

The progressive covenant plan of God revealed that man, sinful man, would now have the responsibility of restraining evil by punishing evil. Blood would be required if blood is shed. The Covenant at Sinai is not the first mention of retribution for evil against another human, the first mention is in Genesis 9:6. Man was created in the image of God and therefore man has the responsibility to shed that man's blood if he desecrates the image of God.

Now here's the part that is not explicity spelled out in God's covenant with Noah, but it is obviously in His plan. Mankind was supposed to spread out across the earth to inhabit the entire earth. They were supposed to develop into different nations, peoples, tribes, with different languages. That's why the story of the tower of Babel is so important. This group thought they would defy God and not be scattered into different nations. God had other plans. Each nation would be responsible for enforcing the Noahic Covenant, punishment of murder. When one nation or empire would fail, God would use another people group to defeat them and administer justice. That's what the defeat of the seven Canaanite nations by Israel was all about. The iniquity of the Amorites was not yet complete (Gen. 15:16), but when it became complete, then God would bring Israel into the land. When the Israelites failed, not just the Mosaic Covenant, but the Noahic covenant as well, they were defeated by the Babylonian Empire.

So, if you agree that government was instituted by God to restrain evil, see Romans 13:3-4, you are quite a bit into my way of seeing this issue. Then if you believe that angelic beings effect the governmental structures, which are designed to restrain evil, then you are even closer. So when examining Daniel 10, the idea is that the change in empires had just occurred (it being only the third year of Cyrus). Cyrus was God's shepherd over Jerusalem (see Isaiah 44:28) allowing the Israelites to return from exile. Here are Gabriel and Michael seen striving in heavenly places to shape the geopolitical structure which restrains evil.

The strongest link though, (in my humble opinion), is that at the mention of Michael in both references there is a consequence which leads into a lawless system resulting in persecution of Israel and the saints. The mystery of lawlessness is already at work. My view fits. The lawless one will be revealed when the restrainer is out of the way. According to Daniel 7:25 (time, times, and half a time = 3 1/2 years), my view fits. Sin will no longer be restrained by human government once the man of lawlessness is revealed. My view fits. I would encourage you to read Psalm 94 as it contains the ideas that will unfold as the throne of iniquity is revealed at the time of the end.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[The Orange Mailman]

Thank you, Orange, for sharing your hours and hours of research to help us learn about our beautiful Lord.

God's Student-

You are welcome. Thanks for the encouragement.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[watching]

Hi Orange Mailman,

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you have read this into the passage. Another equally compelling view would be that Paul is referring to a teaching which he delivered in person when he taught in their presence. This would better fit the phrase which immediately precedes it in verse 5 "Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?"

What teaching are you referring to?

But Paul taught them about the restrainer when he was with them so they know. So the apostasy is not necessarily the best choice, especially since the theme of the apostasy is not continued throughout the rest of the passage.

Again, I don’t know what teaching you are referring to. But in any case I think there is some confusion about what is being restrained.

The only thing I see as being restrained in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto Him.

This was the concern that Paul was addressing, when he said to not be deceived into believing that the day of Christ has come, unless two things happen first.

So, I don’t see why this would be my opinion.

I disagree that the restrainer is the apostasy,………..

I’m not suggesting that the restrainer is the apostasy.

I’m suggesting that the restrainer is the apostasy AND that the man of sin might be revealed.

but I agree that the Day of Christ (which includes the coming and gathering) is held back until the two events of the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin (which revealing includes the events of verse 4 and 9-10).

If the day of Christ is what is being held back, then what else would be holding it back, besides the two things that Paul mentioned?

[Resurrection Torchlight]

So, if you agree that government was instituted by God to restrain evil, see Romans 13:3-4, you are quite a bit into my way of seeing this issue. Then if you believe that angelic beings effect the governmental structures, which are designed to restrain evil, then you are even closer. So when examining Daniel 10, the idea is that the change in empires had just occurred (it being only the third year of Cyrus). Cyrus was God's shepherd over Jerusalem (see Isaiah 44:28) allowing the Israelites to return from exile. Here are Gabriel and Michael seen striving in heavenly places to shape the geopolitical structure which restrains evil.

The strongest link though, (in my humble opinion), is that at the mention of Michael in both references there is a consequence which leads into a lawless system resulting in persecution of Israel and the saints. The mystery of lawlessness is already at work. My view fits. The lawless one will be revealed when the restrainer is out of the way. According to Daniel 7:25 (time, times, and half a time = 3 1/2 years), my view fits. Sin will no longer be restrained by human government once the man of lawlessness is revealed. My view fits. I would encourage you to read Psalm 94 as it contains the ideas that will unfold as the throne of iniquity is revealed at the time of the end.

Romans 13:1-2
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

Yes I agree that God gives authority to people in positions of power, to accomplish His will, for us and for the world, and yes I agree that angelic beings are involved in positioning these powers again to accomplish the will of God. But you only prove my point- It is God who rules over all authority and if one opposes the governing authorities then they are ultimately opposing the law or word of God. The Father has given His authority to His Son:

Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Colossians 1:16-18
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

1 Peter 3:21-22
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

So let me ask you- if Jesus has all authority, and we are His physical and spiritual body on earth, don't you think that Christ in us has the power to restrain lawlessness? I mean we're talking Jesus here, we are His body, we accomplish His will on earth. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit- will you deny the power we as believers have as the light of the world?

