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Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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by benny balerio on Fri Jun 24, 2011 10:53 am
by daffodyllady on Fri Jun 24, 2011 5:53 pm
by benny balerio on Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:41 pm
Hi Daddodyllady,daffodyllady wrote:Just because the Holy Spirit steps back out of the way for the antichrist to be revealed, does not mean He leaves the whole earth, taking the church with Him.
Question: If the Holy Spirit leaves the earth during the tribulation, then how do some people get converted during the tribulation? After all, no one can come to God, unless the Holy Spirit is at work.
The Holy Spirit was present during the Old Testament. He will be present in the earth as long as God is at work here, drawing men to Himself.
Therefore, whoever or whatever God uses to restrain the antichrist from showing himself until his appointed time, has nothing to do with the possibility of there being a rapture before the tribulation. Scripture does not tie those two concept together, so we should not either.
by tharkun on Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:24 pm
by lambslave on Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:51 pm
by benny balerio on Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:38 am
tharkun wrote:Please list the scripture references that refer to the Holy Spirit as a 'restrainer'. I don't want a lot of talk and explanation; I want a simple scripture reference. Thanks.
tharkun
by daffodyllady on Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:09 am
by benny balerio on Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:06 am
daffodyllady wrote:See? the bible doesn't SAY it. It takes a bunch of human reasoning to arrive at that conclusion.
by daffodyllady on Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:17 am
by benny balerio on Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:30 am
daffodyllady wrote:So, lets stick with that the Bible DOES say.
by lambslave on Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:02 pm
by Mrs. B on Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:33 pm
by benny balerio on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:12 am
lambslave wrote:bennie, Matthew, an apostel of the Lord Jesus, records the words of the Lord Jesus, in his gospel, the first book of the New Testament, Matt 24:29-30,
"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days...they (the angels) will gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of the SKY to the other...." lambslave
by lambslave on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:26 am
by benny balerio on Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:48 am
lambslave wrote:bennie, Mrs. B., There is certanly the Holy Spirit, given to us by God, who does marvelous things in us so that we might be conformed to the image of God. But nowhere in the Bible, is the Holy Spirit called the restrainer, or described as restraining.
In the 2 Thess 2:7 passage the word, tov katexon, awkawrdly means "the holding fast." The word is neuter so we would not be inclined to see the word as a person here. Some scholars when translating the word as a person, will make a note about the neuter. The word is as we would suspect, a substantive describing an action, holding fast. Paul had used the same word in 1 Thess 5:21 "hold fast to that which is true." The word is known to be used as the opposite of apostaacy, as we see here (Luke 8:13, here the word for apostacy is fall away, as opposed to hold fast, 15. and Hebrews 3:12ff). Paul had introduced his argument here with the word "apostacy" in verse 3, "for that day will not come until the apostacy comes." 'We know that the day of the Lord has not aarrived because that is marked by apostacy, but you are experiencing holding fast.' Please do a little searching before you attempt an answer. lambslave
by tharkun on Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:04 am
benny balerio wrote:We know that the holy spirit is omnipresent and was present before the creation of the world.
The old testament saints,..where worthy of heaven when they had lived and died in faith.Their works followed them.King David cried out that the Holy Spirit would not be taken from him when he had committed adultery.Under the Mosiac Law,....if you committed one sin,...then it was like committing them all.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The comforter is the Holy Spirit, but yet keep in mind that the Holy spirit is omnipresent.
This means that the Holy Spirit(Comforter)had a special task to do on earth!
And on the day of Pentecost,...The church age was born!
Each person who comes to the cross of calvary and ask's the Lord into their heart,...the Holy Spirit seals them with the promise.
And when the Comforter 's task is completed on this earth,(The Fullness of the Gentiles)...The Holy Spirit indwelt Bride which hinders the revealing of the son of perdition,....is taken out of the way.
This usage is that of God"s Spirit carrying someone away. We see this usage illustrated in Acts 8:39 where Philip, upon completion of the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch,...and the Holy Spirit indwells each believer,.and when He is taken out of the way...The Holy Spirit takes the Bride with Him.
The church age will be over,the bride caught up into the air to meet the Lord.
The Holy spirit is still omnipresent,...and those who were left behind will have one of the greatest incentives the world has ever wittnessed to come to Christ Jesus...THE RAPTURE!.
But things will revert back to the way it was before the church age had began on the day of Pentecost.
Dan. 12:1 does not say Michael is already actively defending Israel, but simply identifies Michael as the prince who stands guard over the sons of Daniel's people. But "at that time," that is, the time of Israel's greatest distress, he, Michael the prince, will "arise," i.e., to their defense. The "restrainer" in the 2 Thess. 2:6 passage is not described as defending or guarding a nation but suppressing so that, in reference to the "man of lawlessness, "in his time he may be revealed."
2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, strongly supports the pre-tribulation rapture. A thorough Scriptural study of the "Day of the Lord" reveals the Day to not simply to be the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week of Daniel, but the entire seven years of tribulation period and including Christ's Millennial rule on earth.This is proven in the Ezekiel 38 prophecy.
Michael the archangel is not omnipresent,..therefore cannot restrain all the evil in the world.
benny balerio wrote:So tell us,....where does the bible state that the rapture is post trib?....Do you get my point?
Or..where in the bible does it state "Trinity" or "Rapture".
benny balerio wrote:The Bride does not enter Daniels 70th week.(1 Thessalonians 1;10)
The 70th week is for Daniels people(The jewish race)Daniel 9;24
The Jewish race is observing the Mosiac law of travel in Matthew 24;20
"Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath"
In both the Old and New Testaments, the word elect means chosen. In Old testament times, the elect were God’s Chosen people, the Jews (Isaiah 45:4). During this age the Church is God’s elect (1 Peter 1:1), and after the Church is gone Tribulation believers will be His elect. (Matt. 24:22) In the Millennium, Israel will once again be called God’s elect (Isaiah 65:22)
To me, the most convincing reason why Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture statement is found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages, specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they will live for a thousand years during Christ' s Kingdom. Instead, of using El Al airlines, the Lord will use angelic carriers to transport His people back to their land. What is the support for this view? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the use of Old Testament citations in Matthew 24:31:
The Matthew passage is a rather simple summary of all that the prophets had to say about the second facet of Israel' s final restoration. Its purpose was to make clear that the world-wide regathering predicted by the prophets will be fulfilled only after the second coming.
First, because of Israel' s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews " into all the winds" (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or " toward all winds" (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad " as four winds of the heavens." . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.
Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, " from the ends of the earth" (Isa. 43:5-7). We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His " chosen" (vv. 10, 20).
. . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .
A great horn shall be blown (Is. 27:13)" and the exiled will be brought back by that signal. Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of Isaiah 27:13, " There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the dispersed to Zion."
It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a " great" trumpet.
Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1, 10) comes to rule and transform the world as an " ensign" (a banner), He will gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel " from the four corners of the earth." [18]
What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book.[19]
It is quite clear that since the church is not mentioned in Matthew 24, then verse 31 cannot be a reference to the rapture of the church. Instead, as one studies the context and Old Testament references that our Lord alludes to, it becomes quite clear that He speaks of an end time regathering of elect Israel in order to return them to the land for the Millennium. At Christ' s first coming he wept over Jerusalem and expressed His desire to gather Israel to Himself " the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling" (Matt. 23:37). At His second coming, elect Israel will look upon Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and say, " Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Ps. 118:26; Matt. 23:39).
