The tares and the wheat

[WOODHENOT3]

Matthew 13:24-30

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Seem to me:Jesus said, an enemy has sown tares (weeds) in the field. The servants ask, should we take the tares out? Jesus says no, let them both grow until the harvest. Then take up the tares FIRST and gather them into bundles, then burn them up. THEN (next) gather up the wheat in my barn.

Jesus explained again to the disciples....The devil is the enemy, the tares are the children of the devil (sinners), the wheat are the children of God (saved). The harvest is the end of the world (not 7yrs before the end of the world). At which time, I shall send out my reaping angels, to remove all the offending TARES [ plucked out from the living ], to burn them causing wailing and gnashing of teeth. THEN (next) shall the righteous shine forth as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Seems to me that Christians will be taken up just before the "meltdown"....I am trying to understand this parable, not to debate the tribulation views, all of Jesus parables are the wicked first, then the Christians.....

Am I interpreting this verse correctly?

Thanks, In Christ

[mark s]

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

[WOODHENOT3]

Could this parable also imply that the Christians are taken up after the Tribulations(wrath)?

[mark s]

Seems to me that Christians will be taken up just before the "meltdown"....I am trying to understand this parable, not to debate the tribulation views, all of Jesus parables are the wicked first, then the Christians.....

Am I interpreting this verse correctly?

Thanks, In Christ

Could this parable also imply that the Christians are taken up after the Tribulations(wrath)?

Hi WOODHENOT3,

By "taken up", are you referring to 1 Thess. 4:17?

These righteous in the parable I don't see as being "taken up" at all, rather, they're the ones left remaining when everyone else has been removed.

That is why I associate it with the "sheep" of the "sheep and goats" judgment. Those are ones who are left remaining after the rest have been removed.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[WOODHENOT3]

So, the parable is speaking of the "white throne" judgment?
or is it speaking of the end of the 70th week?
thanks, love in Christ

[mark s]

I'm thinking it best matches to the sheep goats judgment, which happens when Jesus returns in glory, at the end of the age.

Matthew 24:29-31
(29) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
(30) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-32
(31) "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
(32) All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

Jesus comes in glory, gathers the chosen, then gathers the nations, and separates them into the wicked and the righteous. The wicked are sent away, the righteous remain, to enter the kingdom.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I believe this parable is speaking of the white throne judgment, which occurs after the millennial reign. I also believe that the sheep/goats judgment also occurs at this time. The only record we have of a resurrection of the wicked is at the final judgment at the end of the millennium. The tares are those wicked, the wheat are the redeemed who are saved during the millennium who will die during the 1000 year reign and are raised to life. There are three harvest seasons celebrated according to the law- barley first fruits, celebrated the first Sabbath after the passover at the beginning of spring. Wheat first fruits (as well as other crops) celebrated at pentecost,the beginning of summer and then the end of the general wheat harvest celebrated at the beginning of fall. Each of these 'gatherings" I believe represent a resurrection of the righteous. The Barley first fruits are those in Christ before His return, the Wheat First fruits- those who are His at His return, and then the rest of the wheat harvest- those who are His at the end of the Millennium.

The reaping of the grain represents the death of the people, the gathering represents their resurrection.

RT

[mark s]

Hi RT,

So then you do not see these as the same event?

"the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

&

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him,

Love in Christ,
Mark

[WOODHENOT3]

Thank you Mark!
I was sharing with a pastor about the coming of Jesus between the 6th and 7th seal in Rev. and the pastor said
that I got it wrong and said that Jesus is not coming til after the 70th week is over....as he gave me the parables...
So, I was double checking on it.....I was starting to think if we are here throughout the wrath as Noah did or Lot.....

[mark s]

I don't think we'll be here for the trumpets or bowls. I think we're caught up at about the 6th seal. Of course, I think that the 70th week begins with the 7th seal . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

[WOODHENOT3]

I agree Mark, but why would you think the 70th week to begin at the 7th seal?
Thessalonian says, we will be here when the AC reigns or even 5th seal says we will be persecuted by the AC,
how does that fit ?

[mark s]

Time for me to log off and get some dinner going for the wife and I, but I'll be more than happy to answer when I have some more time.

The short answer is, I don't thing that's what 2 Thess is saying, and . . .

What do you suppose is the significance of the souls being under the altar?

More to come!



Love in Christ,
Mark

[1whowaits]

In Matt 25 the unrighteous are sent into 'eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' The devil is cast into the lake of fire at the end of the millenium, it would appear that the eternal fire prepared for the devil is the Lake of Fire. Prior to the end of the millenium there is no evidence that anyone other than the AC and FP are cast into the lake of Fire. Prior to the GWTJ men are sent to Hades, the place of holding, which is emptied at the GWTJ, according to Rev 20.

So the only time men appear to be cast into the eternal fire prepared for the devil is at the end of the millenium, at the GWTJ, which would place the sheep and goats judgement at the end of the millenium.

In Matt 24 it appears that the righteous are gathered at the time Jesus returns in the clouds, when the sun and moon are darkened, which would place the event around the time of armageddon, as Zech 14 and Joel 3 describe. The unrighteous are gathered by the AC and Satan to armageddon, and they are trampled by Jesus when He sets foot on the earth as Zech 14 and Rev 19 describe. At the time of Christ's return in the clouds, the righteous are gathered by the angels, the unrighteous are gathered by Satan to armageddon and are killed (and are sent to Hades).