You claim that Michael restrains lawlessness because he has the ability to fight against angelic beings who have control over geopolitical regions or nations. But Michael is not omnipresent, he cannot fight against all the forces of wickedness at once can he? In fact the passage in Daniel shows that sometimes the forces of wickedness restrain the forces of good. Gabriel could not come to Daniel because the prince of Persia withstood him, it wasn't until Micheal came that the two of them together overcame him, and neither does Micheal have charge over all governments around the world. And governments are not the only source God uses to restrain lawlessness, governments themselves only restrain in their own geopolitical area, and often they do not do so very successfully as they themselves are corrupted and wicked. Yet the Lord gives them authority to accomplish His will. Just as He gives authority to evil entities to accomplish His will, He sends the strong delusion, He gives authority to the beast, He allows the angel to open the abyss, He grants authority to the two witnesses, He grants authority to the ten kings and so on.... God restrains through His creation, but we are special among that creation because we have Jesus Christ in us and we are in Him. There is no greater power on earth or in heaven than the power of God to restrain evil, and we have that power in His word that lives in us by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 17:20
20 And He said to them, “Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Jesus says that even a little faith can move mountains, and that even small faith as tiny as a mustard seed can give us power to do impossible things. Jesus said this to His disciples before the Holy Spirit was sent- imagine how much more power they will have when empowered by the Holy Spirit- wait, we don't have to imagine, scripture tells us; they had power to cast out demons, to heal the sick, to speak in foreign tongues, they moved mountains so to speak and the faith spread across the known world. The light overcame darkness with speed and zeal not known on earth before. That is why believers are of the day- we are the light, that is why the sons of disobedience are of the night- they are darkness. Night is coming when no one (of the day) can work. Night cannot come if the daylight is still here. When do you think the night comes? There will be no light and you cannot successfully argue against the fact that light- restrains darkness. All you have to do is go turn on a light in a dark room.

Jesus said while He is in the world he is the light of the world- we are Him, His body, we in this age of grace act as restrainer against darkness. When the light is removed- darkness takes its place, it is no longer restrained by the light. The sons of darkness of disobedience of rebellion of apostasy will move forward unhindered in order to fulfill God's prophetic timeline of events.

RT

[watching]

Hi Orange Mailman,

I just want to clarify one more thing.

This does not, in any way, affect my hope in a pretrib rapture. But, then again, I only see the tribulation as being 3 1/2 years. (At least this is the only time frame, or general time frame, we are certain about. Whether, or not, it might be in combination with two or more time frames, I do not know. But I do know that there remains, at least 3 1/2 years and/or 42 months and/or 1,260 days that are yet to be fulfilled. Whether, these are all the same time frame, or not, however, I do not know for certain.)

In any case, the point that I would like to make, once again, is that the statement "that day shall not come" is actually not written in the original text.

So, to me, that means that it seems quite possible that it could all transpire within the same day. (By "all" I am referring to the apostasy/rebellion, the revealing of the man of sin, and, consequently, the Lord's coming.)

But, JUST TO BE CLEAR, I do not know whether all of the above will transpire within the same day, or not. I am only saying that it seems quite possible, to me, based on the wording, at least from what I am understanding.

Another thing that I would like to be clear about is that, as I said before, I am more inclined to see the apostasy as being an outright revolt or rebellion, rather than just a falling away from the truth. Because, as I said before, a falling away from the truth does not appear to have a defining moment, since that has already been occurring over time.

If anything, the falling away from the truth, might be better described as the mystery of iniquity, which is already at work, or at least a part of it, anyway.

The falling away/mystery of iniquity, which is already at work, will, however, eventually lead to the apostasy (revolt or rebellion), which, in turn, will lead to the revealing of the man of sin.

So, I guess in a way, you could say that it is the apostasy (revolt, rebellion) that is "what" is holding, because that is what will lead to the revealing of the man of sin. So it is holding unto the revealing of the man of sin. But, at the same time, it is not the revolt/rebellion that will cause the man of sin to be revealed, because Paul tells us that he will be revealed in his own time.

So, when his own time comes, the rebellion will occur, which will lead to his appearing.

So, the man of sin is not being held back. The scripture tells us that the mystery of iniquity is already at work. But, when it has reached it's climax in the form of the apostasy (revolt, rebellion), then, at that time, the man of sin will be revealed. But, once again, the man of sin will not be revealed, inadvertently, as a result of the rebellion. Because Paul makes it clear, that he will be revealed in his own time.

Here are Paul's words in verse 6, once again.

"And now ye know what withholdeth unto the revealing of him in his own time."

Then in verse 7, Paul says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until out of the middle he becomes.

So, in both cases, the man of sin is being revealed in his own time. But, yet, the two go hand in hand. The rebellion is what will, consequently, lead to his revealing.

So, in verse 6, Paul is explaining "what" is holding.

And in verse 7, Paul is explaining the "he" who is holding.

But both (a "what" and a "he") are what is holding, which is probably the reason why Paul broke it down in verses 6 and 7. Because he didn't want to just call it a "what" because that might have led to some confusion, since it is two things that are holding. And, by the same token, he didn't want to just call it a "he" because that might have led to some confusion, as well. So, he reiterated, once again, that it is both a "what" and a "he" that is holding. And, at the same time made it clear, that those two things go hand in hand. One does not depend on the other; but, rather, they both occur, more or less, congruently and "in his own time."

At least that is what I am understanding from the text.

[benny balerio]

So, if you agree that government was instituted by God to restrain evil, see Romans 13:3-4, you are quite a bit into my way of seeing this issue. Then if you believe that angelic beings effect the governmental structures, which are designed to restrain evil, then you are even closer. So when examining Daniel 10, the idea is that the change in empires had just occurred (it being only the third year of Cyrus). Cyrus was God's shepherd over Jerusalem (see Isaiah 44:28) allowing the Israelites to return from exile. Here are Gabriel and Michael seen striving in heavenly places to shape the geopolitical structure which restrains evil.

The strongest link though, (in my humble opinion), is that at the mention of Michael in both references there is a consequence which leads into a lawless system resulting in persecution of Israel and the saints. The mystery of lawlessness is already at work. My view fits. The lawless one will be revealed when the restrainer is out of the way. According to Daniel 7:25 (time, times, and half a time = 3 1/2 years), my view fits. Sin will no longer be restrained by human government once the man of lawlessness is revealed. My view fits. I would encourage you to read Psalm 94 as it contains the ideas that will unfold as the throne of iniquity is revealed at the time of the end.

Romans 13:1-2
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

Yes I agree that God gives authority to people in positions of power, to accomplish His will, for us and for the world, and yes I agree that angelic beings are involved in positioning these powers again to accomplish the will of God. But you only prove my point- It is God who rules over all authority and if one opposes the governing authorities then they are ultimately opposing the law or word of God. The Father has given His authority to His Son:

Matthew 28:18
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Colossians 1:16-18
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

1 Peter 3:21-22
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

So let me ask you- if Jesus has all authority, and we are His physical and spiritual body on earth, don't you think that Christ in us has the power to restrain lawlessness? I mean we're talking Jesus here, we are His body, we accomplish His will on earth. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit- will you deny the power we as believers have as the light of the world?