Think about the following;...The Lord Jesus said;that we neither marry nor are we given in marriage in heaven and we will be like the angels!... ..ANGELS can travel at the speed of thought, fly here, fly there.What I am pointing out is we, the Bride, when we receive our immortal bodies will not need angels to catch us up to meet the Lord in the air! Only the Elect like Jews and trib saints who are still in their natural bodies will need angels to transport them.
by benny balerio on Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:10 am
tharkun wrote:benny balerio wrote:We know that the holy spirit is omnipresent and was present before the creation of the world.
The old testament saints,..where worthy of heaven when they had lived and died in faith.Their works followed them.King David cried out that the Holy Spirit would not be taken from him when he had committed adultery.Under the Mosiac Law,....if you committed one sin,...then it was like committing them all.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The comforter is the Holy Spirit, but yet keep in mind that the Holy spirit is omnipresent.
This means that the Holy Spirit(Comforter)had a special task to do on earth!
And on the day of Pentecost,...The church age was born!
Each person who comes to the cross of calvary and ask's the Lord into their heart,...the Holy Spirit seals them with the promise.
And when the Comforter 's task is completed on this earth,(The Fullness of the Gentiles)...The Holy Spirit indwelt Bride which hinders the revealing of the son of perdition,....is taken out of the way.
This usage is that of God"s Spirit carrying someone away. We see this usage illustrated in Acts 8:39 where Philip, upon completion of the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch,...and the Holy Spirit indwells each believer,.and when He is taken out of the way...The Holy Spirit takes the Bride with Him.
The church age will be over,the bride caught up into the air to meet the Lord.
The Holy spirit is still omnipresent,...and those who were left behind will have one of the greatest incentives the world has ever wittnessed to come to Christ Jesus...THE RAPTURE!.
But things will revert back to the way it was before the church age had began on the day of Pentecost.
Dan. 12:1 does not say Michael is already actively defending Israel, but simply identifies Michael as the prince who stands guard over the sons of Daniel's people. But "at that time," that is, the time of Israel's greatest distress, he, Michael the prince, will "arise," i.e., to their defense. The "restrainer" in the 2 Thess. 2:6 passage is not described as defending or guarding a nation but suppressing so that, in reference to the "man of lawlessness, "in his time he may be revealed."
2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, strongly supports the pre-tribulation rapture. A thorough Scriptural study of the "Day of the Lord" reveals the Day to not simply to be the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week of Daniel, but the entire seven years of tribulation period and including Christ's Millennial rule on earth.This is proven in the Ezekiel 38 prophecy.
Michael the archangel is not omnipresent,..therefore cannot restrain all the evil in the world.
Benny, having ignored my request and, in fact, done what I asked you NOT to do, do you have a SINGLE scripture reference showing that one of the roles of the Holy Spirit is to restrain evil in the world? I’m not even asking for a prophetic context, ANY scripture reference that shows the Holy Spirit restraining evil in the world.
The fact that you could not do this, despite the lengthy response, indicates that you do not have any scriptural basis for your belief. The basis for your belief is instead a commitment to a pre-trib rapture and an insistence on interpreting vague scriptures (which the II Thess. passage is) such that they agree with your pre-conceived belief.
You offer no evidence except for a re-statement of your pre-trib belief and therefore, your argument is circular; it is the basis for it’s own existence.
You attempt to disprove that Michael is the restrainer (although your attempt is faulty); but even if you could disprove Michael, it does not automatically make the Holy Spirit the restrainer. Your belief does not win by default.benny balerio wrote:So tell us,....where does the bible state that the rapture is post trib?....Do you get my point?
Or..where in the bible does it state "Trinity" or "Rapture".
This is nothing but misdirection and again reveals your lack of scriptural support. You created the OP with the statement that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer; therefore, it up to you to support your belief from scripture. If you want to debate a post-trib rapture, start a new thread. Attacking other arguments that you disagree with does not help your own.benny balerio wrote:The Bride does not enter Daniels 70th week.(1 Thessalonians 1;10)
The 70th week is for Daniels people(The jewish race)Daniel 9;24
The Jewish race is observing the Mosiac law of travel in Matthew 24;20
"Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath"
In both the Old and New Testaments, the word elect means chosen. In Old testament times, the elect were God’s Chosen people, the Jews (Isaiah 45:4). During this age the Church is God’s elect (1 Peter 1:1), and after the Church is gone Tribulation believers will be His elect. (Matt. 24:22) In the Millennium, Israel will once again be called God’s elect (Isaiah 65:22)
To me, the most convincing reason why Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture statement is found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages, specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they will live for a thousand years during Christ' s Kingdom. Instead, of using El Al airlines, the Lord will use angelic carriers to transport His people back to their land. What is the support for this view? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the use of Old Testament citations in Matthew 24:31:
The Matthew passage is a rather simple summary of all that the prophets had to say about the second facet of Israel' s final restoration. Its purpose was to make clear that the world-wide regathering predicted by the prophets will be fulfilled only after the second coming.
First, because of Israel' s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews " into all the winds" (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or " toward all winds" (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad " as four winds of the heavens." . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.
Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, " from the ends of the earth" (Isa. 43:5-7). We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His " chosen" (vv. 10, 20).
. . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .
A great horn shall be blown (Is. 27:13)" and the exiled will be brought back by that signal. Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of Isaiah 27:13, " There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the dispersed to Zion."
It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a " great" trumpet.
Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1, 10) comes to rule and transform the world as an " ensign" (a banner), He will gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel " from the four corners of the earth." [18]
What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book.[19]
It is quite clear that since the church is not mentioned in Matthew 24, then verse 31 cannot be a reference to the rapture of the church. Instead, as one studies the context and Old Testament references that our Lord alludes to, it becomes quite clear that He speaks of an end time regathering of elect Israel in order to return them to the land for the Millennium. At Christ' s first coming he wept over Jerusalem and expressed His desire to gather Israel to Himself " the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling" (Matt. 23:37). At His second coming, elect Israel will look upon Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and say, " Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Ps. 118:26; Matt. 23:39).
Think about the following;...The Lord Jesus said;that we neither marry nor are we given in marriage in heaven and we will be like the angels!... ..ANGELS can travel at the speed of thought, fly here, fly there.What I am pointing out is we, the Bride, when we receive our immortal bodies will not need angels to catch us up to meet the Lord in the air! Only the Elect like Jews and trib saints who are still in their natural bodies will need angels to transport them.
And again, a long diatribe merely re-stating a pre-trib belief based on pre-trib assumptions. But still not a single verse that supports the OP. Where is the reference that shows the Holy Spirit restraining evil in the world? Most people here are familiar with the pre-trib belief, so it is not necessary to try and explain the whole system in any one post. For one, few here are willing to tackle such ‘elephant hurling’ debate tactics and they do nothing to help you argument. It is much better to stick to one topic at a time. If you cannot uphold your belief without clear references in scripture and without diverting into other issues and appealing to the pre-trib view as a whole, then it reveals much about the status of your argument.
Now, I ask again, please provide ONE scriptural reference that shows that a role of the Holy Spirit is to restrain evil in the world.
tharkun
by shorttribber on Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:43 am
by tharkun on Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:56 am
benny balerio wrote:Dr. Gerald Stanton cites six reasons why this passage should be understood to refer to the Holy Spirit's restraining ministry through the church.
benny balerio wrote:(1) By mere elimination, the Holy Spirit must be the restrainer. All other possibilities fall short of meeting the requirements of one who is to hold in check the forces of evil until the manifestation of Antichrist. . . .
benny balerio wrote:(2) The Wicked One is a personality and his operations include the realm of the spiritual. The restrainer must likewise be a personality and of a spiritual order, to resist the wiles of the Devil and to hold Antichrist in check until the time of his revealing. . . .