In Matt 13 the unrighteous are gathered first by angels and cast into the firey furnace, the righteous are then gathered into the kingdom. As the order of collection is different it appears that the gathering of Matt 13 could be different from than that of Matt 24.

The DOTL does appear to include both armageddon and the millenium, and as the end of the age appears to be a reference to the DOTL, the 'gathering' at the end of the age could refer to an event at the beginning or the end of the millenium. Matt 24 could refer to an event at the time of armageddon and the beginning of the DOTL and the millenium (aka the end of the age), while Matt 25 and Matt 13 refer to an event at the end of the DOTL and the millenium (aka the end of the age), the GWTJ.

[mark s]

The timing on this sheep goats judgment is inescapable. Jesus returns in glory, and when He does, He judges the nations.

Even when we send someone to prison, they don't go straight to the state penitentiary, they go to a temporary lock up.

But even so, the timing is very clearly stated.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

I agree Mark, but why would you think the 70th week to begin at the 7th seal?
Thessalonian says, we will be here when the AC reigns or even 5th seal says we will be persecuted by the AC,
how does that fit ?

Hi WOODHENOT3,

On Thessalonians,

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
(1) Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
(2) that you should not be soon shaken in mind or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word or letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ (or Day of the Lord) is at hand.
(3) Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
(4) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

The Day that won't come before the man of sin be revealed is the Day of Christ, or the Day of the Lord. That is the day of wrath.

Our being gathered to Jesus is not referred to in Scripture as "that day". The Thess. church was apparently troubled concerning their being gathered to Jesus because someone was telling them that the Day of the Lord had arrived. Not that the rapture had arrived, which would be a good thing.

Love in Christ, Mark

[1whowaits]

Mark, actually Matt 25 does not state where Jesus is coming in His glory to, there is no statement that He is coming to earth. It appears from Rev 20 and 21 that at the time of the GWTJ the earth is being remade, earth and sky flees from His presence (burned with fire as Peter indcates), and a new earth is depicted after the GWTJ.

As the earth is burned with fire and reformed it would appear that there would be a time when men and Jesus would not be on the earth, and from Rev 20 this time would appear to be the GWTJ. If the earth is being burned at the time of the GWTJ, where does the GWTJ take place? As Jesus would reign on the earth during the millenium, and the earth is burned and remade at the end of the millenium, Jesus would appear to travel somewhere to conduct the GWTJ.

The most likely place to go during the time the earth is being burned with fire would be heaven. So when Jesus is described as coming in glory with His angels in Matt 25, this could just as easily be a depiction of His return to heaven after the millenium during the time the earth is being burned and remade.

As Matt 25 does not indicate where this event takes place, it could be on earth or in heaven, the most definitive statement is that regarding the lake of fire which only occurs at the end of the millenium, placing Matt 25 as an event at the end of the millenium.

[mark s]

Revelation 6:9-10
(9) And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
(10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Until when, Master, holy and true, do You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?


Ephesians 2:4-6
(4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us
(5) (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),
(6) and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,

If we are "in Christ Jesus", who is "under the altar"? What does the altar signify?

These are killed during the great tribulation:

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These are those under the altar:

"those who had been slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held."

What do you notice different? How do you account for that difference?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Mark, actually Matt 25 does not state where Jesus is coming in His glory to, there is no statement that He is coming to earth.

I don't know, man.

They will see Him coming in power and great glory . . . and when He comes in glory . . .

Seems straightforward to me.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[1whowaits]

Mark, Jesus has 2 thrones, the throne of the Father in heaven and the throne of His father David on earth. Can He only be seen coming in glory to one throne? Is Jesus confined to the earth? How would His return to heaven be viewed? Am i asking too many questions?

Again the more definitive statement in the passage would appear to be the reference to the lake of Fire, in my limited opinion anyway.

[mark s]

Um, not to nitpick, but wouldn't His Father's throne be His Father's throne?

Still, I have to stand with, He's coming in glory, and when He comes in glory, He'll sit on His throne.

The chosen are gathered, then the nations are gathered.

OK, we've been round and round this before. Many times. So feel free to post another if you wish, and I'll leave it at this.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Again the more definitive statement in the passage would appear to be the reference to the lake of Fire, in my limited opinion anyway.

OK I lied . . . one more. Matt. 25 doesn't mention the lake of fire. It mentions eternal punishment, but that could begin somewhere else.

OK, that's it for me . . .

[M.C.Nige]

Jesus comes in glory, gathers the chosen, then gathers the nations, and separates them into the wicked and the righteous. The wicked are sent away, the righteous remain, to enter the kingdom.

Hi Mark. Hope you are still around!

Just out of interest, who do you believe the chosen are who are gathered? Thanks.

[mark s]

Hi M.C.,

The Chosen . . . The Nations . . .

The Jews . . . The Gentiles . . .

I think the sheep / goats is the same as Joel 3.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi RT,

So then you do not see these as the same event?

"the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

&

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him,

Love in Christ,
Mark

Matthew 24:30
30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:31-34
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Wow you guys have covered a lot of ground here- I will try not to repeat what others have said- but yes I do see these events as the same event. However I see that His sitting on His throne and the sheep and goats separation are like bookends to the millennial reign. (We have talked about this idea before with other passages.) As others have said and I agree that it is pretty clear that the separation of the sheep from the goats describes a resurrection either to life or eternal condemnation depending on whether one is a sheep or a goat. And since we know that the wicked receive their eternal reward at the end of the 1000 year reign- this separation at least from my perspective must happen then.