You claim that Michael restrains lawlessness because he has the ability to fight against angelic beings who have control over geopolitical regions or nations. But Michael is not omnipresent, he cannot fight against all the forces of wickedness at once can he? In fact the passage in Daniel shows that sometimes the forces of wickedness restrain the forces of good. Gabriel could not come to Daniel because the prince of Persia withstood him, it wasn't until Micheal came that the two of them together overcame him, and neither does Micheal have charge over all governments around the world. And governments are not the only source God uses to restrain lawlessness, governments themselves only restrain in their own geopolitical area, and often they do not do so very successfully as they themselves are corrupted and wicked. Yet the Lord gives them authority to accomplish His will. Just as He gives authority to evil entities to accomplish His will, He sends the strong delusion, He gives authority to the beast, He allows the angel to open the abyss, He grants authority to the two witnesses, He grants authority to the ten kings and so on.... God restrains through His creation, but we are special among that creation because we have Jesus Christ in us and we are in Him. There is no greater power on earth or in heaven than the power of God to restrain evil, and we have that power in His word that lives in us by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 17:20
20 And He said to them, “Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Jesus says that even a little faith can move mountains, and that even small faith as tiny as a mustard seed can give us power to do impossible things. Jesus said this to His disciples before the Holy Spirit was sent- imagine how much more power they will have when empowered by the Holy Spirit- wait, we don't have to imagine, scripture tells us; they had power to cast out demons, to heal the sick, to speak in foreign tongues, they moved mountains so to speak and the faith spread across the known world. The light overcame darkness with speed and zeal not known on earth before. That is why believers are of the day- we are the light, that is why the sons of disobedience are of the night- they are darkness. Night is coming when no one (of the day) can work. Night cannot come if the daylight is still here. When do you think the night comes? There will be no light and you cannot successfully argue against the fact that light- restrains darkness. All you have to do is go turn on a light in a dark room.

Jesus said while He is in the world he is the light of the world- we are Him, His body, we in this age of grace act as restrainer against darkness. When the light is removed- darkness takes its place, it is no longer restrained by the light. The sons of darkness of disobedience of rebellion of apostasy will move forward unhindered in order to fulfill God's prophetic timeline of events.

RT

Dinner has been served!...JESUS IS LORD!

[benny balerio]

Hi Orange Mailman,

I just want to clarify one more thing.

This does not, in any way, affect my hope in a pretrib rapture. But, then again, I only see the tribulation as being 3 1/2 years. (At least this is the only time frame, or general time frame, we are certain about. Whether, or not, it might be in combination with two or more time frames, I do not know. But I do know that there remains, at least 3 1/2 years and/or 42 months and/or 1,260 days that are yet to be fulfilled. Whether, these are all the same time frame, or not, however, I do not know for certain.)

In any case, the point that I would like to make, once again, is that the statement "that day shall not come" is actually not written in the original text.

So, to me, that means that it seems quite possible that it could all transpire within the same day. (By "all" I am referring to the apostasy/rebellion, the revealing of the man of sin, and, consequently, the Lord's coming.)

But, JUST TO BE CLEAR, I do not know whether all of the above will transpire within the same day, or not. I am only saying that it seems quite possible, to me, based on the wording, at least from what I am understanding.

Another thing that I would like to be clear about is that, as I said before, I am more inclined to see the apostasy as being an outright revolt or rebellion, rather than just a falling away from the truth. Because, as I said before, a falling away from the truth does not appear to have a defining moment, since that has already been occurring over time.

If anything, the falling away from the truth, might be better described as the mystery of iniquity, which is already at work, or at least a part of it, anyway.

The falling away/mystery of iniquity, which is already at work, will, however, eventually lead to the apostasy (revolt or rebellion), which, in turn, will lead to the revealing of the man of sin.

So, I guess in a way, you could say that it is the apostasy (revolt, rebellion) that is "what" is holding, because that is what will lead to the revealing of the man of sin. So it is holding unto the revealing of the man of sin. But, at the same time, it is not the revolt/rebellion that will cause the man of sin to be revealed, because Paul tells us that he will be revealed in his own time.

So, when his own time comes, the rebellion will occur, which will lead to his appearing.

So, the man of sin is not being held back. The scripture tells us that the mystery of iniquity is already at work. But, when it has reached it's climax in the form of the apostasy (revolt, rebellion), then, at that time, the man of sin will be revealed. But, once again, the man of sin will not be revealed, inadvertently, as a result of the rebellion. Because Paul makes it clear, that he will be revealed in his own time.

Here are Paul's words in verse 6, once again.

"And now ye know what withholdeth unto the revealing of him in his own time."

Then in verse 7, Paul says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until out of the middle he becomes.

So, in both cases, the man of sin is being revealed in his own time. But, yet, the two go hand in hand. The rebellion is what will, consequently, lead to his revealing.

So, in verse 6, Paul is explaining "what" is holding.

And in verse 7, Paul is explaining the "he" who is holding.

But both (a "what" and a "he") are what is holding, which is probably the reason why Paul broke it down in verses 6 and 7. Because he didn't want to just call it a "what" because that might have led to some confusion, since it is two things that are holding. And, by the same token, he didn't want to just call it a "he" because that might have led to some confusion, as well. So, he reiterated, once again, that it is both a "what" and a "he" that is holding. And, at the same time made it clear, that those two things go hand in hand. One does not depend on the other; but, rather, they both occur, more or less, congruently and "in his own time."

At least that is what I am understanding from the text.

The apostascy is already here and getting worse!
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=314661

Read the following:
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb.”

I would hardly call this a falling away!
Once the Bowl judgements begin,..it is too late to choose Jesus.

[The Orange Mailman]

Hey RT-

Yes I agree that God gives authority to people in positions of power, to accomplish His will, for us and for the world, and yes I agree that angelic beings are involved in positioning these powers again to accomplish the will of God. But you only prove my point- It is God who rules over all authority and if one opposes the governing authorities then they are ultimately opposing the law or word of God. The Father has given His authority to His Son:

Of course it is Christ who is above all and in all. He alone reigns supreme. But He has abdicated a great portion of His authority to manking and angelic beings. Sometimes they willingly serve Him, sometimes they serve Him even in their rebellion. Satan is actually doing the work of God as we speak. God will use his rebellion for His glory.