(3) To achieve all that is to be accomplished, the restrainer must be a member of the Godhead. He must be stronger than the Man of Sin, and stronger than Satan. . . .
benny balerio wrote:
(4) This present age is in a particular sense the "dispensation of the Spirit," for He works in a way uncommon to other ages as an abiding Presence within the children of God. . . .
benny balerio wrote:(5) The work of the Spirit since His advent has included the restraint of evil. The Spirit is God's righteous Agent for the age, and there are many reasons to be grateful for His restraining hand upon this world's iniquity. None but the Lawful One could restrain this world's iniquity. . . .
benny balerio wrote:(6) It is not difficult to establish that although the Spirit was not resident on earth during Old Testament days, whatever restraint was exerted was by the Spirit. . . . (Isa. 59:19) . . . The wickedness of Noah's day and the fact that life went on as usual in blindness to impending destruction is used of the Spirit in vivid portrayal of careless and wicked men upon whom Tribulation judgment shall fall. . . .
benny balerio wrote:In light of this Scriptural parallel, it is exceedingly significant that in the days immediately preceding the destruction of the flood, the restraining work of the Spirit is emphasized.
http://www.according2prophecy.org/hsrap.html
benny balerio wrote:and again ...as a clue that the Bride is not present in revelation 13;9
"9He who has an ear, let him hear."
But in revelation 1-3..we see that the Bride and Holy Spirit is present prior to Daniels 70th week.
Notice that in revelation 1-3 that scriptures state the following:
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches"...but when we read into revelation 13;9...we see that...."what the Spirit says to the churches" has been omitted...this was not an accident, and reveals that the Bride is not present in Daniels 70th week.
benny balerio wrote:Again,...
The Bride does not enter Daniels 70th week.(1 Thessalonians 1;10)
benny balerio wrote:The 70th week is for Daniels people(The jewish race)Daniel 9;24
benny balerio wrote:The Jewish race is observing the Mosiac law of travel in Matthew 24;20
"Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath"
by tharkun on Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:02 am
benny balerio wrote: You Quote:
, having ignored my request and, in fact, done what I asked you NOT to do
My Reply:
Wa?...you think that this is burger king...hold the lettus and the pickles
Do you claim a rapture will occur in the future?
And if so,..what lead you to that conclusion?
by tharkun on Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:04 am
shorttribber wrote:Daniel 10
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that..... holdeth with me.... in these things, but Michael your prince.
Here's one that shows Michael "restrains/resists/holds back/stands against".
But....ya know, who cares........if it doesn't agree with preconceived opinions......just pretend it isn't there or means something other than what it plainly says.
by shorttribber on Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:11 am
..............understandby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:27 am
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
by Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:40 am
Benny, your attempts at misdirection only reveal the weakness of your argument. Do you have a scriptural refence that shows that a role of the Holy Spirit is to restrain evil in the word or not?
John 16:7-15
7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Daniel 10:13
13 “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
by benny balerio on Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:52 am
tharkun wrote:benny balerio wrote:Dr. Gerald Stanton cites six reasons why this passage should be understood to refer to the Holy Spirit's restraining ministry through the church.
Appeals to authorities are irrelevant. I don’t build my belief based on someone else’s opinion, I want to see a scripture that shows the Holy Spirit restraining evil in the world.benny balerio wrote:(1) By mere elimination, the Holy Spirit must be the restrainer. All other possibilities fall short of meeting the requirements of one who is to hold in check the forces of evil until the manifestation of Antichrist. . . .
This is evidence of who the restrainer is? What a joke! “I can’t think of any other answer, therefore, it must be the Holy Spirit and therefore pre-trib is right!” Poor logic and poor scholarship.benny balerio wrote:(2) The Wicked One is a personality and his operations include the realm of the spiritual. The restrainer must likewise be a personality and of a spiritual order, to resist the wiles of the Devil and to hold Antichrist in check until the time of his revealing. . . .
(3) To achieve all that is to be accomplished, the restrainer must be a member of the Godhead. He must be stronger than the Man of Sin, and stronger than Satan. . . .
Well which is it, is the HS restraining the AC or Satan? If He’s restraining Satan, He seems to be doing a pretty poor job of it, given the way the world is functioning these days. If He’s restraining the AC, then ‘spiritual realm’ argument is irrelevant and doesn’t help your OP.benny balerio wrote:
(4) This present age is in a particular sense the "dispensation of the Spirit," for He works in a way uncommon to other ages as an abiding Presence within the children of God. . . .
This is more misdirection and doesn’t add evidence that the HS is the restrainer. There is no ‘dispensation of the Spirit’ in scripture. People were saved in the OT that they are in the NT, by grace through faith. Now the HS has a permanent dwelling within us. How does that mean that he restrains evil in the world?benny balerio wrote:(5) The work of the Spirit since His advent has included the restraint of evil. The Spirit is God's righteous Agent for the age, and there are many reasons to be grateful for His restraining hand upon this world's iniquity. None but the Lawful One could restrain this world's iniquity. . . .
Wow, even your authorities argue the same way you do. Fruchtenburg makes a statement that a role of the HS is to restrain evil, and yet he offers NOT ONE scripture to back up this statement.benny balerio wrote:(6) It is not difficult to establish that although the Spirit was not resident on earth during Old Testament days, whatever restraint was exerted was by the Spirit. . . . (Isa. 59:19) . . . The wickedness of Noah's day and the fact that life went on as usual in blindness to impending destruction is used of the Spirit in vivid portrayal of careless and wicked men upon whom Tribulation judgment shall fall. . . .
If the HS is omnipresent, he is resident everywhere. The Isaiah passage speaks of the Spirit of the Lord driving away or defeating evil not merely restraining it. And the surrounding verses reveal that the power of His spirit is expressed through the Redeemed, Who is Christ; therefore, the Isaiah passage shows that ultimately it will be the Messiah who will destroy the wicked. Since that is not what the OP argued, it is not support for the OP.benny balerio wrote:In light of this Scriptural parallel, it is exceedingly significant that in the days immediately preceding the destruction of the flood, the restraining work of the Spirit is emphasized.
http://www.according2prophecy.org/hsrap.html
And another statement with no scripture supporting it. A hyperlink is not scriptural evidence, BTWbenny balerio wrote:and again ...as a clue that the Bride is not present in revelation 13;9
"9He who has an ear, let him hear."
But in revelation 1-3..we see that the Bride and Holy Spirit is present prior to Daniels 70th week.
Notice that in revelation 1-3 that scriptures state the following:
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches"...but when we read into revelation 13;9...we see that...."what the Spirit says to the churches" has been omitted...this was not an accident, and reveals that the Bride is not present in Daniels 70th week.
This is an argument from silence; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And other rapture views could point to reasons for why “what the Spirit says to the churches” is omitted and it be completely consistent with the rest of their view. Pre-trib is not true by default. And if this is the best scriptural argument it has, it is as weak as suspected.benny balerio wrote:Again,...