Now I say that this is a resurrection because although we live in the promise that we will one day receive eternal life, we will not actually receive its full benefits until we are dead and resurrected to it or raptured into it. Also Matthew 25 does indicate that those goats are sent to eternal condemnation into eternal fire- this IMO has to be a reference to the lake of fire. While the righteous sheep- go into eternal life.

Matthew 25:41
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

The sheep and goats are judged according to their deeds- just like those gathered at the final judgment in revelation. Clearly what Matthew 25 describes is a resurrection event- not a gathering of men on earth. A distinction needs to be drawn between the millennial kingdom and the eternal kingdom. There are two parts to the Millennial kingdom- one heavenly and eternal and one earthly and temporary. All the righteous are raised to eternal life - into the heavenly eternal kingdom. Whether gathered before the 70th week, after it or at the end of the Millennium.

I believe that those raised to life in tha passage in Matthew 25 are those righteous who lived and died during the millennial reign. Now I know that there are many who claim that only the righteous will live on earth during the millennium-and that those righteous who live on earth during the Millennium will not die- I would disagree and if afforded more time will gladly explain why.

I do explain my understanding more here, (I also explain who I think the folks under the altar are)

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=56454

However there will be a judging of the nations that occurs at Christ's second coming- it is recompense for the evil done against Israel and Jerusalem - you pointed this out in your post above in Joel. it is not the same judgment IMO as what Matthew speaks of. This judgment does not coincide with a resurrection of the wicked but rather with a cutting off of the wicked- from life and power on the earth- a reaping, but not a gathering. It is from what I can tell what constitutes the final battle of what I believe to be the end of the Gog Magog (Ezekiel 38/39) war which takes place at Armageddon. When Christ returns to recompense and take vengeance on those who went against Israel. You will note that the Matthew 24 passage mentions no gathering of the wicked to Himself rather the angel's trumpet gathers only the elect.

Also I believe that there will be a judging that occurs during the millennium, just as there were judges who ruled over the affairs of the nation of Israel. This judging is also not the same Judgment IMO that Matthew speaks of. But rather a judging of the affairs between men. This judgment is what I believe we as resurrected believers will have a role in, and the disciples will judge the tribes of Israel, while we judge the nations. We will aid in performing the role of the court of elders. We will after all share in His rule over the nations.

Matthew 19:28
28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

1 Corinthians 6:2
2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?

Ezekiel 44:23-24
23 “Moreover, they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 “In a dispute they shall take their stand to judge; they shall judge it according to My ordinances. They shall also keep My laws and My statutes in all My appointed feasts and sanctify My sabbaths.

Isaiah 1:26
26 “Then I will restore your judges as at the first,
And your counselors as at the beginning;
After that you will be called the city of righteousness,
A faithful city.”

Isaiah 2:4 (Micah 4:2,3)
4 And He will judge between the nations,
And will render decisions for many peoples;
And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Mark, Jesus has 2 thrones, the throne of the Father in heaven and the throne of His father David on earth. Can He only be seen coming in glory to one throne? Is Jesus confined to the earth? How would His return to heaven be viewed? Am i asking too many questions?

I guess I see this idea a bit differently- I see that the Lord has one throne- the seat which resides in the heavenly tabernacle and the footstool which resides in the temple on earth in Jerusalem. The idea in Matthew is that Christ when He returns assumes physical rule over the earth. Again I can support this idea with scripture, but for the sake of shorter posts suffice it to say that what I have come to understand is that there is a heavenly new Jerusalem- where the seat of God's throne resides now and will continue to reside throughout the millennium. Currently that throne is not visible to those who reside on the earth. But I believe that during the Millennial reign it will become visible- just as it was to Moses on the mountain and to Ezekiel in his visions. Those on earth who are in the vicinity will be able to see into heaven through the "expanse" to view Christ seated on His throne. While on earth what scripture calls the footstool of His throne, the earthly Jerusalem and it's temple will reside- there will be a pillar of cloud and a pillar of fire like that which existed during the tabernacle/ first temple era. This manifestation will connect the seat with the footstool. (see Isaiah 4:5).

All the righteous who will have been resurrected to life- both those caught up in what we would call the rapture, and those martyrs who are resurrected after the great tribulation will reside in the New Jerusalem in heaven. Where they will rule with Christ from His throne. (it may be that they have access to the earthly realm as well). While those who survive the tribulation, both those unrighteous and the remnant of Israel will continue to reside on earth. The remnant Israel will reside in the old or earthly Jerusalem and have charge over the footstool. The remnants of the gentile nations will continue to reside throughout the earth as they do now, they will bring their wealth to the earthly Jerusalem and have envoys that are required to pay homage to the Lord. They will be subject to Christ. (see my study at the link in my post above)

At the end of the Millennium after the judgment, when the tares have been gathered and burned and the rest of God's harvest has been gathered in via resurrection. Then the earth is destroyed and a new earth created- New Jerusalem descends to the new earth. There is no longer a heavenly or earthly tabernacle (temple) for all will be as Christ. There won't be anyone left to rule over. New Jerusalem will be complete. I believe that when scripture talks about our inheritance being eternal life- that our resurrection is only part of it, we will realize it in full when we inherit the New Earth where only righteousness remains.

2 Peter 3:10-14
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,

RT

[M.C.Nige]

Hi M.C.,

The Chosen . . . The Nations . . .

The Jews . . . The Gentiles . . .

I think the sheep / goats is the same as Joel 3.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Thanks Mark for your quick response.