Your reasoning could lead to someome concluding that we do not have to submit to governmental authorities because Jesus alone rules. That would contradict scripture since Christ has ordained that we be subject to these rulers, even though they are sinful. God has established authority in three main areas. The family is probably the first authority structure in place. Wives must submit to husbands, children must submit to parents, but this is all under the direction of Christ. Second, governmental authorities must be obeyed. But when there is a choice to obey God or government, we obey God being willing to take the punishment that the government may serve us. Third, God has established overseers in the church. Submission to church leaders is clear in the scriptures, but again, this must occur under the direction of Christ as head of the church. Fourth, and sort of minor, is the submission of workers to their employers. But again, all underneath the reign of Christ.

So let me ask you- if Jesus has all authority, and we are His physical and spiritual body on earth, don't you think that Christ in us has the power to restrain lawlessness? I mean we're talking Jesus here, we are His body, we accomplish His will on earth. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit- will you deny the power we as believers have as the light of the world?

So really this is not an issue. Christ has willingly imparted His authority to men in power here on earth. He has the power to restrain lawlessness, but He has chosen to do it through governments. When one government becomes evil, He raises up another to conquer and take its place.

You claim that Michael restrains lawlessness because he has the ability to fight against angelic beings who have control over geopolitical regions or nations. But Michael is not omnipresent, he cannot fight against all the forces of wickedness at once can he?

Revelation 5:11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders ; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

No, I guess Michael can't be everywhere at once. The key thing to note is that Michael does not work alone, see Revelation 12:7. Michael has angels that operate under his authority, which of course has been granted to him by Christ. The idea in Daniel 10 is that there are certain struggles which are reserved for Micheal and Gabriel alone. The struggle to bring Daniel the final revelation to close his prophecy was of the highest importance. This prompted the principalites under the devil's influence to try to stop this. Michael had to step in to allow Gabriel to depart that struggle and give understanding to Daniel.

Jesus said while He is in the world he is the light of the world- we are Him, His body, we in this age of grace act as restrainer against darkness. When the light is removed- darkness takes its place, it is no longer restrained by the light. The sons of darkness of disobedience of rebellion of apostasy will move forward unhindered in order to fulfill God's prophetic timeline of events.

And I suppose that's an interesting view as well. It doesn't seem to be corroborated in Daniel and Revelation as the personage of Michael is, so it's not as appealing to me. I understand what you are saying, but government is what restrains lawlessness, and angels (thousands upon thousands of them) work in heavenly places to support these leaders, or tear them down and build afresh. Michael as the prince over Israel has a unique position which allows him to be referred to as a restrainer in place until the appointed time. Once Michael stands up, fights against the devil casting him down from the heavenly position he has to the earth, this will result in Michael ceasing to keep order which will allow a lawless system of government to prevail headed by a man of lawlessness.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[benny balerio]

Genesis 6:3, where God said,”My Spirit will not always strive with man.” This word comes from the Hebrew word which means to govern or rule, in whatever realm. One of the responsibilities of government is to restrain lawlessness, thus the Spirit of God is said to restrain lawlessness. Thus, as the Holy Spirit restrains lawlessnes in the world, the only one who has authority to remove that restraint is God. The Holy Spirit restrains sin in Christians (Rom 8:2 and others). The man of sin is literally the man of lawlessness, and will be the epitome of human lawlessness. Lawlessness that was already at work is being restrained until the ultimate expression of the lawlessness is revealed at the right time. God’s Holy Spirit has the function of restraining humanity’s lawlessness, and the AC is the ultimate expression of that lawlessness, it is apparently the Holy Spirit that prevents the AC from being revealed.

Daniel 12;1

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise



The restrainer restrains “lawlessness,” globally, while Michael restrains enemy attacks against one nation, Israel.

Michael cannot be everywhere globally to restrain evil,..only the Holy spirit can do this.

Notice that the verse states..."AT THAT TIME"...and it seems that you are saying that Michael at that time will cease to protect Israel,..but of course,..we know that "at that time" Israel will flee into the wilderness,..and be protected there for 1,260 days......So who do you think is protecting Israel.."AT that Time?"

Revelation 12;6

6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Revelation 12;14

14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach

The one who is taken out of the way is the Bride who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit,....not Michael the Archangel.

Notice that the verse says..Will arise/Take charge.....when?......."At that Time"

Nothing here states that Michael is taken out of the way.

You seem to refuse to acknowledge that it is that Holy spirit that is taken out of the way.
So who was it that was restraining evil prior to the Day of Pentecost?...the answer is that it was the Holy Spirit who is omnipresent.
So!......If the Holy Spirit is omnipresent,..then why did the Lord send the Comforter?...is not the Comforter the Holy Spirit? How can you send someone who is already omnipresent?
The reason the Lord sent the Comforter was that He would indwell believers.
The Holy Spirit will not indwell a man unless he sincerely asks and Believes Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
The Holy Spirit will "only" seal a "true" believer with the promise of redemption.(God does not break promises)
And the result of being sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise is..."SAVED BY GRACE"

But those who enter Daniels 70th week and come to Jesus During those days,...Their salvation is conditional,...they must endure unto the end, and the same shall be saved.These are saved by faith that must be evidenced by their works of faith,...meaning that these were not saved by grace,...that these were not sealed of the Holy Spirit of promise when they first believed.
The reason why is because the Comforter no longer functions the same way as He did during the Church age,..Fore He was taken out of the way,..and since it is that the Holy spirit Indwells believers in the Church age,...then they too were caught up!(Taken out of the way)
The Holy Spirit did not indwell believers prior to the Day of Pentecost,..and as we can see,..the Holy Spirit will not be indwelling those who are left behind when the Rapture occurs.

[The Orange Mailman]

Hi Watching-

You wrote:

How would we NOW KNOW, if Paul didn't just tell us?

So, it has to be something that Paul just revealed to us.