The Bride does not enter Daniels 70th week.(1 Thessalonians 1;10)
This scripture proves not being subject to wrath, it says nothing about the 70th week. This point assumes a pre-trib belief.benny balerio wrote:The 70th week is for Daniels people(The jewish race)Daniel 9;24
The 70th week is BECAUSE OF the Jewish people, that doesn’t mean that the events only include Israel. By that logic, I can argue that the rebellious gentile nations are not a part of the 70th week, because it is not for them.benny balerio wrote:The Jewish race is observing the Mosiac law of travel in Matthew 24;20
"Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath"
So? He was speaking to Jews and Jews that believed in Him as Messiah. How does this prove that the HS is the restrainer? More misdirection to deflect from lack of scriptural support.
To sum up, we have an appeal to authority, an argument from silence, more misdirection to other issues, and more repetition of the pre-trib belief based on pre-trib assumptions leading to more circular arguments. And still not ONE SINGLE VERSE showing that one of the Holy Spirit’s roles is to restrain evil in the world.
tharkun
.....God's Wrath begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20 which begins slightly prior to Daniels 70th week and continues thoughout Daniels 70th week.So actually it does prove pre-trib beyond a reasonable doubt.by shorttribber on Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:58 am
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:those of you who claim angels can do that, please site scripture as evidence.
Daniel 10:13
13 “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
This passage in fact shows that the Prince of Persia (an angelic being) restrained the angel speaking to Daniel until Micheal (an angelic being) came to help him. These are forces of good and evil, but not all lawlessness, nor all lawfulness. They fight against one another at least in the OT. The evil forces (lawless) withstand the righteous (lawful), and the righteous withstand the evil, this fighting apparently went both ways both had the ability to withstand the other, it wasn't until Micheal joined in the fight that the Prince of Persia was overcome.
shorttribber wrote:Daniel 10
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that..... holdeth with me.... in these things, but Michael your prince.
by tharkun on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:00 am
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
Well I am not benny but I am glad you agree that the restrainer restrains lawlessness in the world a feat no angelic being can accomplish.
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
But here is clear scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit restrains lawlessness (rebellion against the law)
John 16:7-15
7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
Who is the Holy Spirit sent to? Believers. It is through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers that the word of God is proclaimed on earth, to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. The Holy Spirit does this through believers.
those of you who claim angels can do that, please site scripture as evidence.
Daniel 10:13
13 “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
This passage in fact shows that the Prince of Persia (an angelic being) restrained the angel speaking to Daniel until Micheal (an angelic being) came to help him. These are forces of good and evil, but not all lawlessness, nor all lawfulness. They fight against one another at least in the OT. The evil forces withstand the righteous, and the righteous withstand the evil, this fighting apparently went both ways.
RT
by benny balerio on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:03 am
tharkun wrote:benny balerio wrote: You Quote:
, having ignored my request and, in fact, done what I asked you NOT to do
My Reply:
Wa?...you think that this is burger king...hold the lettus and the pickles
Do you claim a rapture will occur in the future?
And if so,..what lead you to that conclusion?
Benny, your attempts at misdirection only reveal the weakness of your argument. Do you have a scriptural refence that shows that a role of the Holy Spirit is to restrain evil in the word or not?
Glib responses and sarcastic smilies do not help your argument. We are not debating my views or my arguments, we are debating yours. My opinion on whether there is a rapture or not, or when it will occur are irrelevant to the debate that you started with the OP (you did post this in a debate forum, you know). I'm interested in debating the OP FROM the scriptures and not TO them.
So where is the scripture? If you don't have any, say so. But don't post something as fact and then not be able to back it up with scripture.
tharkun
by benny balerio on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:12 am
tharkun wrote:Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
Well I am not benny but I am glad you agree that the restrainer restrains lawlessness in the world a feat no angelic being can accomplish.
I’m not sure where I agreed “that the restrainer restrains lawlessness in the world a feat no angelic being can accomplish.” I am simply asking for scriptural support of the OP.Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
But here is clear scriptural evidence that the Holy Spirit restrains lawlessness (rebellion against the law)
John 16:7-15
7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
How does this show the Holy Spirit restraining evil in the world? I see conviction, leading to truth, revelation, but no restraining. Convicting and restraining are not synonymous.Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
Who is the Holy Spirit sent to? Believers. It is through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers that the word of God is proclaimed on earth, to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. The Holy Spirit does this through believers.
those of you who claim angels can do that, please site scripture as evidence.
No here has claimed that angels can do these things, so this is a strawman argument. What has been claimed is that the Holy Spirit is responsible for the RESTRAINT of evil; I still see no scriptural evidence of this.Daniel 10:13
13 “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
This passage in fact shows that the Prince of Persia (an angelic being) restrained the angel speaking to Daniel until Micheal (an angelic being) came to help him. These are forces of good and evil, but not all lawlessness, nor all lawfulness. They fight against one another at least in the OT. The evil forces withstand the righteous, and the righteous withstand the evil, this fighting apparently went both ways.
RT
There seems to be some confusion on who or what is being restrained here. Benny has claimed both Satan and the AC, now you claim all lawlessness. Which is it?
Let’s examine the scripture (II Thess. 2:7-8):
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Things to note:
1) The mystery of iniquity is already at work (therefore it is NOT being restrained).
2) When the Restrainer is removed, something will happen (the Holy Spirit is a spirit and omnipresent; therefore, ‘removal’ has no meaning if omnipresent means anything at all).
3) It is the AC who is revealed when the Restrainer is removed (not all wickedness)
Therefore,
1) There is no need for an omnipresent restrainer, when it is only a single entity being restrained.
2) There is scriptural evidence of angels single-handedly restraining other entities (Dan 10:13).
3) There is scriptural evidence that when Michael ‘stands up’ (literally ‘stands still’) that the time of trouble will fall upon Israel.
I find it interesting that pre-trib proponents of Holy Spirit restrainer will demand the omnipotent presence of the Holy Spirit in order to restrain evil; but then claim that the same omnipresent being can be removed from the earth (and still have people being saved?). There seems to be some confusion on the definition of ‘onmipresent’.
Thank you for the scripture reference, RT.
tharkun
by shorttribber on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:13 am
benny balerio wrote:Not sarcastic,..it is just plain funny
by benny balerio on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:17 am
shorttribber wrote:benny balerio wrote:Not sarcastic,..it is just plain funny
by shorttribber on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:20 am
benny balerio wrote:Obviously the meaning for sarcastic is not the same understanding between you and I.
by tharkun on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:36 am
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
Appeals to authorities are irrelevant. I don’t build my belief based on someone else’s opinion, I want to see a scripture that shows the Holy Spirit restraining evil in the world.
My Reply:
When I read,..I am guided by the Holy Spirit as to what is truth and what is not......So tell us,..how did you come to your conclusion?
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
This is evidence of who the restrainer is? What a joke! “I can’t think of any other answer, therefore, it must be the Holy Spirit and therefore pre-trib is right!” Poor logic and poor scholarship.
My Reply:
So tell us,..how did you conclude that Michael was the Restrainer?
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
Well which is it, is the HS restraining the AC or Satan? If He’s restraining Satan, He seems to be doing a pretty poor job of it, given the way the world is functioning these days. If He’s restraining the AC, then ‘spiritual realm’ argument is irrelevant and doesn’t help your OP.
My Reply:
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"
Be careful of how you address the Holy Spirit in your arrogance.
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
This is more misdirection and doesn’t add evidence that the HS is the restrainer. There is no ‘dispensation of the Spirit’ in scripture. People were saved in the OT that they are in the NT, by grace through faith. Now the HS has a permanent dwelling within us. How does that mean that he restrains evil in the world?
My Reply:
There is a difference on how one was saved in the old Testiment and how one is saved on this side of the pre-trib rapture.