[The Orange Mailman]

So, the parable is speaking of the "white throne" judgment?
or is it speaking of the end of the 70th week?
thanks, love in Christ

WOODHENOT-

I believe the closest parallel to the parable of the wheat and the tares is Revelation 14:14-16 which describes the grain harvest of the Son of Man coming on a cloud. The timing there is after the great tribulation (Revelation 13) and before the wrath of God (Revelation 16, but also encapsulated within the vintage of Revelation 14:17-20, also termed the great winepress of God's wrath). The righteous shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father, so I believe we can cross reference passages which describe the resurrection, like Daniel 12:1-3.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[1whowaits]

Mark, have you forgotten our past discussions so quickly my friend? (i think this was 2 to 3 years ago) Rev 3 :21 indicates that Jesus sits on the Father's throne with His Father and in Rev 4 the Father is sitting on the throne and during the same event the Lamb is described as standing in the middle of the throne. It appears from Rev 4 that the Father, the One who sits on the throne, and the Lamb, Jesus, are on the throne at the same time (I and my Father are one). The Father sits on His throne, as does Jesus, the throne in heaven is the throne of the Father and of Jesus the Son (you put it as -One moves, the other is then visible, both are present- as i remember)

So Jesus does have 2 thrones that He sits on, the throne of the Father in heaven and the throne of David on earth. Which throne is being referred to in Matt 25? Which throne is the glorious throne?

And Matt 25 refers to the eternal fire 'prepared for the devil and his angels'. The eternal place of punishment for the devil is not Hades and it is not the Abyss, it is the Lake of Fire. So Matt 25 is referring to the Lake of Fire, that is the place the devil goes to for eternal punishment, unless there will be a mix up of some sort.

So we can't say exactly where the throne of Matt 25 is, as Jesus has 2 thrones it could be in heaven, it could be on earth. But what we do know is that Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity so the place prepared for the devil is the Lake of fire and men are only cast into that Lake at the end of the millenium (except for the AC and FP, not their armies, not anyone else ever mentioned), at the GWTJ.

The most likely conclusion would then be that Matt 25 is describing the GWTJ.

[M.C.Nige]

Mark, actually Matt 25 does not state where Jesus is coming in His glory to, there is no statement that He is coming to earth.

They will see Him coming in power and great glory . . . and when He comes in glory . . .

Mark's answer to my question (about who the chosen were) cemented something in my mind...

Personally, I tend to see the church (body of Christ) hidden from prophecies given prior to its birth on the day of Pentecost, as the prophecies would be from the perspective of Israel. This can be seen in the disciples' question to the Lord Jesus as late as Acts 1 v 6. The Lord Jesus' response to two of their earlier questions in Matthew 24 v 3

• What will be the sign of your coming
• What will be the end of the age

also have to be viewed from the perspective of Israel, I believe.

Therefore, to answer 1whowaits's point about where Jesus is coming in His glory to, perhaps Zechariah chapters 12-14 provides some insight.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

So Jesus does have 2 thrones that He sits on, the throne of the Father in heaven and the throne of David on earth. Which throne is being referred to in Matt 25? Which throne is the glorious throne?

Therefore, to answer 1whowaits's point about where Jesus is coming in His glory to, perhaps Zechariah chapters 12-14 provides some insight.

Ezekiel pretty much describes where exactly the "glory of the Lord" returns to:

Ezekiel 43:1-7
1 Then he led me to the gate, the gate facing toward the east;
2 and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory.
3 And it was like the appearance of the vision which I saw, like the vision which I saw when He came to destroy the city. And the visions were like the vision which I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell on my face.
4 And the glory of the Lord came into the house by the way of the gate facing toward the east.
5 And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house.
6 Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me.
7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die,

The "house" here is the earthly temple which Ezekiel had just got done describing in great detail in the passages prior- the place of His throne and the place of the soles of His feet. In other words to the footstool of His throne. To understand what exactly the "glory of the Lord" is we need to look back to what Ezekiel points us to in verse 3- his vision of the destroyers and the vision by the river Chebar which can be found here:

Ezekiel 1:26-28
26 Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man.
27 Then I noticed from the appearance of His loins and upward something like glowing metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His loins and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him.
28 As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.

Ezekiel 10:15-22
15 Then the cherubim rose up. They are the living beings that I saw by the river Chebar.
16 Now when the cherubim moved, the wheels would go beside them; also when the cherubim lifted up their wings to rise from the ground, the wheels would not turn from beside them.
17 When the cherubim stood still, the wheels would stand still; and when they rose up, the wheels would rise with them, for the spirit of the living beings was in them.
18 Then the glory of the Lord departed from the threshold of the temple and stood over the cherubim.
19 When the cherubim departed, they lifted their wings and rose up from the earth in my sight with the wheels beside them; and they stood still at the entrance of the east gate of the Lord’s house, and the glory of the God of Israel hovered over them.
20 These are the living beings that I saw beneath the God of Israel by the river Chebar; so I knew that they were cherubim.
21 Each one had four faces and each one four wings, and beneath their wings was the form of human hands.
22 As for the likeness of their faces, they were the same faces whose appearance I had seen by the river Chebar. Each one went straight ahead.