So the THING that is holding, along side of the revealing of the man of sin, and is, therefore, holding UNTO the revealing of him in his own time, is the APOSTASY (FALLING AWAY), because that is what was stated in verse 3.

Leading me to believe you pointed to the apostasy as restraining force or restrainer. But now you write:

I’m not suggesting that the restrainer is the apostasy.

I’m suggesting that the restrainer is the apostasy AND that the man of sin might be revealed.

What I am stating is that Paul taught in their presence what (who) the restrainer is, so there was no need to mention him in particular since they already knew. That's the whole point of verse 5 being positioned before verse 6. However, you state that Paul mentions the identity of the restrainer, just now revealing to them the identity of the restrainer in this letter. That makes verse 5 useless and out of context.

The "opinion" part of your post is what you stated concerning Paul identifying the restrainer here rather than the fact that he had already identified the restrainer in their presence and leaving it (him) unnamed here. The teaching is not available for us in II Thess. as Paul does not name the restrainer. Since Paul was teaching about the antichrist, the main passage in the OT which one would teach from concerning the antichrist would be the book of Daniel. So Paul states that they knew who the restrainer was, and redescribes to them the events of the revealing of the man of sin, mentioning that they know who the restrainer is (hint hint, book of Daniel). That's how I see it anyway, and I know that is just my opinion.

This does not, in any way, affect my hope in a pretrib rapture. But, then again, I only see the tribulation as being 3 1/2 years.

Sure, it's a side issue. The proof or lack of proof must be found elsewhere. But since II Thess. is a sequel to I Thess., there is a definite correlation between the two letters.

So, to me, that means that it seems quite possible that it could all transpire within the same day. (By "all" I am referring to the apostasy/rebellion, the revealing of the man of sin, and, consequently, the Lord's coming.)

But, JUST TO BE CLEAR, I do not know whether all of the above will transpire within the same day, or not. I am only saying that it seems quite possible, to me, based on the wording, at least from what I am understanding.

My view is that the revealing of the man of sin must include the extended events of verses 9-10. It's interesting that the "coming" of the man of sin is also described as a parousia, physical presence here on earth over an extended period of time as it is used in conjunction with the coming of the LORD Jesus. So there is an extended period of time during which the man of sin deceives Satanically through false miracles. This is located in the 42 months of Revelation 13:5. So it seems like Paul is stating that the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin occur (in their entirety), then the coming/gathering occur after that.

Another thing that I would like to be clear about is that, as I said before, I am more inclined to see the apostasy as being an outright revolt or rebellion, rather than just a falling away from the truth. Because, as I said before, a falling away from the truth does not appear to have a defining moment, since that has already been occurring over time.

I would agree. It seems that the revealing of the man of sin has a defining moment, and the apostasy should as well.

So, in verse 6, Paul is explaining "what" is holding.

And in verse 7, Paul is explaining the "he" who is holding.

But both (a "what" and a "he") are what is holding, which is probably the reason why Paul broke it down in verses 6 and 7. Because he didn't want to just call it a "what" because that might have led to some confusion, since it is two things that are holding. And, by the same token, he didn't want to just call it a "he" because that might have led to some confusion, as well. So, he reiterated, once again, that it is both a "what" and a "he" that is holding. And, at the same time made it clear, that those two things go hand in hand. One does not depend on the other; but, rather, they both occur, more or less, congruently and "in his own time."

Since Paul states this is "he", I believe we must believe it is "he", not just Paul using a different term to avoid confusion. What could be more confusing than calling an "it" a "he"? After "he" is out of the way, then the lawless one is revealed. The thought flow of verse 7 to 8 seems clear. I really like ESV and would like your take on the rendition of verses 7-8. Here it is:

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

Any thoughts?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[lambslave]

OM your post on the 27th at 4 or so said--(in part)
"The church will have been raptured at the sixth seal before the wrath of God even begins to fall on mankind or the beast." Would you mind sharing with me what the evidence is for making this statement. If its really a big deal, don't bother. I should look for a post where this is already explained. lambslave

[benny balerio]

OM your post on the 27th at 4 or so said--(in part)
"The church will have been raptured at the sixth seal before the wrath of God even begins to fall on mankind or the beast." Would you mind sharing with me what the evidence is for making this statement. If its really a big deal, don't bother. I should look for a post where this is already explained. lambslave

Dear Lambslave,...the rapture would have to occur just slightly prior to the Russian/Islamic attempted invasion against Israel,......or it may occur even before Israel is dwelling carelessly in peace.Ezekiel 38;11-14.....in other words...any time now!

I believe that seals 1 through 6 occur together in a matter of minutes/hours?
About the sixth seal......I believe is broken up into segments.
Revelation 6:12
I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red.

The only place in the bible that matches the scripture is Joel 2;31The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
(The day of the Lord is the First Half and......The Great and dreadful Day of the Lord Begins at the A.O.D. in which the Lord Jesus distinguishes it from the first half by calling it The Great Tribulation.)

I believe that the Day of the Lord begins with......." and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

This Invasion of Russia and The outter ring of islamic nation is what activates the Day of the Lord,..and the beginning result is Ezekiel 38;18 through 20

I believe that the 144,000 are sealed sometimes after the Ezekiel 38 war but not past day 1 of the 7 year covenant.
The work of the 144,000 would cover most if not all of Daniels 70th week,..as would seals 1 through 5.

When the Ezekiel 38 war comes to pass,..I believe that the antichrist will step forward already having a crown on his head,...in position to confirm the covenant from Day 1........which common sense dictates that a negotiation had been in process days earlier.
There is obviously a gap between the Ezekiel 38 war and the Day 1 confirmation........But I would not venture to say that the gap is weeks,..but most likely only days.

[watching]

Hi Watching-

You wrote:

How would we NOW KNOW, if Paul didn't just tell us?

So, it has to be something that Paul just revealed to us.

So the THING that is holding, along side of the revealing of the man of sin, and is, therefore, holding UNTO the revealing of him in his own time, is the APOSTASY (FALLING AWAY), because that is what was stated in verse 3.

Leading me to believe you pointed to the apostasy as restraining force or restrainer. But now you write:

Hi Orange Mailman,

I have not changed my view. I still believe that the THING that is holding is the apostasy.