In the O.T. times ..one was saved by evidence of their faith.......Today one is saved by Grace.
In O.T. times....the Holy Spirit was Omnipresent,..but did not indwell mankind.
Today,..the Holy Spirit indwells the Believer,..that the moment we believed ...we were sealed by the promise of the Holy Spirit.
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
Wow, even your authorities argue the same way you do. Fruchtenburg makes a statement that a role of the HS is to restrain evil, and yet he offers NOT ONE scripture to back up this statement.
My Reply:
Praise God for His Spirit!
It seems that you are blind and cannot see the works of the Holy Spirit in the past or present age.
Hitler(a pawn of satan) attempted to wipe out the Jewish race,..so that the prophecies of God could not come to pass,..hitler has been restrained,..but yet attempts to derail Gods plan.
Satan does not want one person to become saved,...But no one calls Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit.
Believe me,..satan is restrained by the Holy Spirit.
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
If the HS is omnipresent, he is resident everywhere. The Isaiah passage speaks of the Spirit of the Lord driving away or defeating evil not merely restraining it. And the surrounding verses reveal that the power of His spirit is expressed through the Redeemed, Who is Christ; therefore, the Isaiah passage shows that ultimately it will be the Messiah who will destroy the wicked. Since that is not what the OP argued, it is not support for the OP.
My Reply:
The Holy Spirit indwells the Believer today,..And Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world,...we are all conquerers through Christ Jesus.
Without Jesus,..you can do nothing of your own.
Only Jesus the Christ is worthy of the Honor and the Glory,..this is the reason why the 24 elders laid their crowns before the throne.
revelation 4;11
11“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
This is an argument from silence; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And other rapture views could point to reasons for why “what the Spirit says to the churches” is omitted and it be completely consistent with the rest of their view. Pre-trib is not true by default. And if this is the best scriptural argument it has, it is as weak as suspected.
My Reply:
Argument from silence?
Clue after clue leads to weight of evidence,.....suppose you present weight of evidence of your view.
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
This scripture proves not being subject to wrath, it says nothing about the 70th week. This point assumes a pre-trib belief.
My Reply:
Sure it does .....God's Wrath begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20 which begins slightly prior to Daniels 70th week and continues thoughout Daniels 70th week.So actually it does prove pre-trib beyond a reasonable doubt.
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
The 70th week is BECAUSE OF the Jewish people, that doesn’t mean that the events only include Israel. By that logic, I can argue that the rebellious gentile nations are not a part of the 70th week, because it is not for them.
My Reply:
You have not an arguement to back yourself up.
Romans 11;
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this isf my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may nowh receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Daniels 70th week is called ..The Time of Jacobs Trouble"..the scriptures did not mention...The "time of the Gentiles Trouble as identified with Daniels 70th week.
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
So? He was speaking to Jews and Jews that believed in Him as Messiah. How does this prove that the HS is the restrainer? More misdirection to deflect from lack of scriptural support.
To sum up, we have an appeal to authority, an argument from silence, more misdirection to other issues, and more repetition of the pre-trib belief based on pre-trib assumptions leading to more circular arguments. And still not ONE SINGLE VERSE showing that one of the Holy Spirit’s roles is to restrain evil in the world.
My Reply:
Well first of all,..my reply was revealing that the Bride was not present,..after all...the Bride is not under the Mosiac law.
And again,..if the Bride is not present,..then it is obvious that the Holy Spirit is no longer restraining,..and has been taken out of the way,..so when He is taken out of the way,..the Holy Spirit takes the Bride with Him.
The Lord said, that He would never leave nor forsake us.
We know that the holy spirit is omnipresent and was present before the creation of the world.
The old testament saints,..where worthy of heaven when they had lived and died in faith.Their works followed them.King David cried out that the Holy Spirit would not be taken from him when he had committed adultery.Under the Mosiac Law,....if you committed one sin,...then it was like committing them all.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The comforter is the Holy Spirit, but yet keep in mind that the Holy spirit is omnipresent.
This means that the Holy Spirit(Comforter)had a special task to do on earth!
And on the day of Pentecost,...The church age was born!
Each person who comes to the cross of calvary and ask's the Lord into their heart,...the Holy Spirit seals them with the promise.
And when the Comforter 's task is completed on this earth,(The Fullness of the Gentiles)...The Holy Spirit indwelt Bride which hinders the revealing of the son of perdition,....is taken out of the way.
This usage is that of God"s Spirit carrying someone away. We see this usage illustrated in Acts 8:39 where Philip, upon completion of the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch,...and the Holy Spirit indwells each believer,.and when He is taken out of the way...The Holy Spirit takes the Bride with Him.
The church age will be over,the bride caught up into the air to meet the Lord.
The Holy spirit is still omnipresent,...and those who were left behind will have one of the greatest incentives the world has ever wittnessed to come to Christ Jesus...THE RAPTURE!.
But things will revert back to the way it was before the church age had began on the day of Pentecost.
by benny balerio on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:40 am
shorttribber wrote:benny balerio wrote:Obviously the meaning for sarcastic is not the same understanding between you and I.
Obviously
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm
1Cor13
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
In the Geneva Bible there is ONE wonderfully descriptive word for these words, "doth not behave itself unseemly". That ONE word is "disdaineth".
Here's the meaning
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disdain
by tharkun on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:47 am
benny balerio wrote: You Quote:
Benny, your attempts at misdirection only reveal the weakness of your argument. Do you have a scriptural refence that shows that a role of the Holy Spirit is to restrain evil in the word or not?
My Reply:
Not misdirect....I can lead you to water,..but it's still about free will,..you choose.
benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
Glib responses and sarcastic smilies do not help your argument. We are not debating my views or my arguments, we are debating yours. My opinion on whether there is a rapture or not, or when it will occur are irrelevant to the debate that you started with the OP (you did post this in a debate forum, you know). I'm interested in debating the OP FROM the scriptures and not TO them.
My Reply:
Not sarcastic,..it is just plain funny that you attempt to tell me how you want that burger made up.
by shorttribber on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:52 am
benny balerio wrote:Now short tribber,...give me a reason why you claim that there is not a pre-trib rapture.
I don't want a lot of talk and explanation; I want a simple scripture reference. Thanks.
by tharkun on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:54 am
benny balerio wrote:
You Quote:
There seems to be some confusion on who or what is being restrained here. Benny has claimed both Satan and the AC, now you claim all lawlessness. Which is it?
My Reply:
No...you were the one who mentioned both here on this topic.
But to make this simple for you,...it is technikly satan being restrained,...he can only order his lil army of demons to influence the world on that that only what the Lord permits him in the accomplishment of lawlessness,..after all..is satan not the father of lies?
Tell us,..why are we as christians greater than he that is in the world?
by tharkun on Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:03 pm
benny balerio wrote: And He quotes:
I don't want a lot of talk and explanation; I want a simple scripture reference. Thanks.
My Reply:
It seems to me he was dictating,..placing an order if you will
and I laughed ...it was funny to see someone command.
Now short tribber,...give me a reason why you claim that there is not a pre-trib rapture.
I don't want a lot of talk and explanation; I want a simple scripture reference. Thanks.
by burien1 on Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:19 pm
but we all should mind the words and attitudes we project.
Philippians 4:5 "Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand."
There is another one . . .
2 Timothy 2:24-25
(24) And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
(25) in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
Now, the first and primary application of this passage is obviously teaching the unsaved, but still it shows the heart of the teacher, to whomever they are endeavoring to teach.