Ezekiel says in Chapter 43 above that the glory of the Lord returning to the temple looks the same as it did when it left, which he describes in detail in these earlier passages. God Is seated above the expanse on His heavenly throne- this would include Christ. I believe what Ezekiel saw- this one with the appearance of a man was a pre-incarnate Christ. His description matches John's vision of a glorified Christ in Revelation 1:13-15- The throne is what was removed from the temple, and one day it will return. Right now we are the footstool of His throne. What Ezekiel describes is the return of God's throne to make Jerusalem and the temple there His footstool once again. So not two thrones but one-that returns to its previous place whose footstool will occupy the throne of David on earth in the earthly temple in Jerusalem.

This is what is going on in Matthew's gospel except now all will see it, not just as a vision seen by a singular prophet.

Matthew 24:30
30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:31
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.

It's not that He ever leaves His throne,It's that He comes ON His throne which returns to occupy its previous place. I believe the point being made in Matthew 25 is that all will see Him seated on His glorious throne ruling over those on the earth.

RT

[mark s]

Mark, actually Matt 25 does not state where Jesus is coming in His glory to, there is no statement that He is coming to earth.

They will see Him coming in power and great glory . . . and when He comes in glory . . .

Mark's answer to my question (about who the chosen were) cemented something in my mind...

Personally, I tend to see the church (body of Christ) hidden from prophecies given prior to its birth on the day of Pentecost, as the prophecies would be from the perspective of Israel. This can be seen in the disciples' question to the Lord Jesus as late as Acts 1 v 6. The Lord Jesus' response to two of their earlier questions in Matthew 24 v 3

• What will be the sign of your coming
• What will be the end of the age

also have to be viewed from the perspective of Israel, I believe.

Therefore, to answer 1whowaits's point about where Jesus is coming in His glory to, perhaps Zechariah chapters 12-14 provides some insight.

M.C., these are a couple of key points. Confusing the Gentiles with the Jews creates much confusion . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Ready1]

AMEN!

[1whowaits]

MCN, I would disagree that Matt 25 is told from the perspective of Israel. Jesus mentions turning from the 'faith', the faith not being Judaism but Christianity. Jesus refers to the 'gospel of the kingdom' being preached in the whole world, the gospel not being a reference to Judaism but Christianity. Jesus refers to false Christ's coming in His name and causing deception, false Christ's coming in the name of Jesus would not deceive Israel but those who believed in Jesus, aka christians.

So as Matt 24 is directed at Christians and not Israel as a nation, the elect that will be gathered at His return would be Christians and not the nation of Israel. Which is confirmed by Zech 14, when Jesus returns He rescues the nation of Israel who is still in Jerusalem, and they have not been gathered by angels, they are being dispersed as they are taken into captivity by the nations atacking Jerusalem.

[mark s]

I would say that the kingdom Jesus was announcing was the God's Elect Servant ruling the world from Jerusalem. The Jews rejected Jesus as King, and God sent the gospel to the Gentiles.

The "gospel of the kingdom" disappears from the Scriptures, until in the Olivette Discourse, at the end of the age, it resurfaces, as Jesus is again preparing to bring His kingdom to the earth, not a "mystical kingdom", but an actual "King ruling from the throne" kingdom.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Jesus mentions turning from the 'faith', the faith not being Judaism but Christianity.

Hi 1whowaits,

I realize that this assertion is frequently made, but this is not what is contained in the Olivette Discourse.

Jesus refers to the 'gospel of the kingdom' being preached in the whole world, the gospel not being a reference to Judaism but Christianity. Jesus refers to false Christ's coming in His name and causing deception, false Christ's coming in the name of Jesus would not deceive Israel but those who believed in Jesus, aka christians.

These would be false 'messiahs' claiming to initiate the kingdom. They most certainly could deceive Israel.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[1whowaits]

Reasoning through Matt 25 a bit more, Jesus comes in glory to a place where He sits on a throne. During the millenium Jesus will reign on the throne of His father David, His earthly throne. In heaven and later on the new earth Jesus sits on the Father's throne in heaven aka the 'Throne of God and of the Lamb' in Rev 22. One would speculate that the Throne of God and the Lamb is more glorious that the earthly throne.

But there is 1 more throne that Jesus sits upon, the Great White Throne of Rev 20. In Rev 21 the One who sits on the throne is the Alpha and Omega which is the name Jesus calls Himself in Rev. And this would appear to be confirmed in John 5 where Jesus indicates that the Father has given Him 'the authority to judge', and the righteous and unrighteous (all who are in their graves) will rise, 'those who have done good will rise to live, those who have done evil will rise to be condemned'. Jesus is the one given authority to judge and raise from the dead the righteous and unrighteous.

Jesus rules on His earthly throne and His heavenly throne, but on the GW throne He judges. What is Jesus doing while on the throne in Matt 25?

Also we know that Jesus comes to earth and rules on His earthly throne, but does Jesus return to heaven at the making of the new earth? In Rev 21 the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to the new earth. The New Jerusalem is called the wife of the Lamb, and as the wife or bride of the Lamb is not a city but Christians, it would appear that Christians are in the New Jerusalem as it comes down from heaven. As the christians are coming down from heaven after the millenium it would follow that at some point they went up into heaven at the end of the millenium.

As the city comes down from heaven the city 'shines with the glory of God' and is 'brilliant'. Rev 21 also notes that the city gets its light from God and the Lamb- 'the city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.'

So as the light of the New Jerusalem comes from God and the Lamb, as the city shines and is brilliant as it comes down form heaven, it would follow that God and the Lamb are in the New Jerusalem as it descends form heaven to the new earth, otherwise there would be no light.