However, at the same time, I believe that the HE who is holding is that the man of sin might be revealed.

So, the "restraining force" is both a THING and a HE, because the restraining force is a combination of two things.

Paul mentioned those two "restraining forces" in verse 3, by saying to not be deceived by anyone telling you, either by spirit, or by word, or even by a letter as supposedly from us (Paul and company), that the day of Christ is at hand, if not two things happen first. And those two things are the "apostasy" and "that the man of sin might be revealed."

So, it sounds, to me, as though these are the two restraining forces, because once they occur, then, at that point, the Lord will surely come. So, there will be no doubt regarding the Lord's coming, at that point.

However, if anyone tries to tell you that the Lord has come, prior to those two things happening, then you should not be deceived by believing them.

What I am stating is that Paul taught in their presence what (who) the restrainer is, so there was no need to mention him in particular since they already knew. That's the whole point of verse 5 being positioned before verse 6. However, you state that Paul mentions the identity of the restrainer, just now revealing to them the identity of the restrainer in this letter. That makes verse 5 useless and out of context.

What Paul is stating, in verse 5, is that, what he is NOW telling the Thessalonians, in writing, is the same thing as, what he had told them, previously, in person.

So, Paul is, basically, asking, "Don't you remember that I had been telling you these things, when I was still with you?"

So, the reason Paul is saying, "And now you know what withholdeth..........."

............is because he is NOW telling them AGAIN, in case they have forgotten.........or since they, obviously, HAVE forgotten.

If Paul had already revealed the identity of the restrainer in prior conversations, but was NOT revealing it to them NOW, then he would not have said, "AND NOW YOU KNOW............"

He most likely would have said something to the effect of:

"Don't you remember that I had been telling you these things when I was still with you?"

"So, you should already know what withholdeth."

. Since Paul was teaching about the antichrist, the main passage in the OT which one would teach from concerning the antichrist would be the book of Daniel. So Paul states that they knew who the restrainer was, and redescribes to them the events of the revealing of the man of sin, mentioning that they know who the restrainer is (hint hint, book of Daniel).

I still think there is some confusion about what is being "restrained."

I do not see any indication in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the man of sin is being "restrained."

On the contrary, how can one reveal oneself, IN THEIR OWN TIME, if they are being restrained???

That does not make any sense, and would, in fact, be an oxymoron.

As I have already stated before, the scripture in the original Greek, does not actually say what the King James Version has, erroneously, translated for verse 6.

Here is how the King James translated verse 6:

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

As I said before, this is a mistranslation by the King James, because the Greek word for "revealing" was not written in the subjunctive mood. You can verify the tense here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#conc/6 Or here: http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?search=A%29POKALUFQH%3DNAI

In fact, stating it the way the King James has translated this verse, is an OXYMORON; and is NOT how this verse was originally written in the Greek text.

To say.............

"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

.............DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE!!!!

HOW CAN SOMEONE BE REVEALED IN THEIR OWN TIME.....IF THEY ARE BEING RESTRAINED....THAT THEY MIGHT BE REVEALED IN THEIR OWN TIME?????



Edit:

Here is how I think verse 6 should have been translated:

First here is the Greek:

2:6 καὶ νῦν τὸ κατέχον οἴδατε εἰς τὸ ἀποκαλυφθῆναι αὐτὸν ἐν τῷ ἑαυτοῦ καιρῷ

καὶ (and) νῦν (now)τὸ (the) κατέχον (thing that is holding) οἴδατε (you have seen/have become aware of/have come to know) εἰς (unto) τὸ (the) ἀποκαλυφθῆναι (to be revealed) αὐτὸν (him) ἐν (in) τῷ (the) ἑαυτοῦ (his own) καιρῷ (time)

Now here is just the English:

And now the thing that is holding you know (have seen/have become aware of/have come to know) unto the to be revealed him in the his own time

And here is how I think this should read, so that it makes sense in the English:

And now you know what is holding unto the revealing of him in his own time

You may verify the translation here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=9&t=KJV#conc/6

End edit.

My view is that the revealing of the man of sin must include the extended events of verses 9-10. It's interesting that the "coming" of the man of sin is also described as a parousia, physical presence here on earth over an extended period of time as it is used in conjunction with the coming of the LORD Jesus. So there is an extended period of time during which the man of sin deceives Satanically through false miracles. This is located in the 42 months of Revelation 13:5.

It only takes half a second for someone to be revealed. However, I do believe that the events of verses 9-10 will most likely be a factor at his revealing; and will most likely continue throughout the 42 months.

So it seems like Paul is stating that the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin occur (in their entirety), then the coming/gathering occur after that.

I'm really not sure what the exact sequence will be; because, as I have stated before, I am not opposed to a pretrib rapture. In fact, that is what I hope for.

All I do know, however, is that we should not be DECEIVED by anyone TELLING us that the day of Christ has come, if the two above things have not happened first.

Besides that, we will not need anyone to tell us when Christ has come. We will know for ourselves when Christ has come, because there will be no doubt.

So we should never be deceived by someone trying to TELL us that Christ has come.

I think that is the main point that Paul is trying to make, when he tells the Thessalonians to not be deceived.

As a matter of fact, this is also what the Lord had warned us about, as well.

Matthew 24:23-27

King James Version (KJV)

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Since Paul states this is "he", I believe we must believe it is "he", not just Paul using a different term to avoid confusion. What could be more confusing than calling an "it" a "he"? After "he" is out of the way, then the lawless one is revealed. The thought flow of verse 7 to 8 seems clear.

I really do not understand what you are saying here.

I really like ESV and would like your take on the rendition of verses 7-8. Here it is:

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming

Since I have already discussed verse 7 in my initial post, I will just re-post what I had said about it earlier in this thread.

So, let’s take a look at verse 7.

First here is verse 7 in the King James Version:

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Please note, Paul is once again referring to two things (a “what” and a “he”).

The “what” is the “mystery of iniquity.”

It is the mystery of iniquity that leads to the apostasy/falling away, and it is already at work.

And the “he” is the “he who now letteth” or the ONE WHO IS HOLDING (ὁ κατέχων).

Now the rest of the verse is where the mistranslation may have occurred.