Gentleness. You are among family.
John 13:35;
By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples: if ye have love one for another."
by jgilberAZ on Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:02 pm
The first guy I talk to is just "odd." He knows scripture inside and out. He talks about
what's going on in the world, and he's correct. Yet, he's evasive. He doesn't really answer
my questions. Every time I ask him a question, he goes into a very weird kind of "speech."
He quotes scripture, and talks about those who are deceived (especially the Freemasons),
and never answers me. Sometimes, I feel like I'm about to get him to answer me, then
the door just slams shut. Sometimes, his "speech" seems like it's agreeable to me. Yet,
it also sometimes feels like he's attacking me. It confused me. I couldn't figure out how
to proceed. Is he a Christian? Is he a false Christian? Is he a deceiver? I bounced
between each of those opinions during our conversation (more like a monologue). It
was an encounter such like I've never had before.
After about 10+ minutes of this, I notice he has a Freemason symbol on his shirt:
http://www.risingsunlodge29.org/beta/sac_trans_bg.png
Then I start to put two and two together. I try to continue the conversation (a little
more knowledgeable at this point), to no avail. So, I tell him I have to keep moving
to talk to other people and start to leave. As I leave, I tell him I'll pray for him. His
demeanor changed instantly. He went from a mostly pleasant person to a gruff,
almost hostile person. He said with an angry voice, "Pray for yourself !" Frankly,
the transformation and hostility startled me, and even shook me up a little.
It was a weird encounter. I think now, that this man was certainly under satan's
influence, and that all he was trying to accomplish was to confuse and discourage
me so that I wouldn't talk to anyone else that night. It didn't work. I still spoke to
a few more people. But, I certainly felt as if I had been spiritually assaulted.
by benny balerio on Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:22 pm
tharkun wrote:benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
Appeals to authorities are irrelevant. I don’t build my belief based on someone else’s opinion, I want to see a scripture that shows the Holy Spirit restraining evil in the world.
My Reply:
When I read,..I am guided by the Holy Spirit as to what is truth and what is not......So tell us,..how did you come to your conclusion?
My conclusion is irrelevant; it is your belief that is being debated. And I don’t think Fruchtenburg is the Holy Spirit either.benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
This is evidence of who the restrainer is? What a joke! “I can’t think of any other answer, therefore, it must be the Holy Spirit and therefore pre-trib is right!” Poor logic and poor scholarship.
My Reply:
So tell us,..how did you conclude that Michael was the Restrainer?
My conclusion is irrelevant; it is your belief that is being debated. My response is not an attempt to prove Michael is the restrainer; it is an attempt to find out what scripture says that the Holy Spirit is.benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
Well which is it, is the HS restraining the AC or Satan? If He’s restraining Satan, He seems to be doing a pretty poor job of it, given the way the world is functioning these days. If He’s restraining the AC, then ‘spiritual realm’ argument is irrelevant and doesn’t help your OP.
My Reply:
Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"
Be careful of how you address the Holy Spirit in your arrogance.
Per Thess 2, the mystery of iniquity is already at work (that means that the Holy Spirit is not restraining it). And the only thing that is revealed after the restrainer is removed is the AC, not all evil or lawlessness. Your Matt reference has nothing to do with the AC. And your ad hominems do not help your argument at all. Does this have to devolve in to personal jabs? Why can you not show me the scripture?benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
This is more misdirection and doesn’t add evidence that the HS is the restrainer. There is no ‘dispensation of the Spirit’ in scripture. People were saved in the OT that they are in the NT, by grace through faith. Now the HS has a permanent dwelling within us. How does that mean that he restrains evil in the world?
My Reply:
There is a difference on how one was saved in the old Testiment and how one is saved on this side of the pre-trib rapture.
In the O.T. times ..one was saved by evidence of their faith.......Today one is saved by Grace.
In O.T. times....the Holy Spirit was Omnipresent,..but did not indwell mankind.
Today,..the Holy Spirit indwells the Believer,..that the moment we believed ...we were sealed by the promise of the Holy Spirit.
This is not a debate about soteriology, it is a debate about your identity of the restrainer. And your explanation denies what ‘omnipresent’ means. Either the HS is omnipresent or not; He can’t be both at the same time. Nor is it an argument for the HS being the restrainer.benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
Wow, even your authorities argue the same way you do. Fruchtenburg makes a statement that a role of the HS is to restrain evil, and yet he offers NOT ONE scripture to back up this statement.
My Reply:
Praise God for His Spirit!
It seems that you are blind and cannot see the works of the Holy Spirit in the past or present age.
Hitler(a pawn of satan) attempted to wipe out the Jewish race,..so that the prophecies of God could not come to pass,..hitler has been restrained,..but yet attempts to derail Gods plan.
Satan does not want one person to become saved,...But no one calls Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit.
Believe me,..satan is restrained by the Holy Spirit.
More ad hominem attacks, and still more conclusions without any scriptural support. If I am blind, open my eyes to the scriptures that prove what you’re claiming.benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
If the HS is omnipresent, he is resident everywhere. The Isaiah passage speaks of the Spirit of the Lord driving away or defeating evil not merely restraining it. And the surrounding verses reveal that the power of His spirit is expressed through the Redeemed, Who is Christ; therefore, the Isaiah passage shows that ultimately it will be the Messiah who will destroy the wicked. Since that is not what the OP argued, it is not support for the OP.
My Reply:
The Holy Spirit indwells the Believer today,..And Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world,...we are all conquerers through Christ Jesus.
Without Jesus,..you can do nothing of your own.
Only Jesus the Christ is worthy of the Honor and the Glory,..this is the reason why the 24 elders laid their crowns before the throne.
revelation 4;11
11“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
And how does this diversion prove that the HS is the restrainer?benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
This is an argument from silence; absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And other rapture views could point to reasons for why “what the Spirit says to the churches” is omitted and it be completely consistent with the rest of their view. Pre-trib is not true by default. And if this is the best scriptural argument it has, it is as weak as suspected.
My Reply:
Argument from silence?
Clue after clue leads to weight of evidence,.....suppose you present weight of evidence of your view.
What clues? All you have is your pre-conceived belief that forces you to interpret scripture such that it conforms to the pre-trib rapture theory. You haven’t offered a single ‘clue’ from scripture that shows the HS restraining evil.benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
This scripture proves not being subject to wrath, it says nothing about the 70th week. This point assumes a pre-trib belief.
My Reply:
Sure it does .....God's Wrath begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20 which begins slightly prior to Daniels 70th week and continues thoughout Daniels 70th week.So actually it does prove pre-trib beyond a reasonable doubt.
Well, I disagree, but since I am attempting to stay on topic of the OP, I will defer any rebuttal to an appropriate thread. At any rate, this argument does not show the HS restraining evil.benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
The 70th week is BECAUSE OF the Jewish people, that doesn’t mean that the events only include Israel. By that logic, I can argue that the rebellious gentile nations are not a part of the 70th week, because it is not for them.
My Reply:
You have not an arguement to back yourself up.
Romans 11;
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this isf my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may nowh receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Daniels 70th week is called ..The Time of Jacobs Trouble"..the scriptures did not mention...The "time of the Gentiles Trouble as identified with Daniels 70th week.
So then you agree that by YOUR OWN logic that the rebellious gentile nations are not a part of the 70th week? You can’t have it both ways, Benny, if the gentile nations to be judged are part of the 70th week “for ONLY Israel”, then the 70th week is not “for ONLY Israel”.benny balerio wrote:You Quote:
So? He was speaking to Jews and Jews that believed in Him as Messiah. How does this prove that the HS is the restrainer? More misdirection to deflect from lack of scriptural support.