And it would follow that if Jesus is coming down from heaven in the New Jerusalem after the millenium that at some point Jesus would have returned to heaven from earth, which could be seen as Jesus coming to sit on His glorious throne in heaven.

So Matt 25 could indeed be consistent with the GWTJ, Jesus returns to heaven and sits on the GWT and He judges.

[1whowaits]

Mark, i would disagree with your interpretation of the 'gospel of the kingdom'. Stated in Matt 24 the 'gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.' The gospel of the kingdom that will be preached to the whole world is not Judaism, nor is it about the kingdom being restored to Israel, it is about faith in Christ and Jesus setting up His kingdom, it is the basics of Christianity and not Judaism. And at the end is the Christians who preach the gospel to the world, not Israel, Israel is protected in the wilderness, she is not carrying the gospel at the time of the end.

Jesus further refers to those standing firm until the end being saved, which is used in reference to Christians in Rev. Jesus refers to love growing cold, more a reference to Christianity than Judaism.

Jesus refers to the end, it is the christians that are encouraged to endure until the end in Rev, the people of Israel are protected in the wilderness, they are not pictured as enduring and they do not accept Christ until the very end when He returns.

Jesus also states that 'you will be hated by all nations because of me.' Israel is not hated by all nations because of Jesus, but Christians are, Jesus is referring directly to Christians and not the nation of Israel.

The statements by Jesus really fit Christianity in Matt 24, not Judaism. Which then would confirm that the elect that are gathered when Jesus returns are Christians, both Jew and Gentile. And when Jesus sets foot on the earth in Zech 14, the nation of Israel has not been gathered, they are being attacked and taken into captivity, they are not gathered to Jesus, Jesus comes to them.

[mark s]

Mark, i would disagree with your interpretation of the 'gospel of the kingdom'.

Hi 1whowaits,

What is the kingdom which is specifically spoken of in Scripture?

You say, "Jesus setting up His kingdom", when, and how does He do that?

Stated in Matt 24 the 'gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.' The gospel of the kingdom that will be preached to the whole world is not Judaism, nor is it about the kingdom being restored to Israel, it is about faith in Christ and Jesus setting up His kingdom, it is the basics of Christianity and not Judaism. And at the end is the Christians who preach the gospel to the world, not Israel, Israel is protected in the wilderness, she is not carrying the gospel at the time of the end.

Let's go back to the Olivette Discourse.

Matthew 24:14-16
(14) And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
(15) "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
(16) then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Is this gospel of the kingdom proclaimed before or after the Judeans flee? The way I read this, the gospel of the kingdom is preached to all nations before the abomination of desolation. That's the simple, straightforward reading of this passage.

How do you explain the gospel of the kingdom only being preached at the time of the first and second advents? John the Baptist came as a provisional fulfillment of Elijah, however, he was rejected just like Jesus was. And so even while saying that Elijah came, Jesus said that Elijah will come. Malachi prophesied a successful completion to Elijah's work.

Therefore, Elijah will be coming again. What do you suppose he will be proclaiming? I'm thinking it will be something like, "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". But I don't know for sure.

BTW, I think this is the best argument against Elijah being one of the two witnesses. They will be killed, but Elijah will succeed in preparing a people ready for the Lord. Just as an aside.

John proclaimed the kingdom of heaven. Jesus proclaimed the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven will be proclaimed at the time of the end of the age. But not once throughout the rest of the New Testament do we see the kingdom of heaven being proclaimed.

What is Jesus' kingdom?

Daniel 2:44
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

This is the promised kingdom. Not a spiritual kingdom, a kingdom upon the earth.

Jesus further refers to those standing firm until the end being saved, which is used in reference to Christians in Rev.

Aren't we, saved by faith? What kind of salvation is He talking about here? Could He be saying that times will be extremely difficult, but if you hang on, He's coming to rescue? Otherwise, are you thinking He's referring to an Arminian sort of salvation?

Jesus refers to love growing cold, more a reference to Christianity than Judaism.

Why Judaism? Why Christianity? What makes this statement favor one over the other? "Agape", the word used here for love, is not used exclusive to Christians. This can simply be speaking of people in general.

Jesus refers to the end, it is the christians that are encouraged to endure until the end in Rev,

What passage in Revelation do you have in mind specifically?

the people of Israel are protected in the wilderness, they are not pictured as enduring and they do not accept Christ until the very end when He returns.

Are you sure that none of them accept Christ til the end? Not that I think no gentiles will come to faith during the 70th week . . .

Why do you say they are not pictured as enduring?

Zechariah 13:8-9
(8) In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive.
(9) And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'They are my people'; and they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'"

Which land is this? Who is the prophet speaking of?

Jesus also states that 'you will be hated by all nations because of me.' Israel is not hated by all nations because of Jesus, but Christians are, Jesus is referring directly to Christians and not the nation of Israel.

Give it time . . .

When Obadiah is fulfilled, and Israel is celebrating their divine right to the promised land, when God is obviously favoring Israel in the destruction of Gog/Magog, when the beast is empowered by Satan . . .

The statements by Jesus really fit Christianity in Matt 24, not Judaism.

You keep saying "Christianity, and "Judaism", I'm not sure what you're saying really.

I'm talking about an audience - a people group.

(9) "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.

Could be Jews, could be Gentiles . . .

(10) And then many will stumble and betray one another and hate one another.

Could be Jews, could be Gentiles . . .

(11) And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.

Fits either . . . and so on, until:

(20) Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

Why would the Gentile Christian be concerned about fleeing on the Sabbath?