So let’s look and see how this verse was written in the Greek.

2:7 τὸ γὰρ μυστήριον ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται τῆς ἀνομίας μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται

Now here is the translation:

τὸ (the) γὰρ (for) μυστήριον (mystery) ἤδη (is already) ἐνεργεῖται (at work) τῆς (of) ἀνομίας (iniquity) μόνον (only) ὁ (the one) κατέχων (who is holding) ἄρτι (now) ἕως (until) ἐκ (out) μέσου (of the middle) γένηται (he becomes)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=1&t=KJV#conc/7

And here is just the English:

For the mystery is already at work of iniquity only the one who is holding now until out of the middle he becomes

So, as you can see, the Greek text does not say anything about anyone being “taken out of the way.”

Now what you need to understand about the word “becomes” (γένηται, in the Greek, which is a form of the root word γίνομαι ) is that in the Greek, the word γένηται, which means “becomes” is not restricted to something “becoming” something else.

In other words something or someone can just BECOME, i.e. come into existence.

In fact, that is the very first meaning of the word γίνομαι.

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

See definition here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1096&t=KJV


So let’s see how verse 7 reads again when translated literally:

For the mystery is already at work of iniquity only the one who is holding now until out of the middle he becomes

For the second part of your question:

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming

I don't think there is really any dispute about verse 8, but I will go ahead and translate it anyway.

First here is the Greek:

2:8 καὶ τότε ἀποκαλυφθήσεται ὁ ἄνομος ὃν ὁ κύριος ἀναλώσει τῷ πνεύματι τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ καὶ καταργήσει τῇ ἐπιφανείᾳ τῆς παρουσίας αὐτοῦ

Now here is a word for word translation:

καὶ (and) τότε (then) ἀποκαλυφθήσεται (will be revealed) ὁ (the) ἄνομος (the lawless one) ὃν (whom) ὁ (the) κύριος Lord ἀναλώσει (will consume) τῷ (the) πνεύματι (spirit) τοῦ (of the) στόματος (mouth) αὐτοῦ (of Him) καὶ (and) καταργήσει (will neutralize/render idle/terminate, etc.) τῇ (the) ἐπιφανείᾳ (appearance)τῆς (of) παρουσίας (coming/presence) αὐτοῦ (of Him)

Now here is just the English:

and then will be revealed the lawless one whom the Lord will consume the spirit of His mouth and will neutralize the appearance of the coming of Him

And here is how this would read so that it makes sense in the English:

and then will be revealed the lawless one whom the Lord will consume with the spirit of His mouth and will neutralize by the appearance of His coming

Edited for corrections and clarity.

[The Orange Mailman]

Hello Watching-

You have put some serious thought into your posts here and I will try to match your level of cognizance, although I may fall short. Please bear with me.

I have not changed my view. I still believe that the THING that is holding is the apostasy.

However, at the same time, I believe that the HE who is holding is that the man of sin might be revealed.

So, the "restraining force" is both a THING and a HE, because the restraining force is a combination of two things.

So the thing (in your view) is the apostasy, but the he is where I'm getting confused. Because later you write this:

I still think there is some confusion about what is being "restrained."

I do not see any indication in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the man of sin is being "restrained."

On the contrary, how can one reveal oneself, IN THEIR OWN TIME, if they are being restrained???

I'm trying not to make my posts enigmatic, but here I'm just not getting what you are writing. Who is the "he" in your view? You state that the "he" is that the man of sin might be revealed, but the man of sin isn't being restrained because "how can someone restrain themself?". So do you believe that the man of sin is the "he" being the restrainer?

If so, then I have some other questions which involve what I was looking ahead toward in my last post. I asked about the translation of verses 7-8. You provided individual translations, but my comment was concerning the thought flow between the two. Take a look again and notice the connecting phrase kai tote. This shows the relationship between the two verses. So I'm not at all certain of your assertion that there is not evidence that it is not the man of sin being restrained. You wrote:

I still think there is some confusion about what is being "restrained."

I do not see any indication in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the man of sin is being "restrained."

But look again at the two verses taken together, as the phrase which joins them clearly shows that they were mean to be taken together.

7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then (and then at that time) the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

So here is my reasoning in response to your reasoning. Since the man of sin can't restrain himself, and since when the restrainer is out of the way, then at that time, hinged upon that restrainer being out of the way (following ESV and I think the rendition falls in line with your points), then the man of sin is revealed, so we conclude that we see a male personage which had been restraining up until that point in time. That is where I feel that my view of Michael has greater persuasiveness and a broader scriptural base to draw from. That may sound pompous, but that's the way I see it. You may have a valid point about verse 6, but the relationship between verses 7 and 8 should be considered as a further explanation of verse 6 (gar translated "for" leads from 6 into 7).

What Paul is stating, in verse 5, is that, what he is NOW telling the Thessalonians, in writing, is the same thing as, what he had told them, previously, in person.

So, Paul is, basically, asking, "Don't you remember that I had been telling you these things, when I was still with you?"

So, the reason Paul is saying, "And now you know what withholdeth..........."

............is because he is NOW telling them AGAIN, in case they have forgotten.........or since they, obviously, HAVE forgotten.

If Paul had already revealed the identity of the restrainer in prior conversations, but was NOT revealing it to them NOW, then he would not have said, "AND NOW YOU KNOW............"

He most likely would have said something to the effect of:

"Don't you remember that I had been telling you these things when I was still with you?"

"So, you should already know what withholdeth."

ESV translates this passage "And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time." So some translators are placing the word nun (which means at this present time) along with an action which occurs at this present time. That seems like it would make more sense to me, but I don't read Greek so I defer to other translators like yourself and the reputable folks who translated the ESV. What do you think? Is the action that is occurring at this present time the knowledge that the Thessalonians possessed, or is it the restraining work in conjunction with a later revealing of the man of sin?

All I do know, however, is that we should not be DECEIVED by anyone TELLING us that the day of Christ has come, if the two above things have not happened first.

Besides that, we will not need anyone to tell us when Christ has come. We will know for ourselves when Christ has come, because there will be no doubt.

So we should never be deceived by someone trying to TELL us that Christ has come.

I think that is the main point that Paul is trying to make, when he tells the Thessalonians to not be deceived.