To sum up, we have an appeal to authority, an argument from silence, more misdirection to other issues, and more repetition of the pre-trib belief based on pre-trib assumptions leading to more circular arguments. And still not ONE SINGLE VERSE showing that one of the Holy Spirit’s roles is to restrain evil in the world.
My Reply:
Well first of all,..my reply was revealing that the Bride was not present,..after all...the Bride is not under the Mosiac law.
And again,..if the Bride is not present,..then it is obvious that the Holy Spirit is no longer restraining,..and has been taken out of the way,..so when He is taken out of the way,..the Holy Spirit takes the Bride with Him.
The Lord said, that He would never leave nor forsake us.
We know that the holy spirit is omnipresent and was present before the creation of the world.
The old testament saints,..where worthy of heaven when they had lived and died in faith.Their works followed them.King David cried out that the Holy Spirit would not be taken from him when he had committed adultery.Under the Mosiac Law,....if you committed one sin,...then it was like committing them all.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The comforter is the Holy Spirit, but yet keep in mind that the Holy spirit is omnipresent.
This means that the Holy Spirit(Comforter)had a special task to do on earth!
And on the day of Pentecost,...The church age was born!
Each person who comes to the cross of calvary and ask's the Lord into their heart,...the Holy Spirit seals them with the promise.
And when the Comforter 's task is completed on this earth,(The Fullness of the Gentiles)...The Holy Spirit indwelt Bride which hinders the revealing of the son of perdition,....is taken out of the way.
This usage is that of God"s Spirit carrying someone away. We see this usage illustrated in Acts 8:39 where Philip, upon completion of the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch,...and the Holy Spirit indwells each believer,.and when He is taken out of the way...The Holy Spirit takes the Bride with Him.
The church age will be over,the bride caught up into the air to meet the Lord.
The Holy spirit is still omnipresent,...and those who were left behind will have one of the greatest incentives the world has ever wittnessed to come to Christ Jesus...THE RAPTURE!.
But things will revert back to the way it was before the church age had began on the day of Pentecost.
And once again, we’re back on the pre-trib argument based on pre-trib assumption train. Benny, repeating the same thing over and over doesn’t add to your case. I know the pre-trib arguments by heart, I used to believe them myself. After all the back and forth, you still have not offered a SINGLE verse showing that the Holy Spirit restrains evil.
I am not arguing for a Michael restrainer, I don’t know who the restrainer is. I don’t think scripture is clear enough to reach a firm conclusion. I do know that I can at least point to scriptures showing Michael as a restraining influence on other beings, exactly what is described in II Thess. I have yet to see a scripture showing the HS doing this.
Still waiting,
tharkun
by benny balerio on Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:29 pm
tharkun wrote:benny balerio wrote: And He quotes:
I don't want a lot of talk and explanation; I want a simple scripture reference. Thanks.
My Reply:
It seems to me he was dictating,..placing an order if you will
and I laughed ...it was funny to see someone command.
Now short tribber,...give me a reason why you claim that there is not a pre-trib rapture.
I don't want a lot of talk and explanation; I want a simple scripture reference. Thanks.
This was not a demand, it was a request; it seems you are reading too much into a post. The most convincing arguments are those that are the most direct with the least amount of fluff and clear, unequivocal evidence leading to a conclusion. That is all I ASKED for, not commanded.
tharkun
PS. And I am still asking.
by shorttribber on Mon Jun 27, 2011 1:39 pm
shorttribber wrote:Resurrection Torchlight wrote:those of you who claim angels can do that, please site scripture as evidence.
Daniel 10:13
13 “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
This passage in fact shows that the Prince of Persia (an angelic being) restrained the angel speaking to Daniel until Micheal (an angelic being) came to help him. These are forces of good and evil, but not all lawlessness, nor all lawfulness. They fight against one another at least in the OT. The evil forces (lawless) withstand the righteous (lawful), and the righteous withstand the evil, this fighting apparently went both ways both had the ability to withstand the other, it wasn't until Micheal joined in the fight that the Prince of Persia was overcome.
I did RTshorttribber wrote:Daniel 10
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that..... holdeth with me.... in these things, but Michael your prince.
We are not told that the one who "holds back/restrains" is the one who holds back ALL lawlessness, he just holds back lawlessness...........fights against and STANDS against lawlessness..........and spiritual wickedness.
Just stay within what the text says and not include more.
by Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:20 pm
Things to note:
1) The mystery of iniquity is already at work (therefore it is NOT being restrained).
2) When the Restrainer is removed, something will happen (the Holy Spirit is a spirit and omnipresent; therefore, ‘removal’ has no meaning if omnipresent means anything at all).
3) It is the AC who is revealed when the Restrainer is removed (not all wickedness)
Therefore,
1) There is no need for an omnipresent restrainer, when it is only a single entity being restrained.
2) There is scriptural evidence of angels single-handedly restraining other entities (Dan 10:13).
3) There is scriptural evidence that when Michael ‘stands up’ (literally ‘stands still’) that the time of trouble will fall upon Israel.
1) The mystery of iniquity is already at work (therefore it is NOT being restrained).
restrains
Strong's Greek #2722
2722 κατέχω [katecho /kat·ekh·o/] v. From 2596 and 2192; TDNT 2:829; TDNTA 286; GK 2988; 19 occurrences; AV translates as “hold” three times, “hold fast” three times, “keep” twice, “possess” twice, “stay” once, “take” once, “have” once, “make” once, and translated miscellaneously five times. 1 to hold back, detain, retain. 1a from going away. 1b to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of). 1b1 that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance. 1b2 to check a ship’s headway i.e. to hold or head the ship. 1c to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of. 2 to get possession of, take. 2b to possess.
2) When the Restrainer is removed, something will happen (the Holy Spirit is a spirit and omnipresent; therefore, ‘removal’ has no meaning if omnipresent means anything at all).
3) It is the AC who is revealed when the Restrainer is removed (not all wickedness)
Therefore,
1) There is no need for an omnipresent restrainer, when it is only a single entity being restrained.
2) There is scriptural evidence of angels single-handedly restraining other entities (Dan 10:13).
3) There is scriptural evidence that when Michael ‘stands up’ (literally ‘stands still’) that the time of trouble will fall upon Israel.
Daniel 12:1
1 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Proverbs 29:18
18 Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained,
But happy is he who keeps the law.
Proverbs 11:8
8 The righteous is delivered from trouble,
But the wicked takes his place.
Amos 8:11-12
11 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord God,
“When I will send a famine on the land,
Not a famine for bread or a thirst for water,
But rather for hearing the words of the Lord.
12 “People will stagger from sea to sea
And from the north even to the east;
They will go to and fro to seek the word of the Lord,
But they will not find it.
by tharkun on Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:24 pm
benny balerio wrote:
You Quote;
My conclusion is irrelevant; it is your belief that is being debated. And I don’t think Fruchtenburg is the Holy Spirit either.
My Reply:
Since you claim that your conclusion is irrevelant,..then you have not basis for debate,...you have nothing to present in the matter, for or against.
No,..Fruchtenburg is not the Holy Spirit,..but how did you come to that conclusion?
benny balerio wrote:
You quote:
My conclusion is irrelevant; it is your belief that is being debated. My response is not an attempt to prove Michael is the restrainer; it is an attempt to find out what scripture says that the Holy Spirit is.