Which then would confirm that the elect that are gathered when Jesus returns are Christians, both Jew and Gentile. And when Jesus sets foot on the earth in Zech 14, the nation of Israel has not been gathered, they are being attacked and taken into captivity, they are not gathered to Jesus, Jesus comes to them.

Matthew 24:31
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What is the timeline given in this verse? How long does this take? When is it completed?

You know, it occurs to me . . . There's a really good reason why this gathering in Matthew 24:31 cannot be the catching up in 1 Thess 4:17.

But that's gotta be for another thread . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

[WOODHENOT3]

When Jesus comes in Power and Glory, I believe this is the Day of salvation and Deliverance.
Gospel will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations...every eye will see
Jesus when he comes, many will hide, everyone will know he is Jesus(salvation)..as I see it....

[Ready1]

Matthew 24:31
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Scriptures which force me to agree with Mark. Each passage states that God will do the gathering; each of them points to the time of the end; and each of them deals with Israel. Have Fun and read them all!

Eze 11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
Eze 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
Eze 11:18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


Eze 20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
Eze 20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Eze 20:36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 20:37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
Eze 20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 20:39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.
Eze 20:40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
Eze 20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
Eze 20:42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
Eze 20:43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
Eze 20:44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.


Eze 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
Eze 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Eze 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
Eze 34:14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
Eze 34:15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.
Eze 34:17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.
Eze 34:18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?
Eze 34:19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.
Eze 34:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle.
Eze 34:21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;
Eze 34:22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Eze 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.

Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
Joe 2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
Joe 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
Joe 2:19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
Joe 2:20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.

Mic 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.
Mic 2:13 The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them.

Mic 2:12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.
Mic 2:13 The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them.

Zec 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.
Zec 10:7 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD.
Zec 10:8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.
Zec 10:9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.
Zec 10:10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.
Zec 10:11 And he shall pass through the sea with affliction, and shall smite the waves in the sea, and all the deeps of the river shall dry up: and the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the sceptre of Egypt shall depart away.
Zec 10:12 And I will strengthen them in the LORD; and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith the LORD

[WOODHENOT3]

I find this very interesting!
After the elects are gathered, when does the "taken up to meet Jesus in the air" take place ?

[mark s]

Another one to add to the list:

Isaiah 11:10-12
(10) In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples--of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious.
(11) In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.
(12) He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

[mark s]

I find this very interesting!
After the elects are gathered, when does the "taken up to meet Jesus in the air" take place ?

Now that's an excellent question!

In the first gathering in Matt 24:31, He sends His angels to gather the elect. In the second gathering in Matt 25:32, all the nations are gathered before Him, and are separated into the righteous and the unrighteous.

So what about the catching up of the Christians? Let’s look at these two gathering:

That there are righteous amongst the nations that are gathered in 25:32 means that the elect of 24:31 are not all the redeemed.

That there are elect gathered in 24;31 means that the same is true of 25:32.

The "sheep" of Matt 25 are judged according to thier treatment of "Jesus' brothers". This must be a separate group, otherwise it is circular.

The only other separate group are these elect. The elect are not amoung the nations, which are gathered separately.

Some very solid conclusions can be drawn from these things.

Neither of these gatherings can be the rapture. It is a logical impossibility. Paul said, "we who are alive and remain". All the living redeemed at that time will be caught up.

The elect are the Jews. The non-Jews are gathered as the "nations", and judged according to their treatment of "Jesus' brothers".

The "catching up" of the redeemed must occur BEFORE these two gatherings, otherwise, those redeemed would be a part of one of these two gatherings.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[WOODHENOT3]

OK Mark,
so you're saying that the "catching up" of the Christians is before the gatherings and after the signs(moon,stars and sun)?
Perhaps, between the 6th and 7th seal?
Thanks bro :)

[1whowaits]

Mark, as usual i would disagree on neither one of the gatherings of Matt 24 and 25 being the rapture. The gathering of Matt 25 can be the GWTJ for the unrighteous and the judgement seat of Christ for the righteous. It is not circular reasoning to think that rewards will be given based on how we treated the 'least of these brothers', on how we treated other christians, on how we treat each other, jew and gentile, we don't have to be in separate groups from the least of these.

And the gathering of the elect of Matt 24 can very well be the rapture of believers, an event separate from Matt 25 by 1,000 years. The timing of the gathering of Matt 24 is when the sun and moon are darkened, at the time of armageddon and the DOTL. At that time the nation of Israel is in Jerusalem being attacked by all nations and they are rescued by Christ when he sets foot on the mount according to Zech 14. There is no indication that Israel is gathered at the time of armageddon, in fact they are being scattered and taken captive to the nations.

The nation of Israel is regathered after armageddon, not by angels, but by gentiles -'The Lord will execute judgement upon all men, and many will be those slain by the Lord.....I will send some of those who survive to the nations....they will bring all your brothers from the nations to my holy mountain in Jerusalem...on horses, in chariots, and wagons..and I will select some of them to be priests and Levites...'Isa 66. (Ias 66 does appear to be consistent with the millenium -'all mankind will come and bow down before me...')

The nation of Israel does not fit the timing described of the elect in Matt 24, they are not gathered until after armageddon, and they are gathered by gentiles who survive armageddon.

But christians are gathered when Jesus is in the clouds, they meet the Lord in the air, and Jesus does state that He is coming 'like a thief', an apparent reference to His description in Matt 24, when the nations are gathering for armageddon in Rev 16. And Jesus' statements in Rev 16 about being awake and clothed do appear to be directed at those who believe.