As a matter of fact, this is also what the Lord had warned us about, as well.
Matthew 24:23-27

Amen!

The Orange Mailman wrote:Since Paul states this is "he", I believe we must believe it is "he", not just Paul using a different term to avoid confusion. What could be more confusing than calling an "it" a "he"? After "he" is out of the way, then the lawless one is revealed. The thought flow of verse 7 to 8 seems clear.

I really do not understand what you are saying here.

I was trying to respond to this:

Because he didn't want to just call it a "what" because that might have led to some confusion, since it is two things that are holding. And, by the same token, he didn't want to just call it a "he" because that might have led to some confusion, as well. So, he reiterated, once again, that it is both a "what" and a "he" that is holding.

... which really didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Here it seems you are trying to get into the mind of Paul and determine why he used both types of terms for the same thing. I'm not really hung up on this since in my mind, Michael is restraining evil through human government. That's both an it and a he, a force and a person. It also explains the revealing of the man of sin along with a system of lawlessness over which the man of sin will prevail, both a beast kingdom and a beast person. So I guess my comment was designed to get you to explain a little more about where you were coming from with your comment. Sorry for the confusion.

I have not changed my view. I still believe that the THING that is holding is the apostasy.

However, at the same time, I believe that the HE who is holding is that the man of sin might be revealed.

And I have not changed my view either. I believe an overall comprehensive view of this passage shows clearly that the restrainer is restraining the revealing of the man of sin. Perhaps each verse can be individually examined, but they have connecting phrases which shows they were meant to be taken together as a whole. So the person, Michael, is restraining through the governmental systems along with his thousands upon thousands of angels, until he is out of the way, which allows the man of lawlessness to operate in a completely lawless manner.

Thank you very much for the time and effort that you have put into your posts.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[watching]

Hi OM,

I never said that the man of sin is restraining himself.

I think there is still some confusion about what is being "restrained."

In fact, I don't even think "restrain" is the best word choice to define the word κατέχω, which basically means to hold, take possession of, detain, etc.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2722.htm

But in any case, let's try it your way:

And now you know (that Michael is) what is restraining (the revealing of the man of sin) so that he (the man of sin) may be revealed in his (the man of sins) own time.

Or

And now you know (that Michael is) what is restraining (the revealing of the man of sin) so that he (the man of sin) may be revealed in his (Michael's) own time.

************************************************************************************************************************************************

Now let's try it my way:

And now you know (that the apostasy/rebellion AND the revealing of the man of sin is) what is delaying (the return of the Lord) unto the revealing of him (the man of sin) in his (the man of sin's) own time.

[watching]

Above post edited for clarity.

[The Orange Mailman]

Hi Watching-

I never said that the man of sin is restraining himself.

I noticed that you never said that. I'm trying to get you to identify the male personage (unequivocally).

But in any case, let's try it your way:

And now you know (that Michael is) what is restraining (the revealing of the man of sin) so that he (the man of sin) may be revealed in his (the man of sins) own time.

Or

And now you know (that Michael is) what is restraining (the revealing of the man of sin) so that he (the man of sin) may be revealed in his (Michael's) own time.

But you have only inserted into the verse which does not show the male gender of the restrainer. So the point is lost unless you do this for verse 7, not just verse 6. So let's look at what it looks like for my view. I'm following ESV unless you can give me a clear reason why it is erroneous.

6 And you know what (government backed by angelic forces) is restraining him (man of lawlessness) now so that he (man of lawlessness) may be revealed (with demonic power) in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness (sinfulness through government) is already at work. Only he (Michael through government) who now restrains it (the lawlessness) will do so until he (Michael) is out of the way. 8 And then (at that time in conjunction with Michael being out of the way) the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

Now let's try it my way:

And now you know (that the apostasy/rebellion AND the revealing of the man of sin is) what is delaying (the return of the Lord) unto the revealing of him (the man of sin) in his (the man of sin's) own time.

But let's be uniform and try it your way for the rest of the passage as well.

6 And you know what (that the apostasy/rebellion AND the revealing of the man of sin is) is restraining him (the return of the Lord) now so that he (man of sin) may be revealed in his (man of sin's) time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he (the apostasy/rebellion AND the revealing of the man of sin is) who now restrains it (the return of the LORD???) will do so until he (the apostasy/rebellion AND the revealing of the man of sin is) is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

So what you are doing by identifying the restrainer as both the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin is creating some confusion as to exactly who the male personage is. Is it the man of sin in your view?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[watching]

Hi Orange Mailman,

But you have only inserted into the verse which does not show the male gender of the restrainer. So the point is lost unless you do this for verse 7, not just verse 6. So let's look at what it looks like for my view. I'm following ESV unless you can give me a clear reason why it is erroneous.

6 And you know what (government backed by angelic forces) is restraining him (man of lawlessness) now so that he (man of lawlessness) may be revealed (with demonic power) in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness (sinfulness through government) is already at work. Only he (Michael through government) who now restrains it (the lawlessness) will do so until he (Michael) is out of the way. 8 And then (at that time in conjunction with Michael being out of the way) the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

We know all that from what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 2?

But let's be uniform and try it your way for the rest of the passage as well.

6 And you know what (that the apostasy/rebellion AND the revealing of the man of sin is) is restraining him (the return of the Lord) now so that he (man of sin) may be revealed in his (man of sin's) time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he (the apostasy/rebellion AND the revealing of the man of sin is) who now restrains it (the return of the LORD???) will do so until he (the apostasy/rebellion AND the revealing of the man of sin is) is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

Sorry, it was my mistake for including both the "what" AND the "he" in verse 6.

However, if you remember, in my initial post, I had stated that in verse 6, Paul was focusing on the "WHAT."

And in verse 7, Paul was focusing on the "HE."

So let's try it my way now:

6And now you know (that the apostasy/revolt/rebellion is what) is delaying (the Lord's coming) unto the revealing of him (the man of sin) in his (the man of sin's) own time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he (the man of sin) who now is the one who is delaying (the Lord's coming) until out of the middle he (the man of sin) becomes i.e. comes into existence.

8And then shall the lawless one be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth and shall neutralize by the appearance of His coming.