My Reply:
Then ..I conclude that the answers that reveal weight of evidence is sufficient to conclude that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit.......if you choose to remain in deniel,.then this was your choice.
You obviously cannot prove that the Holy Spirit is not the Restrainer.
benny balerio wrote:
You Quote:
Per Thess 2, the mystery of iniquity is already at work (that means that the Holy Spirit is not restraining it). And the only thing that is revealed after the restrainer is removed is the AC, not all evil or lawlessness. Your Matt reference has nothing to do with the AC. And your ad hominems do not help your argument at all. Does this have to devolve in to personal jabs? Why can you not show me the scripture?
My Reply:
definition of restrain:
These verbs mean to hold back or keep under control. Restrain implies restriction or limitation.
Tharkun,...it does not mean to stop lawlessness dead in its tracks,..so you really do not have a valid arguement here.
The ac cannot appear onto the world stage ...not until the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.
I'll give you a hint in understanding who the Bride is in Christ Jesus.
"The devils know that Jesus is Lord and they tremble!!!"
I am not making this personal,..sorry if you perceive this as such,..I am only revealing the truth here.
You State.."Why can you not show me the scripture?"
I believe RT did a good job in his presentation.
I think that you really need to slow down and read slowly what Rt said.
benny balerio wrote:
You Quote:
This is not a debate about soteriology, it is a debate about your identity of the restrainer. And your explanation denies what ‘omnipresent’ means. Either the HS is omnipresent or not; He can’t be both at the same time. Nor is it an argument for the HS being the restrainer.
My Reply:
Obviously the Holy Spirit is omnipresent,../so why would you think that He may not?
benny balerio wrote:
You Quote:
More ad hominem attacks, and still more conclusions without any scriptural support. If I am blind, open my eyes to the scriptures that prove what you’re claiming.
My Reply:
Tharkun,..I am not attacking you personally,..But I am stating to you, what I believe that I am seeing in you,..It really does seem to me that you are blind to the truth even though it is looking you squarely in the face and you cannot recognize it,..I see this in others so you are not alone.
I do question this ,..especially since it should be obviously clear.
There are people out there who claim the the Holy spirit said this or that,..and yet their claims supposively heard from the Holy Spirit is not scriptural.Oh true,..they honestly believe that they heard,..but it is not the Holy spirit that they are giving heed too.
No one likes to admit that they are wrong in who is guiding there thoughts.
I wonder if these people are really living a double life,...like they go to church,..and still live in the world with their heart.
If one is going to hear from God,..you must seek Him with all of your heart, mind, and soul.....as though this one task was more important than life itself......if you will do this,..you will find him.
And when you hear His voice,..act on it in faith..regardless of what the world say or thinks of your actions,..because if it is really from God,...Signs will follow you!......Tharkun...tried and true!
benny balerio wrote:
You Quote:
And how does this diversion prove that the HS is the restrainer?
My Reply:
Yes it does,...I ask you...Once a rapture occurs,..does the Holy Spirit ever leave the Bride?
And if you entered Daniels 70th week,..are you at that time saved by grace,..or are you save by evidence of your faith?
The answer reveals that the Holy Spirit was no longer indwelling the believer and not saved by grace at that time period.
benny balerio wrote:
You Quote:
What clues? All you have is your pre-conceived belief that forces you to interpret scripture such that it conforms to the pre-trib rapture theory. You haven’t offered a single ‘clue’ from scripture that shows the HS restraining evil.
My Reply:
Luke 12;36
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
The Lord returned to the earth a married man...Who do you think He married before He returned?
The answer is obvious.
There are so many clues that it is hard to count them all.
And as concerning the restrainer as the holy Spirit,..I think RT gives the best explanation,..you should listen to him.
benny balerio wrote:
You Quote:
Well, I disagree, but since I am attempting to stay on topic of the OP, I will defer any rebuttal to an appropriate thread. At any rate, this argument does not show the HS restraining evil.
My Reply:
It's a shame that you were silent the whole time that the "Gog/Magog is Armageddon" debate was ongoing awhile back.
If the Holy Spirit was not restraining,..you would not exist today.
benny balerio wrote:
You Quote:
So then you agree that by YOUR OWN logic that the rebellious gentile nations are not a part of the 70th week? You can’t have it both ways, Benny, if the gentile nations to be judged are part of the 70th week “for ONLY Israel”, then the 70th week is not “for ONLY Israel”.
My Reply:
You misunderstand the reasoning for Daniels 70th week,....it is for Daniels people.
The first 69 weeks was without the Bride,..and the remaining week will too be without the Bride.
Daniels 70th week is designed to bring Israel unto repentance.
The gentiles who were left behind in the pre-trib rapture will have a chance to be saved,..but the cost is high!
They will have to proved their faith by evidence that they believe.
You see,..if these during Daniels 70th week were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise,..then they would not have to maintain their salvation.
So ,...if the Holy spirit is omnipresent,..then tell us what is the reason the Lord had to send the Holy Spirit?
benny balerio wrote:
You Quote:
And once again, we’re back on the pre-trib argument based on pre-trib assumption train. Benny, repeating the same thing over and over doesn’t add to your case. I know the pre-trib arguments by heart, I used to believe them myself. After all the back and forth, you still have not offered a SINGLE verse showing that the Holy Spirit restrains evil.
I am not arguing for a Michael restrainer, I don’t know who the restrainer is. I don’t think scripture is clear enough to reach a firm conclusion. I do know that I can at least point to scriptures showing Michael as a restraining influence on other beings, exactly what is described in II Thess. I have yet to see a scripture showing the HS doing this.
Still waiting,
My Reply:
Again,..if you do not know who the restrainer is,..then you have not an arguement to present here.
Weight of evidence reveals the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer,..and again,..RT,..presented a very good case for the Holy Spirit as being the Restrainer.
When taking in the context as a whole,..there is not but one answer...The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer.
by Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:43 pm
I answered RT benny..............Why search for "clues" when we are told by the plain text who "restrain" principalities who are against the laws of God?
Wrong personExodus 32:7-9
7 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, “Go down at once, for your people, whom you brought up from the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.
8 “They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’ ”
9 The Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people.
by Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:51 pm
by shorttribber on Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:08 pm
Resurrection Torchlight wrote: Wrong person
Searching for clues goes both ways, the passage in question is 2 Thess, wouldn't the passage in Daniel that is used as support for your view and others be considered searching for clues??????/
by shorttribber on Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:In this context it would mean "to hinder the progress of". Even the passage you used from Daniel to show how an angel "restrains" shows the same idea. The Prince of Persia was not eliminated, but rather hindered just as he first hindered the angel speaking to Daniel as well. The passage in 2 Thess. itself states that the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, the point being it is not fully at work, because the restraint is in place to hinder its progress. When the restraint is removed, then lawlessness will progress unabated. That is the whole point behind the passage itself.
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Looks like Micheal stands guard over the sons of Israel, this is a defensive position, he is guarding. This is restraint to keep evil from occuring not to let it occur. The standing "still" means to remain firm, steadfast in the face of evil. This has nothing to do with being taken out of the way, it has to do with Micheal who already stands guard and he will remain steadfast in taking that stand during the time of Jacob's trouble. In fact we know that Micheal and his angels do battle against the dragon and his angels in Revelation 12. As a result Satan is cast down to earth. Micheal is not taken out of the way, he simply overcomes evil, in short his forces win the battle.
by The Orange Mailman on Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:43 pm
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