And this would be consistent with Jesus' statements in John 6 where he indicatees that He will raise those who believe on the last day, the DOTL, the beginning of which is associated with armageddon in Zech 14 and Joel 3. And Paul does appear to resate this in 2 Thess 2 referring to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and out being gathered to Him in association with the DOTL.

So the catching up of those who believe, both Jew and Gentile, would be consistent with the gathering of the elect in Matt 24, while the gathering of the nation of Israel after the millenium is not, the elect referred to in Matt 24 are not consistent with the nation of Israel.

[1whowaits]

Mark, i think we may differ on what the 'gospel of the kingdom' refers to in Matt 24. My take is that, as the end of days, end of the age, the last day, the end, the day, all refer to the same period of time, the DOTL, the terms kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ, 'the kingdom', all refer to the same thing, the time when God reigns supreme.

There are many aspects to the kingdom but a repeated point is that it is an everlasting kingdom- 'the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed...it will endure forever' Dan 2, 'His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will never pass away, and his kingdom wil never be destroyed..' Dan 7 'His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all will worship and obey him..' Dan 7

The kingdom is set up by God and the kingdom is everlasting, it is not temporary. The millenial kingdom can be considered part of the kingdom but it is not everlasting, the earth is burned and remade, a signifcant number rebell and are destroyed, and the millenium ends. Jesus' rule is eternal but the earthly kingdom is not eternal, the millenial kingdom is not eternal, it is burned and remade, it is temporary.

The everlasting kingdom is the kingdom after the millenium, the kingdom described in Rev 21 and 22. And as God comes to dwell on the earth with men, the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom on earth are merged into one, the everlasting kingdom.

When Jesus refers to the gospel or good news of the kingdom, this is the kingdom i believe He is referring to. And Jesus refers to this kingdom again in the same discourse in Matt 25- 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father: take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.'

The kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world is not the kingdoms of the nations who did not exist at the foundation of the world (and which will be burned up), but the New Jerusalem, the eternal kingdom, and that kingdom does not come until after the millenium. (making Matt 25 more consistent with the GWTJ at the end of the millenium)

This view of the eternal kingdom is consistent with christianity, while the view of the nation of Israel regarding the kingdom is more along the lines of 'restoring the kingdom to Israel' (Acts 1), the Messiah ruling and Israel being the dominant nation, an earthly kingdom, which is what they were looking for when Jesus came 2,000 years ago.

So the gospel of the kingdom mentioned by Jesus in Matt 24 would appear to be what He later describes in Matt 25, the eternal kingdom, which is not the view of the nation of Israel, they are looking for the earthly kingdom, just as they were at Jesus' first coming.

And the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world, and then the end will come, 'the end' being a reference to the DOTL, the end of the days, after the time of distress and the AOD. And there will be christians preaching that gospel right up until the end- 'this calls for the patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus..they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.'Rev 14 (described in the context of the mark of the beast and God's wrath, after the AOD)

The saints who remain faithful to Jesus are Christians, that obey God's commandments including Christ's command of going into all the world and preaching the gospel, and they rest from their labors when they die. So the praching of the kingdom continues up until the time those who believe are removed, when the elect are gathered, when Jesus is in the clouds, when the sun and moon are darkened.

These points along with the other statements by Jesus in Matt 24 and 25- 'you will be hated by all nations because of me (applies to Israel?)', 'one will be taken and the other left' (only half of the nation of Israel will be gathered?), the faithful and wise servant parable refers to the nation of Israel? (Israel is watching for Jesus?), the 10 virgins refers to the nation of Israel or christians?( Israel is watching for Christ?), the parable of the talents refers to the nation of Israel or individual christians?- -all would suggest that Matt 24 is not directed to the nation of Israel but to those who believe, both Jews and Gentiles, the church, Christians.

Therefore the 'elect' of Matt 24 are all those who believe, both Jew and Gentile, who are gathered, not the nation of Israel who are still present on the earth and ungathered when Jesus sets foot on the mount. He will come in the clouds before He sets foot on the earth, 'he will come in the way you have seen Him go, the 'gathering' occurs prior to the rescue of Israel.

[mark s]

OK Mark,
so you're saying that the "catching up" of the Christians is before the gatherings and after the signs(moon,stars and sun)?
Perhaps, between the 6th and 7th seal?
Thanks bro :)

Hi WOODHENOT3,

I'm thinking that the catching up of the Christians is at or about the 6th seal, that all the seals are opened to begin the 70th week, and that the gatherings of the chosen and the nations are at the end of the 70th week.

That's the way that makes the most sense to me.

I think the "innumerable multitude" before the throne in Rev 7 is the raptured church.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

Hi 1whowaits,

When John the Baptist, and Jesus both announce "the kingdom of heaven is at hand", that is, near enough to touch, how does that relate if the kingdom of heaven comes only after the 1000 year kingdom?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[WOODHENOT3]

Mark,
Jesus said this 2000 years ago, the way I see it,
Repent, acknowledge Christ, etc. for the Kingdom of heaven is near,
so, when accepting or acknowledging Christ in your life is like being
admitted to the Kingdom of Heaven....
I could tell many people to come to Christ because Jesus
is coming soon, but no idea when exactly he is coming....get what I
am trying to say?

Love in Christ, Woody

[mark s]

Hi Woody,

What was Peter talking about here?

Acts 3:19-21
(19) Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
(20) and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,
(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Love in Christ,
Mark